BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum
Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond => Brokeback Mountain Open Forum => Topic started by: serious crayons on October 27, 2007, 01:06:53 am
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What do you all think about this? What was its purpose in the short story -- symbolically, narratively, etc.? Did it achieve that/those purpose(s)? Why, aside from the obvious problems of filming it, do you think it wasn't included in the movie? Should it have been?
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What do you all think about this? What was its purpose in the short story -- symbolically, narratively, etc.? Did it achieve that/those purpose(s)? Why, aside from the obvious problems of filming it, do you think it wasn't included in the movie? Should it have been?
This is a good, and no-doubt, very complicated topic to bring up. It's late and I'm too sleepy to tackle this fully at the moment. But, the first thing that springs to mind about what purpose that episode serves in the story... is that it seems important to establish that both Jack and Ennis had really, really difficult relationships with their fathers. I'm not exactly sure what Proulx is trying to say with that gesture in the story. But, the abusive scene with Jack's father seems somehow related, if not exactly equivalent, to Ennis's Earl story and the inherently abusive act of forcing Ennis and KE to view Earl's body. At one basic level, perhaps the fact that they each had very difficult fathers gives Jack and Ennis something to bond over... even if it's sort of a tacit bonding.
I'm sure there are a million other meanings and ways to view this scene with Jack's father.
It also seems very significant that the filmmakers left this scene or any reference to it, out completely. Representing that scene would definitely have been hard, but I'm not sure that that's a great reason for leaving it out. I hope that's not really the reason they left it out (I would hope that the filmmakers would have some concrete reason/ explanation for leaving it out).... there at least could be ways of suggesting what was happening in the bathroom without actually showing it in a graphic way. The camera could have cut away... the incident could have been represented through sound and suggestion, etc. It would never have been a pleasant thing, but I think there are probably ways it could have been done. In a way, I do think it should have been in the film. It's a horrible scene/ detail, but it's so striking and leaves such an impression on the reader of the story, that I think it's a fairly major aspect of the story to leave out.
The major impact of leaving it out is that OMT doesn't seem quite as bad in the film compared to the story. And, I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing when it comes to the audience's understanding of Jack's background. We understand by the end how impoverished Jack was growing up, and we understand that his father was grouchy and cold, but the film audience really doesn't get a clear sense that Jack was a pretty severely abused child.
I'll be very interested to see how this discussion goes.
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This is a good, and no-doubt, very complicated topic to bring up. It's late and I'm too sleepy to tackle this fully at the moment. But, the first thing that springs to mind about what purpose that episode serves in the story... is that it seems important to establish that both Jack and Ennis had really, really difficult relationships with their fathers. I'm not exactly sure what Proulx is trying to say with that gesture in the story. But, the abusive scene with Jack's father seems somehow related, if not exactly equivalent, to Ennis's Earl story and the inherently abusive act of forcing Ennis and KE to view Earl's body. At one basic level, perhaps the fact that they each had very difficult fathers gives Jack and Ennis something to bond over... even if it's sort of a tacit bonding.
I'm sure there are a million other meanings and ways to view this scene with Jack's father.
It also seems very significant that the filmmakers left this scene or any reference to it, out completely. Representing that scene would definitely have been hard, but I'm not sure that that's a great reason for leaving it out. I hope that's not really the reason they left it out (I would hope that the filmmakers would have some concrete reason/ explanation for leaving it out).... there at least could be ways of suggesting what was happening in the bathroom without actually showing it in a graphic way. The camera could have cut away... the incident could have been represented through sound and suggestion, etc. It would never have been a pleasant thing, but I think there are probably ways it could have been done. In a way, I do think it should have been in the film. It's a horrible scene/ detail, but it's so striking and leaves such an impression on the reader of the story, that I think it's a fairly major aspect of the story to leave out.
The major impact of leaving it out is that OMT doesn't seem quite as bad in the film compared to the story. And, I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing when it comes to the audience's understanding of Jack's background. We understand by the end how impoverished Jack was growing up, and we understand that his father was grouchy and cold, but the film audience really doesn't get a clear sense that Jack was a pretty severely abused child.
I'll be very interested to see how this discussion goes.
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I am still confused about how you comment on parts of someone's post.
