BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum

Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond => Brokeback Mountain Open Forum => Topic started by: Brown Eyes on January 13, 2009, 03:24:38 pm

Title: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 13, 2009, 03:24:38 pm
Currently, I'm right in the middle of reading Lonesome Dove!  It's something I've been meaning to do as a good Brokie activity for a long time.  It kind of feels like Brokie homework to me.  But, in a good way.  I'm really pleasantly surprised by how much I like the book so far.  I've never seen the mini-series.  So, in many ways I feel like I'm well behind the times when it comes to Lonesome Dove.  Knowing more about this major piece by McMurtry seems important to understanding the film of BBM though.

I became curious to read it mainly due to various Brokie conversations and even some interviews by McMurtry where it was suggested that there are many similarities between LD and BBM.  The most significant similarity seems to be the examination of intense relationships between men.  When McMurtry says that he "should have written" BBM, I think (and this idea is largely thanks to Katherine here too) he means he wishes or he could have inserted a romantic relationship between cowboys into LD pretty easily, but he didn't go that far.

Anyway, again, I'm only less than half way through the book at the moment.  I'm at about page 350 and my copy is over 900 pages long.  There are lots and lots of things that jump off the page as very familiar to me due to my familiarity with BBM.  And, LOL, sometimes I have a jolt when feeling like McMurtry has somehow inserted a Brokieism into Lonesome Dove.  But, of course the reality is that he instead iserted a "Lonesome Dove-ism" into BBM.  In some ways it feels a bit competitive... like he's inserted his own stamp into the fabric of BBM in terms of the screenplay. 

At least two phrases come to mind (as I sit here at work thinking about this)... one is "not the marrying kind" and the other is "talks a blue streak."  Those two phrases were prominently used in Lonesome Dove.

Also little details, like big hunks of bacon.  The image of Jack hoisting the bacon slab (I think that's what it is) in the scene where he and Ennis are setting up camp on Brokeback... seems to be a little nod to LD.  Slabs of bacon are constantly referenced in LD as a main food staple.

I have another whole theory or idea about the issue of "going to Mexico" in LD vs. in BBM.  But, I'll save that for some future post.


<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/6312823-5d9.jpg" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/6312822-d66.jpg" border="0" />

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3109506-aec.jpg" border="0" />  <img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3109507-700.jpeg" border="0" />



Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 13, 2009, 03:51:06 pm
I have a copy of the book and have been meaning to read it! This will give me even more impetus! When we were watching the movie together on Saturday, I noticed when Randall said LaShawn "talks a blue streak" and it reminded me of the blue streak of light at the very end of the movie, in between the window and the closet.

I will be very interesting to see what LM says about Mexico. In some of the novels of Cormac McCarthy, a character goes to Mexico and it is a transformative, coming of age experience. I'm thinking chiefly of Cities of the Plain, the third book in his western trilogy that begins with All the Pretty Horses.

Thanks for starting this topic!!
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 13, 2009, 03:58:13 pm
I have a copy of the book and have been meaning to read it! This will give me even more impetus! When we were watching the movie together on Saturday, I noticed when Randall said LaShawn "talks a blue streak" and it reminded me of the blue streak of light at the very end of the movie, in between the window and the closet.

I will be very interesting to see what LM says about Mexico. In some of the novels of Cormac McCarthy, a character goes to Mexico and it is a transformative, coming of age experience. I'm thinking chiefly of Cities of the Plain, the third book in his western trilogy that begins with All the Pretty Horses.

Thanks for starting this topic!!

Hi Lee!

It would be great if you start reading it! (Nudge, nudge!!!) ;)  I'm really itching to talk to someone about this book. :)

I don't want to say a lot that's too spoiler-ish here.  But, I have a lot to say about various comparisons!  There's about a hundred years difference between the narrative of BBM and LD... which, is also a hugely fascinating thing when it comes to observations about lifestyles... the meanings of various phrases, etc.  Things that were once necessities that become aesthetic in later time periods, etc.

The book by McMurtry that I might read later down the road is Streets of Laredo.  I'm sure that's another McMurtry-ism that was inserted into BBM.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: belbbmfan on January 13, 2009, 03:59:41 pm
Thanks Amanda for that interesting review. I haven't read the book, or seen the series. But now, I'm intrigued. I read that his first response when he finished reading Brokeback Mountain was 'I wish I had written that'.

I'll have a look at amazon. See if I can order it.

And LOL at 'brokie homework'!  :D
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 13, 2009, 04:03:11 pm
Thanks Amanda for that interesting review. I haven't read the book, or seen the series. But now, I'm intrigued. I read that his first response when he finished reading Brokeback Mountain was 'I wish I had written that'.

