In the film, I think an effort is made to portray both Jack and Ennis as fathers who feel a pretty significant sense of responsibility towards their kids (with Ennis being so concerned about making his child support payments and with Jack stepping in and showing concern about Bobby's tutor). I also think an effort is made to show that they both have pride in their children and have fun playing with them (ex. Jack helping Bobby steer the tractor and Ennis generally seeming to dote on his daughters in his own way).
Ennis showed himself to be a loving father to his girls. He attempted to provide for them within the limits of his income, and ambitions. Could he have been a more ambitious provider ( the job at the power company that he didn't bother to apply for)? yes, he could have, and possibly not broken up with Alma if he had made more money.
I do think they did the best they could though. Jack taking Bobby in the tractor does show Jack tried to make an effort with his son, and he does look like he's enjoying it. Ennis meanwhile we see playing with the girls when they're younger, but as they get older, I think he just doesn't know how to relate to and talk to his daughters. The scene where he's had the fight with Alma as she's going to work and the girls are on the swings and he mutters "You want a push or something?" I think is particularly telling. Ennis is only ever really at ease with Jack, and it's almost as though he doesn't know how to talk to his daughters. Whether that's because he's surrounded by women at home, or whether it's just because he doesn't know how to talk to kids, I don't know.
My dad was like that. When my sister and I were younger he just didn't seem to know how to talk to us and what to say (hell, I'm 35 now and he still doesn't LOL!). Whether it's because like Ennis he was in a house surrounded by women, or just that he doesn't know how to talk to kids, I'm not sure, but I suspect the latter. My nephew's 9 now, and he's just the same with my nephew - he either tries too hard or tries to joke with him when it's clear he doesn't understand the joke, and can't seem to get the line right between being strict without pouncing on every little thing he does wrong. Like I said, he was just the same with me and my sister, and it's lead to strained relationships over the years. I guess some men (and I suppose some women too, but less commonly) just don't know how to relate to kids, and I get the feeling that this was the problem with Ennis. He clearly did dote on his daughters - later in the film after the divorce when he sent Jack away, he was clearly putting his girls before Jack on that occasion because he knew he only got limited time with them, and then right at the end he's clearly concerned that Alma Jnr loves this guy she's marrying (even though he doesn't know his name, but then my dad could never remember who I was seeing when I was younger either).
Because Jack in the confrontation scene says that before Ennis was always willing to join him,but then "he was as elusive as the Pope"...Your opinion?.
I also liked the scene of Ennis with the girls and the swing - I thought it was very cute and also was touched by how seemingly unaffected the girls were by their parents bickering - I think they were very confident in the love their parents had for them.
When he and Alma had the fight, right in front of the girls who were on the swingset, he's pretty much telling the girls he can't be bothered to serve them dinner!!
Heya Del,
This is an interesting comment... and definitely an interesting scene to think about carefully.
It's interesting to try to ponder what exactly is Ennis so angry about? Really, what's the big deal about Alma having to work and therefore missing this dinner? It's no news that Alma works (she's been working since the girls were really tiny)... So, this really can't be about Ennis being upset that his wife works. It doesn't seem likely that it's a gender-roles argument in that regard. So, really, what's Ennis so fired up about here? We're not given a lot of details to work with. But, in terms of fixing a simple dinner... we all know that Ennis can cook reasonably well from what we witness of him up on Brokeback. He even seems somewhat contented and interested in making food sometimes when he's cooking on Brokeback (adding extra seasoning, etc.).
That still doesn't speak well of Ennis though. Alma yells back at Ennis that lunch/dinner is "on the stove", but Ennis yells back that no one is eating it, if you're not serving it. Not only is he showing his girls that it's a pain for him to have to bother to serve and feed them, but that it's beneath him to do it. It's low, women's work. He's teaching them what he expects out of women. Women serve men.
Alma is teaching the girls the better lesson there.
And what man doesn't like cooking on a camping trip? That's right up there with women 'cooking' but men barbecuing. ;)
Still, I'm confused about exactly what Ennis is so angry about. Why is he freaking out about Alma working at this juncture? Alma's always worked.
I've been trying to sort out my thoughts about how Ennis' and Jack's experiences of being raised affected their views about, and abilities to parent. Ennis and Jack both had utterly appalling experiences inflicted on them by their fathers. They both, in sharp contrast, were gentle with their own children.
When Ennis was orphaned, his brother and sister "did the best they could", but once he was 19, "no more room for" him. He wasn't a child any more, but he was certainly an inadequately parented young adult.
