BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum

Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond => Brokeback Mountain Open Forum => Topic started by: Brown Eyes on August 18, 2008, 11:49:11 pm

Title: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on August 18, 2008, 11:49:11 pm

Something today got me thinking about the significance that the Jack/ Jimbo scene might have in the context of the main dilemma that Ennis and Jack face in coming to terms with their relationship.

One thing we don't see Jack and Ennis struggling with is finding each other.  They encounter numerous obstacles to their relationship as we well know, but finding the ideal partner for one another comes to them easily and is basically not an issue.  From the very beginning in my reactions to BBM, I've always felt that Jack and Ennis were very lucky in many ways.  And, I think I'd count two of the main ways that they're lucky as (1) that they found each other so young and (2) that they had a passionate relationship (even with all it's flaws, shortcomings and disappointments as a relationship... in terms of passion it's a lot more than many people ever experience - gay or straight).

So, it occurs to me that the Jimbo scene (and maybe to a lesser or more subtle extent, the Randall encounter) is important in BBM for illustrating how incredibly frustrating and hard it can be as a gay person to find a partner when you're looking for one.  The odds are always stacked against you in terms of percentages (when gauging whether a desirable person might be similarly gay or bisexual) and, in Jack's particular circumstance, where he has no gay bar to visit (i.e. a place where the guess work is taken out of the equation a bit) the frustration of finding a male partner in his rural/ rodeo world is made pretty clear.

It's interesting to me, because BBM focuses, on the whole, on other kinds of dilemmas with regards to gay characters accepting themselves and accepting their relationship, etc., etc.  We see the desparation that Jack and Ennis feel embroiled in their relationship.  BBM only skims the surface of this other kind of frustration and desparation that can be felt by a gay or lesbian character/ individual... meaning the true dilemma of finding a partner (let alone one's ideal partner) to begin with.  So, the more I think about it, the more I think the inclusion of the Jimbo scene was a brilliant move by the filmmakers in dealing with this subject just a bit.

(Of course there are lots of other ways that the Jimbo scene is significant... the black hat/ white hat interactions in the background, the question about whether the folks playing pool constitute a threat for Jack, etc.  But, I feel like this aspect of the scene... the frustration over finding a partner... hasn't been discussed so much in this context.)








Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Gabreya on August 19, 2008, 12:08:55 am
I agree. Ennis and Jack loved eachother so much that it was hard to love someone else the same way they did for eachother. Yeah, that scene was to signify how Jack really never got over Ennis and never will.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Katie77 on August 19, 2008, 03:10:59 am
I think Jack was putting out "feelers" towards Jimbo......buy him a drink, get talkin, and see if his gaydar picks up on anything.
 
I always feel that when Jimbo goes back to his mates playing pool, that he has told them, that he felt Jack was trying to pick him up. They all seem to look over at him in a curious way. Makes me think, whether Jack may have had a reputaton around the rodeo circuit of approaching the boys. And he seemed a bit OUT of the general crowd, not part of the group, no one to drink with. Was that because the rodeo crowd had picked up on him?

And when he got so shitty, with the bartender, it was like, "Im sick of the lot of you"......

And what was the comment those blokes made, when they were in the office with Laureen and they recognised Jack from the rodeos?......

Seemed like the only time Jack was really happy and comfortable was when he was with Ennis...and the same for Ennis when he was with Jack. No matter how much they tried to fit in or settle into all the other parts of their life, it just didn't work out.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: retropian on August 19, 2008, 03:58:34 am
Interesting points. I had always thought that the Jimbo scene represented Jacks attempt to find a potential substitute for Ennis. Consciously or not Jack approaches someone who physically resembles Ennis. At least his attire is the same, so maybe he's the same too? I think Jacks failure with Jimbo symbolizes his failure to replace Ennis. It also is another example of Jacks refusal to quit and willingness to take a risk.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Katie77 on August 19, 2008, 04:41:21 am
Do you really think he was looking for a replacement for Ennis, or just someone who he could have a drink with which may lead to more.

At the time Jack approached Jimbo, it was during the four years that he did not have any contact with Ennis, so he did not know if there was ever going to be any future with Ennis at that time.

I think the scene shows us, that during that time, Jack was approaching other men, and maybe sometimes he got lucky, but this time he did not.
Maybe he just wanted to be "one of the boys", wanted someone to have a drink and a chat with. Thats why when eventually Laureen started flirting with him and paid him some attention, he grabbed it, even though it wasnt exactly the gender he was really looking  for.

I do think with Randall, that that was a replacement, or more the opportunity to have someone nearby who he could "camp" out with or go "fishing" with, and maybe have a future with, as he had told his father, that they might move up there.

If times were different and opportunities more frequent, I think Jack would have been very promiscuous. The "high altitude fucks, once or twice a year" with Ennis were not enough for Jack. He needed more sex than that,  and if he could have got it he would have. And when he didn't get it for free, he went to Mexico.

But I doubt if he ever would have had the feelings and love for anyone else other than Ennis.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on August 19, 2008, 09:30:56 am


I think that during these 4 years before the reunion that Jack was trying to find an Ennis replacement.  I doubt he had much of an inkling that the relationship with Ennis would be rekindled during most of those 4 years.

In the past there's been discussion about Jimbo being somewhat similar to Ennis in appearance (he wears a white cowboy hat, wears an Ennis-type shirt, has a similar build, etc.)... which to me signals that Jack was looking for a substitute Ennis.  Similarly, in the Mexico scene when he walks down the alley way, he's in fact following another man who could be seen as a pale substitute for Ennis (the other man has a white hat on, pale clothing, etc.).  His motivation at the time of the Mexico scene I think is much different than the Jimbo scene.  In the Jimbo scene Jack probably feels that he's mostly completely autonomous and independent.  In the Mexico and in the Randall scenes he knows he's embroiled in a complicated relationship with Ennis.

In the Jimbo scene, I don't think it at all trying to be "just one of the boys" hanging out for a beer.  I think that he was trying his hardest to flirt and to try to pick Jimbo up under the uncomfortable glare of the bartender watching.  To me it looks like Jake Gyllenhaal is working his eyes for all they're worth in that scene to try to convey the idea of flirting.



Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: mariez on August 19, 2008, 02:41:23 pm
... But, I feel like this aspect of the scene... the frustration over finding a partner... hasn't been discussed so much in this context.)

Thank you for this very thoughtful post, Amanda.  You've given me an additional perspective, and I always like that!  I'd always thought of the "Jimbo scene" as the screenwriters' way of inserting the information we get from this little bit of conversation from the reunion as written in the short story:

...You do it with other guys? Jack?”

“Shit no,” said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own.


Of course, this brings to my mind one of the differences between the ss and the film.  Jack struck out with Jimbo in the film. According to ss, he didn't always strike out, but if someone hadn't read the story, I'm not sure they would get that impression from the film alone.

Marie
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Mandy21 on August 19, 2008, 03:07:35 pm
I always interpreted that scene as an act of humiliation from "society" towards Jack.  A judgment on him.  And he left, feeling lower than low.  And then the next night he goes back, and it's an entirely different game, and all of a sudden, he's the star quarterback, so to speak, and the prom queen is all over him.  I thought that the point of those two scenes was the dichotomy of how your life can change, from hell to heaven, in the blink of an eye.  Even though it wasn't exactly hell, and even though she didn't turn out to be heaven for him.  It was just like meeting Ennis.  Jack was just plodding along, scraping by, living without real love day after day after day, and then -- BOOM -- Ennis comes into view.  And everything Jack ever knew before all his life, has changed irrevocably.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: rlh03 on August 19, 2008, 03:53:24 pm
I often wondered, too, about this scene.  Ennis was gone, Jack wasn't sure where; but I think he knew how much he loved Ennis, even then.  He was heartsick, being alone, always  thinking of Ennis, Ennis, Ennis.  Maybe he was trying to get luchy in the Jimbo scene, and there were probably other scenes the same. but I think he was really in the throes of despair.  These others, when they were, satisfied a physical thing, but also let him feel and imagine for just those brief moments, that  he was again with his Ennis.  And once it was over and  he was alone again, he was alone still.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Katie77 on August 19, 2008, 06:23:24 pm
Maybe its just an explanation showing, that he was not having much luck with the boys, and why he finally ended up with a woman.

He had probably taken the Jimbo thing as how it was always gonna be, if he wanted a man.....it was all too hard..(excuse the pun)....so when Laureen started flirting, and it was so much easier, he fell into it.

Two such different nights....one of rejection and almost humiiliation with Jimbo.......the next night, handed to him on a platter.

As he danced with Laureen, and the song was playing "No ones gonna love you like me".....Jack was daydreaming about someone else, another time, another place, but realized that in the real world, this is what was expected and this was how it was gonna have to be.....
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on August 19, 2008, 09:35:52 pm
Maybe its just an explanation showing, that he was not having much luck with the boys, and why he finally ended up with a woman.

He had probably taken the Jimbo thing as how it was always gonna be, if he wanted a man.....it was all too hard..(excuse the pun)....so when Laureen started flirting, and it was so much easier, he fell into it.

Two such different nights....one of rejection and almost humiiliation with Jimbo.......the next night, handed to him on a platter.

As he danced with Laureen, and the song was playing "No ones gonna love you like me".....Jack was daydreaming about someone else, another time, another place, but realized that in the real world, this is what was expected and this was how it was gonna have to be.....


Yes, that's what I mean about part of the significance of the Jimbo scene... illustrating how hard it can be to find a same-sex partner outside of the context of any kind of real gay community.  Even someone as charming and attractive as Jack was finding it both frustrating and threatening to make the kind of advances necessary to seek out a partner in his rural/ rodeo community. 

I think the scene with Lureen does illustrate how relatively easy it was to find a partner in a heterosexual context.  He could directly ask the bartender for advice about the woman of interest, he could dance in public with her and their flirty banter didn't need to be coded or clandestine.

Also, part of the reason there's such a point made with the bartender about the wealth of Lureen's family seems to be suggesting that Jack really was calculating a level of financial comfort for himself there.  I think he was truly weighing the idea of at least the notion of material comfort if he knew he wouldn't be happy with the partner involved.

Anne Hathaway described her interpretation of the Jack/Lureen relationship as a "marriage of convenience" and I think it was just that right from this very first moment when Jack is thinking things over prior to her advances.  I think L.D. is hostile towards Jack for many reasons, and one of them surely is that he probably perceived Jack to be a gold-digger.

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 19, 2008, 09:37:40 pm
Great thread subject Atz !

To me, that scene is many things !

Jimbo represents maybe danger, which is unwanted by Jack!!

Isn't Jimbo dangerous ?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on August 19, 2008, 09:47:14 pm

No, I don't think Jimbo is dangerous. 

Sometimes I even wonder if Jack was right about Jimbo.  Jack very well may have known more about Jimbo to encourage him to approach him at the bar.  And, there's a moment when Jack and Jimbo lock eyes for a second where there's something interesting in Jimbo's eyes.  It seems possible that Jimbo rejects Jack because the bartender is hovering so close and watching so close.  And, he may have also been nervous because there were so many other people around (again my point about how hard it can be to find and connect with a partner as a single gay person).

Jimbo may genuinely have been rejecting Jack because he was straight... but he may also have just been another scared gay man.

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 19, 2008, 10:01:07 pm
Atz, may I disagree!

Jimbo is obviously straight and dangerous since he tells the others that Jack is gay ?

That is the way I see it: danger !

Au revoir,
hugs!
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Katie77 on August 19, 2008, 10:01:51 pm
No, I don't think Jimbo is dangerous. 

Sometimes I even wonder if Jack was right about Jimbo.  Jack very well may have known more about Jimbo to encourage him to approach him at the bar.  And, there's a moment when Jack and Jimbo lock eyes for a second where there's something interesting in Jimbo's eyes.  It seems possible that Jimbo rejects Jack because the bartender is hovering so close and watching so close.  And, he may have also been nervous because there were so many other people around (again my point about how hard it can be to find and connect with a partner as a single gay person).

Jimbo may genuinely have been rejecting Jack because he was straight... but he may also have just been another scared gay man.



I think you hit the nail on the head there Atz..........surely back then there would be some talk or curiosity about some of the men at those rodeos, and if Jack had heard something about Jimbo, he thought he would try to chat him up, but Jimbo certainly did not want to take up with Jack in front of all his pool playin mates.

When Jimbo says...."if I took a drink of every cowboy who wanted to buy me a drink....."...was he maybe telling Jack, that others have hit on him before with no luck......

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 19, 2008, 10:05:35 pm
May I add that you gals are not gay men!

I am a gay man and find that Jimbo is making an afront... by talking to the others there; and, is therefore sending out dangerous talk about Jack !!

Au revoir,
hugs!
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: optom3 on August 20, 2008, 10:04:04 am
No, I don't think Jimbo is dangerous. 

Sometimes I even wonder if Jack was right about Jimbo.  Jack very well may have known more about Jimbo to encourage him to approach him at the bar.  And, there's a moment when Jack and Jimbo lock eyes for a second where there's something interesting in Jimbo's eyes.  It seems possible that Jimbo rejects Jack because the bartender is hovering so close and watching so close.  And, he may have also been nervous because there were so many other people around (again my point about how hard it can be to find and connect with a partner as a single gay person).

Jimbo may genuinely have been rejecting Jack because he was straight... but he may also have just been another scared gay man.



That is exactly what I have always thought.Jack picked the right man, but in completely the wrong circumstances.To try and pick up a man in a bar full of macho type men
right under the eye of a very suspicious barman, was reckless.But then Jack's character is reckless.

I suspect to cover his own tracks/sexuality, Jimbo goes back to the men and is undoubtedly less than pleasant about Jack, to allay any suspicion, we already know it was a very hard time and place to be gay.

I assume that a lot of men were like Ennis terrified of the consequences, Proulx herself said that the idea 1st came to her by seeing a man in a bar, totally on his own.

I sense no danger, just the humiliation of Jack, by Jimbo to cover himself. Jack  subjects himself to humiliation on many an occassion by going to Mexico and paying for sex.
That too is a big difference between him and Ennis, Jack seems to have a much higher libido, but after the reunion scene, I think for Jack the sex with other men is just that.He can separate sex from love, in the way a lot of men, gay or straight can.

I often find myself wondering, had they got together permanantly, would Jack have remained sexually faithful. He seems character wise, to need the extra edge.
Jack's gaydar for want of a better word seems prety accurate, he sees what lies beneath with Ennis and even with Randal. I see no reason why a gay man should be any less astute than a straight man or woman. Most people know from subtle gestures etc, when soemone is interested in them.
So probably right call, but foolhardy place to attempt it.
If Jack can spot the sexuality, in someone as closed as Ennis, I suspect he can spot a less closed gay man at 50 paces.But as always with Jack, there is that need to be reckless.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 20, 2008, 10:09:51 am
Merci optom !

Since you finish with Jack as being reckless by asking Jimbo, isn't Jimbo more reckless by talking to the others about what Jack was after ?

Jimbo, surely puts Jack in danger ?

Au revoir,
hugs!
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on August 20, 2008, 10:19:34 am
Thanks for the great post Fiona. :)

I do think that Jack had really good gaydar (demonstrated at least twice with Ennis and Randall).  So, I think it remains an open question what he knew or perceived about Jimbo.