But anyway, I agree with the last part of your post where you state that people who see the movie won't really know how abusive Jack's father was towards him. (especially those who did not read the short story) I have even read that some people felt that OMT was not that bad. However, if the part about him urinating on young Jack was somehow depicted in the movie, there would have been no room to feel sorry for OMT.
We saw the extent of the abuse by Ennis' father when we saw how he and his brother were forced to look at Earl's mutilated body. But we didn't see the extent of the abuse that was suffered by Jack.
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On an initial, superficial level I think it was an unnecessary and rather dumb part of the story (similar to when Proulx goes ON and ON about the Ennis/K.E. fight thing. Why does she touch on most of the crucial details and plot points so quickly and dryly, and go on forever about that?) Anyway . . .
What was its purpose in the short story -- symbolically, narratively, etc.?
I think it parallels other symbols suggesting that Jack (or anyone in that environment with Jack's spirit) basically lived "under a cloud" or at constant risk.
His birthplace was Lightning Flat. (In a flat place, you are constantly vulnerable to lightning strikes — the wrath of God/Zeus/Fate).
His death involved being struck down. (Either from above by tire irons — or in a random "sudden burst" of the tire.)
In between, he lived his life dogged by uncommonly short karma and vulnerability to consequence. The low startle point horse throwing him. Comforting Ennis, only to get punched. His offering a beer to Jimbo resulting in a stinging and dangerous rejection.
His father urinating on him was a similar symbol (struck from above over issues relating to his penis/sexuality).
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Why, aside from the obvious problems of filming it, do you think it wasn't included in the movie? Should it have been?
Answering only to this part (for now).
Apparently, the decision to not include the abuse scene has been made pretty early by Ossana/McMurtry. It's not in the earlier scripts. In the 2003 one, another flashback of the Earl scene was planned directly before Ennis goes upstairs (same moment when in the book Ennis recalls the abuse). Same flashback as at the reunion, but this time, the camera moves closer to the body and it's not Earl's face - it's Jack's. God, luckily they did not include this :'(
This second flashback was to convent the sentence "So he knew it had been the tire iron" on film. The abuse scene was not planned to be filmed from early on.
Maybe they thought it would be too much and/or would deflect from the grief for Jack at this moment of the film: the deceased postcard, the phone call, OMT talking about the ranch neighbour, and then The Shirts. I tend to agree that it simply would have been too much at this point, but they still could have included it at another point of the movie.
Amanda and Delmardeb are right: it shows OMT and Jack's childhood in a whole different, horrid light. I remember my reaction when I read the story after seeing the movie. My very first reaction was OMG, poor Jack (and 'what an §#&%$§' about OMT), and thank God they didn't include this into the movie. I felt like they had spared us from witnessing this scene.
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I agree that it's nice, in a certain way, that we weren't subjected to experiencing that scene in the movie... of course it would be a dreadful scene to visualize or represent. But, I still don't think that's a great reason for leaving it out. Just because it's difficult and unpleasant doesn't mean it should have been omitted. There are lots of difficult and harsh things in the film as it is. The Earl scene is, of course, one thing that stands out as particularly harsh... and the filmmakers didn't even shy away from unpleasant things like Alma's reaction to being flipped over in bed... or the vision of Jack's possible-murder.
It does seem that this peeing scene would have the potential to really stand out and leave a big impression on the audience and I'm sure the film would seem much different if it was included. But, I think it would have stood out in an equivalent way to how it stands out for the reader of the story. I think anyone who reads the story will always vividly recall the descriptions of that memory for Jack.
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I agree that it's nice, in a certain way, that we weren't subjected to experiencing that scene in the movie... of course it would be a dreadful scene to visualize or represent. But, I still don't think that's a great reason for leaving it out. Just because it's difficult and unpleasant doesn't mean it should have been omitted. There are lots of difficult and harsh things in the film as it is. The Earl scene is, of course, one thing that stands out as particularly harsh... and the filmmakers didn't even shy away from unpleasant things like Alma's reaction to being flipped over in bed... or the vision of Jack's possible-murder.
Completely agreed. I've not made up my mind yet whether I think the scene should have been included in the movie or not. The above said was only my very first reaction.