I'll have a look at amazon. See if I can order it.

And LOL at 'brokie homework'!  :D

Oooooooo, it would be great if you can get a copy!  Let's start a "book club"!

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Clyde-B on January 13, 2009, 04:11:30 pm
OMG!  Amanda's the new Oprah!
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 13, 2009, 04:14:02 pm
OMG!  Amanda's the new Oprah!

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


So... Clyde, are you going to join the book club?

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: David In Indy on January 13, 2009, 04:17:05 pm
I've seen the series. It was very good btw. I never read the book though. I wasn't even aware there was a book. The next time I'm at the bookstore I'll look for a copy. Even if the book is out of print, we have some used bookstores here, and I might find it there, although I'd rather own a new copy if at all possible.

I'm curious as to how much the series deviated from the book.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 13, 2009, 04:24:20 pm
I've seen the series. It was very good btw. I never read the book though. I wasn't even aware there was a book. The next time I'm at the bookstore I'll look for a copy. Even if the book is out of print, we have some used bookstores here, and I might find it there, although I'd rather own a new copy if at all possible.

I'm curious as to how much the series deviated from the book.

Heya David!  It's not out of print.  And, you can usually find really pretty inexpensive mass-media format pocket sized books.  That's the kind I have... it's shaped mostly like a brick because it's so long.

It would be great if you could join the book club!

And, yeah, this is the book for which McMurtry won his Pulitzer Prize.  So, it seems to be the key work to read by him.  Or at least probably the main one to think of first (at least for me) when it comes to comparisons with BBM.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Clyde-B on January 13, 2009, 04:26:04 pm
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


So... Clyde, are you going to join the book club?



I've never been in a book club before, so I don't know how they work.  (Other than buying the book and having snacks and drinks every few weeks.  :laugh:)

But I've never read "Lonesome Dove" and this sounds like a great excuse!
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 13, 2009, 04:33:20 pm
I've never been in a book club before, so I don't know how they work.  (Other than buying the book and having snacks and drinks every few weeks.  :laugh:)

But I've never read "Lonesome Dove" and this sounds like a great excuse!

 :D  In our BBM/ LD (LD= Lonesome Dove... not to be confused with Jack's father-in-law  :laugh: ) book club, we will be drinking any of the following 3 options... whiskey, Budweiser out of longneck brown bottles, or coffee.  Snacks will consist of beans, elk, round steak and cherry cake... and bacon (we'll throw that in there as a nod to Lonesome Dove).  And, we will be posting our observations to this thread! Hopefully!

I really think it would be super fun if a group of us read this together.  And, the most fun for us will probably be trying to relate it to BBM.  The 300+ pages I've read so far really do feel strangely familiar and kind of comforting in an odd way.  Really so much is reminiscent of BBM, but at the same time completely different in terms of story.



Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 13, 2009, 04:45:43 pm
You might find this post over in The Culture Tent to be interesting

Books by Larry McMurtry, A Memoir (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,21918.0.html)
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: mariez on January 13, 2009, 04:48:59 pm
What a great idea, Amanda! 

Lonesome Dove is one of my favorite books.  I've read it several times (and I've seen the mini-series more than once, also), but it's been a few years and I'd love to do another re-read, with an eye toward BBM connections.  I'm sure there are all kinds of details I've forgotten.  As you point out, it's a large book. 

I've read all of the books in the Lonesome Dove series, but I think the first one remains my favorite.  I believe Streets of Laredo is the final installment. 

By way of warning, there was a sequel to the mini-series made (Return to Lonesome Dove), but it was done without McMurty's blessing and he was not pleased to put it mildly.  I read something once where he referred to it as "spurious."  I never had any interest in watching it.

Marie
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 13, 2009, 04:59:16 pm
What a great idea, Amanda! 

Lonesome Dove is one of my favorite books.  I've read it several times (and I've seen the mini-series more than once, also), but it's been a few years and I'd love to do another re-read, with an eye toward BBM connections.  I'm sure there are all kinds of details I've forgotten.  As you point out, it's a large book. 

I've read all of the books in the Lonesome Dove series, but I think the first one remains my favorite.  I believe Streets of Laredo is the final installment. 

By way of warning, there was a sequel to the mini-series made (Return to Lonesome Dove), but it was done without McMurty's blessing and he was not pleased to put it mildly.  I read something once where he referred to it as "spurious."  I never had any interest in watching it.