If Jack and Ennis had gotten together on a permanent basis, I do think Jack would have been capable of being faithful.  I think his wanderings (Mexico and Randall) that we see later in his relationship with Ennis were purely out of desparation.  And, I get the sense that those experiences were making Jack quite bitter... on top of his frustrations about Ennis.  My sense is that Jack was such a romantic about Ennis that a permanent relationship with him would have been very satisfying for Jack.  I think his affair with Randall and obviously the encounter(s) with prostitutes were purely to scratch a physical itch.  I don't think he would have probably had to worry about that issue if he was actually living with Ennis.


I agree that the original idea that Proulx had for BBM - the old man alone in the bar - might have really interesting relevance to all the bar scenes we see in the film.


And, as for the Jimbo scene and "danger"... I think we may be encouraged to wonder and worry a little bit about what the people around the pool table are saying.  I think we are supposed to not really know if they're a threat or not.  They don't really do anything other than glance Jack's way... and depending on one's point of view that can be seen as threatening or just idle curiosity on their part.  This movie is so much about ambiguous perception.  I'm sure someone of Ennis's mindset would immediately perceive a threat, while others wouldn't be so inclined to worry.

We don't know what Jimbo said to the people at the pool table.  It could have been something very innocent.

May I add that you gals are not gay men!

I am a gay man and find that Jimbo is making an afront... by talking to the others there; and, is therefore sending out dangerous talk about Jack !!

Artiste, I am a gay woman.  

That's one of the reasons I started this thread... because I understand a bit of the difficulty that Jack encounters in locating a partner when he wants one in the context of his everyday life and in the context of the opportunities that exist for him.  To me the most interesting thing about the Jimbo scene, is that this is one moment where we see him in a social context while he's essentially a single gay man.  This scene seems to acknowledge a sometimes difficult aspect of gay life that Jack and Ennis don't experience in the context of their relationship.  They have no trouble finding one another intitially.  While the basic issue of finding a partner can be so difficult in other contexts.


And, as for the issue of recklessness... I would call it more a fearlessness. 

Jack's a bull rider.  That means he's willing to put his life in danger to do what he loves.  To be a bull rider you need to know you could be killed everytime you get on the back of a bull... and still be enthusiastic about doing it anyway.




Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 20, 2008, 10:34:27 am
Merci atz!

Your post is well versed now and also appreciated !!

You say:
         Artiste, I am a gay woman. 

         

.........

Atz: yes, I know and I am glad that you are a gay woman!

And may I ask: Doesn't the gay women cruise differently from straight women?

And find that maybe a gay woman having cruised a straight woman, that that could be dangerous ?
.........

Atz, and may I add: I am a gay man, and wish to cruise again as I did in the past, but I now know that if I happen to cruise a straight man, that that could be indeed dangerous !! I have seen straight with knives !!

Jimbo here is, to me, obviously, a straight man or a con artist ?? A straight man would not talk to other men, about being cruised by a gay guy ? - Not unless, that straight man is bad, I say!

Au revoir,
hugs!




Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on August 20, 2008, 10:51:08 am


I don't usually find it dangerous to try to connect with a potential partner, but I do find it can be very awkward outside of the context of a specifically gay environment.  Guaging a situation can be very, very tricky... and is something Jack needed to learn to do in the context of his social environment.  And, as many of us have said in this thread... Jack seems to have very good gaydar in this regard.  This is one of the things that makes the Jimbo scene interesting, because nothing is entirely clear cut.

To me this awkwardness is what Jack experiences... he's a bit embarassed by Jimbo's rejection and he's frurstrated by the bartender hovering and making annoying comments.
To me that's the main reason he leaves the bar.  He may have had a slight worry about what was going on around the pool table too. 

But, again, we really have no idea what Jimbo says to them or why they're looking in Jack's direction.  I do find it somewhat unlikely that Jimbo would go right up to them and tell them what just happened between himself and Jack.


Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 20, 2008, 11:00:32 am
Merci atz!

Because I am late to go do my creations, I will be very brief for now OK!

Thanks for elaborating well again !
<
Atz: I agree with most of your points, but have to disagree strongly with some! That I will elaborate later, if you like; for example: stressing again that Jimbo, as a danger, forecasts Jack futur: death, even !

Au revoir,
hugs!  P.S. Didn't Jack was told to become a pederast ? Maybe, I got the wrong word... here and will add that too to explain in other posts... if you like !
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on August 20, 2008, 11:31:09 am
  P.S. Didn't Jack was told to become a pederast ? Maybe, I got the wrong word... here and will add that too to explain in other posts... if you like !

No.  There is no evidence of discussion of this topic whatsoever in BBM.  If you want to discuss this topic that you mention, please start another thread.





This thread is about the issue of Jack seeking out male partners in the context of his community during the years before he reunites with Ennis.  It's about how difficult finding a partner could be.  And, the Jimbo scene is the moment in the film when this issue is addressed.




Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Mandy21 on August 20, 2008, 11:41:46 am
Hey Amanda, this is an interesting thread, thanks for starting it.  Just a couple quick questions, wondering about relationships and meeting people.  I'm not sure if you ever had heterosexual relationships in your life, but if you did, did you find them to be difficult to begin, as well?  I mean sometimes it's as easy as saying something clever to a cute guy in the produce section at the neighborhood store and before you know it, you're boyfriend and girlfriend, but also sometimes you can try for years to get somebody to return your love again -- somebody whose heart you broke in the past -- and fail.  I've never tried to pick up a woman in my life, but I would think it would be an equally tricky and unpredictable guessing game.  For that matter, what if I was to try to pick up some random guy, and he was actually gay -- would he be offended that I couldn't sense that about him just by looking at him?  Just seems like it's a slippery slope, all around, and as I've gotten older, I find myself attracted or drawn to or even noticing, less and less people when I'm out and about.  Don't know why that is.  Perhaps as you age, you lose that youthful bravado and confidence to approach and take that first leap.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on August 20, 2008, 11:55:13 am
Hey Amanda, this is an interesting thread, thanks for starting it.  Just a couple quick questions, wondering about relationships and meeting people.  I'm not sure if you ever had heterosexual relationships in your life, but if you did, did you find them to be difficult to begin, as well?  I mean sometimes it's as easy as saying something clever to a cute guy in the produce section at the neighborhood store and before you know it, you're boyfriend and girlfriend, but also sometimes you can try for years to get somebody to return your love again -- somebody whose heart you broke in the past -- and fail.  I've never tried to pick up a woman in my life, but I would think it would be an equally tricky and unpredictable guessing game.  For that matter, what if I was to try to pick up some random guy, and he was actually gay -- would he be offended that I couldn't sense that about him just by looking at him?  Just seems like it's a slippery slope, all around, and as I've gotten older, I find myself attracted or drawn to or even noticing, less and less people when I'm out and about.  Don't know why that is.  Perhaps as you age, you lose that youthful bravado and confidence to approach and take that first leap.

Heya Mandy!

No, I've never had a heterosexual relationship and I've not tried to pick up a guy before. 

And, yes, I'm sure that there's a lot of anxiety and it can be very difficult to approach someone you're interested in a heterosexual context.  I'm certainly not implying that finding an ideal partner is easy for straight people.

But, the odds are stacked against a gay encounter to a greater degree... simply based on numbers and percentages.

I've never in my life met a girlfriend outside the context of a specifically gay environment (either a gay bar, a gay discussion group, my all-female college where there was a ton of lesbian socializing/ parties, etc.).  In daily life, it truly, truly can feel like it would be similar to finding a needle in a haystack to even encounter someone who's (a) attrative enough to want to approach and (b) gay.  In daily life it's just so hard to tell what someone's story is.  And, I think there are far fewer opportunities for the kind of casual grocery store encounter that you mention simply because it's so hard to tell how a person would react to an advance like that.

This is why Jack's dilemma is so interesting to me.  In the four years prior to the reunion he is essentially operating as a single gay man trying to find a partner (since his hopes about Ennis are probably very slim during those four years).  Jack doesn't have anywhere to go in his community that would provide him with a gay environment.  So, he has to have the very awkward types of encounters that we see in the Jimbo scene.




Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Katie77 on August 20, 2008, 03:53:28 pm
I just had a thought between the connection of the Jimbo scene one night followed by the Laureen scene the following night......if we are to assume that they were in fact on two consecutive nights....

If talk had got around the rodeo crowd about Jack, and his eye for men, well no doubt Laureen would have heard that talk too.  So, I'm wondering if, because of her brazeness and forwardness, was she maybe one of these women who think, that she can turn a gay man straight. After all it was her who was doing the flirting and made the approach to Jack. 

She was probably a natural flirt anyway, but if she had heard the rumours about Jack, then he would be a challenge and a bit of a trophy. A bit like, "well he might like men, but I'll give him a woman he wont resist".

Consequently, in the following years, if and when she ever had her suspicions about Jack and Ennis, she would not have been completely surprised about the fact, and realized that all those rumours back then on the rodeo cirucuit were true after all, and accepted Jack's lifestyle.

Maybe she even set up the meeting with him and Randall. She had obviosly became good friends with LaShawn and maybe she detected something from what she had said, and thought, that there may be a similarity between Randall and Jack.

As has been mentioned, Laureen was pretty street wise around men, what with the rodeo circuit and the business she was in. She would not have been bliind to what was going on around her, and she would be hearing things that most women would not be hearing.

I agree with Amanda, I like Laureen. I think she called a spade a spade, and I think she did that with Jack too.

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: optom3 on August 20, 2008, 06:19:24 pm
I just had a thought between the connection of the Jimbo scene one night followed by the Laureen scene the following night......if we are to assume that they were in fact on two consecutive nights....

If talk had got around the rodeo crowd about Jack, and his eye for men, well no doubt Laureen would have heard that talk too.  So, I'm wondering if, because of her brazeness and forwardness, was she maybe one of these women who think, that she can turn a gay man straight. After all it was her who was doing the flirting and made the approach to Jack. 

She was probably a natural flirt anyway, but if she had heard the rumours about Jack, then he would be a challenge and a bit of a trophy. A bit like, "well he might like men, but I'll give him a woman he wont resist".

Consequently, in the following years, if and when she ever had her suspicions about Jack and Ennis, she would not have been completely surprised about the fact, and realized that all those rumours back then on the rodeo cirucuit were true after all, and accepted Jack's lifestyle.

Maybe she even set up the meeting with him and Randall. She had obviosly became good friends with LaShawn and maybe she detected something from what she had said, and thought, that there may be a similarity between Randall and Jack.

As has been mentioned, Laureen was pretty street wise around men, what with the rodeo circuit and the business she was in. She would not have been bliind to what was going on around her, and she would be hearing things that most women would not be hearing.

I agree with Amanda, I like Laureen. I think she called a spade a spade, and I think she did that with Jack too.



Lureen maybe having heard something about Jack on the circuit and wanting to "convert" him is such a good idea. It has always struck me as odd that a woman as beautiful as her would be sat all on her own.It is almost as if she is setting the whole thing up.
When I was getting divorced from my 1st husband, I lost count of the number of girls, friends and otherwise who thought I had just failed and they would be able to turn him on to women.
Never did work, but you can't tell some folk, not even when we went out, and he was with his boyfriend did they stop.We had and still do have a very good friendship.
I do think Lureen was confident enough in herself and maybe even conceited to think she could convert Jack.
It could also be the reason she becomes so brittle later on, because having initially asumed she had turned Jack, she starts to get an inkling that she probably hasn't.
I am sure in the missing Parka scene, all the muttering she does, is because she knows full well why Ennis never comes to Childress and why Jack is prepared to drive for 14 hours, for a fishing trip.
This opens up a whole new perspective on things.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Gabreya on August 20, 2008, 07:41:01 pm
I think Jack was putting out "feelers" towards Jimbo......buy him a drink, get talkin, and see if his gaydar picks up on anything.
 
I always feel that when Jimbo goes back to his mates playing pool, that he has told them, that he felt Jack was trying to pick him up. They all seem to look over at him in a curious way. Makes me think, whether Jack may have had a reputaton around the rodeo circuit of approaching the boys. And he seemed a bit OUT of the general crowd, not part of the group, no one to drink with. Was that because the rodeo crowd had picked up on him?

And when he got so shitty, with the bartender, it was like, "Im sick of the lot of you"......

And what was the comment those blokes made, when they were in the office with Laureen and they recognised Jack from the rodeos?......

Seemed like the only time Jack was really happy and comfortable was when he was with Ennis...and the same for Ennis when he was with Jack. No matter how much they tried to fit in or settle into all the other parts of their life, it just didn't work out.

Yeah.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 21, 2008, 09:33:06 am
Atz, doesn't the waiter tells jack to become a pederastre ? What's his words?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on August 21, 2008, 10:09:00 am


The bartender asks if Jack has ever tried calf-roping, which is a rodeo event.  It requires a very skilled, trained and usually expensive horse... which is why Jack gets upset, saying that he couldn't afford to do that.



Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: optom3 on August 21, 2008, 10:24:12 am

The bartender asks if Jack has ever tried calf-roping, which is a rodeo event.  It requires a very skilled, trained and usually expensive horse... which is why Jack gets upset, saying that he couldn't afford to do that.





I find that bit very sad.He has just suffered one humiliation , then is asked about calf-roping and just says, do I look like I can afford that.The whole of that scene seems designed to belittle Jack.
I used to feel more sorry for Ennis, but the more I think of Jacks' optimism being continually quashed, the more my heart goes out to him.How he kept the candle alight for so long is amazing really.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on August 21, 2008, 10:45:48 am


I certainly feel sympathy for the predicaments and perspectives of both Ennis and Jack.

But, to me Jack's story makes me particularly heartbroken.  I feel like watching him get rejected and struggle throughout the film is a little bit like watching a puppy get kicked over and over again.  Yes, this whole Jimbo scene is very hard to watch.

I think Jack is annoyed by the bartender not only for making that irritating suggestion, but also probably because the bartender hovering made it particularly hard for him to speak with Jimbo.  Jimbo clearly kept glancing over at the bartender as Jack was talking to him.
He probably felt that the bartender played at least some role in him striking out with Jimbo here.


Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: optom3 on August 21, 2008, 11:01:28 am

I certainly feel sympathy for the predicaments and perspectives of both Ennis and Jack.

But, to me Jack's story makes me particularly heartbroken.  I feel like watching him get rejected and struggle throughout the film is a little bit like watching a puppy get kicked over and over again.  Yes, this whole Jimbo scene is very hard to watch.

I think Jack is annoyed by the bartender not only for making that irritating suggestion, but also probably because the bartender hovering made it particularly hard for him to speak with Jimbo.  Jimbo clearly kept glancing over at the bartender as Jack was talking to him.
He probably felt that the bartender played at least some role in him striking out with Jimbo here.




OMG that is exactly how it is. It is just like watching a puppy being kicked over and over.Particularly with Jack and those massive soulful puppy dog eyes of his. So full of hope and love me please one minute, then another kicking and the confusion, why did you do that, I am only trying to please and love you.
Thankyou for that, it resonates perfectly, with how I now feel about Jack, yet could not articulate.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Marge_Innavera on August 21, 2008, 11:40:05 am
I think you hit the nail on the head there Atz..........surely back then there would be some talk or curiosity about some of the men at those rodeos, and if Jack had heard something about Jimbo, he thought he would try to chat him up, but Jimbo certainly did not want to take up with Jack in front of all his pool playin mates.

