BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum

Our BetterMost Community => The Polling Place => Topic started by: David In Indy on October 01, 2007, 05:56:18 pm

Title: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: David In Indy on October 01, 2007, 05:56:18 pm
I just heard a comment on television claiming over 70 percent of Americans support the death penalty. I can't believe this number is so high! I'm interested in finding out how people here on Bettermost feel about the death penalty. I'm interested in finding out not only how American Bettermostians feel about it, but also how our members from other countries feel about execution too. So, I've divided the poll into separate sections for Americans and members from other countries.

Please leave a comment if you want, but it's fine if you'd rather remain anonymous. Personally I am against the death penalty. I always have been and I wish it would be abolished. My home state of Indiana believes in execution. Lethal injection is used in Indiana. The electric chair was used here until the early 1990's. I feel it is cruel and unusual punishment, and capital punishment should be abolished regardless of the method used.

What do you think? 
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Penthesilea on October 01, 2007, 06:40:42 pm
A very clear NO from me!

Can of worms, David, can of worms..... 
But a necessary one!
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: MaineWriter on October 01, 2007, 07:08:38 pm
I am completely opposed to the death penalty and have operationalized that in my life by refusing to live in a death penalty state. Maine is one of 12 states in the US without a death penalty statute; in addition, it is outlawed in the District of Columbia.

It is barbaric and inhumane.

Maybe you should think about moving, David.

L
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Brokeback_Dev on October 01, 2007, 07:59:43 pm
maybe its because i don't know any different because i live in a state that "fries" criminals of awful hateful crimes but i say yes to the death penalty.  I'm sure many would and will disagree with me, but before a dear woman who got away, people thought Ted Bundy was a nice guy, and he was a hateful serial killer. He wasn't a nice guy.  He pleaded for his life in exchange for giving more names of more woman he killed and where their bodies could be found.  i do have mixed emotions about that, since I'm sure the parents of the victim's would have liked to know, but he killed many many woman and they fried his ass. We call the penitentiary where they "fry" these killers Sparky.   I must sat that i do disagree with the celebration that took place outside the prison after he was electrocuted.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 01, 2007, 08:19:31 pm
Absolutely not.

IMO, capital punishment says this to criminals: If you disagree with someone or don't like what they've done, it's OK to kill them. Well, that's what the criminals thought in the first place. Capital punishment is another contribution to the culture of violence.

It is never OK to take another human's life, except in self defense. (This includes many wars, although I realize that in some wars the answers to what constitutes "self defense" becomes very gray and confusing because it might mean defense of an entire country rather than an individual.)

The death penalty has not been shown to have any deterrent effect on crime. It HAS been shown to be racially discriminatory. And it contributes to a culture in which violence is seen as acceptable.

I can't say I feel terribly sorry for some of the killers who get executed. But I do feel sorry for a country or state that believes this is an appropriate punishment.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Shasta542 on October 01, 2007, 08:57:55 pm
What will you do with child rapists---they are not able to be rehabilitated with any guarantees. So---just make them have life with NO possibility for parole? Because I'm not going to trust them around children ever again. And you know--from the news that mothers will sometimes take in a man over the welfare of her children, so you can't always trust the moms to protect the kids.

I'm iffy on the death penalty. I don't think it should be used when there is no DNA, or confession, or eyewitness account, but then you get into the mistaken identity with the eyewitness. It's a dilemma that I go back and forth with at different times.

I definitely don't believe that everyone can be rehabilitated. I think some judges are too lenient with sentencing at times, too.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Lynne on October 01, 2007, 09:08:35 pm
I am opposed to the death penalty for some of the reasons others have mentioned.

It is without question not applied equitably across racial and socioeconomic lines.  I don't think capital punishment deters capital crimes.  And if the goal of the death penalty is to protect society from violent offenders, then that goal can be accomplished by a life sentence without parole just as well.  To me it seems that the death penalty is vengeance, not justice.

And I guess I have an inherent distrust of the 'system.'  I don't think it's worth what I call the moral risk that even ONE innocent person be executed.  There have been many stories - I should go look for articles - of people being freed from prison when new technology can be applied to old evidence, etc.

Some people think that disapproving of the death penalty means that you have more concern for criminals than victims, but I disagree there too.  Capital punishment doesn't bring back the loved ones that people have lost - the criminal dies, sure, but the violence is perpetuated and creates more victims.  Now the family and friends of the criminal have lost a loved one violently too.  I would prefer my tax dollars be spent intervening in the formative years and deterring people from turning to lives of crime - solve the problems of poverty and drugs and treat the mentally ill and you've gone a long way toward eradicating violent crime. 

And who are we, as a society, to ask doctors, wardens, and the scores of other people involved in executions to actually *do* that job?!  That's reprehensible, IMO.

If I die as a victim of a crime, I don't want the perpetrator put to death (and I need to put in my will so my wishes will at least be considered if there is a conviction).
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: David In Indy on October 01, 2007, 10:41:10 pm
Pro Death Penalty Rallies

(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j43/Davidindy/prodeathrally1.jpg)
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j43/Davidindy/prodeathrally.jpg)


Anti Death Penalty Protests

(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j43/Davidindy/antideathpenalty.jpg)
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j43/Davidindy/_1382341_anti_300afp.jpg)


Which U.S. States Support The Death Penalty? Illustrative Maps.

(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j43/Davidindy/map.jpg)

(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j43/Davidindy/deathpenaltymap.jpg)
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j43/Davidindy/dpdescriptor.jpg)


Several Of The Execution Methods Currently Used In The United States

Electric Chair (Old Sparky)
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j43/Davidindy/us_in.electric_chair_1109.jpg)

Lethal Injection Table
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j43/Davidindy/executions.jpg)

Gas Chamber
(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j43/Davidindy/Gaschamber.jpg)







(Images copied from various websites on the Internet.)








Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: David In Indy on October 01, 2007, 10:47:11 pm
I am opposed to the death penalty for some of the reasons others have mentioned.

It is without question not applied equitably across racial and socioeconomic lines.  I don't think capital punishment deters capital crimes.  And if the goal of the death penalty is to protect society from violent offenders, then that goal can be accomplished by a life sentence without parole just as well.  To me it seems that the death penalty is vengeance, not justice.

And I guess I have an inherent distrust of the 'system.'  I don't think it's worth what I call the moral risk that even ONE innocent person be executed.  There have been many stories - I should go look for articles - of people being freed from prison when new technology can be applied to old evidence, etc.

Some people think that disapproving of the death penalty means that you have more concern for criminals than victims, but I disagree there too.  Capital punishment doesn't bring back the loved ones that people have lost - the criminal dies, sure, but the violence is perpetuated and creates more victims.  Now the family and friends of the criminal have lost a loved one violently too.  I would prefer my tax dollars be spent intervening in the formative years and deterring people from turning to lives of crime - solve the problems of poverty and drugs and treat the mentally ill and you've gone a long way toward eradicating violent crime. 

And who are we, as a society, to ask doctors, wardens, and the scores of other people involved in executions to actually *do* that job?!  That's reprehensible, IMO.

If I die as a victim of a crime, I don't want the perpetrator put to death (and I need to put in my will so my wishes will at least be considered if there is a conviction).

I always found it strange that most of the people who support the death penalty also consider themselves Evangelical Christians. I thought one of the most important rules of Christianity was "Thou Shalt Not Kill"?

I feel this is yet another example of "Christians" bending and shaping the rules of their religion to suit their needs.

I fully agree with everything you said Lynne. Thanks for your comments!  :)

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: David In Indy on October 01, 2007, 10:54:34 pm
I am completely opposed to the death penalty and have operationalized that in my life by refusing to live in a death penalty state. Maine is one of 12 states in the US without a death penalty statute; in addition, it is outlawed in the District of Columbia.

It is barbaric and inhumane.

Maybe you should think about moving, David.

L

Not only is Indiana a death penalty state, but Federal executions also take place here. Timothy McVeigh was executed in Terre Haute, Indiana.


(http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j43/Davidindy/TerreHauteFedExecution.jpg)





(Image copied from a website on the Internet)

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Shasta542 on October 01, 2007, 11:00:11 pm
What would you have done with Tim? I'm really asking because I don't know what I'd have done if it had been up to me. Didn't he ask for the death penalty?

And then---maybe whatever you or I would  have done would be entirely different if we'd had a child in the daycare that day. Sometmes it's a matter of perspective.
 
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: David In Indy on October 01, 2007, 11:15:35 pm
What would you have done with Tim? I'm really asking because I don't know what I'd have done if it had been up to me. Didn't he ask for the death penalty?

And then---maybe whatever you or I would  have done would be entirely different if we'd had a child in the daycare that day. Sometmes it's a matter of perspective.
 

I'm not sure how I feel about giving the Death Penalty to someone who asks for it Shasta. Does this suddenly make KILLING someone okay because they asked for it? I don't think so. Killing is killing. I am against the death penalty period. And would I feel differently about it had one of my family members or my child been killed in that awful and dreadful bombing? Maybe. I don't know. I am radically against the death penalty. I've always been against it and I would imagine I will probably always be like this. Timothy McVeigh was an evil man. But what did we accomplish by killing him? It didn't bring back any of those people who died that day. The only thing it accomplished really was to make some people feel better. It satisfied their sense of revenge. I know some people will disagree with me about this, but like I said, I have always felt like this.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Shasta542 on October 01, 2007, 11:32:18 pm
I guess my point is---if it hasn't happened to us, we may not know how we'd react.

I have heard of people asking for the life (to be spared) of someone who killed one of their loved ones, though. Those people are very forgiving. I'd like to think I would be, but I can't say I would. And I kinda doubt it--it would be according to circumstances.

A drunk guy killed my mother (in a car wreck). Today we got in a discussion about forgiveness (some people did; I just listened) at work. I thought about the drunk guy. I can't say that I forgive him; I have NO feeling whatsoever about him. I don't know him, but I don't feel hate or love or any feeling toward him. I wish he hadn't made that bad choice to drive and take a life.

Maybe it's because I don't know him. Don't even know if he's still alive. He got a couple years in prison, tho, and that was a long time ago. I've never felt that he deserved to die, but I think he's a killer just the same. Sometimes I think it's better that I never knew this person.

If someone had -- say -- broken into our house and killed my grandparents --like just for the hell of it--I'm pretty sure I would want that person to get the death penalty.

So, I don't know. I hope none of us ever have to find out how we'd feel in that case.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Shasta542 on October 01, 2007, 11:34:24 pm
Quote
I'm not sure how I feel about giving the Death Penalty to someone who asks for it Shasta. Does this suddenly make KILLING someone okay because they asked for it? I don't think so. Killing is killing.

(OT)

So---am I correct in assuming that you'd be against euthanasia for someone who asks for it?

And abortion of a viable fetus?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 02, 2007, 12:06:15 am
Oh Shasta, that's horrible. I'm so sorry to hear that.

I would like to think that if someone killed a loved one -- a thought so awful I can barely type it -- I wouldn't change my principles. It's true that you never know until you're in that situation, but I have seen parents ask courts not to impose the death penalty on the murderers of their children, and I admired them a lot and hoped I could do the same in their place.

Forgiveness is another matter entirely. I'd have a lot of trouble with that.

On other issues:

-- I would not impose the death penalty on someone who asked for it. The government is not obliged to honor murderers' requests.

-- Child rapists, I'm not sure how I'd handle. Maybe put them away for life. I wouldn't kill them.

-- Euthanasia and abortion are entirely different issues. I don't think I oppose euthanasia for someone who is near the end of life anyway with a fatal disease -- though I'd have to be sure sure sure sure there was no hope of a cure. As for abortion, the question there is not whether one is for or against killing, it's whether one believes the fetus is a full human being. I think I'd be against it for a fully viable fetus.

David, thanks for posting those maps and other info. Shocking how few states oppose it. Did you know that most of the Democratic candidates for president support the death penalty? I think Chris Dodds is the only one who doesn't!   :o   :(  :-\
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Lynne on October 02, 2007, 12:45:39 am
I always found it strange that most of the people who support the death penalty also consider themselves Evangelical Christians. I thought one of the most important rules of Christianity was "Thou Shalt Not Kill"?

I feel this is yet another example of "Christians" bending and shaping the rules of their religion to suit their needs.

I fully agree with everything you said Lynne. Thanks for your comments!  :)

Thank you, David.  Tell you what, there's the same dissonance going on with the death penalty discussion as with the homosexuality discussion in the so-called evangelical Christian movement.  I know I'm oversimplifiying, but the 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' and 'Turn the Other Cheek' doctrines conflict with the 'Eye for an Eye' doctrine.  To my mind, these are the same conflicts that are used to label homosexuality sinful - it's all there with the same verses that explain how slaves and wives shall best be treated and punished for perceived infringments.  I have little use for any of it.  My favorite (ironic-sense) embodiment of these sentiments are those who think it's completely logical to be both pro-life and pro-death penalty.  WTF? :-\ ???  It's one of my many arguments that church and state should never ever meet.

Fundamentalism (as we tend to define it) is just as dangerous in this country's evangelical movements as in any Muslim state.

Nobody thinks that Timothy McVeigh should have blown up the Federal Building in OK City.  He did it on my birthday weekend and it's forever etched in my brain - that whole weekend.  And I'm no scholar of that whole scene, but I read enough at the time to feel at least some degree of empathy for him...the soldier feeling abandoned and alienated by the government he used to hold as inviolate.  He lost the whole basis of his belief structure.  I am definitely not saying there's any excuse for what he did - but there were reasons that make sense if you can look at them from his twisted perspective.  I've never touched mint chocolate chip ice cream again.  And I never will.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 02, 2007, 01:04:18 am
  My favorite (ironic-sense) embodiment of these sentiments are those who think it's completely logical to be both pro-life and pro-death penalty.  WTF? :-\ ??? 

Well, I have to hold to my slavishly ACLU-style adherence to overall principles as opposed to politics and say that, as I mentioned before, I don't think these two issues are comparable. From the pro-life, pro-death (!) position -- one which, as I said, I don't agree with -- I think you might argue that you're pro-life because fetuses are innocent human beings and therefore don't deserve to die, but serial killers have done something terrible and therefore DO deserve to die.

Again, please keep in mind that I don't subscribe to this view, I just think I have to distinguish capital punishment and abortion as two separate issues, because I'm the opposite -- anti-death penalty, pro-choice.

Quote
I've never touched mint chocolate chip ice cream again.  And I never will.

OK, so I'm out of the loop. What's the deal with mint chocolate chip ice cream?

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Lynne on October 02, 2007, 01:11:23 am
Well, I have to hold to my slavishly ACLU-style adherence to overall principles as opposed to politics and say that, as I mentioned before, I don't think these two issues are comparable. From the pro-life, pro-death (!) position -- one which, as I said, I don't agree with -- I think you might argue that you're pro-life because fetuses are innocent human beings and therefore don't deserve to die, but serial killers have done something terrible and therefore DO deserve to die.

Again, please keep in mind that I don't subscribe to this view, I just think I have to distinguish capital punishment and abortion as two separate issues, because I'm the opposite -- anti-death penalty, pro-choice.

I feel you - that's kinda what I was trying to say.  I can understand the arguments they make, but is it 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' or 'Judge Not Lest.'?  Inconsistent, IMO.

Quote
OK, so I'm out of the loop. What's the deal with mint chocolate chip ice cream?

McVeigh's 'last meal' before his execution was mint chocolate chip ice cream.  It's not that I have that much sympathy for him, it's just that I can never forget it - it's always in the back of my brain.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: dot-matrix on October 02, 2007, 01:25:26 am
I am firmly on the fence about the death penalty.  Some criminals commit crimes so heineous that death as a consequence should be a no-brainer.  But our legal system is flawed and innocent people are convicted on circumstancial evidence, and inspite of what legal purists will tell you the presumption of innocence is a dream.  There is no easy answer to this dilemma.

As for abortion, I am firmly pro-choice.  I personally would never ever abort a child, but neither would I force one onto someone who neither wanted it nor was prepared to care for it.  You cannot legislate morality.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 02, 2007, 01:26:57 am
I can understand the arguments they make, but is it 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' or 'Judge Not Lest.'?  Inconsistent, IMO.

Oh, definitely. And "He who is without sin can throw the first electric-chair switch." Clearly, those who most often mention Jesus seem to be the ones who pay the least attention to his viewpoints.

Quote
McVeigh's 'last meal' before his execution was mint chocolate chip ice cream.  It's not that I have that much sympathy for him, it's just that I can never forget it - it's always in the back of my brain.

Oh great, now it's going to be in mine, too.  :-X Luckily, I'm not big on mint chocolate chip. Thank God he didn't order blueberry cheesecake or fudge-ripple mocha!



Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Shasta542 on October 02, 2007, 06:56:28 am
I'm not sure how I feel about giving the Death Penalty to someone who asks for it Shasta. Does this suddenly make KILLING someone okay because they asked for it? I don't think so. Killing is killing.

I was addressing this comment when I asked about euthanasia and abortion. If killing is killing---these are the SAME matter as the death penalty.

As for the death penalty, I am like dot-matrix on the issue. ( I think you are saying it's a case by case issue with you, dot-matrix)...according to the circumstances?

I believe the guy who kidnapped that little girl, sexually assaulted her, kept her in the closet for awhile, and buried her with her teddy bear--deserves to die. He had her long enough to think about it and let her go, but he killed her. The problem comes when someone thinks that he should have mercy because he had a bad childhood or something. I'm sorry for people who had a bad childhood, but it's  no excuse to me. If you do something like that, you have to be accountable to whatever the justice system has declared.

And as to innocent people being sentenced to death--that's why there has to be no doubt when the death penalty is imposed. DNA, confession, etc. I have never understood how they convicted the guy who killed his pregnant wife and dumped her in the lake. I think he's guilty, but the whole case seemed to be circumstantial. I expected him to get life in prison with no possibility for parole.


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Penthesilea on October 02, 2007, 08:07:18 am
I believe the guy who kidnapped that little girl, sexually assaulted her, kept her in the closet for awhile, and buried her with her teddy bear--deserves to die.

So you're not on the fence about the question pro or con death penalty. You're clearly pro death penalty. Limited to certain crimes probably, but clearly pro.

Quote
The problem comes when someone thinks that he should have mercy because he had a bad childhood or something. I'm sorry for people who had a bad childhood, but it's  no excuse to me. If you do something like that, you have to be accountable to whatever the justice system has declared.


A bad childhood is not an exuse, by no means, and of course everybody who does something like that must be accountable. But not with death penalty. And to be honest, I'm tired of hearing this argument again and again. Never have I read or heard anybody say that a delinquent should get away with his crime because he had a traumatic childhood. To not impose death penalty does not mean to let a delinquent off the hook. Simple as that.

Quote
And as to innocent people being sentenced to death--that's why there has to be no doubt when the death penalty is imposed. DNA, confession, etc.

Tell you what: Every judge, every jury who has ever imposed a death sentence has been sure with no doubt. Some decades ago fingerprints were thought to be a proof that leaves no doubt. Today some people think so of DNA traces. But that's not true. Even DNA analysis is only positive to an percantage of 98% - 99%. This would mean of 100 delinquents killed by death penalty only on the proof of DNA analysis, one or two would be innocent! Of course this number is theoretical, because normally there is other evidence as well in a trial. Therefore the actual number would be smaller, but existing nonetheless.
Confessions: they can be wrong, too. Even if they're not blackmailed with torture.

To make it short: there is no such thing as 100% guarantee that no person would be killed innocently as long as death penalty exists. Everybody who is pro death penalty accepts that innocent people are killed period.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Shasta542 on October 02, 2007, 08:12:54 am
Quote
Everybody who is pro death penalty accepts that innocent people are killed period.

Everybody--not just death penalty proponents--needs to accept that innocent people are killed every day because it's a fact of life.

The civilian people in the war zone are innocent.

Viable fetuses are innocent.

The victims of drive-bys are innocent.

Abused children who are beaten to death are innocent.

Innocents are killed every day, everywhere.


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Penthesilea on October 02, 2007, 08:34:51 am
Everybody--not just death penalty proponents--needs to accept that innocent people are killed every day because it's a fact of life.

The civilian people in the war zone are innocent.

Viable fetuses are innocent.

The victims of drive-bys are innocent.

Abused children who are beaten to death are innocent.

Innocents are killed every day, everywhere.




Facts of life, true.

But the difference to death penalty is that the state knowingly kills innocent people in the name of justice! How perverse is that?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 02, 2007, 09:29:57 am
I'm sorry for people who had a bad childhood, but it's  no excuse to me. If you do something like that, you have to be accountable to whatever the justice system has declared.

Opposition to the death penalty has absolutely nothing to do with feeling lenient toward the criminal because of his circumstances. It has to do with the death penalty being wrong.

Quote
And as to innocent people being sentenced to death--that's why there has to be no doubt when the death penalty is imposed.

Like Chrissi, I don't believe there is any way to be 100 percent certain in 100 percent of cases.

Quote
The civilian people in the war zone are innocent.

And that's why we shouldn't go to war, either -- except if there is strong reason to believe more lives can be saved by doing so. (Clearly that has not been the case in Iraq.)

Quote
The victims of drive-bys are innocent.

Abused children who are beaten to death are innocent.

Just because murderers kill people doesn't make it OK for the government to do so. In fact, my belief is that the government's killing people creates a culture in which more citizens kill people.




Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Pipedream on October 02, 2007, 10:18:11 am
I strictly oppose death penalty because I consider it a barbaric relic from the middle ages. In our times, I think, there should be other means to deal with delinquents. Besides, too many innocent people have been killed in the past in the name of justice, be it out of human error or political calculation.
Sure, there are criminals who we might think would deserve a cruel fate for what they've done. But can we always be 100 % certain? I think not. Humans are prone to make mistakes and are sometimes susceptible to corruption. That and my sense of humanity tell me that modern countries should steer clear of capital punishment.

Just my opinion. I haven't read the whole thread, though, so sorry if all this has been said already.

 :)
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: belbbmfan on October 02, 2007, 11:00:24 am
I agree Anke.

The trial of Hans Van Themsche started today in Antwerp. He's a 19 year old who shot and killed a Malines woman and a Belgian 2 year old toddler she was babysitting. He shot her at point blank as she was talking a walk with baby Luna. He shot her because she was black. He then shot Luna because she didn't stop crying. He'd shot a Turkish woman before who was sitting on a bench reading a book. She survived. Luckily his killing spree was stopped by a police officer who shot him.

Hans Van Themsche wanted to kill himself and hoped the police would shoot him. He wanted to take as much 'foreigners' with him as possible. He blames it on a bad youth. In his farewell letter to his family he wrote that 'he died in action' should be put on his grave.

I'm shaking writing this down. It's just unbelievalbe that people would commit such crimes.


As much as I cannot even begin to comprehend why he did what he did, I still think that killing him wouldn't solve anything. And that justice wouldn't be served.

http://www.flandersnews.be/cm/flandersnews.be/News/071001_van_Themsche (http://www.flandersnews.be/cm/flandersnews.be/News/071001_van_Themsche)
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Brokeback_Dev on October 02, 2007, 11:12:59 am
so I say what about the countries that still hang people for the crimes they commit as they did Saddam Hussain?   It was a horrifying thing to see, but thats how they did to him.  What about when they chop off the heads of criminals for the crimes they commit, or the countless other cruel and unusual punishments?  There's all kinds of inhumane penalties in other countries.  What are we to say?  We are much more civilized?  Is it civilized to take someones life, Kill your parents, rap a baby, torture someone, blow up a building?

I once new a man who killed a woman's husband with a kitchen butcher knife and rapped her 12 yr old daughter.  He didnt get the death penalty because the wife wanted him to rot in prison for the rest of his life as his punishment.  I must admit  for sure prison is an awful place to live out your days, but there is a society to live in in prison.  You just conform to that sick norm, but you live. IDK In this state 25 years is considered a life sentence.  There have been cases of sexual offenders, murders and what not who get out and commit the same crime.  Prison does not provide rehabilitation to these criminals..

As for abortion, i believe it is murder, which is exactly the case in partial birth abortions, but i dont disagree with a woman's right to choose, except partial birth abortions.   If you want to know what that is google it.  And my beliefs have nothing to do with religion and state.  I dont agree with religion and the government is fucked up. 
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: moremojo on October 02, 2007, 01:46:42 pm
I'm with you, David. I too am an American citizen, resident in the State of Texas, which has been my home state from birth. Texas leads the country in the number of inmates it puts to death, a mark of great shame, in my opinion, upon my home state. Execution is cruel and unusual punishment, no question about it, and as such, is clearly unconstitutional.

Furthermore, state-sanctioned killing poisons and morally compromises the society that practices it. Read Friedrich Dürrenmatt's play Der Besuch der alten Dame for a great literary illustration of this reality. No truly enlightened society can pursue or endorse execution as a legitimate means of punishment.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on October 02, 2007, 04:36:58 pm
        Well here I am on the opposite side of the fence again.  Oh well here I go. 
     I think sometimes we need to thin the herd as I have  heard it said.  We have these horrible
mean and grewsome people.  The kind like Charles Manson, John Wayne Gayce, and others of their kind that are in the society.  If we just put them in prison for life.  They are still a dredge on the society.  They are often given conjugal rights, begat children who are then placed on the rolls of the state, and may then carry on the legacy of an unfortunate life.
     We had such a case here in oregon. A man that was the son of a man on death row, killed and tortured several young teenaged girls...He deserves to die..in my opinion..He was so cold blooded that he murdered one young girl, and put her in a small refrigerator in his kitchen, and continued to make meals, and have friends over just the same as nothing was amiss.  He then took her out and put her in a cardboard box in the back corner of his lot, and left her there with the rest of his garbage to be burned. 
      I dont feel that ridding society of those types of people...Is cruel or barbaric.  I think it is plain good sense.  You dont rehabilitate that kind of behavior from a person..In spite of all the forward movements in helping folks with mental issues.
      I dont think it should be used very often, and not routinely for sure.....I think there are very few people that fit into these kinds of territory.  But if we do find them...Like the Greenriver Killer..He murdered over 40 young women.
We should give them no quarter..They deserve the same choices they gave their victims...
      Ok im done...except to say...I used to be on the other side.  When I was younger I didnt think it was good to have a death penalty...However time has shown me, in some unique cases its required.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: moremojo on October 02, 2007, 04:55:39 pm
Janice, I think your post naturally segues into the question: Is killing ever justified, or necessary? I think the dark truth for the vast majority of us is...Yes, at least sometimes. A truly defensive war is one example that comes quickly to mind. Imagine if the world had not stood up to Hitler and his insanely cruel rush to dominate humanity. That kind of evil had to be met with the only kind of power a man like Hitler understood and respected: brute force. I also imagine how a non-violent pacifist such as myself would respond in the moment to being mugged or violated in some way...although it would go against my better nature, I could imagine the animal inside of me springing to life and fighting in panic for safety, even perhaps to the point of death. I think those among us who truly submit to their ideals even at the expense of their own lives are those that we call saints.

I still see an important distinction between these examples and willfully, premeditatedly killing a person in the name of the state. The state has a responsibility to its citizens, and one responsibility is setting an example for a nobler life. A truly enlightened society will foster life and dissuade from violence, and execution is ultimately always needless and preventable violence.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: dot-matrix on October 02, 2007, 11:06:52 pm
        Well here I am on the opposite side of the fence again.  Oh well here I go. 
     I think sometimes we need to thin the heard as I have  heard it said.  We have these horrible
mean and grewsome people.  The kind like Charles Manson, John Wayne Gayce, and others of their kind that are in the society.  If we just put them in prison for life.  They are still a dredge on the society.  They are often given conjugal rights, begat children who are then placed on the rolls of the state, and may then carry on the legacy of an unfortunate life.
     We had such a case here in oregon. A man that was the son of a man on death row, killed and tortured several young teenaged girls...He deserves to die..in my opinion..He was so cold blooded that he murdered one young girl, and put her in a small refrigerator in his kitchen, and continued to make meals, and have friends over just the same as nothing was amiss.  He then took her out and put her in a cardboard box in the back corner of his lot, and left her there with the rest of his garbage to be burned. 
      I dont feel that ridding society of those types of people...Is cruel or barbaric.  I think it is plain good sense.  You dont rehabilitate that kind of behavior from a person..In spite of all the forward movements in helping folks with mental issues.
      I dont think it should be used very often, and not routinely for sure.....I think there are very few people that fit into these kinds of territory.  But if we do find them...Like the Greenriver Killer..He murdered over 40 young women.
We should give them no quarter..They deserve the same choices they gave their victims...
      Ok im done...except to say...I used to be on the other side.  When I was younger I didnt think it was good to have a death penalty...However time has shown me, in some unique cases its required.


well you are not totally alone Janice, some of the points you raise are some of the very concerns that keep me on the fence  :-\
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Ellemeno on October 03, 2007, 05:48:54 am
Of course not.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Kerry on October 03, 2007, 09:23:55 am

We don't have the death penalty here in Australia. I am not in favour of the death penalty myself.

"Two wrongs don't make a right."

However, having said that, I'm not sure how I'd react if a loved one of mine was abducted, imprisoned, tortured, murdered, cannibalised and had their body parts used as trophies by a serial killer (which is what Jeffrey Dahmer did to his victims).

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: moremojo on October 03, 2007, 10:03:23 am
This is gonna sound weird to a lot of people, but the victims of a serial killer are, according to my belief, in a place of peace and love, however horrific the gateway to that place proved to be. The killer was terribly wrong to have acted as he did (he erred against Love), but the One Who IS takes care of all His children.

The killer is still here with the rest of us upon this compromised earth. However hateful he is, however difficult it is to do so, he is as deserving of love as the rest of us. If we can find it in our hearts to embrace the Dahmers and Gacys among us, we are expressing a spiritual gift of the very highest order. We reveal the angels clothed within our human skins.

By killing the Dahmers and Gacys in vengeance, we too err against Love, against the One Who IS. And we will have to account for our actions in the fullness of Eternity.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: moremojo on October 05, 2007, 11:20:34 am
Your sentiment is understandable, Susie, and many would share it (I intimated a similar capacity within myself in this thread, in regard to being victimized myself [I am not a parent]). But at the risk of seeming facetious or unfeeling, I think it's important to be consistent on these things. Remember, the people who were the victims of the murderer on death row (the person whose life you and I claim to seek to preserve) were someone else's children.

I am not a Christian, but I think that Jesus showed by his example that it is better to be killed than it is to kill.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Rayn on October 08, 2007, 12:37:01 pm
As a Christian, I didn't support it because I was taught to "Love your enemies."   Currently, though I don't make a very good one, I'm trying to follow the teachings of Buddha too; so I follow a Unitarian Universalist path and cannot support the Death Penalty.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Karan13 on October 18, 2007, 05:26:43 pm
Hey There,
               I must admit i support the Death Penalty , as you know i`m in Birmingham {second city } England , and we do not have the death penalty  at all . I was bought up in the Catholic Faith and when old enough found ` My Own Beliefs` to cion a phrase a don`t hate or turn against my faith but i have free will and question parts of it ` Thou Shall Not Kill ` is one of the ten commandments , but i disagree.
If a human being has caused such hurt , suffering , mental , physical torture , is beyond reason and empathy has killed again and again then they cannot be rehabilatated and should have their life taken for the lives they have destroyed.
I do add that this should be carried out in the most serious of crimes , especialy those occured on numerous occasions. Many child sexual abusers admit if released they will re offend , they have been released and placed back in society usually close to schools , and not always , but on numerous occasions re offended , parents live in fear as they hear rumours that they are in the area , but these people cannot be named. The victim can but not the abuser, this i hate and dissagree with. If i lived in a place where i knew people were being executed i don`t know where i would stand , but as it is i think our country needs it . The prisons are dangerously overcrowded and i feel stupid old fat cat judges in their wigs , with their old fashioned ways make the victims the guilty party, and release known crimminals back into society as they don`t know where to put them , or cannot `Find` anywhere  to put them it is a joke .
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on October 18, 2007, 06:02:30 pm



        I must clarify my position..   I dont hate these people.  As Shasta said, I have no emotional feelings toward
them whatsoever.  I dont think we should do it as a form of vengeance..I dont believe in vengeance. 
        I think we need to do it for the reasons of safety, and care for individuals and society as a whole.  There
are actually people that are so tainted and polluted in themselves, that there is no chance for rehabilitation orfor
them doing anything of benefit for society.  They are, and i realize this is a bad simili, a bad apple...They need
to be gotten rid of so they wont spoil* the bunch any longer...
        One thing I am not, is vindictive.  I dont believe I have ever done a vindictive thing in my life...But you
know; if one of these people that had been allowed to return to society, would then hurt the ones I love.
I would probably do it for the first time.  If i had the chance...I am sorry I am not angelec enough for that...
If that makes me a barbarian, then I will own it...

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 18, 2007, 06:52:19 pm
I would feel perfectly justified in killing someone who is an immediate threat to my own life or the lives of others -- for example, someone attacking my children. I also think it's OK to kill someone who's helping to kill others -- for example, not only someone who is sending Jews to death camps, but also someone fighting on behalf of someone who's sending Jews to death camps. Some wars -- not all, obviously -- are necessary, in my book.

But those are the only times I feel killing is OK.

I would like to think that, on principle, I would oppose the death penalty even for someone who had killed a loved one of mine. But perhaps I wouldn't. That's human nature. We're influenced by our emotions. But sometimes the purpose of laws is to control emotions and the baser impulses of human nature.

What about people who seem irredeemably evil? Put them away forever, I guess. It's not our job to kill them. Killing is wrong whether it's done by John Wayne Gacy or the state of Texas.



Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Shasta542 on October 18, 2007, 08:13:00 pm
OK-- you would kill them if they were attacking your family, but not if they killed your family?? I'm asking.  
Quote
Killing is wrong whether it's done by John Wayne Gacy or the state of Texas.


Did you mean it's wrong EXCEPT when they are attacking your family?

I think I would, too. But I would decide according to the situation on the death penalty. I might be for it in some cases.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: David In Indy on October 18, 2007, 09:25:33 pm
I've often wondered if my feelings towards the death penalty would somehow change if a member of my family or a friend was murdered. I'd like to think that I would continue to oppose it. I don't think any of us really know the answer, and thank God most of us will never have to find out.

Somebody addressed the issue of self defense. We had a case here in Indiana several years ago and it was a real eye opener. At least it was for me. A man noticed his neighbor being robbed at gunpoint. The thief was yelling things which clearly indicated he fully intended to kill his victim. The neighbor sneeked up from behind and shot the thief in the back and he later died of his injuries. However, the police discovered the thief was using a toy gun during the robbery. So, the victim was never in REAL danger; at least not in danger from a gun. The case went to court and the man was convicted of manslaughter. Was it a fair conviction? I'm not sure. The robber was obviously committing a crime, but did he deserve to die for it? On the otherhand, he was asking for all sorts of trouble when he made the decision to use a toy gun during his robberies.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 18, 2007, 09:28:36 pm
OK-- you would kill them if they were attacking your family, but not if they killed your family?? I'm asking.  
Did you mean it's wrong EXCEPT when they are attacking your family?

Yes, I would kill someone who was about to kill my child in order to keep that from happening. I -- on principle, anyway -- would not be in favor of killing someone who had already killed my child, thus too late to prevent it from happening.

And this doesn't apply just to my family, of course; it applies to everyone.

This is horrible even to discuss, but I hope the distinction is clear. In other words, murder is wrong when it's not for the purpose of preventing another murder.



Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 18, 2007, 11:54:41 pm

For the death penalty for certain crimes.

Some people are too dangerous to be let out in society, their crimes too heinous, their conscience and remorse completely absent.  Society is better off without them and there are better things to spend my tax dollars on than keeping them in room and board the rest of their lives.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 19, 2007, 12:57:30 am
Society is better off without them and there are better things to spend my tax dollars on than keeping them in room and board the rest of their lives.

Execution costs more than life imprisonment.

http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html (http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html)

Quote
A Duke University study found... "The death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million per execution over the costs of a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of imprisonment for life." ( The costs of processing murder cases in North Carolina / Philip J. Cook, Donna B. Slawson ; with the assistance of Lori A. Gries. [Durham, NC] : Terry Sanford Institute of Public Policy, Duke University, 1993.)

"The death penalty costs California $90 million annually beyond the ordinary costs of the justice system - $78 million of that total is incurred at the trial level." (Sacramento Bee, March 18, 1988).

"A 1991 study of the Texas criminal justice system estimated the cost of appealing capital murder at $2,316,655. In contrast, the cost of housing a prisoner in a Texas maximum security prison single cell for 40 years is estimated at $750,000." (Punishment and the Death Penalty, edited by Robert M. Baird and Stuart E. Rosenbaum 1995 p.109 )

"Florida spent an estimated $57 million on the death penalty from 1973 to 1988 to achieve 18 executions - that is an average of $3.2 million per execution."
(Miami Herald, July 10, 1988).

"Florida calculated that each execution there costs some $3.18 million. If incarceration is estimated to cost $17000/year, a comparable statistic for life in prison of 40 years would be $680,000."
(The Geography of Execution... The Capital Punishment Quagmire in America, Keith Harries and Derral Cheatwood 1997 p.6)

Figures from the General Accounting Office are close to these results. Total annual costs for all U.S. Prisons, State and Federal, was $17.7 billion in 1994 along with a total prison population of 1.1 million inmates. That amounts to $16100 per inmate/year.
(GOA report and testimony FY-97 GGD-97-15 )
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 19, 2007, 01:15:46 am
Execution costs more than life imprisonment.

http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html (http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html)


It depends on how old the criminal is.  If he's an older man, it's more expensive to execute him.  If he's a younger man and liable to live for 60+ years, then it's not.

Plus, it isn't about the expense.  There are starving people who have done nothing wrong whatsoever who deserve my tax dollars more than some sociopath who is never going to reform.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: injest on October 19, 2007, 01:24:21 am
One thing that is never brought up in this debate is the executioner. I would not want anyone I know to be the executioner. It has to be a hard thing to live with...I would HOPE it would be a hard thing to live with.

No life should end without some regret...even if the only regret is the person who is dying wasted his chances.

 :-\

I think a lot about this when I hear people talking about torture...all the focus is on the person tortured...but I can't imagine being married to a man that would/could leash a naked man and torture him and then come home and play with the kids....EE!
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 19, 2007, 08:23:59 am
It depends on how old the criminal is.  If he's an older man, it's more expensive to execute him.  If he's a younger man and liable to live for 60+ years, then it's not.

Well, again, studies indicate otherwise. To requote a couple of excerpts from the material I already quoted above:

Quote
"A 1991 study of the Texas criminal justice system estimated the cost of appealing capital murder at $2,316,655. In contrast, the cost of housing a prisoner in a Texas maximum security prison single cell for 40 years is estimated at $750,000." (Punishment and the Death Penalty, edited by Robert M. Baird and Stuart E. Rosenbaum 1995 p.109 )

"Florida calculated that each execution there costs some $3.18 million. If incarceration is estimated to cost $17000/year, a comparable statistic for life in prison of 40 years would be $680,000."
(The Geography of Execution... The Capital Punishment Quagmire in America, Keith Harries and Derral Cheatwood 1997 p.6)

They're talking about 40 years, not 60. But do the math -- assuming these studies are correct (and I grabbed this quickly off the internet, but there was plenty to choose from offering the same conclusion), 60 years of incarceration does not cost more than execution.

Quote
Plus, it isn't about the expense.  There are starving people who have done nothing wrong whatsoever who deserve my tax dollars more than some sociopath who is never going to reform.

Of course they do. Yet by paying for an execution, you're spending more of your tax dollars and have less left over to give to the starving people.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 19, 2007, 08:42:55 am
Well, again, studies indicate otherwise. To requote a couple of excerpts from the material I already quoted above:

They're talking about 40 years, not 60. But do the math -- assuming these studies are correct (and I grabbed this quickly off the internet, but there was plenty to choose from offering the same conclusion), 60 years of incarceration does not cost more than execution.

The study is over 16 years old now.  Considering health care fo inmates as they get older gets exponentially more expensive, the economy has not gotten better and technology has advanced, I would like to see a newer study.

Quote
Of course they do. Yet by paying for an execution, you're spending more of your tax dollars and have less left over to give to the starving people.

Not really.  The less people to guard less people on death row means less overhead for the penal system and thus...[shrug] my focus as a taxpayers can be on social services and not providing room, board, health services, entertainment, conjugal visits what have you for convicted murderers.

Also, they have been permanently taken out of society and will never be a threat to anyone else.  Yes, accidents do happen.  Serial killers, rapists and child molesters do accidentally get released from prison.  The death sentence puts that possibility to rest.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: souxi on October 19, 2007, 08:58:32 am
For peadohphiles yes. I don,t care about "research shows this" and "studies show that", the only fit place for a peadophile is a hole in the ground, preferably a cesspit. If anyone hurt my children I,d happily do it myself, np atall.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: moremojo on October 19, 2007, 09:24:42 am
All I can is I'm saddened and sickened by the bloodlust that some members here are displaying towards their fellow human beings. Those who would gleefully seek the violent deaths of some members of society deemed criminal or immoral by that society are no better from a moral viewpoint than the objects of their homicidal loathing.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 19, 2007, 10:11:39 am
The study is over 16 years old now.  Considering health care fo inmates as they get older gets exponentially more expensive, the economy has not gotten better and technology has advanced, I would like to see a newer study.

Well, there's only so much research I'm willing to do to support a post on a message board (even at BetterMost!), but here's what I found in two minutes of googling the terms "cost execution imprisonment 2005" (figuring 2005 might be the most recent stats available):

Quote
2005 Los Angeles Times  Study Finds California Spends $250 Million per Execution

Key Points

# The California death penalty system costs taxpayers more than $114 million a year beyond the cost of simply keeping the convicts locked up for life. (This figure does not take into account additional court costs for post-conviction hearings in state and federal courts, estimated to exceed several million dollars.):

Quote
Not really.  The less people to guard less people on death row means less overhead for the penal system and thus...[shrug] my focus as a taxpayers can be on social services and not providing room, board, health services, entertainment, conjugal visits what have you for convicted murderers.

I don't know what this means, or how it contradicts what I said. If executions cost more than imprisonments, then executing people means fewer tax dollars left over for social services. Period. No doubt it is galling to see one's tax dollars being spent to support murderers, and maybe you'd rather spend your money killing them. But what matters is the total cost. The government doesn't have a single fund that either goes to prisoners or poor people. It has one big pot that is divided up in a lot of different ways: schools, roads, law enforcement, etc. Spending less on one thing means more available for all of the others (or lower taxes).

Quote
Also, they have been permanently taken out of society and will never be a threat to anyone else.  Yes, accidents do happen.  Serial killers, rapists and child molesters do accidentally get released from prison.  The death sentence puts that possibility to rest.

And innocent people do accidentally get executed. Eliminating capital punishment puts that possibility to rest.

All I can is I'm saddened and sickened by the bloodlust that some members here are displaying towards their fellow human beings. Those who would gleefully seek the violent deaths of some members of society deemed criminal or immoral by that society are no better from a moral viewpoint than the objects of their homicidal loathing.

Scott, I'm obviously anti death penalty, but this strikes me as harsh. To want someone who has committed a horrible crime to pay in a similarly horrible way is, I think, perfectly understandable human nature. Yes, the law should be rational, and restrict those baser impulses. But I do not morally equate them with whatever impulse leads to torturing or murdering innocents.

And let's face it, to characterize people who are executed as "members of society deemed criminal or immoral by that society" is unrealistically mild. We're talking, as previous pro-death-penalty posters have said, about people who torture children to death and so on. Yeah, I'd deem that pretty darn immoral.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: moremojo on October 19, 2007, 10:35:05 am
Katherine, your invocation of the words "baser impulses" says it all. Yes, it is understandable to have a reaction of fear, loathing, and violence to that which inspires fear and loathing. But this is not a morally superior stance in relation to that which inspired the feelings. I stand by my assertion that it is equally immoral to seek to harm another human being, even a human being who beforehand has harmed yet others.

There seems to be a perennial human impulse to scapegoat people, render them less than human, and treat them accordingly. In Nero's Rome, it was the Christians; in late Ottoman Turkey, it was the Armenians; in Nazi Germany, it was the Jews. At this contemporary juncture of history, people deemed to be "terrorists" or "pedophiles" are especially vulnerable to this kind of treatment. But I posit that people labelled "terrorists" or "pedophiles" (or what have you) are just as human as everyone else, and do not deserve to be viciously attacked and murdered, all in the name of moral righteousness. Jesus said to notice the beam in one's own eye before decrying the mote in your neighbor's.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: souxi on October 19, 2007, 10:46:47 am
All I can is I'm saddened and sickened by the bloodlust that some members here are displaying towards their fellow human beings. Those who would gleefully seek the violent deaths of some members of society deemed criminal or immoral by that society are no better from a moral viewpoint than the objects of their homicidal loathing.

As far as I,m concerned, a peadophile has forfitied the right to be classed as a human being. So if that makes me guilty of displaying "bloodlust" then I,m quite happy to be guilty thanks.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: souxi on October 19, 2007, 10:56:59 am
This was a famous case in the UK some years ago. Read this and try and convince me the bastard who did this was human.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/465986.stm
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: moremojo on October 19, 2007, 11:16:08 am
The behavior of Cooke and his cohorts was reprehensible, and society certainly has a responsibility to protect itself from such people. But of course they were/are human--so was Hitler, so was Pol Pot, so was Stalin. The term 'humanity' doesn't just encompass those things within our species that we like--it also includes those things that disturb us or can even destroy us. By recognizing these elements as being real, and acknowledging their perpetrators as human beings rather than folklore-level bogeymen, we can protect ourselves better and cultivate the more enlightened world that progressives and liberals supposedly endorse.

As inflammatory as it may sound, even though I understand the impulse to punish someone like Cooke, if that punishment entails violence worthy of a lynch mob, than the punisher becomes, in my eyes, no better than Cooke.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: loneleeb3 on October 19, 2007, 12:04:44 pm
Here's a shock, I'm for it.
Until you have a family member that has been brutally murdered you can't know what it's like and I have had 2.
I think it's a load of crap that these people should be sent to prison for life or less. They sit in an institution where they get fed, healthcare and cable TV. They get a facility to work out they get to continue their education if they so choose and they are alive. What happens to the victim? They rot in a grave. Their familes are devastated and never recover. I'm not saying prison is a picnic but it sure beats rotting in a grave never having to opportunity to live your life to it's fullest extent. Prisoners get to have family visits and in come cases conjical visits. Victims families get to go to a grave.
These people made a choice to murder another human being. They stole the most precious gift someone has which is their life. They destroy families and the schock waves extend far outside of the family.
The punishment should fit the crime and I don't even thin lethal injection does that.
Their death should be painful and hard just like what they inflicted on their victims. Then the punishment would fit the crime.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: souxi on October 19, 2007, 12:17:40 pm
Here's a shock, I'm for it.
Until you have a family member that has been brutally murdered you can't know what it's like and I have had 2.
I think it's a load of crap that these people should be sent to prison for life or less. They sit in an institution where they get fed, healthcare and cable TV. They get a facility to work out they get to continue their education if they so choose and they are alive. What happens to the victim? They rot in a grave. Their familes are devastated and never recover. I'm not saying prison is a picnic but it sure beats rotting in a grave never having to opportunity to live your life to it's fullest extent. Prisoners get to have family visits and in come cases conjical visits. Victims families get to go to a grave.
These people made a choice to murder another human being. They stole the most precious gift someone has which is their life. They destroy families and the schock waves extend far outside of the family.
The punishment should fit the crime and I don't even thin lethal injection does that.
Their death should be painful and hard just like what they inflicted on their victims. Then the punishment would fit the crime.


Here here. Well said, I completly agree with you.
(http://bestsmileys.com/clapping/2.gif)      (http://bestsmileys.com/clapping/2.gif)      (http://bestsmileys.com/clapping/2.gif)     (http://bestsmileys.com/clapping/2.gif)
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: moremojo on October 19, 2007, 01:42:47 pm
Richard, I am very sorry to learn of your tragic losses. You do have the capacity to speak from experience on this issue rather than the abstract angle from which those like myself approach it.

But I must still respectfully disagree with your stance. One way of reasoning out my argument could go like this...with every execution, the executioner arguably becomes a murderer in turn--he/she certainly becomes a killer, with all the moral anxieties that that term should invoke. Where does the cycle end? It can only logically end when the state no longer forces people into this position.

And I cannot condone the sadism, however latent it might be, in the attitudes I am reading of in this thread. Gleefully killing a gleeful killer makes one in turn a gleeful killer. Where is the morality or honor in that? I know I am setting myself up here for potential enmity or reproach, but I feel it is my responsibility as a citizen and a human being to acknowledge my observation, however inflammatory it may be, and to condemn it.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: loneleeb3 on October 19, 2007, 01:56:07 pm
Richard, I am very sorry to learn of your tragic losses. You do have the capacity to speak from experience on this issue rather than the abstract angle from which those like myself approach it.

But I must still respectfully disagree with your stance. One way of reasoning out my argument could go like this...with every execution, the executioner arguably becomes a murderer in turn--he/she certainly becomes a killer, with all the moral anxieties that that term should invoke. Where does the cycle end? It can only logically end when the state no longer forces people into this position.

And I cannot condone the sadism, however latent it might be, in the attitudes I am reading of in this thread. Gleefully killing a gleeful killer makes one in turn a gleeful killer. Where is the morality or honor in that? I know I am setting myself up here for potential enmity or reproach, but I feel it is my responsibility as a citizen and a human being to acknowledge my observation, however inflammatory it may be, and to condemn it.
Scott,  ;D
Feel free to disagree with me anytime!  ;D
If we all shared the same opinion it would be a very boring world!!
In respose, I myself find no glee in the carrying out of that punishment. It is a sad situation for the family of the beast who comitted the murder. His mother still loves him, his children still need him. However, he made a choice to commit a heinous crime. The punishment for said crime is death. An executioner carrying out a sentance mandated by our courts is not a killer.
He is doing his job. The criminal is the one whom the sentance is being carried out upon. There are consequences to actions, I learned that very early on. These monsters either didn't learn that or don't care.
Housing them feeding them and taking care of them is not justice.
here is the definition of Justice
jus·tice (jsts)
n.
1. The quality of being just; fairness.
2.
a. The principle of moral rightness; equity.
b. Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness.
3.
a. The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.
b. Law The administration and procedure of law.
4. Conformity to truth, fact, or sound reason

Is it fair to the victim and theie family if the muderer of their loved one gets to live out their life in an institution where there every need is met? Is it morally right for that same situation to take place.
We have good decent people barely getting by in society who would love three hot meals a day, a hot shower, a bed to sleep on at night, cable TV and other amenities. Why should our tax dollars got to provide that for animals who kill our family members? What have they done to deserve that? I would much rather my tax dollars go for that then to house a killer.
I'd rather people make the right decisions and take resposibility for their own lives but if tax dollars have to be spent I'd rather them be spent on the poor and needy than murderers!
To say they are in prison and it's a horrible place is true but to be on the street or in a delapitated house with no electricity, food or comfort is worse because those people didn't break the law to be in their situation.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 19, 2007, 02:46:17 pm
The term 'humanity' doesn't just encompass those things within our species that we like--it also includes those things that disturb us or can even destroy us. By recognizing these elements as being real, and acknowledging their perpetrators as human beings rather than folklore-level bogeymen, we can protect ourselves better and cultivate the more enlightened world that progressives and liberals supposedly endorse.


