Over the years before Jack reappeared, Ennis kept him as his guilty secret, "wringing it out" in private to feel close to him again. When the postcard came, probably all sorts of alarm bells went off in Ennis's subconcious. God forbid Alma should get an inkling of what he and Jack had been to each other while working together for those months. The lie popped out as a matter of course.
though my being clued in to his doing the same in the tar spreading and drive-in movie scenes came much later
In thinking about this, I decided it makes sense that Ennis wants to distance Alma as much as possible from Jack
Notice the pause. It fits to my explanation, doesn't it? Ennis blabbered out about Jack and rodeo before he began to think. Rare for Ennis, to speak without thinking before. But it shows us how excited, delighted and agitated he was about the postcard.
Tar-spreading scene: The guy Ennis is working with reminds Ennis in a negative way of Jack (he's neither cute nor fun), and also of how Ennis himself could very well wind up in 20 years. Ennis is wearing a blue plaid shirt (Jack's colors). The big clue is the other guy says something like "the wife said I would break my back working blah blah blah" and it's those words that trigger Ennis to stand up and look wistfully off to one side into the distance, as he always does when thinking of Jack.
So it would have been normal/usual to share at least some stories about what happened during the months they were apart. Even for taciturn Ennis. I'm sure Alma asked him about it. And it would have been natural to tell your fiancee about your coworker/compagnion, especially if you refer to him later as a friend. But Ennis didn't do this.
So Brokeback dropped out as possible explanation for who Jack was.
Maybe this has something to do with Ang Lee's statement that he sees their relationship as "something private and precious and they cannot articulate..."
WOW!!! I love this. It's something I've never considered before either. I missed and/or forgot about this discussion from the old board too. By the way, the "he's neither cute nor fun" comment just made me laugh so hard that my cat woke up from her nap and looked at me with great alarm.
I'd have thought Ennis would have had another panic attack after seeing that postcard! He probably walked into the bathroom and threw up he was so nervous!
;D I can't help but laugh. I've read someone else suggesting Ennis was heading for the bathroom for doing something comletely different. Something way more enjoyable than throwing up ;D "wrang it out", ya know ;)
Please don't get me wrong. I don't laugh neither about your idea nor about the other one. But about the fact that both ideas about what Ennis might do are completly opposite.
Okay, it's late here and I'm a bit goofy: I imagine Ennis standing in the bathroom, singing a counting-out rhyme to find his descicion what to do ;D Okay, maybe I'm more than a bit goofy. Time to go to bed: N8, folks!
To "wring" and to "wring out" (or as Ennis says in past tense "wrang it out)," is the act of trying squeeze out an answer to why something happens which seems to have no answer. The expression has no connection with masturbation.
http://ca.encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861714245/wring.html (http://ca.encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861714245/wring.html)
wring [ ring ]
Definition:
1. twist and compress something: to twist and compress something in order to force liquid out of it
Huh? Was there a discussion on this that I missed? How is it that we can tell Ennis is thinking of Jack while spreading tar and at the drive-in? I just about agree with everything you see in the film, but this one (particularly the drive-in) escapes me. Was it on TOB?
I think a lot of the phrases in the story have multiple meanings, just like a lot of lines in the movie do. So, yeah, "wrang it out" and "rolled his own" and "stemmed the rose" had particular meanings in colloquial Wyoming speech in the 60's, but in the context of the story, in the hotel room that "stank of semen," there's sex in just about everything those guys say.
"...I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you. You do it with other guys? Jack?"
"Shit no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own.
This definition most certainly can be analogous to masturbation. Whether the word is supposed to mean it or not. Especially as in 1962, Alma was still doing laundry, where you would 'wring out' the laundry to squeeze out the excess water. An action Ennis is most certainly familiar with.
Well, people with dirty minds can make almost any word or phrase in the English language be related to sexual activity. Alma was rubbing the dirt off of the laundry in the sink. Well, "rub off" is another euphemism for "masturbation, too.
I don't agree with this at all. These characters were in a sexual love affair, I don't see it as having a dirty mind to perceive that their dialogue alluded to sex also. I mean, to tell your post-coital lover that you "wrung it out about a 100 times" thinking about him: if that's not about masturbation, then I must have the mind of a gutter rat! Peace. :laugh:
Well, people with dirty minds can make almost any word or phrase in the English language be related to sexual activity. Alma was rubbing the dirt off of the laundry in the sink. Well, "rub off" is another euphemism for "masturbation, too.