Marie


This is great Marie!!  I'd love to hear your opinions about the BBM/LD connections as someone who has a great deal of knowledge about LD (the book and mini-series) as well as his other books and, of course, BBM too.

For me, so far, some of the similarities (or points of comparison) are really specific... like the lines ("talks a blue streak" or "not the marrying kind") that appear verbatum in both LD and BBM.   And, then there are broader symbolic things that are very familiar from our BBM talks... the moon, bears, drowning...

And, then the sweeping things like the relationships between men.

Of course, there are lots of differences too.  And, again, the shift in cowboy culture that occured in only about 100 years is really fascinating to me.  It's interesting to see McMurtry applying some of the same concepts to such different time periods, which of course, alters the meaning of some of those concepts.


But, as I mentioned before, I'm only about 300 pages into it and haven't seen the mini series.  So, my reactions are still formulating.


Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: twtplanner on January 13, 2009, 05:53:19 pm
This is a great book and great mini-series.  There's even the ol' mysterious line "I swear" said by Newt Dobbs (Rick Schroder) towards the end of the story, when the cattle drive is complete, and one of the drovers who is Newt's best friend, decides to leave.  When he rides off, Newt is watching him go and says the line to himself.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 13, 2009, 05:57:59 pm
This is a great book and great mini-series.  There's even the ol' mysterious line "I swear" said by Newt Dobbs (Rick Schroder) towards the end of the story, when the cattle drive is complete, and one of the drovers who is Newt's best friend, decides to leave.  When he rides off, Newt is watching him go and says the line to himself.

 :o  Wow!  I haven't gotten to that part yet!  But, it seems like a really interesting point for the BBM/ LD comparisons!

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on January 13, 2009, 06:36:37 pm


        I watched the mini series, and also read the book.  For those of you who have not done so.  Let me tell you.  The series is exactly like the book.
I had watched the series.  Then was compelled to read the book,(To get more detail)  but it had no more detail.  The conversations and everything
were the same.  I will say however, it has been a lot of years since I read it.  I have rewatched the series again however.  I loved it.
       The casting was perfect, and the whole feel of it was wonderful.  Maybe I should read the book again.?

        I never watched the second series either.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: mariez on January 13, 2009, 08:31:38 pm

        I watched the mini series, and also read the book.  For those of you who have not done so.  Let me tell you.  The series is exactly like the book.
I had watched the series.  Then was compelled to read the book,(To get more detail)  but it had no more detail.  The conversations and everything
were the same.  I will say however, it has been a lot of years since I read it.  I have rewatched the series again however.  I loved it.
       The casting was perfect, and the whole feel of it was wonderful.  Maybe I should read the book again.?

        I never watched the second series either.

Janice, I agree that the mini-series is one of the best, and most faithful, screen adaptations I've seen.   And I think the book is so rich in wonderful detatils that it can be read over and over.

You know, I just thought of a non-literary BBM/LD connection.  Linda Cardellini (Cassie in BBM) played Clara in the Comanche Moon mini-series.  Comanche Moon is part of the LD series, and is the direct pre-quel to Lonesome Dove and the sequel to Dean Man's Walk, the book where Call and Gus first meet. 

Marie
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: retropian on January 13, 2009, 08:39:42 pm
I watched the series on DVD not too long after BBM came out. I remember L.M. talking about how he had wished he's written BBM and questioning himself as to why he didn't think of it 1st and he mentioned Gus and Woodrow. SO, I watched it, and like it too. One of the DVD extras was an interview with L.M. circa 1989 when the series was made. He talked about how in literature a story involving a pair of friends is almost invariably patterned after "Don Quixote". I posted on IMDB ages ago about this. His point was the pair exchange qualities or character traits by the end. Frequently one character is a "dreamer" and the other a "realist", but in the end the realist adopts the dream of his friend as his own. That interview really made me think of Jack and Ennis and what L.M and D.O. were thinking when writing the screenplay. Did Jack and Ennis exchange character traits? Did Jack become the realist at the lake scene and finally give up on his dream of the sweet life with Ennis? Did Ennis after the lake scene, after the scene with Cassie "girls don't fall in love with fun". become open to following that dream?
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: serious crayons on January 13, 2009, 08:46:41 pm
Hi A and everybody! I can't join the book club right now, unfortunately, because I have too much work-related Required Reading at the moment. But I wanted to tell A what a good idea this is. I saw the miniseries when it was on. I tried reading the book afterward, but experienced that unfortunate "saw it before I read it" syndrome and just wanted to skip ahead to the good parts, so I gave up (same thing happened to me with Sophie's Choice). Anyway, so I can't participate much, but I'd love to drop in now and then to see the discussion. Have fun!