When Jimbo says...."if I took a drink of every cowboy who wanted to buy me a drink....."...was he maybe telling Jack, that others have hit on him before with no luck......

That would answer one thing that's kind of puzzled me about this scene, which is why Jack would zero in on this guy to begin with. I'd thought he was just taking advantage of the fact that Jimbo has helped him out -- using it as a reason to offer to buy him a drink.

Another thing maybe someone here can shed some light on: is there any social barrier between rodeo riders and rodeo clowns?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on August 21, 2008, 12:14:08 pm
That would answer one thing that's kind of puzzled me about this scene, which is why Jack would zero in on this guy to begin with. I'd thought he was just taking advantage of the fact that Jimbo has helped him out -- using it as a reason to offer to buy him a drink.

Another thing maybe someone here can shed some light on: is there any social barrier between rodeo riders and rodeo clowns?

Heya Marge! 
I think you're right that Jack decided to approach Jimbo because he helped him.  When you think about it... it would have provided a very comfortable and reasonable reason to approach him.  When he first looks over to Jimbo and sees him sitting alone, it's almost like a light goes on in Jack's eyes and facial expression, recognizing a possible opportunity.  I think Jack was often very smart about how he dealt with men he was interested in.

I think his interest in approaching Jimbo may have been multifaceted.  He may have had an inkling that Jimbo might have been receptive to an advance from a man, and I still think it's very important that Jimbo bears a slight physical resemblance to Ennis.


As far as rodeo culture goes... I think there's a clear hierarchy when it comes to the events (bull riding vs. saddle bronc riding, etc.).  My sense about rodeo clowns (or "bull fighters" as a person in Jimbo's position would be called today) is that their status has changed over the years.  I think now they're recognized as very skilled and definitely brave athletes and also people who are very good and relating to the animals.  Despite their title "bull fighter" they only distract the bulls so that a rider can get out of the way when he dismounts or falls off... they don't literally "fight" with the bull.  The bull fighters usually know all the bulls by name and have a sort of interesting chemistry with the bulls they interact with.  There are genuine clowns (trained, actual clowns) that entertain the crowd at a rodeo or PBR event these days... but they rarely if ever get involved with distracting the bulls (which is what the bull fighters do now).   So, the old fashioned job of a rodeo clown has been divided up into two different positions... the actual clown for entertainment and the bull fighter that works with the bulls.


Back in the 60s in Texas, I really don't know how a rodeo clown would be perceived.  Although the tone in Jack's voice seems fairly (and genuinely) reverential when he says "best damned rodeo clown I ever worked with." 

Even back then the riders must have valued the rodeo clowns because they really did depend on them to save their lives sometimes.

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on August 21, 2008, 12:48:42 pm

Here are some pics of current day bull fighters and the PBR's most famous clown, Flint Rasmussen  (they also call him a "barrelman" sometimes).


<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/5219683-8bb.jpg" border="0" /> (http://www.divshare.com/download/5219683-8bb)
bullfighter on left, Flint the clown on right

Cool pictures of bull fighters working:

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/5219741-e5c.jpg" border="0" /> (http://www.divshare.com/download/5219741-e5c)
A classic stance for a bull fighter during a ride.

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/5219679-f07.jpg" border="0" /> (http://www.divshare.com/download/5219679-f07)
Helping a rider whose hand is stuck in his rope after being bucked off.

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/5219681-968.jpg" border="0" /> (http://www.divshare.com/download/5219681-968)
Getting launched in the air in front of a bull as a rider dismounts.

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/3988503-dc5.jpg" border="0" /> (http://www.divshare.com/download/3988503-dc5)
bullfighter standing out of the way, waiting for a ride to finish (the bull fighter here is Shorty Gorham and the rider is Brian Canter).


<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/5219690-e43.jpg" border="0" /> (http://www.divshare.com/download/5219690-e43)
Flint the clown

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Katie77 on August 21, 2008, 07:11:13 pm
The more I read here the more "what if's" I think about.....

What if Jack was only buying a drink for Jimbo, thanking him for his help at the rodeo....a little bit like tipping a waiter for good service.

What if Jack was't even trying to flirt with him, and it was sincerely and honestly just a gesture of friendship, BUT because there may have been rumours about Jack, the rodeo clown rejected the drink because he didn't want to look like he was getting to friendly with the "likes" of Jack.

And maybe the anger Jack felt afterwards was more...."Christ, I cant even buy a bloke a drink, without them thinking Im trying to flirt with them"...

And then the following night with Laureen.....he thinks, "Well I'll show em, I like ladies"...

There are so many interpretations......
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on August 21, 2008, 08:30:43 pm

I think there's so much suggestiveness and tension in the way that Jack looks at Jimbo, and even the way that Jimbo looks back that there's serious flirting going on, at least from Jack's side.

Jack's going through all the classic motions of picking someone up... finding an entree or pick-up line and then the cliche of buying a drink.  As a scene in the film, I personally really do think it's meant to demonstrate the frustrations Jack encounters when trying to find a male partner prior to the reunion.
To me it would seem strange for the filmmakers to go through the effort of showing an elaborate scene where Jack is just trying to become friends with the rodeo clown.

I think there's a ton of ambiguity in the Randall encounter about who's flirting with whom, and what Jack's reactions to Randall's attentions are.  I think there's less ambiguity in the Jimbo scene.  But, with almost all aspects of BBM there's certainly room for multiple interpretations.

To me, Jack's decision to hook up with Lureen is a form of giving up.  He may partially have done it to squash rumors that might have existed about him.   But, mostly I think it's a form of reluctant resignation to an expectation that society is foisting on him with the end result being a marriage of convenience and a child he doesn't want. The bartender's comment in the Lureen scene about how much money Lureen's family makes seems to sweeten the deal slightly for Jack in this decision for him.  For Jack, I think it's as much about the money as anything else.




Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 21, 2008, 08:31:36 pm
You are all females making posts on this, and you have a different view than men do!

Not only a man, such a myself being gay, would be in Jack feet, and see Jimbo as being dangerous, besides insulting, but making an anti-gang also towards him!

Plus that bartender, insults him too !! Telling him to forget so-called adult men, but go after pups !!

It is obvious that Jack not only hears those bad insults, but feels now the present danger !!

This whole scene forecasts Jack's futur, being murdered by so-called adult straight con artists men !!

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Katie77 on August 21, 2008, 08:36:04 pm
Amanda, I agree with you on the interpretation of the scene entirely.

My previous post was just a "what if" kind of post, but not what I really believed happened.

Isnt it amazing how so many scenes can be inerpretted in so many ways.....

This has been a very interesting thread....ive done a lot of soul searching, while contributing to it.

Maybe you should start a smiliar one on the Randall and Jack scene.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 21, 2008, 08:37:37 pm
And there is a lot of bull... going on!
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on August 21, 2008, 10:57:35 pm
Amanda, I agree with you on the interpretation of the scene entirely.

My previous post was just a "what if" kind of post, but not what I really believed happened.

Isnt it amazing how so many scenes can be inerpretted in so many ways.....

This has been a very interesting thread....ive done a lot of soul searching, while contributing to it.

Maybe you should start a smiliar one on the Randall and Jack scene.


Heya Friend!

Well, you're certainly right that there are many ways to look at different scenes.  And suggesting alternative viewpoints can definitely be helpful.

There's already a thread about Randall and Jack here in Open Forum... it was a Topic of the Week a while back called, "Did It Seem Like Jack Was Responsive to Randall's Flirtatiousness".  http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,13378.0.html (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,13378.0.html)

And, there's a very old, wonderful thread called "A Ninth Viewing Observation" http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,795.0.html (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,795.0.html) that is all about Jack and Randall at the beginning.  That thread rambled into lots of different topics as it went along.  But, I remember it was a really fun thread... it's actually one of the classic Open Forum threads I think.

LOL, I tried to post this response over two hours ago, but my computer crashed right in the middle of me typing!! Yikes!  So, I just finished doing a system recovery... which, thankfully worked, but took most of the evening.
 :-\
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: optom3 on August 21, 2008, 11:15:33 pm
I think there's so much suggestiveness and tension in the way that Jack looks at Jimbo, and even the way that Jimbo looks back that there's serious flirting going on, at least from Jack's side.

Jack's going through all the classic motions of picking someone up... finding an entree or pick-up line and then the cliche of buying a drink.  As a scene in the film, I personally really do think it's meant to demonstrate the frustrations Jack encounters when trying to find a male partner prior to the reunion.
To me it would seem strange for the filmmakers to go through the effort of showing an elaborate scene where Jack is just trying to become friends with the rodeo clown.

I think there's a ton of ambiguity in the Randall encounter about who's flirting with whom, and what Jack's reactions to Randall's attentions are.  I think there's less ambiguity in the Jimbo scene.  But, with almost all aspects of BBM there's certainly room for multiple interpretations.

To me, Jack's decision to hook up with Lureen is a form of giving up.  He may partially have done it to squash rumors that might have existed about him.   But, mostly I think it's a form of reluctant resignation to an expectation that society is foisting on him with the end result being a marriage of convenience and a child he doesn't want. The bartender's comment in the Lureen scene about how much money Lureen's family makes seems to sweeten the deal slightly for Jack in this decision for him.  For Jack, I think it's as much about the money as anything else.






When I looked at the screenplay, it says ,Jack after watching Jimbo limps over to him,stands close to his shoulder. It then says. there is a frisson, a vibe,that gives the clown an uneasy feeling although he remains perfectly friendly.
That would definitely seem to imply, Jack was trying to pick him up. Jimbo feels it So could be he is another Ennis type who Jack has spotted, or he could be straight but realises what is happening.
The only thing that puzzles me now, is I would have thought that a straight man who has a man try to pick him up, would erupt. Particularly in that macho environment.Yet Jimbo does nothing.
I wonder if part of the point of the scene, is to let the viewer know, what the reader of the S.S does, that Jack has been riding more than bulls,prior to the reunion.
That being so, it could only really be with cowboys, rodeo riders, etc where he does his"riding"
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 22, 2008, 09:52:36 am
Optom, I am surprised at you thinking that Jimbo does nothing !

You know what a frisson is to use your word?

Plus, Jimbo did react also AGAIN negatively in the movie towards Jack telling him off, and also creating a gang against Jack !

What is that? Nothing? Again, you miss how two men, a decent Jack, is dangered by the con artist Jimbo ?

Au revoir,
hugs!  Now, you are giving me the frisson ?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Katie77 on August 22, 2008, 09:59:06 am
frisson
One entry found.

frisson 
   



Main Entry: fris·son 
Pronunciation: \frē-ˈsōⁿ\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural frissons  \-ˈsōⁿ(z)\
Etymology: French, shiver, from Old French friçon, from Late Latin friction-, frictio, from Latin, literally, friction (taken in Late Latin as derivative of frigēre to be cold)
Date: 1777
: a brief moment of emotional excitement : shudder, thrill <produce a genuine frisson of disquiet — Patricia Craig> 
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 22, 2008, 10:06:12 am
Right Katie!

Jimbo by a frisson showed genuinely that he was ANTI-GAY!

And more ?

So why have pity on Jimbo !

I rather like Jack since at least he was the ONLY man there ! A real genuine man, a loving person!

Au revoir,
hugs!
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: optom3 on August 22, 2008, 10:36:15 am
Right Katie!

Jimbo by a frisson showed genuinely that he was ANTI-GAY!

And more ?

So why have pity on Jimbo !

I rather like Jack since at least he was the ONLY man there ! A real genuine man, a loving person!

Au revoir,
hugs!

I disagree totally, he may have felt the frisson, and there is no direct reference as to whether it was Jack, him or both who felt it. But If I feel a man is comming onto me and I am not really interested, does that make me anti men. No it doesn't, it just means I am not interested in THAT man. Not the whole male population.
The use of the word frisson in the screenplay is ambiguous and deliberately so I think,the frisson makes Jimbo uneasy, but maybe that is because he, like Ennis is deeply closeted by fear. At no time does he seem threatening to Jack, in fact the screenplay says he remains perfectly friendly.

So it could be taken as the reverse of anti gay.Could be that he feels uneasy as he knows he is being watched, but that the frisson felt, is an indication that he fancies Jack, but is unwilling to admit it to himself, hence the feeling uneasy.In fact maybe Jimbo feels threatened by emotions he has, but does not understand or feel ready to accept.
He may be thinking, stupid sod, why didn't you do this somewhere else less obvious and I would have jumped your bones gladly.
As with all things BBM there are so may interpretations, all right as Proulx herself says, the story is not finished until it has been read, meaning we all have our own particular take on it, but welcome and indeed embrace the views of others. By so doing we open up our minds  to endless possibilities and the story becomes a classic, being debated, years and sometimes centuries down the line, eg, Chaucer, Steinbeck, and Shakespeare himself.
I think there is a big hint in the screenplay when it sates that Jimbo "remains perfectly friendly"
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on August 22, 2008, 10:45:02 am

The use of the word frisson in the screenplay is ambiguous and deliberately so I think,the frisson makes Jimbo uneasy, but maybe that is because he, like Ennis is deeply closeted by fear. At no time does he seem threatening to Jack, in fact the screenplay says he remains perfectly friendly.

So it could be taken as the reverse of anti gay.Could be that he feels uneasy as he knows he is being watched, but that the frisson felt, is an indication that he fancies Jack, but is unwilling to admit it to himself, hence the feeling uneasy.In fact maybe Jimbo feels threatened by emotions he has, but does not understand or feel ready to accept.
He may be thinking, stupid sod, why didn't you do this somewhere else less obvious


Heya Fiona,

I think it's really interesting to bring the screenplay into this discussion.  And, I think this part of your comment is particularly interesting.  It seems like one really interesting possiblity regarding Jimbo... that he may have had some interest in Jack, but that the context of Jack hitting on him so publiclly made the whole situation too awkward.  I think there are at least two ways to see Jimbo's reaction based on what you mention about the screenplay.  Either it's a straightforward scenario of Jimbo being straight and truly not interested in Jack (but Jimbo remains polite, if a bit terse).  Or, he is a bit of an Ennis-type who's bottling up and trying to hide some of the feelings/attraction he may be having towards Jack or about men in general.


The fact that Jack is so relatively open about approaching a man in the context of that particular bar, even with the bartender hovering... illustrates a really cute/ sweet but naive aspect of Jack's personality I think. 

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 22, 2008, 11:04:38 am
Optom, like Atz, I find it too really interesting that you bring the screenplay into the discussion, but I not that you know that I disagree with you about your intepretation of Jimbo's frisson ! ? Totally!

I will add later.

Right now was the word FRISSON used by Annie ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: optom3 on August 22, 2008, 11:11:52 am
Heya Fiona,

I think it's really interesting to bring the screenplay into this discussion.  And, I think this part of your comment is particularly interesting.  It seems like one really interesting possibility regarding Jimbo... that he may have had some interest in Jack, but that the context of Jack hitting on him so publiclly made the whole situation too awkward.  I think there are at least two ways to see Jimbo's reaction based on what you mention about the screenplay.  Either it's a straightforward scenario of Jimbo being straight and truly not interested in Jack (but Jimbo remains polite, if a bit terse).  Or, he is a bit of an Ennis-type who's bottling up and trying to hide some of the feelings/attraction he may be having towards Jack or about men in general.


The fact that Jack is so relatively open about approaching a man in the context of that particular bar, even with the bartender hovering... illustrates a really cute/ sweet but naive aspect of Jack's personality I think. 