Since I am a country feller and have some education beyond high school, I have heard people use the expression "wrang it out" when they were trying to think really hard to figure out why something happened.
Also, a similar expression about serious thinking, a rural man would say, "I been sittin' here studyin' about that." Was he actually studying something that had been in print? No, he had been thinking really hard about a certain subject.
Well, I think the context in which Ennis says this pretty much decides it.
From the short story:
Ennis: I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hundred times thinkin about you.
The context is Ennis talking about having sex with another man ('doin it' another euphemism).
You are correct on that part about the "doin in," that is. And the context of "wrang it out" has to do with Ennis's thinking about doin' it with Jack.
So, there's no need to assume that Ennis pulled "IT" out of his pants and played with "IT."
The expression "to wring (it) out" has to do with difficult thinking about something and no connection with self-manipulation at all.
A guy is thinking about having sex with someone. Guys do it quite often. They also do it almost 100% of the time while masturbating. So there that is.
Well, there's every need since Ennis is talking about having sex with men, and since Jack isn't there, the next best thing for Ennis while thinking about doin' it with Jack is... [shrugs] Pretty clear to me.
Tia you keep talking like you're an authority and the last word on what that expression means. There are other uses for that expression.
Tia is not short for "Tiawah," place in Rogers County, Oklahoma!
Since I am a man and not a woman, I ought to know a little bit more about how guys think and what they do more than you do, ma'am!
One does not have to masturbate when one thinks about having had memorable sex with his friend, nor does he have to masturbate while trying to figure out why the only person he can imagine having sex with is that friend.
I love it too, and since for once I can actually remember someone to credit, let me add that it was Casey Cornelius' thread. (I think starboardlight may have participated also.) I was so blown away by it because it was still fairly early in my Brokeback career. Before that, I had seen that tar-spreading scene as pretty much just a quick way to what kind of jobs Ennis was taking over the years. And when they started pointing to all the little clues about what this or that meant, I felt like a whole new world was opening up (and like my time on the board should qualify me for a graduate degree in film studies!).
By the way, I remember one funny line from that discussion. This time I can't remember who said it (maybe jshane?) but anyway. Someone said Ennis was probably thinking about Jack when he stared off into the distance, and the other person said, "Are you kidding? I'M thinking about Jack when I stare off into the distance. There's no doubt he is!"
Tia is the way I shorten it. ;D
Well, sure, but that doesn't make you an authority on how ALL men think, now does it?
No, he doesn't have to, but he most certainly could and very likely did.
Here's a link to the thread in our archive.
http://www.geocities.com/bbmarchive/surfparty.html
Hey Chris: What is TOB? The Other Board?? please confirm or explain... Here is one more explanation that I read on IMDb two days ago: The boy in the film is telling the pretty little blonde girl that it is illegal to park their trailer, ie: camp on the beach, and that is reminiscent of the illegal camping that Aguirre insisted that the herder do up on Brokeback. Do you think that is too obscure?
The reason we believe that Ennis is thinking of Jack when he is tarring, is who in their right mind would not be reminiscing and pining for last summer's peaceful idylic job up with his buddy Jack? Versus being teamed up with *such* a blabbermouth, man! -- if I have to listen to him all day! And plus the fact the the guy says "broke back".
Yes, these concepts are from TOB. Sorry to talk in shorthand, though I don't want to go over things if people are already familiar with them. The threads were long, but as briefly as possible here are some of the main points:
Tar-spreading scene: The guy Ennis is working with reminds Ennis in a negative way of Jack (he's neither cute nor fun), and also of how Ennis himself could very well wind up in 20 years. Ennis is wearing a blue plaid shirt (Jack's colors). The big clue is the other guy says something like "the wife said I would break my back working blah blah blah" and it's those words that trigger Ennis to stand up and look wistfully off to one side into the distance, as he always does when thinking of Jack.
I like even more that you picked up on "Broke back's and weak minds run in the family" reminding Ennis of Broke-back - actually I think he says "bad back's" but I might have miss-heard this. Thanks for pointing it out though! :)
The bartender sees Jack get rejected. So when the Bartender then says :" Ever try Calf roping?" I take that he is telling Jack "try sticking to picking up girls"
Tiawahcowboy - I just asked this on another thread but since you brought the subject up here & you have such an issue with how your "ID" name is addressed, why didn't you stick to TJ? Or Joe Allen Doty???
