When Jack and Ennis see each other for the first time (outside Aguirre’s trailer), are they checking each other out because they are attracted to each other or because they each wonder “Who is this guy? Is he gonna get the job instead of me?”
Diane – Personally, I think they are checking each other out because they are attracted to each other. (Especially since, inside the trailer) they look at each other again, knowing that they will both be working on BBM.
Ruthlessly – I think it’s both.
Mikaela -- Checking each other out, curiosity, "who is this guy, will we get along" - all of that. Plus certainly making note of how the other one looks, and both liking what they see.
Katherine -- They'd be strange not to check out the guy they're signing on to spend two months working with in total isolation (if it's Timmy, there's still time to back out). But the scene wouldn't last as long as it does there weren't more going on. And, in fact, they DO find each other attractive. So, both.
Amanda= I think it's both. But, primarily it's attraction.
Jane - my first impression was that they were both just wondering “who is this guy, is he after the same job as me?” but now that I am more BBM savvy , I think Jack was checkin him out, and struttin to entice Ennis’ interest. Ennis was just bein Ennis, he was helplessly attracted to Jack.
When Ennis says, “you may be a sinner …..” does this mean he is a virgin?
Diane – Yes
Ruthlessly – It’s the best meaning I’ve been able to come up with...
Mikaela -- Yes
Katherine -- I guess so, though it has always seemed like a strange thing for a 19-year-old guy to say.
Amanda= Yes. I agree, that I think this shows he's truly come to see Jack as his confidant. And I half-wonder whether this is Ennis's awkward... and maybe even sub-conscious... attempt at flirting. I think it's a reference to his virgiinity, and Lee clues us into this with the immediate cut to the TS1 sequence.
Jane - yes
Does Jack purposely get Ennis drunk before TS1 to lower Ennis’ inhibitions so they can have sex? Or, does Jack get excited at the point when Ennis lies beside him?
Diane – IMO, there was no preplanning on Jack’s part. He became excited when Ennis’ warm body was lying beside his.
Ruthlessly – I agree.
Mikaela -- jack did not get Ennis drunk on any kind of purpose
Katherine -- He didn't purposely get Ennis drunk. But he'd been hoping for a while for a chance to ... get closer. That's part of why he says, "That's not the point -- we should both be in this camp." When Ennis decided to stick around for the night Jack saw a possible opportunity, so he encourages Ennis (twice) to join him in the tent.
Amanda= I think Jack has been trying to figure out a way for the two of them to be in the main camp together for most of their time on the mountain. I think his cute bitching is all about trying to "get the opportunity" to share the tent with Ennis. I think this is why he seems hesitant when Ennis suggests the job switch. I think instead of wanting Ennis to offer to tend the sheep himself, Jack was hoping Ennis would say "forget about sleeping out with the sheep and come stay in the main camp instead. But, no I don't think Jack deliberately got Ennis drunk. Whiskey is just part of a good time for both of them. I don't think there were ulterior motives.
Jane – Yes and yes!
At the time of TS1 – had Jack or Ennis ever have sex with another man?
Diane – No.
Ruthlessly – Ennis, no. Jack, quite possibly.
Mikaela -- Ennis, no. Jack, probably.
Katherine -- Ennis, no way. Jack, can't tell.
Amanda= Ennis no (I truly think he's a virgin. Jack is his first-time and his first love). Jack, well I'd like to think this is symmetrical with Ennis here (well, I'm sure this is also Jack's first love)... But I wonder, despite the grimmacing and pounding, if Jack is having an easier time of it than would be likely for a virgin (**insert non-existent blushing smilie here... maybe a few blushing smilies**). Maybe Jake was trying to convey this (discomfort, pain, etc.) with the pounding... but it seems like it would probably be even more intense than that if Jack was a virgin. I guess on this topic, I'll defer to people who might know more about this than me.
Jane - Jack? Yes, I think so. Ennis? No, Ennis was a virgin.
When Ennis awakens and realizes where his hand is …. is his first reaction to hit Jack?
Diane – Yes. When he gets past the “surprise” element, passion overtakes him … and (you know the rest). ::)
Ruthlessly – No. It seems his first reaction was to get away from it. Then he went into confusion as to what Jack was doing. Then Jack showed him by putting Ennis’ hand on Jack’s crotch. Then Jack took off his coat. Then Ennis figured he’d gotten enough signals. And the rest is history.
Mikaela -- First reaction seems to be getting away.
Katherine -- Ennis bolts up in surprise, sees what's going on, makes a quick mental calculation, not all of it fully conscious: "Here's something I always told myself I'd never, ever do -- in fact, half convinced myself I don't want to do. But let's face it, I really do want to do it -- in fact, have been wanting to with Jack for weeks -- and here's my big chance." In those five seconds, his life changes.
