It seems unlikely that Ennis would let himself be pushed around by Mr. Twist on a regular basis. He gives in on the ashes question, well obviously for a number of reasons, but again, it's hard to imagine Ennis backing down over more mundane things. Essentially, I think that there'd be a lot of competition for "stud duck" status on the ranch. I don't think Jack would step in much here... I get the sense that he was pretty intimidated by his Dad.
Can anybody imagine how Ennis and John Twist could have co-existed on the same ranch?
Can anybody imagine how Ennis and John Twist could have co-existed on the same ranch?Like several others I can see that, too. Co-existing. Ennis isn't confrontational unless provoked into rage and fear by remarks that he deems to touch upon his sexuality, - and he isn't assertive in my view. But he sure *does* know how to be stubborn: That *look* he gives Alma when she protests him dumping their daughters off at the store. The fact that he keeps up the "way the hell out in the back of nowhere" arrangement when Jack wants so much more for 16 long years. I can see Ennis living on that ranch and determinedly avoiding old man Twist for just as long, given that the old man doesn't provoke any confrontation on his part.
I think it's interesting that Jack kept mentioning bringing Ennis to Lightning Flat.
That *look* he gives Alma when she protests him dumping their daughters off at the store.
(I've imagined Jack's mother and father both reading much more in his face and his tone than what he actually ever said in words, too; - hence their seemingly knowing reaction to Ennis when they finally meet him - the father so contemptful, the mother so full of understanding and affection.)
OT, but I've always found that a strange moment. Yeah, his look is stubborn, but more in a pleading than threatening way. Yet Alma suddenly backs down as if scared of him.
Sure, Mr. Twist is a jerk, but in Ennis' experience, the way fathers react to homosexuality is not by making snide remarks but by torturing someone to death.
From Nakymaton
I think it depends on how Ennis and Mr. Twist relate to one another: as ranch hand and employer, or as Jack's lover and Jack's father?
He'd be doing a lot of spittin, though.Yes! But then Ennis is a consummate spitter, too. The hygiene conditions on the Twist Ranch might inbetween leave something to be desired..... ;)
(As for Mr. Twist's "too special" remark, Mel, I agree. He probably meant mainly the things you mentioned, and he probably wasn't explicitly or consciously referring to sexuality either then, or when he says "I know where Brokeback Mountain is" or "family plot." But those lines have that metaphoric meaning for viewers. In other words, as far as Mr. Twist knows, he's simply noting that he could find Brokeback and put the ashes there himself if he wanted to, which he doesn't. But because we connect the mountain with Jack and Ennis' relationship, we can interpret it as a clue that he knows about Jack.)Oh, definitely. There's definitely more than one meaning to everything said in that conversation -- heck, there's more than one meaning to nearly everything in the movie, I suspect. (Which is why I'm still trying to talk through it after five months or more.) And sexuality is definitely an undercurrent in that conversation.
There's definitely more than one meaning to everything said in that conversation -- heck, there's more than one meaning to nearly everything in the movie, I suspect.
Actually, the spitting even has more than one level of meaning. I kind of figured that Mr. Twist chewed tobacco, and that the cup was his spitoon.Oh, the spitting definitely has more than one meaning. Even if it's viewed as a certain sign of contempt (which by no means is certain) - what is it contempt *for*? Jack thinking himself above his folks? Jack's (and Ennis's) sexual orientation? Everyone and anything in general, 'cause Mr. Twist is a mean old bugger?
Oh, definitely. There's definitely more than one meaning to everything said in that conversation -- heck, there's more than one meaning to nearly everything in the movie, I suspect. (Which is why I'm still trying to talk through it after five months or more.) And sexuality is definitely an undercurrent in that conversation.
I've seen guys spit into far more disturbing things than a coffee cup.
Though if you don't, I will! (Speaking of which, what the hell does that line mean? I've always found it a little weird.)
maybe it would work better to just list lines and see how many different interpretations we can come up with. Either way, go ahead and start a thread! No one's too new, and it's your good idea. Though if you don't, I will! (Speaking of which, what the hell does that line mean? I've always found it a little weird.)That would be fun. Heck, we could just go through the screenplay and list a different line each day, and see how many different interpretations we could come up with. (Probably "Hunnh?" will have the most possible readings. :D )
But I honestly do not feel comfortable posting threads here just yet - so as for a new "One or multiple meaning of lines" thread - please do go right ahead!
