BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum

Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond => Brokeback Mountain Open Forum => Topic started by: Penthesilea on November 05, 2007, 08:09:52 am

Title: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: Penthesilea on November 05, 2007, 08:09:52 am
Happy new week, BetterMostians  :D,

hope you all had a weekend just to your own taste: relaxing, adventurous, socializing - whatever suits you.

This week, I'd like to take a step back and have a critical look not only at the movie/story itself, but also at our own view of it, especially regarding all those discussions about significant (?) details:

Is a cigar just a cigar?

What is your conception regarding the movie's underlying motifs, symbolism and unspoken truths?


Are there occasions when you think 'a cigar is just a cigar', meaning do you think people sometimes overinterpret the smallest detail? Or do you think one can't be observant enough because both, Annie Proulx and Ang Lee put so much thought into the smallest word/single picture? Are there specific things discussed, which you just can't buy?
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on November 05, 2007, 03:25:31 pm
Are there occasions when you think 'a cigar is just a cigar', meaning do you think people sometimes overinterpret the smallest detail?

Yes, but I'm not going to get any more specific than that. I'm not interested in arguing about it, and I don't want to risk causing hard feelings.  :-\
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: Brown Eyes on November 05, 2007, 04:20:47 pm
LOL, I thought this was going to be a question about all the uses of cigarettes in BBM!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Especially in the scene where Jack and Randall are on the bench... Very apropos to this question I think.
:)





Anyway, during my recent get-together with Pipedream ( :D :D :D) we found ourselves talking about the religious symbolism in BBM... an old topic I realize... but she managed to point out at least two details that I never noticed before! I promised her that I'd start a new thread on the topic of religious symbols in Open Forum.  So, look for that soon.

I really am one to believe that there's a TON going on in Brokeback with regard to symbols (no big surprise to anyone who knows me here).  And, often the symbols in the film are reinforced by Proulx's choice of language and detail in the story story too. 

My three "favorite" symbols are the wind, the black/white hat situation, and the yin and yang (I now where an old yin and yang ring again in honor of this symbol... it's a goofy old ring that I've had since I was 16 when I went though a bit of a hippy phase... actually it's sort of pretty).
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: jstephens9 on November 05, 2007, 07:26:39 pm
Yes, but I'm not going to get any more specific than that. I'm not interested in arguing about it, and I don't want to risk causing hard feelings.  :-\

Jeff, I remember us talking about this very topic the last night we were in Denver  :) That was a fun time.

Jack
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: jstephens9 on November 05, 2007, 07:33:48 pm
My three "favorite" symbols are the wind, the black/white hat situation, and the yin and yang (I now where an old yin and yang ring agai in honor of this symbol... it's a goofy old ring that I've had since I was 16 when I went though a bit of a hippy phase... actually it's sort of pretty).


That's funny you mention the wind. I had read something about the wind symbol since I watched the one scene yesterday of the last night on the mountain. I thought about the wind when Ennis was in the alley after Jack left. I noticed it more since I had read about it.
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: Brown Eyes on November 05, 2007, 08:23:38 pm
That's funny you mention the wind. I had read something about the wind symbol since I watched the one scene yesterday of the last night on the mountain. I thought about the wind when Ennis was in the alley after Jack left. I noticed it more since I had read about it.

Awwww... don't get me started on the wind!  There are soooo many great examples.  And, yes the alley when Ennis has the dry-heaves is a great example of the wind kicking up at an important moment.  It actually starts a bit earlier when the two guys are still standing near Jack's old truck.  You'll notice that just before Jack gives up and gets into his truck the wind becomes really noticeable.

Here are a few of the other great wind moments from the film!  :D

- The most clear-cut is of course when Aguirre says "look what the wind blew in" when Jack comes to ask for a job the next summer.  Of course, we also see the fan above Aguirre's head start spinning as Jack opens the door to enter the trailer.  I think this enunciation by Aguirre is meant to make the audience take clear notice of the importance of the wind-and-Jack.

- The morning after TS1... when Ennis hops on his horse and leave Jack standing there the wind really kicks up as Jack watches Ennis go.  And, then the wind seems to follow Ennis up the mountain... in this case even the sound effect is strong... It seems to echo Jack's anxiety or hurt, etc. at Ennis's behavior on this "morning after."