Jack's folks didn't "run him off" (at least not permanently) since he went back Lightning Flat after that first summer, but home for him, from what we see, seems to be, at best, more about obligation than love and joy. He seems to take joy in Bobby in the early years of his childhood, but the despair that grips Jack as Ennis keeps refusing a life together, seems to sap that joy also.
The anger at their lives that both Jack and Ennis feel spills out, and their children witness it, but it's never directed at the children. That alone isn't enough to make them 'good' parents, not by today's standards, but it's certainly more than they were given by their fathers.
And Jack and Ennis gave their kids a lot more than that.
Again, not enough to make them good parents by our lights, but they were parenting 40 years ago, and doing a much better job than their fathers. Is that enough to ask, that each generation will do better than the one before?
Yes, it's pretty amazing to see how doting and affectionate Ennis and Jack both are in comparison to their fathers. This really is truly admirable about both of them... there's never any indication that either of them is violent towards their children (like OMT definitely was towards Jack... and we can at least be sure that Ennis's father was extremely emotionally abusive towards Ennis and his siblings). So, yes, both Jack and Ennis are enormous improvements on their own fathers.
Still, I'm confused about exactly what Ennis is so angry about. Why is he freaking out about Alma working at this particular juncture? Alma's always worked. I mean, why is he blowing up about it now?
It's not that she's working, but that it's taking precedent over and interfering with their homelife. This is not an uncommon gripe of macho men. The husband who works, then comes home to relax, while fully expecting the wife to work, then come home to cook, clean and take care of the kids too and feels put upon if she asks him to share in that work as well. That's Ennis.
We can? How so? By the Earl incident? That's pretty horrific to be sure, but how can we assume that wasn't an isolated incident? I think the book/movie showed Jack's father to be the more abusive.
OK, yes, I can see this.
With this interpretation in mind... It seems to me that one of the functions of this scene is to demonstrate how much angst, strife and stress over gender roles existed for Ennis within the context of a heterosexual marriage. The peace and calm and utter willingness to switch off with different domestic tasks/ work (i.e. tending vs. herding) between Jack and Ennis is such a contrast. Ennis's behavior on Brokeback shows that the anxiety over tasks that are often perceived to be gender specific just melts away in a single-gender context for him. Ennis seems perfectly happy to be camp tender, and he seems perfectly happy to switch with Jack. There's no stress in that. He washes dishes and cooks Jack's food, etc. So, in that context... and in the context of the relationship where he feels most comfortable... the same issues just simply don't exist where it comes to work load (compared to his experience and unfair expectations with Alma).
Yes, I think Jack's father probably was more consistently abusive towards Jack.
I think the Earl incident alone (even if it's a totally isolated incident) is enough to constitute horrific (I mean criminally horrific) emotional and mental abuse towards young children. I mean, we know this scared Ennis for life and essentially helped ruin his chances at happiness with Jack.
It's been noted in other threads that the Earl story comes as something of a surprise to film viewers (in its horror) because earlier Ennis makes rather positive or somewhat affectionate-sounding comments about his father. In the "most I've spoken in a year" conversation he says "I think my Dad was right", etc. and says that he admired his Dad's skill as a roper, etc. So, the awfulness of the Earl story comes as quite a contrast.
Also, in the way Ennis tells the story about Earl, he also implies that he wonders whether his father was actually the murderer or among the murderers of Earl... by saying "Hell, for all I know, he done the job."
So, I definitely stand by the assertion that Ennis's Dad was emotionally abusive. In this case, one time only was definitely enough to constitute this accusation.
I'm not so sure. Did you ever see the movie "Betrayed"? With Tom Berenger? Ennis' dad could have been similar to the main character. A man who is kind, a good father,sweet, attractive can also hide a very dark side. One that he doesn't let his kids see. In Ennis' case, he did let his boys (but not daughter, Ennis' sister mind you) see. At least he did once. And about Ennis' dad doing the job, well, that's just Ennis' suspicions. Ennis had a lot of those.
So, anyway... the point here is that it seems that Ennis and Jack are both much, much better fathers then their own. I truly believe this.
Thinking about Ennis and the traumatic Thanksgiving with Alma and Monroe... there's a detail in Proulx's story that may or may not come across to a film-viewer-only. In the aftermath of the Thanksgiving fight in the kitchen it says:
"He went to the Black and Blue Eagle bar that night, got drunk, had a short dirty fight and left. He didn't try to see his girls for a long time, figuring they would look him up when they got the sense and years to move out from Alma."
Still, I'm confused about exactly what Ennis is so angry about. Why is he freaking out about Alma working at this particular juncture? Alma's always worked. I mean, why is he blowing up about it now?