This makes absolutely no sense to me, sorry; not trying to be rude. The death penalty is NOT about bad people who "disturb us or can destroy us". People on death row have ALREADY done the murder. Treating would-be murderers in ways to avoid future crime is a noble and good idea on which millions of dollars are spent every year attempting to accomplish, so if that is what you are getting at, I would agree.

but the notion that somehow we protect ourselves better by treating hardened killers with kid gloves is to me the opposite of enlightened...it's burying one's head in the sand.

I actually am not so much in favor of the death penalty, not because I think those who get it do not deserve it. They do. However, I do not like the effect it has on society in that it continues to validate reasons to take a life, such as with abortion or assisted suicide etc. Instead of killing murderers who deserve to exist in the hottest corner of hell, we should place them in the most uncomfortable sort of prison for life that can be imagined.

Remember, the murder rate was FAR lower when murderers were afraid of the consequences. THEY were enlightened to the fact that if they do horrific crimes, the electric chair or a horrible prison was awaiting them.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: loneleeb3 on October 19, 2007, 03:04:49 pm
Quote
Instead of killing murderers who deserve to exist in the hottest corner of hell, we should place them in the most uncomfortable sort of prison for life that can be imagined.
If that would actually happen, I'd be all for it!
I don't like the death penalty but if it's between that and housing murderers and seeing all their needs are met, I vote for the death penalty!
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: moremojo on October 19, 2007, 03:16:49 pm
This society desperately needs its own Beccaria. I wish I could advocate my position as elegantly and intelligently as he; instead, I feel like I'm just talking in circles. I know ultimately we will have to agree to disagree, and hopefully can do so in as respectful a manner as possible.

Let me leave you with this one thought: While anguishing over the cruelties of others, be mindful of the potential cruelty that resides within yourself, and do not let it steer your life into a hell of your own creation. Hate begets hate, and love mirrors love. And it is never inappropriate to respond with love.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: loneleeb3 on October 19, 2007, 03:22:48 pm
Quote
Let me leave you with this one thought: While anguishing over the cruelties of others, be mindful of the potential cruelty that resides within yourself, and do not let it steer your life into a hell of your own creation. Hate begets hate, and love mirrors love. And it is never inappropriate to respond with love.

I agree with you.
The onley caveat I have is that love and forgiveness do not negate consequence and Justice.
We still have to face the consequences of our actions regardless if the victim forgives or not.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 19, 2007, 04:20:37 pm
I think morality is a complex subject that benefits most from subtle, nuanced analysis. A view that puts, say, Delalluvia or Lee or souxi, because they support the death penalty, on the same moral level as John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer seems absurdly black-and-white to me.

There are degrees of wrongness. I think the death penalty is wrong. But I don't think people who favor killing those who have committed terrible crimes -- as vengeance, as punishment, as deterrent, out of an unwillingness to pay for their support -- are just AS wrong as those who actually commit the terrible crimes.

Quote
There seems to be a perennial human impulse to scapegoat people, render them less than human, and treat them accordingly. In Nero's Rome, it was the Christians; in late Ottoman Turkey, it was the Armenians; in Nazi Germany, it was the Jews. At this contemporary juncture of history, people deemed to be "terrorists" or "pedophiles" are especially vulnerable to this kind of treatment.

The crucial difference is that we're not talking about people deemed to be something they are not, as scapegoats are. We're talking about people who actually ARE terrorists or murderers. Again, I don't in any way condone their being executed. But let's be clear about who they are.



Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Mikaela on October 19, 2007, 04:36:23 pm
I voted the closest available option for my view, so I voted "no".

But what I really would have liked to have voted, is:


NO!!!




That there is such a wide-spread acceptance and support - indifference at best -  for the death penalty in the US astounds, depresses and discourages me. I can't understand it. In my view it's inhumane, cruel, unethical, open to errors that can never be redressed....it devalues human lives. It dehumanizes whoever sentences someone to death or carries out the sentence.   Luckily, where I live the death penalty is so far off the political map that I can't conceive of it ever being discussed even as a remote possibility.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: moremojo on October 19, 2007, 05:05:39 pm
Mikaela, the spirit of Beccaria has found voice through you.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: David In Indy on October 19, 2007, 05:16:08 pm
Thanks to everyone who has participated in this poll thus far. I find everyones comments very interesting and valid.

I'm especially pleased so many of our Euro and other non American Brokies have weighed in on the subject. This is exactly what I was hoping for. I think it's very interesting and important to learn of everybody's opinions on the death penalty regardless of whether or not they live in the United States.

Let's also remember to respect each person's opinion, even though these opinions may differ greatly from our own. Capital punishment is a hot topic in the US, and emotions often run high when it's discussed. I appreciate everyone remaining civil and friendly as it is being debated. I hope this will continue. I do not support the death penalty, but this doesn't mean I can't appreciate and even learn from those people who support it. I think we all have valid reasons for feeling the way we do. Those who support the death penalty feel strongly for the victim and his or her family. Those of us who oppose the death penalty also feel for the victim and the family, but we also believe two wrongs do not make a right. Both groups show a very high level of compassion.

The people I REALLY worry about are those who simply don't care one way or the other.  ???
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 19, 2007, 05:31:27 pm
Beccaria had no conception of the types of crimes our current society is dealing with. Death penalites and torture that he addressed were metted out for stealing bread, not going to church and other minor infractions that we do not even consider infractions today. I think if he had a view of our current crime and so-called justice system, his opinions would be quite different than those expressed over 200 years ago.

The idea that "love mirrors love.." is a philospophy of hope that may prevail in reality for raising children in stable homes, but has not proven to be a very good guardian of personal safety on the street where most crime is commited and for which society and victims feel punishment is appropriate. My Jewish relatives thought being passive would save them and they were slaughtered. The crime victims who are mercilessly gunned down in spite of begging for their lives presented no hate. Sharon Tate did not spew hate. The list goes on for decades.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 19, 2007, 05:40:03 pm
I voted the closest available option for my view, so I voted "no".

But what I really would have liked to have voted, is:


NO!!!




That there is such a wide-spread acceptance and support - indifference at best -  for the death penalty in the US astounds, depresses and discourages me. I can't understand it. In my view it's inhumane, cruel, unethical, open to errors that can never be redressed....it devalues human lives. It dehumanizes whoever sentences someone to death or carries out the sentence.   Luckily, where I live the death penalty is so far off the political map that I can't conceive of it ever being discussed even as a remote possibility.

Interestingly, all these points are used frequently by anti-abortion proponents. I wonder if the strong feelings here against capital punishment also align behind the pro-life people?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 19, 2007, 06:40:10 pm
Interestingly, all these points are used frequently by anti-abortion proponents. I wonder if the strong feelings here against capital punishment also align behind the pro-life people?

Not for me they don't. Because the central issue in abortion is not whether it's OK to kill a person, it's whether an unborn fetus constitutes a person.

(Guess you figured the thread was getting dull and it was time to liven things up with a little controversy, hunh?  ;) ;D)

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: loneleeb3 on October 19, 2007, 06:43:17 pm
Not for me they don't. Because the central issue in abortion is not whether it's OK to kill a person, it's whether an unborn fetus constitutes a person.

(Guess you figured the thread was getting dull and it was time to liven things up with a little controversy, hunh?  ;) ;D)



Oh what the heck.
I'll just add to the malestrom!
I am Pro-Life in terms of Abortion.
I see no reason to kill an innocent child for the sake of convienience! :)
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Mikaela on October 19, 2007, 06:57:00 pm
Interestingly, all these points are used frequently by anti-abortion proponents. I wonder if the strong feelings here against capital punishment also align behind the pro-life people?

I thought it was the other way around, in the US at least, though I have no statistics immediately at hand to prove it.  I.e. that those strongly in favor of the death penalty by and large are equally strongly and vehemently opposed to women's access to abortion. Personally I think that this view on abortion many a time may have more to do with the wish to limit and control women and women's sexuality than with any concern for preserving human lives and with respecting the inviolability of human life on general principle. Clamoring simultaneously for the death penalty and against women's access to abortion points in that direction.

However I do agree that sentiments and arguments along the lines of my view on the death penalty may be entirely and sincerely relevant for someone who is opposed to abortion.

Perhaps there should be a separate poll on the views on abortion?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Shasta542 on October 19, 2007, 07:05:03 pm
Oh what the heck.
I'll just add to the malestrom!
I am Pro-Life in terms of Abortion.
I see no reason to kill an innocent child for the sake of convienience! :)

Ditto.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on October 19, 2007, 07:07:03 pm


        Well I feel that you Scott are speaking one thing and those of us that disagree with you are speaking another..You are speaking of a Utopian civilization..where we all were so advanced, that we didnt feel the
base responses..We would never kill those who sought to kill us..We would never punish people by severity
of death.  That is all well and good and high minded.  However we dont live in that world..We live in this one.
The world of sadists and masochists and evil killers...They are a group that are unreachable and unredeemable.
Why should we then be forced to" keep" them alive after they commit these heinous crimes against often the
weakest among us...I dont agree with you, and never will..they need to go..they have as sioux said forfeited the
right to be a member of society..I guess I am not so perfect and pure a person as could say they
didnt deserve it because it would make society an equal of him....I disagree...the same as if a rabid dog came into
my yard, it is incurable, and i would have to do away with it....  Its a simple matter of protection....
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 19, 2007, 07:32:08 pm
I thought it was the other way around, in the US at least, though I have no statistics immediately at hand to prove it.  I.e. that those strongly in favor of the death penalty by and large are equally strongly and vehemently opposed to women's access to abortion. Personally I think that this view on abortion many a time may have more to do with the wish to limit and control women and women's sexuality than with any concern for preserving human lives and with respecting the inviolability of human life on general principle. Clamoring simultaneously for the death penalty and against women's access to abortion points in that direction.

However I do agree that sentiments and arguments along the lines of my view on the death penalty may be entirely and sincerely relevant for someone who is opposed to abortion.

Perhaps there should be a separate poll on the views on abortion?

Well, it's interesting to discuss them together, because you're right, Americans who favor the death penalty tend to oppose legalized abortion (and vise versa).

I think that sometimes both views are sincere and noncontradictory. People think the death penalty is the best way to deal with heinous criminals, and they also think abortion is murder. Just as I don't see any contradiction in my own reverse viewpoints. (I'll admit, though, that I'm less pro-choice than I am anti-death penalty -- I can understand, though not fully support, arguments like Lee's, that abortion can be seen as killing for the sake of convenience.)

I don't see opposition to abortion as necessarily a desire to control women's sexuality. I do sometimes see it as the equivalent of a religion one is raised in and therefore accepts as reality. I think a lot of politics is like that -- in America and probably elsewhere, too. You are raised to think a certain way, to identify yourself as a certain kind of person, and that goes along with a set of beliefs that you accept as your own. I'm not saying this is how everybody develops their opinions, but I think it happens a lot.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Brown Eyes on October 19, 2007, 07:49:42 pm
I see no reason to kill an innocent child for the sake of convienience! :)

I don't even really know what this means. 

I don't think that the decision to have an abortion has anything to do with convenience.  It's a gut-wrenching decision based on complicated factors.  Bearing an unwanted child is no small thing to ask of a woman... pregnancy and childbirth are potentially life-threatening processes that can and sometimes do ruin a woman's life on numerous levels.

To me the central question in the abortion issue is who has the right to control a woman's body.  And I think the only humane answer is the woman herself.


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Brokeback_Dev on October 19, 2007, 07:50:56 pm
I thought it was the other way around, in the US at least, though I have no statistics immediately at hand to prove it.  I.e. that those strongly in favor of the death penalty by and large are equally strongly and vehemently opposed to women's access to abortion. Personally I think that this view on abortion many a time may have more to do with the wish to limit and control women and women's sexuality than with any concern for preserving human lives and with respecting the inviolability of human life on general principle. Clamoring simultaneously for the death penalty and against women's access to abortion points in that direction.

However I do agree that sentiments and arguments along the lines of my view on the death penalty may be entirely and sincerely relevant for someone who is opposed to abortion.

Perhaps there should be a separate poll on the views on abortion?


If I'm correct you're saying that people like me who are in favor of the death penalty for a horrible crime, say for instance when someone rapes a baby, killing him or her, that I'm wrong to have a pro choice opinion on abortion?  And that, although I think abortion is murder for my own personal reasons, I still agree in a woman's right to choose.. Is saying what?  Its saying I have different views on different issues.

I realize it seems a bit contradictory.  A woman deserves  the right to choose what she does to her body.  Although i hold back no punches in the case of partial birth abortion..Thats when a woman say 5 or 6 months along even 4 months along chooses to "abort" her child is actually induced labor, and then once the baby is born alive, the baby's brains are sucked out of its head.  yes once its born alive and a child.

I agree with the death penalty..  especially when it comes to crimes against children.   I stand firm on that.  Sorry to whoever, but the can of worms has been opened and its messy one.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Mikaela on October 19, 2007, 08:06:22 pm
I don't think that the decision to have an abortion has anything to do with convenience.  It's a gut-wrenching decision based on complicated factors.  Bearing an unwanted child is no small thing to ask of a woman... it's a potentially life-threatening process that could ruin a woman's life on numerous levels.

To me the central issue in the abortion issue is who has the right to control a woman's body.  And I think the only humane answer is the woman herself.

You speak for me in this.

And the fetus IMO is part of a woman's body as long as it's not mature enough to survive outside of her body. The fetus does not in my view represent an individual human being at that stage, -  not one whose rights should take presedence over those of the mother. Ultimately it is the woman herself and noone else who has the right to decide what should happen to her own body. Abortion will never, never, ever be an "easy" decision....


Quote
If I'm correct you're saying that people like me who are in favor of the death penalty for a horrible crime, say for instance when someone who rapes a baby, killing him or her, tjat I'm wrong to have a pro choice opinion on abortion?

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I find it difficult to reconcile the views of anyone who opposes legal abortion and state as their reason that they think it's wrong to take human lives,  -  but who still is strongly in favour of the death penalty which in fact represents the legalized taking of human lives.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Brown Eyes on October 19, 2007, 08:07:36 pm
Interestingly, all these points are used frequently by anti-abortion proponents. I wonder if the strong feelings here against capital punishment also align behind the pro-life people?

For the record, I'm very, very strongly pro-choice and I'm against the death penalty but it's less of a big issue for me.  The pro-choice issue is something I feel more strongly about.

I think the common denominator in those two opinions has to do with who gets to control a person's body... the individual or some outside entity such as the government. 

With the death penalty, the flaws in the legal/judicial system and the danger of potentially executing an innocent person give me serious pause.  Also, I think the idea of killing a criminal as punishment for murder sends a very mixed message about what exactly the legal/judicial system is saying about the act of killing.

On another note, I also think that life in prison may be more of a punishment for many abject criminals than the death penalty. 

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Brown Eyes on October 19, 2007, 08:21:48 pm
You speak for me.  :)


{{{Mikaela}}}
:)

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Brokeback_Dev on October 19, 2007, 08:27:42 pm
On another note, I also think that life in prison may be more of a punishment for many abject criminals than the death penalty. 

I appreciate your opinion on abortion Amanda, and I probably have no right to say this being that i havent actually been to prison....but naturally prison is not a nice place to be.  Certainly I wouldnt want to be there..  But I think sooner or later the baby murderers and ppl like Charles Manson learn the dos and donts.   And they may even have it made there..  as far as prison society goes.

This is a very complicated issue.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on October 19, 2007, 08:34:26 pm


       I dont think the two issues have to be married..However, common logic seems to say If you are against abortion on the reasons it is taking a human life, therefor immoral.  Then the same logic carried to its logical
conclusion should mean you should be also against the death penalty, for the exact same reason..
       Or do you believe only that a fetus should have more rights and moral freedom than a older human...?

       The flip side doesnt logically marry in the same sense..You are not saying you are pro death penalty because you want revenge, you are saying it is a safety issue, morality has noting to do with it.
        The same way allowing a woman to choose what she can or cannot do with her own body is not a moral
issue..its a personal rights issue..
         My problem is mainly with the fact that the people that are so called, and i say so called, because I dont think
its a pro life, so much as a non abortion issue..I dont know anyone that isnt pro life...I dont know anyone that
is for abortions either...it is simply a choice a woman should have over her own reproductive system...
         The same people that are ,,,pro life,, seem to be unwilling to be sure that the child once its born is
taken care of or clothed or medically assured of care.  Such as the bill that was just defeated..
         It seems the line should be, we are pro fetus, and after that you are on your own....
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 19, 2007, 09:05:01 pm
I'm pro-death penalty and pro-choice, so at least I'm consistent.   ;D

As far as the abortion issue is, after many years of debating the issue with pro-life friends, we have discovered the chasm that separates our ways of thinking - BTW there is no middle ground for pro-lifers.

Pro-lifers are fighting for the rights/life of a baby. It's a criminal issue, murder of innocents.

"They're murdering helpless children!  I'm never going to be in favor of that!"

Pro-choicers are fighting for the civil rights of women as people to have sovereignty over their own bodies.

"They're telling me that as a woman, I'm not a fully independent human being.  That due to a biological change in my body, my rights are now gone and I'm a 2nd class citizen, the public/govt is now in charge of my body and not me.  I'm never going to be in favor of that!"

NO one is going to budge from these two stances if they believe strongly enough.

Now, the puzzling part I find is that pro-lifers tend to be contradictory.  They do not approve of abortion...but if you ask them about a woman's health being the issue - having/carrying the child will kill her, she's pregnant by incest or rape, then pro-lifers - not all of them - will agree that abortion is OK in those circumstances.

This is strange IMO.  Either abortion is murder or it isn't.  The circumstances don't matter.  To me, if one truly believes that abortion is murder, then regardless of the circumstances of the pregnancy, to abort the fetus is murder.

I'm not sure how pro-lifers reconcile this.

But back to the death penalty - many many good opinions and POVs.  Again, it's not the money issue, the people who've been convicted of heinous crimes pretty much have it coming to them.

There is something wrong with them and nothing is going to 'fix' them.  The majority are not insane because most committed their crimes, then tried to hide it.  They're well aware of right and wrong...but they did it anyway.

No, I don't believe the death penalty is a deterrant.  That's been proven, I believe.  However, neither is the idea of a long prison sentence either.  As far as the U.S. is concerned, the crime rate either stays steady or rises.  Obviously very little works as a deterrant if people are determined to commit crimes.

IMO, heinous crimes need to be treated with all the shock and horror they deserve.  Much ado needs to be made of prosecuting the perpetrators.  Their punishment should be as draconian as allowed.  It's to show how deeply a society is shocked and will bend its own standards of acceptable behavior and conduct when faced with such a reprehensible act.

It doesn't diminish us as people, any more than war or self-defense does.

As far as the executioner and his mental health...well, technology is buzzing along and soon, there won't be the need for a human one.  Even so, in most death penalty cases, you can almost always find someone ready to volunteer from the friends and family members destroyed by the murderer's actions.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 19, 2007, 09:31:58 pm
Ultimately it is the woman herself and noone else who has the right to decide what should happen to her own body. Abortion will never, never, ever be an "easy" decision....

Why not, though, if the only issue is who controls a woman's body? If the only interests involved are the woman's, and she doesn't want to have a baby, then it should be no big deal. It's not a difficult decision for a woman to get an appendectomy, for example, because no one believes that an appendix has rights or interests of its own.

To say that abortion is a difficult decision suggests that someone else's interests ARE involved, at least potentially -- presumably those of the fetus (and, of course, the father's, but setting aside that whole can of worms, at least for the moment ...). And if the fetus has interests, what does that then imply?

It's the flip side of the inconsistencies that delalluvia mentioned -- pro-lifers who make an exception for incest or rape. If the fetus is a human being, and an innocent one at that, why is it OK to kill it based on the circumstances of its conception?

To me, to be absolutely pro-choice is to shrug off abortion the way one would an appendectomy. To be absolutely pro-life is to oppose all abortions, under any circumstances (with the exception of saving the life of the mother, because then there is an actual life at stake).

But many people, myself included, fall somewhere in between ...

(And just to touch back on topic for the sake of clarity: I am not in between on the subject of capital punishment, I'm completely against it.)





Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 19, 2007, 09:40:52 pm
Why not, though, if the only issue is who controls a woman's body? If the only interests involved are the woman's, and she doesn't want to have a baby, then it should be no big deal. It's not a difficult decision for a woman to get an appendectomy, for example, because no one believes that an appendix has rights or interests of its own.

To say that abortion is a difficult decision suggests that someone else's interests ARE involved, at least potentially -- presumably those of the fetus (and, of course, the father's, but setting aside that whole can of worms, at least for the moment ...). And if the fetus has interests, what does that then imply?

It's the flip side of the inconsistencies that delalluvia mentioned -- pro-lifers who make an exception for incest or rape. If the fetus is a human being, and an innocent one at that, why is it OK to kill it based on the circumstances of its conception?

To me, to be absolutely pro-choice is to shrug off abortion the way one would an appendectomy. To be absolutely pro-life is to oppose all abortions, under any circumstances (with the exception of saving the life of the mother, because then there is an actual life at stake).

But many people, myself included, fall somewhere in between ...


I think the reason is because to be pro-choice is exactly that.  A woman has a choice.  She can have the baby and give it up for adoption, she can have an abortion. she can carry the baby to term and keep it.  Thereby lies the statement about an abortion being a difficult decision.  In a society where a woman has a choice, this doesn't make having to make the choice any easier.  Plus, a woman rarely exists in a vacuum.  She has pressures and considerations of her situation, health, family and perhaps the father and society at large.  [shrug]
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Brokeback_Dev on October 19, 2007, 09:42:37 pm
I'm pro-death penalty and pro-choice, so at least I'm consistent.   ;D

As far as the abortion issue is, after many years of debating the issue with pro-life friends, we have discovered the chasm that separates our ways of thinking - BTW there is no middle ground for pro-lifers.

Pro-lifers are fighting for the rights/life of a baby. It's a criminal issue, murder of innocents.

"They're murdering helpless children!  I'm never going to be in favor of that!"

Pro-choicers are fighting for the civil rights of women as people to have sovereignty over their own bodies.

"They're telling me that as a woman, I'm not a fully independent human being.  That due to a biological change in my body, my rights are now gone and I'm a 2nd class citizen, the public/govt is now in charge of my body and not me.  I'm never going to be in favor of that!"

NO one is going to budge from these two stances if they believe strongly enough.

Now, the puzzling part I find is that pro-lifers tend to be contradictory.  They do not approve of abortion...but if you ask them about a woman's health being the issue - having/carrying the child will kill her, she's pregnant by incest or rape, then pro-lifers - not all of them - will agree that abortion is OK in those circumstances.

This is strange IMO.  Either abortion is murder or it isn't.  The circumstances don't matter.  To me, if one truly believes that abortion is murder, then regardless of the circumstances of the pregnancy, to abort the fetus is murder.

I'm not sure how pro-lifers reconcile this.

But back to the death penalty - many many good opinions and POVs.  Again, it's not the money issue, the people who've been convicted of heinous crimes pretty much have it coming to them.

There is something wrong with them and nothing is going to 'fix' them.  The majority are not insane because most committed their crimes, then tried to hide it.  They're well aware of right and wrong...but they did it anyway.

No, I don't believe the death penalty is a deterrant.  That's been proven, I believe.  However, neither is the idea of a long prison sentence either.  As far as the U.S. is concerned, the crime rate either stays steady or rises.  Obviously very little works as a deterrant if people are determined to commit crimes.

IMO, heinous crimes need to be treated with all the shock and horror they deserve.  Much ado needs to be made of prosecuting the perpetrators.  Their punishment should be as draconian as allowed.  It's to show how deeply a society is shocked and will bend its own standards of acceptable behavior and conduct when faced with such a reprehensible act.

It doesn't diminish us as people, any more than war or self-defense does.

As far as the executioner and his mental health...well, technology is buzzing along and soon, there won't be the need for a human one.  Even so, in most death penalty cases, you can almost always find someone ready to volunteer from the friends and family members destroyed by the murderer's actions.


Delalluvia  I can appreciate your views.  Somehow though I feel a need to defend stance.  I am pro-choice and pro-death penalty. 

I know of a child that was murdered and it was mine.  I killed my baby..I had an abortion.  I didnt know any different.  Abortion had just become legal and I had no female or male role model to turn to. 

For the longest time after that I would think about how old my child would be at different times.  Fortunately, I got the chance to have another child.  A child who means more than anything in the world to me.

A woman has the right to decide if she wants to keep her baby or not.   She has to live with it though and for some of us, its not an easy thing to live with.

I wanted to tell you that there can be a middle ground.  I still think that its killing your baby in the case of incest or rape.  But I like what you said "Pro-choicers are fighting for the civil rights of women as people to have sovereignty over their own bodies." 

I believe in that.  So I have to disagree when you say there's no middle ground.  I think I have found the middle ground. That is to each his own.  Its not up to me or the government to decide what a woman wants to do with her biological make up.. Its her choice whether she believes she's killing her baby or not.

As for Pro-death penalty well obviously I have no problem with that.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Brown Eyes on October 19, 2007, 09:48:36 pm
I think the reason is because to be pro-choice is exactly that.  A woman has a choice.  She can have the baby and give it up for adoption, she can have an abortion. she can carry the baby to term and keep it.  Thereby lies the statement about an abortion being a difficult decision.  In a society where a woman has a choice, this doesn't make having to make the choice any easier.  Plus, a woman rarely exists in a vacuum.  She has pressures and considerations of her situation, health, family and perhaps the father and society at large.  [shrug]

I think this is very well stated concerning why having an abortion is a difficult decision.  I'm sure it's all very relative and personal to each individual who goes through the process of deciding. 


And, dev, thanks so much for sharing your perspective.


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on October 19, 2007, 10:05:28 pm


        We are never going to come to a concencus here..Everyone has their own thoughts and ideas.  I think
that the importance is, the fact that we are all sharing those individual thoughts without malice and with understanding..is highly important..the truth is outside our little universe of love and care..that is not always
the case..There is lots of name calling and even death...If they could all discuss it as it is here..
        No one likes to have an abortion, and no one wants to kill someone that has been a heinous killer...however
we are all adults, and have to live in an adult world..deal with the things that make our lives and our society
a safer and freer place...Its like pulling a rotton tooth...sometimes its just the only solution to a difficult problem..
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 20, 2007, 03:31:28 am
I think the reason is because to be pro-choice is exactly that.  A woman has a choice.  She can have the baby and give it up for adoption, she can have an abortion. she can carry the baby to term and keep it.  Thereby lies the statement about an abortion being a difficult decision.  In a society where a woman has a choice, this doesn't make having to make the choice any easier.  Plus, a woman rarely exists in a vacuum.  She has pressures and considerations of her situation, health, family and perhaps the father and society at large.  [shrug]

OK, so you're saying that abortion is a difficult decision in the sense that it might be a difficult decision, say, whether to take a particular job -- that is, it's difficult because there's a lot at stake, and perhaps external pressures, but that none of these involve the possibility of doing something that's morally wrong or involves killing a human?

If that's all you mean, fine. I get that. To me, though, when people talk about abortion being a difficult decision, or say that it should be avoided if possible, it usually sounds as if they're implying at least a tiny bit of uncertainty about the ultimate morality of the procedure. And if that's the case, if the fetus is considered to be a being whose interests are in any way part of the equation, then it's no longer simply about a woman's body. It's about someone else's body (this potential human's).

Not to mention the potential offspring of the father which, not to open a whole can of worms, I also consider important.

I say this, BTW, as someone who also has had an abortion. It was a difficult situation as I'm sure it always is, but it wasn't a wrenching decision -- it was a very obvious one, to me, at the time. I've never felt a moment's regret even when, decades later, I had two children.

Still, I have come to see this as a very complex issue and, to me, one that, in principle, unquestionably extends beyond an individual woman's body.


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Mikaela on October 20, 2007, 06:03:44 am
Why not, though, if the only issue is who controls a woman's body? If the only interests involved are the woman's, and she doesn't want to have a baby, then it should be no big deal.

This is a rhetorical question, right? Or do you actually mean that?  ???  If the so-called "pro-lifers" have achieved anything they've managed to bring loud and persistent arguments into the field for the fetus being a human being from the first cell globule or so - and even if a woman does not ultimately agree with that, I can hardly imagine her being in that situation and not considering those views or arguments at all, turning them over, making sure she's addressed those concerns.... Debating with herself whether she should really remove what will, if brougth to term, become a human being. There *is* a personal dilemma in that which would never be there concerning removing some other random body part, and I can't pretend there isn't. Which is also why I earlier said that I can see how my views on the death penalty might be brought into the field by anyone who honestly considers a fetus a human being with separate rights to life, even in the early stages.   

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 20, 2007, 11:46:17 am
If the so-called "pro-lifers" have achieved anything they've managed to bring loud and persistent arguments into the field for the fetus being a human being from the first cell globule or so - and even if a woman does not ultimately agree with that, I can hardly imagine her being in that situation and not considering those views or arguments at all, turning them over, making sure she's addressed those concerns.... Debating with herself whether she should really remove what will, if brougth to term, become a human being. There *is* a personal dilemma in that which would never be there concerning removing some other random body part, and I can't pretend there isn't. 

OK, that makes sense. But it's for those very reasons that I can't help bristling a little when pro-choice advocates argue that the only issue involved is a woman's right to control her own body. I've never been fond of that argument. It dismisses as inconsequential the endlessly debatable but understandable concerns of at least some portion of abortion opponents that abortion is tantamount to murder. If a fetus is a human being, how does a woman's control over her body for nine months automatically take priority over its life? I mean, ultimately it might be possible to argue that it does (and I've seen such arguments made -- there's a famous and kind of ridiculous one involving a woman waking up to find herself chained to and attached by the kidneys to, for some reason, a violinist). But it's far from automatic.

I suppose as a political strategy, the control-over-body argument is more clearcut and easier to make than to step into the morass of debating the humanity, or lack thereof, of a fetus. But to me it seems limited and insufficient because it overlooks the hypothetical rights of both the fetus and the father.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 20, 2007, 01:33:49 pm
I think I'll weigh in the question I started!!! It is a semi-oddity that, in general ( and generalities are fair since most of our lives are controlled by such), pro life folks skew toward pro death penalty and pro choice folks skew toward anti death penalty. To me, these seem like inconsistent logic, however, many like myself who are not averse (though may not heartily support) to the death penalty are heralding life and its preciousness by eliminating those evils who would destroy it.

On the other side, I do not find a similar rationale to help understand the apparent disconnect of being pro choice and avidly anti death penalty. The main reason in some of these posts to help address the inconsistency seems to be the notion that abortion in not about loss of a life, rather a women's right to control her body. That "argument" is decades old and as science has progressed, it seems less and less valid.

First, a baby is NOT a women's body. It is IN her body, but it is most definitely a separate human life. Second, the so-called government controlling one's body issue happens all the time; we are all victims and beneficiaries of it. A person cannot take prescription medicines unless the government says OK; one cannot have an operation to remove an ear just because he or she may want to; you cannot put alcohol in your body under age 21 or if you are in a car, a man cannot quit his job and as a result default on child support payments, etc etc etc. Such controls are commonplace and all around our lives and each is intended to be in place to help the common good, cause least harm to society, and avoid serious loss of civil rights to individuals and groups.

In most pro choice dialog, the baby is not considered a person and hence has no rights. This approach is a VERY slippery slop. Recall that Hitler rationalized the murder of millions because he believed it wasn't killing humans; to him they were sub humans, the Unter Menchen..not really people and hence had no rights. So, both in terms of rationalizing death penalites and abortion, many fail to observe the victims as human beings.

If I had to line up behind the most logical side it would be to support no death penality and no abortions after the first 4 months of the fetus' life. To deal with the results, I would have mandatory life sentences without parole (in mean prisons) for those who could have been executed and provide adoption services for all the would-have-been abortions.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Shasta542 on October 20, 2007, 02:02:09 pm
Quote
First, a baby is NOT a women's body. It is IN her body, but it is most definitely a separate human life.

Well put. Thank-you.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 20, 2007, 02:21:12 pm

First, a baby is NOT a women's body. It is IN her body, but it is most definitely a separate human life.

Well, actually no it's not.  That's part of the argument.  A fetus only becomes viable - able to exist on its own as a separate being at about - you medical people can correct me here - six months.  Before that, it is definitely part of the woman's body.  If you 'disconnect' the fetus from the woman's body, it will simply die.

You can't get more obvious than that about the fetus being part of the woman's body.

Quote
Second, the so-called government controlling one's body issue happens all the time; we are all victims and beneficiaries of it. A person cannot take prescription medicines unless the government says OK;

That's not the same thing.  Prescription laws deal with distribution of medication, not bodily sovreignty.

Quote
one cannot have an operation to remove an ear just because he or she may want to;

Well, yes you can.  It depends on where you live.   You simply have to find a doctor willing and the sufficient funds.

Quote
you cannot put alcohol in your body under age 21 or if you are in a car,

Sure you can.  In some countries the drinking age is much younger than 21, in past eras, there was no drinking age whatsoever and I have certainly had alcohol and gotten in a car.  If I was drunk, the someone else was driving, if I wasn't drunk but had a drink, it's still legal.

Quote
a man cannot quit his job and as a result default on child support payments, etc etc etc. Such controls are commonplace and all around our lives and each is intended to be in place to help the common good

Yes, but none of these have anything to do with bodily sovreignty.

Quote
In most pro choice dialog, the baby is not considered a person and hence has no rights.

Your definintion of a baby is different than other people's definition.

Quote
This approach is a VERY slippery slop. Recall that Hitler rationalized the murder of millions because he believed it wasn't killing humans;

Yes, but in reality, Hilter was basing his ideas of who was human and who wasn't on his religious background and personal biases - shall we do away with Christian religion?.  It had nothing to do with what actually defined human or a person.

This has nothing to do with the pro-choice and pro-life arguments.  Actually it's extremely offensive to compare pro-choice advocates to Nazis, thank you very much.

Quote
If I had to line up behind the most logical side it would be to support no death penality and no abortions after the first 4 months of the fetus' life. To deal with the results, I would have mandatory life sentences without parole (in mean prisons) for those who could have been executed and provide adoption services for all the would-have-been abortions.

The problem with this argument is that most life-threatening birth defects are not discovered until after the first trimester.  Limiting a woman to abortion options in the first trimester means forcing her to carry to term a child who will not live or will live with massive birth defects and with the knowledge that she is doing so.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 20, 2007, 02:37:06 pm
OK, so you're saying that abortion is a difficult decision in the sense that it might be a difficult decision, say, whether to take a particular job -- that is, it's difficult because there's a lot at stake, and perhaps external pressures, but that none of these involve the possibility of doing something that's morally wrong or involves killing a human?

If that's all you mean, fine. I get that. To me, though, when people talk about abortion being a difficult decision, or say that it should be avoided if possible, it usually sounds as if they're implying at least a tiny bit of uncertainty about the ultimate morality of the procedure. And if that's the case, if the fetus is considered to be a being whose interests are in any way part of the equation, then it's no longer simply about a woman's body. It's about someone else's body (this potential human's).

Not to mention the potential offspring of the father which, not to open a whole can of worms, I also consider important.

I say this, BTW, as someone who also has had an abortion. It was a difficult situation as I'm sure it always is, but it wasn't a wrenching decision -- it was a very obvious one, to me, at the time. I've never felt a moment's regret even when, decades later, I had two children.

Still, I have come to see this as a very complex issue and, to me, one that, in principle, unquestionably extends beyond an individual woman's body.

What Mikaela said.  The pro-life and religious fundamentalist factions and of course the fact that in the U.S. we are still immersed in Christian morality in almost every facet of existence here - hence Jack and Ennis' issues - make not debating the morality/ethics of one's actions in choosing abortion almost unheard of.  It does exist, as others have pointed out, so it's really as it should be - a personal decision and not one needing to be dictated by our government.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 20, 2007, 02:46:45 pm
Well, actually no it's not.  That's part of the argument.  A fetus only becomes viable - able to exist on its own as a separate being at about - you medical people can correct me here - six months.  Before that, it is definitely part of the woman's body.  If you 'disconnect' the fetus from the woman's body, it will simply die.

You can't get more obvious than that about the fetus being part of the woman's body.

That's not the same thing.  Prescription laws deal with distribution of medication, not bodily sovreignty.

Well, yes you can.  It depends on where you live.   You simply have to find a doctor willing and the sufficient funds.

Sure you can.  In some countries the drinking age is much younger than 21, in past eras, there was no drinking age whatsoever and I have certainly had alcohol and gotten in a car.  If I was drunk, the someone else was driving, if I wasn't drunk but had a drink, it's still legal.

Yes, but none of these have anything to do with bodily sovreignty.

Your definintion of a baby is different than other people's definition.

Yes, but in reality, Hilter was basing his ideas of who was human and who wasn't on his religious background and personal biases - shall we do away with Christian religion?.  It had nothing to do with what actually defined human or a person.

This has nothing to do with the pro-choice and pro-life arguments.  Actually it's extremely offensive to compare pro-choice advocates to Nazis, thank you very much.

The problem with this argument is that most life-threatening birth defects are not discovered until after the first trimester.  Limiting a woman to abortion options in the first trimester means forcing her to carry to term a child who will not live or will live with massive birth defects and with the knowledge that she is doing so.



Interesting twists on the points. to clarify, here are some responses:


1) of course if you "disconnect" the fetus it will die. that's what premature births are. you have to CARE for a new born. Even at full term, a newly born baby will simply die from lack of food or other environmental causes very quickly without constant care. I don't get your point. Many premies are born at 4-5 months now.

2) of course laws inhibiting drug (legal and illiegal) use, unlawful operations, unnecessary operations, etc are about "bodily sovreignty". and being compelled to work at a job or occupation or trade that one does not want to is the same thing. They exist because government believes people can't make the right choices. The inability to view child bearing as something other than "bodily sovreignty rights" is the bias that inhibits another view outside the rigid pro choice, any time, any place, any reason mentality, I think.

3) my definition of a baby is like most (80%) americans. What's yours?

4) your counter point about Hitler validates my point exactly. He did NOT base his evaluation of humans on religion and scorned the Church. You say "shall we do away with Christian religion?" the church is not pro choice and beieves abortion is murder. I apologize for offending you, but I have to say millions of others are offended daily by the rampant amount of annual abortions. Hitler was, by the by, an avid supporter of abortion.

5) I mentioned 4 months; the first trimester is 3 months. And, abortions due to "massive birth defects" (a concept Hitler also introduced) are NOT the reason why the vast majority of abortions are performed each year. 95% of abortions are done as a means of birth control. ONLY 1% because of fetal abnormalities. So, this point is somewhat mute since few would agree that (depending on what you mean by massive birth defects means) a child with such would not be a possible abortion option. However, you do know that "defects" such as a cleft pallet are reasons used to abort.





Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 20, 2007, 02:53:37 pm
Wow, I pretty much agree with everything Delalluvia said! (I think that's a first!  ;D  :-*)

Though I might respond a teensy bit differently to the following:

I do not find a similar rationale to help understand the apparent disconnect of being pro choice and avidly anti death penalty. The main reason in some of these posts to help address the inconsistency seems to be the notion that abortion in not about loss of a life, rather a women's right to control her body. That "argument" is decades old and as science has progressed, it seems less and less valid.

Unless I missed some news update, science has not determined the status of a fetus in moral terms. I don't know if it ever can. So that's the central question, not (IMO) the control-of-body issue. To me, it's something less than a baby, but something more than an inanimate lump of cells. Like many people, I'm not sure exactly where the line falls, or when it goes from one thing to another, or when that thing takes on rights of its own.

Quote
A person cannot take prescription medicines unless the government says OK; one cannot have an operation to remove an ear just because he or she may want to; you cannot put alcohol in your body under age 21 or if you are in a car,

What Delalluvia said to most of these. There are people who long to have a whole healthy limb amputated, and in some cases they find someone who will do it. Underage people (usually 18, but in the case of alcohol 21) have a different set of rights; they can't do a lot of things, including have abortions without parental permission. People over 21 can put all the alcohol in their bodies they want -- it's the driving that's restricted, not the drinking.

Quote
In most pro choice dialog, the baby is not considered a person and hence has no rights. This approach is a VERY slippery slop. Recall that Hitler rationalized the murder of millions because he believed it wasn't killing humans; to him they were sub humans, the Unter Menchen..not really people and hence had no rights. So, both in terms of rationalizing death penalites and abortion, many fail to observe the victims as human beings.

What Delalluvia said, again -- this is an offensive comparison. And BTW a baby has plenty of rights (except drinking alcohol, etc., as I said). A fetus does not share those rights, because at this point our society has not equated a fetus with a baby.

What Mikaela said.  The pro-life and religious fundamentalist factions and of course the fact that in the U.S. we are still immersed in Christian morality in almost every facet of existence here - hence Jack and Ennis' issues - make not debating the morality/ethics of one's actions in choosing abortion almost unheard of.  It does exist, as others have pointed out, so it's really as it should be - a personal decision and not one needing to be dictated by our government.

Oops, spoke too soon! We're back to disagreeing again, I think. I don't believe an opinion that a fetus has a right to life has to be a religious matter at all. It often is, of course. But it also can simply be a person's independent opinion. So the idea that this issue should be "dictated" by our government can be seen as similar to the idea that murder is not a personal decision and that laws against it should be dictated by our government.



Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Brokeback_Dev on October 20, 2007, 03:44:40 pm

I don't believe an opinion that a fetus has a right to life has to be a religious matter at all. It often is, of course. But it also can simply be a person's independent opinion.

As it is my personal opinion that at conception, two people have began the development a baby.  Its not a religious matter for me at all.  As a matter of fact, at 18 the only person I had to turn to was my bf's Catholic mother who said to me,  Even though I am Catholic, if you want to get any abortion its okay.  She didn't like me.  My mom probably would have been falling all over me happy and starting to plan a wonderful life for me my bf and the baby.

Oh and don't even get me to tell you what a horror the actual abortion is to a woman.  Its physically painful!  and emotional unbelievable painful for some.  For others, and I can think of a few right off the top of my head who actually get an abortion consistently as they continue to have sex without using contraceptives and get prego.

That doesnt seem morally right. my opinion only. But there's better ways to keep from having to have a baby.

In China women are forced by the government to have abortions.  Its true I learned about it in one of the classes I took and USF.  They have a one child only per family policy.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: louisev on October 20, 2007, 04:07:56 pm
I dont know how this thread became an abortion debate, but somehow equating abortion (any kind) with capital punishment of criminals boggles my imagination.

My two cents (since I already voted against the death penalty) is that abortion should remain the choice of the mother, and that a child is not a living soul until the soul enters the body at birth.  Since fundamentalist Christians do not have the moral high ground on what constitutes an ensouled living being,I consider my opinion just as valid as theirs, since no one can prove it - it isnt a matter of whether one can breathe or live on one's own.  But as I say, I don't get the connection between these two issues except that they are both greatly polarizing.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 20, 2007, 04:11:47 pm

1) of course if you "disconnect" the fetus it will die. that's what premature births are.

OK so now you're agreeing that the fetus - without the mother - will die without extreme care that mimicks what the body of the mother does.  Hence, it's a part of the mother.  Part of HER body.  It cannot exist on its own.

Quote
Even at full term, a newly born baby will simply die from lack of food or other environmental causes very quickly without constant care. I don't get your point. Many premies are born at 4-5 months now.

You're drifting off the topic.  We're talking about fetuses in the woman's body, not a full term newly born baby. 

Quote
2) of course laws inhibiting drug (legal and illiegal) use, unlawful operations, unnecessary operations, etc are about "bodily sovreignty". and being compelled to work at a job or occupation or trade that one does not want to is the same thing. They exist because government believes people can't make the right choices. The inability to view child bearing as something other than "bodily sovreignty rights" is the bias that inhibits another view outside the rigid pro choice, any time, any place, any reason mentality, I think.

We'll have to agree to disagree here.  I've pointed out that the examples you gave have nothing to do with bodily sovreignty and everything to do with control of substances.  The government in the US doesn't care if you smoke yourself into lung cancer or drink yourself into an early grave.  As long as you do it in your own private time and it doesn't affect others, you free to poison your body as much as you want.

Quote
3) my definition of a baby is like most (80%) americans. What's yours?

80% ?  Please quote your source.

Quote
4) your counter point about Hitler validates my point exactly. He did NOT base his evaluation of humans on religion and scorned the Church.

Well yes he did.  Hitler was raised a Christian.  His viewpoints about Jews were based on earlier Christian teachings about Jews being the Christ-killers, were damned without conversion and thus beings who didn't deserve consideration.  His own personal biases and mental issues further flavored this:

Hitler 1922 speech:

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter.  It points me to a man who once, in loneliness, surrounded by few followers recognized the Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them ..."

Hitler 1939 after his escaped assasination in Munich:

"Now I am completely content.  The fact that I left...earlier than expected is a corroboration of Providence's intention to let me reach my goal."

Hitler 1941 to adjutant General Engel:

"I shall remain a Catholic forever."

Quote
You say "shall we do away with Christian religion?" the church is not pro choice and beieves abortion is murder. I apologize for offending you, but I have to say millions of others are offended daily by the rampant amount of annual abortions. Hitler was, by the by, an avid supporter of abortion.

You missed the point.   You believe we should do away with abortion for personal reasons as it leads to genocide.  Quite a massive leap of logic.  I pointed out that the Christian teachings of Hitler caused him to despise Jews and later murder them.  If one leads to the other, then perhaps Christian teachings that lead people to persecute others should also be done away with.

Quote
5) I mentioned 4 months; the first trimester is 3 months.

Oops, my mistake.

Quote
And, abortions due to "massive birth defects" (a concept Hitler also introduced) are NOT the reason why the vast majority of abortions are performed each year.

Yes, but those are usually done in the 1st trimester when the fetus is little more than a mass of cells with no brain whatsoever.

Quote
95% of abortions are done as a means of birth control.

I would like you to cite your source before I would give credence to such a wild claim..

Quote
ONLY 1% because of fetal abnormalities. So, this point is somewhat mute since few would agree that (depending on what you mean by massive birth defects means) a child with such would not be a possible abortion option. However, you do know that "defects" such as a cleft pallet are reasons used to abort.

I know nothing of the sort.  The reports I read from women who have suffered through late term - or partial birth - abortions are due to defects such as spina bifida and lack of brain development.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 20, 2007, 04:29:20 pm

Hi crayons,

Quote from: delalluvia on Today at 02:37:06 PM
What Mikaela said.  The pro-life and religious fundamentalist factions and of course the fact that in the U.S. we are still immersed in Christian morality in almost every facet of existence here - hence Jack and Ennis' issues - make not debating the morality/ethics of one's actions in choosing abortion almost unheard of.  It does exist, as others have pointed out, so it's really as it should be - a personal decision and not one needing to be dictated by our government.


Oops, spoke too soon! We're back to disagreeing again, I think. I don't believe an opinion that a fetus has a right to life has to be a religious matter at all. It often is, of course. But it also can simply be a person's independent opinion. So the idea that this issue should be "dictated" by our government can be seen as similar to the idea that murder is not a personal decision and that laws against it should be dictated by our government.

We still agree. :)  Mikaela was just answering your question about why abortion can be a difficult decision.  Mikaela pointed out rightfully that due to the Right to Life program of cramming the word 'baby' into every sentence when they speak of abortion, it would be difficult for a woman to not take in moral considerations when making her decision.  Not because it is a religious issue, but because to the individual woman, it can be. 

Most of the polls taken in the last decade show that most Americans are religious in some way, the majority are Christians of some sort, so it would be unusual if the average woman getting an abortion was not a believer of the Christian school.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 20, 2007, 04:50:18 pm
We still agree. :) 

We're on a roll! So far, anyway ...

Well, because of all the issues that you and Mikaela mentioned, it seems to me disingenuous to claim that the abortion issue revolves entirely around a woman's right to control her own body. If, after considering all the evidence one way or the other concerning fetal rights, one still does not believe it has any, then it seems that should be the focus of the pro-choice argument. If there's a measure of doubt, then it still seems the pro-choice argument should somehow deal with it or risk sounding arrogant. By ignoring the fetus' status, pro-choicers sound as if they believe a woman's right to nine months of bodily control, valid though that might be, unquestionably takes priority over those of a hypothetical human to enjoy its potential life -- one that she helped bring into being.

Unfortunately, I realize, that's kind of idealistic thinking because the status of a fetus is so far from being resolved (and maybe never will be). In that imperfect world, the "woman's control" issue, I guess, has to suffice until someone comes up with something better. But to me it's not a great argument.

And weakening it slightly more, IMO, is the question of father's rights. I keep alluding to this only briefly, but actually I think it's very important -- should the father have any say in a woman's having an abortion? Should he have any say in whether she has and keeps the baby, knowing that means he'll be responsible for 18 years of support if she does? Why does the woman get all the power to decide on a matter that huge and life-altering?

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 20, 2007, 05:13:29 pm
We're on a roll! So far, anyway ...

Well, because of all the issues that you and Mikaela mentioned, it seems to me disingenuous to claim that the abortion issue revolves entirely around a woman's right to control her own body. If, after considering all the evidence one way or the other concerning fetal rights, one still does not believe it has any, then it seems that should be the focus of the pro-choice argument. If there's a measure of doubt, then it still seems the pro-choice argument should somehow deal with it or risk sounding arrogant.

There is always going to be a measure of doubt for some people for anything.  Why should those doubts be focused upon?  It would be like focusing our justice system on the possiblity that we may be wrong.  While that is a possibility, we don't continually focus on our justice system that way.

Quote
By ignoring the fetus' status

As you pointed out below, the fetus' status is currently under flux and will be for some time.  Right now, the fetus doesn't have a legal status until it reaches a certain stage of development - when it is viable outside the womb.  Or at least in some states.  This is why in the Laci Peterson case, Scott was tried for two murders instead of one.  The unborn baby was viable but still inside the womb.  Had he murdered her when she was only a few months along, he would have only been tried for one murder.

Quote
pro-choicers sound as if they believe a woman's right to nine months of bodily control, valid though that might be, unquestionably takes priority

See, I don't see a problem here.  Why shouldn't her rights take priority?  It is her body.  That did not change.

Quote
over those of a hypothetical human to enjoy its potential life

Potentiality isn't something one should base rights upon.  A woman may become pregnant, then spontaneously abort.  The potentiality came to naught.  Every pre-med student has the potential to be a doctor.  The fact that the majority don't make it through med school and get licensed is an extremely important distinction.

Quote
one that she helped bring into being.

So she can bring it into being, but as soon as she does, she no longer has control over it?