I agree about Jacks' naivety, we see that, when he is so surprised that Earl and Rich suffered the fate they did. He is almost childlike in his attitude, believing that if you want something enough you can get it, and why would anyone want to hurt you.
I also think that this simplistic view of life, in the early days makes Jack reckless as well.
I see some of that in my own kids, one of whom thinks he will be playing at Wimbledon and the other at the Olympics.I would never spoil those dreams for them because who knows anyway, and also if it does not happen, life will soon disillusion them.
I do not think Jack has seen enough of life yet to have his childlike naivety shattered. It is what remains so endearing about him.
Ennis by his very early teens had already lost his parents, then lost his home.He is much more battle scarred than Jack.
The scene by the lake when Ennis asks him if he thinks people know, genuinely seems to catch Jack by surprise. Ennis may be completely bottled up, but he is much more aware tahn Jack, or maybe just more paranoid.
Jack seems to exist to some degree, in his own little bubble, either blissfully unaware of what the world is really like, or if he does know, then determined to ignore it.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 22, 2008, 11:15:38 am
Atz:

there are more than two ways than those you mentioned, maybe ?

I find more than two !

Au revoir,
hugs!
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: optom3 on August 22, 2008, 11:25:04 am
Optom, like Atz, I find it too really interesting that you bring the screenplay into the discussion, but I not that you know that I disagree with you about your intepretation of Jimbo's frisson ! ? Totally!

I will add later.

Right now was the word FRISSON used by Annie ?

Au revoir,
hugs!



No she doesn't, but that particular scene does not exist in the S.S.
 We are told that Jack has been with other men, in the motel scene, when it says, "Jack who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own"
This is in response to a comment from Ennis who asks, "you do it with other guys? Jack " Jack lies and says "shit no"
I think part of the purpose of the Jimbo scene is to convey to us that Jack is much more sexually driven than Ennis and possibly more at ease with his sexuality.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 22, 2008, 11:37:30 am
Optom, you could also see it on another way, may I suggest?

Since you say:
         I disagree totally, he may have felt the frisson, and there is no direct reference as to whether it was Jack, him or both who felt it. But If I feel a man is comming onto me and I am not really interested, does that make me anti men. No it doesn't, it just means I am not interested in THAT man. Not the whole male population.
The use of the word frisson in the screenplay is ambiguous and deliberately so I think,the frisson makes Jimbo uneasy, but maybe that is because he, like Ennis is deeply closeted by fear. At no time does he seem threatening to Jack, in fact the screenplay says he remains perfectly friendly.

          


...........

A- Optom, I thought that you wrote that it was Jimbo that had the frisson? Was that so written by Annie and/or the screenplay?

B- Concerning if a man comes directly to you cruising you, of course like you say, you would not be anti-man, since you are normal in the sense of civil, and you would re-act kindly, I'm sure since that is known about you! Like you say in a way, you would NOT certainly murder Jack like the Greyhound bus murderer, nor those two who murdered Sheppard, that gay young man picked up in such a bar - as you said Earl and Rich suffered and another word which I have no time to refind! But in this case, I see Jimbo as anti-gay (as well as a con-artist) and certainly not gay-closetted), and therefore, I note that Jimbo sensed Jack's friendship as coloured:
yes, as being gay as in homosexual, right? These two would certainly not become just booze buddies, right... as they could have begun to be even if one is straight and the other gay !?


You are normal in your reactions, but in this case Jimbo surely is not that normal, since he is a con-artist and/or anti-gay, I feel ! You don't see that ? Why those word of Jimbo's and his actions going back to the others ? What is your point on that and that??

Au revoir,
hugs!
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: optom3 on August 22, 2008, 06:11:37 pm


Optom, you could also see it on another way, may I suggest?

Since you say:
         I disagree totally, he may have felt the frisson, and there is no direct reference as to whether it was Jack, him or both who felt it. But If I feel a man is comming onto me and I am not really interested, does that make me anti men. No it doesn't, it just means I am not interested in THAT man. Not the whole male population.
The use of the word frisson in the screenplay is ambiguous and deliberately so I think,the frisson makes Jimbo uneasy, but maybe that is because he, like Ennis is deeply closeted by fear. At no time does he seem threatening to Jack, in fact the screenplay says he remains perfectly friendly.

          


...........

A- Optom, I thought that you wrote that it was Jimbo that had the frisson? Was that so written by Annie and/or the screenplay?

B- Concerning if a man comes directly to you cruising you, of course like you say, you would not be anti-man, since you are normal in the sense of civil, and you would re-act kindly, I'm sure since that is known about you! Like you say in a way, you would NOT certainly murder Jack like the Greyhound bus murderer, nor those two who murdered Sheppard, that gay young man picked up in such a bar - as you said Earl and Rich suffered and another word which I have no time to refind! But in this case, I see Jimbo as anti-gay (as well as a con-artist) and certainly not gay-closetted), and therefore, I note that Jimbo sensed Jack's friendship as coloured:
yes, as being gay as in homosexual, right? These two would certainly not become just booze buddies, right... as they could have begun to be even if one is straight and the other gay !?


You are normal in your reactions, but in this case Jimbo surely is not that normal, since he is a con-artist and/or anti-gay, I feel ! You don't see that ? Why those word of Jimbo's and his actions going back to the others ? What is your point on that and that??

Au revoir,
hugs!

The entire Jimbo episode exists only in the film and screenplay. It has not been written by Proulx.
The exact words in the screenplay are,
There is something, a frisson, a vibe, that gives the clown an uneasy feeling, although he remains perfectly friendly, takes his beer stands up.
Pulling bulls of you buckaroos is just my job,save your money for your next entry fee cowboy.
Jack watches Jimbo walk over , sit down with a table full of calf ropers.

So my take is that there is no violence implied.Jimbo is either a closeted gay who thinks Jack is taking a big risk in front of a crowded bar, or he is an out gay and does not fancy Jack or even if he does still thinks it's pretty risky in the environment.
It could even be that as he sits down with the table of calf ropers, he thinks Jack is out of his depth within the hierarchy.It would appear that calf ropers are more highly paid/skilled than bull riders.
The word frisson as it appears in the text could be a frisson that Jimbo feels, or that passes between him and Jack.It is definitely ambiguous.But it does say that Jimbo remains perfectly friendly.
If it was an action prompted by gay hate, he is doing a pretty good job of hiding it,why does he not just there and then start something, he has all his calf ropers to help out.Or wait until Jack leaves and then attack him.
I think Jimbos words just mean, thanks but no thanks,then goes back to join the others.Is he gay, maybe,we will never know, but we do know that Jacks' gaydar seems to be pretty reliable, eg Ennis and Randal. and presumably the others referred to in the S.S itself.

I do think in the interest of peace and harmony, we should agree to disagree on this one Artiste. Only the screenwriters themselves know  the intended meaning of the scene.

So I guess if we really want to know we will have to ask McMurty and Ossana !!!!!

 As Proulx herself said a book is not finished until it is read,implying that our experience in life will give all of us a slightly different slant on things. We will let our imaginations fill in the blamks, but will inevitably be distorted to some extent by the lives we have led.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on August 22, 2008, 07:56:16 pm
Thanks Fiona.

The comment in the screenplay that Jimbo actually walks over to a table full of calf-ropers is a really interesting thing to note as far as explaining how the bartender's comment about calf-roping may have come into the film.  Either we're supposed to use that comment to understand that some of the other folks in the bar are calf-ropers (something I've never considered before now) or ... and this really is interesting... maybe he's giving Jack a subtle hint about some of the calf-ropers maybe being more open to an advance from a man.  That may be a stretch, but it's an interesting possibility.

Something I wonder, based on this slight possibility that the bartender could be trying to give Jack a tip about guys who might be more receptive, is whether there really was a gay subculture on rodeo circuits back-in-the-day  or whether there even still is.  I think there's a longstanding, old-fashioned, and unspoken understanding that in the largely all-male old West cowboy culture, there were a lot of guys who had relationships with other guys.  And, I really do wonder how it translated to the largely all-male culture of old-time rodeo circuits.  It would be interesting to know more about the history of rodeo culture.


And, about calf-ropers vs. bull-riders.... I don't know if one would be more skilled than the other, it would mostly be a different kind of skill.  Calf-roping seems to be a lot more about precision, timing, and control of the horse.  Bull riding is more about raw courage (overcoming a certain innate fear of doing something really dangerous), strength and and understanding how to perform counter-moves on top of a bull responding to the bull's bucking pattern.  The major difference I think is economic.  A bull rider never owns the bull he rides... or he doesn't have one bull that he takes care of and trains.  The random bull he would get on at a given rodeo would be provided temporarily for the one event.  As far as I understand, a calf-roper would own his own horse, and it would have to be a well trained horse because there's a lot of coordination between the rider and horse necessary for that event.  So, I think it would be a lot more costly to be a good calf-roper.  In a certain way, I feel like at rodeos the bull riding is often the biggest and most thrilling event... in a way it's the most showy event.  So I think there are hierarchies in all the rodeo events, but it's complicated (depending on what criteria you're looking at).




Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 22, 2008, 11:18:40 pm
Merci optom!

You say about Jimbo:
        There is something, a frisson, a vibe, that gives the clown an uneasy feeling, although he remains perfectly friendly, takes his beer stands up.
             


..........

Optom, I see it as of course Jimbo portraits a frisson as he is obviously anti-gay since he thinks that he is a man and that Jack is not such manly but an homo-animal in Jimbo's mindset ! Con-artist and/or anti-gay Jimbo is uneasy (yes uneasy to use your word) because Jack was honestly cruising him ! Jimbo was so surprised, that he is shocked because that an honest and sweet young man (Jack) was asking him, cruising him, and wanted to be in his friendship!  (Like one of  my sisters noted recently about her husband who is unfortunately an con-artist), I always saw, like her sees, that con-artists have no honest friend but other con-artists!! But con-artists are sweet and always liked by everyone they befriend even after they destroy someone by their crime!!

May I disagree with you that Jimbo is: remains perfectly friendly ! Please NOTE and  describe Jimbo tone which is so smooth as well at the same time a con game!! Jimbo had to SAVE FACE not only in front of the bartender, but especially to his con-artists (his friends) which he goes to talked to about Jack being gay in order to ardently save his face and to start destroying Jack's reputation!! It could very well be that Jimbo also destroyed Jack's life, since Jack was murdered later on! ?? - I think so!!

Replay often the voice and actions of Jimbo and maybe you'll see him in a very dark con-artist dangerous light?

As two examples this week:

1- When I was traveling with a man this week, I made the mystake to say that I had had a boyfriend who died! Just because I said the word boyfriend, that driver nearly slamed the brakes on the expressway to stop and his voice became very, very high in note repeating my word! So, I becamse scared and changed my word to protect myself!

2- To-day, now the same thing happen with two other men and I; I did say to one that the guy (who sings) on the CD had a good bum, and...well that started an agressive laugh towards me, which continued for hours and became like Jimbo did, more and more knowing about it ridiculing me as a gang does now!

So some straights even to-day if Canada accepts gay marriages, that certain words I can NOT use for fear not only of being rediculed but also of being violently attacked by one or many since it becomes a gang against a gay man just because one is gay!

Same way, I think that Jack was really insulted by Jimbo, the bartender, and those Jimbo anti-gay gang!!
It's a similar scene that happened to the Sheppard young man which was murdered because he was gay, but the police, the murderers say no that that was not the reason; they are con-artists like Jimbo is in that Borkeback Mountain movie scene, but Sheppard was honest ? !!

Emotions are hard by Jack after he hears Jimbo and see Jimbos actions, so strong that he (Jack) has to get out of that bar in order to save his own life, I feel !! Can you possibly see that?

Au revoir,
hugs!
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: optom3 on August 23, 2008, 12:51:06 am
Thanks Fiona.

The comment in the screenplay that Jimbo actually walks over to a table full of calf-ropers is a really interesting thing to note as far as explaining how the bartender's comment about calf-roping may have come into the film.  Either we're supposed to use that comment to understand that some of the other folks in the bar are calf-ropers (something I've never considered before now) or ... and this really is interesting... maybe he's giving Jack a subtle hint about some of the calf-ropers maybe being more open to an advance from a man.  That may be a stretch, but it's an interesting possibility.

Something I wonder, based on this slight possibility that the bartender could be trying to give Jack a tip about guys who might be more receptive, is whether there really was a gay subculture on rodeo circuits back-in-the-day  or whether there even still is.  I think there's a longstanding, old-fashioned, and unspoken understanding that in the largely all-male old West cowboy culture, there were a lot of guys who had relationships with other guys.  And, I really do wonder how it translated to the largely all-male culture of old-time rodeo circuits.  It would be interesting to know more about the history of rodeo culture.


And, about calf-ropers vs. bull-riders.... I don't know if one would be more skilled than the other, it would mostly be a different kind of skill.  Calf-roping seems to be a lot more about precision, timing, and control of the horse.  Bull riding is more about raw courage (overcoming a certain innate fear of doing something really dangerous), strength and and understanding how to perform counter-moves on top of a bull responding to the bull's bucking pattern.  The major difference I think is economic.  A bull rider never owns the bull he rides... or he doesn't have one bull that he takes care of and trains.  The random bull he would get on at a given rodeo would be provided temporarily for the one event.  As far as I understand, a calf-roper would own his own horse, and it would have to be a well trained horse because there's a lot of coordination between the rider and horse necessary for that event.  So, I think it would be a lot more costly to be a good calf-roper.  In a certain way, I feel like at rodeos the bull riding is often the biggest and most thrilling event... in a way it's the most showy event.  So I think there are hierarchies in all the rodeo events, but it's complicated (depending on what criteria you're looking at).






I had never considered that the barman might have been giving Jack a subtle push in a more receptive direction. That would actually fit with the S.S .In the motel scene we are told that Jack has been riding more than bulls. We know that Jack has spent a fair amount of time, after his time on BBM and before meeting Lureen, on the rodeo circuit, as we also know he has been having sex with other men,(from the s.s itself) It is not a great leap to deduce that some of those men must have been on the rodeo circuit.
I would guess it was almost a community in itself, and with rampant homophobia, it could well be that those who are gay,or at least not full of hatred, help others the same.
It also strikes me that Proulx specifically uses the word riding.I am convinced every single word she writes is quite deliberately chosen.So Jack has been riding cowboys and bulls.Both of whom would be found on the rodeo circuit.
I like your idea, as it fits in so well with the story, and also it implies a degree of acceptance by some people at least.In this tragic tale, wouldn't it be nice, if just for once,Jack is not being rejected and humiliated yet again.O.K so he doesn't seem to get it,but neither does he get beaten to a pulp.
I will close my eyes, go to sleep and feel strangely comforted by your idea, and soothed by the sound of my oldest laughing on the phone with his girlfriend.It makes me feel quite old sometimes.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Marge_Innavera on August 23, 2008, 09:49:44 am
I think there's so much suggestiveness and tension in the way that Jack looks at Jimbo, and even the way that Jimbo looks back that there's serious flirting going on, at least from Jack's side.

Jack's going through all the classic motions of picking someone up... finding an entree or pick-up line and then the cliche of buying a drink.  As a scene in the film, I personally really do think it's meant to demonstrate the frustrations Jack encounters when trying to find a male partner prior to the reunion.