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: southendmd on January 13, 2009, 08:47:56 pm
You, retropian, are a dream.  Thank you for that.  This theory applies, I think, to Kiss of the Spider Woman, where the two main characters complement each other, and, somehow, become each other.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 13, 2009, 09:32:40 pm
I watched the series on DVD not too long after BBM came out. I remember L.M. talking about how he had wished he's written BBM and questioning himself as to why he didn't think of it 1st and he mentioned Gus and Woodrow. SO, I watched it, and like it too. One of the DVD extras was an interview with L.M. circa 1989 when the series was made. He talked about how in literature a story involving a pair of friends is almost invariably patterned after "Don Quixote". I posted on IMDB ages ago about this. His point was the pair exchange qualities or character traits by the end. Frequently one character is a "dreamer" and the other a "realist", but in the end the realist adopts the dream of his friend as his own. That interview really made me think of Jack and Ennis and what L.M and D.O. were thinking when writing the screenplay. Did Jack and Ennis exchange character traits? Did Jack become the realist at the lake scene and finally give up on his dream of the sweet life with Ennis? Did Ennis after the lake scene, after the scene with Cassie "girls don't fall in love with fun". become open to following that dream?

You, retropian, are a dream.  Thank you for that.  This theory applies, I think, to Kiss of the Spider Woman, where the two main characters complement each other, and, somehow, become each other.


I would totally love to echo Paul's sentiment here.  Retropian!!!  What a wonderful observation about switching places by the end (at least to a certain extent)!!

This idea certainly fits in beautifully with the yin and yang metaphor that so frequently comes up with Ennis and Jack.  I like the idea that Jack and Ennis each have a touch of the other's personality traits within themselves all along.  But, I do truly like the idea that they both push each other to points where they may largely switch positions.

It does seem that Jack's loss of his dream-like optimism ("I did once") causes Ennis to panic enough to want to change and possibly to do something to fix the unbearable conditions of their relationship ("I can't stand this anymore..." combined with our knowledge that Ennis sends the last postcard). Of course, Jack's death itself seems to be a major catalyst for change for Ennis above and beyond any change that might have been happening as a result of the argument with Jack and Ennis's own realizations.  In either case, the tragedy is that the impetus to change came too late.  The Ennis that we see in the final scenes does seem quite different from the Ennis earlier in the film.  We talk about ways that Jack taught Ennis to express love or affection (the caress of the cheek... that Ennis later re-enacts with Jenny by caressing her cheek at Thanksgiving)... and Ennis's caution and more pragmatic outlook certainly had impacts on Jack as well.  So the activity of exchange can be seen occuring, perhaps, bit by bit throughout the film.

You know, I just thought of a non-literary BBM/LD connection.  Linda Cardellini (Cassie in BBM) played Clara in the Comanche Moon mini-series.  Comanche Moon is part of the LD series, and is the direct pre-quel to Lonesome Dove and the sequel to Dean Man's Walk, the book where Call and Gus first meet. 

Marie

Heya Marie!  Could you explain more about the series of books?  Should readers read these in a particular order?  How big is the full series?

Hi A and everybody! I can't join the book club right now, unfortunately, because I have too much work-related Required Reading at the moment. But I wanted to tell A what a good idea this is. I saw the miniseries when it was on. I tried reading the book afterward, but experienced that unfortunate "saw it before I read it" syndrome and just wanted to skip ahead to the good parts, so I gave up (same thing happened to me with Sophie's Choice). Anyway, so I can't participate much, but I'd love to drop in now and then to see the discussion. Have fun!

Thanks K!  I don't really think this will end up being a systematic book club.  Somehow I don't think we'll all start at page 1 together and discuss it in such a disciplined way.  Since I'm already half way through, I intend to just keep going.  And, I certainly hope others start reading it and join in.  But, I'd think this thread could be a place for people to come to make observations about LD and BBM whenever they feel like.  Since you've seen it and read part of it, I'm sure you can jump in here too if you feel like it.


Going forward we should probably mark posts as **Spoilers**  when we discuss plot elements of LD that other folks might not have encountered yet.  This seems like a good idea since people will be reading at different paces.






Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: retropian on January 13, 2009, 10:15:10 pm
Quote from: southendmd on Today at 07:47:56 PM
Quote
You, retropian, are a dream.  Thank you for that.  This theory applies, I think, to Kiss of the Spider Woman, where the two main characters complement each other, and, somehow, become each other.