Tar-spreading scene: The guy Ennis is working with reminds Ennis in a negative way of Jack (he's neither cute nor fun), and also of how Ennis himself could very well wind up in 20 years. Ennis is wearing a blue plaid shirt (Jack's colors). The big clue is the other guy says something like "the wife said I would break my back working blah blah blah" and it's those words that trigger Ennis to stand up and look wistfully off to one side into the distance, as he always does when thinking of Jack.
Drive-in scene: The woman in the movie is emerging from a trailer, a reminder of Aguirre's trailer. There was some talk of what the actual movie is onscreen, which I missed, though I think that may be significant, too. (Starboardlight, if you read this, weren't you in on that discussion?) And Alma grabs Ennis' hand and presses it to her pregnant belly in a way reminiscent of Jack's grabbing Ennis' hand in TS1.
In December Ennis married Alma Beers and had her pregnant by mid-January. He picked up a few short-lived ranch jobs, then settled in as a wrangler on the old Elwood Hi-Top place north of Lost Cabin in Washakie County. He was still working there in September when Alma Jr., as he called his daughter, was born and their bedroom was full of the smell of old blood and milk and baby shit, and the sounds were of squalling and sucking and Alma's sleepy groans, all reassuring of fecundity and life's continuance to one who worked with livestock.
tiawahcowboy
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Re: what possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2006, 06:21:29 pm »
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Quote from: opinionista on May 28, 2006, 06:08:13 pm
It's funny because in Spanish Del Mar is a girl's name. It's usually a middle name, as in Maria del Mar.
Yep, an' thar's a whole passel of Hispanic men who have "Maria" as first name. John Wayne's and Pat Robertson's legal first names? Marion. I used to know a woman whose first name was spelled "Marion."
In my life, I have known men named, Sharon, Shirley, and Sherrill. Sharon Parks was a great big country boy and nobody fun of his name. Shirley Rogers McKenzie preferred to be called "Roger;" his mother name him after a male Cherokee relative whose full name was "Shirley Rogers." Sherrill Booker told people to just call him "Booker."
While this is not a regular message board run by an ISP, according to internet etiquette, it is rude to shorten the a person's "ID" name. I could mess with your Spanish name and say something accordingly.
I am not an authority on all men;
but, I am old enough to know quite about a bit about them.
What makes you an authority on male sexual activity.
All men are not alike when it comes to sexual preferences; not every guy masturbates.
To "wring" and to "wring out" (or as Ennis says in past tense "wrang it out)," is the act of trying squeeze out an answer to why something happens which seems to have no answer. The expression has no connection with masturbation.
Oh most definately it was referring to Masturbating. Think of how the word was used in the book. "I must have wrang it out a hundred times thinking about you".
Doesn't everyone fantasize about their dream partner when playing with themselves? ;)
Hot damn Starboardlight, how did you do that??? Is there really an archive for the IMDb threads? Cool, who has access to it??
J
From the story:
"I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H. ain't nothing like this. I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hundred times thinkin about you. You do it with other guys, Jack?" "Shit no", said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own.
Now that I have brought the above quotation from the story, I ask you guys, is Proulx implying that Jack had sex with other guys while away from Ennis? I'm not quite sure I understand what the author means with Jack riding more than bulls not rolling his own.
I think Proulx meant Jack was having sex with other men. Ang Lee/writers seem to think so as well, hence the scene with Jimbo the clown in the movie. Jack was actively seeking sex with other men.
all this arguing about "wrang it out" is funny. tiawahcowboy, you're certainly entitled to interpret the phrase how you like, but I don't understand why you're so adamant that other read it the same way you do. In literature, metaphors are very common. An imagery can be used to describe something even though they nothing to do with one another. When Shakespeare wrote "A rose by any other name" he wasn't talking about flowers. He used the phrase to describe Romeo and Juliet's love in the face of family conflict. A phrase can have a surface meaning and many under layers of meanings at the same time.
Thanks Del. That's what I thought but wasn't 100% sure.
Listen up, I live in Oklahoma and so did thousands of other people. If you look up the colloquial/regional expression, "wrang it out," you will see that it has to do with some serious thinking about getting the answer to a difficult question and it takes quite a while before one realizes what the real answer was.