- Right before Ennis receives Jack's first postcard, we see him pull into his parking spot behind the laundromat and the hot-air vent kicks on strongly... almost as a clue that the postcard is waiting for Ennis.  And, then, when Jack arrives right before the reunion kiss you see the wind blowing behind him as Ennis is looking down at him from the balcony.  There's some debris on the road that blows to accentuate this wind effect (there's also very similar debris blowing when Jack and Ennis are about to part at the end of the '63 summer... when they're both standing next to Jack's truck).

-then of course there's the giant, crazy fan in Ennis's trailer at the end that sits right next to Junior during their big, important conversation.

-there are also really interesting ways to consider the importance of air in the Lightning Flat scene...


And, then in the story... wind is mentioned in many, many significant places.

Here are two great examples:

-The very first 2 lines of the story... followed by the entirety of the italicized prologue:
"Ennis Del Mar wakes before five, wind rocking the trailer, hissing in around the aluminum door and window frames.  The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft..."

-then later when Jack and Ennis are coming down from the mountain:
"The mountain boiled with demonic energy, glazed with flickering broken-cloud light, the wind combed the grass and drew from the damaged krummholz and slit rock a bestial drone."


This little passage about the wind against the mountain making a kind of music or sound is REALLY profound when you think about Jack's trademark love of playing the harmonica (obviously a wind instrument).  And... it's even more interesting if you think about the possibility that if Jack is represented by the wind/air then Ennis is represented by the earth/mountain.

 :D :D :D :D :D 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

I think it's not at all too far fetched to really think about these metaphors hard and with some seriousness, especially with the film since the filmmakers decided to give the whole story the tag-line; "love is a force of nature."

 :D

Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: belbbmfan on November 07, 2007, 08:09:41 am
Slightly off topic...  :)  I can't tell you how real it felt when we were in Cowley (Signal in the movie) in Alberta and you could feel, see and hear the wind everywhere. The tree in front of Aquirre's trailer was swaying in the wind just like when Jack's truck rolled in. Amazing.

(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m312/Belbbmfan/P1010315.jpg)


Okay, back to the symbolisms! I always liked the fact that you noticed the sign on the Riverton apartment which said 'Entrance round the back' (or something along those lines) Amanda. I'm sure that was no mistake made by the production team...  ::)  ;D
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: Front-Ranger on November 07, 2007, 05:52:05 pm
Do I think that people sometimes overinterpret the symbols. Yes, sometimes.

That said, I still think both Ang Lee and Annie Proulx deliberately use symbolism in their interpretations of the story. I asked Annie Proulx point blank about this over a year ago and she said that she does expect people to bring their knowledge of myths, the Bible, etc. to the story because "there just isn't room to spell it out."

And Ang Lee has said that he uses colors, props, etc. to say cinematically what can't be said, to illustrate things like "he thought he could paw the white out of the moon."

By reading other Proulx books and seeing other Lee movies, you can see where these symbols are used elsewhere, they are the tools of the storyteller's art.
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: TOoP/Bruce on November 07, 2007, 07:44:41 pm
And Ang Lee has said that he uses colors, props, etc. to say cinematically what can't be said, to illustrate things like "he thought he could paw the white out of the moon."

By reading other Proulx books and seeing other Lee movies, you can see where these symbols are used elsewhere, they are the tools of the storyteller's art.


I am going to make another Hitchcock comparison here. 

Jack's wearing of red (a Chinese wedding color, the color of wealth, and the color of blood) when he reunites with Ennis after 4 years, can be contrasted with the drab and greyed down color palette of his wardrobe in the post-divorce scene.  Why is this another Hitchcock connection?  Because Hitchcock uses a very similar device in the transformation of Grace Kelly's wardrobe in "Dial M for Murder" as she transforms from an elegant socialite to a person suspected of murder.  It is a deliberate dramatic choice clearly worked out between the director and the wardrobe department to underscore what is happening between the characters on the screen.

Whether or not every object in the film was intended to carry symbolic weight is something only the writers and the creative people behind the film can answer, but what is interesting to me is that the film seems to be so suffused with potential symbolic portent and tragic inevitability, that many people feel almost everything in it should be examined for symbolic potential. 

It is in the desire to complete the missing connections in the film, where we complete the film in our own minds.
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: SFEnnisSF on November 07, 2007, 07:56:13 pm
I wonder what Monica and Bill's thoughts are on whether a cigar is just a cigar?















 :laugh:  I'm so sorry, I couldn't resist.
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: Brown Eyes on November 07, 2007, 09:44:11 pm
I wonder what Monica and Bill's thoughts are on whether a cigar is just a cigar?















 :laugh:  I'm so sorry, I couldn't resist.