Quote
And weakening it slightly more, IMO, is the question of father's rights. I keep alluding to this only briefly, but actually I think it's very important -- should the father have any say in a woman's having an abortion? Should he have any say in whether she has and keeps the baby, knowing that means he'll be responsible for 18 years of support if she does? Why does the woman get all the power to decide on a matter that huge and life-altering?

These are excellent and very difficult to answer questions.  Should the father have a say?  And if so, what weight does his say carry? 

After all, how many people do you read about where the father grudgingly pays or doesn't pay child support?

His issue?  "I didn't want her to have the baby. SHE chose to have it.  Why do I have to pay for HER decision?"

Should he have the right to sign away his rights and responsibilities of the child should his say in the matter go directly against the woman's?

I would wonder how many women would change their minds about having a baby should the father have the option to not help her financially.

Or worse, he wants the baby badly, but she does not?  How can that possibly be reconciled?

The woman usually has the most power in the decision because in the end, she has to carry the child.  Again, it's the bodily sovreignty issue again.  It's her body that will take the full impact of the 9 months, her body that is irrevocably changed, her life that she is risking to have the child.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: loneleeb3 on October 20, 2007, 05:31:07 pm
I don't even really know what this means. 

I don't think that the decision to have an abortion has anything to do with convenience.  It's a gut-wrenching decision based on complicated factors.  Bearing an unwanted child is no small thing to ask of a woman... pregnancy and childbirth are potentially life-threatening processes that can and sometimes do ruin a woman's life on numerous levels.

To me the central question in the abortion issue is who has the right to control a woman's body.  And I think the only humane answer is the woman herself.
Well, From everything that I have read ( I'll see if I can find exact statistics) very few abortions are preformed due to life threatening circumstances.
While I agree, that it is a womans body, a choice should have been made earlier as to wether or not to have sex. It is not the childs fault the mother or father for that matter doesn't want it.Why destroy an innocent life for that reason? I know, people are going to say what if the woman had no choice IE rape. Well, those acount for one tenth of one percent of all abortions according to the NRLC.
Again, as terrible as it is, is it the childs fault? SHould we go kill the children of the rapist for what he did? No!
With as many couples treying to adopt it seems like a no brainer to me.
When does the right of the child come into play here? It is not a painless procedure for the child.
Dr Bernard Nathenson, an abortinist, filmed the abortion of an 11wk old inborn child. The child tried to get away from the light and as the procedure started could be viewed in what can only be described as a scream from the pain of the procedure.
I don't understand how people who are against the death penalty can view this as ok. As to the death penalty an adullt made a concious decision to take another life knowing the consequences of that action. Death is the punishment for said actions. In an abortion, an innocent child is either dismembered and sucked into a specimin jar or sink or burnt with a saline solution and forced out the birth canal! Both are barberic and both are done only because the child is not wanted for whatever reason.
I wonder how many people who are pro choice would want prostitution legalized. After all, it is a wpmans body!
I'm not trying to be mean or disrespetful. I am for full equality for women.I just think taking an innocent life is wrong!
Sorry if I made anyone angry. This is just my opinion andI repect everyones opinion even if I disagree.


11weeks
HEART IS BEATING (SINCE 18-25 DAYS)
BRAIN WAVES HAVE BEEN RECORDED AT 40 DAYS
THE BABY SQUINTS, SWALLOWS, AND CAN MAKE A FIST
THE BABY HAS FINGERPRINTS AND CAN KICK
THE BABY IS SENSITIVE TO HEAT, TOUCH, LIGHT AND NOISE
THE BABY SUCKS HIS OR HER THUMB
ALL BODY SYSTEMS ARE WORKING
THE BABY WEIGHS ABOUT 1 OUNCE AND IS 2 1/2 TO 3 INCHES LONG
THE BABY COULD FIT COMFORTABLY IN THE PALM OF YOUR HAND


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Shasta542 on October 20, 2007, 05:59:20 pm
I am with you, Lee. The choice comes when people have sex. Practically anyone can get birth control -- if people count on abortion for birth control, I don't understand that. (Yes, I know birth control is not 100% effective -- abortion is; so is abstinence.)
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 20, 2007, 05:59:51 pm
Well, From everything that I have read ( I'll see if I can find exact statistics) very few abortions are preformed due to life threatening circumstances.
While I agree, that it is a womans body, a choice should have been made earlier as to wether or not to have sex. It is not the childs fault the mother or father for that matter doesn't want it.Why destroy an innocent life for that reason? I know, people are going to say what if the woman had no choice IE rape. Well, those acount for one tenth of one percent of all abortions according to the NRLC.
Again, as terrible as it is, is it the childs fault? SHould we go kill the children of the rapist for what he did? No!
With as many couples treying to adopt it seems like a no brainer to me.
When does the right of the child come into play here? It is not a painless procedure for the child.
Dr Bernard Nathenson, an abortinist, filmed the abortion of an 11wk old inborn child. The child tried to get away from the light and as the procedure started could be viewed in what can only be described as a scream from the pain of the procedure.
I don't understand how people who are against the death penalty can view this as ok. As to the death penalty an adullt made a concious decision to take another life knowing the consequences of that action. Death is the punishment for said actions. In an abortion, an innocent child is either dismembered and sucked into a specimin jar or sink or burnt with a saline solution and forced out the birth canal! Both are barberic and both are done only because the child is not wanted for whatever reason.
I wonder how many people who are pro choice would want prostitution legalized. After all, it is a wpmans body!
I'm not trying to be mean or disrespetful. I am for full equality for women.I just think taking an innocent life is wrong!
Sorry if I made anyone angry. This is just my opinion andI repect everyones opinion even if I disagree.


11weeks
HEART IS BEATING (SINCE 18-25 DAYS)
BRAIN WAVES HAVE BEEN RECORDED AT 40 DAYS
THE BABY SQUINTS, SWALLOWS, AND CAN MAKE A FIST
THE BABY HAS FINGERPRINTS AND CAN KICK
THE BABY IS SENSITIVE TO HEAT, TOUCH, LIGHT AND NOISE
THE BABY SUCKS HIS OR HER THUMB
ALL BODY SYSTEMS ARE WORKING
THE BABY WEIGHS ABOUT 1 OUNCE AND IS 2 1/2 TO 3 INCHES LONG
THE BABY COULD FIT COMFORTABLY IN THE PALM OF YOUR HAND

Boy, we need to start a new thread on the abortion issue.

As for the above...well, let's just say 'The Silent Scream' was a very emotionally charged piece of propaganda already refuted by Planned Parenthood and other medical organizations and by some of my biology professors. The above statement "AT 11 WEEKS ALL BODY SYSTEMS ARE WORKING" can be instantly refuted by any website you care to go to on fetal development.  As for the other statements, some are true, but can also be applied to plants as well.

For the record, Dr Bernard Nathenson is a Born Again religious person, though he calls himself a Jewish atheist.   
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Shasta542 on October 20, 2007, 06:01:52 pm
Quote
As for the other statements, some are true, but can also be applied to plants as well.

 :'(
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 20, 2007, 06:02:40 pm
There is always going to be a measure of doubt for some people for anything.  Why should those doubts be focused upon?  It would be like focusing our justice system on the possiblity that we may be wrong.  While that is a possibility, we don't continually focus on our justice system that way.

If the doubt is great enough, a justice system that ignored it would scary as hell.

See, I don't see a problem here.  Why shouldn't her rights take priority?  It is her body.  That did not change.

Because what's at stake for her is about eight months of discomfort, a degree of emotional turmoil and a small risk (nowadays) of death. Not inconsequential, I know. But what's at stake for the fetus is certain death. If the mother and fetus shared exactly the same human status (not saying they DO, I'm saying IF), then the fetus' interests should arguably outweigh hers.

Quote
Potentiality isn't something one should base rights upon.  A woman may become pregnant, then spontaneously abort.  The potentiality came to naught.  Every pre-med student has the potential to be a doctor.  The fact that the majority don't make it through med school and get licensed is an extremely important distinction.

The first is not a human decision. The second is too trivial, in comparison with life and death, to make a good analogy.

Quote
So she can bring it into being, but as soon as she does, she no longer has control over it?

She does have control, perhaps as well as a degree of responsibility.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 20, 2007, 06:14:28 pm
If the doubt is great enough, a justice system that ignored it would scary as hell.

Ignore it?  Sure.  But we weren't discussing ignoring things.  We were discussing on what to focus on..

See, I don't see a problem here.  Why shouldn't her rights take priority?  It is her body.  That did not change.

Quote
Because what's at stake for her is about eight months of discomfort, a degree of emotional turmoil and a small risk (nowadays) of death.

Well, that depends on the woman doesn't it?  Your 8 months of discomfort, a degree of emotional turmoil and small risk is for someone else, 8 months of hell, illness and bed-riddenness with a possibility of diabetes, high blood pressure that could become an aneurysm (acquaintance had these risks during her last pregnancy).

Quote
Not inconsequential, I know. But what's at stake for the fetus is certain death. If the mother and fetus shared exactly the same human status (not saying they DO, I'm saying IF), then the fetus' interests should arguably outweigh hers.

IF the mother and fetus shared the same human status, why should the fetus' rights outweigh hers?  Both lives are at stake.  Unlike the fetus, the mother has many years invested in her life and she's risking her health and life and wellbeing.  Seems to me that her rights are no less important than the fetus'.

Quote
The first is not a human decision. The second is too trivial, in comparison with life and death, to make a good analogy.

She does have control, perhaps as well as a degree of responsibility.

Of course, a woman has a degree of responsibility.  When she has choices, she is trying to exercise it.  If she decides that a pregnancy is something she doesn't want/can't afford/deal with, she decides the responsible thing to do is end it.  Why is the government wanting to interfere with her making a responsible decision?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 20, 2007, 06:19:53 pm
:'(

 ???
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Mikaela on October 20, 2007, 07:24:46 pm
Changing the angle a little bit....

Having followed the discussion here from the sidelines, I've been put in mind of a couple of quotes by Sir Winston Churchill. No, he didn't speak about abortion, far as I know, but I'm drawing the analogy nevertheless. Here's the first one:

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

Replace "Democracy" with "Pro-choice" and "government" with "dealing with unplanned pregnancies", and you see what I'm getting at. In practical life, what would a strict so-called Pro-life solution lead to except an abundance of human tragedies? "Back to the knitting needles" - ie. unsafe and downright dangerous illicit abortions would flourish, with much greater risk to the mothers (especially poor mothers) and exactly the same outcome for the fetus as in legal abortions. Alternatively many children might be born into lives of misery or neglect (far from all children would be given up for adoption even if the mother would primarily have wanted an abortion), there would of necessity have to be penalties and punishment and social stigma and investigation of women who tried to circumvent the law through performing or having an abortion - whatever their reason for doing so. Raped girls and women would have to carry the reminder of the rape around for nine months at a in some cases not inconsiderable health risk to themselves.... and so forth and so on.  Is that really better? Better than showing each woman the respect of letting her make an informed decision and be legally in control of her own situation, her own body?

Even when taking at face value the pro-lifers' concern for the fetus as a human being with the full rights of a human being as the single ovverriding reason for their strict anti-abortion stance, I'd ask them to consider the following Churchill quote:

"However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on October 20, 2007, 07:45:15 pm
Interesting twists on the points. to clarify, here are some responses

2) of course laws inhibiting drug (legal and illiegal) use, unlawful operations, unnecessary operations, etc are about "bodily sovreignty". and being compelled to work at a job or occupation or trade that one does not want to is the same thing. They exist because government believes people can't make the right choices. The inability to view child bearing as something other than "bodily sovreignty rights" is the bias that inhibits another view outside the rigid pro choice, any time, any place, any reason mentality, I think.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a very trite argument I think...personally I have never heard of the government forcing a person to
remain in a job they hated in order to pay child support.  You have every right to change jobs...whenever.
You continue to bring the entire focus of this right into the realm of when or where a fetus becomes a
person..That is and will always be everyones individual decision.  As much as you want to make it a scientific
proof..It is like proving there is a god...You can never prove there is one to those who are non believers...and you cannot prove he doesnt exist either..its a philosophical question..not a factual one.. And as for the difficulties
that any woman goes thru before and after they choose, or dont choose to have an abortion..It has many
different questions to consider.  If you put societal and religious thoughts into the equation, it is only a more
difficult decision.  It is however usually the male dominated society that is telling women what and why they]
should not be allowed to have this choice..Starting with the Catholic churchs mandates...no abortions period..no birth control period, etc..it is a lot of the way it is carried forth.  It is thru teachings and further threats of hell and
damnation...All of these issues come to bear on her decision making.  She has enough to think about without all the rest of us getting the govt. involved...
      This always brings to mind the people that think the point of insemination  is the beginning of the
live or not live argument...  Ok then if that is the point of humaness, and it should not be allowed to be terminated.  Or discarded.  Why then do we not go one step further, and say that a man throwing his seed away is not the same thing.?  I just dont understand why people want or try to get involved in other peoples private
business.  And the Constitution itself gives us the right to "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.."  Isnt this
a part of that freedom.  It doesnt say unless, so and so is involved, or whenever others say its ok for you to do that.   Or are women supposed, no entitlement to that freedom...That they are unworthy, or not discerning enough to make these decisions on their own behalf..Along with their doctors...
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Brown Eyes on October 20, 2007, 09:44:11 pm
Well, From everything that I have read ( I'll see if I can find exact statistics) very few abortions are preformed due to life threatening circumstances.
While I agree, that it is a womans body, a choice should have been made earlier as to wether or not to have sex. It is not the childs fault the mother or father for that matter doesn't want it.Why destroy an innocent life for that reason? I know, people are going to say what if the woman had no choice IE rape. Well, those acount for one tenth of one percent of all abortions according to the NRLC.
Again, as terrible as it is, is it the childs fault? SHould we go kill the children of the rapist for what he did? No!

I wonder how many people who are pro choice would want prostitution legalized. After all, it is a wpmans body!
I'm not trying to be mean or disrespetful. I am for full equality for women.I just think taking an innocent life is wrong!
Sorry if I made anyone angry. This is just my opinion andI repect everyones opinion even if I disagree.


Honestly, I think you would possibly look at this whole situation differently if you had a female body.  I don't honestly think you understand how threatening an unwanted pregnancy is to a woman.  I don't think that most men actually understand what a pregnancy means in terms of pain, potential danger, etc.

Furthermore, as to the issue of the decision to have sex in the first place... where does the responsibility of the straight male reside in all of this?  This puts an incredibly huge and unfair burden on a straight female.  As a gay woman, I actually often count my blessings that an unwanted pregnancy is something I don't have to worry about when I'm with a partner.  I don't honestly know how difficult this issue might be for straight women, but I can imagine that it's a huge stress when it comes to sexual activity.  It's something men never have to worry about and it's completely unfair for a man to impose his abstract set of rules on a woman who has to actually, physically bear the burden of those rules.  Only the woman should have the right to decide what happens to her own body during and after sexual intercourse.  And, again, even though I'm gay, I'll fight tooth-and-nail for the rights of straight women to control their own bodies... that's what this comes down to in my opinion.

The idea that a woman should be expected to carry the fetus of a rapist is really dismissive of what it means to be a victim of rape.  And, who is ANYONE to tell a rape victim that she has to do such a thing? The whole question of rape and what that means cannot be brushed aside so easily.

I also think raising the issue of prostitution in relation to the pro-choice issue is really offensive and off-topic.  Anyway, some prostitutes are men.

Equal rights for women, as you bring up, involve a woman having just as much control over her own body (not-pregnant or pregnant) as a man has over his.  Only a woman can make these decisions for herself... without the interference of the government or abstract, external ideals set down by other people who have nothing to do with her own life.  There are lots of women who would never have an abortion for lots of reasons.  And there are women whose lives depend on the option of having an abortion, for lots of reasons.  Again, true equal rights for women... if you believe that women have equal rights means that you trust them to make their OWN decisions.


And, for the record, as far as I'm concerned a fetus that is not-viable outside of a woman's womb is not a child and in no way has similar rights as the mother.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: injest on October 20, 2007, 10:16:18 pm
Well, From everything that I have read ( I'll see if I can find exact statistics) very few abortions are preformed due to life threatening circumstances.
While I agree, that it is a womans body, a choice should have been made earlier as to wether or not to have sex. It is not the childs fault the mother or father for that matter doesn't want it.Why destroy an innocent life for that reason? I know, people are going to say what if the woman had no choice IE rape. Well, those acount for one tenth of one percent of all abortions according to the NRLC.
Again, as terrible as it is, is it the childs fault? SHould we go kill the children of the rapist for what he did? No!With as many couples treying to adopt it seems like a no brainer to me.
When does the right of the child come into play here? It is not a painless procedure for the child.
Dr Bernard Nathenson, an abortinist, filmed the abortion of an 11wk old inborn child. The child tried to get away from the light and as the procedure started could be viewed in what can only be described as a scream from the pain of the procedure.
I don't understand how people who are against the death penalty can view this as ok. As to the death penalty an adullt made a concious decision to take another life knowing the consequences of that action. Death is the punishment for said actions. In an abortion, an innocent child is either dismembered and sucked into a specimin jar or sink or burnt with a saline solution and forced out the birth canal! Both are barberic and both are done only because the child is not wanted for whatever reason.
I wonder how many people who are pro choice would want prostitution legalized. After all, it is a wpmans body!
I'm not trying to be mean or disrespetful. I am for full equality for women.I just think taking an innocent life is wrong!
Sorry if I made anyone angry. This is just my opinion andI repect everyones opinion even if I disagree.


11weeks
HEART IS BEATING (SINCE 18-25 DAYS)
BRAIN WAVES HAVE BEEN RECORDED AT 40 DAYS
THE BABY SQUINTS, SWALLOWS, AND CAN MAKE A FIST
THE BABY HAS FINGERPRINTS AND CAN KICK
THE BABY IS SENSITIVE TO HEAT, TOUCH, LIGHT AND NOISE
THE BABY SUCKS HIS OR HER THUMB
ALL BODY SYSTEMS ARE WORKING
THE BABY WEIGHS ABOUT 1 OUNCE AND IS 2 1/2 TO 3 INCHES LONG
THE BABY COULD FIT COMFORTABLY IN THE PALM OF YOUR HAND




lovely. So you think a baby is a living full person inside a mother...yet you want that fully human baby to live for nine months inside a woman that HATES it. You want it born to know it is the product of its mother's shame and pain...and its father is a rapist?

and the woman has to spend nine months watching her body being violated? Breasts sagging, stretch marks, vomiting....only to have hovering over her the knowledge that at the END of the nine months she will have to go thru the worst pain humans experience?

this is the reason why rape has become a favorite tactic for militias in third world countries....rape, the violence that keeps on giving.
 

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Brown Eyes on October 20, 2007, 10:26:10 pm
I think expecting a rape victim to carry the rapist's child with NO CHOICE in the matter (imagining a world where abortion would be dis-allowed to a rape victim) is simply re-victimization.


I also often wonder, from the perspective of people who are anti-choice... how far they'd be willing to go in forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies.  In an anti-choice world... should women who have abortions be sent to prison?  Should doctors be sent to prison?  If a pregnant woman was known to desire an abortion, should she be locked up for 9 months under constant supervision to make sure she carried the fetus to term to make sure she would be unable/not allowed to find ways to induce an abortion?  I really am curious about how extreme the measures would be from an anti-choice perspective.


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 20, 2007, 11:03:12 pm
I think expecting a rape victim to carry the rapist's child with NO CHOICE in the matter (imagining a world where abortion would be dis-allowed to a rape victim) is simply re-victimization.

Absolutely.

Quote
I also often wonder, from the perspective of people who are anti-choice... how far they'd be willing to go in forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies.  In an anti-choice world... should women who have abortions be sent to prison?  Should doctors be sent to prison?  If a pregnant woman was known to desire an abortion, should she be locked up for 9 months under constant supervision to make sure she carried the fetus to term to make sure she would be unable/not allowed to find ways to induce an abortion?  I really am curious about how extreme the measures would be from an anti-choice perspective.

Excellent point.  From what I've heard from my pro-life, anti-choice right wing friends - both men - they're all for imprisoning a pregnant woman for child endangerment if she so much as has a glass of wine or keeps smoking.

Of course, men can damage their sperm with their less than healthy life habits and impregnate a woman with their poor quality sperm and possibly add to a child's birth defects, but men have never wanted to put any restrictions on their behavior. 
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 20, 2007, 11:07:03 pm
lovely. So you think a baby is a living full person inside a mother...yet you want that fully human baby to live for nine months inside a woman that HATES it. You want it born to know it is the product of its mother's shame and pain...and its father is a rapist?

and the woman has to spend nine months watching her body being violated? Breasts sagging, stretch marks, vomiting....only to have hovering over her the knowledge that at the END of the nine months she will have to go thru the worst pain humans experience?

this is the reason why rape has become a favorite tactic for militias in third world countries....rape, the violence that keeps on giving.

Ouch!  Awesome point, Jess.  This especially happens in areas where a woman pregnant out of wedlock instantly condemns her as unmarriagable and to 'damaged goods' status even though she was the victim, where abortion is not an easily available option and if a woman does choose to get one, is yet another black mark against her.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Brown Eyes on October 20, 2007, 11:09:18 pm
Ouch!  Awesome point, Jess.  This especially happens in areas where a woman pregnant out of wedlock instantly condemns her as unmarriagable and to 'damaged goods' status even though she was the victim, where abortion is not an easily available option and if a woman does choose to get one, is yet another black mark against her.

I also agree that this is a good point.  And a really sad and scary crime.
 :( :( :'( >:( :(
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Mikaela on October 21, 2007, 05:57:58 am
As a follow-up to the last posts here...

A few of years back I watched a BBC documentary on the effects of the Catholic Church's ban on abortion *and* contraception, specifically in poor countries in Latin America. It made a strong impression on me and made a number of thought-provoking (to say the least) points - but what unquestionably made the most impression were the stories about the very young girls who had been raped and were subsequently denied abortion.

There was one young girl - she was as I recall 11 years old (possibly 10?), and her body clearly not developed enough to go through a pregnancy without severe risk to her life and health. She had been raped, and had become pregnant. Luckily she had parents who stood by her and fought for her (the father spoke for the family in the program). They had appealed for her to be given an abortion due to risk of her life, but was denied, as the country in question (Central America, I forget which country) strictly follows the Catholic view on this. Her case and request that she be granted an abortion went all the way to Rome and it really was "illuminating" (as in infuriating to the umpteenth degree) to watch this elderly smug-looking high cleric commenting on the case and explaining why this little girl should have been made to go through with the pregnancy. Should have been made to carry the child of her rapist and risking her life when giving birth to it.

Well, in that case the parents actually broke with the church and somehow managed to secure an abortion for their daughter. They were bitter, and spoke with condemnation of the church, - which is surely not an easy thing to do where they live.

The documentary also let us meet a small group of 14/15-year old girls from the same area. All the girls were mothers already. They were in a support shelter, - had previously been sexually abused by relatives (normally their fathers) - had become pregnant, and had had no option but to carry the child, their sibling - to term.

These are relevant stories IMO to consider before adopting a strict "Pro-life" stance.





Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: injest on October 21, 2007, 07:13:19 am
Yes, we have this rosy view of childbirth. That every woman looking for an abortion is a selfish white woman with resources....and if carried to term the child will be born perfect and white and cute and there would be a line of loving parents BEGGING to adopt it.

The reality is different. Sure there are a bunch of couples out there looking for babies...but they don't want a handicapped, mentally challenged child. Or a crack baby.

And how many of these people that are so concerned about abortioin have adopted the children that are already here?

And suppose we do require all these aborted babies to be born? Typically the Pro Lifer's are Republicans (who are against social programs) sooo....what happens to the babies? Are we going to force poor women to surrender their babies or should we let them starve? Otherwise we are going to have to supplement their families...

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 21, 2007, 01:33:43 pm
Yes, we have this rosy view of childbirth. That every woman looking for an abortion is a selfish white woman with resources....and if carried to term the child will be born perfect and white and cute and there would be a line of loving parents BEGGING to adopt it.

The reality is different. Sure there are a bunch of couples out there looking for babies...but they don't want a handicapped, mentally challenged child. Or a crack baby.

Or an older child or an ethnic child for the most part.

Quote
And how many of these people that are so concerned about abortioin have adopted the children that are already here?

And suppose we do require all these aborted babies to be born? Typically the Pro Lifer's are Republicans (who are against social programs) sooo....what happens to the babies? Are we going to force poor women to surrender their babies or should we let them starve? Otherwise we are going to have to supplement their families...

And here is where the judging and gender-bias comes in, Jess.

When I and a friend were debating the abortion issue with my two male Right Wing friends, one Born Again, the other giving lip-service to his religious beliefs, my friend said,

"OK, so you don't support sex education, Planned Parenthood Clinics or any social programs that help parentless children/unwed mothers, but you're all for forcing me to have this child (hypothetically) and me picking up the bill for it even if I don't want it.  What was I supposed to do?"

His answer?

Well, as a single, unwed adult/near adult woman, she was NOT supposed to be having sex in the first place.  She was supposed to be 'waiting' to be made an honest woman, guarding her virginity like an Old Testament heroine, waiting for the 'right' man.  And if he didn't show up?  Oh, well, too bad for you, be celibate your whole life.

This is also why my Born Again friend was all for letting AIDs take its course.  After all, if these gay men weren't having promiscuous 'wrong' sex, the plague would have never spread.  If they're gay and know they have the 'wrong' tendencies, they too should have remained celibate.  >:( >:( >:(

Yeah, he's a fucking idiot now that he's sown his wild oats without mishap and then was Born Again, safely married with children and can now condemn others for doing what he did. Do as I say, not as I do.

Abstinence is a solution, to be sure.  However, it's a completely impractical one.  NO one, is going to abstain for very long unless they have other goals in life.  When the new Pope was being installed, I think someone on this board or I read it somewhere, reported how Italy was the biggest supporter of the Pope and the Catholic Church...but how they also had the lowest out of wedlock birthrate in Europe.

My Born Again friend assumed this was due to abstinence as per the Catholic dogma.

  ::)  Yeah, right.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Mikaela on October 21, 2007, 01:53:20 pm
"OK, so you don't support sex education, Planned Parenthood Clinics or any social programs that help parentless children/unwed mothers, but you're all for forcing me to have this child (hypothetically) and me picking up the bill for it even if I don't want it.  What was I supposed to do?"

His answer?

Well, as a single, unwed adult/near adult woman, she was NOT supposed to be having sex in the first place.  She was supposed to be 'waiting' to be made an honest woman.

This kind of opinion, combined with several of the major religions' condemnation of and work against the availability of contraception, is the reason why I see much of the "pro-life" activities as directly tied to attempts to take control of women's bodies and sexuality away from the women themselves. (Heck, in many parts of the world these are not just attempts - they're quite successful...  :-\ >:(  )

Quote
I think someone on this board or I read it somewhere, reported how Italy was the biggest supporter of the Pope and the Catholic Church...but how they also had the lowest out of wedlock birthrate in Europe.
Italy also has one of the lowest in-wedlock birthrates in Europe. Which points to Italian women taking charge of and controlling their fertility in and out of wedlock, whatever the Catholic Church has to say about it. Italy is known to be the country in Western Europe with the poorest social rights for women with small children; low kindergarten availability coverage, very limited maternity leave with pay, etc. The governmental attitude has been that once married, women are to stay at home and have babies. Italian women however have other ideas, and live their lives accordingly. Which clearly shows that women can be trusted to make informed and responsible choices concerning their own bodies and reproduction, if anyone were to doubt that...
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: moremojo on October 22, 2007, 10:05:49 am
Might as well weigh in on my own thoughts on abortion, as the thread has come to include that topic. I support a woman's right to abort her developing baby within reasonable parameters (that is to say, before the fetus can live viably outside the mother's body), but I do have qualms about what people are doing with abortion, and how they rationalize it.

Much of the argument in support of the right to abortion hinges on the concept of personhood (louise, I noticed above, invoked the idea of a soul). When does a person come into being? There is no easy answer to this, and because of this very fact, I think we should approach abortion with caution and humility, acknowledging the possibility that we might be extinguishing a distinct human being in the process. We certainly know that a potential human being is being snuffed out of viability.

A good friend of mine emphasizes the humanity of the fetus, while supporting legal access to abortion. He argues that we should consider not the personhood of the fetus (which to my understanding he tacitly recognizes), but rather the question of whether it is ever appropriate to kill human lives. I think he and I would both agree that in some circumstances killing must be permitted. Truly defensive war would be an immediate example that comes to my mind (think of how necessary it was to meet Hitler's violence with violence), and I think my friend would join me in submitting that legalized abortion is another.

There is a part of me that wonders if abortion may actually be doing the world more favors than we realize. By sparing these unborn children the suffering that is inherent in life, they may actually become luckier than those of us who are expelled from the womb into a frequently pitiless world.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 22, 2007, 10:21:19 am
I've been put in mind of a couple of quotes by Sir Winston Churchill. No, he didn't speak about abortion, far as I know, but I'm drawing the analogy nevertheless. Here's the first one:

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

Replace "Democracy" with "Pro-choice" and "government" with "dealing with unplanned pregnancies", and you see what I'm getting at. In practical life, what would a strict so-called Pro-life solution lead to except an abundance of human tragedies?

I like this way of thinking about it.

I think here's what it comes down to, for me. I can understand the attitudes of abortion opponents, can see how it's possible to believe that abortion extinguishes a human life, or at least something close enough to one that it's morally wrong to mess with it.

But in the end, my understanding of those arguments is purely intellectual or academic. I don't really feel them. My gut's not in it. What my gut tells me is that extinguishing a mass of cells that that couldn't survive on its own and isn't aware of its own existence -- even if it, as the pro-life people are always saying, has a beating heart or part of a brain or moves its legs or whatever -- is not an evil thing to do. Or if it is, it's a mild and sometimes necessary evil.



Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Brown Eyes on October 22, 2007, 12:49:29 pm
This extended discussion about abortion rights has turned out to be really fascinating.  I wonder if it should be spun out into its own thread at this point, since it's a bit off-topic from the original question of this thread.

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Scott6373 on October 22, 2007, 01:04:35 pm
I don't really feel them. My gut's not in it. What my gut tells me is that extinguishing a mass of cells that that couldn't survive on its own


But...when does that "mass of cells that coudn't survive on its own" become a life?  Can, or even should we adjudicate that moment.  Do we apply modern medical technology to this argument and say, once a fetus has reached the point that it can be sustained artifically until it has grown to a sufficient point that it can survive on its own?  Most everyone here knows me as a very liberal thinking individual, but there is something inherently disturbing in this debate.  Do we set ourselves so high as to determine when life begins?

...and isn't aware of its own existence --


Do we know this for a fact?  Are we certain beyond the shadow of a doubt?  We have set that as our judicial standard for killing criminals.  Why should we not apply it here?

Or if it is, it's a mild and sometimes necessary evil.


No such thing.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 22, 2007, 01:07:46 pm
That's good idea, if people feel like they have more to say. I was just thinking how odd it was to click on a thread about the death penalty and know I'd be likely to find people discussing abortion.

I'm glad that it started here, though, because it gave an opportunity to examine what many see as an apparent (though, IMO, not real) philosophical conflict between supporting abortion rights and opposing the death penalty, or vise versa.

Another possibility would be to change the name of the thread, but that would be tricky because it's a poll, and then would we add polling questions about abortion, or what? Actually, it would be interesting to see how many are for or against both things, versus how many are for one and against the other. My suspicion is that the majority here would fall into the latter group: pro-death penalty/anti-abortion or pro-choice/anti-death penalty.

David, what do you think? About the new thread, I mean.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 22, 2007, 01:40:18 pm
But...when does that "mass of cells that coudn't survive on its own" become a life?

Well, I think it's a life from the point where the egg and sperm merge. But lots of things are "life" that I have no problem killing: cows, chickens, fish, mosquitoes, carrots ... The question is, when does it become life with the status and rights of a human being?

Quote
  Most everyone here knows me as a very liberal thinking individual, but there is something inherently disturbing in this debate.  Do we set ourselves so high as to determine when life begins?

Isn't that the whole problem? Scott, I think the fact that you find something disturbing in this debate puts you in league with most people. That's why this discussion is so difficult and unresolved.

Quote
Do we know this for a fact?  Are we certain beyond the shadow of a doubt?

No. I was talking about my gut feeling, not my scientific knowledge. Science is years away from knowing this. And besides, awareness of its existence is only one factor in the human rights' discussion -- not necessarily the deciding one. A frog, I'm guessing, is probably more aware of its own existence than a fetus is. It can feed itself, it can see, it can move from one place to another, it can interact with other beings, it can take action to avoid danger. But so far, we haven't granted human rights to frogs. 

Quote
We have set that as our judicial standard for killing criminals.  Why should we not apply it here?

Because criminals and fetuses are two different things, and we're not obliged to treat them the same.

Quote
No such thing.

Well, good for you. Me, I commit them on a regular basis. For example, I think it's wrong to lie, and yet, rarely but occasionally, I do -- thus, a mild and sometimes necessary evil.  I think war and killing are evil, and yet I'd advocate them when confronted with a Hitler -- unquestionably necessary, though perhaps not mild.

Scott, unless science somehow develops light years beyond where it is now and comes up with some whole new paradigm, there is no way to determine to everyone's satisfaction that killing a fetus is not wrong. So then we're faced with all the problems mentioned above. Outlaw it and you have a bunch of women dying of back-alley abortions. And women and young girls forced to carry babies conceived through rape or incest, sometimes resulting in life-ruining health problems -- another evil, and not a mild one.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Scott6373 on October 22, 2007, 01:52:35 pm
Well, good for you. Me, I commit them on a regular basis. For example, I think it's wrong to lie, and yet, rarely but occasionally, I do -- thus, a mild and sometimes necessary evil.  I think war and killing are evil, and yet I'd advocate them when confronted with a Hitler -- unquestionably necessary, though perhaps not mild.


I don't recall setting myself up as some example of a non-evil (mild or otherwise) doing human being.  I simply said there is no such thing as a necessary evil.  Simple statement, because there is no such thing as necessary chosen behavior.  There are always other choices, we just choose to ignore them most of the time.

The question of abortion has always been a difficult one for me, and I have never publicly stated to anyone whether I am for or against it...until now.  I don't think abortion should be illegal.  I think there are very valid medical and social reason to have this avenue open to women, but...and you had to know this was coming;  Abortion is far to available of a choice.  It makes it much to easy to abdicate responsability for one's own actions.  I am still in process on this issue, so...that's all I can say.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 22, 2007, 02:09:31 pm
I don't recall setting myself up as some example of a non-evil (mild or otherwise) doing human being.  I simply said there is no such thing as a necessary evil.

OK, sorry. Maybe we're talking semantics. What I meant was that, when faced with two evils -- go to war and kill vs. let Hitler go unchecked, for example -- you have to choose one. You can't not choose, because if you don't pick one the other will prevail. You become a passive enabler of evil. So whichever one you pick becomes the necessary evil.



Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Brown Eyes on October 22, 2007, 02:19:56 pm
Abortion is far to available of a choice.  It makes it much to easy to abdicate responsability for one's own actions. 

I think there's nothing particularly easy about obtaining an abortion in our society even if it is legal... nevermind any level of personal turmoil and psychological distress that might be involved for the woman making the decision.

And the whole question of personal responsibility goes right back to the whole question of where the responsibility of the straight man lies in all of this.  The burden of this type of dilemma... an unwanted pregnancy... will always fall much harder on the woman (simply because it's her own body... and pain and agony involved in the pregnancy and/or abortion).  If contraceptives were 100% effective and the burden of contraception feel *equally* on both the male and the female partner the whole question of personal responsibility might be easier for me to deal with in this context.  Saying that an unwanted pregnancy has something to do with lack of personal responsibility on the part of the female partner is not fair.  She just bears the physical consequences and turmoil in her life (given an unwanted pregnancy) that her male partner would never have to endure even if his personal responsibility in the situation was just as lacking.



Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Scott6373 on October 22, 2007, 02:33:03 pm
I think there's nothing particularly easy about obtaining an abortion in our society even if it is legal... nevermind any level of personal turmoil and psychological distress that might be involved for the woman making the decision.

And the whole question of personal responsibility goes right back to the whole question of where the responsibility of the straight man lies in all of this.  The burden of this type of dilemma... an unwanted pregnancy... will always fall much harder on the woman (simply because it's her own body... and pain and agony involved in the pregnancy and/or abortion).  If contraceptives were 100% effective and the burden of contraception feel *equally* on both the male and the female partner the whole question of personal responsibility might be easier for me to deal with in this context.  Saying that an unwanted pregnancy has something to do with lack of personal responsibility on the part of the female partner is not fair.  She just bears the physical consequences and turmoil in her life (given an unwanted pregnancy) that her male partner would never have to endure even if his personal responsibility in the situation was just as lacking.


I didn't say that an unwanted pregnancy has something to do with lack of personal responsibility on the part of the female partner specifically, and I do agree that is much easier for the man to walk away with little or no emotional or physical expense, so how do we change that?

I have worked in healthcare long enough to know that yes, that procedure is readily available for any woman, anytime she chooses to have it performed.  Perhaps I should have said that abortion should be a matter of necessity, not convenience, and no, I am not saying that all women who get abortions get them because carrying the baby to term would be inconvenient, but can you say that is the case 100% of the time, and what would be your acceptable losses?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: louisev on October 22, 2007, 02:45:09 pm
The idea that abortion is readily available anytime for any woman is simply not true.  It is not covered by many health care plans, it is not supported by public funds except in limited circumstances and in particular states, and is not available to Medicaid recipients in states where the Hyde Amendment holds sway (27 states). the Hyde Amendment states that public funds can only be used for abortion in cases of rape, incest, or where a threat exists to the health of the mother.

And that having been said, this is only with regard to the USA.  From a fact sheet on abortion and public funding:

The Guttmacher Institute has found that 20-35% of Medicaid-eligible women who would choose abortion carry their pregnancies to term when public funds are not available.


Source:  http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/public_funding.html
from the National Abortion Federation

Worldwide,   25% of all nations only permit abortion in the case of saving the mother"s life, or prohibit it completely.

Source:  http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/ib_0599.html

So - is abortion widely available to any woman who wants one?  Not by a longshot.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: loneleeb3 on October 22, 2007, 02:53:40 pm
Quote
I do agree that is much easier for the man to walk away with little or no emotional or physical expense, so how do we change that?
if  a man Wants the child and the woman doesn't, TFB! The man has no say. The woman can destroy his child if she wants to.
If the woman chooses to keep the Child and the man doesn't want it, she can drag him into court and he is forced to pay for the child until said child is 18. TFB for the man. The man has no say at all.  I don't think that's right.


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 22, 2007, 02:54:39 pm
Perhaps I should have said that abortion should be a matter of necessity, not convenience, and no, I am not saying that all women who get abortions get them because carrying the baby to term would be inconvenient, but can you say that is the case 100% of the time, and what would be your acceptable losses?

Well, but who would get to judge which is which? One person's necessity (I have to have an abortion because if I'm pregnant I'll have to drop out of school) is someone else's convenience (You can have the baby, give it up for adoption, and go back to school afterward). How many pregnancies, short of health crises or maybe rape/incest, couldn't conceivably be labeled either way, depending on the beholder? On the one hand, any complicating circumstances can conceivably be dealt with somehow. On the other, enduring any unwanted pregnancy inevitably goes far beyond an "inconvenience."

Plus, this just takes us back to the necessary-evil, unresolved-argument thing. If abortion is wrong enough that we strive to limit it to more "necessary" cases, how is it not just plain wrong period? Is it OK to commit some murders as long as they're deemed "necessary" and you try to limit the total (well, I guess the Bush administration would say so, judging from their actions in Iraq, and they don't even seem all that careful about limiting)?




Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Scott6373 on October 22, 2007, 02:57:51 pm
This has all been very enlightening to me.  It has helped crytsalize how I feel on the subject.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 22, 2007, 03:03:01 pm
Interesting twists on the points. to clarify, here are some responses

2) of course laws inhibiting drug (legal and illiegal) use, unlawful operations, unnecessary operations, etc are about "bodily sovreignty". and being compelled to work at a job or occupation or trade that one does not want to is the same thing. They exist because government believes people can't make the right choices. The inability to view child bearing as something other than "bodily sovreignty rights" is the bias that inhibits another view outside the rigid pro choice, any time, any place, any reason mentality, I think.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a very trite argument I think...personally I have never heard of the government forcing a person to
remain in a job they hated in order to pay child support.  You have every right to change jobs...whenever.
You continue to bring the entire focus of this right into the realm of when or where a fetus becomes a
person..That is and will always be everyones individual decision.  As much as you want to make it a scientific
proof..It is like proving there is a god...You can never prove there is one to those who are non believers...and you cannot prove he doesnt exist either..its a philosophical question..not a factual one.. And as for the difficulties
that any woman goes thru before and after they choose, or dont choose to have an abortion..It has many
different questions to consider.  If you put societal and religious thoughts into the equation, it is only a more
difficult decision.  It is however usually the male dominated society that is telling women what and why they]
should not be allowed to have this choice..Starting with the Catholic churchs mandates...no abortions period..no birth control period, etc..it is a lot of the way it is carried forth.  It is thru teachings and further threats of hell and
damnation...All of these issues come to bear on her decision making.  She has enough to think about without all the rest of us getting the govt. involved...
      This always brings to mind the people that think the point of insemination  is the beginning of the
live or not live argument...  Ok then if that is the point of humaness, and it should not be allowed to be terminated.  Or discarded.  Why then do we not go one step further, and say that a man throwing his seed away is not the same thing.?  I just dont understand why people want or try to get involved in other peoples private
business.  And the Constitution itself gives us the right to "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.."  Isnt this
a part of that freedom.  It doesnt say unless, so and so is involved, or whenever others say its ok for you to do that.   Or are women supposed, no entitlement to that freedom...That they are unworthy, or not discerning enough to make these decisions on their own behalf..Along with their doctors...


I think the comparative is not trite at all. Rather, I find it unfortunately disingenuous to define the "sovereignty" of a woman's body relative to the baby within it and arbitrarily deny the overwhelming evidence that all our bodies are not sovereign to goverment regulation on many levels. This seems much more a functiuon of selective perception that an realistic view of how regulatory statutes affect how people use and can't use their bodies.

You continue to bring the entire focus of this right into the realm of when or where a fetus becomes a
person..That is and will always be everyones individual decision.


Of course we bring the focus to this level! To have missed this as the key part of the discussion for several decades is to have missed the main issue. We are not a nation, nor a culture, nor a civilization of iindividuals making up their own guidelines in total. All sociaties have structure. I admit the pro abortion group chooses to identify the unborn and non-human and outside the realm of societal concern, but that IS the debate.

If a fetus is not a person, I heartily object to my insurance dollars and tax dollars paying for health care for non-persons.


It is however usually the male dominated society that is telling women what and why they]
should not be allowed to have this choice

I think this victimization-at-the-hands-of-men approach is both factally incorrect and misleading. The Supreme court was all male when Roe v Wade was decided upon. The rights provided to women per that case ELIMINATE the right to fatherhood and guarantee the right to motherhood. Only women, not men, have a say in the life or death of the unborn, regardliess of marital status, or anything else. That is hardly a policy suggesting male-domination. All the power in this regard is, and has been, in the hands of women.

And that is what many are debating. 100% independent choice with no restrictions is not good, not fair, and clearly not in line with a society that cherishes life.

by the by...some posters have suggested that anyone can simply go to a hospital and have any surgical procedure done upon request. This is most definitely not the case. Any accredited hospital and their procedures are regulated by statute.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Scott6373 on October 22, 2007, 03:13:46 pm

by the by...some posters have suggested that anyone can simply go to a hospital and have any surgical procedure done upon request. This is most definitely not the case. Any accredited hospital and their procedures are regulated by statute.

That's actually correct and incorrect.  Naturally, it would have to be orderred by and done by a qualified physician, but in the USA, if you belong to the middle class, you work and get your insurance through your employer.  90% of thrid party payors cover pregnancy termination with the approval of the members's primary care physician, and I can say with a certain surety, that most PCP's give approval whenever asked.  Medicaid recipients are another story, but you would be surprised at how easily even themost heavily regulated procedures are obtained.  An example;  A patient at one office, who was on Medicaid decided she wanted to have another child.  In Massachusetts, there are limits on how many children you can have and still remain no the welfare/Medcaid rolls.  She had difficulty getting pregnant, and insisted that Mediciad pay for fertility treatments.  She gave birth to twins.  Any rule can be bent, and often is.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: David In Indy on October 22, 2007, 03:29:12 pm
I'm confused, and I have some mixed feelings about when a fetus becomes a human, and I admit I'm not sure of the answer. But if a fetus is NOT a human being, why did they convict Scott Peterson of a double murder when he killed his wife and her unborn child. It seems to me if a fetus is NOT a human, he should have only been convicted for the murder of his wife. Don't you agree? It's almost as if a double standard is at play here.  ???
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Scott6373 on October 22, 2007, 03:37:18 pm
...and geting on track...I am against the death penalty, despite my stand on life rights as they pertain to abortion.  Thanks heavens I registered as Independant!!  I'm just to the left of right as long as the right isn't too far from the middle and the left isn't making me give up caviar and plastic trash bags.  I am as politically confused as Hillary and Rudy...holy crap!
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: loneleeb3 on October 22, 2007, 03:41:04 pm
I'm confused, and I have some mixed feelings about when a fetus becomes a human, and I admit I'm not sure of the answer. But if a fetus is NOT a human being, why did they convict Scott Peterson of a double murder when he killed his wife and her unborn child. It seems to me if a fetus is NOT a human, he should have only been convicted of the murder of his wife. Don't you agree? It's almost as if a double standard is at play here.  ???
It is a double standard. If the woman wants it then it is a child if the woman doesn't want it, it's a fetus or mass of cells.
Truth is no baby can live outside the womb even at 9 months. It has to be cared for. The most premature baby was only 21weeks old gestationnaly and was smaller than an ink pen. Yet she lived.
My dauhter was born at 29weeks. We were given the option to terminate the pregnancy if we wanted too. I was flabbergasted! I told that nurse to never mention tht to us again. The next day we had a 3lb baby girl.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 22, 2007, 07:22:20 pm
I'm confused, and I have some mixed feelings about when a fetus becomes a human, and I admit I'm not sure of the answer. But if a fetus is NOT a human being, why did they convict Scott Peterson of a double murder when he killed his wife and her unborn child. It seems to me if a fetus is NOT a human, he should have only been convicted for the murder of his wife. Don't you agree? It's almost as if a double standard is at play here.  ???

David, the difference is viability outside the womb.  As I stated in my earlier post Scott Peterson got tried for 2 murders because his unborn child was far enough along to have survived outside the womb on its own.  Presumably without the intense medical care needed for some preemies (some preemies are born so premature that not so long ago, the child would not have survived.  That is nature trying to take its natural course).  I'm not sure of the exact criteria.

So what I get from all of the last few messages is that we're not so much arguing a woman's choice is when a fetus becomes a person.

When a baby gets a 'soul' if such a thing exists, is a metaphysical question and science is never going to be able to answer it because it's not a measurable quantity.

What makes someone a person IMO is easier to answer.

If the Terri Schiavo case taught us anything , it was that a human can smile, grimace, be sensitive to light, breathe, defecate, open and close their eyes and still be just as gone as if she were six foot under.

Scientific testing has demonstrated that the cerebral cortex (where the brain houses higher thought processes, including consciousness, intellect, memories, and feelings) is where the who of someone is.  Once that area of the brain is gone - or in the case of the fetus - doesn't yet exist - literally, the lights are on, but no one is home.  The body is just an electrochemical bag of meat going through the processes and automated actions of coded cells.

And that pretty much is a place where we can draw the line.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on October 22, 2007, 10:27:10 pm



    I agree it is easy to get an abortion these days, with the help of your doctor.. But with the trend that
is going on now.  It is going to be more and more difficult. There is a situation that is occuring gradually
across this country..Not spoken of by many people, and I only found it out by accident..  There are many
hospitals these days "combining the administrative cost.."  For the obvious result of cheapening the cost of
the care.. The thing however is going on across this country..and if you do your homework, you will find, that
many of these activities are a Catholic hospital, which is of course in a tax free situation, making it better also.
But in every case I have seen there is a case where after the joiniing the second hospital that had allowed
people to have abortions, no longer allowed them because they were then under the auspicis of the Catholic
hospital and its precepts.  So since they couldnt achieve the no abortions thru legislation, they can do it thru
this kind of actions...I know some will see this as either as anti catholic..not true..many members of my family are
Catholic..my daughter works for a Catholic hospital....You may then think I see trouble and conspiricy where none
exist..also not true..I just see a trend that is going in a certain direction, and the results are obvious..So call me
whatever you like...I have probably been called worse...Its a result of giving your opinion...
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 22, 2007, 11:35:15 pm
Not to open a whole new can of worms -- maybe we should call this the controversy thread, or the "what is killing" thread -- but I wonder how many abortion opponents are in favor of the war in Iraq. Many, I would guess, in "real life." But how about here? If it's wrong to destroy an innocent unborn life, is it wrong to destroy an innocent Iraqi civilian?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Brokeback_Dev on October 23, 2007, 12:45:38 am
dammit this thread has me so pissed off.  We are discussing some emotionally charged topics here.  No its not all right to kill an innocent Iraqi civilian and no a fetus is not a blob of cells either..  I dont write as articulate as most of the folks here, but ive been tuning in and reading.. Death penalty, abortion, war all very difficult topics to debate.  Im sure its one that we can go on and on and on about.  At least we can disagree without being disagreeable.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Brokeback_Dev on October 23, 2007, 12:59:46 am
There's one thing that I witnessed that horrified me.  There was a scene going on between two 20 somethings back when i was twenty something.. and the girl got pregnant by her boyfriend,  and he was screaming and yelling and throwing a damn fit.  He was demanding she get an abortion pushing her and just being a real jerk.  It really upset me because I know that girl didnt want to give up her baby.  And some of you have said that if a woman gets pregnant and chooses to have the kid and forces the FATHER to pay child support for 18 years that they are so wrong.  Well Ill tell you what it takes two people to make a baby.
A father and a mother.. No one should be forced to have an abortion by a man or gov't.  It is for a woman and hopefully a man together to decided.   In my case way back when i had my abortion, the love of my life soon was out of my life..maybe because I killed his baby.  Men want to have kids too.  If he would have told me, honey lets have this baby, things may have been different.  I guess in all honesty seeing it in black and white, I guess, as I assumed then, it didnt matter to him.   See there's all different sides to this coin..  Just my 2 cents
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Brokeback_Dev on October 23, 2007, 01:03:02 am
yes we are talking about things that are very close to the bone aren't we?

I hope you know, Dev that we are not in ANY way talking about you or your decisions....we are talking big picture. I feel for you and believe you did the best you could at the time. We all have things in our lifes we wish we could revisit. Lort knows I do.

You know we love you here Dev.

{{{{Dev}}}}

I am sorry you are upset.

and I am glad you spoke up about your feelings. how can I help?