I agree with DavidinHardford, in the short story Ennis was definitely referring to masturbating. They were talking about sex at that moment.
From the story:
"I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H. ain't nothing like this. I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hundred times thinkin about you. You do it with other guys, Jack?" "Shit no", said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own.
Now that I have brought the above quotation from the story, I ask you guys, is Proulx implying that Jack had sex with other guys while away from Ennis? I'm not quite sure I understand what the author means with Jack riding more than bulls not rolling his own.
Yes, but neither Ennis/Jack or Proulx are in Oklahoma. What means one thing in Oklahoma can most certainly mean something else in Wyoming.
Is the American English language the first language you learned? Or did you learn English after you learned Spanish?
I have noticed in a number of internet groups and forums boads related to Brokeback Mountain, most of the membership in them know very little or almost nothing about how rural people, cowboys and farmers, etc., talk in their everyday lives in the US states of Montana, N. Dakota, S. Dakota, Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri (western side especially), Kansas, Colorado, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Texas, and Wyoming.
And what makes you an expert on American Country regional dilects and local expression, ma'am?
Oh, my its really interesting how so many women think they understand everything there is to know about men, including how they think and what they do with themselves while they are thinking.
Um, if 'wrang out' is - as you stated - an Oklahoma regional/local expression it is therefore, by YOUR definition, not a national expression and thus may not be applicable to Wyoming.
You don't have to be an expert to make that conclusion.
Originally posted by silkincense:
Tiawahcowboy - I just asked this on another thread but since you brought the subject up here & you have such an issue with how your "ID" name is addressed, why didn't you stick to TJ? Or Joe Allen Doty?
So Tiawahcowboy = Tj = Joe Allen Doty
Interesting.
So Tiawahcowboy = Tj = Joe Allen Doty
Interesting.
Yep "Del" ;D it would seem...
Anyway, back to the topic-what ist he topic??
So, this is a relatively straight forward question. Why does Ennis lie to Alma about how he knows Jack? When she asks whether they had cowboy-ed together (by the way I love the use of the word cowboy as a verb!) he says, no, that they were fishing buddies. Why doesn't he want her to know they had worked together? I truly don't understand the reasoning here.
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Re: Why the Lie?
« Reply #45 on: Today at 10:41:21 am »
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Tiawahcowboy -
Well the title of this thread is certainly appropriate. Why the lie?
The ENTIRE last paragraph with spelling & grammatical errors was previously posted under either the ID "TJ" or "Joe Allen Doty." If you want, I will try to have the previous posts checked to refresh your memory.
tiawahcowboy
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Re: what possessed Jack to take that shirt in the first place?
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2006, 06:21:29 pm »QuoteYep, an' thar's a whole passel of Hispanic men who have "Maria" as first name. John Wayne's and Pat Robertson's legal first names? Marion. I used to know a woman whose first name was spelled "Marion."Quote
In my life, I have known men named, Sharon, Shirley, and Sherrill. Sharon Parks was a great big country boy and nobody fun of his name. Shirley Rogers McKenzie preferred to be called "Roger;" his mother name him after a male Cherokee relative whose full name was "Shirley Rogers." Sherrill Booker told people to just call him "Booker."
QuoteTJ
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Re: Hats off to Roberta Maxwell (Mrs. Twist)
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2006, 12:51:39 am »
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julie01, after I posted a response to your message, I looked at your BetterMost Profile.
I did not know that you were so much older than me.
The 16 year old "guy" actually has a woman's name "ednakrabapley" in his email address. I have never met a guy named "Edna" (that's my older sister's name); but, I have had friends whose first names were Sherrill, Shirley and Sharon.
Sherrill's last name was "Booker' and he prefered to be called by his last name. Shirley's Middle name was "Rogers;" he had been named after a male Cherokee relative "Shirley Rogers," he preferred to be called "Roger."
Now the Sharon guy was a big fellow and nobody made fun of his name.
Listen up, I live in Oklahoma and so did thousands of other people. If you look up the colloquial/regional expression, "wrang it out," you will see that it has to do with some serious thinking about getting the answer to a difficult question and it takes quite a while before one realizes what the real answer was.
In the book/short story, in August 1963, after Ennis and Jack drove (their trucks) away in opposite directions, "within a mile Ennis felt like someone was pulling his guts out hand over hand a yard at at time. He stopped at the side of the road and, in the whirling new snow, tried to puke but nothing came up. He felt about as bad as he ever had and it took a long time for the feeling to wear off."