But I think the filmmakers were right to not include it at this specific point of the movie. Which leaves me to contemplate where they could (should?) have included it....
Hell, they just should have shown all those trips in twenty years; plenty of possibilities ... ;)
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A lot of things we learn in the story during the motel scene were displaced and dispersed int the film for sure. But, you're right it's hard to think of exactly where the scene could have been included in the movie. Maybe one simple solution to the difficulty of actually filmming a visual representation of the peeing scene would be to have Jack simply re-tell the story verbally... actually as happens in the book.
Back to the function of the peeing scene... why do you think Proulx created such awful fathers for both of these characters? They're not just bad fathers in the story... they're pretty horrific fathers. I think the idea that it's something Jack and Ennis can bond over (to a certain extent) is one function... but is she trying to say something else with the way she represents fathers?
And how does this impact our understanding of the kinds of fathers that Jack and Ennis are themselves? Often in abusive families you hear about the pattern of abusiveness repeating itself across generations... and this definitely is not the case here with Jack and Ennis. Even if Jack didn't want kids (and I do think that's directly related to his awful relationship with his father), we get the sense that he's a pretty good father (especially movie-Jack). And, of course, Ennis is a devoted Dad too... and maybe to a greater extent than Jack.
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I had another random thought/ question about the whole "peeing" topic related to the film of BBM just now. This is a very long stretch and maybe grasping at straws... but, the filmmakers seemed to go out of their way to depict Jack himself peeing during the '63 summer. Do you think this was a very, very veiled/ distant reference to the peeing topic in the story?
??? :-\
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I remember reading in the short story Jack's relating to Ennis about the "peeing" on him when he was a little boy. Maybe the key to understanding is that OMT was using a "rough" way of teaching little Jack an important lesson. "When you have to pee, get to the toilet in time to not soil yourself". I'm not so sure that this is a conscious sign of abuse on the part of OMT. Its kinda crude, and a nasty way to teach a lesson. But I don't see it as anymore complicated than that. Rural folks in that era, could be quick and dirty in teaching life's lessons. And, pee is easily washed off.
That said, I also see the symbolic usage of the peeing, and the lightening, and the hate crime beating that killed Jack.
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I'm not so sure that this is a conscious sign of abuse on the part of OMT. Its kinda crude, and a nasty way to teach a lesson. But I don't see it as anymore complicated than that. Rural folks in that era, could be quick and dirty in teaching life's lessons. And, pee is easily washed off.
Maybe, and in that case it proved to be more abusive than OMT intended, since it was at that moment that he discovered he was crucially different from his father, and so could never get close to him. (There is also the question why he was cut when his father was not - whose idea was that? - though it's been suggested OMT was away at WW2 at the time, and mothers were commonly pressured by doctors, or not even asked).
Anyway, I'm reasonably sure it could not go where it was in the story, as Ennis goes upstairs, because the flow (of the story :-\ ) is too certain by then, but it could have gone much earlier when they were getting close, as a flashback from Jack telling Ennis about it.
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Wow, all of you present views which are very varied! I like that a lot!!
It seems to me that fathers are rarely treated as good ones in films, as neither are Ennis and Jack's in the BM film!! The peeing mention in Annie's story, as well as in the film, is exential in both, for me!! As a spectator to understand not only the times (before, during and after the sixties, but also how Ennis and Jack become to accept and love) each other, since each grew up nearly alone mentally in some ways, and that makes it surely a common thought for bonding!! I was always surprised and shocked that Ennis allows Jack to kiss him in that second tent scene of tenderness, and much more so when Ennis does kiss Jack!! Why? The pissing acts helped??
Hugs!
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(There is also the question why he was cut when his father was not - whose idea was that? - though it's been suggested OMT was away at WW2 at the time, and mothers were commonly pressured by doctors, or not even asked).
On the issue of Jack's circumcision and OMT remaining intact, I have a suspision which I shared on another thread that Jack was adopted as an infant by the Twists. Perhaps adopted out of necessity rather than choice. Perhaps an unwanted pregnancy occured and the product was Jack, the Twists had no children, and took in Jack. Maybe OMT began to resent Jack thru the years. I remember in the short story in the scene in OMT's kitchen, the narrator says something like: Ennis couldn't see much of Jack in either of them (the Twists).And, it tends to be the case that infant males are circumcized if the father is, left intact if the father is intact.