Amanda= No. It looks to me like he might be trying to head for the tent flap... just a bit before Jack grabs him. I agree, Ennis changes his mind/ recognizes that this is his big opportunity as soon as Jack sits up. It also looks like Jack pulls Ennis's hand back to his crotch again almost immediately once he sits up and grabs Ennis's sleeve. It's hard to tell because their hands are off screen in the widescreen edition, but from the angle of their arms this seems possible.
Jane - no, his first reaction is WTF?!!! PS: You're right Amanda, he is putting his hand back, if you watch the Fullscreen you get more of a sense of that.
The morning after TS1 … Ennis gives Jack a look. Is that a look of concentration (i.e. focusing on what he needs to do for the day) or a look of disgust or something else?
Diane – I don’t think he is concentrating on his duties for the day. I think he wants to get his but out of there fast. The look he gives Jack, IMO, is one of disgust. He takes the time, when he is alone, to gather his thoughts and process what has just happened.
Ruthlessly – I agree. But disgust at what? At Jack, at himself, at the situation?
Mikaela -- I see as much concentration and incredulity as disgust in that look
Katherine -- I think it's a look like, Are you kidding? You're asking a routine question about supper -- making the assumption that everything will be "normal" -- when I haven't even figured out how to think about what happened last night.
Amanda= I think it's confusion mixed with a headache.
Jane - I hate to say it, but I think it is a look of disgust. I think he can’t get away from the camp (and Jack) fast enough. He just wants to get out of there without having to face Jack.
Is there significance in Jack washing their shirts together while he is (primarily) nude?
Diane – Yes. It shows Jack’s vulnerability. He is not just washing his own shirt; he is also washing Ennis’. Both shirts were worn when they, IMO, made love.
Ruthlessly – Yes to significance, but Ennis didn’t wear THE shirt in FNIT, he wore the OTHER shirt in FNIT. In SNIT Ennis wore THE shirt so he had to have changed his shirt after the “ain’t queer” scene and before the SNIT.
Mikaela -- Yes, I'm certain there is. Especially since the realism of Jack doing that seems a little fussy to me, so surely symbolism must be involved.
Katherine -- Yes to significance and vulnerability. The scene, accompanied by spooky music, suggests a connection with the slaughtered sheep immediately before. It's also connected to Alma washing Ennis' shirt, in that case emphasizing the contrast between nature and society. Alma is indoors, using tap water, fully clothed.
Amanda= Yes, I agree that it's primarily about vulnerability. And, I think the vulnerability is about more than his emotions about Ennis. I think the immediate cut from the dead sheep to Jack's body is meant to be about his own vulnerability to "predator loss." The gay men= sacrificial lambs metaphor. When Ennis was away from the sheep for TS1 a lamb died. When Ennis is not there with Jack (his own black sheep, so to speak), Jack dies too. Anyway, I think the naked-laundry + dead sheep montage sets up this theme.
Jane - I don’t know what the significance is…. I'm am not into symbolism or hidden meanings.... I know from a practical standpoint that Jack cannot be naked to warsh his jeans and wait for them to dry, that is impossible, it would take at least 20 hours for the jeans to dry! I have hand-warshed clothing on a camping trip, and it takes a loooooong time for the clothes to dry, no wringer nor spin cycle, don’tcha know? So why did he have his pants off, I have no idea why that is.
After both Jack and Ennis have time to think over what happened the night before, did they both feel remorse?
Diane – Yes and no. When Ennis and Jack are on the hill overlooking the sheep, I think they are both trying to convince themselves that this is something they shouldn’t have done. That’s the importance of TS2 …. they have accepted this is something bigger than themselves and are drawn back to each other. Not in a sexual way, but in a loving way.
Ruthlessly – Ooooo, I don’t agree that they were both trying to convince themselves that this was something they shouldn’t have done. I agree that SNIT was a loving sexual expression, but not because they have accepted this is something bigger than themselves.
Mikaela -- No
Katherine -- I also don't agree that either feels remorse by then. Jack, not in the least. Ennis was initially unsure, but has spent the day processing it and decided s'alright, he's going to go for it. Once they've established the guidelines (one shot, ain't queer) they're on their way to TS2.
Amanda= No. I don't think remorse is a factor.
Jane - Remorse? Ennis, maybe. Jack, naw, he wanted it. And I think he was already infatuated with Ennis.
TS2 – (yes, I am opening this can of worms) – does Jack say, “It’s alright”? Does Ennis say, “I’m sorry”? Does Jack respond by saying, “It’s alright. C’mon. Lie back”?
Diane – Yes. IMO, it’s the only way it makes sense (which also harkens back to Ennis’ reaction to Jack the morning after).