I would totally love to echo Paul's sentiment here.  Retropian!!!  What a wonderful observation about switching places by the end (at least to a certain extent)!!

Aww. Thanks! You're all sweet.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 14, 2009, 12:09:28 am
I watched the series on DVD not too long after BBM came out. I remember L.M. talking about how he had wished he's written BBM and questioning himself as to why he didn't think of it 1st and he mentioned Gus and Woodrow. SO, I watched it, and like it too. One of the DVD extras was an interview with L.M. circa 1989 when the series was made. He talked about how in literature a story involving a pair of friends is almost invariably patterned after "Don Quixote". I posted on IMDB ages ago about this. His point was the pair exchange qualities or character traits by the end. Frequently one character is a "dreamer" and the other a "realist", but in the end the realist adopts the dream of his friend as his own. That interview really made me think of Jack and Ennis and what L.M and D.O. were thinking when writing the screenplay. Did Jack and Ennis exchange character traits? Did Jack become the realist at the lake scene and finally give up on his dream of the sweet life with Ennis? Did Ennis after the lake scene, after the scene with Cassie "girls don't fall in love with fun". become open to following that dream?

Where did you post that, may I ask? I haven't seen it and I would love to read about it! One thing I really love about the story is the way Ennis adopted Jack's attributes (Lying "spread eagled" on the bed) while Jack adopted Ennis' attributes {trembling like a run-out horse, sleeping on his feet like a horse} and I didn't know these were well-established literary traditions!
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 14, 2009, 12:15:59 am
I was just reading a little bit more of LD and had a really obvious thought... but, I think interesting nonetheless.  I think this observation is general-knowledge enough to not really warrant a spoiler warning.

Both BBM and LD, thematically, dwell a lot on the idea of moving between Texas and Wyoming/Montana.   

Of course, as far as I am in LD, I don't even know if they'll actually make it to Montana... but the idea is there.  In a general sense, both Jack and the cattle drive follow the same route.  And, I love that Lightning Flat is on the Montana border.


p.s. Lee, let us know when you start readin' Friend!  :D ;D



Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 14, 2009, 12:35:31 am
Okay, I'm about to start right now!!

And, you're definitely right about Lightning Flat!

Here's proof! In this picture, I'm standing right across the "street" from the "twist House"!!

(http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/6315280-4c5.JPG) (http://www.divshare.com/download/6315280-4c5)
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 14, 2009, 12:40:13 am
Okay, I'm about to start right now!!

And, you're definitely right about Lightning Flat!

Here's proof! In this picture, I'm standing right across the "street" from the "twist House"!!

(http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/6315280-4c5.JPG) (http://www.divshare.com/download/6315280-4c5)

 :D :D :D

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: retropian on January 14, 2009, 02:22:19 am
Where did you post that, may I ask? I haven't seen it and I would love to read about it! One thing I really love about the story is the way Ennis adopted Jack's attributes (Lying "spread eagled" on the bed) while Jack adopted Ennis' attributes {trembling like a run-out horse, sleeping on his feet like a horse} and I didn't know these were well-established literary traditions!

I watch the Lonesome Dove DVD in 2006 or 2007. One of the special features was an interview with Larry M. He and the interviewer discuss western literary tradition and specifically how virtually all novels about the relationship between friends are patterned after "Don Quixote". I posted about it on IMDB at the time because I thought it was very interesting given Larry M's connection to BBM.

And what do ya know! My original post on IMDB is archived here on Bettermost!

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,10759.msg209449/topicseen.html#msg209449 (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,10759.msg209449/topicseen.html#msg209449)
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: belbbmfan on January 14, 2009, 03:02:13 am
I watched the series on DVD not too long after BBM came out. I remember L.M. talking about how he had wished he's written BBM and questioning himself as to why he didn't think of it 1st and he mentioned Gus and Woodrow. SO, I watched it, and like it too. One of the DVD extras was an interview with L.M. circa 1989 when the series was made. He talked about how in literature a story involving a pair of friends is almost invariably patterned after "Don Quixote". I posted on IMDB ages ago about this. His point was the pair exchange qualities or character traits by the end. Frequently one character is a "dreamer" and the other a "realist", but in the end the realist adopts the dream of his friend as his own. That interview really made me think of Jack and Ennis and what L.M and D.O. were thinking when writing the screenplay. Did Jack and Ennis exchange character traits? Did Jack become the realist at the lake scene and finally give up on his dream of the sweet life with Ennis? Did Ennis after the lake scene, after the scene with Cassie "girls don't fall in love with fun". become open to following that dream?

Wow!