Thanks for the Hugs Jess.  Its good to have my fellow brokies in my life..
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 23, 2007, 01:06:46 am
There's one thing that I witnessed that horrified me.  There was a scene going on between two 20 somethings back when i was twenty something.. and the girl got pregnant by her boyfriend,  and he was screaming and yelling and throwing a damn fit.  He was demanding she get an abortion pushing her and just being a real jerk.  It really upset me because I know that girl didnt want to give up her baby.  And some of you have said that if a woman gets pregnant and chooses to have the kid and forces the FATHER to pay child support for 18 years that they are so wrong.  Well Ill tell you what it takes two people to make a baby.
A father and a mother.. No one should be forced to have an abortion by a man or gov't.  It is for a woman and hopefully a man together to decided.   In my case way back when i had my abortion, the love of my life soon was out of my life..maybe because I killed his baby.  Men want to have kids too.  If he would have told me, honey lets have this baby, things may have been different.  I guess in all honesty seeing it in black and white, I guess, as I assumed then, it didnt matter to him.   See there's all different sides to this coin..  Just my 2 cents

Gosh, what a horrible thing to have witnessed dev.  But you're right.  There are differnt sides to this coin.  You may want to wonder if the woman who wanted this baby so much needs to be tied financially to a man so out of control that he could be verbally and physically abusive to his pregnant girlfriend.  If he's this abusive now, what will happen in the future when he's forced by the law to pay her?

Perhaps she needed to think more deeply about getting pregnant by this person who was so opposed to the idea of having a child that he reacted violently.  Did they even talk about it?  What they would do if an accident happened when they started to have sex?

Yes, it takes two to people to make a baby, but it requires them to be thinking about it first.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on October 23, 2007, 01:08:26 am



       Doctors in fertility clinics everyday dispose of viable zygots, because they have have used the ones they needed, and dispose of the rest..should we then carry this to the next step and force him to implant them or be tried for murder...This is an issue to be decided by the individual..in spite of the strong rhetoric that has been expressed here
that the government interferes in our every day life to our bodies...They shouldnt even tho they do..and they
certainly shouldnt in this case....Now I have extreme issues with partial birth abortions...I think it should only be
done in case of the mothers life or the childs..if you cant figure out what to do before that..you are stuck..as far as
im concerned...have the child and then place it for adoption if you are unwilling or unable to care for the child...its the
best for the child...
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 23, 2007, 01:13:21 am
Doctors in fertility clinics everyday dispose of viable zygots, because they have have used the ones they needed, and dispose of the rest..should we then carry this to the next step and force him to implant them or be tried for murder...This is an issue to be decided by the individual..in spite of the strong rhetoric that has been expressed here
that the government interferes in our every day life to our bodies...They shouldnt even tho they do..and they
certainly shouldnt in this case....Now I have extreme issues with partial birth abortions...I think it should only be
done in case of the mothers life or the childs.
.if you cant figure out what to do before that..you are stuck..as far as
im concerned...have the child and then place it for adoption if you are unwilling or unable to care for the child...its the
best for the child...

One of the things I learned when reading who exactly is it that gets partial birth abortions is that a percentage of the women who got them - aside from the birth defects and health issues - were simply too poor.  When asked why they waited so long, their answer was "I didn't have the money until now."   :-\
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 24, 2007, 11:17:05 am
This society desperately needs its own Beccaria. I wish I could advocate my position as elegantly and intelligently as he; instead, I feel like I'm just talking in circles. I know ultimately we will have to agree to disagree, and hopefully can do so in as respectful a manner as possible.

Let me leave you with this one thought: While anguishing over the cruelties of others, be mindful of the potential cruelty that resides within yourself, and do not let it steer your life into a hell of your own creation. Hate begets hate, and love mirrors love. And it is never inappropriate to respond with love.




Getting back to to the original topic for a moment or so....

Given the sentiment of the quote above, which is arguably a very Christian, conservative teaching, and which I sense those who oppose the death penalty embrace, I am curious how this view was exemplified relative to the killers of Matthew Shepard? I recall only cries for vengeance and the death penalty. 

Or, how should the killer of Jack Twist (hypotheically since I'm one who believes that scene was an illusion) have been treated if caught?

How would 'love mirrors love' resolved the issues in these cases?

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: moremojo on October 24, 2007, 11:27:13 am
For the record, I am not a Christian, nor am I conservative. I do find much to admire in the teachings and example of Jesus, who demonstrated that is better to be killed than it is to kill. Read Flannery O'Connor's (who was a Christian) story "A Good Man is Hard to Find" for a great literary treatment of this theme.

Though I believe it is better to be killed than it is to kill, I recognize how very difficult it is to follow through with this line of thinking. How many of us have the courage and strength to follow Jesus's example? I am not at all sure that I could do it, though that doesn't negate the great spiritual attainment of those who have.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 24, 2007, 11:45:04 am
Given the sentiment of the quote above, which is arguably a very Christian, conservative teaching, and which I sense those who oppose the death penalty embrace,

I'm not sure I'm following you, but if you're saying that all death-penalty opponents believe that people who deserve heinous crimes deserve love, I disagree.

I'm a death-penalty opponent, and to say I would love someone who tortures a child to death, for example, would not be true except in the most abstract imaginable sense -- the idea that all living things deserve love -- and probably not even then. Hate is too weak a word for how I feel toward those individuals. If there is a god or gods, and if he/she/they want to love people like that, then fine, more power to him/her/them. But as a human, I'm bound by human emotions (emotions presumably instilled in me by the Creator, assuming there is one), which do not incline me to love people who commit evil.

My opposition to the death penalty is not based on sympathy for the perpetrators of heinous crimes, it's based on a belief that it's immoral for the state to do it, that it's ineffective in reducing violent crime and in fact exacerbates it, and that inevitably it will result in some innocent people being killed.

Quote
I am curious how this view was exemplified relative to the killers of Matthew Shepard? I recall only cries for vengeance and the death penalty. 

Well, were those cries coming from people who are normally death-penalty opponents, making an exception in this one case? Or did they come from people who never have a problem with the death penalty, whose views you heard because they happened to provide news-bitey quotes?

Remember that people who say things like, "Those killers deserve to be tried in a court of law and, if found guilty by a jury of their peers, to be sentenced to life in prison without parole" are less likely to get into a newspaper or newscast than someone who says "I want to see them fry" or whatever.





Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Shakesthecoffecan on October 24, 2007, 12:06:43 pm
This has all been very enlightening to me.  It has helped crytsalize how I feel on the subject.  Thank you.

Having read thru this thread that I had been avoiding I think I can most closely agree with what Scott said. It has helped be crystalize my thoughts some more, but I find these issues ones that I cannot resolve between my heart and my head.

Going back to the original issue of Capitol Punishment. I only ask for mercy for my own killers if that is in fact how I die. I ask it for no one else but me and expect no great change in the course of history from it. It only gives me some satisfaction that somehow I am better than the person would would want to kill me. Should someone I love be killed, I do not know. I hope I never have to cross that bridge and at this point make the decision to not worry about it.

As to Abortion. We come to one of the worst inigmas on conundrums in all of humanity. It begins with the basic biological injustic that women are the ones who have to carry the baby and give birth. There is no getting around that. I once held the opinion that with that being the case perhaps the queston of Abortion should be left entirely to women to decide, but I remembered in many cases there is a father who cares about the baby, and he cannot be left out, I do believe that.

I do believe that it is far easier to prevent a pregancy than to terminate one, and I also know contraception is not fullproof. I cannot reconcile any of it. So I will take the cowards way out and embrace my non breeder status and leave it up to someone else. Sorry if I wasted your time.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 24, 2007, 12:24:13 pm
the basic biological injustic that women are the ones who have to carry the baby and give birth.

And remember, this could easily be restated as "women are the ones who get to carry the baby and give birth."

Quote
I will take the cowards way out and embrace my non breeder status and leave it up to someone else. Sorry if I wasted your time.

Not at all! Anyone is entitled to an opinion. But those who don't expect to be directly involved either way are most entitled to opt out of this thorny -- and perhaps ultimately unresolvable -- debate.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Shakesthecoffecan on October 24, 2007, 12:28:33 pm
And remember, this could easily be restated as "women are the ones who get to carry the baby and give birth."


Good point.


[/quote]
Not at all! Anyone is entitled to an opinion. But those who don't expect to be directly involved either way are most entitled to opt out of this thorny -- and perhaps ultimately unresolvable -- debate.


[/quote]

Thank you.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Mikaela on October 24, 2007, 01:44:57 pm
Given the sentiment of the quote above, which is arguably a very Christian, conservative teaching, and which I sense those who oppose the death penalty embrace, I am curious how this view was exemplified relative to the killers of Matthew Shepard? I recall only cries for vengeance and the death penalty. 

Or, how should the killer of Jack Twist (hypotheically since I'm one who believes that scene was an illusion) have been treated if caught?

How would 'love mirrors love' resolved the issues in these cases?


I firmly oppose the death penalty based on a Humanist and strictly atheistic outlook, and I would not call myself a Conservative - certainly not in the US sense of the word.

Being a foreigner I did not follow the news at the time of Matthew Shephard's death, but I do trust that American Humanists did not clamour for his killers' death. If they did, that truly disappoints me. Those guys, and the hypotetical killers of Jack Twist, do not deserve the death penalty. Noone does, - they are humans and their lives should be respected as such however despicable and horrific their acts. But I have no quarrel with countries who would deem that the very worst crimes deserve a full life sentence, without chance of parole, if under reasonably humane conditions.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Shakesthecoffecan on October 24, 2007, 01:57:47 pm
I firmly oppose the death penalty based on a Humanist and strictly atheistic outlook, and I would not call myself a Conservative - certainly not in the US sense of the word.

Being a foreigner I did not follow the news at the time of Matthew Shephard's death, but I do trust that American Humanists did not clamour for his killers' death. If they did, that truly disappoints me. Those guys, and the hypotetical killers of Jack Twist, do not deserve the death penalty. Noone does, - they are humans and their lives should be respected as such however despicable and horrific their acts. But I have no quarrel with countries who would deem that the very worst crimes deserve a full life sentence, without chance of parole, if under reasonably humane conditions.



Along these lines, I have the text of Dennis Shepard's speach at the sentancing of his sons killers. I think it has been posted on bettermost before, but wtf, here it goes, it is a powerful thing.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your honor, members of the Jury, Mr. Rerucha:

I would like to begin my statement by addressing the jury. Ladies and gentlemen, a terrible crime was committed in Laramie thirteen months ago. Because of that crime, the reputation of the city of Laramie, the University of Wyoming, and the State of Wyoming became synonymous with gay bashing, hate crimes, and brutality. While some of this reputation may be deserved, it was blown out of proportion by our friends in the media. Yesterday you, the jury, showed the world that Wyoming and the city of Laramie will not tolerate hate crimes. Yes, this was a hate crime, pure and simple, with the added ingredient of robbery. My son Matthew paid a terrible price to open the eyes of all of us who live in Wyoming, the United States, and the world to the unjust and unnecessary fears, discrimination, and intolerance that members of the gay community face every day. Yesterday’s decision by you showed true courage and made a statement. That statement is that Wyoming is the Equality State; that Wyoming will not tolerate discrimination based on sexual orientation; that violence is not the solution. Ladies and gentlemen, you have the respect and admiration of Matthew’s family and friends and of countless strangers around the world. Be proud of what you have accomplished. You may have prevented another family from losing a son or daughter.

Your honor, I would also like to thank you for the dignity and grace with which this trial was conducted. Repeated attempts to distract the court from the true purpose of this trial failed because of your attentiveness, knowledge, and willingness to take a stand and make new law in the area of sexual orientation and the “Gay Panic” defense. By doing so you have emphasized that Matthew was a human being with all the rights and responsibilities and protections of any citizen of Wyoming.

Mr. Rerucha took the oath of office as prosecuting attorney to protect the rights of the citizens of Albany County as mandated by the laws of the state of Wyoming, regardless of his personal feelings and beliefs. At no time did Mr. Rerucha make any decision on the outcome of this case without the permission of Judy and me. It was our decision to take this case to trial, just as it was our decision to accept the plea bargain today and the earlier plea bargain of Mr. Henderson. A trial was necessary to show that this was a hate crime and not just a robbery gone bad. If we had sought a plea bargain earlier, the facts of this case would not have been known and the question would always be present that we had something to hide. In addition, this trial was necessary to help provide some closure to the citizens of Laramie, Albany County, and the state. I find it intolerable that the priests of the Catholic Church and the Newman Center would attempt to influence the jury, the prosecution, and the outcome of this trial by their castigation and persecution of Mr. Rerucha and his family in his private life, by their newspaper advertisements, and by their presence in the courtroom. I find it difficult to believe that they speak for all Catholics. If the leaders of churches want to comment as private citizens, that is one thing. If they say that they represent the beliefs of their church, that is another. This country was founded on separation of church and state. The Catholic Church has stepped over the line and has become a political group with its own agenda. If that be the case, treat them as a political group and eliminate their privileges as a religious organization.

My son Matthew did not look like a winner. After all, he was small for his age—weighing, at the most, 110 pounds, and standing only 5’2” tall. He was rather uncoordinated and wore braces from the age of 13 until the day he died. However, in his all too brief life, he proved that he was a winner. My son—a gentle, caring soul—proved that he was as tough as, if not tougher than, anyone I have ever heard of or known. On October 6, 1998, my son tried to show the world that he could win again. On October 12, 1998, my first-born son—and my hero—lost. On October 12, my first-born son—and my hero— died 50 days before his 22nd birthday. He died quietly, surrounded by family and friends, with his mother and brother holding his hand. All that I have left
now are the memories.

It’s hard to put into words how much Matt meant to family and friends and how much they meant to him. Everyone wanted him to succeed because he tried so hard. The spark that he provided to people had to be experienced. He simply made everyone feel better about themselves. Family and friends were his focus. He knew that he always had their support for anything that he wanted to try.

Matt’s gift was people. He loved being with people, helping people, and making others feel good. The hope of a better world free of harassment and discrimination because a person was different kept him motivated. All his life he felt the stabs of discrimination. Because of that he was sensitive to other people’s feelings. He was naive to the extent that, regardless of the wrongs people did to him, he still had faith that they would change and become “nice.” Matt trusted people, perhaps too much. Violence was not a part of his life until his senior year in high school. He would walk into a fight and try to break it up. He was the perfect negotiator. He could get two people talking to each other again as no one else could.

Matt loved people and he trusted them. He could never understand how one person could hurt another, physically or verbally. They would hurt him, and he would give them another chance. This quality of seeing only good gave him friends around the world. He didn’t see size, race, intelligence, sex, religion, or the hundred other things that people use to make choices about people. All he saw was the person. All he wanted was to make another person his friend. All he wanted was to make another person feel good. All he wanted was to be accepted as an equal.

What did Matt’s friends think of him? Fifteen of his friends from high school in Switzerland, as well as his high school adviser, joined hundreds of others at his memorial services. They left college, fought a blizzard, and came together one more time to say good-bye to Matt. Men and women coming from different countries, cultures, and religions thought enough of my son to drop everything and come to Wyoming—most of them for the first time. That’s why this Wyoming country boy wanted to major in foreign relations and languages. He wanted to continue making friends and at the same time help others. He wanted to make a difference. Did he? You tell me.

I loved my son and, as can be seen throughout this statement, was proud of him. He was not my gay son. He was my son who happened to be gay. He was a good-looking, intelligent, caring person. There were the usual arguments, and at times he was a real pain in the butt. I felt the regrets of a father when he realizes that his son is not a star athlete. But it was replaced with a greater pride when I saw him on the stage. The hours that he spent learning his parts, working behind the scenes, and helping others made me realize that he was actually an excellent athlete—in a more dynamic way—because of the different types of physical and mental conditioning required by actors. To this day I have never figured out how he was able to spend all those hours at the theater, during the school year, and still have good grades.

Because my job involved lots of travel, I never had the same give-and-take with Matt that Judy had. Our relationship at times was strained. But, whenever he had problems we talked. For example, he was unsure about revealing to me that he was gay. He was afraid that I would reject him immediately, so it took him a while to tell me. By that time, his mother and brother had already been told. One day he said that he had something to say. I could see that he was nervous, so I asked him if everything was all right. Matt took a deep breath and told me that he was gay. Then he waited for my reaction. I still remember his surprise when I said, “Yeah? OK, but what’s the point of this conversation?” Then everything was OK. We went back to a father and son who loved each other and respected the beliefs of the other. We were father and son, but we were also friends.

How do I talk about the loss that I feel every time I think about Matt? How can I describe the empty pit in my heart and mind when I think about all the problems that were put in Matt’s way that he overcame? No one can understand the sense of pride and accomplishment that I felt every time he reached the mountain top of another obstacle. No one, including myself, will ever know the frustration and agony that others put him through because he was different. How many people could be given the problems that Matt was presented with and still succeed as he did? How many would continue to smile—at least on the outside—while crying on the inside to keep other people from feeling bad?

I now feel very fortunate that I was able to spend some private time with Matt last summer during my vacation from Saudi Arabia. We sat and talked. I told Matt that he was my hero and that he was the toughest man that I had ever known. When I said that, I bowed down to him out of respect for his ability to continue to smile and keep a positive attitude during all the trials and tribulations that he had gone through. He just laughed. I also told him how proud I was because of what he had accomplished and what he was trying to accomplish. The last thing I said to Matt was that I loved him, and he said he loved me. That was the last private onversation that I ever had with him.

Impact on my life? My life will never be the same. I miss Matt terribly. I think about him all the time—at odd moments when some little thing reminds me of him; when I walk by the refrigerator and see the pictures of him and his brother that we’ve always kept on the door; at special times of the year, like the first day of classes at UW or opening day of sage chicken hunting. I keep wondering almost the same thing that I did when I first saw him in the hospital. What would we have become? How would he have changed his piece of the world to make it better?

Impact on my life? I feel a tremendous sense of guilt. Why wasn’t I there when he needed me most? Why didn’t I spend more time with him? Why didn’t I try to find another type of profession so that I could have been available to spend more time with him as he grew up? What could I have done to be a better father and friend? How do I get an answer to those questions now? The only one who can answer them is Matt. These questions will be with me for the rest of my life. What makes it worse for me is knowing that his mother and brother will have similar unanswered questions.

Impact on my life? In addition to losing my son, I lost my father on November 4, 1998. The stress of the entire affair was too much for him. Dad watched Matt grow up. He taught him how to hunt, fish, camp, ride horses, and love the state of Wyoming. Matt, Logan, dad, and I would spend two to three weeks camping in the mountains at different times of the year—to hunt, to fish, and to goof off. Matt learned to cook over an open fire, tell fishing stories about the one that got away, and to drive a truck from my father.

Three weeks before Matt went to the Fireside Bar for the last time, my parents saw Matt in Laramie. In addition, my father tried calling Matt the night that he was beaten but received no answer. He never got over the guilt of not trying earlier. The additional strain of the hospital vigil, being in the hospital room with Matt when he died, the funeral services with all the media attention and the protesters, [and] helping Judy and me clean out Matt’s apartment in Laramie a few days later was too much. Three weeks after Matt’s death, dad died. Dad told me after the funeral that he never expected to outlive Matt. The stress and the grief were just too much for him.

Impact on my life? How can my life ever be the same again?

When Matt was little, I used to take showers with him, just to teach him not to be scared of the water. Later, Matt helped me do the same thing with Logan. Anyway, Matt and I would be in the shower spitting mouthfuls of water at each other or at his mother, if he could convince her to come into the bathroom. Then he would laugh and laugh. We would also sing in the showers. I taught him the songs “Row, Row, Row Your Boat”; both “Brother John” and its French version, “Frère Jacques”; and “Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star.” Matt would sing loud and clear. Now, that voice is silent, the boat has sunk, Jacques is no longer frère, and the little star no longer twinkles.

Matt officially died at 12:53 a.m. on Monday, October 12, 1998, in a hospital in Fort Collins, Colorado. He actually died on the outskirts of Laramie tied to a fence that Wednesday before, when you beat him. You, Mr. McKinney, with your friend Mr. Henderson, killed my son.

By the end of the beating, his body was just trying to survive. You left him out there by himself, but he wasn’t alone. There were his lifelong friends with him—friends that he had grown up with. You’re probably wondering who these friends were. First, he had the beautiful night sky with the same stars and moon that we used to look at through a telescope. Then, he had the daylight and the sun to shine on him one more time—one more cool, wonderful autumn day in Wyoming. His last day alive in Wyoming. His last day alive in the state that he always proudly called home. And through it all he was breathing in for the last time the smell of Wyoming sagebrush and the scent of pine trees from the snowy range. He heard the wind—the ever-present Wyoming wind—for the last time. He had one more friend with him. One he grew to know through his time in Sunday school and as an acolyte at St. Mark’s in Casper as well as through his visits to St. Matthew’s in Laramie. He had God.

I feel better knowing he wasn’t alone.

Matt became a symbol—some say a martyr, putting a boy-next-door face on hate crimes. That’s fine with me. Matt would be thrilled if his death would help others. On the other hand, your agreement to life without parole has taken yourself out of the spotlight and out of the public eye. It means no drawn-out appeals process, [no] chance of walking away free due to a technicality, and no chance of lighter sentence due to a “merciful” jury. Best of all, you won’t be a symbol. No years of publicity, no chance of communication, no nothing—just a miserable future and a more miserable end. It works for me.

My son was taught to look at all sides of an issue before making a decision or taking a stand. He learned this early when he helped campaign for various political candidates while in grade school and junior high. When he did take a stand, it was based on his best judgment. Such a stand cost him his life when he quietly let it be known that he was gay. He didn’t advertise it, but he didn’t back away from the issue either. For that I’ll always be proud of him. He showed me that he was a lot more courageous than most people, including myself. Matt knew that there were dangers to being gay, but he accepted that and wanted to just get on with his life and his ambition of helping others.

Matt’s beating, hospitalization, and funeral focused worldwide attention on hate. Good is coming out of evil. People have said “Enough is enough.” You screwed up, Mr. McKinney. You made the world realize that a person’s lifestyle is not a reason for discrimination, intolerance, persecution, and violence. This is not the 1920s, 30s, and 40s of Nazi Germany. My son died because of your ignorance and intolerance. I can’t bring him back. But I can do my best to see that this never, ever happens to another person or another family again. As I mentioned earlier, my son has become a symbol—a symbol against hate and people like you; a symbol for encouraging respect for individuality; for appreciating that someone is different; for tolerance. I miss my son, but I’m proud to be able to say that he is my son.

Mr. McKinney, one final comment before I sit, and this is the reason that I stand before you now. At no time since Matt was found at the fence and taken to the hospital have Judy and I made any statements about our beliefs concerning the death penalty. We felt that that would be an undue influence on any prospective juror. Judy has been quoted by some right-wing groups as being against the death penalty. It has been stated that Matt was against the death penalty. Both of these statements are wrong. We have held family discussions and talked about the death penalty. Matt believed that there were incidents and crimes that justified the death penalty. For example, he and I discussed the horrible death of James Byrd, Jr. in Jasper, Texas. It was his
opinion that the death penalty should be sought and that no expense should be spared to bring those responsible for this murder to justice. Little did we know that the same response would come about involving Matt. I, too, believe in the death penalty. I would like nothing better than to see you die, Mr. McKinney. However, this is the time to begin the healing process. To show mercy to someone who refused to show any mercy. To use this as the first step in my own closure about losing Matt. Mr. McKinney, I am not doing this because of your family. I am definitely not doing this because of the crass and unwarranted pressures put on by the religious community. If anything, that hardens my resolve to see you die. Mr. McKinney, I’m going to grant you life, as hard as that is for me to do, because of Matthew. Every time you celebrate Christmas, a birthday, or the Fourth of July, remember that Matt isn’t. Every time that you wake up in that prison cell, remember that you had the opportunity and the ability to stop your actions that night. Every time that you see your cell mate, remember that you had a choice, and now you are living that choice. You robbed me of something very precious, and I will never forgive you for that. Mr. McKinney, I give you life in the memory of one who no longer lives. May you have a long life, and may you thank Matthew every day for it.

Your honor, members of the jury, Mr. Rerucha, thank you.


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Penthesilea on October 24, 2007, 03:29:45 pm
Along these lines, I have the text of Dennis Shepard's speach at the sentancing of his sons killers. I think it has been posted on bettermost before, but wtf, here it goes, it is a powerful thing.


Powerful indeed. I've read it before, skipped it another time when it was quoted, but reread it now. I was in tears the first time I read it, and I am in tears now. I have three children and I don't even want to try to imagine....
 :'(
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 24, 2007, 09:38:44 pm
Very very powerful speech.  I especially liked his stab at the meddling of some Catholic Church officials.

Poor Matthew.  :'(  He was a flower child, naive and he walked into the lion's den with only his good will to protect him.  :'(

I admire Matthew's father's faith in the people of Wyoming and his confidence that they 'will not tolerate discrimination' etc.  Sadly, his speech fell on deaf ears.  While the good people of Wyoming did the right thing by Matthew in a court of criminal law, they fell down in actually recognizing gay people as people deserving of marriage and all the rights thereof in a civil situation.  They pretty much ruled in one court that no one can go around discriminantly killing people, but ruled in another court that some people are not quite as good as the rest of the 'regular' people.  >:(

I fear we are still far far far away from Dennis Shepherd's utopian vision of a society free of harrassment and discrimination.

As a Hispanic and especially a woman, I can tell him the fight can last millennia.
 
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Mikaela on October 25, 2007, 11:48:27 am
Along these lines, I have the text of Dennis Shepard's speach at the sentancing of his sons killers. I think it has been posted on bettermost before, but wtf, here it goes, it is a powerful thing.


I tried to formulate a response to this several times yesterday but everything seemed too trite. So I will just say; thank you for posting this.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 25, 2007, 12:07:22 pm
I tried to formulate a response to this several times yesterday but everything seemed too trite. So I will just say; thank you for posting this.

Mikaela, I know exactly what you mean. Not to piggyback on your post, but it was so well put. I did the same.


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: loneleeb3 on October 25, 2007, 12:07:58 pm
I just read Mr Shepards speech.
Words can't express my feelings.
All I can say is my heart hurts.
I can't imagine what he goes through ona daily basis and the pain he and his family have had to endure.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Shakesthecoffecan on October 25, 2007, 12:13:10 pm
It is a very terrible thing they live with daily. I know Judy Shepard travels and lectures on behalf of hate crimes legislation. I think Dennis Shepard is somewhat involved with it as well.

What he said was a fine example I think of someone rising to meet an incomprehencible challenge.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: David In Indy on October 31, 2007, 04:42:17 pm
From the AOL website:



Legal Challenges Halt Lethal Injections


Infuriating the victim's family, the Supreme Court halts a Mississippi execution by injection at the last minute. The move signals that most or all lethal injections will be suspended until the nation's highest court rules on their constitutionality. Justices are considering whether injections can be considered cruel and unusual punishment.

WASHINGTON (Oct. 31) - The Supreme Court's decision to halt an execution in Mississippi is the latest indication that most, if not all, executions by lethal injection will be halted until justices rule on a challenge to the procedure.

The last-minute reprieve Tuesday for Earl Wesley Berry was the third granted by the justices since they agreed late last month to decide a challenge to Kentucky's lethal injection procedures.

The decision brought an emotional response from about two dozen members of the victim's family, who called a news conference to express their outrage.

"Now you want to tell me that we got a fair shake today?" said Charles Bounds, whose 56-year-old wife, Mary, was kidnapped from a church and killed by Berry in 1987.

"Please don't ever let that man out of prison, 'cause you'll have me, then. ... I'll kill him," he said.

Justices Samuel Alito and Antonin Scalia would have allowed the execution to go forward.

Berry was convicted in 1988. His confession was used against him during the trial.

The Supreme Court has allowed only one execution to go forward since agreeing to hear the Kentucky case, which it is likely to hear before its July recess. Michael Richard was executed in Texas on Sept. 25, the same day the court said it would hear a lethal injection challenge from two death row inmates in Kentucky.

State and lower federal courts have halted all other scheduled executions since then, putting the nation on a path toward the lowest annual number of executions in a decade.

Berry asked for a delay at least until the court issues its decision in the Kentucky case. He claimed the mixture of deadly chemicals Mississippi uses would cause unnecessary pain, constituting cruel and unusual punishment.

Kentucky's method of lethal injection executions is similar to procedures in three dozen states. The court will consider whether the mix of three drugs used to sedate and kill prisoners has the potential to cause pain severe enough to violate the constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment.




Associated Press writer Holbrook Mohr in Parchman, Miss., contributed to this report.








Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: moremojo on October 31, 2007, 04:51:31 pm
This is interesting news, but I think it likely that the Court will rule for injections to go forward. The Court is extremely conservative (maybe even reactionary) right now (a "gift" from Bush that will keep on giving for decades to come), and the death penalty in and of itself has not been deemed "cruel and unusual punishment" by the highest-ranking magistrates for quite some time.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on October 31, 2007, 04:55:06 pm
On a lighter note, here's an excerpt from a story in The Onion that combines both our topics:

Lethal Injection Ban Leads To Rise In Back-Alley Lethal Injections

October 24, 2007 | Issue 43•43

TALLAHASSEE, FL—To all outward appearances, "Kevin" is a typical Southern state governor. He enjoys vetoing bills, attending ribbon-cutting ceremonies, and hanging out with friends. But the recent suspension of lethal injections in 10 states has put Kevin's political life in serious jeopardy. Unable to wait for the U.S. Supreme Court to determine whether the practice constitutes cruel and unusual punishment, Kevin, like many young governors who find themselves saddled with an unwanted death row inmate, has been forced to take desperate action and obtain an illegal back-alley lethal injection.

As safe and professional execution facilities like this one in Tallahassee shut their doors, governors are forced to obtain capital punishment on the streets.

"It was awful," said Kevin, who still suffers from nightmares after witnessing the prisoner die in horrible agony without any anesthesia. "We did it on an old card table. All the equipment was really rusty and dirty. I just closed my eyes and prayed for it to be over."

"I had my whole political career ahead of me," Kevin continued through tears. "If I didn't do it, the voters would have left me. I couldn't see any other way."

Lethal injection has long been a polarizing issue and, according to proponents of the banned procedure, Kevin's story is becoming all too common. Dr. Daniel Blecker, a professor at the University of California, Berkeley, School of Law, and expert on capital punishment, said that the illegal back-alley execution trend will only intensify if the ban is upheld.

Here's the whole article:

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/lethal_injection_ban_leads_to_rise (http://www.theonion.com/content/news/lethal_injection_ban_leads_to_rise)


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on October 31, 2007, 07:15:48 pm
Quote
Berry asked for a delay at least until the court issues its decision in the Kentucky case. He claimed the mixture of deadly chemicals Mississippi uses would cause unnecessary pain, constituting cruel and unusual punishment.

I wonder if Mr. Berry knows the meaning of "ironic".  >:(

Did he worry about the 'unnecessary pain' suffered by his victim?

He's only worried about it when it comes to himself.   >:( >:(

They'll go forward.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: David In Indy on October 31, 2007, 11:53:45 pm
I wonder if Mr. Berry knows the meaning of "ironic".  >:(

Did he worry about the 'unnecessary pain' suffered by his victim?

He's only worried about it when it comes to himself.   >:( >:(

They'll go forward.



While I remain adamantly against the death penalty, I must admit I agree with you Delalluvia. That very same thought always crosses my mind when I hear criminals argue this point. The death penalty brings forth a lot of complicated feelings and emotions, and I suppose this is why it's such a hot topic right now in this country. I live in a very pro death penalty state. Almost everyone here is in favor of the death penalty and often times I think I may be the only one here that opposes it. Probably not, but it sometimes feels like that. But I do feel some anger inside when I hear the criminals arguing about these things, and a part of me wonders why they didn't think about this before they did their crime(s).

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Brown Eyes on November 08, 2007, 10:45:22 am
I'm not in favor of the death penalty because I don't think the state should have the right to take the life of its citizens.  The state can, and often does, make mistakes.  And the state can misuse its power for political reasons.

I also don't think that the justice and penal systems should be about revenge, or judgement in the Biblical sense.  I don't think human beings know enough to judge even themselves, much less others in this way.  If someone has proven that he/she can't be trusted with his/her freedom he/she should be removed from the general population.  I want to be protected from violent criminals.  I don't want them hurt or abused.  (But I can understand a victim or someone close to a victim feeling differently.)  If there is a God, then let God be the judge.

Gary

Thanks Gary.   I'm with Susie... this seems like a very thoughtful, well-reasoned post and point of view.  I agree with you that justice should not be about a system of revenge.





Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 08, 2007, 09:31:57 pm
Punishment is only a type of 'revenge' if you think it is.

Otherwise it's whatever you might think it is - self defense, justice, etc.

I consider it justice and self-defense.

As for not judging...well, our whole justice system is about judging others.  We actually have people called "Judges".  We judge all the time, in every day life in almost every situation we're in.  We make 'judgement' calls.  It's human nature, it's how one makes a decision.  I'm not sure how one can expect people not to judge.

Instead of the biblical "judge not" stuff, which is obviously unworkable since we do it all the time, I liked Rand's philosophy of "judge - and be prepared to be judged."
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on November 09, 2007, 02:39:57 pm

      Ok dont do it in your name...just mine.....I dont believe they should be kept alive, simply because
we find the carrying out of justice, distasteful..  There are many things we do in the name of justice
that are hard to swallow.  But with the amount of violence and murder.  Rapes and mutilations going
on these days..We have to do something more than put them in a permanent state of imprisonment.
These people have done these terrible crimes, then proceed to enter the prison system, and repeat
the same things inside the prisons killing other prisoners, and raping them, and even killing the
prison guards and employees..What to do....?
      Send them to their room....
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 09, 2007, 03:04:18 pm
dont believe they should be kept alive, simply because we find the carrying out of justice, distasteful..

I don't find it distasteful, I find it just plain wrong.

Depriving a human being of his/her life is not within the rights of another human being. We can say, "You're not fit to live in civilized society," because we other humans have created that society and we can make the rules. So we can send them into exile or, more practically these days, lock them up. But we can't say, "You're not fit to stay alive," because we didn't give the person life in the first place.

I'm agnostic. But if there is/are God(s), I'm pretty sure he/she/they would say that's not our job.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on November 09, 2007, 04:23:12 pm




             I still say what to do??
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 09, 2007, 06:40:00 pm
Get on in there and untangle them Chilean sheep outa ours, I guess.

Which sounds glib, but isn't. What I mean is, we do the best we can without breaking what is, IMO, a moral law. I do see it as distasteful to have to provide food and shelter for someone who's done a horrible thing. But what are you gonna do? Unless there's a fantasy island available -- or a habitable planet -- where we can just dump all the bad guys and let them fend for themselves, that's what we're stuck with.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on November 09, 2007, 07:56:19 pm



    I have said all along this should be only foir the most heinous of oeople..
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: David In Indy on November 09, 2007, 08:16:56 pm
Let's remember that we are all friends here, even though we may have differing opinions about certain things. Everyone's thoughts and input on this subject is appreciated! :)
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 09, 2007, 09:27:54 pm
Gary

Quote
You can judge whether or not someone is guilty of a violent crime, and therefore can't be trusted with his/her freedom, without judging that person's worth in the larger scheme of things.

I think that’s a matter of opinion.  What is someone’s worth in the larger scheme of things?

Quote
You can look at a situation and try to decide what happened without comment on the basic humanity of the people involved.

That depends on the situation though, doesn’t it?

Quote
And the way we set up our prisons in a way that allows the strong to rape and abuse the weak is an example of how we as a society have no respect for the humanity of our prisoners.

But what does that say about our society where people are running around free, yet the strong continue to rape and abuse the weak? 


crayons

Quote
I don't find it distasteful, I find it just plain wrong.

Depriving a human being of his/her life is not within the rights of another human being. We can say, "You're not fit to live in civilized society," because we other humans have created that society and we can make the rules. So we can send them into exile or, more practically these days, lock them up. But we can't say, "You're not fit to stay alive," because we didn't give the person life in the first place.

Well, If someone is threatening my life and the life of my friends or family, I most certainly think I can take them out of this life because that’s what they were planning on doing to me – or have done or plan to do to others.  They have shown they have no respect for others – so why send them to a prison where – as Gary pointed out – they will continue to try to do inside a prison as they have done outside?

Quote
I'm agnostic. But if there is/are God(s), I'm pretty sure he/she/they would say that's not our job...

I’m atheist/agnostic friendly, but in the end, I’m polytheistic/animist and believe the gods know life and death is quite natural, as is self-defense and protection in whatever form and I’m pretty sure they do not smile on anyone who commits heinous crimes against innocent people.

Quote
I do see it as distasteful to have to provide food and shelter for someone who's done a horrible thing. But what are you gonna do? Unless there's a fantasy island available -- or a habitable planet -- where we can just dump all the bad guys and let them fend for themselves, that's what we're stuck with.

Well, see, those who support the death penalty don’t agree that you’re stuck with just a prison sentence.  We support other options – the death penalty for heinous crimes.


Gary

Quote
It worries me that on a message board at a site dedicated to the film BBM there are people who trust the state to decide who is and who isn't worthy of life.

Why does BBM bear into this?

We trust the government with war and making sure our water and food isn’t contaminated, so in many ways, we already trust them with life and death.

Quote
Throughout history ordinary citizens have had much more to fear from their governments than any individual psycho.

But how about your neighbor?  Or abusive husband/father?  Don't forget, the person most likely to kill you is the person you love.

Quote
And it was only just a few years ago that it was against the law to engage in gay sex in a number of states in the U.S.  As a gay man I certainly want the likes of Jeffrey Dahmer removed from the streets, but I don't want the state to have the right to kill Jeffrey Dahmer because there's an awful lot of assholes out there that confuse me with Jeffrey Dahmer.
 

Gay = cannibalism?

Quote
Someone mentioned Ayan Rand's quote, "Judge and be prepared to be judged."  That sounds a lot like don't do anything you wouldn't want to see printed in the papers.  HA!  I do lots of stuff I wouldn't want to see printed in the papers, and if my neighbor were to find out about some of that stuff I wouldn't trust him to judge me with an eye toward fair play any more than I could throw the S.O.B.

Perhaps you want to be re-thinking how you live your life then ;)  Seriously, women have had this problem for millennia.  It's been documented in rape trials that jurors had a hard time convicting rapists because the woman just happened to be wearing a short skirt or had been divorced or was in a bar or - believe it or not - wearing animal print underwear.  Some members of the jury found it hard to believe she was raped.  Her underwear told them she was asking for it.

Quote
And God help me if he had the state with the power to kill me on his side.

That’s a pretty big jump from your neighbor knowing your dirty laundry to suddenly turning into the Gestapo living next to you, isn’t it?  And remember, we're talking heinous crimes.  Does your current life-style lead you to such things?

Quote
"Judge and be prepared to be judged" only works if you're in the majority.  If you're part of a disdained minority you can judge all you want, but you had better be prepared to get stepped on like a bug by a group of people who think they are absolutely right in getting rid of you.

So, how does a minority become a majority to avoid this problem?  They don’t.  They have to have laws that protect them from the majority. 
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 09, 2007, 10:37:35 pm
Well, If someone is threatening my life and the life of my friends or family, I most certainly think I can take them out of this life because that’s what they were planning on doing to me – or have done or plan to do to others.

I agree. I said in earlier posts that I would make an exception to the "no killing" rule for those defending themselves and their families. And I would make the exception for defending some larger group of innocents, as in World War II.

But in both those cases, the killing is done to prevent further killing, not after the fact to punish someone for having killed.

Quote
I’m atheist/agnostic friendly, but in the end, I’m polytheistic/animist and believe the gods know life and death is quite natural, as is self-defense and protection in whatever form and I’m pretty sure they do not smile on anyone who commits heinous crimes against innocent people.

Perhaps not. But that doesn't mean they encourage humans to take the punishment into their own hands. If God(s) disapprove of a heinous criminal, you'd think he/she/they'd have the power to mete out justice. Alternatively, the fact that heinous criminals do exist and can get away with such crimes suggests that God(s) don't exist, don't care, or plan to deal with the criminals later in their own way.

Quote
Well, see, those who support the death penalty don’t agree that you’re stuck with just a prison sentence.  We support other options – the death penalty for heinous crimes.

Yes, I know. But I'm not one of them. In light of my assertion that killing is wrong, Janice asked, "I still say what to do?" and that was my answer.

Quote
But how about your neighbor?  Or abusive husband/father?  Don't forget, the person most likely to kill you is the person you love.

And that's an argument for wanting to see them fry??
 
Quote
  It's been documented in rape trials that jurors had a hard time convicting rapists because the woman just happened to be wearing a short skirt or had been divorced or was in a bar or - believe it or not - wearing animal print underwear.  Some members of the jury found it hard to believe she was raped.  Her underwear told them she was asking for it.

And that's an argument for trusting juries to decide on whether people live or die??

There was a time when committing gay sex was considered by the majority to be a heinous crime, worthy of the death penalty.  Many still hold this view.

Good point, Gary. Some countries even now hand out death penalties for homosexuality.

Quote
And yes, we do trust government to make war and protect our drinking water.  And look at what a wonderful job they're doing.

 :laugh:


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on November 10, 2007, 04:20:16 am



           I am sorry but if you find it hard to love someone who came to you armed with words and
insults.. How then will you be able to do as you are asking me to do.  And love these killers and
murders and rapists that have committed such haineous crimes against the weakest and best
among us...I am not saying these things in order to defend myself, or to wreak vengence.!! 
I am trying to protect the ones who are unable to protect themselves..
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: David In Indy on November 10, 2007, 04:25:21 am
Wow Gary! What a thorough and well thought out response. Thank you for reposting it here! And I totally agree with every word you said. Hopefully the person you directed it to will consider it and have a change of heart. At the very least you gave him or her something to think about. You planted a seed in their mind and maybe some day it will take root.

Thanks Gary!  :)
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 10, 2007, 11:27:47 am
Gary,

Quote
The word faggot means bundle of sticks.  Why are gay men called faggots?  Because it refers to the pile of wood gay men were placed on top of when they were burned at the stake.

Only in the US.  In the UK, a ‘faggot’ is a cigarette.

Quote
There was a time when committing gay sex was considered by the majority to be a heinous crime, worthy of the death penalty.  Many still hold this view.  And political winds can change quickly.  Nazi Germany arose from a free and democratic society.

So you’re going to live your life by what may happen?  We’re just as likely to turn into a Constitutional Monarchy, which also had the death penalty, but doesn’t seem to carry the same boogeyman status as Nazi Germany. 

Quote
And I never claimed I had any dirty laundry at all.  I meant that my neighbor may simply view what I do as dirty.  But what does he know?  Not a lot.  None of us do.  Like Socrates said, I know nothing but of my own ignorance.  I certainly don't know who is worthy of life, and who isn't.

True, but your neighbor could view it as dirty, or think well of you, or think nothing at all.  Again, no point in thinking worst case scenario or living your life on what people might think.

Quote
If someone was attacking me I would defend myself.  But we're not talking about that.  We're talking about the death penalty.

I consider the death penalty self-defense.  A society defending itself from known killers.

Quote
And the reason that so many rapes and assults take place in prison isn't simply because the people behind bars are violent.  The way the prisons are set up allow, and subtly encourage this to happen.  The way gangs are formed, and the way weaker men are prayed upon behind bars has been known for years.  The reason nothing is done to correct the situation is because the state doesn't care.  The state considers the abuse part of the punishment.  And the result is petty criminals are sent to these over populated pirsons and they become violent criminals.

Sorry, I don’t buy that.  Young men have a tendency to form gangs, they don’t have to be in prison, and commit violence.  My best friend’s brother-in-law works for the Texas Dept of Corrections and he has long stories of how inmates have to be separated, the short-timers from the lifers, the different attitudes each have.  Now, all prisons are different, but I don’t believe they’re “set up” as torture chambers by the State in some conspiracy.   

Quote
And yes, we do trust government to make war and protect our drinking water.  And look at what a wonderful job they're doing.

Do you see thousands dying of cholera or dysentary?  That’s what used to happen every summer when water quality wasn’t regulated.  WWII was a pretty good fight, done for good reasons.  So was Bosnia and the 1st Gulf War.  I do agree Doofus Dubya has really wrecked it recently.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 10, 2007, 11:51:02 am
crayons,

But in both those cases, the killing is done to prevent further killing, not after the fact to punish someone for having killed.

But do you think the perps of these heinous crimes are going to stop?

Quote
Perhaps not. But that doesn't mean they encourage humans to take the punishment into their own hands. If God(s) disapprove of a heinous criminal, you'd think he/she/they'd have the power to mete out justice. Alternatively, the fact that heinous criminals do exist and can get away with such crimes suggests that God(s) don't exist, don't care, or plan to deal with the criminals later in their own way.

Or the gods are simply expecting humans to do it themselves.  The gods won't do for humans what humans can do for themselves. 

See?

Religious arguments don't really help in this type of discussion.  Some people are Christian, some are not, some are agnostic and some are atheists to whom the idea of what a big invisible friend in the sky might think is absurd.  We all have different ideas about what the gods - if they exist - might or might not do.

A friend of mine is a debate coach and I mentioned this thread to her.  She is anti-death penalty herself and said that this topic is on her discussion list for her team's competition.  She did admit sheepishly that it's easier to argue for the death penalty instead of against it, because the only arguments one could bring against it were emotional arguments and not really suited for the logical structure of a debate.

Quote
And that's an argument for wanting to see them fry??
 
And that's an argument for trusting juries to decide on whether people live or die??

Do you see rapists going free by the dozens?  Some do, most don't.  And why?  Because people are being educated about women and rapists.  That women aren't always the Virgin or Good Little Housewife and if they're not, doesn't mean they deserve whatever violence is done them.  It's an educational process.  The same might be said for the Matthew Shepard case in a state not known for being gay friendly.

Quote
Good point, Gary. Some countries even now hand out death penalties for homosexuality.

And adultery, but I'm not about to compare them to the West and we are talking about the West, right?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 10, 2007, 12:43:41 pm
But do you think the perps of these heinous crimes are going to stop?

Yes, because they'll be in prison. I'm not saying that the alternative to killing them is setting them free.

Quote
Or the gods are simply expecting humans to do it themselves.  The gods won't do for humans what humans can do for themselves. 

See?

Yes, I "see," all right. I just don't agree.

Quote
Religious arguments don't really help in this type of discussion.  Some people are Christian, some are not, some are agnostic and some are atheists to whom the idea of what a big invisible friend in the sky might think is absurd.  We all have different ideas about what the gods - if they exist - might or might not do.

Right. My point was not to speculate about religious influence because, as I said, I'm agnostic. So we're off on the wrong track.

My point is that, IMO, killing people as punishment is wrong. It's not about being practical or impractical, fair or unfair, feeling sorry for the killers or loving the killers or hating the killers. It's not about whether I want to feed and house them or not.

I believe it's just wrong, in some larger, overarching sense of morality. So it's not really about gods. My point in invoking the concept of "god" was to suggest that it's about the moral laws to the universe. I know that even that concept, in itself, is often disputed. I happen to think that there are some moral absolutes, and one of them is that you don't kill people except in self-defense.

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the only arguments one could bring against it were emotional arguments and not really suited for the logical structure of a debate.

But that's not true. First of all, you can argue that it's wrong because inevitably innocent people wind up getting executed. And you can point out that death sentences are influenced by juror misperceptions, inadequate representation, gender, racism (from deathpenaltyinfo.org: Modern studies of the death penalty continue to find a correlation between sentencing and race. The studies consistently show that those who kill white victims are much more likely to receive the death penalty than those who kill black victims) and other inequalities.

And in practical terms, you can argue that capital punishment is not effective at deterring crime -- on the contrary, I believe it encourages crime. The United States, the only Western country that allows capital punishment, also has the highest crime rate among Western industrialized countries. And states where capital punishment is legal tend to have higher murder rates. Here's a chart ranking states by murder rates. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=169#MRord (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=169#MRord) The states with the highest murder rates are at the top. The states highlighted in yellow are those that DON'T allow capital punishment. You'll notice that the yellow states are concentrated at the low end of the list.

Now, the cause-and-effect could potentially go the other way -- perhaps the states with higher murder rates allow capital punishment because they feel they "need" it more. But clearly the existence of a death penalty does not stop murders from occurring.

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Do you see rapists going free by the dozens?  Some do, most don't.  And why?  Because people are being educated about women and rapists.  That women aren't always the Virgin or Good Little Housewife and if they're not, doesn't mean they deserve whatever violence is done them.

Fine, but that's a direct contradiction of what you said in the first place, that juries make mistakes in rape trials. So you could argue that, through education, they're improving. But your point originally was that they do make mistakes. I agree, and that's one problem with capital punishment.

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And adultery, but I'm not about to compare them to the West and we are talking about the West, right?

No, we're talking about capital punishment. I don't think we specified a specific global region. Gary's point was that in very recent memory homosexuality was considered a deviant crime here. I added that, in some countries, it is still a capital crime. The overall point is that humans are fallible in their perception of criminality. The criminalization of homosexuality relates to the capital punishment debate because it shows that humans are capable of killing people -- and feeling totally justified in doing so -- for "crimes" that others regard as perfectly acceptable behavior. I don't trust that sense of justice.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 10, 2007, 01:01:16 pm
Yes, because they'll be in prison. I'm not saying that the alternative to killing them is setting them free.

But if they do get out of prison - and they do have chances at parole?

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My point is that, IMO, killing people as punishment is wrong. It's not about being practical or impractical, fair or unfair, feeling sorry for the killers or loving the killers or hating the killers. It's not about whether I want to feed and house them or not.

I believe it's just wrong, in some larger, overarching sense of morality. So it's not really about gods. My point in invoking the concept of "god" was to suggest that it's about the moral laws to the universe. I know that even that concept, in itself, is often disputed. I happen to think that there are some moral absolutes, and one of them is that you don't kill people except in self-defense.

But what are morals?  As you and Gary have pointed out, morals have fluctuated throughout the centuries.  What is moral in one era isn't in another and vice-versa, so there aren't really any moral absolutes.  There is only moral relativism.  Something is moral or isn't moral simply because at the time, we say it is.

And what do you think about WWII or Bosnia?  Was killing Nazis/genocidal Serbs immoral and wrong or in some cases is killing someone NOT in individual self-defense not as absolutely immoral as you say because at times it's necessary?

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But that's not true. First of all, you can argue that it's wrong because inevitably innocent people wind up getting executed. And you can point out that death sentences are influenced by juror misperceptions, inadequate representation, gender, racism (from deathpenaltyinfo.org: Modern studies of the death penalty continue to find a correlation between sentencing and race. The studies consistently show that those who kill white victims are much more likely to receive the death penalty than those who kill black victims) and other inequalities.

Yes, but you could say that about sentencing people to long prison sentences.  They're innocent yet are punished for it, but I don't see the argument that because we're human and make mistakes and that all institutions are thereby flawed in some way, we need to do away with our justice system.  Allowances are made.