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I had another random thought/ question about the whole "peeing" topic related to the film of BBM just now. This is a very long stretch and maybe grasping at straws... but, the filmmakers seemed to go out of their way to depict Jack himself peeing during the '63 summer. Do you think this was a very, very veiled/ distant reference to the peeing topic in the story?
??? :-\
You could be right, Amanda. It seemed like the creators of the movie went a long ways to try to work details of the story into the movie and it's interesting to see how things got moved around. For instance, the whole prologue was moved to the end of the story, and the last day tussle back into chronological order.
You have a good point also, Artiste. It seems like Jack and Ennis were father figures to each other, another one of those lovable subtle details.
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I always took Jack's peeing in the movie as a reference to the night in the story when they sat around talking, "getting up every now and then to piss, firelight throwing a sparkle into the arched stream."
I wonder why we don't have a thread on body fluids -- pee, spit, tears, blood ... Or do we already?
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Thanks Front-Ranger!
Yes, in a way, each was a father to the other; consulting and consoling!! (Are those the words??)
I can understand the pissing scenes or mention, as manly somehow, in order to relate to each other: male to male!! (I have seen something like Jack's father did, in my life!!)
What puzzles me more is that Ennis and Jack are now fathers caring more now about their children?? !! Evidently so!! But I question this too?? !! Did the pissing scenes helped them become better men as more caring than their fathers??
Hugs!
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I always took Jack's peeing in the movie as a reference to the night in the story when they sat around talking, "getting up every now and then to piss, firelight throwing a sparkle into the arched stream."
Me too.
But I think Artiste may also have a point here. Very manly thing to do, the way Jack stands there, followed by the showing off of the belt buckle he won. Yes, I think male bonding also plays a role here.
I wonder why we don't have a thread on body fluids -- pee, spit, tears, blood ... Or do we already?
I think we do. Can't remember the title from the top of my head, but I think FRiend Lee started it. Maybe the tilte was something like "Talking about the nasty/unpleasant ... whatever". I'll look later for it.
Or was it "Blood, spit and tears" ot something similar to it? Dang, I almost remember it.
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Thanks Penthesilea!
I agree that Jack pissing in the BM film is important. One must remember too that Jack show off in a way his crotch with his belt buckle as he stands in front of Ennis who is sitting down and looking!! Is that in a way a manly way to introduce the idea of sex??
It seems so to me!! To you ??
Hugs!!
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From K:
I wonder why we don't have a thread on body fluids -- pee, spit, tears, blood ... Or do we already?
From me:
I think we do. Can't remember the title from the top of my head, but I think FRiend Lee started it. Maybe the tilte was something like "Talking about the nasty/unpleasant ... whatever". I'll look later for it.
Or was it "Blood, spit and tears" ot something similar to it? Dang, I almost remember it.
I found it! :) It is "Life and this movie are messy" and was started by Lee. That's Lee's introduction to the topic:
This is all about sweat, tears, blood, rain, snow, hail, and runny noses.
And here it is:
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,3130.0.html (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,3130.0.html)
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Oh, that's right! How could I forget? Thanks, Chrissi. That's a good thread.
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It seems to me that fathers are rarely treated as good ones in films, as neither are Ennis and Jack's in the BM film!!
Yes, good point Artiste. More often than not, characters are introduced with 'baggage' (such as unloving fathers) to explain their complicated natures and enrich the plot.
. . . but also how Ennis and Jack become to accept and love) each other, since each grew up nearly alone mentally in some ways, and that makes it surely a common thought for bonding!! I was always surprised and shocked that Ennis allows Jack to kiss him in that second tent scene of tenderness, and much more so when Ennis does kiss Jack!! Why? The pissing acts helped??
I wouldn't say the pissing all by itself. But it is the general lack of love and emotional abandonment by Jack and Ennis' fathers that make the second tent scene so believable and moving.
For a few moments, Jack even cradles Ennis and rocks him back and forth, like a little baby. And as out of character as it may seem for Ennis to accept such a form of affection, it's not so shocking given his his deprivation of that kind of love by his dad.
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Thanks LauraGigs!