After three years, there's still so much to learn about the story and movie. Thanks retropian for that observation.

I'd like to think that Ennis was more open to following that dream after the final lake scene. The movie was certainly more optimistic about that with Ennis declaring 'I can't stand this anymore Jack' at their final meeting.


I'm going to have a look at the bookstore and see if I can find Lonesome Dove. If not, I'll order it on Amazon.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Penthesilea on January 14, 2009, 10:46:33 am
I watched the series on DVD not too long after BBM came out. I remember L.M. talking about how he had wished he's written BBM and questioning himself as to why he didn't think of it 1st and he mentioned Gus and Woodrow. SO, I watched it, and like it too. One of the DVD extras was an interview with L.M. circa 1989 when the series was made. He talked about how in literature a story involving a pair of friends is almost invariably patterned after "Don Quixote". I posted on IMDB ages ago about this. His point was the pair exchange qualities or character traits by the end. Frequently one character is a "dreamer" and the other a "realist", but in the end the realist adopts the dream of his friend as his own. That interview really made me think of Jack and Ennis and what L.M and D.O. were thinking when writing the screenplay. Did Jack and Ennis exchange character traits? Did Jack become the realist at the lake scene and finally give up on his dream of the sweet life with Ennis? Did Ennis after the lake scene, after the scene with Cassie "girls don't fall in love with fun". become open to following that dream?

Oh wow. I second what others have said about this post. It's excellent, retropian.

The concept is also knew to me, and it definitely fits Ennis and Jack (at least in parts). It also goes well with the yin-yang concept, as amanda already noticed.

I think a (tiny) bit of a dreamer has always been in Ennis: he wanted to be a sophomore because the thought the word carried a kind of distinction (that's sweet, isn't it? And being a foreign spekaer, I agree with him. The word was new to me and I also thought it sounds kind of elegant, or maybe noble); he was saving for his own spread, even if it was only 10 bucks in a tabacco can; he asked Jack "and what if we have to work again for Aguirre?" when the sheep were mixed, etc.


Will add more (about Jack) later. Gotta go now.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: southendmd on January 14, 2009, 10:59:00 am
Sophomore is a great word.  From the Greek "sophos" = wise, and "moros" =stupid.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Clyde-B on January 14, 2009, 11:01:10 am
I think the Don Quixote effect may be a reflection of real life.

I know that I am often attracted to people that have qualities that I feel I lack and would like to have myself.  In the process of getting to know them and being with them, I often learn how they do what I admire and pick up that learning for myself.  I assume that they do something similar.

It would seem that you would want to incorporate that facet of real relationships into fictional relationships as well.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 14, 2009, 11:04:19 am
I think the Don Quixote effect may be a reflection of real life.

I know that I am often attracted to people that have qualities that I feel I lack and would like to have myself.  In the process of getting to know them and being with them, I often learn how they do what I admire and pick up that learning for myself.  I assume that they do something similar.

It would seem that you would want to incorporate that facet of real relationships into fictional relationships as well.

I wonder (and guess) that deeply entrenched literary traditions probably are reflections of aspects of real life.  So, I agree with your observation here.  If so many authors over so many generations and different cultures gravitate to a concept, there's probably some core of "truth" to it.

I always get excited to learn about ways and think about ways that BBM fits into wider literary and film traditions.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: mariez on January 14, 2009, 01:44:20 pm
Heya Marie!  Could you explain more about the series of books?  Should readers read these in a particular order?  How big is the full series?

Hi Amanda!  They were not written in chronological order, and I knew Lonesome Dove was written first - but I confirmed the specifics at Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonesome_Dove_series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonesome_Dove_series)

The Lonesome Dove Series is a series of four books written by Larry McMurtry. The order in which the books were written is:

Lonesome Dove (1985)
Streets of Laredo (1993)
Dead Man's Walk (1995)
Comanche Moon (1997)

However, the chronological order of the story is:

Dead Man's Walk
Comanche Moon
Lonesome Dove
Streets of Laredo

This series, which has also been adapted into several made-for-television movies, follows the exploits of several members of the Texas Ranger Division, from the time of the Republic of Texas up until the beginning of the twentieth century.

Recurring characters include Augustus "Gus" McCrae, Woodrow F. Call, Joshua Deets, Pea Eye Parker, Jake Spoon, Clara Forsythe Allen, Maggie Tilton, Lorena Wood Parker, Blue Duck, and Buffalo Hump
.



Amanda, I would stick with reading Lonesome Dove first.  After that, it might help to go back to Dead Man's Walk and Comanche Moon before tackling Streets of Laredo, which is very grim. 