Bobby, Alma Jr and Jenny are victims just as much as Jack and Ennis are.
it´s all just so so sad
But a possible saving remnant was that Junior, Jenny and Bobby did not grow up with baggage left by abusive fathers to deal with.
That doesn't alter what I just posted. Breaking the cycle of abuse isn't on a par with being a better housekeeper or more handy around the house than the parents or grandparents were. It's a significant change from one generation to another.
While I agree that all of this is better than being physically and verbally abused, I daresay it borders on emotional abuse at worst or negligence at best and the ramifications can be serious and insidious and long-term.
In that case, we're going to just have to disagree about what "abuse" is. IMO, Ennis in particular has done a far better job as a father than his own father did; and there's just so much you can expect of people when they go into family life with their own baggage.
In that case, we're going to just have to disagree about what "abuse" is. IMO, Ennis in particular has done a far better job as a father than his own father did; and there's just so much you can expect of people when they go into family life with their own baggage.
They did the best they could and that's all any of us can say.
I agree. Given the complex situation, I think they did the best they could.
Neither intentionally set out to harm their kids, and I think Ennis more so than Jack was acutely aware of his responsibilities, though undoubtedly he didn't always get it right, and didn't always do the right thing.
At the end of the film when Alma Jnr visits Ennis to tell him about her engagement she's obviously still close to her father (the fact he doesn't know her fiance's name is I think more of a "father" thing than any sign of distance between her and Ennis IMHO from the easy way she laughs with him about it though) and in the SS's prologue Ennis says that he "might have to stay with his married daughter" (presumably Alma Jnr), which suggests they still have a good relationship.
From Amanda:
Still, I'm confused about exactly what Ennis is so angry about. Why is he freaking out about Alma working at this particular juncture? Alma's always worked. I mean, why is he blowing up about it now?
Sure he dumps the girls with Alma at the grocery store when his boss called - but he was willing to take care of them when Alma was working and he wasn't. How many fathers of that time were willing to do so? Heck, how many fathers today are willing to do so?
And what else could he have done in this situation? He could have organized someone else to look after the kids (Alma's sister for example). But he did say he was in a big hurry, so maybe his boss was very impatient and bossy, we simply don't know. And although Alma had a job, I don't think she was the main bread winner.
And maybe Monroe plays a part in this scene, too. Ennis says, "Well, tell him you made a fuckin' mistake." Ennis doesn't say, "Tell them...." (the "them" being some other employee who couldn't work those particular hours). The "him" is obviously Monroe. By working the extra shift, Alma is doing Monroe a favor. In Ennis's mind, she's doing something to please Monroe, putting Monroe before the needs of her own family, and Ennis doesn't like it.
In fact, the mention of Monroe is the entire reason for this scene. To smooth the transition to Alma as wife of Monroe. Most moviegoers, unlike the rest of us, did not read the story before seeing the movie. Imagine, without this scene, the BBM novice seeing Monroe at the Thanksgiving table. They would know only that Alma worked for him once, years ago -- back when the girls were babies. The swingset scene is what informs viewers that Alma works at the grocery through the years. That, IMO, is the purpose of the scene.
In fact, the mention of Monroe is the entire reason for this scene. To smooth the transition to Alma as wife of Monroe. Most moviegoers, unlike the rest of us, did not read the story before seeing the movie. Imagine, without this scene, the BBM novice seeing Monroe at the Thanksgiving table. They would know only that Alma worked for him once, years ago -- back when the girls were babies. The swingset scene is what informs viewers that Alma works at the grocery through the years. That, IMO, is the purpose of the scene. It's a bonus that we see Alma honor the promise to her employer, making his needs a priority over her ranting husband's 'needs'.
Ennis in particular may have been a good father, but he was a lousy husband. Alma must be a part of the equation, she had feelings and needs which were deeply violated by Ennis.
Yes, I still think Ennis was a good father. He was certainly flawed too. But, in a nutshell, I think he was a good father or at least much better than some. And, again, back to the comparison with his own Dad and OMT, Ennis was a very good dad in comparison in my opinion.I agree with you,atz75.Ennis,and to some extent Jack,could perfectly have the image of their own fathers to mirror them-what is very common...-They easily could have repeated the same patterns as a fathers that they suffered as a sons.And,in exchange,they were worried about their studies and comfort in general and,in Ennis case,nobody can discuss his great love for his daughters.That's much more than both of them could say as a sons...
Being providing money and being in love with a child's mother (or not) are not the only measures of a good father.