I do not know why Jack rocks Ennis in the second tent scene. That rocking replaces Ennis' mother? In a way?
At least Jack does not piss on Ennis!! So... both lives are changing, are not like their fathers were/are that much??
So, this is part of the sexual revolution of the sixties: CARESSING??
Hugs!
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Thanks LauraGigs!
I do not know why Jack rocks Ennis in the second tent scene. That rocking replaces Ennis' mother? In a way?
At least Jack does not piss on Ennis!! So... both lives are changing, are not like their fathers were/are that much??
So, this is part of the sexual revolution of the sixties: CARESSING??
Hugs!
I think that it was just a display of normal human feeling. Ennis was showing that he cared for Jack, and Jack responded. It was important to Jack throughout his life because it was a moment when Jack felt loved! simple as that.......
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Thanks brokeplex!
But I do not think that Ennis would have hugged Jack then?? !!
Certainly not kissed Jack!! ??
That, to me, were 2 gestures, much too early in their relationtionship!! ?? To you too?
Sure Jack talks about his dad peeing on him... and Ennis shares thoughts too, but only few ones!!
Hugs!
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Thanks brokeplex!
But I do not think that Ennis would have hugged Jack then?? !!
Certainly not kissed Jack!! ??
That, to me, were 2 gestures, much too early in their relationtionship!! ?? To you too?
Sure Jack talks about his dad peeing on him... and Ennis shares thoughts too, but only few ones!!
Hugs!
These are two separate issues Artiste.
issue # 1) Ennis and Jack hugging and kissing - yes they hugged, and in the privacy of the tent they kissed.
issue #2) pissing , I think that way too much has been made of this pissing issue. Rural people piss on trees! no big deal. OMT pissed on young Jack to teach him to get his drawers down in time when he goes to the bathroom, nasty lesson, but IT WASHES OFF! lesson learned by Jack. zip down in time!!!!!
As far as the symbolism of the pissing, yes I see that. but, don't overdo it!
have a great day!
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Thanks brokeplex!
I agree with you on that pissing by OMT on Jack scene as teaching guide... in a way then!
However, Ennis hugging Jack... that so early in their relationship, I question that!!
And utmostly question Ennis ever kissing back Jack!! I never seen an Ennis kiss me... in the past nor another gay man!!
Jack just got lucky, not only by being pissed upon by his dad, but surely by hugging Ennis, and unbelievably got a kiss back from Ennis?? !! Wow, sure would like a gay man tell me his real story to find if that ever happenned in his own life?? !!
Hugs!!
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Thanks brokeplex!
I agree with you on that pissing by OMT on Jack scene as teaching guide... in a way then!
However, Ennis hugging Jack... that so early in their relationship, I question that!!
And utmostly question Ennis ever kissing back Jack!! I never seen an Ennis kiss me... in the past nor another gay man!!
Jack just got lucky, not only by being pissed upon by his dad, but surely by hugging Ennis, and unbelievably got a kiss back from Ennis?? !! Wow, sure would like a gay man tell me his real story to find if that ever happenned in his own life?? !!
Hugs!!
Artiste, look at the movie again. Look first at the scene where the boys sit together on the ground atop the grazing slopes of the mountain and declare to each other that "I'm not Queer". "Well, I'm not either." "Its nobodys business but ours". "Its a one shot thing we got going here". This is what I call the "Denial Scene",very, very important scene to watch in order to understand the boys and how their lives would unfold over the next 20 years.
In the next scene, the "Romantic Scene" takes place by the dazzling firelight, with Ennis shly enters into the tent. Jack takes him, hugs him, kisses him, and then gets on top of him and continues to kiss him. In his mind Ennis is far away, in denial that it is Jack who is arousing him, but Ennis is physically there.
So, you want a gay man to tell you that he has been hugged and kissed under such circumstances by a "straight man" in deep denial? OK, I'm as GAY, and similar scenarios have worked their way into my life several times. Are you satisfied now?
Artiste, I love the way you make me think about and justify my observations about the movie. You are a great teacher, using your relentless "Socratic" method. Have you ever been a teacher or a trainer? You would make a great one!
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Thanks very much brokeplex!
It is true then as in the BM movie, and even to-day that fathers seem to be bad ones towards their gay son(s) in movies!! ??