As for the race issue, all that means is that the white person got off easy, not that they didn't also deserve the death penalty. As for inadequate representation, well, if you were accused of a crime, wouldn't you get the best attorney you could afford?  That's the capitalist system.  You get what you pay for.  To argue against that goes against what our country is based on.

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And in practical terms, you can argue that capital punishment is not effective at deterring crime -- on the contrary, I believe it encourages crime. The United States, the only Western country that allows capital punishment, also has the highest crime rate among Western industrialized countries. And states where capital punishment is legal tend to have higher murder rates. Here's a chart ranking states by murder rates. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=169#MRord (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=169#MRord) The states with the highest murder rates are at the top. The states highlighted in yellow are those that DON'T allow capital punishment. You'll notice that the yellow states are concentrated at the low end of the list.

But this argument completely fall apart when

1) you also point out that despite the highest rate of convicted felons in the world - sitting out prison sentences - that that hasn't deterred crime either.

and

2)  the death penalty isn't supposed to deter crime.  It's merely punishment for the most heinous of killers because we don't want to punish the convicted sadistic rapist/murderer of children the same way we do a guy who has stolen one too many cars - treating his crime as no better or worse than a property crime.

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Fine, but that's a direct contradiction of what you said in the first place, that juries make mistakes in rape trials. So you could argue that, through education, they're improving. But your point originally was that they do make mistakes. I agree, and that's one problem with capital punishment.

See above.  We don't live in a perfect world.  People and institutions make mistakes.  Throwing the baby out with the bathwater because of imperfections doesn't make much sense.

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No, we're talking about capital punishment. I don't think we specified a specific global region. Gary's point was that in very recent memory homosexuality was considered a deviant crime here. I added that, in some countries, it is still a capital crime.

True, but only in countries where religion plays a key role in government - or are theocracies.  Most modern countries in the West have gotten away from judging people on moral standards and as you see, the punishment for such 'crimes' has diminished until they aren't crimes at all.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: souxi on November 10, 2007, 02:06:37 pm
I never knew that the reason gay men in the US are called faggots is because of the pile of sticks gay men were burnt on?? Thats terrible!!
Delalluvia, in the UK a "fag" is a cigarette, a "faggot" is actually something you eat, it,s a meat dish. Very nice is it too, smothered in gravy with potatoes. :)
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 10, 2007, 02:08:41 pm
I never knew that the reason gay men in the US are called faggots is because of the pile of sticks gay men were burnt on?? Thats terrible!!
Delalluvia, in the UK a "fag" is a cigarette, a "faggot" is actually something you eat, it,s a meat dish. Very nice is it too, smothered in gravy with potatoes. :)

I stand corrected.   :laugh:  That dish sounds wonderful, I don't recall seeing it on menus while I was in London.  I guess it's not there for the same reason they're phasing out or renaming the dessert - "Spotted Dick".  :laugh:
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: souxi on November 10, 2007, 02:22:07 pm
I stand corrected.   :laugh:  That dish sounds wonderful, I don't recall seeing it on menus while I was in London.  I guess it's not there for the same reason they're phasing out or renaming the dessert - "Spotted Dick".  :laugh:

Here you go hun. Good old brains faggots. Heat them up in the oven for about 40 minutes, serve with mashed spuds, veg and gravy...yum.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 10, 2007, 02:24:28 pm
Here you go hun. Good old brains faggots. Heat them up in the oven for about 40 minutes, serve with mashed spuds, veg and gravy...yum.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Who does the marketing for these people?  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 10, 2007, 04:06:50 pm
Boy or Girl,  the 18 year old today would be labeled a sex offender and required to register in the state he lives in.    For the rest of his life he will carry this scarlet letter and be denyed housing, job discrimination or worse if his neighbors find his name on the list.    Look how many sex offenders get their picture on the evening news whenever some neighborhood gets wind of them moving in.     All because a horny teenager got laid.   

Bingo.  Statutory rape cases are prosectued regardless of the sex of the perpetrator and victim.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 10, 2007, 08:17:28 pm
But if they do get out of prison - and they do have chances at parole?

Well, you don't let them out if you think they are going to kill again. Now I predict you're going to say that institutions are fallible and there's no way of guaranteeing they won't kill again. You're right. But I'd rather take that risk than have the state do the killing.

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But what are morals?  As you and Gary have pointed out, morals have fluctuated throughout the centuries.  What is moral in one era isn't in another and vice-versa, so there aren't really any moral absolutes.  There is only moral relativism.  Something is moral or isn't moral simply because at the time, we say it is.

There is not "only moral relativism" in my view. Human attitudes, such as those toward homosexuality, have fluctuated throughout the centuries. That doesn't mean homosexuality used to be immoral. It never was. People just thought, wrongly, that it was. Just like slavery was never morally OK, genocide isn't morally OK, etc. -- even though some people have thought they were.

In my view, there are some moral absolutes, and one of them is that killing is wrong.

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And what do you think about WWII or Bosnia?  Was killing Nazis/genocidal Serbs immoral and wrong or in some cases is killing someone NOT in individual self-defense not as absolutely immoral as you say because at times it's necessary?

At times it's necessary to prevent the killing of other innocents, which to me is the moral equivalent of self-defense. Now I predict you're going to say that's what the death penalty does -- keeps heinous criminals from killing other innocents. But there are other options of what to do with heinous criminals, mainly imprisonment, because you already have them in custody. On the battlefield, other options are more limited. However, you don't kill POWs.

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Yes, but you could say that about sentencing people to long prison sentences.  They're innocent yet are punished for it, but I don't see the argument that because we're human and make mistakes and that all institutions are thereby flawed in some way, we need to do away with our justice system.  Allowances are made
.

Yes but I'd rather wrongly sentence an innocent person to prison. Not just because of moral issues, but also  because you can always release someone from prison if you find out they're innocent. If you've already killed them, well ...

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As for the race issue, all that means is that the white person got off easy, not that they didn't also deserve the death penalty.

The race distinction isn't just white vs. black criminals. It's that people who kill a white person are more likely to get the death penalty than people who kill a black person. I'm not comfortable with that kind of race-influenced sentencing.

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As for inadequate representation, well, if you were accused of a crime, wouldn't you get the best attorney you could afford?  That's the capitalist system.  You get what you pay for.  To argue against that goes against what our country is based on.

Don't get me started on the flaws in the capitalist system. But in this case, IMO the state should not create a system in which personal wealth determines whether or not you're allowed to go on living.

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1) you also point out that despite the highest rate of convicted felons in the world - sitting out prison sentences - that that hasn't deterred crime either.

Well, a lot of those convicted felons are there because of the "war on drugs," not because of murder.
 
And in any case, it's fallacious to argue that we should go ahead and use something that doesn't work just because a different strategy also doesn't work. The answer is to find something that DOES work. And in the meantime, don't kill people.

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the death penalty isn't supposed to deter crime.  It's merely punishment for the most heinous of killers because we don't want to punish the convicted sadistic rapist/murderer of children the same way we do a guy who has stolen one too many cars - treating his crime as no better or worse than a property crime.

Well, I would say it's worse to rape someone than it is to steal a car. Do we execute rapists, too, in order to make that distinction? Or maybe just cut off a body part? Do we have to find whole, distinctly different punishments for every category of crime?

No. The way you treat a murderer more severely than a car thief is by giving the murderer a longer sentence.

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See above.  We don't live in a perfect world.  People and institutions make mistakes.  Throwing the baby out with the bathwater because of imperfections doesn't make much sense.

Allowing the state to kill innocent people is a pretty big imperfection.

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True, but only in countries where religion plays a key role in government - or are theocracies.  Most modern countries in the West have gotten away from judging people on moral standards and as you see, the punishment for such 'crimes' has diminished until they aren't crimes at all.

Then why is marijuana illegal? The simple reason (kind of simplistic, I know, because there are also reasons involving culture and liquor lobbies and so on, but it's at least one reason) is that a lot of voters think drug use is morally wrong.


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on November 10, 2007, 09:33:13 pm
Yes, I strongly support the death penalty for certain crimes.
Yes, I strongly support a reform of the court appeals structure that currently results in endless delays in the administration of the penalty.
Yes, I strongly support rights of the families of the victims of capital crimes.
No, I do not believe that "lethal injection" is "cruel and unusual", neither is hanging, or the gas chamber.
And, no I do not care at all if any of the friends or foes of the US object to US usage of the death penalty.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 11, 2007, 01:58:23 pm
I think it's our understanding of morality that is relative, not the morals themselves.

Well put, Gary. I agree.

I think there are some moral absolutes, but not many. Gary's post inspired me to look up the Ten Commandments. Here they are:

I am the Lord thy God
Thou shalt have no other gods before me
Thou shalt not make for thyself an idol
Thou shalt not make wrongful use of the name of thy God
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
Honor thy Father and Mother
Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house (or, just for Gary, ass)
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife

(There are 12 here because some of them are combined different ways in different religious traditions.)

Now, everybody's going to have different views on this. But IMO, there are only a couple of things on there that are wrong in some absolute constant sense (murder, bearing false witness). Stealing is almost always wrong, but there are those "stealing a loaf of bread to feed a starving child" exceptions. A few more I think are usually no-nos, but again I can imagine exceptions: adultery, coveting the neighbor's spouse, honoring thy father and mother. For example, what if your parents were abusive? But if not, yes, by all means honor them.

And the others I don't consider requirements at all! But, as I say, others will have different opinions.


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 11, 2007, 02:50:30 pm
Well put, Gary. I agree.

I think there are some moral absolutes, but not many. Gary's post inspired me to look up the Ten Commandments. Here they are:

I am the Lord thy God
Thou shalt have no other gods before me
Thou shalt not make for thyself an idol
Thou shalt not make wrongful use of the name of thy God
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
Honor thy Father and Mother
Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house (or, just for Gary, ass)
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife

(There are 12 here because some of them are combined different ways in different religious traditions.)

Now, everybody's going to have different views on this. But IMO, there are only a couple of things on there that are wrong in some absolute constant sense (murder, bearing false witness). Stealing is almost always wrong, but there are those "stealing a loaf of bread to feed a starving child" exceptions. A few more I think are usually no-nos, but again I can imagine exceptions: adultery, coveting the neighbor's spouse, honoring thy father and mother. For example, what if your parents were abusive? But if not, yes, by all means honor them.

And the others I don't consider requirements at all! But, as I say, others will have different opinions.

So basically you're making exceptions to the word of god.  As you can tell from the writing of the Hebrew Bible, god didn't make any exceptions.  He didn't say "Thou shalt not steal - but it's OK if a b or c".  You didn't steal - for any reason - period.

You can't imagine allowing a child to starve, but you need to read the Hebrew Bible a bit more.  He not only allows it, he even condones and orders the murder of children.  So I don't think he would have a problem with allowing the child of one of his Chosen to starve, so long as they remained loyal to the law.

So in that case, if you make exceptions, then it's perfectly justifiable if someone else does as well,  "Thou shalt not murder - but it's OK if a b or c."

Very few people who claim to be religious follow "Thou shalt honor the Sabbath" rule as well.  On their Sabbath days, they're sleeping in, having lunch with friends, going to the movies, surfing the net...those friends of mine who are very devout, spend the day at home - having cooked meals the day before so no one in the family works on the Sabbath - they watch no TV, do not go out or talk to friends, they stay in or are in church off and on all day.  Otherwise I guess they read the bible or talk about religious things.  One Jewish lady I know doesn't use electrical lights during the Sabbath and I've read recently that some Jewish people are hiring non-Jews to press the elevator button for them in high-rise dwellings so they can follow their commandments about not 'working'.  I'm not quite sure what they do throughout the day...but I know what they don't do.

The 10 Commandments - and according to the Hebrew Bible, I believe there are actually several hundred more - were not moral absolutes - because people made exceptions all the time and they still do and they do so because these rules are almost impossible to follow:

Do you have a cross or other symbol of your faith?  Then you are an idolator.  For those who scoff, there are religions that have none.  They say that's because they're following this rule.

Do you swear to god?  Swear in god's name?  Even say the name God as an exclamatory?  Some of the devout - in following this rule - use a euphemism and don't even spell it, they spell it g - d.

As for adultery...well, remember, there was no divorce in those days that was really approved of except for adultery and barrenness, I believe and even later, Jesus said those weren't god's exceptions, they were man's and in god's eyes, there was no divorce - not for any reason - period.  And those who did were adulterers forever.

You could go on and on about how these rules - moral absolutes - are not absolute at all.  People make exceptions and it seems disingenuous to claim that one exception is any better or worse than another religiously or morally speaking.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 11, 2007, 03:06:49 pm
Well, you don't let them out if you think they are going to kill again. Now I predict you're going to say that institutions are fallible and there's no way of guaranteeing they won't kill again. You're right. But I'd rather take that risk than have the state do the killing.

OK, but I don't think the family of their victims would agree.

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There is not "only moral relativism" in my view. Human attitudes, such as those toward homosexuality, have fluctuated throughout the centuries. That doesn't mean homosexuality used to be immoral. It never was. People just thought, wrongly, that it was. Just like slavery was never morally OK, genocide isn't morally OK, etc. -- even though some people have thought they were.

In my view, there are some moral absolutes, and one of them is that killing is wrong.

But you make exceptions - so it's really not absolute, not even in your eyes - see your below comment:

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At times it's necessary to prevent the killing of other innocents, which to me is the moral equivalent of self-defense. Now I predict you're going to say that's what the death penalty does -- keeps heinous criminals from killing other innocents. But there are other options of what to do with heinous criminals, mainly imprisonment, because you already have them in custody. On the battlefield, other options are more limited. However, you don't kill POWs.

True, but then there are people who believe the rule is absolute - see the Amish in the recent horrendous murder of school girls - or the Quakers in any war. They don't believe in killing - for any reason - because they believe their commandment is an absolute.

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Yes but I'd rather wrongly sentence an innocent person to prison. Not just because of moral issues, but also  because you can always release someone from prison if you find out they're innocent. If you've already killed them, well

Which is why I support long appeals process.  Give technology plenty of time and their defense as many opportunities as possible to bring in new evidence, ask for new trials, ask for clemency etc.  I certainly don't approve of convicting them in the morning and executing them in the afternoon.

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The race distinction isn't just white vs. black criminals. It's that people who kill a white person are more likely to get the death penalty than people who kill a black person. I'm not comfortable with that kind of race-influenced sentencing.

I still don't see the issue.  The white person is unlikely to get off with a light sentence for the same crime - he just didn't get executed.  That doesn't mean he didn't deserve the punishment or that the black person did not.  One just got it and the other didn't.

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Don't get me started on the flaws in the capitalist system. But in this case, IMO the state should not create a system in which personal wealth determines whether or not you're allowed to go on living.

Yep and they're big flaws.  Unfortunately, you're going to have a lot of people reply to you that the system is set up for those who can excel have the opportunity to do so and thus gain the rewards.  Everyone should strive toward the same - but seeing as not everyone has the same talents not everyone is going to make it and those that do make it, it isn't fair that they should have to have their rewards reduced for those who don't.

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Well, a lot of those convicted felons are there because of the "war on drugs," not because of murder.

True, but they're not on death row.  We're talking heinous crimes.
 
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And in any case, it's fallacious to argue that we should go ahead and use something that doesn't work just because a different strategy also doesn't work. The answer is to find something that DOES work. And in the meantime, don't kill people.

Well, both systems do work to a degree.  Prison sentences don't work, because convicts are very likely to break the law again and end up right back in prison.  Executions bluntly solve the problem the first time.

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Well, I would say it's worse to rape someone than it is to steal a car. Do we execute rapists, too, in order to make that distinction? Or maybe just cut off a body part? Do we have to find whole, distinctly different punishments for every category of crime?

Well we do, don't we?  People who write hot checks don't get the same punishment as those who rape children and dismember them.

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No. The way you treat a murderer more severely than a car thief is by giving the murderer a longer sentence.

So you do agree that we should find different punishments for every category of crime.

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Allowing the state to kill innocent people is a pretty big imperfection.

Yep, so is letting murderers go.

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Then why is marijuana illegal? The simple reason (kind of simplistic, I know, because there are also reasons involving culture and liquor lobbies and so on, but it's at least one reason) is that a lot of voters think drug use is morally wrong.

I think it's a Christian morality thing personally.  The same reason they don't sell alcohol down in my part of the country or stores are closed on Sunday.  Not really sure.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Dagi on November 11, 2007, 03:25:22 pm
To answer the question on top of this thread: No, I don't support the death penalty.

Since I'm not a person of faith (and even if I were) I want to find arguments that are independent of faith, or the believe in a higher force that could provide justice after death.

One of the strongest arguments has already been pointed out by Gary (and maybe others, I admit I haven't read the whole thread): those who are to decide whether a person is worthy of living or not don't deserve our confidence. Yes, those have the might to decide which person to sentence to prison, but to speak here with Ineedcrayons, I'd rather sentence an innocent person to prison but to death, since death is irreversible.
This argument alone is sufficient for me to be against death penalty, but I'll say something to some other things that have been mentioned here.

As for the argument that death penalty is the same as self-defense: Self-defense is a preventive means, it is meant to keep a person from killing me or doing me harm.  I've learned how to kill a person with my own hands, but nevertheless I'd kill a person only if I saw no other way, I think that's called the appropriateness of the means.
In order to prevent a person (and I don't even want to speak of this person as a known killer, since we all know how often courts are wrong) from killing more people it is not necessary to kill this person, that would not be an appropriate means for this purpose, since it is sufficient to put them into prison.

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As for inadequate representation, well, if you were accused of a crime, wouldn't you get the best attorney you could afford?  That's the capitalist system.  You get what you pay for.  To argue against that goes against what our country is based on.

Delalluvia, I suppose you belong to those who could afford a good attorney? I still can't believe that you actually meant what you said there.


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In my view, there are some moral absolutes, and one of them is that killing is wrong.

Absolutely my point of view, Ineedcrayons. There is the opinion that a tyrant may be killed, but I do not agree. It is only a small step from the notion that a person can lose the right to live because of their deeds to the notion that a person can lose this right for other reasons (race, sexual orientation, religion, you name it).

And I wonder, do those who support death penalty ever think about the fact that it is not the state that gives the lethal injection, it is not the state that presses the button of the electric chair or causes the death of the sentenced person in any other way? It is always a person. What does the state to those persons?


I've never been good at arguing, let alone in a foreign language, but I'd love to hear your points of view to what I said.

Dagi




Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 11, 2007, 03:34:36 pm

Delalluvia, I suppose you belong to those who could afford a good attorney? I still can't believe that you actually meant what you said there.

I'm afraid not, Dagi.  I couldn't afford a lawyer if I needed one.  I would have to depend on the state.  They are provided free of charge for me.

Yes, the quality may not be the best, but what's the alternative?  The State forcing individuals to use only as good a lawyer as the other party?

So, if some movie star has a paparazzo sue them for running over his foot because he was blocking their car, the movie star shouldn't be able to find a lawyer to help them because the paparazzo can't afford the same?   How is that 'justice' for them?

EDITED TO ADD:

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And I wonder, do those who support death penalty ever think about the fact that it is not the state that gives the lethal injection, it is not the state that presses the button of the electric chair or causes the death of the sentenced person in any other way? It is always a person. What does the state to those persons?

It's difficult for them.  I've read some documentation about it.  But technology marches on and soon that will be resolved.  Right now, two people press the button - so like the firing squad with one shooter armed with a blank - they can have some doubt about who actually did it.  If they have problems, you almost always hear from one member of the family of the victim who would be glad to do it in their stead.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Dagi on November 11, 2007, 03:48:46 pm
But we don't speak about a movie star that's got hit by a paparazzo. We talk about whether it is just that a person is more likely to be sentenced to death because they can't afford a good attorney. We talk about life or death depending on money. I know that it depends on money in every day life, since poor people can afford only cheap food, and don't get the same medical treatment as rich people, I know. But it's still not just, and I argue against it.

To speak more clearly: In case you were innocent and sentenced to death bcause the attorney provided by the government was not as good as the attorney your rich counterpart can afford, would you still be of the same opinion?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 11, 2007, 03:58:36 pm
But we don't speak about a movie star that's got hit by a paparazzo.

No, but you're talking about the same concept.  One person is less financially able than the other.  One less financially able sues the more financially able.  Should the person most able to afford counsel for a defense, be denied that defense because the other person cannot?



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We talk about whether it is just that a person is more likely to be sentenced to death because they can't afford a good attorney.

And what are they on trial for?  Prosecutors don't ask for the death penalty for jaywalking.  It has to be a very serious crime with plenty of back up evidence - especially in this day and age of DNA evidence.

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We talk about life or death depending on money. I know that it depends on money in every day life, since poor people can afford only cheap food, and don't get the same medical treatment as rich people, I know. But it's still not just, and I argue against it.

It's not just, but what is the alternative?

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To speak more clearly: In case you were innocent and sentenced to death bcause the attorney provided by the government was not as good as the attorney your rich counterpart can afford, would you still be of the same opinion?

What crime am I accused of?  If I butchered some innocent person for some sick fantasy of mine, I can't say what I would think because I'm obviously not a well person. [shrug]  This is a very complex question and many ways to look at it, so I really couldn't say.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Dagi on November 11, 2007, 04:00:43 pm
A very clear NO from me!

Can of worms, David, can of worms.....  
But a necessary one!

 :laugh: Oh yes, Penthesilea!
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Dagi on November 11, 2007, 04:10:18 pm
No, but you're talking about the same concept.  One person is less financially able than the other.  One less financially able sues the more financially able.  Should the person most able to afford counsel for a defense, be denied that defense because the other person cannot?

I resent that the quality of the defense, and therefor the outcome, depends on how financially able a person is. One possibility would be to make all attorneys governmental, so that everyone gets the same quality.



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And what are they on trial for?  Prosecutors don't ask for the death penalty for jaywalking.  It has to be a very serious crime with plenty of back up evidence - especially in this day and age of DNA evidence.

I don´t get your point of view here, sorry.

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It's not just, but what is the alternative?

See above. (at least as for attorneys)

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What crime am I accused of?  If I butchered some innocent person for some sick fantasy of mine, I can't say what I would think because I'm obviously not a well person. [shrug]  This is a very complex question and many ways to look at it, so I really couldn't say.

I said you are innocent, and nevertheless sentenced to death (that happens a lot, in case this has not yet come to your ears).
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 11, 2007, 05:02:39 pm
So basically you're making exceptions to the word of god.  As you can tell from the writing of the Hebrew Bible, god didn't make any exceptions.  He didn't say "Thou shalt not steal - but it's OK if a b or c".  You didn't steal - for any reason - period. ...

I'm not clear on what you're arguing in this entire post. Of course I'm making exceptions to "the word of God." I'm not religious in that way. Admittedly, my listing of the 10 commandments was a bit OT, so maybe that was confusing.

But as I thought I'd made clear, I don't believe the 10 commandments are "the word of God," I don't believe the Bible is the word of God, I don't necessarily believe in God and I don't agree that all of the 10 commandments are valid rules. So yes, I certainly do make exceptions to what, IMO, are the words of fallible human beings.

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You can't imagine allowing a child to starve, but you need to read the Hebrew Bible a bit more.  He not only allows it, he even condones and orders the murder of children.

Of course. See above. "God" and I don't agree about this.

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So in that case, if you make exceptions, then it's perfectly justifiable if someone else does as well,  "Thou shalt not murder - but it's OK if a b or c."

No, that would not be "perfectly justifiable" in my view. I'm talking about what are, IMO, moral absolutes. I'm not saying everybody can pick and choose which moral rules are right for them.

Obviously different people have different views on what those moral rules are. We talked earlier about people who think homosexuality is wrong, even deserving of death. That, to them, is a moral absolute. However, that doesn't mean they are right. Am I making myself clear? Do you see the distinction?

Let's see if I can phrase it differently. I believe there are moral absolutes. I believe different people have different ideas of what those moral absolutes are. That does not, however change the moral absolutes -- it just means some people are wrong.

In MY opinion, "murder is a no-no" is a moral absolute. You disagree, when it comes to capital punishment. Therefore, if there are moral absolutes and one of them concerns murder in the case of capital punishment, then one of us is wrong. I happen to think I'm right. Why wouldn't I?

OK, but I don't think the family of their victims would agree.

Well, let them come onto this message board and argue their case, then. I'm telling you what I think.

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But you make exceptions - so it's really not absolute, not even in your eyes - see your below comment:

Yes, it still is an absolute. The absolute moral rule, IMO, is: Killing is wrong, except for self-defense or to save other innocent people, as in WWII or to stop a genocide. There's no reason a moral absolute can't have exceptions. But those are exceptions for particular kinds of killing, not exceptions for particular instances. In other words, to say "Killing is wrong except in self-defense" is a moral absolute. To say "Killing is wrong unless you happen to think the person is really really bad" or "Killing is wrong unless the victim is black" or "Killing is wrong unless the defendant can't get a good attorney" or "Killing is wrong unless the victim's family is really in favor of it" -- those are examples of either moral relativism or mistaken moral absolutes.  Do you see the difference?

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True, but then there are people who believe the rule is absolute - see the Amish in the recent horrendous murder of school girls - or the Quakers in any war. They don't believe in killing - for any reason - because they believe their commandment is an absolute.

Yup. As I said, different people hold different opinions about what the moral absolutes are. Maybe they're right and I'm wrong -- I don't know. All I can go by is what I believe.

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Which is why I support long appeals process.  Give technology plenty of time and their defense as many opportunities as possible to bring in new evidence, ask for new trials, ask for clemency etc.  I certainly don't approve of convicting them in the morning and executing them in the afternoon.

This reminds me of another practical argument your friend could have used in her debate: Executions cost the state much more than life imprisonment does.

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I still don't see the issue.  The white person is unlikely to get off with a light sentence for the same crime - he just didn't get executed.  That doesn't mean he didn't deserve the punishment or that the black person did not.  One just got it and the other didn't.

The issue is that it reveals the fallibility of death-penalty sentencing. You may think they both deserved to get a death sentence. But they didn't. If the system is that capricious, it is unconstitutional and morally intolerable.

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Everyone should strive toward the same - but seeing as not everyone has the same talents not everyone is going to make it and those that do make it, it isn't fair that they should have to have their rewards reduced for those who don't.

Inequality is part of life. But it should not be part of the judicial system and government policy.

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True, but they're not on death row.  We're talking heinous crimes.

In this case, we were talking about why the U.S. has more imprisoned felons than other Western industrialized countries yet has a higher murder rate. Part of the answer is that not all of those imprisoned felons are murderers. The U.S. has more people on death row because the U.S. is the only one of those countries with the death penalty. By definition, they have NO people on death row.
 
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Well we do, don't we?  People who write hot checks don't get the same punishment as those who rape children and dismember them.

So you do agree that we should find different punishments for every category of crime.

Of course, if you're talking length rather than kind. Del, do you remember what you said that I was responding to? You said we should have the death penalty so that a murder doesn't get the same punishment as a car thief. I said they shouldn't get the same punishment -- they should get different lengths of sentences. But they don't need whole different kinds of punishments, as you contended.

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I think it's a Christian morality thing personally.  The same reason they don't sell alcohol down in my part of the country or stores are closed on Sunday.  Not really sure.

At this point, it has a lot to do with business lobbying. But yes, it is at least grounded in Christian morality. Do you remember what you said here that I was responding to? You said in this country we don't judge people based on morality. But we do.


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on November 11, 2007, 05:21:05 pm


     Ok I was done with my participation in this forum...but..I would like to qualify the terminology here, if i might..I am not a believer either.  But I did use to be, and know the tenants of the bible. 
     The term murder, is not equated with self defense, or execution...It is the meaning of laying in wait,
or through anger or vengeance.  Thou shalt not do or (commit) murder.  That is the rule of which your
arguements are based.  Not on execution.  The bible clearly allows for that.  An eye for and Eye and,
a tooth for a tooth...That is all provided you believe the bible is the word of god, on which you base
your moral tenants.  Other than that, it gets pretty arbitrary.  My own opinion is thus and such.....
Stating what a particular person thinks is or is not moral, is a subject for a different debate I believe. 
      To state what any persons opinions on the moral tenants, are,are  as varied as there are people.
    This is the way I see the term...
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 11, 2007, 05:27:21 pm
Stating what a particular person thinks is or is not moral, is a subject for a different debate I believe. 
      To state what any persons opinions on the moral tenants, are, as varied as there are people.

True, people's opinions are varied, but I don't know how to discuss the death penalty without discussing morality.

I shouldn't have brought in the Ten Commandments because that just confused the issue. They aren't my version of moral rules.


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 11, 2007, 05:46:14 pm
I resent that the quality of the defense, and therefor the outcome, depends on how financially able a person is. One possibility would be to make all attorneys governmental, so that everyone gets the same quality.

OK, but you wouldn't necessarily get quality.  All you would get would be attorneys willing to take the pay the government is offering.  How would you equate skill so you could guarantee everyone gets the same quality of representation?

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I don´t get your point of view here, sorry.

What I was saying is that not all cases are instantly death penalty cases.  Some should be, but the prosecutors for whatever reason don't think they'll be able to get it, so they don't try.  When people are accused of heinous crimes, the death penalty isn't always an instant option.

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I said you are innocent, and nevertheless sentenced to death (that happens a lot, in case this has not yet come to your ears).

You'll have to be more specific.  I am innocent - how?  I was in the same room as my murderous boyfriend and did nothing to try and stop him from committing murder?  I didn't actually pull the trigger but I also didn't turn in the person that did?  I was so brow-beaten by my abusive sick husband that I didn't rescue any of the girls he kidnapped and tortured to death?  How do I manage to get accused of a heinous crime yet am completely innocent?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 11, 2007, 06:00:43 pm
How do I manage to get accused of a heinous crime yet am completely innocent?

The ones I hear of usually involve mistaken identities or false accusations.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 11, 2007, 06:04:50 pm
I'm not clear on what you're arguing in this entire post. Of course I'm making exceptions to "the word of God." I'm not religious in that way. Admittedly, my listing of the 10 commandments was a bit OT, so maybe that was confusing.

But as I thought I'd made clear, I don't believe the 10 commandments are "the word of God," I don't believe the Bible is the word of God, I don't necessarily believe in God and I don't agree that all of the 10 commandments are valid rules. So yes, I certainly do make exceptions to what, IMO, are the words of fallible human beings.

OK, then I don't understand why you brought up the Commandments at all.

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No, that would not be "perfectly justifiable" in my view. I'm talking about what are, IMO, moral absolutes. I'm not saying everybody can pick and choose which moral rules are right for them.

OK, I'm just pointing out that because you do so means other people will as well and for the same justification so moral absolutes aren't really absolutes.  They are to you, but not to others, so that makes them not absolute.

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Obviously different people have different views on what those moral rules are. We talked earlier about people who think homosexuality is wrong, even deserving of death. That, to them, is a moral absolute. However, that doesn't mean they are right. Am I making myself clear? Do you see the distinction?

Yes, but we are talking about the modern West, not other countries or countries that are theocracies.

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Let's see if I can phrase it differently. I believe there are moral absolutes. I believe different people have different ideas of what those moral absolutes are. That does not, however change the moral absolutes -- it just means some people are wrong.

OK.

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Yes, it still is an absolute. The absolute moral rule, IMO, is: Killing is wrong, except for self-defense or to save other innocent people, as in WWII or to stop a genocide. There's no reason a moral absolute can't have exceptions.

Sure it can, by simple definition.  It's no longer 'absolute', it's must be a run-of-mill moral.

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But those are exceptions for particular kinds of killing, not exceptions for particular instances. In other words, to say "Killing is wrong except in self-defense" is a moral absolute.

I disagree.  The second you say 'except', that's an exception to the rule and therefore the rule is no longer absolute.

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This reminds me of another practical argument your friend could have used in her debate: Executions cost the state much more than life imprisonment does.

That's the only one we could come up with that wasn't based on emotional arguments and even she was going to have to determine whether the research done 10-20 years ago was still correct based on inflation rates and longer lives of prisoners.

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The issue is that it reveals the fallibility of death-penalty sentencing. You may think they both deserved to get a death sentence. But they didn't. If the system is that capricious, it is unconstitutional and morally intolerable.

So we should just do away with our justice system all together?

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Inequality is part of life. But it should not be part of the judicial system and government policy.

And you can separate our judicial system and government policy from the humans who run it - and are infalliable - how?
 
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Of course, if you're talking length rather than kind. Del, do you remember what you said that I was responding to? You said we should have the death penalty so that a murder doesn't get the same punishment as a car thief. I said they shouldn't get the same punishment -- they should get different lengths of sentences. But they don't need whole different kinds of punishments, as you contended.

It's the same thing, though.  Obviously, there are white-collar prisons - what they call 'country club' prisons and hard-time lockups.  We do differentiate in punishments and the length of time and how 'hard' that time is.  Obviously the head of Enron is not going to be doing time in some cellblock next to Aryan brotherhood murderers.  We make distinctions.

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At this point, it has a lot to do with business lobbying. But yes, it is at least grounded in Christian morality. Do you remember what you said here that I was responding to? You said in this country we don't judge people based on morality. But we do.

I said we are getting away from it.  We're not quite there yet.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Dagi on November 11, 2007, 06:05:59 pm
OK, but you wouldn't necessarily get quality.  All you would get would be attorneys willing to take the pay the government is offering.  How would you equate skill so you could guarantee everyone gets the same quality of representation?

I could not guarantee that, of course, yet it is a fact that attorneys payed by a private person are more ambitious than those the government pays for.

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What I was saying is that not all cases are instantly death penalty cases.  Some should be, but the prosecutors for whatever reason don't think they'll be able to get it, so they don't try.  When people are accused of heinous crimes, the death penalty isn't always an instant option.

And I´m thankful for that.

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You'll have to be more specific.  I am innocent - how?  I was in the same room as my murderous boyfriend and did nothing to try and stop him from committing murder?  I didn't actually pull the trigger but I also didn't turn in the person that did?  I was so brow-beaten by my abusive sick husband that I didn't rescue any of the girls he kidnapped and tortured to death?  How do I manage to get accused of a heinous crime yet am completely innocent?

Girl you just don´t get it. I said you were innocent. Innocent. Are you actually so naive as to think that anything of what you wrote must happen so that you are accused to have commited a heinous crime?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 11, 2007, 06:08:47 pm
The ones I hear of usually involve mistaken identities or false accusations.

And those are usually the easiest to defend, since cops, prosecutors, defendants and the judges all know eyewitness testimony is the weakest accusation out there.  False accusations these days take a lot of evidence to prove.  I'm not saying they didn't happen in the past, they obviously have, but those are becoming less a possibility these days.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Dagi on November 11, 2007, 06:10:22 pm
I wish it was as you say. ::)
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 11, 2007, 06:16:32 pm
I could not guarantee that, of course, yet it is a fact that attorneys payed by a private person are more ambitious than those the government pays for.

True, so if every laywer was a government employee, you will have attorneys that are not as ambitious as they would be if they were in private practice.  Do you think that will get you the quality you are looking for?

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Girl you just don´t get it. I said you were innocent. Innocent. Are you actually so naive as to think that anything of what you wrote must happen so that you are accused to have commited a heinous crime?

Of course, the West is not the torture chamber, police state that you seem to want to make it out to be.  Our judicial system is still comprised of people trying to do their best to administer justice, who are actually very reluctant to hand out the death penalty.  You make it seem like they're all bloodthirsty crowds in an arena, happy to drag innocent people off the street, and based on no evidence whatsoever instantly convict them of a death penalty crime.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Dagi on November 11, 2007, 06:24:10 pm

  You make it seem like they're all bloodthirsty crowds in an arena, happy to drag innocent people off the street, and based on no evidence whatsoever instantly convict them of a death penalty crime.

No, I didn´t say that. I said there are persons who are innocent and nevertheless sentenced to death (and I remind you that death is nowadays still irreversible), and every single one of them is an argument against death penalty, it does not depend on their number.

And I remind you that few evidences are infallible, not even "scientific" ones.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 11, 2007, 06:28:45 pm
No, I didn´t say that. I said there are persons who are innocent and nevertheless sentenced to death (and I remind you that death is nowadays still irreversible), and every single one of them is an argument against death penalty, it does not depend on their number.

And I remind you that few evidences are infallible, not even "scientific" ones.

I don't disagree that that has happened in the past, but it's becoming less and less an occurence.  Simply because of the state of forensic science and because a great many states are moving beyond the accusatory basis.

Like Gary said, a person in this country is innocent until proven guilty.  The state has to prove they are guilty.  And one person's accusation against another without any proof is no longer sufficient to convince grand juries to bring charges against anyone because it's literally he said/he said.  A crime might have occurred, but without actual proof, it will not go to trial.

So a person can accuse another person mistakenly or not of a crime, but without evidence that the other person was involved, it won't go forward.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Dagi on November 11, 2007, 06:32:28 pm
If you want to belive that, then do.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Dagi on November 11, 2007, 06:58:16 pm
Is this the plot for your third novel, Gary?  :laugh: Brilliant.  ;D
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Mikaela on November 11, 2007, 07:19:09 pm
Well, you'll have to give Del this: She's got willpower and stamina to be continuing to argue her opinion, when she's so clearly in the minority.

False accusations these days take a lot of evidence to prove.  I'm not saying they didn't happen in the past, they obviously have, but those are becoming less a possibility these days.

The couple of obvious miscarriages of justice that I know of involving first degree murder (and rape) - one in New Zealand, one in my own country - saw defendants convicted and sentenced in a manner that I bet would have equaled capital punishment in the US. In both cases, there was a huge public push to "find the guilty one" and the police was under much pressure. And in both cases the police and/or the prosecutor suppressed evidence and witnesses indicating the defendant was not guilty, and otherwise "massaged" the facts and evidence of the case to fit their theory and get the suspected person convicted. This has later been proven - in the case in my own country the poor innocent man served nearly the full sentence and he died just before being found unjustly convicted (after the real murderer confessed on *his* death bed, and the case and the evidence was re-opened and reviewed with fresh eyes.) The unjustly convicted man was deaf, and had physical disabilities, was a loner, and at the time of sentencing had very great disadvantages in defending himself.  :-\

This in my view is the most likely way that "false accusation" will happen today: The false accusors will be police and prosecutors, with the whole apparatus of their professions at their disposal to aid them in their accusations.  Police and prosecutors are career people, some will be less than humanitarians and prety cynical, and they're working under stress, eager to achieve and deliver a "case closed", especially in cases where there is a public outcry. If they think they've got the right guy, why not help the case along a little bit by suppressing "confusing" evidence, dismissing witnesses - or even actively planting evidence such as DNA traces or what not. After all, they *know* the guy is guilty, they just need to be sure that the jury sees it too.

I think it's totally naive to think such things will not happen in future as it has in the past - and I bet there are people on death row in the US today because of this.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 11, 2007, 08:07:59 pm
OK, I'm just pointing out that because you do so means other people will as well and for the same justification so moral absolutes aren't really absolutes.  They are to you, but not to others, so that makes them not absolute.

...  It's no longer 'absolute', it's must be a run-of-mill moral.

I'm still not making myself clear, then. I'm going to quote Gary again: "It's our understanding of the morals that is relative, not the morals themselves." That is, just because people disagree on what is right and wrong doesn't mean that whatever somebody thinks is OK for them. If that were the case, slavery and concentration camps would both have been just fine. No, the moral absolutes still exist, even if people interpret them incorrectly.

Another example: Just because Afghanis think homosexuality is wrong, doesn't mean homosexuality actually IS wrong in Afghanistan, but fine in the United States. No, it's one or the other. So either the Afghanis are incorrect, or the Americans are. You can probably guess which I vote for.

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The second you say 'except', that's an exception to the rule and therefore the rule is no longer absolute.

Sorry, but I have absolutely no problem calling "murder is wrong except in self defense or to defend other innocents" a moral absolute.

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That's the only one we could come up with that wasn't based on emotional arguments and even she was going to have to determine whether the research done 10-20 years ago was still correct based on inflation rates and longer lives of prisoners.

Tell your friend to check out this website: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/getcat.php?cid=3 (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/getcat.php?cid=3)

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So we should just do away with our justice system all together?

No. We shouldn't use it to kill people.

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And you can separate our judicial system and government policy from the humans who run it - and are infalliable - how?

I wasn't attempting to do that.

But if you're asking how the judicial system and government policy differs from the rest of life, the answer is they are public institutions and, in a democracy, are expected to attempt to treat all citizens equally, regardless of race, wealth and other demographic differences.

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It's the same thing, though.  Obviously, there are white-collar prisons - what they call 'country club' prisons and hard-time lockups.  We do differentiate in punishments and the length of time and how 'hard' that time is ...   We make distinctions.

Yep. That's what I said. That's why there's no need to kill anybody.


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: moremojo on November 12, 2007, 11:13:10 am
Now as for your outrage about my thoughts on love, and your challenge that not even I could love Hitler and Stalin and their kind, and that I couldn’t possibly envision a God who would accept them if they didn’t repent first.  All I can say is that yes, I can envision a God who would accept Hitler and Stalin, just as they are, or were as the case may be.  I can’t truly love them, but I don’t claim to be a perfect person.  But I do think people lash out at others out of hatred and self-interest, and that these things stem from a sense of isolation.  I think we do bad things to one another because we feel alone.  But if there is a God we are mistaken, and there is no need to try to save ourselves, because God will save us.  If you have faith then you feel at one with God and the whole of creation.  For a person of faith there is no need to strive toward anything, no need to climb over anyone to get to the top, because you would already have the world in whole, and you would believe that not even death would change this.  Of course no one has perfect faith.  Even the best of us will lash out sometimes.  We all make mistakes, and people like Hitler and Stalin made monstrously huge ones.  They hurt a lot of people, and I feel their victims’ pain and fury.  And if I had been directly effected by them I’d want to beat them with a ball bat I’m sure.  But that’s only because I’m not perfect.  Jesus, according to the New Testament, did tell us to turn the other cheek you know. 

I can tell you that I want to stop the Hitlers and the Stalins of the world.  Just as I want to stop gay bashing, either directed toward myself or someone else.  I’d even use deadly force if I had to.  And I’d have no problem with putting such people in prison.  But guess what, quyst, in my better moments I don’t want even Hitler and Stalin to be consigned to hell.  I don’t even believe in hell.  I believe that if there is a God he will save us all.  I think it’s love that turns us into better people.  I think it’s love that informs morality.  And if there is a God, and if he brought someone like Hitler or Stalin into his presence I think his love would transform them.  As Paul said, according to the New Testament, “now we see in a glass darkly, but then face to face.”  If there is a God, and if Hitler and Stalin no longer saw that dark glass they looked at in this life, but instead saw the face of God, I think they’d realize that there had been no need to try to conquer the world, there had been no need to see others as their enemy, no need to kill and push back, because they would realize that the competition had only been in their heads, and that they already had the world from the start.  So in my view of things there is a place in heaven even for Hitler and Stalin.

As for your plea that I love you, quyst, all I can say is that you have made that rather difficult.  You came to this site with the intention of going on the attack.  Your posts contained not even a hint that you were interested in the well being of anyone here.  So I, and others fought back.  I know I used some pretty harsh language against you.  But you presented yourself as someone who was utterly indifferent to my thoughts and feelings.  I only responded in kind.  Maybe a perfect person would have remained passive.  Maybe a perfect person would have taken the blows without complaint.  But I don’t claim to be perfect.  However, I can assure you that even when I was burning with hostility toward you, I would not have done anything more than give you a good shake if you were standing right here in front of me, and I probably would not have even went that far.  And I want you to know this, if nothing else I have said gets through, I don’t want you to be consigned to hell for disagreeing with me.  I don’t want you to be consigned to hell for any reason.  If there is a God, I hope that he saves you along with everyone else.  And if we can’t be friends here, I hope we can be friends in heaven.

Gary


Gary, you display such impressive wisdom and compassion, and I marvel at your eloquence in conveying your ideas and feelings. We are so lucky to have you among us.

Much of what you write here reminds me of what God tells Neale in the Conversations with God series of books. Those ideas have influenced me, and informed some of what I have written in this thread.

Peace,
Scott
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: moremojo on November 12, 2007, 01:05:16 pm
I'd be curious to know if our members who support the death penalty also support its implementation against adult persons who are being executed for crimes committed while they were children. It should go without saying that I am opposed to this, being against the death penalty for any reason, but I am curious about others' feelings. The U.S. is one of the few post-industrialized Western nations to continue this practice.

My apologies if this particular topic has already been addressed in the thread, and which I might have overlooked.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Mikaela on November 12, 2007, 01:15:36 pm
In the same vein, doesn't the US also use capital punishment in cases where the convict has such a low IQ that he/she must be considered obviously mentally handicapped / "retarded"? (Sorry if I am inadvertently using offensive words here - please bear in mind English is not my first language). I seem to recall rading of such a case.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 12, 2007, 02:30:53 pm
In the same vein, doesn't the US also use capital punishment in cases where the convict has such a low IQ that he/she must be considered obviously mentally handicapped / "retarded"? (Sorry if I am inadvertently using offensive words here - please bear in mind English is not my first language). I seem to recall rading of such a case.

According to my five minutes of internet research, in 2002 the U.S. Supreme Court ruled against executing people with IQs lower than 70. Before then, it had been legal (in the states where the death penalty is legal).

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 13, 2007, 09:32:35 am
Well, as someone who is on the no-death-penalty side but less into the "love the humanity of the criminal" perspective, I'll have to say that IMO there's a pretty big difference between hating someone because they're gay, black or poor -- and hating someone because they tortured people to death.

We're not responsible for our race, sexual orientation or, in many cases, our socioeconomic status. But we are responsible for our actions. Plus, there's nothing inherently bad or good about being black, white, gay, straight, poor or rich (well, rich can be nice, but you know what I mean -- it doesn't mean the person is good). Torturing people to death? Always bad.

So I'm afraid I don't feel much sympathy for those who commit heinous crimes. I just don't think we should kill them.





Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 13, 2007, 02:08:37 pm
I know you well enough to trust you, Ineedcrayons.  However, if you suddenly weren't here anymore because you were carted off to the pokey after having murdered someone, I would be shocked by the news, but I wouldn't really be surprised.  Not really.  And I wouldn't hate you.  I would probably even go so far as to send you letters in prison.   ;D  (Maybe even cartons of cigarettes.  I hear they work like money behind bars.)

Thanks, Gary! Good to know I'll still have at least one friend on the outside. I like Camel Lights, OK? :D

Well, I've never been a violent type, and I've already stated that I think killing is wrong -- but sure, it's not totally impossible for me to imagine wildly improbable circumstances under which I might wind up committing a murder. So I should clarify that I don't necessarily hate ALL murderers. I don't hate that woman who, suffering from post-partum depression, drowned her children -- on the contrary, I feel terribly sorry for her. My local paper just featured a story by a columnist whose childhood friend is in prison for murder -- the woman had become a crack addict and one night, on crack, shot someone she thought had stolen some jewelry from her. I don't hate that woman, and I can understand why her friend the columnist doesn't hate her.

But people who methodically torture children (or adults) to death, or who go out looking for victims to kill in sadistic ways out for the pleasure or compulsion of killing -- they're different. I don't want to execute them, but I don't love them. I certainly don't love Mr. Del Mar, and we're not even sure he done the job.

So I'll have to say that it is pretty much impossible for me to envision circumstances in which I'd be led to do that. I'm knocking on my wooden desk just so the gods don't mischievously set up events to teach me how wrong I am (they have a way of doing that when I make some bold declaration about myself). But really, while I most certainly do have a dark side, I can't imagine what triggers would turn me into a torturer or serial killer.

So if you hear that I have turned to torture, Gary, and your opinion of me changed, I'd perfectly understand.  :-\



Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Dagi on November 13, 2007, 03:09:29 pm
I think that many of those triggers happen early in life. With that I don't mean that every child that must grow up without love becomes a serial killer, nor that a "happy" childhood is a guarantee for not turning one, that's too easy. But in my humble opinion our will is less free than we want to believe. It is a fact, for example, that many of those who abuse children have been abused themselves in their childhood.
To think about for what reason a person becomes what he or she is can teach us a lot about ourselves. What makes a person capable of empathy? What makes a person put their own interest above the interests of others? What makes a person capable of controlling impulses? What would have become of me, had I grown up under different circumstances?

Dagi
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 13, 2007, 04:17:28 pm
Hi Dagi and Gary,

I see what you both are saying. I really do. And I also try to take into account what circumstances might have made people the way they are. I don't think those can be ignored. I realize that someone who had a terrible childhood is likely to have a harder time becoming a good and productive adult than someone whose childhood was happy. In addressing crime, for example, I think one of the most important things we can do is help people have better childhoods -- kinder, less poor, more enriching, happier.

I also absolutely agree that we should try to understand what makes people do bad things. Of course! Is it genetic? Environmental? Is it preventable? And no, I'm not saying those people are inherently more evil than others. I don't really believe in "evil" in that sense. I'm not saying they're a different species or anything. We're all shaped by a combination of our genes and our environments.

But. On the other hand, I also believe people ultimately have to be held responsible for their actions. If they're not, then what do actions even mean?

I'm not saying I "hate" Jeffrey Dahmer. Hate is a stronger word than what I feel toward Jeffrey Dahmer. I don't want to kill him or even necessarily see him suffer. But I don't love him. I love my children and my relatives and close friends. How could I put Jeffrey Dahmer in that same group?

Or maybe we're talking about something other than love. Maybe "respect as a human being" or something like that. But even then, how can I respect Nelson Mandella and Jeffrey Dahmer equally? If I did, doesn't that give Nelson Mandella's achievements kind of short shrift?

Circumstances do, indeed, shape people. But I also think humans have some degree of free will. I've known people who grew up in terrible circumstances and turned out fine. If they hadn't turned out fine, it would be understandable -- even predictable. But they did turn out fine, and they should get credit for it. People should be lauded for doing good. The flip side is that they should be held accountable for doing bad.

P.S. Gary -- that was some really good advice from that author! I don't know about love, but I do think that an author has to empathize with his/her characters, that is to understand what makes them act the way they do.

P.S.S. I'm taking a big test next week. There's one section in which you have to critique an argument that's provided. I'm really hoping the argument involves 1) the death penalty 2) abortion or 3) circumcision or maybe 4) whether all straight people are homophobic. What better practice is there than these threads?

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 13, 2007, 08:33:24 pm
Hi Dagi and Gary,

I see what you both are saying. I really do. And I also try to take into account what circumstances might have made people the way they are. I don't think those can be ignored. I realize that someone who had a terrible childhood is likely to have a harder time becoming a good and productive adult than someone whose childhood was happy. In addressing crime, for example, I think one of the most important things we can do is help people have better childhoods -- kinder, less poor, more enriching, happier.

I also absolutely agree that we should try to understand what makes people do bad things. Of course! Is it genetic? Environmental? Is it preventable? And no, I'm not saying those people are inherently more evil than others. I don't really believe in "evil" in that sense. I'm not saying they're a different species or anything. We're all shaped by a combination of our genes and our environments.