Then at the 1967 Reunion in the Riverton Siesta Motel room . . . "That summer," said Ennis. "When we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois. Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."
Ennis did not exactly have a limited vocabulary; he was a man of few words when it came to speaking to strangers and to himself. The expressions, to "figure it out" and to, "wring it out," mean exactly the same thing here in Tiawah.
Hey there people,
Let's just let the "wrang it out" issue go for now since it seems to be causing distress and go back to the question of the fishing buddies story that Ennis tells Alma.
I always thought that the "rolling his own" comment was in reference to masturbation.
Several of us started saving threads that we liked to our hard drives. When the trolls started to delete the threads on the board, we got together and compiled our archives together. Someone was kind enough to host this archive. We can only use it to read what had been posted. We can't really interact with it anymore, in terms of adding posts. It's a nice resource for reading what others have said and theorized about the details of the movie. Here's the link to the archive. Enjoy. ;)
http://www.geocities.com/bbmarchive/
All users here have the ability to change their handle at any time. The reasons people do this vary considerably. I hope people will judge the messages written here based on their individual merit. I always remember people do change over time, and my hope is always that the change that occurs is positive.
That's my two cents anyway.
what old west type cowboy would admit to herding sheep for a living?
I always thought that the "rolling his own" comment was in reference to masturbation.
When one is rolling his own, it has to do with buying his own pouch of smoking tobacco and own cigarette papers and hand-rolling his own cigarettes.
Oh, my its really interesting how so many women think they understand everything there is to know about men, including how they think and what they do with themselves while they are thinking.
Ennis was a poor boy from a poor ranch in Wyoming..It's 1963. It has nothing to do with being an old west type cowboy. There's no way he disappeared without explanation or without writing to her for 3 months. They were planning to marry, Alma knew where Ennis was and what he was doing to earn the money so they could marry.
Well in Missouri in 1925 per my Dad and still in Montana and Wyoming 1985 per my own experiences the expression rolling your own could mean making your own cigarettes or male masturbation.
Hey, watch it, this is a friendly forum and misogynistic statements only make you look like the stereotypical gay male who hates women. Not only that it's a mean spirited manipulative snipe at the other poster whom you know to be female. You're the one who brought up internet etiquette this is bad form. As is dismissing other posters comments because you assume that English may not be the posters first language.
Lets keep it light, positive and keep it fun. Thanks
English is in fact not my first language either. Though I've only ever participated in English-speaking parts of BBM fandom, I've still bought the recently published local language translated version of Close Range. It's been published by a well-reputed publishing house that certainly can be expected to use experienced translators who'll manage to capture and preserve ambiguities and colloquial nuances necessary to the story in their translation.
"Wrang it out" is translated unambiguously into a word that *only* means "masturbated". "Rollling his own" is translated into an expression that means "doing manual work". Obviously the translator in question didn't have any doubt what the guys were talking about there, - and neither have I.
Since I took courses in Spanish and French in university, I also know that some expressions in those languages did not translate too well into English. In some cases, American English had no expression comparable to the original language because the expression was related to something that only a Native speaker would understand. So, rather than just attempt to mentally translate/interpret the original into English, it was better to just try to think in the original language. Sort of OT here; but, in 1990 I was a US Census Enumerator who did follow-up interviews at residences of those who improperly filled out their original forms, never mailed them in or never received them in the first place. While I did have the official Spanish language questionnaires, they were written in standardized Spanish for those who were actually studied Spanish grammar in classes which was in their first language.
But, most of the people with whom I talked were from Mexico and they did not have many formal classes in their native language. Since I had learned a number of "border-slang" expressions, which were called "bizcochos," "biscuits" in English translations, meaning they were hispanicized English words, I had to substitue the "biscuits" for the formal words so they would not what I was talking about.
But imagine him even having to say the word "Brokeback" to her, given all he must associate with that word. She would never guess anything from it, but it would feel like a violation to him. (The only time he ever does say it to anyone, Lureen immediately grasps its significance.) He keeps the information to himself less to avoid hurting her or to let something slip about his sexuality than to prevent Alma's awareness from intruding on his memories of that beautiful sacrosanct time.