Well, I'm happy to post for you, but I'll warn you, my threads have a way of sinking like stones. Pretty good with other people's threads, though!Can't be much worse than me, then.
Jack is at least as assertive as Ennis, arguably more so.
Well, I'm happy to post for you, but I'll warn you, my threads have a way of sinking like stones. Pretty good with other people's threads, though!
Yay! We can keep these threads going for months and months. I would gladly spend that much time scrutinizing every single one of Ennis' facial expressions. (Hell, I already have spent that much time doing that!
I feel that this assertiveness is true of Jack in almost every case except for with his Dad. I don't have any great proof or reasoning for this, but I feel like Jack would be pretty intimidated by his Dad.
Ennis has next to no self-confidence at all. He takes every slight and possible insult much more personally as a result, and either stews on it in hurt but seemingly unaffected silence, I think - or explodes in uncontrolled rage if there's a sexual connotation involved.
Jack on the other hand has a good deal of self-confidence, but also a very disarming ability to laugh at himself and to not take himself too seriously. It takes quite a lot for him to become overtly assertive - he knows and believes in his own worth, he doesn't feel the need to get up all in arms every time someone steps on his toes. (The Thanksgiving show-down in my opinion is partly due to his sense of obligation towards Bobby. The boy needs a father to be proud of; - and moreover he needs to be "saved" from having LD as his (only) role model. If not for his son's sake, I'm not entirely certain Jack would have bothered with the tension of having an open confrontation with LD, no matter what his father-in-law might think to say to provoke him.)
Now, how Jack ever got that healthy self-confidence is a bit of a mystery to me.
On a more serious note, in the book it's made pretty clear (and it's hinted in the film) that John Twist was pretty abusive to Jack. How would Ennis have reacted to seeing Jack berated by his father?
The Thanksgiving show-down in my opinion is partly due to his sense of obligation towards Bobby. The boy needs a father to be proud of; - and moreover he needs to be "saved" from having LD as his (only) role model. If not for his son's sake, I'm not entirely certain Jack would have bothered with the tension of having an open confrontation with LD, no matter what his father-in-law might think to say to provoke him.
I can picture Jack at the kitchen table with his mom at the stove when Ennis comes in the house and gives Jack a kiss.
My opinion is that he let them know he was coming. There's something about the way she steps on the porch that tells me she was anticipating his arrival. And the coffee was all brewed and ready to pour. (The cake may have been something she just habitually keeps on hand.) In an earlier discussion, Jeff pointed out that if he'd called ahead they might have mentioned that the ashes were already slated for the family plot. So maybe he sent a postcard. But then he would have had to wait at least a couple of days before going. Hmm.
I definately think he went up there ASAP. I don't think he could have waited until next spring. He may have sent a postcard or letter, General Delivery of course, as he wouldn't have known the exact address. It may have just said:
Mr. & Mrs. Twist
My name is Ennis Delmar. I was a good friend of
Jacks and would like to come up and see you for
a visit to express my condolences. Please let me
know if this is S'alright and reply with your address
and some directions.
Ennis
To which Ma Twist would have immediately recognized the name. I'm sure she was anxious to meet the man her son raved about. I'm sure she was sincere when she told him to come back sometime. Especially after the Stud duck kicks the bucket. Jack was an only child, she could leave the ranch to Ennis in her will !
What about Bobby?
Bobby? I'm sure the Twists NEVER met him! They know he exists, but I'm sure Jack made it known that Old L.D. Newsome had a college fund all set up for Bobby. Besides, look how Bobby was raised. You think he would want to leave a nice home and job/college to go up to Lightning Flat? I don't think so, an neither would the Twists. I could definately see Ma Twist leaving the Ranch to Ennis.
As for Ennis being isolated out there? How is that any different from his trailer?? At least he would out on the ranch doing what he likes best. And who knows, maybe he'll meet a handsome young buck at the feed store who needs a job as a Ranch hand?
Talk about the ashes over the phone? That's unlikely, especially if they don't know each other. A Burial or ashes scattering is intimate, you just don't call out of the blue and make such an offer, especially to a parent. I can't picture Ennis doing that. I think he called ahead, (Jack's mom probably picked up the phone since she's the one who's usually at home), explained who he was and that he wanted to stop by to offer his condolences. Mrs. Twist, happy to finally meet one of Jack's friend, said yes and later told her husband about it, leaving him with no choice but to let Ennis come.