But. On the other hand, I also believe people ultimately have to be held responsible for their actions. If they're not, then what do actions even mean?

I'm not saying I "hate" Jeffrey Dahmer. Hate is a stronger word than what I feel toward Jeffrey Dahmer. I don't want to kill him or even necessarily see him suffer. But I don't love him. I love my children and my relatives and close friends. How could I put Jeffrey Dahmer in that same group?

Or maybe we're talking about something other than love. Maybe "respect as a human being" or something like that. But even then, how can I respect Nelson Mandella and Jeffrey Dahmer equally? If I did, doesn't that give Nelson Mandella's achievements kind of short shrift?

Circumstances do, indeed, shape people. But I also think humans have some degree of free will. I've known people who grew up in terrible circumstances and turned out fine. If they hadn't turned out fine, it would be understandable -- even predictable. But they did turn out fine, and they should get credit for it. People should be lauded for doing good. The flip side is that they should be held accountable for doing bad.

P.S. Gary -- that was some really good advice from that author! I don't know about love, but I do think that an author has to empathize with his/her characters, that is to understand what makes them act the way they do.

P.S.S. I'm taking a big test next week. There's one section in which you have to critique an argument that's provided. I'm really hoping the argument involves 1) the death penalty 2) abortion or 3) circumcision or maybe 4) whether all straight people are homophobic. What better practice is there than these threads?



Well whadda ya know.  I agree with crayon's last few posts  ;D

I don't "hate" those who commit heinous crimes.  They shouldn't flatter themselves, I've never hated anyone.  As Gary says, hating leads to the Darkside, but just because I don't hate them doesn't mean I must love them or whatever.

As crayon says, understanding where someone comes from is fine and dandy.  But at some point people stop being victims of their bad childhood and start making their own decisions and most of these perps know their actions are wrong because they inevitably try to hide evidence of their crimes.  You don't stop learning or growing just because you've left childhood.  Being poor and dispossessed and thus prone to crime I don't agree with.  They are all mutually exclusive.  Somewhere along the way, people make wrong decisions.   There are plenty of good role models around, and the fact that these heinous killers don't seek help, don't try to emulate good people when they know the consequences is just a sign of the fact that they're incorrigible or something is literally wrong in their heads and is never going to be fixed.

Thanks for the link crayons, I'll check it out.  I'm anxious to talk to my friend the debate coach to find out what she and her team finally used for a defense, but I only see her when they don't have a tournament which is like once every few months.  Probably Thanksgiving break will be the next time I see her.  Speaking of - she came from an abusive background and turned out just peachy - as far as society in general is concerned anyway.  :-\

As a quick aside to Gary - humans aren't prone to war, it's men who are prone to violence and war.

As for Mikaela and More's posts about executing children or people who committed crimes while they were children and retarded folk, I haven't yet made up my mind.

On the one hand, the latest research indicates that young people under a certain age, literally have brains that have not yet finished developing and their thinking does not go very far past action/consequence.  They cannot think far enough ahead of any action they take as to what might be the consequences.  That's why you see kids doing absolutely stupid things when you think they should know better.  On the other hand, kids develop consciences very young, so if they don't have it by the time they're a teen, they're not likely to get one.  And also, not all kids are like that.  I acted very much my age when I was a teen, but having grown up where I did, I also knew very well what the consequences of my actions would be in regards to boys and commiting crimes.

As for the mentally-challenged folk.  Again, my jury is still out.  On the one hand, they don't really know what they're doing - but unlike kids - they will never know what they're doing, so that will make them dangerous the rest of their lives.

Dunno. 
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 13, 2007, 09:30:02 pm
I'm still not making myself clear, then. I'm going to quote Gary again: "It's our understanding of the morals that is relative, not the morals themselves." That is, just because people disagree on what is right and wrong doesn't mean that whatever somebody thinks is OK for them. If that were the case, slavery and concentration camps would both have been just fine. No, the moral absolutes still exist, even if people interpret them incorrectly.

OK, I'm with you in the sense that in our society, we consider some things unacceptable.  But I can't say that they're moral absolutes simply because it's only we that think so.  We consider other people's morals wrong, but on what 'moral' high ground are we standing on to say so?  After all, if everyone has slavery, and you're just as likely to end up a slave as not, in a society that does not have Enlightenment thinking...it is perfectly 'moral' and perfectly normal.

Quote
Sorry, but I have absolutely no problem calling "murder is wrong except in self defense or to defend other innocents" a moral absolute.

OK, I'm just pointing out that if you make an exception and still call it an absolute, then that leaves the door open for everyone else to make an exception and call it an absolute.

Quote
I wasn't attempting to do that.

But if you're asking how the judicial system and government policy differs from the rest of life, the answer is they are public institutions and, in a democracy, are expected to attempt to treat all citizens equally, regardless of race, wealth and other demographic differences.

We live in a Republic more than a democracy.  We have high goals of everyone being equal and treated equally under the law, but we're still a ways from that actually being the case, so injustices abound.  But that doesn' t mean we should totally abandon the experiment.

Quote
Yep. That's what I said. That's why there's no need to kill anybody.

OK, I just hold a different opinion about our 'needs'.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: injest on November 13, 2007, 09:33:21 pm
Thanks so much Scott for the kind words.  I appreciate that.

I’ve been thinking of what you said about criminals having humanity, and how we should respect that.  I don’t think very many people do have much respect for the humanity of the criminal element.  Although I wouldn’t go so far as to question the motives of anyone here, I do think that in a general sense we do demonize people in an attempt to make us feel good about ourselves. 


Gary

there is another possibility, Garry...I think people have to make some sense of life in general...they look for a reason or a factor that caused this person to do what they did. What makes one person go home and fuss to his wife about the guy that cut him off in traffic and another stop their car and use a baseball bat on the other persons car...
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 13, 2007, 09:39:49 pm
The overwhelming majority of American women -- WOMEN -- supported the Iraq war in the beginning.  And I recall clearly seeing women -- WOMEN -- dancing in the streets in the middle east after 9/11 on television.

As I recall, those tapes of women dancing were later discovered to be tapes from years before about a totally different event.  And consider the source, in a society ruled by men and their rule enforced on their women by violence, I'm not really surprised to see women supporting their menfolk no matter their actions.  What choice do they have?

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Women may be somewhat less prone to violence than men, and that probably has something to do with male hormones, or lack there of, but women have their dark sides.  (Condolisa Rice has her fingerprints all over the Iraq war, BTW.)  This idea that women are sweetness and light is crap.  I've known a lot of hateful and vicious women.  Some of the most cruel, hateful, and most homophobic remarks made to me in my lifetime have come from women.  So please spare me this idea that men are the cause of the world's problems.   ::)

Somewhat less?  I'm sorry Gary you only need to read the statistics of the percentage of what gender is in prison and who in the world commits the most violence.  That isn't a sweetness and light bias - which I never claimed in the first place.  And note, you only had homophobic remarks from women.  How many have actually offered you violence?  Sticks and stones...

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If women were in charge of the world it might be a different place.  But it would still be a very screwed up place.

Probably, simply because men would still be in the world and we're still controlled by our evolutionary drives.

Quote
And just so I'm clear here, I'd like to say that just because the state has accused someone of something, and just because they've been convicted, I don't necessarily believe they are guilty of anything.  I am forever suspect of the state's motives and competence.  Which I think is the duty of every citizen of a free and democratic society.

Sure, it is our duty to question authority, but to keep questioning it in the face of hard facts is pointless.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 13, 2007, 11:31:28 pm
Let me put it this way, if one of your children grew up to be a murderer, would you stop loving that child?

No. But my child is someone I already loved. A stranger who becomes a murderer is different -- I didn't love the stranger in the first place.

I think I have a problem with this "love" thing. I don't love strangers. Heck, I don't even love Nelson Mandella! What I feel toward Nelson Mandella is more like, say, admiration. So OK. But why would I admire a murderer?

If you're saying I should respect the murderer's basic humanity to the extent of not wanting him executed or tortured, then fine, I'm with you there, it's what I've been saying along. But to my mind there's a vast difference between not wanting someone executed and loving them.

Also, I think I disagree with at least what I interpret as the implications of this:

Quote
I was saying that we should recognize that we are all in the same boat and that all of us are capable of doing horrible things if the circumstances are right.  I never suggested that what Dahmer and Mandella did with their lives was in any way equal.

I think all of us are capable of doing bad things, even horrible things, under certain circumstances. But I don't think we're all equally capable of committing equal degrees of horror. I don't think Nelson Mandella would turn into Jeffrey Dahmer under any circumstances -- unless you can stretch those circumstances to include mental illness so severe that Nelson Mandella is basically no longer Nelson Mandella. But that's pretty unlikely.

So let's say Nelson Mandella beats up some bikers at the Fourth of July fireworks. That's bad. But he's not going to kidnap and murder a bunch of young men. And to me, to say we're all capable of doing bad things loses much of its meaning if that potential badness isn't at least close to equal.

Nor can I agree with the idea that Jeffrey Dahmer and Nelson Mandella differ merely in the particular environmental circumstances they've encountered. Nelson Mandella has encountered some pretty harsh circumstances. But they're different people. I think one is hardwired to do more bad, the other to do more good. And therefore something in my attitude toward the two -- whether you call it love, respect, admiration, whatever -- is going to reflect that.

So isn't it enough to say I just don't hate Jeffrey Dahmer (and of course, like you, I'm just using Jeffrey Dahmer as a stand-in for all heinous criminals)? Why am I morally obliged to love him?

OK, I'm with you in the sense that in our society, we consider some things unacceptable.  But I can't say that they're moral absolutes simply because it's only we that think so.  We consider other people's morals wrong, but on what 'moral' high ground are we standing on to say so?

Whoa! Where did the first-person plural come from? I've been talking about what I consider moral imperatives. I don't necessarily agree with what our society thinks is. I'm not even sure our society thinks cohesively enough about this to say that anyone in it agrees about morals in anything but a vague way.

Everyone has his or her own moral imperatives -- that is, unless they're moral relativists, who would say that there are no moral imperatives, that what's right and wrong change with the particular circumstances. Actually, I'm a moral relativist myself about some issues (honoring they father and they mother, for example). But I think that all that stuff is up to every individual to decide for him/herself.

Quote
We live in a Republic more than a democracy.  We have high goals of everyone being equal and treated equally under the law, but we're still a ways from that actually being the case, so injustices abound.  But that doesn' t mean we should totally abandon the experiment.

Exactly. That's why if there are inequalities in the system, we don't just shrug and say that's inevitable. We try to eliminate them.

But here's something I agree with you about, Delalluvia:

Somewhat less?  I'm sorry Gary you only need to read the statistics of the percentage of what gender is in prison and who in the world commits the most violence.  That isn't a sweetness and light bias - which I never claimed in the first place.  And note, you only had homophobic remarks from women.  How many have actually offered you violence?

Women are waaayyyy less likely to commit violent acts. This is not to say women are morally superior to men in any (other) way. It's even possible that women support others committing violent acts -- war, capital punishment -- in equal proportions to men. They may have danced at 9/11. But when it comes to doing violence themselves, women are far less likely to do it.

(The one kind of violence women are more likely to commit is child abuse -- physical, not sexual. But one widely held explanation for this is that women tend to spend much more time around children than men do.)


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: injest on November 13, 2007, 11:42:39 pm
yes, we (people in general) do tend to take the easy path over the difficult one.

and for the record, I don't support the death penalty...but not for your reasons..only because we can not be sure that we are not executing an innocent person, and because rich, white men so rarely get executed...
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: injest on November 13, 2007, 11:44:21 pm
and to me executing ONE innocent person negates any possible good that would come from executing a hundred guillty ones..
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 14, 2007, 12:01:03 am

Exactly. That's why if there are inequalities in the system, we don't just shrug and say that's inevitable. We try to eliminate them.

Of course, I'm not saying that we just ignore them.  But inequalities in a system run by falliable humans are inevitable.  To strive for perfection is a worthwhile goal, but it's also a foolish one because there is no such thing as achievable perfection.  We should try to make something the very best that we can but we will never reach perfection.  Mistakes, as they say, are the cost of doing business.  You play you pay.

Quote
But here's something I agree with you about, Delalluvia:

Women are waaayyyy less likely to commit violent acts. This is not to say women are morally superior to men in any (other) way. It's even possible that women support others committing violent acts -- war, capital punishment -- in equal proportions to men. They may have danced at 9/11. But when it comes to doing violence themselves, women are far less likely to do it.

(The one kind of violence women are more likely to commit is child abuse -- physical, not sexual. But one widely held explanation for this is that women tend to spend much more time around children than men do.)

Agree.  That's also why the authorities instruct parents to tell their children that if they ever get lost or need help and a family member isn't available and the child has to turn to a stranger for help, they advise that the child seek out a female stranger.  The older the better.  These women are least likely to offer the child any harm and will likely stay with the child until she is assured that the child is safe.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on November 14, 2007, 12:08:00 am



        I dont like being generalized, and talked about like im not in the room....because I happen to be the soul
opposite person on this parade.  I am not talking about all the criminals...I am only mentioning it in regards to
less than 1/2 of 1% of the entire criminal population that have done murder and mayhem...The ones in spite
of all the talk to the contrary...are not rehabilitatable.  The evil ones...the compulsive one..many of whom dont
have the ability to control their own iimpulses.  Some of them choose to die rather than fight for the appeals,
and court cases...They cannot stand themselves, and know that their mind is so screwed up they dont have
the ability to stop...Its not for everyone, to have this happen to them....Many of these people have killed lots
of people, and when they get in prison continue to do the same...what can society, do to protect the other
members of their society, in or out of the system....??  You cant just say oh well never mind........
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 14, 2007, 12:24:47 am
and to me executing ONE innocent person negates any possible good that would come from executing a hundred guillty ones..

Except for the body count.

I used to think this, too, until one man could murder 30 children.  Or one man could fly a plane into a building and kill 1500 people, or one man angry at the government could blow up an entire building full of men, women and children... :(
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: injest on November 14, 2007, 12:30:54 am


        I dont like being generalized, and talked about like im not in the room....because I happen to be the soul
opposite person on this parade.  I am not talking about all the criminals...I am only mentioning it in regards to
less than 1/2 of 1% of the entire criminal population that have done murder and mayhem...The ones in spite
of all the talk to the contrary...are not rehabilitatable.  The evil ones...the compulsive one..many of whom dont
have the ability to control their own iimpulses.  Some of them choose to die rather than fight for the appeals,
and court cases...They cannot stand themselves, and know that their mind is so screwed up they dont have
the ability to stop...Its not for everyone, to have this happen to them....Many of these people have killed lots
of people, and when they get in prison continue to do the same...what can society, do to protect the other
members of their society, in or out of the system....??  You cant just say oh well never mind........

well, here is the thing...I do think there are some cases that are SOO clear cut...so beyond doubt that the person should be executed...our quintessential mass murderer, Jeffery Dahmer for example...but what galls me is these guys dont' GET executed...they get life in prison....

that gets to me. and is one of the reasons I object to the death penalty the way it is applied now

I could support it under some circumstances...but they would have to be very narrow and a lot more rare than now. I think it should be saved for extreme cases...(I think we are in agreement on that?)

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 14, 2007, 12:49:07 am

And I thought I made it clear that I thought men were more likely to commit acts of violence.  I only meant to point out that doesn't mean that women don't have dark impulses.  I'm sorry if I can across as a little too blunt in my post.  I was feeling a bit peevish.  I've been trying very hard to put my thoughts into words, and I've written quite a lot here in the last few days.  So to have someone show up, sift through all my posts and then came back at me and say simply that men are the ones who are warlike, as if that had anything to do with the main thrust of anything I had said, simply rubbed me the wrong way.  (And I know that you're not the one who did it, so I'm sorry if I misplaced my anger.)  And given the fact that I'm a man who has been talking about loving your neighbor, and not judging people, and how the death penalty is wrong...  I was put on the defensive.

Sorry if my words came across as sharp.

Gary     

Yes, you did come across as pretty defensive.  Sorry, but I don't like women to be generalized especially when you are going on about the problems in this world and include women in sharing the blame for it when the majority of the blame for much of the violence in this world is clearly on the male of the species.  Sorry if you took this personally, but so did I.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: injest on November 14, 2007, 12:51:41 am
ya'll both were generalizing...I of course NEVER do....

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


*Jess runs for the hills*
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 14, 2007, 01:00:04 am
Hey, when I spoke of my own personal views about love being the basis for morality, that was simply me sharing with you my view of the world.  I wasn't trying to proselytize.  And I've already admitted that I fall short of my own goals, so I certainly don't want to judge you for not being able to love the whole of humanity. 

... Sorry if my words came across as sharp.

OK, Gary, thanks. It did sound like you might be getting a little upset, so I appreciate your explaining.

I tend to argue these things ... well, not really just for the sake of arguing, but certainly partly for the enjoyment of debating an interesting issue. I really like pulling things apart this way and examining how our beliefs might change -- or not -- once we are looking at the individual pieces. It's kind of a fun exercise, for me, in analysis and logic and philosophical exchange. So although I'm a strong opponent of the death penalty I don't usually get too emotional in these discussions -- unless of course they turn personal.

I know some people feel differently. They get more emotional, more passionate. And sometimes, that contrast can lead to hard feelings. So I'm glad you cleared that up.

But honestly, I didn't think you were proselytizing, nor did I feel defensive about not feeling the same way you do. I just figured you were explaining your vision of morality and I was explaining mine. So for example, whereas you feel we should at least try to love all humans, even the ones who do wrong, I feel we're under no obligation to love them, just to treat them fairly and humanely (which entails, of course, not killing them).

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Lynne on November 14, 2007, 03:02:45 am
Wow - we have really generated a lot of thoughtful discussion here.  Thanks so much for everyone sharing their candid opinions.  There's so much here I want to respond to, but I don't really know where to start, especially without singling out opposing viewpoints and being contentious.

Two thoughts are at the foremost of my mind, though.

First, why do we think that children are inherently safer in the hands of older women?  I think that's a pretty big assumption and doubt we really can find reliable and recent data to back it up.  I've read somewhere that more and more violent crimes are committed by women.  I think it's much more likely that women are only in recent times being tried and found guilty of their crimes instead of getting softer treatment from the so-called justice system....I have no data to support this, but it's a gut feeling  - maybe I'll go see if I can find some data.

Secondly, I really take issue with Del's point about striving for a more ideal society being foolish:

Of course, I'm not saying that we just ignore them.  But inequalities in a system run by falliable humans are inevitable.  To strive for perfection is a worthwhile goal, but it's also a foolish one because there is no such thing as achievable perfection.  We should try to make something the very best that we can but we will never reach perfection.  Mistakes, as they say, are the cost of doing business.  You play you pay.

Agree.  That's also why the authorities instruct parents to tell their children that if they ever get lost or need help and a family member isn't available and the child has to turn to a stranger for help, they advise that the child seek out a female stranger.  The older the better.  These women are least likely to offer the child any harm and will likely stay with the child until she is assured that the child is safe.

With respect to the quote I highlighted, 'Damn, that's harsh.'  That's not the kind of world I want to live in - no way, no how.  I'll reiterate - in my view of the world, I'd rather a guilty person go free than one innocent person be put to death.  The end.  I agree that we all have our own individual concepts of what we consider morality; it is the consensus we reach from these concepts that form what passes for law in our society and has been since the beginning of civilization.  It is a constantly evolving process and it is our RESPONSIBILITY (imo) as members of the human race to constantly question, requestion, and adjust -- or what's the point?!

Check out this website for The Innocence Project:  http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/Browse-Profiles.php

Two hundred and eight people exonerated to date.  Each and every one of these people have a story and that story is no more nor less than the story that each victim of crime has.  And I'm sure that's only the tip of the iceburg - cases with high enough profiles and where there was enough scientific evidence still available to have cases reopened.  I'd wager thousands upon thousands are still imprisoned wrongly.  Penalties (death and otherwise) are not applied fairly across racial, gender, or socio-economic lines.  There's plenty of evidence out there to support that.

AS far as I can tell there is no evidence that the death penalty deters crime.  There's evidence in California that the 'three-strikes' law actually increases homicides because when a criminal has two strikes, he or she does not want to leave witnesses to incriminate him or her for the third.

I'm probably repeating myself (I do that!  ::)) but I'd rather my tax money go to early intervention programs to keep people from lives of crime in the first place - food, shelter, medical care - especially mental health care, education, jobs.  For the small percentage of sociopaths who won't be deterred from violence, I'm OK with imprisoning them for life.  I'm not willing to give up this ideal just because 'perfection' is not practical - I'll gladly settle for a 95% success rate.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on November 14, 2007, 05:03:27 am
well, here is the thing...I do think there are some cases that are SOO clear cut...so beyond doubt that the person should be executed...our quintessential mass murderer, Jeffery Dahmer for example...but what galls me is these guys dont' GET executed...they get life in prison....

that gets to me. and is one of the reasons I object to the death penalty the way it is applied now

I could support it under some circumstances...but they would have to be very narrow and a lot more rare than now. I think it should be saved for extreme cases...(I think we are in agreement on that?)
         I apologize to Delalluvia, and any other person that says they believe we need the death penalty for certain types of
criminals..  I didnt mean to select myself alone as a student of this side of the arguement.


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: injest on November 14, 2007, 06:41:23 am
         I apologize to Delalluvia, and any other person that says they believe we need the death penalty for certain types of
criminals..  I didnt mean to select myself alone as a student of this side of the arguement.




that's ok!! It is hard to keep track after a while....we kinda wander off the beaten track in conversations like this. Please don't feel alone...there are always people on both sides of the argument (otherwise this poll would be a lot shorter) and I know for me I get off topic and am NOT good at being clear about where I stand...
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Dagi on November 14, 2007, 09:02:07 am
Thank you for this post, Gary.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: souxi on November 14, 2007, 09:27:27 am


        I dont like being generalized, and talked about like im not in the room....because I happen to be the soul
opposite person on this parade.  I am not talking about all the criminals...I am only mentioning it in regards to
less than 1/2 of 1% of the entire criminal population that have done murder and mayhem...The ones in spite
of all the talk to the contrary...are not rehabilitatable.  The evil ones...the compulsive one..many of whom dont
have the ability to control their own iimpulses.  Some of them choose to die rather than fight for the appeals,
and court cases...They cannot stand themselves, and know that their mind is so screwed up they dont have
the ability to stop...Its not for everyone, to have this happen to them....Many of these people have killed lots
of people, and when they get in prison continue to do the same...what can society, do to protect the other
members of their society, in or out of the system....??  You cant just say oh well never mind........

You are quite right. There are, some people in this world, who simply cannot be rehabilitated. I don,t know if any of you have heard of Fred and Rosemary West, Myra Hindley and Ian Brady, Peter Sutcliffe(the Yorkshire Ripper) Robert Maudsley, Ian Huntley, Roy Whiting, Jeremy Bamber....there are probably many many more. NONE of these monsters could EVER be rehabilitated. In fact, with the exception of 6 I think, the others are dead. Now just in case you havn,t heard of Myra Hindley and Ian Brady, google them, and read about what they did then tell me, that if we had still had the death penalty in the UK, they wouldn,t have deserved it. I,d have pulled the lever myself. I,ll tell you all something else too. When I heard Myra Hindely had died, I cheered. I hope she rots in hell for the evil she commited. Does that make me a bad person? Well if it does, then so be it. There are just some crimes in this world that are so henious, that the death penalty is the only option. Why the hell should scum like that be given a clean bed to sleep in every day, when their victim gets a cold grave? I don,t beleive in the death penaly for ALL crimes, for but ones as henious as the ones I have mentioned, in my opinion, they would have deserved it.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: souxi on November 14, 2007, 09:32:13 am
Here you go...read this. If this doesn,t bring tears to your eyes nothing will.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors_Murderers

Do you know something else? To her dying day, that evil lying bitch swore she didn,t know where Keith Bennets body was buried, and Ian Brady refuses to tell the police. Oh sure he,s been back to the moors to "help" the police look for him...he says he can,t remember. Crap. He just wants to torment the poor boys mother. She,ll probably go to her grave never knowing where her son is buried. He,s on Saddleworth Moor somewhere, and that bastard Brady knows where. I can only hope that when he dies, it,s in agony. Bastard. >:( >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: moremojo on November 14, 2007, 11:02:35 am
Yes, you did come across as pretty defensive.  Sorry, but I don't like women to be generalized especially when you are going on about the problems in this world and include women in sharing the blame for it when the majority of the blame for much of the violence in this world is clearly on the male of the species.  Sorry if you took this personally, but so did I.
Sorry, but women don't get off the hook on any of these issues and problems. Who gives birth to all the men? And who raises them?  Who marries the men, often enabling them or looking the other way, or even actively supporting them? Who bears these men's children? Women are slightly more than half the species, and they fully participate in the human story, for both good and ill.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 14, 2007, 11:15:23 am
First, why do we think that children are inherently safer in the hands of older women?  I think that's a pretty big assumption and doubt we really can find reliable and recent data to back it up.  I've read somewhere that more and more violent crimes are committed by women.  I think it's much more likely that women are only in recent times being tried and found guilty of their crimes instead of getting softer treatment from the so-called justice system....I have no data to support this, but it's a gut feeling  - maybe I'll go see if I can find some data.

Experts routinely advise parents to instruct their young children that if they ever, say, get lost in a shopping mall, they should find a woman and ask her for help. Preferably a mother. Even male security guards aren't necessarily safe -- security guards sometimes have criminal records. Women are much, much less likely to commit violence on an unknown child (I said in an earlier post that physical abuse of children is the one kind of violence for which women's rates are higher than men's, but this mainly involves their own children, and again most likely because they spend more time with them).

Has it ever happened? Of course. But statistically, it's much rarer. Yes, I read the horrible details about Myra Hindley's crimes. Like most women convicted of killing a stranger, she was the partner of a man (very few women murder strangers on their own). And even so, she is an anomaly. When you think about your own experiences hearing news stories about abductions and murders, how often are they committed by women, as opposed to men?*

While in college I studied the German-American Christian theologian Paul Tillich. ... In his seminal work Systematic Theology Tillich points out that love is something more than mere emotion.  In a philosophical sense it is far more important than that, and he defined it basically as the drive toward the reunion of the separated.  ... Existential anxiety is really the key to understanding why people do awful things to one another.

Thank you, Gary, for explaining this. Tillich sounds interesting, and I may go to the link you posted and read more. We all have different philosophies and theologies that to us have the ring of truth. From what you've said, I don't think Tillich's views would necessarily mesh with mine. Maybe our backgrounds partly influence this process. You were raised a fundamentalist Baptist; I was raised in a very secular household (even my grandparents -- on  either side -- were not churchgoers). However you or I may have come to question the teachings of our childhood, we're probably seeking different things.

One thing I want to clarify -- and this may not contradict anything you said, but just for the record. To me, the absence of love is not hate. I don't love heinous killers, or necessarily hate them. Still, it's hard to read the account of Myra Hindley's crimes and not have some kind a strong emotional reaction. I guess I'd characterize it more as horror and despair.

Do I think Myra Hindley is evil, in the sense of being fundamentally different from all other humans? No. On the other hand, do I think that if you took any random person off the street and put them in her circumstances, that pretty soon that random person would be helping her partner abduct, rape and murder children? No, I don't. If I did think that, I'd be even more despairing about humanity than I already am.

Quote
According to the New Testament, Jesus told us to love our neighbor, he told us to love our enemies, and he told us to turn the other cheek.  These are the things a person of faith would do. And that’s because to have faith is to be at one with the world, to accept the world, and everything in it.

Well, I probably don't have faith. I tend to be more of an empiricist. So I really don't accept the world and everything in it -- the heinous murders, the tsunamis and hurricanes that kill lots of innocent people. The best I can do is to try to focus on the good things that happen and that people do.

* Update: In the part of my response regarding women and violence, please note that I'm not saying this to attack men or proclaim women superior or anything like that. Those just happens to be the facts. Maybe the difference will disappear as our culture changes -- that is, if the violence differential is cultural rather than biological (I believe it exists cross-culturally, but I don't think anybody can say exactly what causes it).

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: souxi on November 14, 2007, 01:27:01 pm
Sorry to disagree with you hun, but Myra Hindely, WAS evil. You only have to look the mug shot taken of her when she was arrested to see that. She had the blackest most evil eyes I,ve ever seen on a person, Ian Brady too. What they did to those children, especially what they put poor 10 year old Leslie Anne Downey through was EVIL. Anyone who can torture an innocent defencless child, whilst sexually abusing them and taking photos, and recording her pleas to be allowed to go home to her mummy, has got to be evil. Some people are just born evil and them two WERE. I,ve said it before and I,ll say it again. If hanging had still been legal in the UK then, I,d have pulled the lever myself, with pleasure. She,s down "there" now, stoking her fire with her pitchfork which is exactly where the evil bitch belongs. Long my she rot/burn in hell, and when the other half of the scum duo dies, I hope he rots/burns in hell with her. In cases like that, where there is NO doubt about who did what, as there wasn,t with them two, the death penalty is the only option, imo. Bastards the pair of them. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: moremojo on November 14, 2007, 01:30:25 pm
I would be extremely wary of judging a person's moral character on the basis of their eyes, or any other external, physical trait. History is replete with people being demonized and victimized precisely on the basis of such dubious assumptions.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: souxi on November 14, 2007, 02:18:51 pm
I would be extremely wary of judging a person's moral character on the basis of their eyes, or any other external, physical trait. History is replete with people being demonized and victimized precisely on the basis of such dubious assumptions.

You can tell an awful lot about a person (although I hesitate to label hindley and brady as people) by their eyes. Look at this and tell me they havn,t got evil black eyes.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: loneleeb3 on November 14, 2007, 02:26:33 pm
You can tell an awful lot about a person (although I hesitate to label hindley and brady as people) by their eyes. Look at this and tell me they havn,t got evil black eyes.

Scary!! Seriously that bottom picture, she creeps me out.
Manson had some crazy eyes. So Did that Richard Ramierez.
have you ever seen Aileen Wurnoes(SP?) in an interview?
The showed one about the same time the movie Monster (based onher) came out.
She had some crazy eyes too.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: souxi on November 14, 2007, 02:35:23 pm
Scary!! Seriously that bottom picture, she creeps me out.
Manson had some crazy eyes. So Did that Richard Ramierez.
have you ever seen Aileen Wurnoes(SP?) in an interview?
The showed one about the same time the movie Monster (based onher) came out.
She had some crazy eyes too.

Yep Charles Manson had really mad eyes. OJ Simpson also had evil black eyes, and I still say he killed his wife. Another one who had mad black eyes, (and I,m NOT saying that in a racist way because he,s black, I,m not racist) is someone called Winston Silcott. Don,t know if you,ve ever heard of him. He was convicted years ago of Murdering an unarmed policeman, PC Keith Blakelock. He took a machette to his head. He was split from ear to ear. Poor sod didn,t stand a chance. Know what?? He,s out of  prison now AND he sued the police for compensation for being imprisoned for a crime he says he didnt, commit!!! Unbelievable!!! He DID murder that copper, I don,t care what the lying bastard says, he killed him. He,s got the evil eyes to prove it. Read about him and tell me he didn,t deserve to be hung by his scrawny neck. When he got out of prison his laughing face was all over the press. Made me sick. God knows what it did to his wife and kids.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 14, 2007, 02:44:15 pm
I'm certainly with Scott here -- I wouldn't rely on the eye test to determine a person's guilt. I was going to look around for pictures of people with similar eyes who demonstrably AREN'T evil, and I'm pretty sure that with sufficient time I could find some. But it's more efficient to repeat Scott's point. Throughout history, people have been judged on the basis of their appearance -- such as skin color, for example. It's a dangerous road, even if you think it applies in this case.

(BTW, souxi, I know you're not being racist, but can't blue eyes look evil?)

Whether this woman is evil or not, I think, is partly a matter of semantics and partly a matter of theology. What she did was certainly really, really bad. So semantically, I guess you could call her actions evil. But that's her actions.

So is she herself, as a person, evil? That's where theology comes in. I don't really believe in "evil" in that sense. Nor do I believe in hell.

As an agnostic, I'm just stuck with the mystery of why people do such horrible things, and whether they'll face "justice" in the afterlife. I tend to think they won't, which seems unfair, but it's my observation of how the universe works. Just like perfectly nice people sometimes get to watch their children carried off by a tsunami. That's not "just," either.

Why is there good and evil and tragedy and all that? Many religions offer comforting answers, but I'm not a follower of any of them. So I really have no idea.

Wow, this thread is getting heavy!

Edgar Allen Poe had a very unusual appearance.  And he even wrote creepy stories.  Does that mean he was a serial killer?  Who knew?   ???

How do you think he got the idea for the telltale heart??

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: loneleeb3 on November 14, 2007, 02:45:21 pm
Edgar Allen Poe had a very unusual appearance.  And he even wrote creepy stories.  Does that mean he was a serial killer?  Who knew?   ???

Gary

P.S. I've visited Poe's grave, and the house in which he lived in Baltimore a few years ago.   ;D
Well of course not! LOL
Look at Marty Feldman! Talk about your crazy eyes!
I though Poe was buried in Charleston SC?
Who am i thinking of????  ???
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Shakesthecoffecan on November 14, 2007, 02:49:53 pm
He's in Baltimore,

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=822

but who is buried in Charleston I wonder?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: loneleeb3 on November 14, 2007, 02:53:31 pm
He's in Baltimore,

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=822

but who is buried in Charleston I wonder?
Lots of people I reckon!  :laugh:
I'll have to find out who I'm thinkin of.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: souxi on November 14, 2007, 02:59:17 pm
Edgar Allen Poe had a very unusual appearance.  And he even wrote creepy stories.  Does that mean he was a serial killer?  Who knew?   ???

Gary

P.S. I've visited Poe's grave, and the house in which he lived in Baltimore a few years ago.   ;D

Of course it doesn,t Gary lol. I have watched Edgar Allen Poe movies and enoyed them very much. I also liked Vincent Price and boy was HE creepy...that voice!!! (think of Thriller).
IMHO Myra Hindely was EVIL. She was obviously born evil and she went to her grave evil. Yes blue eyes can look evil as well, it,s just unfortunate that the ones I have mentioned all happened to have brown eyes, or very very dark eyes. Hindley and Brady had black eyes...eyes of the devil. They probably had 666 tatooed on their foreheads. They should have been hung and left there for the crows to peck.  >:( >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: souxi on November 14, 2007, 03:07:59 pm
Can you imagine what Leslie Anne Downeys mother had to go through, listening to the tape recording of her 10 year old daughters cries and pleas for mercy? I,d have gone insane.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/276809.stm
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on November 14, 2007, 03:15:55 pm
        I  dont have any following of the idea that you could tell a persons guilt or innocence, judgeing by
their eyes.  Would that were so..It would make finding and imprisoning criminals much easier.
        But ido believe that we are fooling ourselves if we dont try and rid ourself of these kinds of behaviorist.
They are a danger and a blight on society.  They endanger the fabric of society.  They can spread their
brand of vile behavior.  I dont hate them, but I certainly have no love or compassion for them either.  I know
that they should be gotten rid of if the evidence is good enough...As in that crime that Sioux was mentioning
they had a tape to prove their guilt...No doubt, no mistakes.  Because the public, and people in general
tend to have very short memories..Time tends to soften the feel of the depth of their crimes.  People get
to know them,,,, as nice intelligent rehabilitated people...so lets let them free... 
         The people they killed or tortured need to be let free first..When they are allowed to have freedom.
Then maybe, just  maybe, you can let the perpetrators free.  
          But I digress..I dont think once you kill someone in anger or in hate, you should ever be allowed from
prison again...period.
          The next point I want to make is this.  I dont agree at all with the term I have heard mentioned over
and over here...We are not all capable of this kind of behavior..If that was true, I would be afraid to have any
member of my family or friends leave their home.  There are so many chances for those kinds of things to happen
from the smallest segment of the population.  What kind of terror would be the case, if everyone was capable of
these behaviors.  I dont agree.  At all, that that is true.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: MaineWriter on November 14, 2007, 03:17:50 pm
I just read an interesting statistic that October, 2007 was the first month in three years where no one was executed in the US.

Some say we are in the middle of an informal ban on the death penalty, pending a ruling by the Supreme Court on lethal injection.

For more:

http://www.slate.com/id/2176196/
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: injest on November 14, 2007, 03:20:04 pm
nor do I Janice....The people that say that are comparing a person yelling at someone cutting them off in traffic to someone that murders someone for $20...it is an invalid comparison to me.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Dagi on November 14, 2007, 03:26:12 pm
I just read an interesting statistic that October, 2007 was the first month in three years where no one was executed in the US.

Some say we are in the middle of an informal ban on the death penalty, pending a ruling by the Supreme Court on lethal injection.

For more:

http://www.slate.com/id/2176196/

That´s good news.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Mikaela on November 14, 2007, 06:43:53 pm
I bet most people on death row in countries with capital punishment - even counting only the ones on death row that actually committed the crimes they've been sentenced for, and did so while adult and of sound mind -  aren't in the league of Hindley, Dahmer, Bundy and their ilk - luckily there aren't many such around.

I can't really relate to the "evil" concept that is being forwarded here. To me as an atheist I realize  the "evil" term has no such clearcut meaning except as a word that various religions have chosen to use on certain people, societies, religions, acts, behaviour and so forth up through the ages. Including homosexuality, as far as I know. I certainly don't think anyone can be deemed evil or not by looking at their eyes. If it were that simple, for one thing, all those poor women who offered to help Ted Bundy into his car would probably have run away screaming from him instead....


Be that as it may, in meting out capital punishment to anyone, be it Ted Bundy or some drug addict turned robber and murderer, or any other person - society dehumanizes itself. That's the long and short of it, to me. It renounces basic human rights. That's the last tragic impact of people such as the above mentioned - that their heinous crimes make it easier for society and legal systems to turn to "an eye for an eye" as justice, turn to a system of revenge and retribution and consider it justified; - thereby losing some of our precious shared humanity in the process.... in addition to also making killers of the ones who are to administer the punishment.

I don't see why those in favour of the death penalty are so dead set on its continuation.  What harm to society is there in keeping even sadistical serial killers firmly behind lock and key - treating them humanely but certainly never letting them out into society again? When the very fact that they, even *they*, are treated humanly in prison serves to remind us all that society as a whole will and should demonstrably *not* sink towards their level in *any* way, shape or form: What they did in taking lives (not to mention the how and why and how often of it) was unconscionable and outside the realm of acceptable human behaviour, and the punishment in pointed contrast should be humane, though certainly not naive.  "An eye for an eye makes the world blind".
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Mikaela on November 14, 2007, 07:03:09 pm
I thought this deserved its own post...

 I read "The Lord of the Rings" for the first time at the age of 14 (incidentally in the same year, and reading the same edition, as one Peter Jackson). It's been one of my absolute favourite books since, and I've re-read it many times. Now Tolkien was a devout Catholic and that shines through in many ways in the worldview, morality and ethical concepts in "Rings". Though I don't see eye to eye with the old Professor concerning his religion, I find that he nevertheless came close to describing my stance on the death penalty in this little passage from the "Fellowship of the Ring. This to me expresses a humane approach, and humility when it comes to taking it upon ourselves to "deal out death in judgment".  (Frodo and Gandalf are discussing the vile and treacherous Gollum - I suppose most here have read the book or seen the films or both).

Quote

"What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature, when he had a chance!”

“Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity.”

“I am sorry,” said Frodo. “But I am frightened; and I do not feel any pity for Gollum.”

“You have not seen him,” Gandalf broke in.

“No, and I don’t want to,” said Frodo. I can’t understand you. Do you mean to say that you, and the Elves, have let him live on after all those horrible deeds? Now at any rate he is as bad as an Orc, and just an enemy. He deserves death.”

“Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many - yours not least.

J. R. R. Tolkien - The Fellowship of the Ring, Book 1, Chapter 2
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Dagi on November 14, 2007, 07:48:13 pm

I don't see why those in favour of the death penalty are so dead set on its continuation.  What harm to society is there in keeping even sadistical serial killers firmly behind lock and key - treating them humanely but certainly never letting them out into society again? When the very fact that they, even *they*, are treated humanly in prison serves to remind us all that society as a whole will and should demonstrably *not* sink towards their level in *any* way, shape or form: What they did in taking lives (not to mention the how and why and how often of it) was unconscionable and outside the realm of acceptable human behaviour, and the punishment in pointed contrast should be humane, though certainly not naive.  "An eye for an eye makes the world blind".

Wonderful post, Mikaela!

As for the eye thing: I can only shake my head in disbelief about that. You all are kidding, aren´t you? Please tell me yo are not speaking seriously.

Dagi
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 14, 2007, 08:55:45 pm
Sorry, but women don't get off the hook on any of these issues and problems. Who gives birth to all the men? And who raises them?  Who marries the men, often enabling them or looking the other way, or even actively supporting them? Who bears these men's children? Women are slightly more than half the species, and they fully participate in the human story, for both good and ill.

Women participate in the world, but who makes policy?  Who is actively in charge of our governments?  Our military machines?  Our 'captains' of industry?

For most women who have children - the majority are married.  Yes, they raise children, but they cannot keep their husbands from influencing their sons.  As soon as sons realize their gender makes a difference, they do not look to their mothers for role models, they look to their fathers.  A friend was living with her no-account boyfriend, father of her child, and was raising her two nephews because her sister got put in prison on a drug bust.  She was working full time, going to school and trying to raise these 3 little boys whle her boyfriend lay around the apartment doing nothing.  My encouragement to her to dump him was met with the very matter-of-fact "I need a baby-sitter" argument.  But she did say she was trying to be a good role model for the boys.  I responded,

"Yes, you are.  You are showing your boys that women do all the work and men get to lie around and play all day."

Another friend of mine is very fundamentalist and his wife stays at home with their two kids while he works all day...but of course, that makes him the leader, the independent one, the one who makes the money, the head of the household and as he put it the 'shepherd' of his family as per the Bible.  Regardless of what the mother does, the son is going to look to his father as a role model, not his mother. 
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 14, 2007, 09:01:47 pm
I think that it was abundantly clear that my comments were not meant to be offensive toward women.  So if you wanted to make your point, you could have done so without singling me out, and responding to me directly with your curt little aside.

Gary

Apparently not.  Now, I thought my aside was just a quickie 'oh and I'm sure you didn't mean humans" because I thought it was well-documented and common knowledge that men are much more violent than women, especially for someone as well read as yourself.  I simply thought you would acknowledge the fact of the matter and move on.  I singled you out simply because you said it.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 14, 2007, 09:07:03 pm
In the Pulitzer Prize winning book The Pilgrim at Tinker Creek, Annie Dillard writes of her observations of nature with the knowledge of a trained naturalist and with the passion of someone with deeply reflected faith.  You might expect her to write of nature in glowing terms, but she doesn’t always.  For instance, she might go on for pages describing in chilling detail how spiders sometimes eat their young, or how children will suffer while dying of cancer.  Dillard does not shy away from the darker realities of life.  She writes, “The universe that suckled us is a monster that does not care if we live or die – does not care if it itself grinds to a halt.  It is fixed and blind, a robot programed to kill.  We are free and seeing; we can only try to outwit it at every turn to save our skins.”

But this does not deter her faith, and this is made evident when she later writes, “I am a frayed and nibbled survivor in a fallen world, and I am getting along.  I am aging and eaten and have done my share of eating too.  I am not washed and beautiful, in control of a shining world in which everything fits, but instead am wandering awed about on a splintered wreck I’ve come to care for, whose gnawed trees breathe a delicate air, whose bloodied and scarred creatures are my dearest companions, and whose beauty beats and shines not in its imperfections but overwhelmingly in spite of them, under the wind-rent clouds upstream and down.  Simone Weil says simply, ‘Let us love the country of here below.  It is real; it offers resistence to love.’”

This is the world that’s been given to us, and, just like Dillard, I am in awe.  It may shock me at times.  I may not understand why it has to be so harsh.  I may tremble at the thoughts of people who would do us harm.  But whatever imagined perfection I have in my head it would be a pale and shallow replacement for this real place that dares to resist our love.

Gary

Annie Dillard was required reading in my college English class.  I gave out "Pilgrim at Tinkers Creek" to friends as gifts.  I urged my ex-boyfriend to read the chapter on "Fecundity", begged him to just read this one chapter - and he was hooked.  He kept my book.  I had to buy another.  He was a budding atheist and thought it very strange that despite Dillard's very rational, in-your-face view of the world, that she managed to hang onto her faith.

As the famous scientist says, "You may call the earth a mother, but she's not a doting one."
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 14, 2007, 09:08:58 pm

As for the you-can-know-a-killer-by-their-eyes argument.

My brother's little girl is maybe 3 years old and she has the eyes of a serial killer.  Just evil eyes.

I'll let you know how that turns out.  ;D
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 14, 2007, 09:30:13 pm
Secondly, I really take issue with Del's point about striving for a more ideal society being foolish:

With respect to the quote I highlighted, 'Damn, that's harsh.'  That's not the kind of world I want to live in - no way, no how.  I'll reiterate - in my view of the world, I'd rather a guilty person go free than one innocent person be put to death.  The end.  I agree that we all have our own individual concepts of what we consider morality; it is the consensus we reach from these concepts that form what passes for law in our society and has been since the beginning of civilization.  It is a constantly evolving process and it is our RESPONSIBILITY (imo) as members of the human race to constantly question, requestion, and adjust -- or what's the point?!

Check out this website for The Innocence Project:  http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/Browse-Profiles.php

Two hundred and eight people exonerated to date.  Each and every one of these people have a story and that story is no more nor less than the story that each victim of crime has.  And I'm sure that's only the tip of the iceburg - cases with high enough profiles and where there was enough scientific evidence still available to have cases reopened.  I'd wager thousands upon thousands are still imprisoned wrongly.  Penalties (death and otherwise) are not applied fairly across racial, gender, or socio-economic lines.  There's plenty of evidence out there to support that.

AS far as I can tell there is no evidence that the death penalty deters crime.  There's evidence in California that the 'three-strikes' law actually increases homicides because when a criminal has two strikes, he or she does not want to leave witnesses to incriminate him or her for the third.

I'm probably repeating myself (I do that!  ::)) but I'd rather my tax money go to early intervention programs to keep people from lives of crime in the first place - food, shelter, medical care - especially mental health care, education, jobs.  For the small percentage of sociopaths who won't be deterred from violence, I'm OK with imprisoning them for life.  I'm not willing to give up this ideal just because 'perfection' is not practical - I'll gladly settle for a 95% success rate.

Hi Lynne, I'm sorry you took that harsh, I guess it only read that way.  Another way to say that is "you don't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs".  Meaning, there are going to be things that happen in the course of any activity that are good and bad.  You cannot escape it.

I certainly support programs such as "The Innocent Project".  But remember, there are very few people on death row compared to the multitudes that are just imprisoned for life.  We don't give drug dealers and car thieves the death penalty. 

Everyone needs to remember we're talking about heinous crimes and very few juries give the death penalty on circumstantial evidence cases.  They usually give life in prison sentences simply because they do give the benefit of the doubt to the person convicted.

But like Dahlmer, sometimes there truly is a smoking gun.  Blood splatter evidence, blow back evidence, admission by the perps of things like "We were alone in the house and she killed herself" when the bullet is in the back of the victim's head kind of thing.  Sometimes, it's just obvious.

As for perfection...well, striving for that simply gets you burned out people because you are reaching for something that doesn't exist.  Look at your own job - don't know about you, but my bosses expect perfection because a mistake can be extremely costly, but at the same time, they don't like to spend money to hire more people and prefer that the people they do have sacrifice their personal lives so they can work 7 days a week.

So, perfection is expected at my place of employment.  Do we reach it?  Fuck no.  Do I try?  Nope.  I simply try my best.  If that gets perfection, great, if it doesn't?  Oh well, I tried my best and that's the most you can expect.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 14, 2007, 09:33:10 pm
I don't agree with this statement at all.  I have a 12 year old son, a loving, caring thoughtful boy.  His dad is a wonderful man and my son looks up to him and respects him, but he looks up to me too and has equal respect for me. 

We are both  role models for all three of our children; our son and our two daughters.

Susie  :)



Let me know how it goes when your boy reaches teenage status.   ;)

A friend of mine was raising her boy alone.  She was in great shape, so she played ball with him, was involved in sports with him, could play one-on-one basketball with him, worked hard, brought him to Bring Your Kid to Work day, so he could see all her responsibilities.  He was helpful around the house, considerate, they were a team...

Then he hit puberty and all that went out the window.  She could no longer deal with him and had to send him to live with his father.  To say it broke her heart is an understatement.  She couldn't understand where she went wrong.

All kids are different.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 14, 2007, 09:51:20 pm
They certainly are .. which is why we shouldn't tar them all with the same brush! 

I have an older daughter already so I know all about teenage tantrums and raging hormones ... and I'll be there to pull him back when he crosses the line and pick him up when he falls flat on his face.

I can see that you're very cynical about men in general Dellaluvia, but there are plenty of gooduns out there, they're not all devils in disguise.

Susie  :)

Don't get me wrong.  I don't demonize men.  I know plenty of good men.  They are friends of mine, would give you the shirt off their backs, help you move, visit you in the hospital, let you stay with them if you're down and out, bring you soup when you are sick, are nice guys - yet they also believe if a woman gets fat - that's a reason to divorce her.  That women aren't capable of making important decisions.  That if you go out with them as friends, they are free to make a pass at you and get pissed off if you won't sleep with them.

One guy I know was my hero when an ex-boyfriend completely destroyed me when he dumped me.  He was there to pick me up, shore up my ego, just - oh, he was wonderful and I have never forgotten that and still remember him kindly on his birthday and Xmas for that.

He loves feminist women, was raised by a feminist CEO mother (looks up to her as a great role model) but when he gets into arguments with women?  His best riposte line is "Roll over." in response.

Ker chunk!  Putting a woman in her place.

He also slept with my sister several times and then denied it, because as he put it during the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal, "All men who sleep with fat chicks lie about it."

These are the same men...who were raised well, by good families with strong mothers.  I don't demonize them, I just know some of them very very well.   :P  Wherever they got their how-to-interact-with-women-who-aren't-their-mothers script from, I don't know, but I'm thinking it wasn't their mothers.  :-\
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: souxi on November 15, 2007, 03:34:50 am
QUOTE:

I don't see why those in favour of the death penalty are so dead set on its continuation.  What harm to society is there in keeping even sadistical serial killers firmly behind lock and key - treating them humanely but certainly never letting them out into society again? When the very fact that they, even *they*, are treated humanly in prison serves to remind us all that society as a whole will and should demonstrably *not* sink towards their level in *any* way, shape or form: What they did in taking lives (not to mention the how and why and how often of it) was unconscionable and outside the realm of acceptable human behaviour, and the punishment in pointed contrast should be humane, though certainly not naive.  "An eye for an eye makes the world blind". QUOTE:

Treating them humanely?  Did I read that right? Did Hindley and Brady treat Leslie Anne Downey humanely when they sexually abused her, took photos of her, and recorded her screams and pleas to be allowed home to her mummy? Them two wern,t human, therefore didn,t deserve to be treated as such. Hell Hindley had her own cell, she was allowed a tv, allowed to decorate it as she wished, she took degrees, had access to computers and even had lesbian lovers in prison. Completly outragous. I,m sure Leslies mother would have liked her daughter to have got a degree in something had got herself a good job, had a family etc, but because of the EVIL actions of that depraved pair of monsters, she was denied all that, whilst that bitch Hindely got a life of comparative luxury, even if it was in a cell. Treat them humanely?? Don,t make me laugh. They wern,t human, they wern,t even animals, they were just monsters, pure and simple. She wasn,t punished even by being in prison. She had the one luxury her and her monster in crime denied all their victims, LIFE. Long may she rot/burn in hell.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Mikaela on November 15, 2007, 04:37:23 pm
Quote
Did I read that right?