I want to go back to this, because it's a really cool observation. I think it's really sad that Ennis never even says "Brokeback" to anyone -- not even to Jack. (Jack's the one who says "Brokeback got us good" and "All we've got is Brokeback Mountain," and asks Aguirre if he's got "anything up on Brokeback," and at least tells Lureen that he wants his ashes spread there. But Ennis? He never even says its name.)
I wonder if Ennis mentions being "fishing buddies" precisely because that's one of the few things that men do together, but that he never did with Jack? (Hunting... elk... Jack. Camping... tent... Jack. Rodeo... Jack. Riding horses... mare with a low startle point... Jack.)
This doesn't make you a language expert. I'm sure the ones who translated this story into Spanish or any other language, knew how to do their job.
(Hunting... elk... Jack. Camping... tent... Jack. Rodeo... Jack. Riding horses... mare with a low startle point... Jack.)
I want to go back to this, because it's a really cool observation. I think it's really sad that Ennis never even says "Brokeback" to anyone -- not even to Jack. (Jack's the one who says "Brokeback got us good" and "All we've got is Brokeback Mountain," and asks Aguirre if he's got "anything up on Brokeback," and at least tells Lureen that he wants his ashes spread there. But Ennis? He never even says its name.)
I wonder if Ennis mentions being "fishing buddies" precisely because that's one of the few things that men do together, but that he never did with Jack? (Hunting... elk... Jack. Camping... tent... Jack. Rodeo... Jack. Riding horses... mare with a low startle point... Jack.)
I want to go back to this, because it's a really cool observation. I think it's really sad that Ennis never even says "Brokeback" to anyone -- not even to Jack. (Jack's the one who says "Brokeback got us good" and "All we've got is Brokeback Mountain," and asks Aguirre if he's got "anything up on Brokeback," and at least tells Lureen that he wants his ashes spread there. But Ennis? He never even says its name.)
I wonder if Ennis mentions being "fishing buddies" precisely because that's one of the few things that men do together, but that he never did with Jack? (Hunting... elk... Jack. Camping... tent... Jack. Rodeo... Jack. Riding horses... mare with a low startle point... Jack.)
I do think Ennis didn't tell Alma anything of emotional importance to him about his summer job on the mountain; - but I do think he had to tell her something.
However, regarding the first one, I'm wondering -- does Ennis say Brokeback" when he's talking to the Twists about the ashes (I can't remember exactly! But isn't it something like, "I come by to offer to scatter Jack's ashes on Brokeback Mountain, like his wife said Jack wanted"?)
His exact words are:
I come by to say that if you want me to take his ashes up there on Brokeback like his wife said he wanted, I'd be proud to.
He also uses Brokeback in the conversation with Lureen. So he only ever says the name after jack is dead. :'(
Hey, thanks Starboardlight, that is a wonderful resource! I have already visited it, and it is rich beyond imagining. Questions though, stuff at Geocities has a tendency to get dead when the person who hosted it moves on, will BetterMost set up a contingency plan for this possibility? I certainly hope that we have BetterMost in our lives for a long long long time!
I am a relative newcomer to this wonderful community, (only saw BBM on April 14th if you can believe it) and I can't think of a more opportune time to ask this so here goes: I have gleaned from what I have read that the IMDb Brokeback Mountain messageboard was attended very early, in fact even before the movie was released. It got busy in Dec and Jan, and at some point (in Jan?) the serious posters branched off into a Secret Society called Pierre Tremblay, the name of the Assistant Producer of our beloved BBM. They did it to escape the demonic trolls, and membership in this elite group was by invitation only. Here comes the question: (actually 2 or 3 questions):
How and when did the trolls discover that you were all re-grouped at Chez Tremblay?
I understand Pierre Tremblay answered questions and contributed (at the beginning?). Can you point me in the direction of the threads he contributed to, answered questions, etc?
Actually if one of you original members would compose ashort-- no make that a long story about the beginnings of CT, the founding members, etc, the evolution of the whole Brokeback Mountain phenomenon, IMDB-to-BetterMost, I would find it exceedingly interesting.
please please please! and thanks!
I want to go back to this, because it's a really cool observation. I think it's really sad that Ennis never even says "Brokeback" to anyone -- not even to Jack. (Jack's the one who says "Brokeback got us good" and "All we've got is Brokeback Mountain," and asks Aguirre if he's got "anything up on Brokeback," and at least tells Lureen that he wants his ashes spread there. But Ennis? He never even says its name.)