I still think this could easily morph into a discussion on the use of cigarettes in BBM.  ;D

Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: serious crayons on November 09, 2007, 03:18:32 pm
I have occasionally read really in-depth symbolism analysis that made me think, "Oh, come on, now you're getting carried away." But probably 8 out of 10 of those times, as I gave it further thought or explored the ideas more carefully, I would realize they had merit.

Most people must recognize that the movie and story are chock-full of symbolic references. So to shrug off any particular one seems short-sighted. If the wind can represent Jack, and Jack's bedroom can represent the campsite, and the dead sheep can represent this and beans can represent that and so on ... Then who's to say snow can't represent something? Or water? Or the color red? Or the little horses? Or Aguirre's conversation on the phone?

I laughed at FRont-Ranger's bucket thread when I first saw it! And after I read it, I wasn't laughing ...  8)

So now I'd much rather give those possibilities a chance. And when I see someone automatically dismiss some idea as reading too much into something, or protest that some line that I think has subtextual meaning is "just there to advance the plot" ... well, I feel like that person is missing out on some really interesting aspects of the movie.


Can anybody think of specific ideas they've heard mentioned that they thought were ridiculous? Or maybe ideas that they initially thought were ridiculous but eventually came to agree with?

Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: Penthesilea on November 09, 2007, 03:56:19 pm
Can anybody think of specific ideas they've heard mentioned that they thought were ridiculous? Or maybe ideas that they initially thought were ridiculous but eventually came to agree with?

Not ridiculous, but questionable and far streched.

The number 17. Brokeback Mountain has 17 letters. 1+7=8 --> August is the eighth month of the year, and August is also the month they miss twice. There were more examples around the number 17.
And: we know the number was chosen deliberately by someone for some reason because it already appears in earlier scripts.

On the other side: whoever it was could have chosen the number 17 for any personal reason. It may have been his/her wedding day or birthday.

I'm still sceptic about the number 17. At most I could imagine it to be a bookend/reference/reminder of the fact that they missed August twice and now it's too late. They never will have another August, or any other month for that matter :(.
But why should it be important that the title has 17 letters? How should this be connected to the number of Ennis's mailbox?  ???

But I have learned much too far about this movie in the last one and a half years to dismiss the idea flatly.
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: serious crayons on November 09, 2007, 06:43:32 pm
Good example. I've never heard any explanation of the 17 that I found fully satisfying. And yet it gets so much attention from the camera, it seems like it must mean something.

Another one I heard is that Lureen's score at the rodeo is 16.9, so Ennis comes out just ahead of her. But again, what's the point?

The explanation I like best was Mikaela's, I think: that 1 plus 7 equals 8, and 8 on its side is the symbol for infinity. That's poetic, though I don't know if that's necessarily what the filmmakers had in mind.

Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: Brown Eyes on November 09, 2007, 09:20:46 pm

I agree that the numbers are among the hardest things in the movie to figure out.  Definitely 17 is one of them... but also the number 3.  Katherine (and other old imdb-ers) do you remember that really funny old thread at imdb (long, long ago) that got way out of hand with people trying to connect WAY too much to the number 3?  I think the number 17 eventually got dragged into that topic too somehow.  But, there are definitely a lot of noticeable 3's in the movie too.  Some seem significant (like Aguirre's "no, no, no") and some seem a bit odd like Jack's reference to Lureen working hard over Thanksgiving dinner for a whole 3 hours  ( :laugh: ). 

In general, I think with the numbers, there's a potential to take things too far.

With the nature symbols (and certain other categories of symbolism), I think it's much easier to convincingly analyze them in pretty serious depth.  I think the emphasis on nature as an overt emphasis in the film and most-definitely in Proulx's writing actually make an analysis of at least some symbolism related to nature essential to understanding BBM.
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: Dal on November 13, 2007, 02:13:44 am
I still think this could easily morph into a discussion on the use of cigarettes in BBM.  ;D
Why not?  ;) "Joe Aguirre, wavy hair the color of cigarette ash and parted down the middle," etc.  Ashes parted down the middle is what will eventually become of poor Jack.
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: TOoP/Bruce on November 13, 2007, 02:22:19 am
Why not?  ;) "Joe Aguirre, wavy hair the color of cigarette ash and parted down the middle," etc.  Ashes parted down the middle is what will eventually become of poor Jack.

And sometimes a Cigarbutt is just a horse named Cigarbutt...