You sure did. Human rights and humane treatment should be extended to all human beings, however inhumane their own actions. Otherwise society loses its humanity piece by piece.

I do not know how the mother you keep referring to would have reacted had she actually been given sole decision power concerning the fate of these people  - for instance, I do not know that she might not in the end have reacted the same way as Matthew Shepherd's father, who showed such enormous personal strenght in pointedly letting the murderers keep the life that they cruelly denied his son. But be that as it may, in civilized societies neither the burden of nor the right and obligation to singlehandedly determine the appropriate fate of murderers and to carry out the "sentence" lie with individuals directly related to the victim.

I will not otherwise repeat my argument further as I have explained my position sufficiently above. And Dagi and Gary, thank you both for kind words in that connection.  :)


I thought that for easy reference I might include what the International Humanist and Ethical Union has to say about the Death penalty:

http://www.iheu.org/node/2151

...and about Capital Punishment:

http://www.iheu.org/node/2019

Though I post this here for anyone who is interested, I do not think there is anything under these links that has not already been argued very eloquently by BM members involved in this discussion.  :)
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: David In Indy on November 15, 2007, 04:56:16 pm
Apparently this man will still be executed, but I'm pleased this country is finally thinking about capital punishment and how appalling and cruel it is. Maybe someday we (the United States) will abolish capital punishment forever and join the ranks of every other civilized country of the world. Did you know that with the exception of Japan, the United States is the only western nation that still endorses the death penalty? It's something to think about and consider....


From The CNN website:


U.S. Supreme Court Blocks Child Killer's Execution

JACKSONVILLE, Florida (AP) -- The U.S. Supreme Court halted the execution of convicted child killer Mark Dean Schwab on Thursday, hours before he was scheduled to die.


Mark Dean Schwab is on death row for the murder of 11-year-old Junny Rios-Martinez.

 The move by the high court was widely expected as it considers the appeals of two Kentucky inmates challenging the same lethal toxic three-drug combination used in Florida.

Schwab was sentenced to death for the murder of 11-year-old Junny Rios-Martinez.

In March 1991, the month Schwab was released from prison on a sexual assault sentence, a newspaper published a picture of Junny for winning a kite contest. Schwab gained the confidence of Junny's family, claiming he was with the newspaper and was writing an article on the boy.

On April 18, Schwab called Junny's school and pretended to be Junny's father and asked that the boy meet him after school. Two days later, Schwab called his aunt in Ohio and claimed that someone named Donald had made him kidnap and rape the boy.

He was later arrested and told police where he left Junny's body -- in a footlocker in a rural part of Brevard County.

Schwab's execution was to be the first in Florida since the botched execution of Angel Diaz on December 13. It took 34 minutes for Diaz to die -- twice as long as normal -- because the guards pushed the needles through his veins.



Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Dagi on November 15, 2007, 05:42:22 pm
Quote
You sure did. Human rights and humane treatment should be extended to all human beings, however inhumane their own actions. Otherwise society loses its humanity piece by piece.

Thanks for this post, Mikaela.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 15, 2007, 11:15:39 pm
You sure did. Human rights and humane treatment should be extended to all human beings, however inhumane their own actions. Otherwise society loses its humanity piece by piece.

Sorry, I don't buy this.  We do things that are unpleasant in life because there is a need.  Some choices are the lesser of two evils.  These things are not done because they're enjoyable.  There's very likely not a single policeman or person who believes in the death penalty or judge or jury or soldier that sentences someone to the death penalty or uses deadly force in the performance of their duties that would say they enjoy it.  They believe there are hard choices to make in life and they know they have to live with the consequences of their actions.

So to tell them that their actions contribute to society losing its 'humanity piece by piece' or that they're 'uncivilized' is not only insensitve but offensive.

As for:

Quote
Schwab's execution was to be the first in Florida since the botched execution of Angel Diaz on December 13. It took 34 minutes for Diaz to die -- twice as long as normal -- because the guards pushed the needles through his veins.

Honestly, do you wonder how much time Diaz took when he killed his victim?  I bet it wasn't just 34 minutes.

EDITED TO ADD:

From a quickie google search:

Angel Nieves Díaz was quickly involved in the world of crime and drugs, going by the nickname Papo la Muerte (Papa Death). In 1978, he was sentenced to 10-15 years in prison for second-degree murder of a director of Hogares Crea (a drug rehabilitation organization on the island) by stabbing him nineteen times while he was asleep.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Lynne on November 16, 2007, 05:21:04 am
..So to tell them that their actions contribute to society losing its 'humanity piece by piece' or that they're 'uncivilized' is not only insensitive but offensive...

Del, darlin', we just aren't ever going to agree, but I can live with it if you can. ;)  There's some folk wisdom I heard somewhere - something like 'Don't ever give ground because it's hell getting it back.'

I don't think this goes too far off-topic and I promise to bring it full circle.  Let's consider crimes less serious than murder and just immoral behavior in general...

Take a teenager who shoplifts for the thrill of it, knowing it's wrong.  S/he feels guilty, but the next time it's easier if s/he gets away with it and the feelings of remorse are likely lessened.

Take a person with poor self esteem who has sex with a stranger; s/he knows this is not good for the self-image.  The next time, though, the self-esteem is even lower, so what the hell, do it again and again, each time with less angst - less in touch your feelings.

Take a solider or a police officer forced to take a life in the line of duty.  I'm reasonably sure that the first time or two they experience a great deal of guilt and second guessing their decisions.  Eventually, though, they have to compartmentalize.  I know for a fact that snipers refer only to 'targets' - they have to dehumanize who they're about to kill.

I would argue that in all of these cases - losing a sense of right and wrong (remorse), losing touch with your feelings and self-worth, compartmentalizing so you're able to function in your job - are all examples of losing touch with our humanity.  So to summarize, society is made up of individuals and there is collective damage being done to our psyches.  I am still worried about the humanity of the people who administer the death penalty - what that must do to them - unless they are sociopaths themselves, I cannot imagine that they're unscathed.

Hi Lynne, I'm sorry you took that harsh, I guess it only read that way.  Another way to say that is "you don't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs".  Meaning, there are going to be things that happen in the course of any activity that are good and bad.  You cannot escape it.

I certainly support programs such as "The Innocent Project".  But remember, there are very few people on death row compared to the multitudes that are just imprisoned for life.  We don't give drug dealers and car thieves the death penalty. 

Everyone needs to remember we're talking about heinous crimes and very few juries give the death penalty on circumstantial evidence cases.  They usually give life in prison sentences simply because they do give the benefit of the doubt to the person convicted.

But like Dahlmer, sometimes there truly is a smoking gun.  Blood splatter evidence, blow back evidence, admission by the perps of things like "We were alone in the house and she killed herself" when the bullet is in the back of the victim's head kind of thing.  Sometimes, it's just obvious.

As for perfection...well, striving for that simply gets you burned out people because you are reaching for something that doesn't exist. Look at your own job - don't know about you, but my bosses expect perfection because a mistake can be extremely costly, but at the same time, they don't like to spend money to hire more people and prefer that the people they do have sacrifice their personal lives so they can work 7 days a week.

So, perfection is expected at my place of employment.  Do we reach it?  Fuck no.  Do I try?  Nope.  I simply try my best.  If that gets perfection, great, if it doesn't?  Oh well, I tried my best and that's the most you can expect.

I'm still tracking that we're talking about the most heinous crimes and agree with most of what you've posted here.  I know that there's sometimes smoking guns and obvious evidence of guilt.  Nonetheless, I am not willing to equate vengeance with justice.  The death penalty cannot be 'cruel and unusual' so it's not as if we can actually make them suffer the way their victim(s) did.  I like Mr. Shepherd's speech - makes me think that the death penalty is the easy way out; rather let them live with the knowledge of what they've done and know they owe their every very long day of a very long life to their victim.

The part I highlighted, though, I find very sad.  What's the point of the process of living if it's not to take a journey to get in touch with what makes you human and unique and to become the best version of yourself??
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 16, 2007, 09:19:08 am
Hiya Lynne.  Of course we can agree to disagree,  :)  people on this forum are very passionate and believe strongly in what we believe in.  We're not likely to convince each other, but for the lurkers and fence-sitters, our discussions might help them make their own minds up.

I don't think this goes too far off-topic and I promise to bring it full circle.  Let's consider crimes less serious than murder and just immoral behavior in general...

Take a teenager who shoplifts for the thrill of it, knowing it's wrong.  S/he feels guilty, but the next time it's easier if s/he gets away with it and the feelings of remorse are likely lessened.

I don't think this "dehumanizes" her or makes her "uncivilized", more like selfish.

Quote
Take a person with poor self esteem who has sex with a stranger; s/he knows this is not good for the self-image.  The next time, though, the self-esteem is even lower, so what the hell, do it again and again, each time with less angst - less in touch your feelings.

My sister does this.  But she's hurt every single time she does it.  I don't see her losing her 'humanity'.  Now prostitutes to some degree compartmentalize, but don't we all do this to some degree?  Funeral directors do this, so do doctors.  Otherwise they couldn't stand the onslaught of strong emotions day in and day out.  I don't see that this "uncivilizes" them.

Quote
Take a solider or a police officer forced to take a life in the line of duty.  I'm reasonably sure that the first time or two they experience a great deal of guilt and second guessing their decisions.  Eventually, though, they have to compartmentalize.  I know for a fact that snipers refer only to 'targets' - they have to dehumanize who they're about to kill.

Of course soldiers do this.  It's the only way they can do their duty.  However, if you ask them, they'll say they're not doing it for 'god' or 'country' or 'patriotism', the majority say that at a very basic level, they're shooting because they're being shot at and to protect their friends - fellow soldiers.  To me that shows no less humanity or civilized behavior.  They're just showing their humanity to someone else.  And they certainly don't 'lose' it.  Some do, obviously - there are exceptions to everything, but most don't.  One show I saw of Pearl Harbor showed two types of veterans.  One veteran did not want an apology by a Japanese veteran pilot (even a Japanese pilot - despite WWII Bushido military training - was showing regret) and even shook his hand, letting bygones be bygones, telling him he had no reason to apologize, "We were both just doing our duty".  The other American solider refused to even approach the Japanese veterans at the event, he was crying and upset saying he would never forgive the Japanese because of all his friends they killed.

Are these men 'uncivilized' and losing touch with their 'humanity'?

Quote
I'm still tracking that we're talking about the most heinous crimes and agree with most of what you've posted here.  I know that there's sometimes smoking guns and obvious evidence of guilt.  Nonetheless, I am not willing to equate vengeance with justice.  The death penalty cannot be 'cruel and unusual' so it's not as if we can actually make them suffer the way their victim(s) did.  I like Mr. Shepherd's speech - makes me think that the death penalty is the easy way out; rather let them live with the knowledge of what they've done and know they owe their every very long day of a very long life to their victim.

OK, but I don't call it vengeance.  I call it self-defense and justice.  Mr. Shepherd's speech was very noble, but we're making the assumption that the criminals 'live with the knowledge of what they've done'.  That is an assumption.  Likely they're no less homophobic than before - in Mr. Shepherd's case - and there are criminals - despite being caught literally red-handed sometimes with a smoking gun - will tell you they're innocent and will continue to tell you that all the rest of their lives because they're in denial or they're sociopathic and don't think they ever do anything wrong.  So lengthy prison sentences won't affect them at all or "make them think", instead it makes them angrier and bitter and more self-righteous because they are the victims because they're innocent!  ::)

Quote
The part I highlighted, though, I find very sad.  What's the point of the process of living if it's not to take a journey to get in touch with what makes you human and unique and to become the best version of yourself??

I guess because some people don't have the philosophy of 'an unexamined life is not worth living'.  Instead they just want to be happy and have it easy.  Very basic and satisfying human goals.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 16, 2007, 11:33:58 am
I would argue that in all of these cases - losing a sense of right and wrong (remorse), losing touch with your feelings and self-worth, compartmentalizing so you're able to function in your job - are all examples of losing touch with our humanity.  So to summarize, society is made up of individuals and there is collective damage being done to our psyches.  I am still worried about the humanity of the people who administer the death penalty - what that must do to them - unless they are sociopaths themselves, I cannot imagine that they're unscathed.

Lynne, I found your entire post -- and particularly the paragraph above -- very eloquent.



Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Mikaela on November 16, 2007, 12:11:31 pm
So to tell them that their actions contribute to society losing its 'humanity piece by piece' or that they're 'uncivilized' is not only insensitve but offensive.


I do think that their actions contribute to society losing some of its humanity. I do believe the death penalty takes any society in a less civilized direction. And I do personally find that societies with a legal system founded on the idea of "killing to demonstrate that it's wrong to kill" (not to at all mention those societies that practice killing because it's wrong to commit adultery, leave one's religion, be actively homosexual etc etc) is less civilized than those who do not administer capital punishment.  I would not and have never gone to the step of pointing to each single person involved to say he/she is uncivilized, though I do think the combined system is certainly so. It is inhumane, in some cases even barbaric. Still there is the Nuremberg principle to remember: Whether someone goes along and "just follow orders" or if he/she's actively believing in or contributing to upholding the status quo of active use of capital punishment, then that person has his or her direct share of the responsibility.

I do not think it's insensitive to voice my opinion, and I've tried to maintain a reasonable and calm tone in my posts  - I'm certainly not trying to be offensive. However, in weighing the tender sensibilities of a person administering the death penalty against speaking up for someone about to be put to death, I have to chose the the latter even if the former is offended.  I would think that someone who is able to live with the fact that he/she is a direct contributor to administering the death penalty would also be able to hear an opinion such as mine voiced without being hurt and taking offense.



Lynne, thank you sincerely for expressing so well what I also think. Especially the paragraph that Crayons also pointed to.  :)
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 16, 2007, 01:19:15 pm
And I do personally find that societies with a legal system founded on the idea of "killing to demonstrate that it's wrong to kill" (not to at all mention those societies that practice killing because it's wrong to commit adultery, leave one's religion, be actively homosexual etc etc) is less civilized than those who do not administer capital punishment.

Mikaela, to me this sentence expresses not only the moral problem with capital punishment, but the practical one as well. As long as a society promotes killing as an acceptable solution to bad behavior, there will be murderers who essentially think they can judge bad behavior just as well as the government does. They may not rationalize it quite that clearly in their minds, but in effect that's what happens -- citizens are socialized to see killing as within the bounds of reasonable human conduct.

For the same reason you don't teach children not to hit by hitting them, you don't as a society promote violence if you don't want a violent society overall.



Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Mikaela on November 16, 2007, 03:36:56 pm
Citizens are socialized to see killing as within the bounds of reasonable human conduct.


Yes! That's just it.

I've been mulling this over and I realized that this is one thing that to me clearly illustrates the "dehumanizing" aspect on society of the active use of the death penalty: People become used to it. The act of actually taking someone's life is just another way of administering justice, nothing very special,  nothing to wrestle with one's conscience over. It becomes the order of the day - the focus turns to practical problems of how to kill effectively and efficiently rather than the ethical dilemmas inherent in killing at all.  :-\


I am not American, and I do not live in America, so I should of course be careful in making statements about public sentiment in the US. But Norway is fairly innundated with American culture; - we get most of the TV shows (even John Stewart now, whose program is very "internally American"), all the popular TV series, all the motion pictures....  So as far as it's fair to consider such cultural expressions as indicative of the attitudes in the American mainstream public, I've noticed this: In the American popular culture we are exposed to, the death penalty does not seem to be controversial at all. Though profoundly disturbing to me, it is presented on US TV as accepted and acceptable. As commonplace, a fact of life, nothing to spend mental resources on. That indicates to me that a certain dehumanizing effect from the use of capital punishment must have taken place in the US.

In various movies and in cop shows or legal shows or other types of show, - even those directed more at families and women, - any plot that involves the death penalty does not revolve around conscientious, humane and moral objectons to the death penalty per se, - but to the possibility that an innocent person has been or will be sentenced to death.

Once the right perpetrator has been identified, the main characters (with whom the audience is supposed to identify) just go their merry way without seeming to consider the ethical aspects of the guilty party's upcoming capital punishment. The death sentence is just kind of taken for granted.

I have seen various episodes of shows a la CSI where this has been evident, as well as (off the top of my head) episodes of "Judging Amy" and "Medium". And I do not watch that many TV shows, just an episode here and there. It seems unlikely that I've just happened to stumble across the few American movies and shows that happened to let the main characters be unbothered by the existence of the death penalty. 

The only show I can recall that had an episode where the death penalty was presented as difficult on the conscience, something more than a practical problem, - actually as a tough moral dilemma, - is "The West Wing". There was an episode fairly early in the series where president Bartlet personally had to decide whether to change the death sentence of a federal convict to life or let his execution go ahead. Bartlet struggled with this, and consulted various religious leaders, - but in the end he let the execution take place. I remember feeling so let down - that even that early more liberal version of "The West Wing" didn't have the courage to let the main character be seen to be "weak" - that is; humane and to stop an execution and save a life.  :(





Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: louisev on November 16, 2007, 03:39:05 pm
I read a very interesting Slate.com piece about the current moratorium on lethal injection executions imposed by the Supreme Court.  The columnist implied that while many conservatives are in favor of capital punishment, the issue of executions themselves is something almost universally avoided, and we could see a prolonged moratorium.  I found this a very interesting development.

http://www.slate.com/id/2176196/
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 16, 2007, 04:15:35 pm
I am not American, and I do not live in America, so I should of course be careful in making statements about public sentiment in the US. But Norway is fairly innundated with American culture; - we get most of the TV shows (even John Stewart now, whose program is very "internally American"), all the popular TV series, all the motion pictures....  So as far as it's fair to consider such cultural expressions as indicative of the attitudes in the American mainstream public, I've noticed this: In the American popular culture we are exposed to, the death penalty does not seem to be controversial at all. Though profoundly disturbing to me, it is presented on US TV as accepted and acceptable. As commonplace, a fact of life, nothing to spend mental resources on. That indicates to me that a certain dehumanizing effect from the use of capital punishment must have taken place in the US.

I don't think opposition here is as nonexistent as those TV shows suggest, but ... I was going to say that I thought American divisions over the death penalty more or less paralleled those on this thread. But then I thought I'd better do a little quick research. After all, BetterMost membership is presumably weighted to the left, which suggests death penalty opposition here would be higher than for the population as a whole.

I found a couple of articles, five or six years old, saying that the majority of Americans support the death penalty. But then I found one from last summer saying death-penalty support is in decline, and  55 percent of Americans now favor a moratorium. Apparently that is the result of all the exonerations that have occurred in recent years with the development of DNA analysis -- 87 percent now believe innocent people have been executed in recent years.

But 55 percent isn't a very strong proportion of opponents, and their reason for opposition -- while a good one -- is not the only problem. I was surprised myself by this. Another thing that surprised me was when I found that all but one of the Democratic presidential candidates -- even Hillary! even Obama! -- support the death penalty, at least in some cases. The exception is Chris Dodd, who is nowhere near a front runner.

I rarely see cop or legal shows, so I'm not familiar with how the issue is handled in the entertainment media. But I can imagine you're right, Mikaela, that the issue revolves more around potential innocence than the morality of the punishment in the first place.

You may have noticed that I like to stress, when discussing the death penalty, that I don't shed any tears for the individual criminals subjected to it. That's because I don't think you should have to feel sorry for someone in order to object to their life being taken. I hate what heinous criminals do. But their actions do not provide an excuse for us to descend to their level.



Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Mikaela on November 16, 2007, 05:24:38 pm
Quote
You may have noticed that I like to stress, when discussing the death penalty, that I don't shed any tears for the individual criminals subjected to it. That's because I don't think you should have to feel sorry for someone in order to object to their life being taken. I hate what heinous criminals do. But their actions do not provide an excuse for us to descend to their level.

By and large I would think this applies to most opponents of the death penalty.

( I also haven't at all been expecting those various TV and movie "good guys" to express sadness and sympathy for the convicted criminals (who true to current popular culture form will mostly have committed any number of sadistic and horrific murders), - but  I am as explained saddened that the plots nearly never involve anyone expressing or showing the least little moral qualm whatsoever related to the very inhumane existence of the death penalty. )

The two instances in recent years that I can recall creating strong waves of sympathy among people over here in respect of individuals sentenced to death in the US, was in the case of Karla Faye Tucker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Faye_Tucker) and especially  Napoleon Beazley (http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engAMR511052001?OpenDocument), who was sentenced to death for an admittedly vicious murder he committed while 17 years of age - and who was subsequently executed on May 28, 2002. That did get quite a lot of press here, he was interviewed in several papers, and people felt sorry for him, not just outraged in general at the existence of the death penalty.


Thanks for doing the quick research on this, Katherine. 55% is not a heartening percentage. Nor do I think the reasons for the current moratorium as put forth in the interesting but also chilling article Louise linked to are very heartening, but.... I suppose one shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth....
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: injest on November 16, 2007, 05:57:24 pm
I don't like most TV crime dramas because they tend to approach moral issues in an alarmingly simply way.  In those shows most of us are good guys, the Cops are the heros, and they protect us from the bad guys.  They tell us that we have to watch out for those meanies over there.

But being a moral and decent person primarily entails finding and correcting fault within ourselves.  Most cop shows and shows like America's Most Wanted tell us we shouldn't be really all that concerned about policing our own behavior and motives.  They tell us that bad things are done by bad people, and they are separate and apart from us.  That way of thinking can lead to a kind of smug, self-rightous attitude I think.  And sumg, self-rightous people can do a lot of harm, even if they operate within the bounds of law.
Gary   

channeling Picard:

Villians that come in twirling their mustaches are easy to spot..the ones that come clothed in good deeds are harder to spot...and we must be eternally vigilant.

Too often people give away their rights to others because then they don't have to think about it....but too often the people that are willing to jump in and take over are the ones that have evil in their hearts...

and we don't see it til the damage is done.

to be honest the more I read the more ambivilent I feel. On the one hand I do believe there is a place for capital punishment...but on the other I don't want my husband to be the executioner...

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 16, 2007, 06:06:04 pm
By and large I would think this applies to most or at least many opponents of the death penalty -in general also including me, as I trust has been apparent in my posts on this subject.

Well, I think sometimes the behavior of death-penalty opponents blurs the issue a bit. For example, when I see a candlelight vigil held on behalf of someone being executed I can't help feeling ambivalent. True, I would imagine that at least some if not most of those attending are stating objection to the death penalty in general, that they're mourning for society as opposed to that one person. And even among those mourning for that one person, many may be doing so in the terms discussed earlier on this thread, recognizing every individual's preciousness as a human being in a larger philosophical or theological sense. That's fine.

But I wouldn't attend one of those vigils. To me, it's too close to an expression of mourning for the individual rather than for the larger issues. Although I absolutely oppose executing heinous criminals or making them suffer, I don't mourn their deaths. Am I making any sense? If they were to fall off a cliff I wouldn't feel sad. The thought of their deeds -- for example, the image of that girl pleading for her life, and her mother later having to listen to the tape (of course I put myself in that mother's position and imagine what it would be like to hear my own child's screams; I'm choking up now even thinking of it hypothetically) -- is so horrifying that it overwhelms any sympathy I could feel.

Plus, it annoys me that death-penalty advocates are able to dismiss the opposition by labeling them "bleeding hearts" or accusing them of wanting to "coddle" criminals. To me, it's less about the death penalty hurting the criminal and more about the death penalty hurting all of us, and that's where the focus should lie. That, I think, is what many Americans don't understand and why they're disturbed by the thought of an innocent accidentally being executed rather than by the whole sordid policy itself.

So I think that although most opponents on this thread share my ideas about capital punishment demeaning society, I'm not sure everybody is equally indifferent as to the fate of the murderer.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: moremojo on November 16, 2007, 06:11:43 pm
to be honest the more I read the more ambivilent I feel. On the one hand I do believe there is a place for capital punishment...but on the other I don't want my husband to be the executioner...
This sentiment would suggest that you might do better to align yourself against capital punishment. That seems like a fairly good litmus test: If I can't do such and such, and can't bear my loved one to have to do such and such, then maybe such and such shouldn't be done by anyone.

This reminds me of my superduper rationalization against war: For any war, ask yourself, "Am I willing to die myself for this war?" If you cannot honestly answer in the affirmative, then any support you give to that war is hypocritical.

There are limitations to this kind or reasoning, of course. For example, I would rather die than ever pilot an airplane, yet airplane pilot is a useful and perhaps even necessary occupation. I'm glad someone can play that role, and that I'm not the one doing it.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 16, 2007, 09:09:33 pm
Mikaela, to me this sentence expresses not only the moral problem with capital punishment, but the practical one as well. As long as a society promotes killing as an acceptable solution to bad behavior, there will be murderers who essentially think they can judge bad behavior just as well as the government does. They may not rationalize it quite that clearly in their minds, but in effect that's what happens -- citizens are socialized to see killing as within the bounds of reasonable human conduct.

Socialized, sure.  But are you saying that's the same thing as not having very charged emotions about having to do it?  Again, assumptions are being made about the people who sentence heinous killers to death.  You make it sound like they have just a la-di-da, how was your day? attitude when that's not the case at all.

Quote
For the same reason you don't teach children not to hit by hitting them, you don't as a society promote violence if you don't want a violent society overall.

Well actually that's another argument altogether.  ;D  I certainly believe that spanking should be a parental option for disciplining a child.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 16, 2007, 09:15:17 pm
You may have noticed that I like to stress, when discussing the death penalty, that I don't shed any tears for the individual criminals subjected to it. That's because I don't think you should have to feel sorry for someone in order to object to their life being taken. I hate what heinous criminals do. But their actions do not provide an excuse for us to descend to their level.

See, here is where we start running into problems.

A person is a law-abiding citizen, loves their parents, spouse, children, dogs, cats, sends money to charities, volunteers at the local shelter, supports minority rights, pays taxes, votes, has a job, is dependable, reliable, mature...

But if they happen to support captial punishment - suddenly these people are at the same level as a heinous murderer?!?!?

I most certainly take exception to that and find that statement extremely offensive.

EDITED TO ADD:  See my next post.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 16, 2007, 09:27:18 pm

I do not think it's insensitive to voice my opinion, and I've tried to maintain a reasonable and calm tone in my posts  - I'm certainly not trying to be offensive. However, in weighing the tender sensibilities of a person administering the death penalty against speaking up for someone about to be put to death, I have to chose the the latter even if the former is offended.  I would think that someone who is able to live with the fact that he/she is a direct contributor to administering the death penalty would also be able to hear an opinion such as mine voiced without being hurt and taking offense.

I'm not saying people on this discussion are being ugly or taking personal jabs, but yes, some things being said are offensive.

As for the above, I don't know where you stand on a woman's right to an abortion, but pro-life activists take this same stance.  They believe women seeking abortions are wrong and thus have no problem being offensive and insulting those women who are trying to exercise their legal rights.  They're putting babies to death, you see and thus they feel that gives them the right to act as they do.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Shasta542 on November 16, 2007, 09:32:47 pm
This sentiment would suggest that you might do better to align yourself against capital punishment. That seems like a fairly good litmus test: If I can't do such and such, and can't bear my loved one to have to do such and such, then maybe such and such shouldn't be done by anyone.

This reminds me of my superduper rationalization against war: For any war, ask yourself, "Am I willing to die myself for this war?" If you cannot honestly answer in the affirmative, then any support you give to that war is hypocritical.

There are limitations to this kind or reasoning, of course. For example, I would rather die than ever pilot an airplane, yet airplane pilot is a useful and perhaps even necessary occupation. I'm glad someone can play that role, and that I'm not the one doing it.

Soldier is a useful and necessary occupation too. I don't want to be one, but I'm glad someone does.

I don't want to be a police officer, but I am happy that someone wants to. That's a useful and necessary occupation. Same with fireman.

I don't think people who don't wish to do that job are hypocrites. I believe that I need to be supportive of those roles because I wish to be protected by them. I'm always respectful to policemen when they stop me -- even if I wasn't doing what they thought. If I wanted to be protected by them, but I was rude to them when they try to do their jobs, I'd be a hypocrite I think -- but not one just because I don't want that profession.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on November 17, 2007, 02:06:14 am
But if they happen to support captial punishment - suddenly these people are at the same level as a heinous murderer?!?!?

I most certainly take exception to that and find that statement extremely offensive.

Sorry, Del, and I'm glad to see that in your next post you clarify it to indicate you don't feel people are being ugly or taking personal jabs. Of course I didn't mean the "on the same level" quite that literally. I'm not saying that there's absolutely no distinction whatsoever between a tax-paying, charity-giving, family-loving death penalty supporter and a heinous murderer. As I said in my previous post, I wouldn't care if a heinous murderer fell off a cliff. And of course I don't feel that way about death-penalty supporters on the basis of their beliefs.

What I was talking about was that the death-penalty proponent and the heinous murderer have taken the same approach, or at least share an opinion, where killing is concerned. At whatever level, on whatever basis, both see killing as an acceptable action under certain circumstances.

I think we're discussing an issue that people obviously feel very passionately about, and sometimes they will make strong statements to express those feelings. I hope we can continue to discuss it without people taking personal offense. That's sort of the nature of this kind of thread. I can imagine someone coming back and saying, "Well, YOU'RE just as bad as a heinous criminal because you would let him get away with taking someone's life but let him just keep on living happily ever after." Or whatever. It's a thorny issue, with a lot of intense emotion on each side, and I think we have to prepare ourselves for that, or not get involved in this kind of thread in the first place. We're expressing political opinions -- as you said, it's not personal.

But you're a tough arguer, Del, so I hope you can see what I'm saying.



Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Lynne on November 17, 2007, 02:58:57 am
But you're a tough arguer, Del, so I hope you can see what I'm saying.

True, that! ;) Tell you what, I really enjoy these sorts of discussions, especially when we keep it respectful (and we do a fab job of that as a rule).  I like feeling my brain being challenged by differeing viewpoints and making myself stop and think about WHY I feel the way I do.  So thanks to everyone who participates!
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Mikaela on November 17, 2007, 07:34:27 am
I'm not saying people on this discussion are being ugly or taking personal jabs, but yes, some things being said are offensive.

As for the above, I don't know where you stand on a woman's right to an abortion

My stance on that is well documented in this very thread. I think we happen to fully agree on that subject...

Quote
....but pro-life activists take this same stance.  They believe women seeking abortions are wrong and thus have no problem being offensive and insulting those women who are trying to exercise their legal rights.  They're putting babies to death, you see and thus they feel that gives them the right to act as they do.

There's a huge difference between acting, and speaking your mind in a calm and considered voice in the approprioate forum. The latter is what I've been trying to do throughout and in looking back I do not think I've said anything offensive for a discussion on this topic, - nothing that anyone involved with capital punishments or supporting capital punishments shouldn't already have considered themselves and must be prepared to hear voiced in a discussion on the topic - nothing they should not already know is the strong conviction of others.

Inhumanity is not a word I think it's necessary to find polite oblique euphemisms for.

Now concerning abortions, I've certainly always admittet the pro-lifers right to speak their mind and to express in discussions that they think abortion is "killing a baby". It irks me somewhat personally to hear it, and I admit as much - since this is such a sensitive subject and I strongly disagree with their opinion. But I accept that they really think so, and I wouldn't stop them from saying it or arguing that case in the appropriate forum and situation (which is *not* screaming it furiously into the face of a distraught woman trying to enter an abortion clinic).  In fact, their insistence on their "pro-life" view  has certainly caused me (and probably others) to examine much more closely my personal stance on abortion - pondering whether I've sufficiently considered their objections to my own opinion. I would hope and even expect that the responsibles for the death penalty and indeed supporters of the death penalty would react in the same way upon hearing arguments like mine.

Quote
assumptions are being made about the people who sentence heinous killers to death.  You make it sound like they have just a la-di-da, how was your day? attitude when that's not the case at all.

I guess we have no idea how each individual among these persons (and the executioners and everyone involved in the practical carrying out of a death sentence) feel about what they're doing.... I guess they probably run the whole gamut of the spectre from being very torn about it, struggling with their conscience, to actually feeling pretty la-di-da-how-was-your-day about it. As Gary says above;
Quote
I remember one of my psychology profs telling us that not all psychopathes are criminals.  Some of them find ways to operate inside the law....
But however that may be, in all cases, the point is that they *do* do their job and so they have a direct responsibility for the death that follows - it is not possible to claim "they were just following orders / doing their job" to avoid that personal responsibility. If they believed that their job and those orders were wrong and inhumane, at a minimum they should walk away from it.

This has me right back to thinking about the people actually involved with carrying out executions. I cannot imagine that their work doesn't have a thoroughly dehumanizing impact on them  -  at the very least that they close off their human emotions and their empathy, and that that is not something that can just be switched on again at the end of the working day. 

And that is actually a point I'd like to hear more about in this discussion. How does their work impact those directly involved in the practicalities of capital punishment? What kind of persons, what type of personality take on this kind of job? I know the last UK executioner of many years wrote an autobiography. Has anyone here read it?

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Mikaela on November 17, 2007, 08:49:39 am
Albert Pierrepoint

Well, I'm back. I've googled a bit and here is the Wikipedia entry on Albert Pierrepoint, "by far the most prolific British hangman of the twentieth century":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pierrepoint

Without vouching for the accuracy of the Wikipedia article, it says that:

Quote
Pierrepoint became an opponent of capital punishment. The reason for this seems to be a combination of the experiences of his father, his uncle, and himself, whereupon reprieves were granted in accordance with political expediency or public fancy and little to do with the merits of the case in question. [   ]  But Pierrepoint kept his opinions to himself on the topic until his 1974 autobiography, Executioner: Pierrepoint, in which he commented:

"I have come to the conclusion that executions solve nothing, and are only an antiquated relic of a primitive desire for revenge which takes the easy way and hands over the responsibility for revenge to other people...The trouble with the death penalty has always been that nobody wanted it for everybody, but everybody differed about who should get off."

The reason why Pierrepoint quit as an executioner has the strong ring of irony of fate, it's almost surreal, as I personally imagine that much of the practical proceedings surrounding a contemporary execution (last meal, last words....etc) must seem surreal to those involved: Far from it being an ethical statement on his part or resulting from an epiphany of any sort, he merely quit due to financial quibbling - due to a quarrel over 14 pounds in missing executioner's fees in the case of a last-minute-pardon:

Quote
Albert Pierrepoint resigned in 1956 over a disagreement with the Home Office about his fees. In January 1956 he had gone to Strangeways Prison, Manchester, to officiate at the execution of Thomas Bancroft, who was reprieved less than twelve hours before his scheduled execution, when Pierrepoint was already present making his preparations - the first time in his career that this had happened in England. He claimed his full fee of £15 but the under-sheriff of Lancashire offered only £1, as the rule in England was that the executioner was only paid for executions carried out – in Scotland he would have been paid in full.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: delalluvia on November 17, 2007, 12:35:08 pm
Little Rest, or Peace, for Texas Executioners
Huntsville death chamber is nation's busiest

Sara Rimer / New York Times

Jim Willett, Huntsville, Texas Executioner & Warden Huntsville, Texas -- Jim Willett, the warden of the prison here, awakened a little before 5 a. m. on Dec. 5 in his home, which his wife, Janice, had decorated for Christmas. He had not been looking forward to the day.

"My first thought was 'Today's an execution,' " he recalled later that morning. " 'I wonder what he'll be like.' "

Willett said he was hoping that the man who was to be put to death shortly after 6 p.m. would not resist and that the execution would proceed smoothly. Willett's job requires him to stand at the head of the person strapped on the gurney and to signal the anonymous executioner in the next room to inject the sedative and two lethal chemicals through a syringe. In his two and a half years as warden, Willett has given the signal -- raising his glasses -- that has killed 84 people.

"Just from a Christian standpoint, you can't see one of these and not consider that maybe it's not right," said Willett, 50.

It is the worst part of his job, he said, but it is his job just the same.

Now the prison, known as the Huntsville unit, was about to execute three men in three days. While that is not an unusual week for Huntsville, the United States' busiest death chamber, it would bring the year's total to 40, the most people legally killed by any state in one year in U.S. history, according to the Death Penalty Information Center, a nonprofit research group in Washington.

Those who champion the death penalty, the law-enforcement officials who call for it, the juries who vote for it, the judges who uphold it, the pardon boards and the governors who sign off on it, are not the ones who walk into the death chamber and help end lives.

That task falls to Willett and a dozen or so members of his staff: husbands and fathers who coach baseball, go fishing, attend church and lead mostly ordinary lives except when it comes time to lead the condemned to a 9-by-12- foot room deep inside the prison, and secure them to a gurney with eight mustard-colored leather straps so that they can be injected with the drugs that will kill them.

The first lethal injection in the country was performed in that room in 1982, and with the three executions in the week of Dec. 3 the total number rose to 239, more than half of them in the last four years.

These men do their jobs in a town and a state that ardently support the death penalty. But in the week of the three executions they shared their usually unspoken doubts, including their uneasiness with the detachment that allows them to go about their work.

Kenneth Dean, 37, is the head of the tie-down team, which does exactly what the name implies. A shy, burly man, Dean has performed that job about 130 times. He does not like to keep count.

On Tuesday morning, Dec. 5, he had made plans with his children -- Kourtney,

7, and Kevin, 13 -- for the evening. Recently divorced, he spends a couple of hours with them on Tuesday nights.

"I told them, 'Daddy has to work late tonight, he has an execution.' " Lately, Dean said, his daughter has been asking a lot of questions: " 'What is an execution? What do you do?'

"It's hard explaining to a 7-year-old," he added.

From all reports, Garry Miller, 33, a former bartender who was to be put to death on Dec. 5 for the 1989 rape and murder of 7-year-old April Marie Wilson, was not going to give them any trouble. He had told his lawyers not to file any further appeals. He said he was ready to die.

At 6:07 p.m., Dean escorted members of the victim's family, several prison officials and reporters down a long corridor and past a steel door into what is known as the death house: eight cells and the death chamber.

The witnesses stared through a large, barred window into the death chamber. Miller, a big man with glasses and an inmate's pasty skin, was lying on the gurney, with a Bible on his chest, under a white sheet. He had an IV in each wrist. The IVs are always inserted before the witnesses are brought in. Miller's head rested on a pillow.

The warden stood just behind Miller's head. The prison chaplain, Jim Brazzil, was at his feet.

Miller looked straight at Marjorie Howlett, the mother of the little girl he had killed, who was crying. They had known each other before the murder.

"Maggie, I am sorry," Miller said through a microphone above his head. "I always wanted to tell you, but I just didn't know how."

He said a brief prayer and told the warden he was ready. The warden raised his glasses. At 6:23 p.m., a doctor came into the room and pronounced Miller dead.

After the witnesses filed out, the tie-down team re-entered the death chamber, unfastened the straps around Miller's body, and transferred him to another gurney. The body was loaded into a waiting hearse and taken away. The death certificate would read: "State-ordered legal homicide."

About 15 minutes later, as part of the execution-night ritual, Howlett was seated in the office across from the prison, answering reporters' questions. "I'm very glad I came," she said. "I had to see him gone."

By 7 p.m., an exhausted Dean was across town, sitting with his children in his car in the driveway of his former wife. His daughter was on his lap. "She said, 'Do you have another one tomorrow?' " Dean recalled later. "I said, 'Yes,

I have one for the next two days.'

"She said, 'Why do you have so many this week?' I said, 'I don't know, sweetie.' "

Dean, who is a Baptist, says he prays before and after every execution. He did not tell his daughter about his own questions. "All of us wonder if it's right," he said earlier in the day. "You know, there's a higher judgment than us. You second-guess yourself. I know how I feel, but is it the right way to feel? Is what we do right? But if we didn't do it, who would do it?"

The maximum-security Huntsville unit, built in 1848, takes up two blocks in the middle of this East Texas town of 35,000 people. Its red-brick walls are 30 feet high; hence its nickname, The Walls. A Christmas sign, a herd of reindeer and a string of Christmas lights decorate the front wall.

The business of Huntsville is the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, known as the TDCJ, which has its headquarters there. There are seven prisons in the area, housing about 13,400 inmates. The prison containing death row, where there are 443 condemned people, is in Livingston, 40 miles away. They are brought here on the afternoon of their execution and spend their final hours in a death-house cell.

It is better, Dean said, that the death-row inmates are in Livingston. That way, he said, he and his fellow officers are not helping execute people they know.

On Dec. 6, Dean was talking of how he sometimes worried about his own detachment. "That was one part I had to deal with," he said. "You expect to feel a certain way; then you think, 'Is there something wrong with me that I don't?' Then after a while you get to think, 'Why isn't this bothering me?' It is such a clinical process. You expect the worst with death, but you don't see the worst in death."

The detachment Dean describes is not only common among those who participate in executions, but necessary for them to be able to do their jobs, said Robert Jay Lifton, a psychiatrist who, with Greg Mitchell, wrote about such people in a new book, "Who Owns Death? Capital Punishment, the American Conscience and the End of Executions."

"It violates a profound human reluctance to kill, and they must overcome it,
" Lifton said. The clinical nature of lethal injections makes it easier to kill. "You have the ultimate form of medicalization, which enables those carrying out the execution in many cases to feel very little," Lifton said. "It also mutes it for the society at large."

Shortly before 1 p.m. Dean and Terry Green, another member of the tie-down team, were awaiting the arrival of Daniel Hittle, a 50-year-old former welder, who was to be executed that evening for the 1989 murder of a Garland police officer, Gerald Walker.

The prison world is one in which it is difficult to refuse a request from a superior, but turning down an invitation to serve on the death team is one refusal that is acceptable, Dean and Green said. Those who participate in executions must be at the rank of sergeant or above, which means there is a pool of about 25 people. Several have declined. "No one looks down on them," said Green, 48, a captain who has been a member of the tie-down team for two years.

There is no extra pay for executions.


Dean said he had thought long and hard about his stand on the death penalty before he said "yes" 10 years ago to a supervisor's request that he join the team. "I researched it," he said. "I spoke to pastors to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting what the Bible said about the death penalty."

Green nodded. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's," he said, paraphrasing Matthew 22:22. To Green, who is a Baptist, that passage means that the law should be upheld, and in Texas the law requires that some people be executed for their crimes. Green says he sees the tie-down team as upholding the law.

Hittle's execution went smoothly. When it was over, the widow of the murdered officer, Beckie Walker, left without talking to reporters. Jimmie George, an officer with the Garland Police Department, released a statement.

"The death of Daniel Hittle does not bring Gerald back," it said, but would "guarantee that no police officer will ever face the danger of dealing with him again."

The following day, Dec. 7, the warden was in a reflective mood.

"I don't really know how I feel about this," Willett said. "The sad thing is we end up with more victims, like the inmate's mother. Can you imagine watching your son die?

"On the other hand," he added, "I can understand why she's there."

Relatives of the condemned can witness the execution, and many times the warden has looked on as the mother of the man on the gurney watched her son take his last breath. None of the mothers or fathers of the three condemned men were there.

It looked as though the third execution was going to hold to the routine. Shortly before noon, Willett's secretary, Kim Huff, had an update on Claude Jones, who was to be executed for the 1989 armed robbery and murder of a liquor-store owner, Allen Hilzendager, 44, in the town of Point Blank.

"He says he doesn't want a damn stay; he's 60 years old, he's ready to go," Huff said.

The warden left to meet his wife for a rare lunch out. When Willett got up from the table to greet friends, his wife talked about the toll the job takes on him.

"I was so worried about him a few weeks ago," she said, referring to her husband's reaction to a man he had helped kill recently. "He said, 'I met one of the nicest men I've ever met today.' I thought, 'Oh, he's fixing to break.' "

The usually easygoing and genial warden did not break. But after nearly 30 years with TDCJ, Willett is looking forward to his retirement early next year, when he said he could stop "messing with these executions."

That day, the odds caught up with the warden and the others. The third execution did not go smoothly. It was delayed by about 30 minutes while the medical team struggled to insert an IV into a vein of Jones, who had been a longtime intravenous drug user.

Leaving the prison at about 7 p.m., Dean looked drained.

"They had to stick him about five times," he said. "They finally put it in his leg."

Hilzendager's sister, Gayle Currie, witnessed the execution. "It gave me a peace of mind to know that he will never hurt anyone again," Currie said afterward.

Larry Fitzgerald, a prison spokesman whose job requires him to witness every execution, was visibly relieved. "This is the best day of the year for me," he said. "I don't have any more executions this year. I've had it. Forty is a lot." He had now witnessed 144 executions in five years.

"It bothers me," said Fitzgerald, 63, "that I don't remember all their names."

The executions will start again in January. Three more are scheduled for that month.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on April 08, 2008, 11:36:25 pm
Actually, the reason I specified New Orleans is because I didn't hear of them as often in Minneapolis. Why, I wonder? Perhaps because it's not as much of a gun culture -- despite the lack of death penalty? Part of it could be that I just didn't pay as much attention there -- with it no longer a professional requirement, I avoided the sad parts of the paper where stories like that normally run. (Ditto Chicago.) But really, I think they happened more often in LA.

Oh, well, of course. I agree. I just don't think these are as easily prevented by handgun laws.

Here, as I outlined ad nauseum in the Death Penalty thread, is where I would disagree.

Though of course you're somewhat of a self-selecting sample (how's that for alliteration?). The children who WERE tempted to mishandle their parents guns may not be here to post about it. But note that of the examples I listed in my previous post, the one you quoted, only one of them involved mishandling by a child.



I like your sibilant alliteration! And thank you for an excellent example of an "selected sample" to illustrate gun violence : your choice of NO. NO's violence has as much to do with the local NO demography, their culture and folkways as their possesion of firearms. I noted in another thread in a galaxy far,far away and long,long ago, that after Katrina, the city of Houston was deluged with NO refugees, and along with their portable possessions and need for permanent public assistance, they brought a dramatic increase in violent crime and murder to Houston. That is a much better comparison given geographical latitude than the one you use with M/StP. Lovely city, by the way, during the summer, Minneapolis, is. 

You may for many reasons disagree with the death penalty, many people do on moral grounds. But, to suggest that an executed murderer will not murder again is just Alice in Wonderland. When they die, they cease being a threat to the community.

 Do we need to revisit that proud moment in American liberalism : Willy Horton? The early release of convicted murdered Willy Horton who decided that murder and rape was so much fun it was worth repeating,  after the charming Gov Dukakis released him. As Gomer Pyle said, surprise, surprise surprise ! And to suggest that some potential murderers will not be dissuaded from murder by a death penalty that is swiftly and surely applied also defies human nature. The problem, like most of the problems in the crime and punishment scene, are the liberals in public policy venues who prevent the swift and sure application of the death penalty. Get liberals out of the way, and the murder rate will plummet, along with taxes.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on April 09, 2008, 12:42:08 am
Do we need to revisit that proud moment in American liberalism : Willy Horton? The early release of convicted murdered Willy Horton who decided that murder and rape was so much fun it was worth repeating,  after the charming Gov Dukakis released him.

I resisted the urge to correct this in your last post, but now you leave me no choice. This subject has come up before. From Wikipedia:

Quote
William R. Horton (born August 12, 1951 in Chesterfield, South Carolina) is a convicted felon who was the subject of a Massachusetts weekend furlough program that released him while serving a life sentence for murder, without the possibility of parole, during which furloughs he committed armed robbery and rape.

So see? He didn't murder anyone while on furlough. Therefore the furloughs were not a problem at all!  ;D

Quote
And to suggest that some potential murderers will not be dissuaded from murder by a death penalty that is swiftly and surely applied also defies human nature.

Oh, there probably are some murderers out there who would stop themselves mid-crime, think ahead to the future, assume that chances are they'll be caught, know they'll get that swift and sure death penalty, and put their gun away.

Trouble is, I see that as the exception to human nature. Most people don't want to do life in prison, either. Yet somehow they keep on murderin'.

My contention is that if we weren't such a culture of violence -- including one that heartily approves of widespread gun ownership, jumps all over anyone who suggests tightening gun laws, and endorses legalized murder in the form of capital punishment (and, while we're at it, in the form of invasive war) -- there would be fewer would-be murderers created in the first place.

Quote
The problem, like most of the problems in the crime and punishment scene, are the liberals in public policy venues who prevent the swift and sure application of the death penalty. Get liberals out of the way, and the murder rate will plummet, along with taxes.

That, to me, explains why all the other industrialized countries have tougher gun laws, no capital punishment, no invasion of Iraq, in many cases even more liberals  ;) -- and much lower murder rates.



Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on April 09, 2008, 08:47:39 am
Oh, there probably are some murderers out there who would stop themselves mid-crime, think ahead to the future, assume that chances are they'll be caught, know they'll get that swift and sure death penalty, and put their gun away.

Trouble is, I see that as the exception to human nature. Most people don't want to do life in prison, either. Yet somehow they keep on murderin'.


Anyone who is so narcissistic as to think he can get away with a premeditated murder will not be deterred by the threat of capital punishment. People who kill in the heat of anger won't be deterred by it either, as they are out of control emotionally when they kill.

Get liberals out of the way, and the murder rate will plummet, along with taxes.

Get liberals out of the way, and there will be no one to stand between you and the needle when you are falsely and unjustly convicted of murder on the basis of testimony by unreliable witnesses and corrupt or lazy law enforcement personnel.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on April 09, 2008, 10:57:12 pm

Actually, the reason I specified New Orleans is because I didn't hear of them as often in Minneapolis. Why, I wonder? Perhaps because it's not as much of a gun culture -- despite the lack of death penalty? Part of it could be that I just didn't pay as much attention there -- with it no longer a professional requirement, I avoided the sad parts of the paper where stories like that normally run. (Ditto Chicago.) But really, I think they happened more often in LA.

Oh, well, of course. I agree. I just don't think these are as easily prevented by handgun laws.

Here, as I outlined ad nauseum in the Death Penalty thread, is where I would disagree.

Though of course you're somewhat of a self-selecting sample (how's that for alliteration?). The children who WERE tempted to mishandle their parents guns may not be here to post about it. But note that of the examples I listed in my previous post, the one you quoted, only one of them involved mishandling by a child.