This scene kind of flashed by when I first saw the movie, but in multiple viewings I'm impressed with how subtle Jake's performance is there.  It's so believable for the situation: a gay man in a Texas cowboy bar in the mid-1960s trying to scope out another guy without putting himself in danger.  On the surface, there's nothing Jack says or does that's even ambiguous.  But after his remark that Jimbo is the best rodeo clown he's worked with, he pauses, his smile widens just a little and his eyes narrow just a little. 

Jack might very well leave right afterward not only out of embarrassment but also out of a sense of danger when Jimbo goes over to the pool table and starts talking with the other guys.  However, the fact that Jack hasn't done or said anything specific might very well be the reason that he's able to leave safely -- Jimbo might suspect that this guy at the bar was trying to pick him up but Jack doesn't give him any more ammunition than that.

Interesting, the disconnect between that scene and what's in the screenplay -- Jimbo doesn't sit down at any table; he goes over and talks to a group of men playing pool.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 23, 2008, 03:16:59 pm
Merci optom !

You say:
...     know he (Jack) has been having sex with other men,(from the s.s itself) It is not a great leap to deduce that some of those men must have been on the rodeo circuit.
I would guess it was almost a community in itself, and with rampant homophobia, it could well be that those who are gay,or at least not full of hatred, help others the same.
It also strikes me that Proulx specifically uses the word riding.I am convinced every single word she writes is quite deliberately chosen.So Jack has been riding cowboys and bulls.Both of whom would be found on the rodeo circuit.
I like your idea, as it fits in so well with the story, and also it implies a degree of acceptance by some people at least.In this tragic tale, wouldn't it be nice, if just for once,Jack is not being rejected and humiliated yet again.O.K so he doesn't seem to get it,but neither does he get beaten to a pulp.
               


.....

Optom. you may well think, likely correctly that there was some as you say:        implies a degree of acceptance by some people at least            about homosexuality in the rodeo circuit so Jack can be accepted, but surely that would be like an underground ?

Many or most, if I may count to my experiences in life: so-called men, con-artists, animals-calling themselves-men, would not accept at all any gay man,  and ridicule a homosexual readily as Jimbo did here, as well as gang up on him, like those two that murdered Sheppard for fun !!

Atz stresses the importance of the Jimbo scene... as important ! To me, this scene makes Jack sound like a whore maybe, plus shows that his liberty for sex and friendship is not only limited to a high degree, but is present as the result is dangerous because Jimbo ridicules him, and starts a gang against him!
So, eventually, we do see that Jack gets murdered by a gang ! Sad, but true that such events do happen to-day and did then too in those times!! Note that in the movie: Jack does get beaten to a pulp !! ??

Annie did not write this scene, so why did the authors of the s.s. did, plus Ang glady left it in the movie ??


Au revoir,
hugs!
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 23, 2008, 03:22:40 pm
Was this excellent post deleted?

              Our Brokeback Mountain: The Story, Movie, Author, Actors and Its Impact / Brokeback Mountain: Open Forum / Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene  on: Today at 09:49:44 AM 
Quote from: atz75 on August 21, 2008, 08:30:43 PM
I think there's so much suggestiveness and tension in the way that Jack looks at Jimbo, and even the way that Jimbo looks back that there's serious flirting going on, at least from Jack's side.

Jack's going through all the classic motions of picking someone up... finding an entree or pick-up line and then the cliche of buying a drink.  As a scene in the film, I personally really do think it's meant to demonstrate the frustrations Jack encounters when trying to find a male partner prior to the reunion.

This scene kind of flashed by when I first saw the movie, but in multiple viewings I'm impressed with how subtle Jake's performance is there.  It's so believable for the situation: a gay man in a Texas cowboy bar in the mid-1960s trying to scope out another guy without putting himself in danger.  On the surface, there's nothing Jack says or does that's even ambiguous.  But after his remark that Jimbo is the best rodeo clown he's worked with, he pauses, his smile widens just a little and his eyes narrow just a little. 

Jack might very well leave right afterward not only out of embarrassment but also out of a sense of danger when Jimbo goes over to the pool table and starts talking with the other guys.  However, the fact that Jack hasn't done or said anything specific might very well be the reason that he's able to leave safely -- Jimbo might suspect that this guy at the bar was trying to pick him up but Jack doesn't give him any more ammunition than that.

Interesting, the disconnect between that scene and what's in the screenplay -- Jimbo doesn't sit down at any table; he goes over and talks to a group of men playing pool.
                   



.......

It was by: Marge_Innavera !
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on August 23, 2008, 03:30:21 pm
Was this excellent post deleted?

  Our Brokeback Mountain: The Story, Movie, Author, Actors and Its Impact / Brokeback Mountain: Open Forum / Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene  on: Today at 09:49:44 AM 
Quote from: atz75 on August 21, 2008, 08:30:43 PM
I think there's so much suggestiveness and tension in the way that Jack looks at Jimbo, and even the way that Jimbo looks back that there's serious flirting going on, at least from Jack's side.

Jack's going through all the classic motions of picking someone up... finding an entree or pick-up line and then the cliche of buying a drink.  As a scene in the film, I personally really do think it's meant to demonstrate the frustrations Jack encounters when trying to find a male partner prior to the reunion.

This scene kind of flashed by when I first saw the movie, but in multiple viewings I'm impressed with how subtle Jake's performance is there.  It's so believable for the situation: a gay man in a Texas cowboy bar in the mid-1960s trying to scope out another guy without putting himself in danger.  On the surface, there's nothing Jack says or does that's even ambiguous.  But after his remark that Jimbo is the best rodeo clown he's worked with, he pauses, his smile widens just a little and his eyes narrow just a little. 

Jack might very well leave right afterward not only out of embarrassment but also out of a sense of danger when Jimbo goes over to the pool table and starts talking with the other guys.  However, the fact that Jack hasn't done or said anything specific might very well be the reason that he's able to leave safely -- Jimbo might suspect that this guy at the bar was trying to pick him up but Jack doesn't give him any more ammunition than that.

Interesting, the disconnect between that scene and what's in the screenplay -- Jimbo doesn't sit down at any table; he goes over and talks to a group of men playing pool.
                  

.......

It was by: Marge_Innavera !


Marge's post is still here.  It's only one post prior to one of your last posts Artiste.  It's reply #57 to this thread.  Here's a link to the specific post http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,22186.msg398002.html#msg398002 (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,22186.msg398002.html#msg398002).  And, I'll quote it here for you.

This scene kind of flashed by when I first saw the movie, but in multiple viewings I'm impressed with how subtle Jake's performance is there.  It's so believable for the situation: a gay man in a Texas cowboy bar in the mid-1960s trying to scope out another guy without putting himself in danger.  On the surface, there's nothing Jack says or does that's even ambiguous.  But after his remark that Jimbo is the best rodeo clown he's worked with, he pauses, his smile widens just a little and his eyes narrow just a little. 

Jack might very well leave right afterward not only out of embarrassment but also out of a sense of danger when Jimbo goes over to the pool table and starts talking with the other guys.  However, the fact that Jack hasn't done or said anything specific might very well be the reason that he's able to leave safely -- Jimbo might suspect that this guy at the bar was trying to pick him up but Jack doesn't give him any more ammunition than that.

Interesting, the disconnect between that scene and what's in the screenplay -- Jimbo doesn't sit down at any table; he goes over and talks to a group of men playing pool.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 23, 2008, 10:07:14 pm
Atz, Marge_Innavera's post  was not showing up, nor now, why ?

It does only when I added it and when you did too as 2 posts!!

Do you know?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Penthesilea on August 24, 2008, 01:39:43 pm
Atz, Marge_Innavera's post  was not showing up, nor now, why ?

It does only when I added it and when you did too as 2 posts!!

Do you know?

Like Amanda(atz75) already said: it has never been deleated, not at any given time. It is still there and has been there all the time. When it didn't show up for you, you either had problems with your computer, or you simply overlooked it. This should clarify the situation about Marge_Innavera's post and we don't need to discuss it any longer.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 24, 2008, 04:26:11 pm
It is still not on here !

Does anyone else does not see it?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: optom3 on August 24, 2008, 05:20:32 pm
It is still not on here !

Does anyone else does not see it?

Artiste it is still there. It is post number 57. I have just double checked and seen it with my own eyes.
You must have a glitch somewhere.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on August 24, 2008, 08:36:35 pm
Merci optom, I am glad that you can see it, and maybe likely others too, while I remain not seeing it!

It is good to get your communications and those of others too!!


Au revoir,
hugs!                          P.S. Am glad too that the next Olympics will be in London in 2012 ! Did you know?
Maybe you will bring some copies of the postcards that Ennis and Jack had to there, considering how important they can bring World Peace and Love among Men and Ladies !! ?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on October 12, 2008, 11:46:52 am
As said:
           Jack might very well leave right afterward not only out of embarrassment but also out of a sense of danger when Jimbo goes over to the pool table and starts talking with the other guys.                 
....

Doesn't that indicate that Jimbo is dangerous ?

I still ask myself that question!

What do you think?

Au revoir,
hugs!
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Front-Ranger on October 12, 2008, 03:34:20 pm
The bottom line in this scene is that no bad thing happened to Jack other than him being slighted and that may have been his imagination. In the movie, the camera follows Jimbo as he goes over to his buddies, and they do not even look over in Jack's direction. All fears and threats are imperceptible and under the surface. We never really know if Jack was in danger after he left that roadhouse or not.

As for the bartender's question, "Ever tried calf-roping?" it may have been just a suggestion to help Jack get in with the in-crowd, or it may have been an allusion to him to stick with pursuing the females of the species. We never really know.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on October 12, 2008, 03:56:42 pm
Merci Front-Ranger !

May I disagree with your two points in your post!

To me, that ( Jimbo scene) starts the fear within Jack !

Plus much more.

Danger of one's reputation started by Jimbo about Jack being gay, doesn't count?

Plus, the bartendar wants Jack to be a pedophile... is that it ?

There are many dangers in the Brokeback movie... enumerated to show that gay men are or can be in danger often, and that is what I see in this film !

Au revoir,
hugs!  I still talk to gay guys who have seen the film disliking it greatly refusing to see it twice, or refuse to watch it a first time, since they fear somehow that underline stories about it that gays are to be hurt or killed as one local politician said lately in a school and elsewhere, did you hear! Keep care !
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Front-Ranger on October 12, 2008, 07:31:34 pm
Yes, I agree with you about the presence of fear and the need for fear and caution due to the lingering prevalence of hatred and homophobia in our society. And I do not doubt that Jack inevitably met his end due to prejudice and irrational hatred. Although there is even ambiguity about this...was the killing of Jack just a figment of Ennis' imagination? We do not know. It never says for sure. We are left to make our own conclusions based on our prejudices, beliefs and outlook of the world and people's natures.

Getting back to Jimbo however, there is another reason for the rodeo clown scene. In classic stories of all kinds, the figure of the clown often appears. On one level, the clown is seen as an escape from the serious side of life, but on another level, the clown is a symbol of randomness and chaos. The clown can even be menacing, because through one misstep, your life can be taken away and life goes on without you, uncaring, unknowing. The fool or the clown is a fixture of Greek tragedies, Fellini movies, as well as Batman movies. There is a double dose of clowns in The Dark Knight, since the movie begins with the Joker in a clown mask leading a bank heist. The director, Chistopher Nolan, is one of the most existential auteurs directing today, so this movie is revealing of our culture.

Another representation of the clown is the Devil, who appears in a couple of Annie Proulx's latest stories in her collection Fine Just the Way it Is.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Katie77 on October 12, 2008, 08:04:11 pm
Plus, the bartendar wants Jack to be a pedophile... is that it ?


WTF is that supposed to mean????
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on October 12, 2008, 08:08:54 pm
Merci encore Front-Ranger,

as your post is very interesting.

Regarding clowns in stories, they do vary, as you described. Did Annie use Jimbo in her Brokeback Mountain story?

If Jimbo outlines an escape from the serious parts of life, that may seem so as he smiles to his friends after smiling to Jack refusing Jack, but he is likely two-faced and represents danger, may I repeat!

Jack was happy to ask Jimbo to be his friend (as a mate) but Jimbo cuts out that happiness in many ways.
The whole scene is like a mask... and it becomes a circus of bad behaviours by Jimbo, the barman and by Jimbo's friends which becomes a gang (a dangerous one to my view) !

I can never think that anyone see that Jack's death can be other than murder by a gang which is anti-gay And not only because that has hapenned to me, more than once!! It's logic that the story undertones towards gang murder of Jack!

But did Annie want Jack's death?


May I ask such questions ?

Au revoir,
hugs!  As far as other directors, I would have loved to see Fellini do this Brokeback Mountain movie ! Would you too?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Front-Ranger on October 12, 2008, 08:40:34 pm
Regarding clowns in stories, they do vary, as you described. Did Annie use Jimbo in her Brokeback Mountain story?

If Jimbo outlines an escape from the serious parts of life, that may seem so as he smiles to his friends after smiling to Jack refusing Jack, but he is likely two-faced and represents danger, may I repeat!

Jack was happy to ask Jimbo to be his friend (as a mate) but Jimbo cuts out that happiness in many ways.
The whole scene is like a mask... and it becomes a circus of bad behaviours by Jimbo, the barman and by Jimbo's friends which becomes a gang (a dangerous one to my view) !

As far as other directors, I would have loved to see Fellini do this Brokeback Mountain movie ! Would you too?
I have looked thru the story, and I can find no reference to a rodeo clown in it. You are right, Artiste, that the clown can be a menacing figure. Just look at Heath's character of the Joker, who was dedicated to random senseless destruction and chaos. Also, this could be a description of mob behavior, which Jimbo and his cronies could represent as you point out.

Yes, it would be very interesting to see Brokeback Mountain produced by Fellini!!

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on October 12, 2008, 08:45:48 pm
Merci encore Front-Ranger,

as you note that Annie had not included Jimbo.

I wonder if Ennis considered Jimbo as menacing ?

And did Jake as Jack viewed Jimbo as a devil or so ?

Your post outlines what I thought all along that that Jimbo scene is menacing to Jack and in many ways!!

But I wonder why not many viewers see that menace?


Au revoir,
hugs!
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Mandy21 on October 13, 2008, 12:21:49 am
WTF is that supposed to mean????

Thank you Sue.  I'd like the answer/explanation to that statement as well from Artiste.  Absolutely NO idea what connection or context is associated between the bartender's words and any implication of anyone being a pedophile.  There were no children involved in that scene whatsoever.  It was a bar, where only grown-ups go, so what in the world would that have to do with molesting children?  He completely lost me, as well as you apparently, on that statement.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Front-Ranger on October 13, 2008, 12:28:08 am
I think what Artiste meant was if by asking Jack if he had ever tried calf-roping, if he was suggesting Jack pursue calves, i.e. children. That is a rather far-fetched interpretation of the script, but if you were looking at it strictly literally, it could be interpreted that way. Me, I interpreted it as "stick to heterosexual activities" but I'm not exactly sure why.

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Katie77 on October 13, 2008, 12:32:24 am
I interpretted it to mean exactly what was said.....I think the bartender was making conversation, maybe he saw that Jack was a bit uncomfortable, and he tried to change the atmosphere.....