Am sure that many fathers do act like pissing on their son(s) because they think he or they are gay?? !! Even to-day! Maybe even murder?
Brokeplex: In the sixties and even before, all gay men said so for fear of death or being placed in an mental place: I'm not queer!! Any difference to-day in our democratic countries?
In islamic countries and others... they murder gays to-day!! In some others countries, they place you (us gay men) in prison or in a mental institution for life, or beat you up... are some reports! Maybe the pissing scene talked about is not that uncommon in those countries nor in ours these days??
Hugs!
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Thanks very much brokeplex!
It is true then as in the BM movie, and even to-day that fathers seem to be bad ones towards their gay son(s) in movies!! ??
Am sure that many fathers do act like pissing on their son(s) because they think he or they are gay?? !! Even to-day! Maybe even murder?
Brokeplex: In the sixties and even before, all gay men said so for fear of death or being placed in an mental place: I'm not queer!! Any difference to-day in our democratic countries?
In islamic countries and others... they murder gays to-day!! In some others countries, they place you (us gay men) in prison or in a mental institution for life, or beat you up... are some reports! Maybe the pissing scene talked about is not that uncommon in those countries nor in ours these days??
Hugs!
I see your point about the symbolic meaning of "pissing" to show contempt. The symbolic pissing of OMT on little Jack shows his alienation from his son. And you are correct about the murder of gay men in Islamic countries. Just last week, one of the Grand Poo-bahs in the leadership in Iran stated in an official state address that all gay Iranian men should be hanged until dead. This is a huge human rights issue, and I was delighted to see that the President of Columbia University stated this concern right in the face of the current President of Iran when he paid a visit to Columbia University last month.
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Thanks brokeplex!
Wow, how happy that I am, not the only one talking about the evils of the islamic like in Iran.
And I hug that President of Colombia University to say that then!
More needs to be said to save lives there as in Iran and here in our countries too!! Ths pissing scenes are still here surely and likewise ones like killing ones too unfortunately in our countries, but mass murder in islamic and other such areas are to be noted and fought for freedom for gays!! Right?
Hugs!
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Thanks brokeplex!
Wow, how happy that I am, not the only one talking about the evils of the islamic like in Iran.
And I hug that President of Colombia University to say that then!
More needs to be said to save lives there as in Iran and here in our countries too!! Ths pissing scenes are still here surely and likewise ones like killing ones too unfortunately in our countries, but mass murder in islamic and other such areas are to be noted and fought for freedom for gays!! Right?
Hugs!
We should not close our eyes to the brutality of regimes like Iran. We should also remember that there are hundreds of millions of peaceful Muslims who just want to be left alone to practice their faith and live their lives. These peaceful Muslims live amoung us in all of the Western countries. Although after 911 I am very much afraid of radical Islamic Fascists, I am also happy to see new Islamic neighbors here in N Texas. The proliferation of Lebanese restaurants alone is delightful. Seeing Muslims in the DFW area causes me no concern at all, they are without a doubt some of the most polite soft-spoken people I have met - I don't see how they stand us loud profane Texans!
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Hi brokeplex!
It remains a fight for civil rights that many men in islamic countries are killed because they are gay, like in some of ours, but too many such islam governments murder gays in a row! We must all be fighting for such gays there!! How?? Since you are welcoming islamics your way, maybe you could find out how to educate them for pro-gay rights? A suggestion.
Lebanese restauranteurs were utmostly popular in the capital of Canada as persons lined up to eat there, but they were sending much $ for war!
It remains how to find peaceful islamics in our countries??
The fact of OMT pissing on Jack remains a hardship for many children in our own xcountries, but such men do not murder usually their own child if that youngster is thought to be gay!! But islam wants gays murdered! Much remains to be said...
hugs!
Hugs!
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Hi brokeplex!
It remains a fight for civil rights that many men in islamic countries are killed because they are gay, like in some of ours, but too many such islam governments murder gays in a row! We must all be fighting for such gays there!! How?? Since you are welcoming islamics your way, maybe you could find out how to educate them for pro-gay rights? A suggestion.
Lebanese restauranteurs were utmostly popular in the capital of Canada as persons lined up to eat there, but they were sending much $ for war!