(unless someone can argue that it isn't...)
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: Dal on November 13, 2007, 02:55:58 am
I think that Cigar Butt is just representing Ennis's wishful thinking!
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: serious crayons on November 13, 2007, 10:37:04 am
Why not?  ;) "Joe Aguirre, wavy hair the color of cigarette ash and parted down the middle," etc.  Ashes parted down the middle is what will eventually become of poor Jack.

Wow, great observation, Dal! I'd never noticed that.

Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: Artiste on November 13, 2007, 10:50:25 am
In that photo, we look at someone taking a photo... who is it??

And who took that photo of that man there too?

And who is looking in part in the right corner of that photo?

May I ask?

Hugs!!!
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: Dal on November 13, 2007, 03:05:39 pm
Wow, great observation, Dal!
-sheepish- Too bad it's not mine.... can't remember who said that to me.
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: Brown Eyes on November 13, 2007, 04:52:07 pm
More on cigarettes... of course one of the first things we notice about Ennis in the film is that he only smokes a portion of his cigarette and saves the rest in his pocket.

Yup... cigarettes are definitely a running theme.

And, I agree that the ashes observation in relation to Jack is very good.
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: Artiste on November 13, 2007, 05:36:14 pm
Any cigar in the BM film?

In Annie's story?

Hugs!
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: LauraGigs on December 16, 2007, 12:29:00 am
Shit, I liked the other (newer) thread because it was *clean*.

Sigh . . .
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: injest on December 16, 2007, 12:30:55 am
sorry, Laura but it was causing hard feelings. I was only trying to have a little fun this weekend...didn't mean to step on toes.
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: serious crayons on December 16, 2007, 11:38:04 am
I don't think it was hard feelings, as in, anybody was actually hurt or angry. Sometimes I like the "clean" ones, too. But aren't we supposed to try to minimize thread repetition?  ???  :)

Does anybody mind if I merge the old thread onto this one?

I don't think this one has really gotten very deeply into the question Jess raised: we as viewers may interpret the subtexts and hidden meanings however we like, but what makes us think Ang Lee and/or Annie Proulx intended those meanings to be there?

Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: injest on December 16, 2007, 11:50:25 am
I would rather you didnt Katherine. I was just trying to get people giggling and it came off wrong. I should stick to doing what I do....just goofing around in Anything Goes.

 :)
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: Front-Ranger on December 16, 2007, 12:24:43 pm
I should stick to doing what I do....just goofing around in Anything Goes.

 :)

Hey, don't gloss over Our Daily Thoughts. It has really blossomed under your shepherding. And also, I love your new topic, "I Love" on Anything Goes.

I should probably put something on topic here. The meanings are there but we also are exhorted to add our own meanings. Annie Proulx sayeth, "It is my feeling that a story is not finished until it is read, and that the reader finishes it through his or her life experience, prejudices, world view and thoughts."
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: Front-Ranger on December 22, 2007, 10:27:55 am
Four books have helped me in this regard. First, The Encyclopedia of Symbols, a reference book which I consult in the library but is not available for checkout. Secondly, Man and His Symbols, by Carl Jung. This is the definitive book on the subject. Also, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon: Portrait of a Film discusses the symbolism of that movie (some of which was used in BBM as well) and also has an introduction by Ang Lee discussing his spiritual beliefs. Finally, Chinese Mythology by Anthony Christie is also illuminating. I also have a small handbook on Chinese Symbolism which I carried in my purse on trips to the theater to see BBM!

Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: serious crayons on January 03, 2008, 02:01:13 am
Secondly, Man and His Symbols, by Carl Jung. This is the definitive book on the subject.

I haven't read the others, but I own and love this one. What a fascinating concept, that humans across cultures are hardwired to recognize similar particular symbols in a deeply emotional and often subconscious way!

Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 03, 2008, 12:15:59 pm
Four books have helped me in this regard. First, The Encyclopedia of Symbols, a reference book which I consult in the library but is not available for checkout. Secondly, Man and His Symbols, by Carl Jung. This is the definitive book on the subject. Also, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon: Portrait of a Film discusses the symbolism of that movie (some of which was used in BBM as well) and also has an introduction by Ang Lee discussing his spiritual beliefs. Finally, Chinese Mythology by Anthony Christie is also illuminating. I also have a small handbook on Chinese Symbolism which I carried in my purse on trips to the theater to see BBM!

Hey Sister Mod,
These are great suggestions.  And, I definitely think there's something Jungian about Brokeback (particularly with so many cross-links between cowboy/western symbols and Asian symbols... and given the diversity of all the people who made Brokeback... including Proulx, Ang Lee, Ossana, McMurtry... an Australian actor even... the numbers of cultures and perspectives influencing the production of BBM is pretty amazing).