Ruthlessly – I’ve heard that if it’s Jack who says the “I’m sorry,” then it refers to the fact that Jack is sorry that he drew Ennis into this without taking Ennis’ feelings into consideration the first time. Why doesn’t this make sense? It harkens back to Jack’s actions in the FNIT.
Mikaela -- I only hear and see Jack speaking. "I'm sorry - s'alright -s'alright" Though the first one sounds half like a s'alright as well. I have never seen the need to get so very up in arms about this issue.
Katherine -- I've gone back and forth. I'd much rather it be Ennis saying "I'm sorry," but with my face inches from the screen I have to lean toward Jack saying "s'alright" several times.
Amanda= In the theatres I always heard Ennis say "I'm sorry". And, I always hear Jack saying "It's alright" twice. This statement (or set of statements by Jack) are emphasized by the way he sort of shakes Ennis's face as he says them. I don't think it makes sense for Jack to say "I'm sorry" and then "It's alright." It would be like he's responding to his own apology. No, I think he's responding to Ennis either saying "I'm sorry" for being difficult during the day or for his awkwardness in not quite knowing what to do. I sort of wonder if Jack's confidence in TS2 might also indicate that this is not his first physical relationship with a man (thinking back to the earlier question).
Jane - can a worms? Oh NOOOOO!!! not that old bugaboo again! Arghhhhh!! ;) ;D I think that Jack says “s’alright” x 3, and Ennis says nothing. Here is a link to the Poll and the debate from the DC Forum:
http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=2423.0 (http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=2423.0)
I am with the majority.
When Aguirre is looking through his binoculars, does he see them only kissing or having sex?
Diane – IMO, I think they have sex after they kiss and Aguirre sees the whole thing. (Notice that Ennis belt is undone. Of course, the implication could be that they had sex before Aguirre saw them. I like to think it was both.) ;D
Ruthlessly – It looks to me as if they had sex and then the happy tussle and then Aguirre sees them tussling and kissing. Why would you like to think that Aguirre saw them doin’ the nasty?
Mikaela -- He sees them having sex - he even times them at it.
Katherine -- I think Aguirre saw enough, but I have no way of knowing exactly what.
Amanda- I think he sees them finishing having sex (Jack buttoning his pants... Ennis's dirty knees) and then the tussle, kiss and then maybe sex again. I think Ennis knocking Jack's hat off means that he's not quite done (insert that blushing icon again). If Proulx is to be believed or sited he definitely sees them having sex. I think Aguirre must have seen them having sex since he makes the "rose stemming" comment later.
Jane - I think that Aguirre has just seen them have sex. He checks his watch to see how long he has been watching already. And then Ennis goes in for another kiss, and the boys fool around some more. :-* And Aguirre waits...
Is the storm and the mix up of the sheep a symbol of what is yet to come?
Diane – Yes. IMO, this symbolizes Ennis’ feelings when he realizes they are leaving BBM. In a way, I think the storm represents how Ennis reacts … out of anger. He can not deal with all of his mixed emotions, so he lashes out at Jack (the person who is closest … the person he loves).
Ruthlessly – I agree that these two things are symbolic and involve foreshadowing. I can go with your interpretation on a subtext level, but I also see metaphor here.
Mikaela -- Yes
Katherine -- I think the mixup represents Ennis' feelings about what's happening or going to happen. One set of sheep is his love for Jack, the other his homophobia. They're all mixed up, but he'd better untangle them if he wants to work for Aguirre again (be with Jack). I don't think it has anything to do with anger or lashing out at Jack.
Amanda- Everything in this film is a symbol for something yet to come, something unspoken, etc.
Jane - the storm? Uhm, well, I dunno…. I am not into symbolism.
During their four years apart, does Jack have sex with other men?
Diane – Yes. I think that is why the scene with the rodeo clown was inserted … to show that Jack was checking out other men.
Ruthlessly – I agree. I think another reason the Jimbo scene is there is show Jack’s attraction to men who resemble Ennis and to set the stage for Jack’s willingness to go along with Lureen picking him up.
Mikaela -- Yes. And also the Jimbo scene serves to demonstrate that Jack is aware of the need to be careful, and the not inconsiderable risk to himself involved in attempting picking up the wrong guy. Sometimes that point drowns a little in discussing Ennis's fear of being outed.
Katherine -- Jimbo is supposed to resemble Ennis. But Jack strikes out with Jimbo and, in the movie anyway, there's no evidence he ever gets luckier than that. He is increasingly frustrated: no men, no money. Then along comes Lureen.
Amanda= It's hard to tell. I think he certainly wants to.
Jane – yeah, maybe once or twice, during the four years apart. The thing I can’t figure out is why did he wait four f’n years to go looking for Ennis? Why not just two? Or one? Or three?