I agree with you opinionista, however it was that Ennis gets in touch with the Twists before he gets there, and he must do this (I think) to know where they live, there wouldn't be any talk beyond this in the calll or postcard. I guess it is possible that he could just turn up in Lightning Flat and ask people (like Jack did to find Ennis after the divorce), but the way that Ma Twist come out on to the porch suggests an expected visitor.
One question though, when you asked "What about Bobby" I thought: What about "What about Bobby"? Do you mean that the Twists might leave the ranch to him? But why would they leave it to Ennis? Is this assuming that Jack was dead also? If not they would leave it to Jack surely. I think I'm confusing myself. ;)
LOL! Whoa people. This thread really is getting crazy and funny. Seriously, re-read like the last 5 posts. Now no one seems to agree on who's dead or not. And how did this end up being a discussion about inheritance and changing wills, etc.?
LOL! Whoa people. This thread really is getting crazy and funny. Seriously, re-read like the last 5 posts. Now no one seems to agree on who's dead or not. And how did this end up being a discussion about inheritance and changing wills, etc.?
Ok, back to the question of how Ennis contacted Jack's folks. In the real film. Well, he hangs up with Lureen before asking the phone number of Jack's parents. Maybe there's an off chance that Jack and Ennis had exchanged this type of info in the past. He must have called. I agree that there's no way he would have shown up out of the blue. A postcard seems too slow.
Somewhere along the line, I think the role of economics would have entered into it. In the Annie Proulx story, the old man has a line that didn't make it into the screenplay: "I can't get no help out here." It might be interesting to see him deal with the conflict between his disdain for his son and his probable dislike of Ennis on the one hand, and, on the other hand, the fact that he suddenly has two healthy, strappin' young fellas to run his ranch for him and maybe turn the place around.
I think that if Jack had actually talked to Ennis about working on the John C. Twist, Sr. Lightning Flat ranch together, they might have gotten away with living in a cabin together on the ranch.
Unlike like what I have read elsewhere in other Brokeback Forums, I believe that other than the fact that they knew Ennis Del Mar was a good friend of their son, Jack, they did not have a clue as to what his exact relationship had been with their son when Ennis showed up. And, I seriously doubt they even had a clue as to what kind of relationship the guys had other than being best friends. Both of the guys in the book were very masculine and certainly were not pretty boys.
I have known many parents who were church goers and they did not have a clue about having a son who was homosexual and even had a boyfriend whom they also met. I have even heard preachers say they could recognize homosexuals and they even believed that there were none in their churches (they didn't have a clue, either).
Aside note here: Cox Cable TV is showing Brokeback Mountain on Pay Per View now. Just saw the commercial.
I assumed they know because Mrs. Twsit offers Ennis to go up to Jack's room and even lets him take the shirts. No person would take a couple of shirts that belonged to a friend as a keepsake, unless something else was going on. That's too personal and intimate. Besides, Jack's dad sort of hints it when rambling on about what Jack used to say. Maybe they didn't know for a fact, but they knew there was something different about Jack. Parents always know this things, it's just that some are in denial.
When it came -- thirty cents -- he pinned it up in his trailer, brass-headed tack in each corner. Below it he drove a nail and on the nail he hung the wire hanger and the two old shirts suspended from it. He stepped back and looked at the ensemble through a few stinging tears. "Jack, I swear -- " he said, though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind.
At the north end of the closet a tiny jog in the wall made a slight hiding place and here, stiff with long suspension from a nail, hung a shirt.
You have to remember that the taking of the shirts activity is only in the movie, Annie Proulx didn't write how Ennis got the shirts out of the Twist house. When the location of the story changes from Lightning Flat to Signal were Ennis is at the car wash washing the Stoutamire Ranch horse blankets and after he buys a Brokeback Mountain postcard at Higgins' Gift shop, we discover that Ennis has the shirts. The "it" in the quote refers to the postcard.
Annie Proulx does write about Jack's mom offering Ennis to go up to his room, and Ennis finding the shirts in the closet. I assumed Jack's parents knew about them from the short story, not from the movie. I think it's pretty much implied Jack's parent suspected there was something different about his son and that Ennis might be part of the reason. They also knew he took the shirts.