I'm sitting at my desk at the museum right now and am looking at a book on my self here called the Dictionary of Subjects and Symbols in Art, by James Hall.  It's another classic reference book on symbols.  I find that book a little old-fashioned though. I have to say I often disagree with books that try to control the definition of symbols too tightly.  In more contemporary (cutting-edge maybe?) studies of symbols (semiotics) there's a great emphasis on the idea that symbols change and shift, usually depending on the viewer and the viewer's perspective.  I firmly believe that all symbols are at least somewhat unstable and can be questioned or re-interpreted. 

I think this is why something like BBM is so endlessly fascinating and can generate 2-years worth of deep discussion by so many people... everyone brings their own perspective to this film which is just filled with ambiguity when it comes to meaning and symbols.

Obviously, I personally, love to talk about Jack-and-the-wind and Ennis-and-the-Earth, etc. but I'm fully aware that other viewers might view all of these nature symbols, etc. completely differently.  I think the symbols themselves are there as hooks for viewers, but that all viewers will come up with their own versions of the meanings of those symbols.
Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: serious crayons on January 03, 2008, 12:38:16 pm
I find that book a little old-fashioned though. I have to say I often disagree with books that try to control the definition of symbols too tightly.  In more contemporary (cutting-edge maybe?) studies of symbols (semiotics) there's a great emphasis on the idea that symbols change and shift, usually depending on the viewer and the viewer's perspective.  I firmly believe that all symbols are at least somewhat unstable and can be questioned or re-interpreted.

Hey Bud! I agree, and that makes symbols especially interesting and useful in art and literature. A rigid system of symbol=meaning would get boring fast. But because they're mutable depending on context and perspective and other factors, they are -- like Brokeback Mountain -- open to varied interpretations as well as multiple interpretations. That is, we can have conflicting interpretations of the meaning of a symbol, but we can also think the symbol means more than one thing simultaneously.

One simple but interesting example is the dead sheep. Sheep, or lambs, are often associated with innocence. In the story/movie, sheep also represent the "rules" -- killing the sheep, rather than guarding them, means breaking the rules, and by spending the night together Ennis and Jack broke their work rules as well as society's "rules." And in this scene, the sheep's corpse also suggests Earl's body -- the eerie music is similar, the shots of Ennis' face juxtaposed with those of the wounded body are similar. And suddenly the scene shifts to a vulnerable looking Jack, still accompanied by eerie music.

So does the sheep symbolize the loss of innocence? Ennis' guilt for having broken the rules? The consequences of transgression? Foreshadowing of Jack's death?

I think it means all of those, and probably more.

Title: Re: TOTW 14/07: Is a cigar just a cigar?
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 03, 2008, 01:01:54 pm
I think it means all of those, and probably more.

Oh, yes, definitely.  I think the important thing is to recognize that a symbol is there or has been positioned intentionally.  The ultimate meaning of the symbol can be debated endlessly.  The culture in semiotics of scholars who really firmly believe in symbol=x and scholars who take a more nuanced approach is pretty interesting and fraught.  I should qualify my position here a tad... I definitely think symbols can (and actually should) be questioned and left unstable... but their meaning is also probably not infinite.  For instance it would be hard to present an argument that the dead sheep is a symbolic indication that Ennis's favorite color is blue... or that Ennis's favorite food is cherry cake (or something).  But, the dead sheep is there... and is meant to spur the viewer to think about its meaning in a significant way.

When talking about film and symbols, one of the famous concepts is montage... this is an editing term meaning two shots are juxtaposed (one right after the other) and this juxtaposition is meant to suggest a third meaning to the viewer beyond the original two images presented. The idea is that the two images will combine to form a third image or idea in the mind of the viewer. Sergei Eisenstein (1898-1948), the Russian filmmaker, is the most famous writer about montage and he used it all the time in his films. Hitchcock used it a lot too.  It's a conscious recognition on the part of filmmakers that visual imagery holds symbolic content that content can be manipulated (by both the filmmaker and the viewer).

Quote
we can also think the symbol means more than one thing simultaneously.

Katherine, what you said here about a symbol taking on two meanings at once I think is very important to the concept of montage.

Anyway, in this particular example of the dead sheep in BBM, I think Lee actually deploys the concept of montage pretty blatantly.  Right after we see the dead sheep we see Jack's naked body by the stream.  The idea of a dead, mutilated sheep juxtaposed with a naked and vulnerable Jack simply must mean something.