It remains how to find peaceful islamics in our countries??
The fact of OMT pissing on Jack remains a hardship for many children in our own xcountries, but such men do not murder usually their own child if that youngster is thought to be gay!! But islam wants gays murdered! Much remains to be said...
hugs!
Hugs!
Artiste, homophobic violence is not just a part of Islamic countries. It has been alive and well in the good old USA for too long. Do me a favor, go back and re-read the two posts I posted on "Introduce Yourself". As I wrote earlier, in the 1980's when my mother and I discussed my love for Chris, she told me that Chris's mother, my father and her all together discussed the relationship that was developing between Chris and myself way back in the early 1970's when we were both still in high school. They all 3 agreed to keep very quiet about this because they were afraid of the reaction of Chris's father. When I go home to tend to my parent's graves and Chris's grave I always stop and put flowers on Chris's mother's grave. I loved her like a second mother. Her husband,Chris's father,a Christian man prominent in his church and his community, died many years before her, and is buried right next to her. No one tends to his grave. And, after I clean the area around Chris's mother's grave and think of the wonderful person she was, I get up and walk right on by his father's grave without a word. I worked for so many years on the anger I continue to feel towards this man, I don't know if I will ever entirely get over my anger over the damage that he did to Chris's life and by extension also to my life.
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Thanks brokeplex!
I feel for you preparing those graves of loved ones!
What can I say about Chris' father? I guess that that father did a similar thing that OMT did, by being too stern?
May you continue to help these (graves and souls), as your angelic placement of flowers and care are lovable devotions!!
That reminds me... that I do not go that often to see father's grave! You want to know about that?
Hugs!
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Thanks brokeplex!
I feel for you preparing those graves of loved ones!
What can I say about Chris' father? I guess that that father did a similar thing that OMT did, by being too stern?
May you continue to help these (graves and souls), as your angelic placement of flowers and care are lovable devotions!!
That reminds me... that I do not go that often to see father's grave! You want to know about that?
Hugs!
Thankyou for your kind words. Sometimes I forget how much healing I have needed until I write about it. I can talk to D.L. only so much, I hold back because I don't wish to burden our relationship with all of my baggage. Please tell us about your relationship with your father.
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Thanks brokeplex!
Since you are asking about my relationship with my father, it was at times like Jack's, and maybe at others like Ennis but to a less degree.
Since this is an OMT peeing on Jack subject, my father did something similar as when we did hunt moose since we often starved nearly, he liked to show that animal big penis!
Obviously, I was too shy to say something, or should I have not been so?
Hugs!
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Thanks brokeplex!
Since you are asking about my relationship with my father, it was at times like Jack's, and maybe at others like Ennis but to a less degree.
Since this is an OMT peeing on Jack subject, my father did something similar as when we did hunt moose since we often starved nearly, he liked to show that animal big penis!
Obviously, I was too shy to say something, or should I have not been so?
Hugs!
are you saying he showed you the moose's penis or his penis?
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Thanks brokeplex!
It was the moose one!
Of course, men with us as well as all , did do peeing in those woods. Do I remember that?
Maybe OMT was also a hunter since that peeing thin thing was something?
Hugs!
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Thanks brokeplex!
It was the moose one!
Of course, men with us as well as all , did do peeing in those woods. Do I remember that?
Maybe OMT was also a hunter since that peeing thin thing was something?
Hugs!
Artiste, Why was the moose's Mr Dick displayed? Was it a symbolic victory over the beast?
As far as pissing in the woods, I am sure that most males (and some females) have without a second thought voided under such circumstances. It was a cruel act on the part of OMT to piss on Jack.
TampaTalon^">
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As far as pissing in the woods, I am sure that most males (and some females) have without a second thought voided under such circumstances. It was a cruel act on the part of OMT to piss on Jack.
TampaTalon^">
Well, it sure was nasty and stupid. It certainly isn't something that I would encourage fathers to do to their sons! But, lets judge OMT within the context of his times, and his environment, not by our times and our sensibilities. I don't think it was cruel. It was an effective way to make damn sure that little Jack always remembered to zip down before he peed. And, he remembered from then on.