 ;D I can't see how your case against the death penalty is enhanced by reminding everyone of exactly what the brutal convicted murdered Willie Horton actually did when he was not only not executed by the state of MA for his brutal crime, but in fact released on a "weekend rehabilitation" program administered and advocated by liberal Democrat Gov Michael Dukakis (MA). I wouldn't have shared the details, because they are so inflammatory, but since you wish to press the issue.

Lets see, on a weekend furlough which put the convicted murderers they released "on their honor to return" at the end of their weekend of rest and rehab, Horton managed to get transportation from MA all the way down to MD. And there the "honorable" murderer Horton  managed to:

1) Brutally pistol whip and slice open the stomach of a man - he required extensive surgery later

2) Savagely beat, strangled and raped a woman - she also required surgery

3) stole the victims vehicle

4) after being apprehended by MD authorities, the judicial system in MD refused to return Horton to MA because of their justifiable fears that MA would just release Horton again.

REMEMBER, this is a man who had already committed a brutal murder, and because MA does not impose the death penalty, he was allowed to live, be released and commit brutal crimes again. It really is a no brainer that if Horton had been executed for the first crime, he would not have been able to commit the second.


Dukakis & Willie Horton
The Willie Horton case
10/88


"In Massachusetts, first-degree murderers used to get out of prison for the weekend ...

Governor Michael Dukakis believed that it was "rehabilitative" for prisoners to be allowed to roam the streets unsupervised in what was known as the Prison Furlough Program.

That practice was finally outlawed by state legislators on April 28, 1988, after an enormous grassroots petition drive brought the issue before the people.

Here are the cold hard facts about Governor Dukakis' "experiment in justice," which has received little coverage on campaign news broadcasts:

* On June 6, 1986, convicted murderer Willie Horton was released from the Northeastern Correctional Center in Concord. Under state law, he had become eligible for an unguarded, 48-hour furlough. He never came back.

* Horton showed up in Oxon Hill, Maryland, on April 3, 1987. Clifford Barnes, 28, heard footsteps in his house and thought his fiancée had returned early from a wedding party. Suddenly Willie Horton stepped out of the shadows with a gun. For the next seven hours, Horton punched, pistol-whipped, and kicked Barnes - and also cut him 22 times across his midsection.

* When Barnes' fiancée Angela returned that evening, Horton gagged her and savagely raped her twice. Horton then stole Barnes' car, and was later chased by police until captured.

* On October 20, 1987, Horton was sentenced in Maryland to two consecutive life terms plus 85 years. The sentencing judge refused to return Horton to Massachusetts, saying, "I'm not prepared to take the chance that Mr. Horton might again be furloughed or otherwise released. This man should never draw a breath of free air again."

* Variations of this story were repeated on several occasions in Massachusetts. Confessed rapist John Zukoski, who had brutally beaten and murdered a 44 year-old woman in 1970, became eligible for furloughs and was eventually paroled in 1986. A few months later he was arrested and indicted yet again for beating and raping a woman.

* The Massachusetts inmate furlough program actually began under Governor Francis Sargent in 1972. But in 1976 Governor Dukakis vetoed a bill to ban furloughs for first-degree murderers. It would, he said, "Cut the heart out of inmate rehabilitation."

* The program, in essence, released killers on an "honor system" to see if they would stay out of trouble. On the average, convicts who had been sentenced to "life without parole" spent fewer than 19 years in prison. By March 1987, Dukakis had commuted the sentences of 28 first-degree murderers.

* Of over 80 Massachusetts convicts listed as escaped and still at large, only four had actually "escaped." The rest simply walked away from furloughs, prerelease centers and other minimum-security programs. These convicts included murderers, rapists, armed robbers and drug dealers.

* First-degree murderer Armand Therrien was transferred from a medium security prison to a minimum-security one, which made him eligible for a work-release program. He walked off and vanished in December 1987.

* When citizens began to protest, Dukakis and his aides defended the program relentlessly. One commissioner stated that furloughs were a "management tool" to help the prisons. Unless a convict had hope of parole, he argued, "we would have a very dangerous population in an already dangerous system." But, critics wondered, if armed guards can't control dangerous killers inside locked cells, how are unarmed citizens supposed to deal with them?

* It was through the efforts of a grassroots organization, Citizens Against Unsafe Society, that the issue was finally brought before the people. With mounting pressure from his own aides to sign a bill ending the program - for fear that it would hurt his presidential campaign - Dukakis signed the legislation in April of this year."


The majority of this material was taken from the article "Getting Away with Murder," by Robert James Bidinotto, which appeared in Reader's Digest, July 1988.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on April 09, 2008, 11:04:46 pm
Anyone who is so narcissistic as to think he can get away with a premeditated murder will not be deterred by the threat of capital punishment. People who kill in the heat of anger won't be deterred by it either, as they are out of control emotionally when they kill.

Get liberals out of the way, and there will be no one to stand between you and the needle when you are falsely and unjustly convicted of murder on the basis of testimony by unreliable witnesses and corrupt or lazy law enforcement personnel.


and so you know that the handgun crimes that you were discussing in an earlier post are all crimes of passion?  :laugh:

and, if even only one of those crimes is premeditated and the killer is stopped by the thought of a noose around his or her neck, then the death penalty still sounds like a good idea to me.

I sincerely hope that more than "liberals" stand in the way of a miscarriage of justice, I do recall that there are both  state and a federal constitutions that just might help me avoid the needle and the gurney in that situation.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on April 09, 2008, 11:29:16 pm

Oh, there probably are some murderers out there who would stop themselves mid-crime, think ahead to the future, assume that chances are they'll be caught, know they'll get that swift and sure death penalty, and put their gun away.

My contention is that if we weren't such a culture of violence -- including one that heartily approves of widespread gun ownership, jumps all over anyone who suggests tightening gun laws, and endorses legalized murder in the form of capital punishment (and, while we're at it, in the form of invasive war) -- there would be fewer would-be murderers created in the first place.

That, to me, explains why all the other industrialized countries have tougher gun laws, no capital punishment, no invasion of Iraq, in many cases even more liberals  ;) -- and much lower murder rates.


Well, at least this is consistent with your view that the furlough program was not a failure since the murderer Horton only brutally assaulted, raped, and stole while on his weekend furlough - courtesy of Michael Dukakis. It seems to me that if ONE innocent victim is saved from being murdered by a swift and sure death penalty for murderers, then it has served a great purpose.

 I am often amazed at the apparent belief among the foes of the death penalty that the victim's life is not really important, I mean they are gone anyway, right? Flushed, over with, so why worry?

Death Penalty = Legalized Murder?

Essentially what you are saying is that the state taking of the life of someone like Horton is an unjustifiable killing. Therefore "murder by legal means", which puts that killing on par with the original murder committed by Horton. What you are also implying is that under your "enlightened" system, which you feel it necessary to call forth the criminal codes of other countries, the life of the victim murdered by Horton is of less value than the life of the murderer Horton. Now, you can claim that is not what you mean, but that is the underlying implication of having no enforceable death penalty. If the life of the murder victim was under the law as important to society as the life of someone like Horton, then Horton should die.

 :laugh: talk about conflating issues, I thought I had reached the limit with the "taxes and hand gun murderers" conflation. But, you have me beat hands down on the conflation front when you link : handgun violence, death penalties, and the war in Iraq.  :laugh:

don't you think that the unique history of this country, and its unique demography might explain much more about why some countries which do not have the death penalty have lower murder rates than the US? maybe the murder rates were already at much lower levels than the US rates when they abolished their death penalties?

that is the same error you made in comparing NO and Minneapolis. compare like with like and the analogies will work better.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on April 10, 2008, 01:19:41 am
As Del and David have correctly noted, there is a whole other thread about the death penalty. So I'll try  ::)  to minimize my philosophical views on that subject and simply point out the fallacies in your intepretation of my post, which is MUCH more on-topic about Charlton Heston.  ;)

Your response contains a number of major leaps in which I say A and you take that to mean C. But more troublesome is your describing my post as "conflating" two things -- as in, treating them as the same thing, or at least moral equivalents -- and what my post intended to do, which was compare them, categorize them similarly, consider them as side-by-side factors in a common outcome.

Here are a couple of illustrations of what I mean. The economy might be declining because of a) a crisis in the subprime mortgage industry and b) lack of consumer confidence. That does not mean there is no difference between subprime mortgage overextension and nervous consumers. Brokeback Mountain is my favorite movie because Heath Ledger was a great actor and Ang Lee is a good director. Yet Heath and Ang are two different people, who by happenstance came together to make a masterpiece.

So let's get to the specifics.

Well, at least this is consistent with your view that the furlough program was not a failure since the murderer Horton only brutally assaulted, raped, and stole while on his weekend furlough - courtesy of Michael Dukakis.

Where on earth did I make any assessment of the success or failure of the furlough program?? I simply pointed out that Willie Horton didn't kill anybody while on furlough. Which, contrary to what you had said, he didn't. Of course, as the moms at the playground always tell their children, armed robbery and rape are not OK.

Quote
It seems to me that if ONE innocent victim is saved from being murdered by a swift and sure death penalty for murderers, then it has served a great purpose.

It seems to me that if ONE innocent person is murdered unjustly by a swift and sure death penalty, then it is fatally flawed from a moral perspective. And since studies have shown that has likely happened numerous times even with a slow and uncertain death penalty, I'd say that consequence is all but inevitable.

Let me ask you, OFT, why is it that death penalty proponents seem to worry less about the lives of innocents hypothetically unjustly accused of murdering, than the lives of innocents hypothetically being saved by the capital punishment?

Quote
I am often amazed at the apparent belief among the foes of the death penalty that the victim's life is not really important, I mean they are gone anyway, right? Flushed, over with, so why worry?

Where on earth did I say this?? Again, this particular debate is better suited to the death penalty thread. But even on that thread, I can't recall any death-penalty proponent characterizing opponents in quite this extreme (and frivolous) a way. It's one thing to say that opposition to the death penalty doesn't treat the victim's life as important enough in contrast to one's horror of state-sponsored killing. Endlessly arguable, but a fair question. But how does opposing the death penalty equate in your view with considering "the victim's life ... not really important ... they're gone anyway"? That's misconstrues my point to an absurd degree. On the contrary, my view on the death penalty reflects the importance I place on ALL lives.

Quote
Essentially what you are saying is that the state taking of the life of someone like Horton is an unjustifiable killing.

Yes.

Quote
Therefore "murder by legal means", which puts that killing on par with the original murder committed by Horton.

No. See above. Even the legal system doesn't put all illegal murders on par with each other. For instance, premeditated murder is not treated the same way as impulsive murder, murdering a cop isn't treated the same way as murdering a civilian. So extend the categories and call them all murder.

Quote
What you are also implying is that under your "enlightened" system, which you feel it necessary to call forth the criminal codes of other countries,

Um, yeah, with the idea that it is not uninstructive to see how other similar societies handle a similar situation and consider why their systems work so much better -- why they don't have so many people in prison, let alone dead. You've disagreed with the reasons I've hypothesized. So what exactly do you see as the reasons?

Quote
the life of the victim murdered by Horton is of less value than the life of the murderer Horton.

No. See above. Their lives are of equal value. Are the two equally likable -- or, more to the point, are the two equally morally acceptable as human beings? No, probably not. But that's not the same thing as the value of life. The value of life is in a different category altogether.

I don't know where you'd get the "less value" thing anyway. Willie Horton killed somebody. So therefore that makes it OK for the state to kill somebody? How's that? Since when does our justice system have to revolve around a "tit for tat" mentality? Should we rob and rape him, too?

Quote
Now, you can claim that is not what you mean, but that is the underlying implication of having no enforceable death penalty. If the life of the murder victim was under the law as important to society as the life of someone like Horton, then Horton should die.

The law should consider all lives equally important, equally unnexpendible. It's not up to people to decide who lives and who dies.

Quote
:laugh: talk about conflating issues, I thought I had reached the limit with the "taxes and hand gun murderers" conflation. But, you have me beat hands down on the conflation front when you link : handgun violence, death penalties, and the war in Iraq.  :laugh:

Well, again, I wasn't "conflating." I was just saying all of those things (and no doubt others) are factors in the same product: a violent society.

Quote
don't you think that the unique history of this country, and its unique demography might explain much more about why some countries which do not have the death penalty have lower murder rates than the US? maybe the murder rates were already at much lower levels than the US rates when they abolished their death penalties?

that is the same error you made in comparing NO and Minneapolis. compare like with like and the analogies will work better.

I'm not sure what you mean by "unique demography" and I'm reluctant to wade into this any further until I do. Yes, our U.S. demography differs from those of Western Europe, and the Minneapolis demography differs from that of N.O. But I'm not sure what aspects of those differences you're referring to, and without having more specifics I'm going to hold back on debating this point.



Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: injest on April 10, 2008, 01:28:02 am
Let me ask you, OFT, why is it that death penalty proponents seem to worry less about the lives of innocents hypothetically unjustly accused of murdering, than the lives of innocents hypothetically being saved by the capital punishment?



very simple.

the victims that MIGHT die if we release a murderer are the 'clean, white, middle class or higher' They think of the white blonde schoolgirl, the hard working retirees.

the 'innocent' prisoner that is executed is just another piece of poor trash that we will be better off without anyway. There are very few middle class white men on death row (and no wealthy ones)...those people in prison arent going to provide anything to society and if they were out running around they would just be breeding the next generation of trash. And if you dig enough they probably deserve their fate anyway.

(they will protest but this is the real reason under all the high minded talk)
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on April 10, 2008, 09:03:43 am
and so you know that the handgun crimes that you were discussing in an earlier post are all crimes of passion?  :laugh:

I wasn't even referring to the crimes I mentioned earlier. I was speaking generally. And why do you find that comment funny?

Quote
and, if even only one of those crimes is premeditated and the killer is stopped by the thought of a noose around his or her neck, then the death penalty still sounds like a good idea to me.

I never said the death penalty wasn't a good idea, either. As a matter of fact, I agree with you, more or less. I find it a perfectly acceptable punishment for particularly heinous crimes. It's the idea that it's any kind of a deterrent that I find false--even if it's swiftly applied. I'll leave to the legislators to define heinous.

Quote
I sincerely hope that more than "liberals" stand in the way of a miscarriage of justice, I do recall that there are both  state and a federal constitutions that just might help me avoid the needle and the gurney in that situation.

Sure enough. However, as far as I can tell, it never seems to be conservatives insisting that justice has miscarried when someone is convicted, or doing the legwork to prove it. It takes people to give life to those constitutions. If, God forbid, you ever find yourself in that situation, you'd better hope that one of those awful liberals is willing to take on your case and try to save your life. Most conservatives I ever hear of will just try to move up your execution date.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on April 10, 2008, 10:02:31 am
the 'innocent' prisoner that is executed is just another piece of poor trash that we will be better off without ...  if you dig enough they probably deserve their fate anyway.

Sure enough. However, as far as I can tell, it never seems to be conservatives insisting that justice has miscarried when someone is convicted, or doing the legwork to prove it.

Yes, I'm afraid I agree with these assessments of the way some death-penalty proponents view (at least tacitly) the prospect of mistakenly executing innocent citizens. To paraphrase Ennis: They'd probably deserve it.

I like to stick with the safe assumption that ALL human life -- blonde coed, heinous murderer, Iraqi civilian -- is valuable and sacrosanct and inviolable. We can't entirely prevent killings by murderers, though of course we should do what we can through actions ranging from gun laws to anti-poverty efforts to reducing our society's overall acceptance of violence. But we have complete control over whether we as a society deliberately cut short people's lives.


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on April 10, 2008, 05:23:25 pm
As Del and David have correctly noted, there is a whole other thread about the death penalty. So I'll try  ::)  to minimize my philosophical views on that subject and simply point out the fallacies in your intepretation of my post, which is MUCH more on-topic about Charlton Heston.  ;)

Your response contains a number of major leaps in which I say A and you take that to mean C. But more troublesome is your describing my post as "conflating" two things -- as in, treating them as the same thing, or at least moral equivalents -- and what my post intended to do, which was compare them, categorize them similarly, consider them as side-by-side factors in a common outcome.

Here are a couple of illustrations of what I mean. The economy might be declining because of a) a crisis in the subprime mortgage industry and b) lack of consumer confidence. That does not mean there is no difference between subprime mortgage overextension and nervous consumers. Brokeback Mountain is my favorite movie because Heath Ledger was a great actor and Ang Lee is a good director. Yet Heath and Ang are two different people, who by happenstance came together to make a masterpiece.

So let's get to the specifics.

Where on earth did I make any assessment of the success or failure of the furlough program?? I simply pointed out that Willie Horton didn't kill anybody while on furlough. Which, contrary to what you had said, he didn't. Of course, as the moms at the playground always tell their children, armed robbery and rape are not OK.

It seems to me that if ONE innocent person is murdered unjustly by a swift and sure death penalty, then it is fatally flawed from a moral perspective. And since studies have shown that has likely happened numerous times even with a slow and uncertain death penalty, I'd say that consequence is all but inevitable.

Let me ask you, OFT, why is it that death penalty proponents seem to worry less about the lives of innocents hypothetically unjustly accused of murdering, than the lives of innocents hypothetically being saved by the capital punishment?

Where on earth did I say this?? Again, this particular debate is better suited to the death penalty thread. But even on that thread, I can't recall any death-penalty proponent characterizing opponents in quite this extreme (and frivolous) a way. It's one thing to say that opposition to the death penalty doesn't treat the victim's life as important enough in contrast to one's horror of state-sponsored killing. Endlessly arguable, but a fair question. But how does opposing the death penalty equate in your view with considering "the victim's life ... not really important ... they're gone anyway"? That's misconstrues my point to an absurd degree. On the contrary, my view on the death penalty reflects the importance I place on ALL lives.

Yes.

No. See above. Even the legal system doesn't put all illegal murders on par with each other. For instance, premeditated murder is not treated the same way as impulsive murder, murdering a cop isn't treated the same way as murdering a civilian. So extend the categories and call them all murder.

Um, yeah, with the idea that it is not uninstructive to see how other similar societies handle a similar situation and consider why their systems work so much better -- why they don't have so many people in prison, let alone dead. You've disagreed with the reasons I've hypothesized. So what exactly do you see as the reasons?

No. See above. Their lives are of equal value. Are the two equally likable -- or, more to the point, are the two equally morally acceptable as human beings? No, probably not. But that's not the same thing as the value of life. The value of life is in a different category altogether.

I don't know where you'd get the "less value" thing anyway. Willie Horton killed somebody. So therefore that makes it OK for the state to kill somebody? How's that? Since when does our justice system have to revolve around a "tit for tat" mentality? Should we rob and rape him, too?

The law should consider all lives equally important, equally unnexpendible. It's not up to people to decide who lives and who dies.

Well, again, I wasn't "conflating." I was just saying all of those things (and no doubt others) are factors in the same product: a violent society.

I'm not sure what you mean by "unique demography" and I'm reluctant to wade into this any further until I do. Yes, our U.S. demography differs from those of Western Europe, and the Minneapolis demography differs from that of N.O. But I'm not sure what aspects of those differences you're referring to, and without having more specifics I'm going to hold back on debating this point.





 :laugh:  that is your "minimal" response? after your lengthy post, perhaps instead of the word "conflation" I should use the word "inflation"!  :laugh:

I will respect the opinions offered above that this thread has gone a bit off topic and certainly can wait to opine, if the moderators wish to meld this with a pre-existing "death penalty" thread.  :)
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on April 10, 2008, 06:00:35 pm
OK, here it is, successfully merged. Opine away, oilfieldtrash and everyone else!

 :)



Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on April 10, 2008, 11:47:02 pm
WOW! I had forgotten about this thread! This is one target rich environment. I will have to reread all of these posts, it will take a few days.   :) thanks for finding it again. Lots of people comment on this thread that I haven't heard from in while. 
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: serious crayons on April 11, 2008, 12:41:22 am
WOW! I had forgotten about this thread! This is one target rich environment. I will have to reread all of these posts, it will take a few days.   :) thanks for finding it again. Lots of people comment on this thread that I haven't heard from in while.

I love your can-do attitude!

 :D

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on April 11, 2008, 12:42:43 am
Crayons, I am always hopeful and "can do" about the present and the future. I still believe as Reagan did, "our best days are still ahead!".  :)
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: optom3 on April 16, 2008, 10:46:54 am
I voted no.I have thought long and hard about this .My husband was robbed at gunpoint 4 months ago and my oldest son was raped at scouts.
I know bith of these resulted in deaths but they were pretty heinous crimes which have had long lasting impact on our family.Both the criminals are still out and free.
It takes all my will power not to go to the supermarket where the rapist works as a bagger and tear him limb from limb.I too was raped when Iwas 15,by 3 boys So on the whole some pretty awful things have happened to me and my family.
Lives have been ruined,my rape resulted in permanant psychological damage.Y son is not much better.
Iam not a church goer and have not been for over 30 years,however I do think 2 wrongs do not make a right.If just one innocent person is killed by law,how can that ever be right.
I do believe however in life in soiltary confinement.No parole whatever,and that is as far as I would go.If people believe in the death penalty would they be able to do it themselves I wonder.i.e give the injection tie down the criminal,put the noose on the neack ets etc.I know I could not.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: souxi on April 16, 2008, 12:40:58 pm
I voted no.I have thought long and hard about this .My husband was robbed at gunpoint 4 months ago and my oldest son was raped at scouts.
I know bith of these resulted in deaths but they were pretty heinous crimes which have had long lasting impact on our family.Both the criminals are still out and free.
It takes all my will power not to go to the supermarket where the rapist works as a bagger and tear him limb from limb.I too was raped when Iwas 15,by 3 boys So on the whole some pretty awful things have happened to me and my family.
Lives have been ruined,my rape resulted in permanant psychological damage.Y son is not much better.
Iam not a church goer and have not been for over 30 years,however I do think 2 wrongs do not make a right.If just one innocent person is killed by law,how can that ever be right.
I do believe however in life in soiltary confinement.No parole whatever,and that is as far as I would go.If people believe in the death penalty would they be able to do it themselves I wonder.i.e give the injection tie down the criminal,put the noose on the neack ets etc.I know I could not.

Good grief sweetheart no wonder your so depressed. ((((((((optom)))))))))) The things that have happened to you and your family are just terrible beyond words.  I,m afraid your a better person than me then, because I would certainly want the death penalty for the scum that commited these henious crimes. I understand what your saying about two wrongs dont make a right, but for henious crimes so as these it,s the only thing they deserve. I sincerely wish you and your family all the love and luck in the world. I think you could all certainly do with some. I know I,m across the pond but I,m sending you all a BIG load of hugs and kisses anyway.
Souxi.  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: ZK on April 21, 2008, 11:18:43 pm
Having been a victim myself with the purpertrator never being brought to justice I still do not support the Death Penalty,the Death Penalty does not change the fact the crime had been committed. Lock them up, hard labour camp I don't know, but throw away the key.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Artiste on May 08, 2008, 05:43:44 pm
Yes, and the number should be higher!!

But for the real murderers to be hanged like the deaths they did to innocent persons !!

And the dope pushers included !!

Why not ?

Au revoir,
hugs!
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: optom3 on May 08, 2008, 11:03:44 pm
Good grief sweetheart no wonder your so depressed. ((((((((optom)))))))))) The things that have happened to you and your family are just terrible beyond words.  I,m afraid your a better person than me then, because I would certainly want the death penalty for the scum that commited these henious crimes. I understand what your saying about two wrongs dont make a right, but for henious crimes so as these it,s the only thing they deserve. I sincerely wish you and your family all the love and luck in the world. I think you could all certainly do with some. I know I,m across the pond but I,m sending you all a BIG load of hugs and kisses anyway.
Souxi.  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

It is odd really.Before all this happened I used to think if anyone harmed any of my family,they would not need the death penalty,becauseI would do the job.I used to think up hideous tortures,they had to die really slowly and painfully.Then the worst happened to 2 members of my family and I changed.I was so wrapped up in trying to help them recover,there was little time to think of anything else.Don't get me wrong I am no saint,I just found that if I let myself be consumed with hate and it wa difficult not to do,I could not help either my husband or son.
My husband is fine now.My son is even more damaged than he was before.But wanting to torture or kill the boy does not solve anything.The 1st time I made myself go into the Publix where he works part time.I was ready just to stick a knife in him,followed by castration and anything else you care to imagine.
I nstead when he offered to bag for me,I said I am -------- mother and I would rather you did not contaminate anything else of mine.IT was said pretty loudly,other customers looked and he knew what I meant.
I hd to get out pretty quick thouh as I was sweating and hyperventilating.He will get his punishment one day,as will the gunman.What goes round comes round.I just hope it is soon.I sometimes think omeone out there is having one heck of a good life,beacause I seem to be getting a double dose of crap!!!!!
I even read that book the secret at the start of the year.Stillw iting for my glorious epiphany.!!!!!!
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Artiste on May 09, 2008, 10:14:09 am
There is so much great love in you optom, that your son will and does see that, and that goes around as you say !!
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Artiste on May 30, 2008, 08:20:27 pm
Death penalty is needed more and more to those who murdered many for nothing !
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Artiste on November 07, 2008, 12:04:21 pm
Isn't it nescessary in certain cases ?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Monika on November 19, 2008, 08:47:41 am
No, no, no

We haven´t executed anyone here in Sweden in over a hundred years, for which I´m very glad.

And to those who say that the death penelty is a mean to scare people off from killing each other; We don´t have a high crime rate here in Sweden even though we don´t have the death penalty. Crimes are prevented through education, by a good social well-fare system and by trying to create a society where everyone can lead a decent life.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Penthesilea on November 19, 2008, 10:55:17 am
And to those who say that the death penelty is a mean to scare people off from killing each other; We don´t have a high crime rate here in Sweden even though we don´t have the death penalty. Crimes are prevented through education, by a good social well-fare system and by trying to create a society where everyone can lead a decent life.

Amen to that sister.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: souxi on November 19, 2008, 11:04:39 am
Isn't it nescessary in certain cases ?

For once in my life Artiste I,m going to agree with you. The death penalty for the scum of the earth such as paedophiles, hanging the bastards by their scrawny necks (having cut their dicks off with a rusty chainsaw first) is the only answer. If that makes me a bad person, too bad.  I,d happily pull the rope.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Artiste on November 19, 2008, 11:16:21 am
Surprised !
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Penthesilea on November 19, 2008, 11:22:48 am
It's kind of hard to educate career criminals who don't care if they live or die, and consequently don't care if you do either. 

Not to speak for Monika here, but I'm pretty sure she spoke of general crime prevention, not of convicted career criminals. At least that's how I understood her and that's what I agreed with.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Monika on November 19, 2008, 11:26:01 am
It's kind of hard to educate career criminals who don't care if they live or die, and consequently don't care of you do either.  I disagree.  The death penalty may not be a deterrent, but it is a solution.

In what way does it matter then if they spend their lives in jail instead of killing them?
Society should defend themselves aganst criminals, that should be the point of the court system, not to kill them off.

And I can see how killing criminals seems like an "easier" solution (if you could ever call taking a human life that) than to put money into resources to work proactive, to fight crime before it happens. That is much harder, but I for one is not willing to throw in the towl and go "naw, let´s just kill them instead".

And the death penalty really isn´t a solution. The crime has already been commited so it´s too late to do anything about that, and as has been proved in many surveys, the death penalty does not scare other people off from commiting crimes.

and..

it has been prooven that innocent people have been executed

and even criminals have families.


Up until 2005 it was even legal to execute 16 year olds in US, that has since then changed at least
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Monika on November 19, 2008, 11:28:28 am
Not to speak for Monika here, but I'm pretty sure she spoke of general crime prevention, not of convicted career criminals. At least that's how I understood her and that's what I agreed with.
Yes, that´s what I meant.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: karen1129 on November 19, 2008, 11:35:45 am
I am conflicted at time regarding the death penalty.  
I live in the state of Texas that executes more people then any other state.

I do not believe it is a deterrent. People who commit crimes, and murder people  just aren't thinking they
will get caught.

There are people that just deserve the death penalty.  Kenneth McDuff here in Texas was one of those
that truly deserved to die for his crimes.

I do have to admit though, if I was on a jury where the death penalty came up, I would really need some
very good proof that that person is indeed guilty.  


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: karen1129 on November 19, 2008, 11:41:10 am
In what way does it matter then if they spend their lives in jail instead of killing them?
Society should defend themselves aganst criminals, that should be the point of the court system, not to kill them off.

And I can see how killing criminals seems like an "easier" solution (if you could ever call taking a human life that) than to put money into resources to work proactive, to fight crime before it happens. That is much harder, but I for one is not willing to throw in the towl and go "naw, let´s just kill them instead".

And the death penalty really isn´t a solution. The crime has already been commited so it´s too late to do anything about that, and as has been proved in many surveys, the death penalty does not scare other people off from commiting crimes.

and..

it has been prooven that innocent people have been executed

and even criminals have families.


Up until 2005 it was even legal to execute 16 year olds in US, that has since then changed at least

I too believe innocent people have been executed.
That is why I would have a hard time serving on a jury
where the death penalty came into play.


Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Monika on November 19, 2008, 11:44:58 am
It costs nearly 25K annually to house a federal prisoner as compared to $3,500 for them to be out on probation.  I'm sorry but for convicted rapists, murderers, child molesters, terrorists, are not worth me as a taxpayer, spending that kind of money to keep them alive.  I don't see the death penalty as an "easy solution" and to intimate that I would find the taking of life would be easy for me is wrong and unfair.  I would grieve as much for the person and his/her family as I would for the victim, but in the end I would feel like justice was served properly.
First; I´m sorry, I didn´t mean to imply that you personally found it easy

I don´t think we should messure human life in money. At least I wouldn´t like to explain that kind of reasoning to the families of the executed. And I mean, how do we decide? Should we maybe kill anyone who is sentenced to prison then because they cost money, even it is for robbery or thefth? Don´t you see how hard it is to draw the lines?

And yes - it does cost money - and this is another reason to work proactive. Proactive work might cost money, but in the long run it´s lot cheaper, both in money and human lives counted.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Artiste on November 19, 2008, 11:55:05 am
It is difficult to say about the death penalty, but it is also nessessary in certain circumstances !

Of course, there has been some or many innocent who have been hanged... and the guilty should have been instead ! And that is why some fear, as innocent, that they will be hanged !

So, there needs to be be ways to find out who is not guilty and who is !!

That Chinese foreign who was in Canada for four years and who murdered an innocent young man in front of many in that Greyhound bus, I think that he shoiuld be hanged, don't you ?

Au revoir,
hugs!
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Monika on November 19, 2008, 12:06:43 pm
Well that brings up the other issue of prison overcrowding in those states that do not have the death penalty.  No I don't think that common criminals should be put to death (they should be made to reimburse for their incarceration though), but for those who have committed heinous acts, yes, simply, they should die.  You rape someone, you die, you molest a child, you die, you kill another, you will be killed.  Believe me, this flies in the face of my otherwise liberal stance on most things, so it's uncomfortable for me, but if I am being honest, it's how I feel.

Overcrowding is due to the fact that many states in the US have a high crime rate, I doubt it´s due to the fact that they don´t have the death penalty (it´s not like thousands of people are being executed after all). Again, why not take a closer look on why the crime rates are so high, and then to try and do something about that? That´s the only way to get the prisons to be less overcrowded. (and other kinds of punishment such in some cases)

But, we just have to agree to disagree I guess

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Monika on November 19, 2008, 12:12:40 pm
It is difficult to say about the death penalty, but it is also nessessary in certain circumstances !

Of course, there has been some or many innocent who have been hanged... and the guilty should have been instead ! And that is why some fear, as innocent, that they will be hanged !

So, there needs to be be ways to find out who is not guilty and who is !!

That Chinese foreign who was in Canada for four years and who murdered an innocent young man in front of many in that Greyhound bus, I think that he shoiuld be hanged, don't you ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

I remember that, that was scary. I had been traveling a lot on greyhound buses (visiting BBM locations!)in Canada the week before that happened so I remember it clearly.

But no, I don´t think he should be hanged. He is clearly not mentally well.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Monika on November 19, 2008, 12:14:46 pm
I can agree with that :)
Me too! :D
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: karen1129 on November 19, 2008, 12:18:56 pm
I remember that, that was scary. I had been traveling a lot on greyhound buses (visiting BBM locations!)in Canada the week before that happened so I remember it clearly.

But no, I don´t think he should be hanged. He is clearly not mentally well.

I don't think they have the death penalty in Canada.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Artiste on November 19, 2008, 12:21:04 pm
May I disagree with you, since I think that that greyhound murderer knows and knew what he was doing: murdering an innocent young man !!

And, I feel that he likely murdered others in Canada, the USA and plus in China too !!

But why do you want him not to be hanged ? Mental or not, he did murder ! And after 10 years or so or before, he will be out on the streets to probalby murder again and again - don't you think ? !

Awaiting your reply from you and all,

au revoir,
hugs!
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Monika on November 19, 2008, 12:22:30 pm
I don't think they have the death penalty in Canada.
good point :)
No they don´t
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Monika on November 19, 2008, 12:26:26 pm
May I disagree with you, since I think that that greyhound murderer knows and knew what he was doing: murdering an innocent young man !!

And, I feel that he likely murdered others in Canada, the USA and plus in China too !!

But why do you want him not to be hanged ? Mental or not, he did murder ! And after 10 years or so or before, he will be out on the streets to probalby murder again and again - don't you think ? !

Awaiting your reply from you and all,

au revoir,
hugs!
I don´t think he was mentally well because he choped a guy´s head off and proceeded to eat him. ;)
And if it would be ruled that he was not accountable for his actions due to mental illness, then it´s against the law to execute him.

and, morally, I also don´t think it´s right to execute people who don´t know what they are doing (it would be like killing small children)




and damn...all of a sudden I´m not a ranch hand anymore? I kind of liked that, made me feel all Ennis-like. Guess I have to come to term with being a "resident" then...
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: karen1129 on November 19, 2008, 12:27:33 pm
Texas does...they even have an expres lane.

Yes they do.  :(

As a Texan, it is not something I am necessarily proud of.



Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Artiste on November 19, 2008, 12:30:33 pm
You are right, I think, that there is no more death penalty in Canada! Unfortunately! So now, criminals run freely more and more killing even children and they get away with it, since they are in a gang or sell drugs, or are foreign born or Canada-born but of muslim, hindoo, etc, so-called religions which prefers violence and robbing instead of being peaceful as some radicals do not want peace !


It seems to me that the law made an exception, that you would maybe or will be hanged if you murdered a policeman on duty or something like that ! That was said in order to pass more freely that law, but no one was hanged since, unfortunarely !

But one policeman was killed on duty something like 5 years ago and the killer is now out on the streets, I think, I read because the murderer wanted his probation lately.

For career murderers, why not hang them ?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: karen1129 on November 19, 2008, 12:32:59 pm
Would be intersting to know the violent crime statistics for Canada versus the US.
I bet Canada's is lower.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Monika on November 19, 2008, 12:35:59 pm
Would be intersting to know the violent crime statistics for Canada versus the US.
I bet Canada's is lower.


it is
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Artiste on November 19, 2008, 12:38:28 pm
I think higher in Canada NOW!

There are murderers murdering every day in Toronto or so, but they are NOT counted, because they are not caught !
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Monika on November 19, 2008, 12:39:35 pm
I think higher in Canada NOW!

There are murderers murdering every day in Toronto or so, but they are NOT counted, because they are not caught !
I think they count the number of crimes commited, not the number of criminals
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Monika on November 19, 2008, 12:40:41 pm
Texas does...they even have an expres lane.
Does this mean that they dón´t have as many chances to appeal?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: karen1129 on November 19, 2008, 12:41:16 pm
it is

Yep !

I think it might have something to do with the easy access of guns here in the US.
And.... the fact that we really don't have very good services here for the mentally ill.
They just dump them back on the streets and wish for the best.


Of course you have the drug problem.  

It is a not an easy fix.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: karen1129 on November 19, 2008, 12:43:20 pm
I think higher in Canada NOW!

There are murderers murdering every day in Toronto or so, but they are NOT counted, because they are not caught !

There are plenty that are never caught here too.

I would think they do keep records of the number of people that were murdered there

I'm talking about the murder rate statistics...... not the conviction rate.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Monika on November 19, 2008, 12:43:47 pm
Yep !

I think it might have something to do with the easy access of guns here in the US.
And.... the fact that we really don't have very good services here for the mentally ill.
They just dump them back on the streets and wish for the best.


Of course you have the drug problem.  

It is a not an easy fix.


I agree. There are many mentally ill people out there that do not get the help they need.

No, not an easy fix at all, not at all.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: karen1129 on November 19, 2008, 12:45:12 pm
We actually disagree about something...wow!!!

I didn't say I am against the death penalty.  I do believe there are some really evil people out there that probably should be executed for their crimes.

I am saying..... I believe there have been innocent people put to death, so I think we need to be damn sure we got the right person.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: karen1129 on November 19, 2008, 12:46:39 pm
Does this mean that they dón´t have as many chances to appeal?

Oh no.  THey have many, many chances for appeals.  It can take 10 years or more before they actually execute them for that very reason.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Artiste on November 19, 2008, 12:47:17 pm
In Canada, now there are strange religions with their foreign ways, that destroy bodies they murdered, so police do not find those corpses, and so these cases are not counted !

There have been many documented TV show about that lately this year and last, showing that certain so-called religious persons kill their wives or daughter if they do not wear cloth over their face, etc, descriminating for all sorts of so-called reasons, even if they wife did not look at another man !


There is one case of a foreign MD that mother (and others) talks about often: he obviously killed his wife and is getting away with it !
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Monika on November 19, 2008, 12:48:24 pm
That's exactly what it means.


thanks for explaining.


Sounds like a way to ensure that perhaps more innocent will be executed. I just don´t understand the ways of the world sometimes.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: karen1129 on November 19, 2008, 12:48:40 pm
In Canada, now there are strange religions with their foreign ways, that destroy bodies they murdered, so police do not find those corpses, and so these cases are not counted !

There have been many documented TV show about that lately this year and last, showing that certain so-called religious persons kill their wives or daughter if they do not wear cloth over their face, etc, descriminating for all sorts of so-called reasons, even if they wife did not look at another man !


There is one case of a foreign MD that mother (and others) talks about often: he obviously killed his wife and is getting away with it !

HEy, that happens here too.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: karen1129 on November 19, 2008, 12:50:59 pm
THey do have appeals here in Texas.
People given the death penalty are rarely, if ever put to death without many
appeals from lawyers.

It can drag on for years.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Monika on November 19, 2008, 12:53:56 pm
The majority of felony criminals are not mentally ill, let's make that clear.  Mental Illness is a serious issue in this country, and there are many stereotypes that we suffer under, just like other marginalized factions of society.  Mentally ill does equal a criminal, or even a propensity for criminal behavior.
of course I agree that mentally ill does not equal a criminal. I have family members that have suffered from mental illnesses so I know.

And no, perhaps not a majority, but a substantial percentage are. Many people in the legal system also say that that percentage probably is higher than the official number due to insufficant examinations.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Artiste on November 19, 2008, 12:54:48 pm
Since you say:
       I believe there have been innocent people put to death, so I think we need to be damn sure we got the right person.
 
 
                
, I know of that, of some cases and I agree with you there.

Plus, I am finding that many lawyers and courts are also criminal run, because there is no justice there at all, because the judge and crown atterneys do not allow you to present facts in order to definately show that you are innocent ! And, more and more, there are demands for sheria laws in Canada and the USA and other democraties, that do not allow the innocent to be found not guilty !

It is now nearly impossible to find a good lawyers these days if you are innocent ! -  Did you know ?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Monika on November 19, 2008, 12:58:59 pm
In Canada, now there are strange religions with their foreign ways, that destroy bodies they murdered, so police do not find those corpses, and so these cases are not counted !

There have been many documented TV show about that lately this year and last, showing that certain so-called religious persons kill their wives or daughter if they do not wear cloth over their face, etc, descriminating for all sorts of so-called reasons, even if they wife did not look at another man !


There is one case of a foreign MD that mother (and others) talks about often: he obviously killed his wife and is getting away with it !
Aint´all religions strange? ;)

Destroying the bodies of the victims is hardly a "foreign way" though. That has been done in the US for ages by various people and groups, such as the mob.
Murder is horrible, not matter the reason behind it.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Artiste on November 19, 2008, 01:23:15 pm
I find it      "foreign way"               , because these murders are now in the thousands and done because of so-called religions - remember that such did NOT happen often before in the USA nor in Canada ! It is now common more and more !

Al Capone, did not murder because of religion(s) ! Right ?

I sure would like to find out the reasons why some or many prefer that that Greyhound murderer not be hanged ! Will any or many reply ?

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: karen1129 on November 19, 2008, 01:33:34 pm
I find it      "foreign way"               , because these murders are now in the thousands and done because of so-called religions - remember that such did NOT happen often before in the USA nor in Canada ! It is now common more and more !

Al Capone, did not murder because of religion(s) ! Right ?

I sure would like to find out the reasons why some or many prefer that that Greyhound murderer not be hanged ! Will any or many reply ?



Well, I don't know all the facts about the man, so I don't have an opinion.

Plus, they don't have the death penalty in Canada, so what's the point !!!
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on November 19, 2008, 07:44:56 pm
No, no, no

We haven´t executed anyone here in Sweden in over a hundred years, for which I´m very glad.

And to those who say that the death penelty is a mean to scare people off from killing each other; We don´t have a high crime rate here in Sweden even though we don´t have the death penalty.

Crimes are prevented through education, by a good social well-fare system and by trying to create a society where everyone can lead a decent life.


so, does Sweden resembles demographically and historically the US?  well, maybe parts of Minnesota does, but not much else.

logically you just can't make universal assumptions by comparing "apples" and "oranges".
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on November 19, 2008, 07:48:39 pm
Texas does...they even have an expres lane.

sadly, we don't have an express lane, it takes decades to execute the human debris that clogs our prison systems, meanwhile the tax payers continue to pay and pay for their legal appeals, meals, medical procedures and color tv's.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Artiste on November 19, 2008, 07:51:19 pm
Is that why Scandinavia now has more and more gangs selling drugs and murders galore even killing innocent citizens on the streets these days, because no more hangings in Sweden... so criminals, as in murderers, run these countries more and more ?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on November 19, 2008, 07:53:12 pm
Is that why Scandinavia now has more and more gangs selling drugs and murders galore even killing innocent citizens on the streets these days, because no more hangings in Sweden... so criminals, as in murderers, run these countries more and more ?

really, are drug gangs becoming a major problem in Scandia?

I don't hear much news from that part of the world, so that is interesting.

 Is is native Swedes and Norweigans who are the perps, or is it foreigners who are perping?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: karen1129 on November 19, 2008, 08:04:12 pm
sadly, we don't have an express lane, it takes decades to execute the human debris that clogs our prison systems, meanwhile the tax payers continue to pay and pay for their legal appeals, meals, medical procedures and color tv's.

My brother works for the Texas Prison system, and the inmates are not provided TV's by the state.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Artiste on November 19, 2008, 08:05:28 pm
Brokeplex and to all:

There was an USA/Canada/Scandinavia documentary last might, where foreign bike gangs are taking over Scandinavia where illegal drug trades are more and more prominent. They even rob that army arsenals, easily to do so as there is no one guarding them, and so use all sorts of military arms, even rockets, to fire upon people eating in restaurants, dancing in parties, at bars, etc.; killing innocent persons ! Police forces are not enough to capture them!

So, the al-Quida lovers don't know how such radical muslims are using gangs to sell drugs at those schools, and if a student does not buy illegal drugs, they beat them up or kill them !

Many anti-drug persons have been murdered in Holland so far... and elsewhere !

And so the murders (most) go on unchecked !
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on November 19, 2008, 08:09:04 pm
My brother works for the Texas Prison system, and the inmates are not provided TV's by the state.


sure they are, TDC has rec rooms that have wide screen TV's, which the perps not in lock down or solitary can use at designated times.

we need the prison farms back in operation! stamp those license plates and harvest that cotton!
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: karen1129 on November 19, 2008, 08:15:37 pm
sure they are, TDC has rec rooms that have wide screen TV's, which the perps not in lock down or solitary can use at designated times.

we need the prison farms back in operation! stamp those license plates and harvest that cotton!

No wide screens at the unit my brother is warden at.

Have you ever thought of running for public office?
You could fight for the reform that is needed in our
prison system. 
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: injest on November 19, 2008, 08:17:48 pm
I think work farms are a GREAT ideas....they treat those prisoners like royalty!
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on November 19, 2008, 08:17:51 pm
No wide screens at the unit my brother is warden at.

Have you ever thought of running for public office?
You could fight for the reform that is needed in our
prison system. 

I will run in 2012 only if:

1) you serve on my campaign committee
2) you get me some contributions

 :laugh:

talk to Shasta, she may know the story on the 2012 score.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: injest on November 19, 2008, 08:18:27 pm
I will run in 2012 only if:

1) you serve on my campaign committee
2) you get me some contributions

 :laugh:

talk to Shasta, she may know the story on the 2012 score.

do you promise to put those lazy people to work?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Monika on November 19, 2008, 08:18:43 pm
so, does Sweden resembles demographically and historically the US?  well, maybe parts of Minnesota does, but not much else.

logically you just can't make universal assumptions by comparing "apples" and "oranges".
I don´t know how much about Sweden you do know, but why you would compare it to Minnesota, I have no idea. Somewhat amusing, though.

What I was saying is that there isn´t a direct connection between death penalty and a lower crime rate, because then we would have a high crime rate (which we don´t)
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on November 19, 2008, 08:19:23 pm
do you promise to put those lazy people to work?

which lazy persons?

 there are so many!
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: injest on November 19, 2008, 08:20:15 pm
which lazy persons?

 there are so many!

the prisoners!! you said you would run for office and reform the system!
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: karen1129 on November 19, 2008, 08:20:48 pm
I will run in 2012 only if:

1) you serve on my campaign committee
2) you get me some contributions

 :laugh:

talk to Shasta, she may know the story on the 2012 score.

Sorry, politics are too ugly for me.



Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on November 19, 2008, 08:22:07 pm
I don´t know how about Sweden you do know, but why you would compare it to Minnesota, I have no idea.

What I was saying is that there isn´t a direct connection between death penalty and a lower crime rate, because then we would have a high crime rate (which we don´t)


demographically parts of MN closely resemble Sweden or Norway, due to heavy Scandinavian immigration and settlement in the last century and before.

yes, there is a connection between the death penalty and the ability to commit crimes.

an executed murderer has killed his or her last victim.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Monika on November 19, 2008, 08:23:08 pm
Is that why Scandinavia now has more and more gangs selling drugs and murders galore even killing innocent citizens on the streets these days, because no more hangings in Sweden... so criminals, as in murderers, run these countries more and more ?

I live here and I dont know what you are talking about, sorry.
We haven´t hung people here for a long time, so it´s not exactely something new
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on November 19, 2008, 08:23:28 pm
the prisoners!! you said you would run for office and reform the system!

no, I said that I would run for office if Karen would serve on my campaign committee!  :laugh:

not to split hairs of course, but that ability is a prerequisite for higher office.
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on November 19, 2008, 08:25:12 pm
Sorry, politics are too ugly for me.





I know, its the "laws and sausages" syndrome - I am very sympathetic and understanding of your revulsion from politics.

I can't stop myself from dabbling, I am just into self-punishment.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Monika on November 19, 2008, 08:26:07 pm
demographically parts of MN closely resemble Sweden or Norway, due to heavy Scandinavian immigration and settlement in the last century and before.

yes, there is a connection between the death penalty and the ability to commit crimes.

an executed murderer has killed his or her last victim.
they can´t do it if they are in prison either. And I have feeling where this discussion is going so I´ll butt out. I don´t want a repeat of what´s going on in other threads.

and I doubt that the demography in Minnesota is similar to the one inSweden any longer
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: karen1129 on November 19, 2008, 08:29:17 pm
I know, its the "laws and sausages" syndrome - I am very sympathetic and understanding of your revulsion from politics.

I can't stop myself from dabbling, I am just into self-punishment.  :laugh:

Well good luck !
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on November 19, 2008, 08:29:53 pm
I live here and I dont know what you are talking about, sorry.
We haven´t hung people here for a long time, so it´s not exactely something new

just responding to an earlier post, which read -

__________________________________________________________

buffymon
Brokeback Mountain Resident

 Online

Gender:
Posts: 174


Brokeback on my mind

 
  

   Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #353 on: Today at 06:47:41 AM »  

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No, no, no

We haven´t executed anyone here in Sweden in over a hundred years, for which I´m very glad.

And to those who say that the death penelty is a mean to scare people off from killing each other; We don´t have a high crime rate here in Sweden even though we don´t have the death penalty. Crimes are prevented through education, by a good social well-fare system and by trying to create a society where everyone can lead a decent life.
 
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Artiste on November 19, 2008, 08:30:27 pm
Why is Sweden letting murderers go free to walk on the streets and murder again and again ??
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: karen1129 on November 19, 2008, 08:31:53 pm
Why is Sweden letting murderers go free to walk on the streets and murder again and again ??

I guess you could say all countries have that issue.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on November 19, 2008, 08:32:40 pm
they can´t do it if they are in prison either. And I have feeling where this discussion is going so I´ll butt out. I don´t want a repeat of what´s going on in other threads.

and I doubt that the demography in Minnesota is similar to the one inSweden any longer

true, but if they have murdered, why keep them alive? by keeping them alive, isn't society making the statement that the perps life is more valuable than the victims life?

you shouldn't leave this thread, you and I will keep our exchanges civil - I promise!  :)
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Artiste on November 19, 2008, 08:33:14 pm
Yes, karen, and so why do we let murderers go back on the streets ? Can anyone say why ?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: brokeplex on November 19, 2008, 08:33:19 pm
I guess you could say all countries have that issue.



agreed! this is a problem everywhere!
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Artiste on November 19, 2008, 08:37:46 pm
But why? Why, don't good-gooders, think ahead of time, since they must eventually find out that murderers get back on the streets, for what do one think - kiss a butt or have their's kissed and then they cut your face up with knives ?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: karen1129 on November 19, 2008, 08:41:58 pm
Yes, karen, and so why do we let murderers go back on the streets ? Can anyone say why ?

Some do get parole, some don't.  Some get life without parole, some get the death penalty.
Guess you could say it is a case by case deal.

Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Artiste on November 19, 2008, 08:48:28 pm
But why let murderers out back on the streets ? Why do we allow that ?
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: karen1129 on November 19, 2008, 08:49:13 pm
But why let murderers out back on the streets ? Why do we allow that ?

I don't have the answer to that
Title: Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
Post by: Artiste on November 19, 2008, 09:02:28 pm
But these murderers get back into society and are known (most) to murder again, even killing strangers they don't know, some do it for fun !

Why would one want to be killed by them while we walk on the sidewalk, go into a store, be in a restaurant. and even come into one's home as they do too invade our homes??

And do we want our children murdered by them, or them enter our schools ?

The last school I had a rendez-vous with, had all the doors locked !

But, we still kiss butts of such murderers roaming around freely ? But we, innocent persons, have no freedom to protect ourselves from them ?