I guess interpretation is in the mind of the interpreter..........some which are not so nice.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Mandy21 on October 13, 2008, 12:37:06 am
"Far-fetched" would be a very nice way to word that interpretation, Lee.  In a bazillion years, I would never have thought of the "calf-roping" line to mean ANY thing other than "calf roping".  Makes me sick to think of it being interpreted in any other way than that.

Like Sue said, I guess different minds see things differently.  I'm just glad I'm not inside some of their minds...
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Lynne on October 13, 2008, 12:42:02 am
I was under the impression that bull-riding is a more macho/hard-core sport than calf-roping, which left me with the impression that the bartender was making a dig about Jack's rodeo skills.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on October 13, 2008, 09:35:36 am
I was under the impression that bull-riding is a more macho/hard-core sport than calf-roping, which left me with the impression that the bartender was making a dig about Jack's rodeo skills.


Well, I think that bull riding and calf roping are both pretty macho.  But, I do think this comment does have something to do with rodeo culture hierarchy.  My perception of things is that bull riding is seen as the most dangerous event and is often the highlight event (the popularity of the bull riding event led to the formation of the PBR, or Professional Bull Riders association, which highlights this event as it's own sport and the ability of bull riding as an event to draw crowds on its own).  

Calf roping seems to be about precision (in terms of aiming the rope and timing in keeping up with the calf).  Bull riding is about making cooridnating movements (or counter-moves) on the back of the bull, or reacting to the bull's direction changes with your own body.  So, the skill sets are different for the two events too.  And, I do think Jack's probably right that calf roping is a lot more expensive since you use your own, well-trained horse.  A bull rider just needs his chaps, glove, spurs and bull rope.  The bull would be owned by a stock contractor and the selection of bull traditionally would be random (there are some PBR events now where the riders can choose their bull, but those events are an exception to the norm).

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene (Send in the clowns)
Post by: Front-Ranger on October 13, 2008, 11:26:43 am
The origins of clowns may go back as far as the Dionysian rituals of ancient Greece. This major diety was called the Liberator (Eleutherios), freeing one from one's normal self, by madness, ecstasy, or wine. Clowns serve an important purpose in art because they meet some deeply rooted needs in humanity: violation of taboos, the mockery of sacred and profane authorities and symbols, reversal of language and action, and a ubiquitous obscenity.

Fear of clowns is widespread enuff to have a name, it is called coulrophobia.

When Jack approached Jimbo at the bar, Jimbo was still wearing some of his whiteface makeup.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on October 13, 2008, 07:01:20 pm
Merci Front-Ranger!

I enjoy learning a new word everyday:        coulrophobia...          is one among some others wonderful news you proviode in your post!

Do you wonder, as I, why Jimbo was still wearing some whiteface makeup?

Au revoir,
hugs!
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Kerry on October 13, 2008, 08:52:54 pm
"Far-fetched" would be a very nice way to word that interpretation, Lee.  In a bazillion years, I would never have thought of the "calf-roping" line to mean ANY thing other than "calf roping".  Makes me sick to think of it being interpreted in any other way than that.

Like Sue said, I guess different minds see things differently.  I'm just glad I'm not inside some of their minds...

What Mandy said. Not in my wildest imaginings did I ever consider this line had anything whatsoever to do with anything other than calf roping. Paedophilia? How very bizarre.  :-\
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: optom3 on October 13, 2008, 09:12:00 pm
What Mandy said. Not in my wildest imaginings did I ever consider this line had anything whatsoever to do with anything other than calf roping. Paedophilia? How very bizarre.  :-\

Have to agree also. I felt I had stumbled into some surreal, highly unpleasant universe when I caught up with this post. I think the issue of gay men,and the possible cause of Jack's demise is contraversial enough. I hardly think that either Lee or Proulx wanted, intended or even implied anything else. It is not an idea I want to entertain even briefly.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Mandy21 on October 14, 2008, 11:14:16 am

Well, I think that bull riding and calf roping are both pretty macho.  

Calf roping seems to be about precision (in terms of aiming the rope and timing in keeping up with the calf).  Bull riding is about making cooridnating movements (or counter-moves) on the back of the bull, or reacting to the bull's direction changes with your own body.  So, the skill sets are different for the two events too.  And, I do think Jack's probably right that calf roping is a lot more expensive since you use your own, well-trained horse.  A bull rider just needs his chaps, glove, spurs and bull rope.  The bull would be owned by a stock contractor and the selection of bull traditionally would be random (there are some PBR events now where the riders can choose their bull, but those events are an exception to the norm).



Amanda, as always, you put most of us to shame with your enlightening in-depth knowledge of the rodeo circuit.  I keep waiting for the day when they make you an on-air announcer at one of the events you attend.   ;D 

I am intrigued by what you said above, and had never really thought calf-roping would cost the rider more than it would cost them to ride bulls.  I always presumed that the horse had a proper owner (stock contractor, as you called it), and stable and all the care it needed, and the calf-roper just spent time training it from when it was young, and then riding it when there was an event.  Then again, I always presumed, that if the calf-roper/rider won an event, that he/she would split the winnings with the owner.  I don't know where I got these notions, but I'm curious now -- is it not done like that?  Please enlighten us some more when you get a chance!

Also, the second question is, if all you say is true, and was probably accepted as common knowledge in rodeo bars, what would lead that bartender to believe Jack had any extra money to pursue the more expensive sport?  Could it be as simple as the fact that Jack was generous enough with his money to buy Jimbo a beer?  Nah, it can't be that simple.  Any theories as to why?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Penthesilea on October 14, 2008, 11:23:44 am
I am intrigued by what you said above, and had never really thought calf-roping would cost the rider more than it would cost them to ride bulls.  I always presumed that the horse had a proper owner (stock contractor, as you called it), and stable and all the care it needed, and the calf-roper just spent time training it from when it was young, and then riding it when there was an event.  Then again, I always presumed, that if the calf-roper/rider won an event, that he/she would split the winnings with the owner.  I don't know where I got these notions, but I'm curious now -- is it not done like that?  Please enlighten us some more when you get a chance!


I'm no way as enlightened on all things rodeo as Amanda is (in fact, I barely have a clue), but it's in the movie itself: Jack's response to the bartender "Do I look like I could afford a f*in ropin' horse?".
I always took this for face value: calf ropers own their own (expensive) horses.


Quote
Also, the second question is, if all you say is true, and was probably accepted as common knowledge in rodeo bars, what would lead that bartender to believe Jack had any extra money to pursue the more expensive sport?  Could it be as simple as the fact that Jack was generous enough with his money to buy Jimbo a beer?  Nah, it can't be that simple.  Any theories as to why?

Maybe Lynne is on the right track here: the bartender making a dig against Jack's rodeo abilities as well as his poverty (resulting from not being a good bull-rider in the bartender's opinion).

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: optom3 on October 14, 2008, 01:01:08 pm

I'm no way as enlightened on all things rodeo as Amanda is (in fact, I barely have a clue), but it's in the movie itself: Jack's response to the bartender "Do I look like I could afford a f*in ropin' horse?".
I always took this for face value: calf ropers own their own (expensive) horses.


Maybe Lynne is on the right track here: the bartender making a dig against Jack's rodeo abilities as well as his poverty (resulting from not being a good bull-rider in the bartender's opinion).



I am pretty well in agreement with that. I always thought the bar tender was having a sly dig at Jack. Presumably knowing all the time he did not have the money, to do as suggested.It seems doubly cruel to me, as he is at the same time insinuating that Jack is both poor and a poor rodeo rider too.
I suspect in his time ,as with a lot of bartenders, he had seen most sorts and was pretty clued up, to Jack's financial situation and possibly even his sexuality. Jack's boots were pretty run down and would be a fairly clear indicator, that he was not flush with funds.

I think barmen/women are a bit like hairdressers, they get to hear and be told a lot.Particularly, the bar staff as alcohol loosens tongues.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on October 14, 2008, 01:27:03 pm
Kerry: you say:      Paedophilia? How very bizarre.
........         


Kerry: It might be bizzarre as you say, but doesn't paedophilia exist ?

It does exist in many cultures, as I noted in some which still prefers it as initiation or otherwise, plus aren't they clever in order not to be found? You know that don't you? Even in every country, there are some... it seems evident.

And, say, if not about paedophilia, why do you think that Jack is angry at the bartender's suggestion?

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on October 14, 2008, 01:46:12 pm
Amanda, as always, you put most of us to shame with your enlightening in-depth knowledge of the rodeo circuit.  I keep waiting for the day when they make you an on-air announcer at one of the events you attend.   ;D 

I am intrigued by what you said above, and had never really thought calf-roping would cost the rider more than it would cost them to ride bulls.  I always presumed that the horse had a proper owner (stock contractor, as you called it), and stable and all the care it needed, and the calf-roper just spent time training it from when it was young, and then riding it when there was an event.  Then again, I always presumed, that if the calf-roper/rider won an event, that he/she would split the winnings with the owner.  I don't know where I got these notions, but I'm curious now -- is it not done like that?  Please enlighten us some more when you get a chance!


Heya,

Well, as far as I understand to be a calf roper you need to train with your one particular horse for a long time so that you and the horse are working in perfect timing together.  It's not the kind of human-animal communication/rhythm that could be transfered very easily by switching horses a lot.   In team calf-roping it's even more intricate because two people need to have similarly trained horses and the timing/rhythm between the two people as well as between the people and the horses.  It seems possible that a scenario could come up where a calf roper simply works with and trains one horse owned by a separate stock contractor (as long as the rider and the individual horse were well acquainted with each other I'd think that would be enough).  But, my bet is that it simply is easier or maybe more common to own your own horse (even it this option would be much more expensive).

In bull riding, the bull is meant to be a "surprise" or an unfamiliar animal to the rider.  That's the challenge in bull riding... every bull is different (has different moves, spins different directions, kicks high, kicks low, etc.) and the rider needs to adjust to all those differences with each new ride.  A bull rider would certainly never need to own a bull in order to participate in the rodeo circuit whereas a calf roper needs to own the animal they use.

So, it's sort of the opposite in calf roping, where it's pretty much essential to have the horse be the same and familiar. The horse in calf roping wouldn't be "rough stock" or a wild horse...  It would be a tame, trained horse.


Other horse events, like saddlebronc riding and bareback riding would involve a "rough stock" (or nearly wild/ untrained horse) and those horses could be owned by a separate stock contractor.  I assume that the element of surprise/change animal to animal is part of the challenge in those horse events, much like bull riding.

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on October 14, 2008, 01:50:39 pm
Merci atz !

I just read your post, which somehow illustrates, to me, the reasons, why that bartendar was suggesting or telling Jack to become a         paedophile            !

Of course, that is like a secret code ? !

Au revoir,
hugs!
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on October 14, 2008, 02:01:24 pm
Merci atz !

I just read your post, which somehow illustrates, to me, the reasons, why that bartendar was suggesting or telling Jack to become a         paedophile            !

Of course, that is like a secret code ? !

Au revoir,
hugs!


My post above was simply about the differences between calf-roping and bull riding, which Mandy asked about. 

I don't believe my observations feed into any such discussion about the bartender or "secret codes" etc.



Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Penthesilea on October 14, 2008, 03:48:40 pm
Putting on my moderator hat on for a moment:

Discussions back and forth about pedophilia are not on topic on this thread. If anyone wants to discuss the Jimbo scene in regard to pedolphilia, please open another thread for it.

Thank you kindly!

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Penthesilea on October 14, 2008, 03:54:04 pm
*Taking off the mod hat and back to the topic at hand*


I am pretty well in agreement with that. I always thought the bar tender was having a sly dig at Jack. Presumably knowing all the time he did not have the money, to do as suggested.It seems doubly cruel to me, as he is at the same time insinuating that Jack is both poor and a poor rodeo rider too.


Yup. I just remembered the bartender's nod and look after Jack says his sentence about not being able to affort a roping horse. As if he wanted to say "sure enough" in a really sarcastic tone.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Front-Ranger on October 14, 2008, 04:03:35 pm
Now that you point it out, friends, it seems to me that the bartender, the farmers, Jimbo, L.D. and the calf ropers all look at Jack with a mixture of scorn and envy. The most sympathetic person, the other bartender, is only that way because Jack asks about Lureen, which is what a young man in a bar is supposed to do. He's following the script at that point, which is reinforced by the Texans.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on October 14, 2008, 04:15:00 pm
"Penthesilea":

So what if the subject of Pedophilia I repeat on the thread Jimbo Scene, is that since it may be that that the bartender talks about asking that jack becomes one !

Those who are offended should tell me so. Otherwise, they are hypocrites!

When I see many subjects repeated who offend me, I do not go and report it always; either I skip that, or try to understand their point of you.

So who are those which reported? Give me their names of each! That is the ONLY honest way!


Where is my freedom and freedom of others??  The Bettermost site is in the USA, so why are you letting anti-freedom dominate you and the site?

Awaiting you replies,

au revoir,
hugs!


Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Front-Ranger on October 14, 2008, 04:23:59 pm
Friend Artiste, You brought up the question of whether the bartender might be suggesting to Jack that he pursue children rather than Jimbo, and several people responded that they did not think that was what the scene implied. Now, we would like to go on to discussing other possible meanings of that scene. If you want to discuss pedophilia more, please start a new topic. You are welcome to continue discussing other aspects of the Jimbo scene, but we do not want to discuss pedophilia here any longer. Thank you.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Penthesilea on October 14, 2008, 04:30:41 pm
Friend Artiste, You brought up the question of whether the bartender might be suggesting to Jack that he pursue children rather than Jimbo, and several people responded that they did not think that was what the scene implied. Now, we would like to go on to discussing other possible meanings of that scene. If you want to discuss pedophilia more, please start a new topic. You are welcome to continue discussing other aspects of the Jimbo scene, but we do not want to discuss pedophilia here any longer. Thank you.

What Front-Ranger said.

This thread is also not the place to discuss my decision. You are free to disagree with it and to discuss my decision - but not on this thread. Please take it either to PMs or open a thread in a fitting forum (I suggest your blog area).
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on October 14, 2008, 04:33:44 pm
Then take off what I find offensive too!

Will you?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on October 14, 2008, 04:35:12 pm
Did you ever think about it Lucise?

To me, it is a valid subject can that be entertained, looked at, at least a bit!

Do you have trouble with it?

Au revoir...
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Penthesilea on October 14, 2008, 04:43:22 pm
To me, it is a valid subject can that be entertained, looked at, at least a bit!

Do you have trouble with it?


I don't have trouble with it. You are free to discuss it - here on BetterMost, but not on this thread.

I hope this is the last post about this topic. Otherwise I might consider closing the thread for a few hours.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on October 14, 2008, 04:44:23 pm
Then, will you take off what I find offensive?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Mandy21 on October 14, 2008, 04:48:16 pm
Thank you, Chrissie and Lee, both for your thoughts on the topic of this thread and for your efforts to stop this thread going into other directions.  

IMHO, I believe that the first bartender was maybe 70% being derogatory/insulting towards Jack, perhaps because he'd heard of the results of the day or perhaps because he didn't agree with one man buying a beer for another or perhaps because he knew Jimbo better than Jack did, I don't know, and 30% trying to be friendly, giving Jack possibly an alternate suggestion that he hadn't considered.  I believe that the second-night bartender, as one of you said, was much more friendly towards Jack simply because Jack was then asking about a beautiful girl, instead of chatting up a rodeo clown man.  I think Mr. Lee changed bartenders specifically, even though bartenders in a small town would generally stay the same from one night to the next, so that we could see the dichotomy of each of these men's pieces of advice and information towards Jack.  Do we know for sure if either of those bartenders had an opinion about homosexuality?  No, we don't.  All we do get to see is one of those bartenders maybe sort of semi-sneering at him, and one of those bartenders goading/enticing him along, as he can see Lureen is already well on her way to making her move.  Perhaps that's the only lesson we're meant to learn from those particular two scenes, is that every person has a different background and basis of knowledge, and some people feel the need to inflict it upon others, with or without their consent.