I wonder if Ennis mentions being "fishing buddies" precisely because that's one of the few things that men do together, but that he never did with Jack? (Hunting... elk... Jack. Camping... tent... Jack. Rodeo... Jack. Riding horses... mare with a low startle point... Jack.)
Thanks, Mikaela! With the addition of "I'd be proud to," my interpretation -- that his use of the word is an acknowlegement -- makes even more sense to me. It implies a contrasting "I was ashamed of our relationship before." And if he says it to Lureen, that underscores it also, because it's that line that tips off Lureen about their relationship.
It turns out the script (that I referred to in replying to you) has him saying he'd be "proud to", but in the film he actually says he'll be "happy to"! Either way I think what he says certainly is an acknowledgement - though using the word "happy" instead of "proud" seems oxymoronic and very unexpected in this context.... Perhaps it acknowledges how returning to Brokeback to fulfill Jack's last wish would set his own mind at rest a little, in addition to encompassing the "proud to" meaning.
At any rate - "Brokeback" and "happy" so close together in that one sentence of his carry a world of meaning and remembrance!
I truly do think that Ennis wanted to live with Jack, but all of his fears, etc. held him back. Am I being too simplistic here? It seems important to the romance of the film to believe that on some level Ennis wished he could fulfill Jack's dream. Maybe he only gets this after Jack's death... but it really worries me that Jack would think that Ennis didn's want the dream of the cow and calf operation too. I don't sense Ennis's resistance at the level of "want".
It is really interesting that both Ennis and Jack never mentioned the fact that they were on Brokeback together that summer to there respective wives. Maybe this has something to do with Ang Lee's statement that he sees their relationship as "something private and precious and they cannot articulate..." Primarily here both Ennis and Jack (on their own) make gestures to keep the circumstances of their summer as private as possible to preserve the precious feeling about it. (Try saying the last half of that sentence 10 times fast. lol). So, clearly they can't articulate anything about this for a huge number of reasons (either to their wives or in their own heads often)... and all of this emerges in the form of Ennis's little lie. "We were fishing buddies." It's amazing how something so seemingly simple can become sooo complex.
His exact words are:
I come by to say that if you want me to take his ashes up there on Brokeback like his wife said he wanted, I'd be proud to.
He also uses Brokeback in the conversation with Lureen. So he only ever says the name after jack is dead. :'(
But I think the point you made works in either case -- Ennis is sort of quietly acknowledging to Lureen that there was something important between him and Jack, even though neither one says anything directly about it.
Again, I read somewhere in this thread about Ennis’ use of “Brokeback” after Jack died as a way to acknowledge his love for Jack. Although I had never thought of it in those terms, it makes sense. Ennis used it twice … with Lureen (which confirmed her suspicions that Jack was gay) and with Jack’s parents (which reinforced the knowledge that Jack was gay). After that, however, he has a postcard of BBM in the closet with the shirts.
I was just thinking about this yesterday. In the short story, when he orders a postcard of Brokeback from the gift-shop lady, symbolically it's a little like Ennis coming out, in a way. Albeit in code that she wouldn't possibly understand.
I think it helps show that the bonds of their intimacy stayed very intact even from a distance and shows a tacit agreement that these things are meant for the two of them alone (until Jack is dead of course).
<< Scene: Jack tosses corncobs into a pot kneeling beside a flowing stream beginning to prepare a meal and is overjoyed at the sight of Ennis approaching. >>
Bookend: Jack stomps away from the flowing stream after a meal, exasperated with Ennis, who is washing the empty pot (and who subsequently loses his grip on it).
Amanda, thanks for bumping. I was behind the times with this thread. Just read the last four pages.
Jane, re the beginnings of the Pierre Tremblay board: I so strongly want it known for sure that it was never meant to be exclusive. I invited many IMDb BBM board regulars over to it. If a person loved BBM, played well with others, had been around long enough that in our paranoia we didn't think they were a troll, they got invited. And if we thought they could keep the secret off of the main board.
Bookends - I just noticed a new (to me) one tonight while nakymaton, Front Ranger, Meryl and I were watching it together in chat. In the Signal bar, Jack and Ennis alternate glancing at each other without making eye contact. In Ennis's trailer, Ennis and Alma Jr. alternate glancing at each other without making eye contact.