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Well, it sure was nasty and stupid. It certainly isn't something that I would encourage fathers to do to their sons! But, lets judge OMT within the context of his times, and his environment, not by our times and our sensibilities. I don't think it was cruel. It was an effective way to make damn sure that little Jack always remembered to zip down before he peed. And, he remembered from then on.
Maybe, In my time about about 10 years later than Jack would have been peed on, my old man
beat me so bad as a five year old I passed out. Strange thing how we always forgive.
TampaTalon^">
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Maybe, In my time about about 10 years later than Jack would have been peed on, my old man
beat me so bad as a five year old I passed out. Strange thing how we always forgive.
TampaTalon^">
My God that is horrible Tampa! There is no excuse for that type of physical cruelty to children!
These memories must be something that you have deal with thru your life. I feel more and more each day so thankful having loving understanding parents. Chris, the first love of my life, had a father who was prone to temper tantrums. I know that mentally scarred Chris, and may have made the relationship that I wanted with Chris impossible. I still have anger in my heart for that man, who hurt Chris. I don't think I will ever fully get over what he did to Chris. I don't know how you are able to work thru such a memory in your life. You have shown great strength in becoming a survivor!
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That is wonderful to read Tampa!
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Thanks tampatalon, and thanks brokeplex!!
You say tampatalon: Brokeplex, Thanks. He may have been heavy handed and quick tempered when it came to
discipline for my childhood transgressions but fortunately he gave me support where it counted the most. He did understand for his time period that queer (would have been his terminolgy) was something he could not change.He did the best he could talking me through the heartache of my breakup with my first boyfriend and stuff like that in my teenage years. I know that must have been difficult for him, for this was something slightly beyond his grasp but he always faithfully performed what he considered his fatherly duties. He was always there when I needed him.
May his soul Rest in Peace
My I say that I am happy that you reveal that to us!! I had a similar event! I had fallen in love with a new neighbour who was slightly older that I was, as older(?) teenagers. We went out with girls, even together but no sex nor kissing!! I always thought him to be gay, as I slept even in his small bed with him!! But when I tried my move in a cinema, I got refused! So, after that, he refrained from seeing me! That was over or near 50 yeays ago, in the sixties! Guess we were Ennis and Jack (but no sex nor no kiss, unfortunately)!! So I tried to drink... and I saw that mother and father knew about it... my first romance like flirt!! My parents did the best they could to consull me, and not worth it for becoming an alcoholic because of that they said! Now that father past away, I wonder if I should have talk with him about that?
So, we, us all gay men, do have similar experiences, we need to share and to treasure and be helped with??
Hugs!
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Thanks tampatalon, and thanks brokeplex!!
You say tampatalon: Brokeplex, Thanks. He may have been heavy handed and quick tempered when it came to
discipline for my childhood transgressions but fortunately he gave me support where it counted the most. He did understand for his time period that queer (would have been his terminolgy) was something he could not change.He did the best he could talking me through the heartache of my breakup with my first boyfriend and stuff like that in my teenage years. I know that must have been difficult for him, for this was something slightly beyond his grasp but he always faithfully performed what he considered his fatherly duties. He was always there when I needed him.
May his soul Rest in Peace
My I say that I am happy that you reveal that to us!! I had a similar event! I had fallen in love with a new neighbour who was slightly older that I was, as older(?) teenagers. We went out with girls, even together but no sex nor kissing!! I always thought him to be gay, as I slept even in his small bed with him!! But when I tried my move in a cinema, I got refused! So, after that, he refrained from seeing me! That was over or near 50 yeays ago, in the sixties! Guess we were Ennis and Jack (but no sex nor no kiss, unfortunately)!! So I tried to drink... and I saw that mother and father knew about it... my first romance like flirt!! My parents did the best they could to consull me, and not worth it for becoming an alcoholic because of that they said! Now that father past away, I wonder if I should have talk with him about that?
So, we, us all gay men, do have similar experiences, we need to share and to treasure and be helped with??
Hugs!
we all of us have many regret over the roads not taken........move forward.
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Thanks brokeplex!
In order to move forward, one must talk about it! That helps, right?
Plus, when one writes about it, it helps much more. It helps others too?
In our countries that peeing is happening, to-day! Plus in others such as in the arabs, africans, south americans, etc., worst is there too!!
Hugs!