I truly believe that Jimbo picked up on Jack's half-hearted attempt at flirting, and was scared from it, and walked away.  And I think that Jack, after having lost that day so badly, accepted it.  And I think that, after having won on the second day, he walked back in there cocks-a-blazing, ready to stand up to anyone who looked at him funny.  And God love him for having that bravery in his soul.  Not many people would have, would they, after being humiliated so badly just a night before?  Doesn't really matter to me whether his relationship with Lureen turned out successful or not.  Least he had the balls to step up to the plate.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Penthesilea on October 14, 2008, 05:08:29 pm
Ok, this thread is locked for now. It will be re-opened in a few hours.

The last two posts about pedophilia will be moved have been moved to Artiste's blog area. Everyone who wants to discuss the pedophilia topic is welcome to continue the discussion there.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Penthesilea on October 15, 2008, 04:53:52 am
This thread is now unlocked again.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Lynne on October 15, 2008, 08:05:10 am
Let me stretch the clown/jester a bit more...

Maybe (Jester Jimbo's role is to tell (Prince) Jack truths that no one else is allowed or able to?  Can anyone expand on this?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Brown Eyes on October 15, 2008, 09:05:06 am
Let me stretch the clown/jester a bit more...

Maybe (Jester Jimbo's role is to tell (Prince) Jack truths that no one else is allowed or able to?  Can anyone expand on this?

Well, it certainly seems true that clowns in general have a long history within literature and playwriting (Shakespeare, etc.).

The origins of clowns may go back as far as the Dionysian rituals of ancient Greece. This major diety was called the Liberator (Eleutherios), freeing one from one's normal self, by madness, ecstasy, or wine. Clowns serve an important purpose in art because they meet some deeply rooted needs in humanity: violation of taboos, the mockery of sacred and profane authorities and symbols, reversal of language and action, and a ubiquitous obscenity.

Fear of clowns is widespread enuff to have a name, it is called coulrophobia.

When Jack approached Jimbo at the bar, Jimbo was still wearing some of his whiteface makeup.

And, it would be interesting to think more about Lee's comments here too.  I wonder how our brief glimpse of Jimbo at the bar fits into the definition of the clown described in Lee's post above?  I think it's significant that while Jimbo may have some make up remaining on his face, he's mostly completely out of costume.  We wouldn't probably immediately know he's a clown if not for Jack's comments and by the use of his nickname.  I wonder what Jimbo's real name is.  I've always assumbed that Jimbo was his clown name.

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Mandy21 on October 15, 2008, 12:30:25 pm
Well, it certainly seems true that clowns in general have a long history within literature and playwriting (Shakespeare, etc.).

And, it would be interesting to think more about Lee's comments here too.  I wonder how our brief glimpse of Jimbo at the bar fits into the definition of the clown described in Lee's post above?  I think it's significant that while Jimbo may have some make up remaining on his face, he's mostly completely out of costume.  We wouldn't probably immediately know he's a clown if not for Jack's comments and by the use of his nickname.  I wonder what Jimbo's real name is.  I've always assumbed that Jimbo was his clown name.



One of the things I was curious about was how did Jack even recognize Jimbo as the clown who helped save him?  I mean, he was racing away from a marauding, angry bull at the time.  How can you match up a person in full clown costume and makeup, to a guy sitting across from you at the bar later?  I'm sure the announcers of the event gave the names of the rodeo clowns at the beginning, so perhaps Jack recognized the name Jimbo from some other event, do you think, and then put two and two together when he saw him at the bar?  I can only think that Jack had seen Jimbo without his clown makeup at some time in the past, and took this one rescue as an opportunity to advance their prior meeting.  Thoughts on that?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on October 15, 2008, 05:55:54 pm
Lynne, can you detail ?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Front-Ranger on February 08, 2009, 04:33:31 pm
I suddenly realized one reason why Jack reacted so strongly when the bartender suggested he try calf-roping!! It was because he flashed back to the time on the mountain when Ennis told him his dad was a "fine calf-roper." Even though Jack didn't know about the horrible incident with Earl yet (he wouldn't find that out until the reunion) he still knew enuff about Ennis' dad to hate him and his ilk. Does this ring true for anyone else?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Monika on February 08, 2009, 05:09:24 pm
I suddenly realized one reason why Jack reacted so strongly when the bartender suggested he try calf-roping!! It was because he flashed back to the time on the mountain when Ennis told him his dad was a "fine calf-roper." Even though Jack didn't know about the horrible incident with Earl yet (he wouldn't find that out until the reunion) he still knew enuff about Ennis' dad to hate him and his ilk. Does this ring true for anyone else?

why do you think Jack hates Ennis´s dad even before he knew about the Earl incident?
does the "fine calf-roper" line have some hidden message?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Penthesilea on February 08, 2009, 05:30:33 pm
I suddenly realized one reason why Jack reacted so strongly when the bartender suggested he try calf-roping!! It was because he flashed back to the time on the mountain when Ennis told him his dad was a "fine calf-roper." Even though Jack didn't know about the horrible incident with Earl yet (he wouldn't find that out until the reunion) he still knew enuff about Ennis' dad to hate him and his ilk. Does this ring true for anyone else?


Huh? I second Buffy's question: why would Jack dislike, let alone hate Ennis's father (and his ilk) at this point of the story? Because of the "all rodeo cowboys was fuck-ups" comment?  - I don't think so. This was clearly teasingly said by Ennis. Jack couldn't know if Ennis's father had said this at all, or how and in which connection he had said it. After all, Ennis's father "was a fine roper" and did rodeo some, even when it was not much.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Front-Ranger on February 08, 2009, 05:51:22 pm
I just think Jack had a hunch that Ennis' family was responsible for Ennis being so repressed. For instance, one of the first things Jack asked Ennis was "Your folks run you off?"
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: pnwDUDE on February 08, 2009, 06:04:12 pm
I watched Brokeback Mountain on Friday. I was thinking about this thread, so I paid close attention to the Jack/Jimbo scene. Here is my take, and it may well have been already discussed:

1. Jimbo got uncomfortable after Jack's lingering stare. Jimbo looked away, then to the bar tender or staring off

2. He made the buckaroo comment, got up, put his money down, and walked away toward the group of guys over by the pool table

3. Jack turned on his stool and watched Jimbo walk away

4. Jack remained turned, watching Jimbo and the guys. At that point, the bar tender leaned forward and said, "you ever thought of calf-ropin'"?

IMO, what the bar tender was saying was something to the effect, 'you ever thought of trying to get a girlfriend' instead of coming on to guys. Jack didn't get it, and thought he was referring to calf-roping, which does require a good ropin' horse. They are very expensive.

Amazing how, after watching BBM for so many times, I still get little bits and pieces.

Brad
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on February 08, 2009, 06:19:48 pm
You sure surprise me Brad may I say!

I was hoping that you would see that scene with more meaning,
like Jack was told OFF, so to think of becoming a pederast!

You don't see that?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Monika on February 08, 2009, 06:23:50 pm
Sometimes when I watch that scene, I get the feeling that the bartender is flirting with Jack :)
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on February 08, 2009, 06:40:05 pm
Of course, he does buffy!

That is how he places Jack in an VULNERABLE position !!


No?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: pnwDUDE on February 08, 2009, 06:41:20 pm
You sure surprise me Brad may I say!

I was hoping that you would see that scene with more meaning,
like Jack was told OFF, so to think of becoming a pederast!

You don't see that?

pederast? (had to wiki )  I have no clue, as usual, what you are talking about.

Brad
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on February 08, 2009, 06:43:17 pm
One told Jack to calf-rope, which to me means go get a young stud?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: brokeplex on February 08, 2009, 07:12:07 pm
One told Jack to calf-rope, which to me means go get a young stud?

 :laugh: Artiste, you are a genius, I have never thought of those implications!

The bartender was trying to tell Jack, in a metaphorical way, that he needed to try to pick up teenage boys instead of men like Jimbo? Maybe, the film is chock full of visual and verbal metaphor, why not "calf roping" as a metaphor for sexual proclivity?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on February 08, 2009, 07:18:31 pm
Merci beaucoup brokeplex!

Yes, that is how I interpret that that bartender knows some pederast already,
since he is after all not bartending for nothing? Can I go that far too?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: brokeplex on February 08, 2009, 07:22:47 pm
Merci beaucoup brokeplex!

Yes, that is how I interpret that that bartender knows some pederast already,
since he is after all not bartending for nothing? Can I go that far too?

well, there is a visual statement being made in featuring the bartender as a man with rather long collar length hair and a partial beard. In the mid 1960's in rural TX, and that bar scene was supposedly in the Electra TX area in 1964-65, men DID NOT wear their hair that long, or have beards, unless they were old men. The bartender in the scene set later in Childress TX when Jack met Lureen is more typically shaven and with the shorter hair of the period.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on February 08, 2009, 07:29:06 pm
Brokeplex, are you suggesting that that long hair man/men, might be old child molesters, like pederasts?
Or short hair ones are maybe too pederasts?

To me fro accenting, the bartender knows his job,
and knowing people of ALL kinds,
like even their sexual desires,
he must know some pederast(s)?

You think that he does?

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: brokeplex on February 08, 2009, 07:32:10 pm
Brokeplex, are you suggesting that that long hair man/men, might be old child molesters, like pederasts?
Or short hair ones are maybe too pederasts?

To me fro accenting, the bartender knows his job,
and knowing people of ALL kinds,
like even their sexual desires,
he must know some pederast(s)?

You think that he does?



I am saying that the longer hair and the beard are inconsistent with the hair styles of 99% of men in that rural TX community in that time. Therefore, Ang Lee is making a statement using an actor with that length of hair.

NOW, what exactly that statement is, I don't know.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on February 08, 2009, 07:41:26 pm
Well said Bill:
     Ang Lee is making a statement using an actor with that length of hair.                   
..........

Could it be that Lee had place a wig on that actor?
Or that actor had such long hair as too contrastmore heavily
that scene in a diifferent way (such as to show dirty old gay or pederast man?):
as to Lee putting in an sugar daddy to ridicule  gays or pederasts??
I am just asking and pondering! Since I see Lee not as West-like minded that much!

Above all, it seems evident that the Jimbo scene
is there for many, many reasons, right?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Katie77 on February 08, 2009, 07:56:01 pm
OMG......now the bartender is a "pederast" because he has long hair.

"why dont you try calf roping" is now suggested to mean, "why dont you go out and get a young stud"

It is suggestions like this, and  distasteful concepts that turn a movie like Brokeback Mountain into some sordid, sexually perverted story.

It is suggestions like this, that turn around the real meaning of the story, saying that any movie about a gay love story has to contain all these hidden unnatural metaphoric statements.

What on earth was going through your minds while you watched this movie?

Did you ever see it for what it really was....
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on February 08, 2009, 08:11:52 pm
Katie, isn't there always different views and meanings to a story??

I take offence to some of your words, but never mind that, since it's your way of thinking right now.

Why do you think Lee and the writers (screen) one did the Jimbo scene FOR, to kiss Jack's butt, or for Jack to kiss the bartender, Jimbo, or the anti-gay gang Jimbo was creating against Jack??? Or what?

What is your take, view in that scene?

Inquiring minds wants to know!!!
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: brokeplex on February 08, 2009, 08:49:30 pm
I think that the comment about "twisted minds" would be entirely uncivil, that is if we weren't talking about Jack Twist.  :laugh:

newsflash - Brokeback Mountain ain't no Prayer Book, it is a great work of literature and a great film subject to as many interpretations as the human mind is capable of.

long live creative people like Artiste who can see outside the box.  ;D

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on February 08, 2009, 08:56:48 pm
Merci brokeplex for this:
     long live creative people like Artiste who can see outside the box.          

...............

I do not know exactly what is IN a box, and therefore, am curious as to what are the things  or the thing in it, as well as why and by whom / who (one or more persons) placed it!

Why was the JIMBO SCENE   PLACED as to INVENTED, according to you Brokeplex?


Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Katie77 on February 08, 2009, 09:05:49 pm
I have posted several opinions here, of what I think the Jimbo scene is trying to say in the movie.

I can only interpret it as I see it in the flow of the movie and the story.

That Jack was buying Jimbo a drink to form a friendship, preferably sexual, and he was embarrassed and angry that he had such a public refusal.

That the bartender was making conversation only, when he mentioned "calf roping", so as to extinguish the situation and change the mood in the bar.

That Jack's angry reaction to the bartender, was more an angry reaction to his rebuttle by Jimbo, and the fact that he felt that he had been rejected once again.

And then the movie flows on to the following day when he sees Laureen, and she shows some interest in him, and then they meet in the bar, and this time the scene is completely different from the night before. The bartender has a different approach to him, because he asking about a female, and it is someone else doing the "flirting" or being the approacher to him.

I think Ang is showing the comparison between the atmospheres of how people react to a male/male flirtation and a male/female flirtation.

I also think that it is a realization to Jack, that he is gonna have to conform to what society accepts, by changing his lifestyle from one of being a gay male living in a society of rejection, to that of a man maried and settling down.

It is just another phase of the story, that shows how difficult it is for a gay man to live in that atmosphere, and when he makes a decision against his emotions to try to get some acceptance.

This is what the story and the movie are all about, this is what was happening in the story from the first scene to the last scene.

To insinuate that in the middle of this movie, Ang would add unnessary and perverted metaphorical conversation, which would only be recognised by people with likewise thoughts, is absurd...absolutely absurd.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: RouxB on February 08, 2009, 09:13:59 pm

What on earth was going through your minds while you watched this movie?

Did you ever see it for what it really was....

Thanks for editing your post.

roux
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: brokeplex on February 08, 2009, 09:17:46 pm
"You say eether and I say eyether,
You say neether and I say nyther;
Eether, eyether, neether, nyther,
Let's call the whole thing off!
You like potato and I like potahto,
You like tomato and I like tomahto;
Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto!
Let's call the whole thing off!
But oh! If we call the whole thing off,
Then we must part.
And oh! If we ever part,
Then that might break my heart!
So, if you like pajamas and I like pajahmas,
I'll wear pajamas and give up pajahmas.
For we know we need each other,
So we better call the calling off off.
Let's call the whole thing off!"


thanks George and Ira Gershwin for that bit of wisdom way back in 1937!  :laugh:

(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg232/brokeplex/GERSHKR1.gif)
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on February 08, 2009, 09:24:23 pm
Well said Katie!

You do bring some good points... and may I thank you for that by this last post of yours!
I think that others as well as I do too!! Why not consider other perspectives?

Of course, you can easily say that other points of view are absurd, but that is not researching a subject, it seems to me... may I say, in order to dwell on many issues  and not only one issue!!!

One thing you make me think about, gladly, which I had not realized before (and do think about now thanks to you) is that the Jimbo scene is a [b]hinge[/b] one. May I add that it is, and also more than ONE hinges!!