From the short story:
Ennis sat at the kitchen table with Jack's father. Jack's mother, stout and careful in her movements as though recovering from an operation, said "Want some coffee, don't you? Piece a cherry cake?
"Thank you Ma'am, I'll take a cup of coffee but I can't eat no cake just now.
The oldman sat silent, his hands folded on the plastic tablecloth, staring at Ennis with an angry, knowing expression...
The old man sat silent, his hands folded on the plastic tablecloth, staring at Ennis with an angry, knowing expression. Ennis recognized in him a not uncommon type with the hard need to be the stud duck in the pond. He couldn't see much of Jack in either one of them, took a breath.
So, we've discussed both here and on the old board many amazing aspects of the interaction between Jack's Mom and Ennis. I'd like to see more discussion about the interaction with the father. This topic came up in another conversation and I thought it was worth a thread...
If Jack's dream had come true of Ennis coming up to Lightning Flat to live and help run the ranch... Can anybody imagine how Ennis and John Twist could have co-existed on the same ranch? The idea just makes me smile. I think things would have been great with Mrs. Twist (a new mother-figure for Ennis the orphan). But, the idea of Ennis and Mr. Twist clashing on a daily basis is just amazing.
On a more serious note, in the book it's made pretty clear (and it's hinted in the film) that John Twist was pretty abusive to Jack. How would Ennis have reacted to seeing Jack berated by his father?
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=3148.0
(It is very tempting to read all that on a metaphorical level, with bull-riding an obvious simile for gay lovemaking - the implication being that John Twist is gay, too, and angry and bitter because his son actively tried to lead the life he himself never had. In that case, his contempt may well be a cover-up for the reverse - a classically Freudian reaction-formation; and his refusal to let Ennis take the ashes to the mountain in essence amounts to a kind of posthumous revenge: "I had to fit in, so I'll make him fit in, too". ??? Hmm. Maybe that's taking things a little too far...).
Bumping since John Twist, Sr. seems to be coming up frequently in other discussions around here lately.
:-*
-- Ennis protectively shields the shirts when walking past OMT in the kitchen. What if he hadn't, and John Twist had seen the shirts? Would he have snatched them from Ennis' hands?
No. He had every opportunity to see what was going on and take action or raise an objection while Jack's mother was putting the shirts in the paper bag, and he does not.
Good idea, Amanda! I had thought of starting a new thread, after participating in a John Twist discussion earlier today. But this is even better.
So let's lay the OMT issues out on the table:
-- Why didn't OMT ever teach Jack a thing or go see him ride?
-- What did he know or suspect about Jack? How about Jack and Ennis? How about Jack and Randall?
-- Was he a mean SOB through and through, or was he genuinely grieving Jack (not mutually exclusive, acutually)?
-- Was he homophobic?
-- Why didn't he let Ennis take the ashes?
-- When he insisted Jack be buried in the "family plot," what did he mean -- was that an allusion to what we think of as (anti-gay) family values, or simply an assertion of control, or something else entirely?
-- Ennis protectively shields the shirts when walking past OMT in the kitchen. What if he hadn't, and John Twist had seen the shirts? Would he have snatched them from Ennis' hands?
-- How does story-OMT differ from movie-OMT? Can you imagine movie-OMT participating in the peeing-on-Jack scene that was in the story but omitted from the movie?Movie OMT is more sympathetic (yeah, that's right!) and complex. Story OMT is described as a stud duck but movie OMT is a defeated man. OMT has Jack's blue eyes in the movie but in the story Ennis can't see Jack in either one of them. In fact, the story leads me to believe that OMT isn't really even Jack's father. But yes I can see movie OMT lashing out in anger at Jack when he was younger.
OMT did see the shirt, and let him take it. What he did NOT see was the second shirt encased in the first.
Well, yes, but it was Ennis's own shirt inside Jack's shirt. He could hardly have objected to Ennis taking back his own property--even after almost twenty years. :D
Yes, but OMT wouldn't have known that. I think Ennis shields the shirts from OMT as part of his general paranoia. OMT wouldn't have begrudged him the shirts IMO.
I'm reviving this because Old Man Twist has again reared his head as a figure of considerable controversy. He's (at the very least) interesting and invigorating to debate.