The Jimbo scene is also INGERANCE French word; since I do not know the English word for that, maybe you do? Or someone here does? De tell please.

There are MANY, MANY horrible things that happens in the Jimbo scene; not that it is NOT only one bad happening; the dynamics are influencial, as the event, by extension, show possible murderers of   JACK? IT COULD VERY WELL BE, THAT THAT WAS THE AIM OF LEE? AND/OR BY ALSO THE SCREEN WRITER(S) ??

It is easy to describe like you do, and am happy with that, but can not at all limit myself to that! Because, unfortunately, the Brokeback Mountain movie is a drama, it contains numerous dramas, and not ONLY the lack and/or love between Ennis and Jack, and other forms of love (as you outlines a bit)!!

There are UNDERLYING conflicts in this movie, you can think about?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Monika on February 08, 2009, 09:33:03 pm
I think there's always that risk that we over interpret some scenes, in that we think that they mean more than they really do.
But this wouldn't exactly be the first time, I seem to recall discussions about bread and such.... ;D

But it's always interesting to just have fun with it and to throw different ideas out there and see what happens.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Katie77 on February 08, 2009, 09:36:53 pm
Everybody is entitled to their opinions on here, and from what I can see, everyone does.

And.... there are many scenes in the movie and the story that have been discussed, just like this one, and people's opinions are different from others.

And....there have been replies to posts from people with different opinions, quite openly disputing how someone came to a certain opinion.

If we tagged everyone who did not agree with someone else's opinion as "attacking forum members", then half of this forum would be obliterated.

Bettermost is a group of people from all walks of life, all different personalities and beliefs, and most of the opinions that people put in here, are based on their own personal views and morality.

It is clearly shown in most posts, how people interpret things the broad spectrum of people on here.

It is not my intent to change peoples opinion, but it doesnt stop me from wondering how they came to that opinion.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on February 08, 2009, 09:38:13 pm
Buffy, isn't there also the risk to skate easily on such a scene? And miss many things about it?
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on February 08, 2009, 09:49:10 pm
Merci Katie!

Openness and courage of opinion are important!!


Thanks for your delightful post!

You say:
        It is not my intent to change peoples opinion, but it doesn't stop me from wondering how they came to that opinion.         

........

Indeed there is no need to change somebody else's opnion, like you have yours about this Jimbo scene! That is good! Surely you added to it too, as this thread evolved. I was not accepted when I mentioned maybe pederastic is that scene and/or worst anti-gay it is, and now I am happy that my opinion or proofs might help myself and maybe others too !!

I am glad that you add that you WONDER how opinions came about; that inquisitiveness always helps a person; and society gets better because of it, I say!

I aim still to dwell about that Jimbo scene and you and others have added to it, which I like and which I envisage much more from you and from others, as well as from  myself!

This way, maybe you would have added it or deleted this Jimbo scene had you been Lee? - may I ask you and all ??
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Monika on February 08, 2009, 09:51:43 pm
Buffy, isn't there also the risk to skate easily on such a scene? And miss many things about it?
Sure, that can be the case
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on February 08, 2009, 09:58:52 pm
Merci buffy!

I skated easily at first, that Jimbo scene... unfortunately!

And now I see more about it! Do you?

I would also relate  it to other scenes?
(I am happy that Katie somehow suggested that in a way - related scenes to it!)
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: serious crayons on February 08, 2009, 10:21:34 pm
To insinuate that in the middle of this movie, Ang would add unnessary and perverted metaphorical conversation, which would only be recognised by people with likewise thoughts, is absurd...absolutely absurd.

In my three-plus years as a Brokie here and at imdb, I have quite often seen people theorize that the bartender was suggesting Jack look for younger guys.

It's a bit implausible to me, because it would seem like an odd thing for a bartender to recommend. But not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Jack had trouble with bulls (the real bull, plus the figurative bull, Jimbo), and might do better with calves -- that is, younger bulls, younger guys. Also, since the bartender was a pretty close witness to Jack's flirtation with Jimbo, he would likely be clued into Jack's interest in males in general.

I think Jack gets angry about the rejection but also feels threatens by the guys around the pool table, and bolts from the room so as to avoid any potential trouble. He's angry at the bartender either simply because he's embarrassed the bartender witnessed his strike out with Jimbo, or because he interprets the bartender to be referring to young guys and resents it because he's not interested in pedophilia.


Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on February 08, 2009, 10:33:27 pm
Merci beacoup serious!

Your post is indeed revealing much.

Of course about pedophilia, no one wants to talk about that!

And there seems to be absolutely no interest in Jack to like much younger guys than he is (or pedophilia even),
and maybe that is why that JUMBO scene exist (among other reasons);
so Lee and/or the screen writer(s) wanted to show that homosexuals are NOT pedophiles!
Could that be ONE reason   for the JIMBO scene?

(Considering that many cultures or persons still consider homosexuals (gay men) as ONLY being perverts or pedophiles??)
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: louisev on February 09, 2009, 12:34:00 am
In my three-plus years as a Brokie here and at imdb, I have quite often seen people theorize that the bartender was suggesting Jack look for younger guys.

It's a bit implausible to me, because it would seem like an odd thing for a bartender to recommend. But not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Jack had trouble with bulls (the real bull, plus the figurative bull, Jimbo), and might do better with calves -- that is, younger bulls, younger guys. Also, since the bartender was a pretty close witness to Jack's flirtation with Jimbo, he would likely be clued into Jack's interest in males in general.

I think Jack gets angry about the rejection but also feels threatens by the guys around the pool table, and bolts from the room so as to avoid any potential trouble. He's angry at the bartender either simply because he's embarrassed the bartender witnessed his strike out with Jimbo, or because he interprets the bartender to be referring to young guys and resents it because he's not interested in pedophilia.





I agree it's implausible as well, since the bartender just witnessed Jack trying to oil up the rodeo clown with a direct comment "Best damn rodeo clown I ever worked with," and winked at him.  The bartender did not miss this, so why would he start talking in code at that moment?   He would have said "Maybe you should try somebody your own age", instead of some veiled metaphor.  Since Jack was a bull rider, the bartender was just making conversation about other rodeo events to smooth over the awkward moment with Jimbo.  I do agree with you that Jack bolts from the bar because of his discomfort over what is happening at the pool table and what Jimbo might be telling them about him.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: serious crayons on February 09, 2009, 01:01:58 am

I agree it's implausible as well, since the bartender just witnessed Jack trying to oil up the rodeo clown with a direct comment "Best damn rodeo clown I ever worked with," and winked at him.  The bartender did not miss this, so why would he start talking in code at that moment?   He would have said "Maybe you should try somebody your own age", instead of some veiled metaphor.  Since Jack was a bull rider, the bartender was just making conversation about other rodeo events to smooth over the awkward moment with Jimbo.  I do agree with you that Jack bolts from the bar because of his discomfort over what is happening at the pool table and what Jimbo might be telling them about him.

But what the bartender would be saying in that hypothetical scenario is not "Maybe you should try someone your own age," but "Maybe you should try someone much younger than yourself" -- i.e., a "calf," not a bull. Therefore, a discrete veiled metaphor would be called for.

Yes, on the surface the bartender was simply trying to smooth over the moment. But much of the dialogue in the movie is both surface conversation plus metaphor. So John Twist says, "I know where Brokeback Mountain is," meaning 1) he can find it on the map and 2) he knew Jack was gay.

Look, I'm not defending this interpretation to the hilt. But I do think there's some grounds for holding it without it reflecting poorly on the viewer.

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: louisev on February 09, 2009, 01:21:10 am
But what the bartender would be saying in that hypothetical scenario is not "Maybe you should try someone your own age," but "Maybe you should try someone much younger than yourself" -- i.e., a "calf," not a bull. Therefore, a discrete veiled metaphor would be called for.

Yes, on the surface the bartender was simply trying to smooth over the moment. But much of the dialogue in the movie is both surface conversation plus metaphor. So John Twist says, "I know where Brokeback Mountain is," meaning 1) he can find it on the map and 2) he knew Jack was gay.

Look, I'm not defending this interpretation to the hilt. But I do think there's some grounds for holding it without it reflecting poorly on the viewer.



I can see that.  However, considering that the bartender was being played as a pretty open-faced, unpretentious Joe, the idea of his making a subtle pitch for nudge-nudge-wink-wink calf-roping just doesn't strike me as being in character for him or for the scene, nor did Jack, who was apparently very worldly wise in picking up men, respond to it in that way either.  He responded - literally.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: JudgeHolden on February 09, 2009, 04:26:15 am
Think theres a fair bit of overinterpretation going on here. The calf-roping remark is areference to the cowboys around the pool table who, as the screenplay says, got piggin strings looped on their shoulders. Piggin strings are used by calf ropers and it would stand to reason that a rodeo clown would be freinds with tha calf-ropers, as during that event, the clown would not be working (no need for him there) and by extension likely be off-duty and b.s.ing with the ropers during their event. Dring the bullriding and bronc events, there is the need for the clowns' distraction, so the relationship would more likely be a purely working one.

My interpretation is that this clown, for some reason, is uneased by Jacks overeager freindliness and maybe senses theres something under it, or maybe he just looks down on Jack as  a loser, but in anycase, he rejects his offer of a drink and goes back to his buddies around the pool table. Jack looks back and sees them talking, maybe Jimbo is telling them about this queer trying and hit on me, maybe he forgot all about Jack soona s he turned his back on him.

Then the bartender makes his comment, and it could be a "moving right along" subject-changer like "so how bout those Longhorns" or it could be a suggestion that if Jack wants to get in with Jimbo, he should take up the same event as his buddies, or it could also be seen as an underhanded comment on Jacks lack of success (that eveing, anyways) as a bullrider and a suggestion he take up the less dangerous (an maybe implicitly) less manly sport of calf-roping.

Jack doesnt know, but hes embarrassed at being shot down, and also suddenly hes paranoid, thinkin everyone in the place is whispering about him. I heard there was an different ending to this scene where its more clear that Jimbo "outs" Jack and outside the bar, the calf-ropers are jeering and hassling him, and I think the ambiguity is better. Your not exactly sure whats going down and neither is Jack, and this highlights his potential vulnerabilty, if he was to be caught out in the open, as well as giving the truth to Ennis fears on their making a life together. The risks were real and could boil up from nowhere. Therer are potential enemies all around.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Katie77 on February 09, 2009, 08:05:59 am
Sounds pretty much how it is Judge........thanks for the info on the cow ropers, gives a lot more meaning to the bartenders statement.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: serious crayons on February 09, 2009, 09:59:22 am
JudgeHolden and Louise, I think those are perfectly legitimate interpretations of the scene. As I said, I'm not sold on the other interpretation of "calf ropin," I just think there's an argument to be made for it that does not necessarily mean anything negative about the arguer.

However, IMO, "overinterpretation" is almost impossible in BBM. There is always far, far more going on than meets the eye, and I'm always willing to give anything a fair shake if it's based on evidence in the movie itself (as opposed to ideas like, "LD Newsome had Jack killed!" or other wild-eyed ideas for which there's no evidence at all).

Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on February 09, 2009, 11:29:29 am
Interesting posts you gals and guy!

I still stick to my point that Jack was told off  ardently,
in more than one way and by more than one person:
by the bartender, by the clown, by those  anti-gay gang-up the clown makes!!!

The situation became dangerous, maybe even a la Mathew Sheppard,
since they ridiculed Jack, they ALL did!!! So, what would be next?
To kill Jack for being gay, even to catch him if he ever did a pederast act?
It all comes down to belittle Jack, debasing him,
chastising him for being a homosexual man!!

There are some points which each one of you make that could be used as proofs
of that danger (in each of your post), but you likely you do not realize that, not yet!

Re-think by re-reading your post? May I ask?

Au revoir,
hugs!
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Front-Ranger on April 03, 2009, 10:16:37 pm
Think theres a fair bit of overinterpretation going on here. The calf-roping remark is areference to the cowboys around the pool table who, as the screenplay says, got piggin strings looped on their shoulders. Piggin strings are used by calf ropers and it would stand to reason that a rodeo clown would be freinds with tha calf-ropers, as during that event, the clown would not be working (no need for him there) and by extension likely be off-duty and b.s.ing with the ropers during their event. Dring the bullriding and bronc events, there is the need for the clowns' distraction, so the relationship would more likely be a purely working one.

My interpretation is that this clown, for some reason, is uneased by Jacks overeager freindliness and maybe senses theres something under it, or maybe he just looks down on Jack as  a loser, but in anycase, he rejects his offer of a drink and goes back to his buddies around the pool table. Jack looks back and sees them talking, maybe Jimbo is telling them about this queer trying and hit on me, maybe he forgot all about Jack soona s he turned his back on him.

Then the bartender makes his comment, and it could be a "moving right along" subject-changer like "so how bout those Longhorns" or it could be a suggestion that if Jack wants to get in with Jimbo, he should take up the same event as his buddies, or it could also be seen as an underhanded comment on Jacks lack of success (that eveing, anyways) as a bullrider and a suggestion he take up the less dangerous (an maybe implicitly) less manly sport of calf-roping.

Jack doesnt know, but hes embarrassed at being shot down, and also suddenly hes paranoid, thinkin everyone in the place is whispering about him. I heard there was an different ending to this scene where its more clear that Jimbo "outs" Jack and outside the bar, the calf-ropers are jeering and hassling him, and I think the ambiguity is better. Your not exactly sure whats going down and neither is Jack, and this highlights his potential vulnerabilty, if he was to be caught out in the open, as well as giving the truth to Ennis fears on their making a life together. The risks were real and could boil up from nowhere. There are potential enemies all around.

After reading more of Larry McMurtry's work, i.e. Lonesome Dove, judgeholden's ideas ring true. That really does seem like the right interpretation of this scene.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: retropian on April 03, 2009, 11:31:34 pm
JudgeHolden and Louise, I think those are perfectly legitimate interpretations of the scene. As I said, I'm not sold on the other interpretation of "calf ropin," I just think there's an argument to be made for it that does not necessarily mean anything negative about the arguer.

However, IMO, "overinterpretation" is almost impossible in BBM. There is always far, far more going on than meets the eye, and I'm always willing to give anything a fair shake if it's based on evidence in the movie itself (as opposed to ideas like, "LD Newsome had Jack killed!" or other wild-eyed ideas for which there's no evidence at all).

Oh I agree! I love how the variety of idea's and interpretations enrich my understanding of BBM. Each idea here adds something valuable to the discourse and deepens my appreciation of the film. I can't say I disagree with any of these ideas, I don't think any of them are incompatible with the film, or with each other. It's possible to hold several different interpretations as valid simultaneously. I enjoy that sensation, that state of mind.
Title: Re: Importance of the Jimbo Scene
Post by: Artiste on April 05, 2009, 05:30:19 pm
Merci beaucoup retropian !

You do have a rare open mind by saying:
         Oh I agree! I love how the variety of idea's and interpretations enrich my understanding of BBM. Each idea here adds something valuable to the discourse and deepens my appreciation of the film. I can't say I disagree with any of these ideas, I don't think any of them are incompatible with the film, or with each other. It's possible to hold several different interpretations as valid simultaneously. I enjoy that sensation, that state of mind.             
...

Retropian, may I say that I am glad that you enjoy such diversity about this scene!

I now wonder if this was about Easter time?

Au revoir,
hugs!