I watched the series on DVD not too long after BBM came out. I remember L.M. talking about how he had wished he's written BBM and questioning himself as to why he didn't think of it 1st and he mentioned Gus and Woodrow. SO, I watched it, and like it too. One of the DVD extras was an interview with L.M. circa 1989 when the series was made. He talked about how in literature a story involving a pair of friends is almost invariably patterned after "Don Quixote". I posted on IMDB ages ago about this. His point was the pair exchange qualities or character traits by the end. Frequently one character is a "dreamer" and the other a "realist", but in the end the realist adopts the dream of his friend as his own......

Let me add my thanks for this, retropian!  I had the same thoughts about pairs of friends, and I really like the Don Quixote referenc.  I do agree that it's a reflection of real life.

Marie

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 14, 2009, 04:04:13 pm
Hi Amanda!  They were not written in chronological order, and I knew Lonesome Dove was written first - but I confirmed the specifics at Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonesome_Dove_series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonesome_Dove_series)

The Lonesome Dove Series is a series of four books written by Larry McMurtry. The order in which the books were written is:

Lonesome Dove (1985)
Streets of Laredo (1993)
Dead Man's Walk (1995)
Comanche Moon (1997)

However, the chronological order of the story is:

Dead Man's Walk
Comanche Moon
Lonesome Dove
Streets of Laredo

This series, which has also been adapted into several made-for-television movies, follows the exploits of several members of the Texas Ranger Division, from the time of the Republic of Texas up until the beginning of the twentieth century.

Recurring characters include Augustus "Gus" McCrae, Woodrow F. Call, Joshua Deets, Pea Eye Parker, Jake Spoon, Clara Forsythe Allen, Maggie Tilton, Lorena Wood Parker, Blue Duck, and Buffalo Hump
.



Amanda, I would stick with reading Lonesome Dove first.  After that, it might help to go back to Dead Man's Walk and Comanche Moon before tackling Streets of Laredo, which is very grim. 



Thanks Marie!  I'm glad for the recommendation about reading Dead Man's Walk next when I decide to continue reading the series. :)

In a way, it reminds me of the Chronicles of Narnia, which were written/published originally out of the chronological order of the narrative.  And, in that case I like reading the Chronicles out of chronological order and piecing things together... in the way that Lewis wrote them.  Or... at least I know there's a literary controversy about the correct reading order.







Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Ellemeno on January 15, 2009, 12:37:47 am
Hey!  I'm happy to see this thread.  I LOVED reading Lonesome Dove about ten or so years ago.  And also thought the mini-series, which I rented from Netflix after reading the book, was really good - excellent cast.  I've thought many times that Gus and Woodrow prove that Ennis and Jack could have had that cow n calf operation, if they were discreet.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 15, 2009, 12:51:15 am
Hey!  I'm happy to see this thread.  I LOVED reading Lonesome Dove about ten or so years ago.  And also thought the mini-series, which I rented from Netflix after reading the book, was really good - excellent cast.  I've thought many times that Gus and Woodrow prove that Ennis and Jack could have had that cow n calf operation, if they were discreet.



Elle, I have such happy memories of buying my copy of Lonesome Dove in Seattle with you and Lynne (was Roux in town yet when we stopped at that bookstore?)!!  Everytime that I look at my copy or read it, I have multi-layered happy Brokie feelings, ideas and memories.

:)

Have you read the other books in the series?

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Ellemeno on January 15, 2009, 01:10:09 am
Elle, I have such happy memories of buying my copy of Lonesome Dove in Seattle with you and Lynne (was Roux in town yet when we stopped at that bookstore?)!!  Everytime that I look at my copy or read it, I have multi-layered happy Brokie feelings, ideas and memories.

:)

Have you read the other books in the series?



Oh yeah!  I had forgotten that.  That's nice little bookstore in Fremont.  Roux had arrived in town by that point, but wasn't with us yet.  What a great weekend.  :-*

Thanks for starting this thread, Amanda.  I also want to say that for me, Chris Cooper playing July Johnson also feels like a BBM connection, even though empirically, it's pretty tangential.  I guess I meld him from Jake's father in October Sky, to the guy who wants to kiss Kevin Spacey so badly in American Beauty to ..what?  Something else I'm blanking on, I think.


Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Ellemeno on January 15, 2009, 01:14:30 am
Oh yeah, a quick glance at IMDb about Chris Cooper and his BBMness - The Patriot, Jarhead, Capote (grr) ;), Lone Star (which has no BBM connection, except to me - I see them as so similar, so connected as films and as love stories), and his general connection to John Sayles, who makes great movies.


Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 16, 2009, 10:49:48 pm

Heya,

So the other night I marked a little sentence in LD that reminded me of of a sentence in the screenplay of BBM that many of us have noted and have even incorporated into our lexicon of major Brokieisms.  It doesn't really have to do with the meanings of the sentences, but the odd grammar and syntax.

Nothing here really constitutes much of a spoiler...

There's a part in LD where a character discovers he's being followed by someone and he asks... "How come you to follow?"  This made me think of Ennis's odd sentence as written in the screenplay "That's how come me to end up here."  I know that in the actual film Ennis says "That's how come me end up here."  But, in the published screenplay the sentence is the slightly longer "That's how come me to end up here."

I don't know what McMurtry is trying to indicate about dialect or whether in the case of Ennis he and Ossana are try to display an fairly obscure humor in Ennis's sensibility... sine the odd placement of "me" in Ennis's sentence may refer back (in a seemingly witty way) to the previous sentence in his conversation... "No more room for me."

Anyway, the contexts are clearly greatly different.  The odd sense of grammar just struck me as reminiscent for whatever reason. The LD character is a southern man in the late 19th century and Ennis obviously is a late 20th century Wyoming boy.    But, again, that little sentence in LD stuck out like a sore thumb to me.



Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: belbbmfan on January 19, 2009, 02:55:44 am
I just ordered my copy of Lonesome Dove. It was a bargain, only 8 $!

I'm looking forward to reading.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 19, 2009, 02:16:41 pm
I just ordered my copy of Lonesome Dove. It was a bargain, only 8 $!

I'm looking forward to reading.

Yeehaw!  Let us know when it arrives.  :)

I'm still reading away!  I'm really fascinated by the treatment of the female characters.  I can't even imagine life in that kind of environment and society as a woman... it's really quite depressing to think about on many levels.  But, McMurtry treats this subject, at least so far, with a good sense of complexity and subtlty.  In interviews, he talked about feeling an affinity for the female characters in BBM, and in the case of LD he seems to have an interesting sensitivity to the plight of the female characters too.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 19, 2009, 02:25:37 pm
One of McMurtry's later works, Telegraph Days, has a young woman as the main character and can be a refreshing experience after reading about the many tragic female roles. It's kind of a comedy as well.

Yes, LM's female characters are legendary as we saw with Terms of Endearment. His females are sometimes just as complex and well developed as Annie Proulx's male characters. Think of what they could produce if they collaborated!! Oh, yes, they already did...on Brokeback Mountain!!!!!

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: mariez on January 19, 2009, 02:47:34 pm
I just ordered my copy of Lonesome Dove. It was a bargain, only 8 $!

I'm looking forward to reading.

And I look forward to hearing your thoughts, Fabienne!  I had an extra busy weekend and didn't do as much re-reading of LD as I wanted, but hopefully I'll get some time tonight.

..In interviews, he talked about feeling an affinity for the female characters in BBM, and in the case of LD he seems to have an interesting sensitivity to the plight of the female characters too.

Yes, strong female characters are a hallmark of McMurtry's writing. 

One of McMurtry's later works, Telegraph Days, has a young woman as the main character and can be a refreshing experience after reading about the many tragic female roles. It's kind of a comedy as well.

I enjoyed Telegraph Days -  refreshing is a good word.  McMurtry did a great job getting into the mind of his main character. 

Marie
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 23, 2009, 10:13:25 pm
Holy moly!  I was up to almost 2:30 am last night totally hooked on LD.  I'm at about page 500 and am at quite the page-turning moment.  I just finished reading about Gus, Lorena and the whole horrible episode with Blue Duck and his gang.  Yikes!  Talk about drama.

 
Leading up to the climax of that episode, I came across a specific passage that seemed very, very evocative of BBM to me.   In this case, it's evocative of something that's only in the short story, not the film of BBM.

The sentences I came across in LD (no need for spoiler warning in this case I don't think) are about the eradication of so many buffaloes on the plains due to wasteful over-hunting. 

"The thought gave the very emptiness of the plains a different feel. With those millions of animals gone, and the Indians mostly gone in their wake, the great plains were truly empty, unpeopled and ungrazed."

There's other language surrounding this observation, that has a ring to it that reminds me of Proulx's line, "The huge sadness of the northern plains rolled down on him."

The language is obviously not exactly equivalent and the contexts, etc. are hugely different, but still interestingly evocative to me.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: mariez on January 23, 2009, 11:04:02 pm
Hey Amanda,

I'm glad to hear you're enjoying LD so much - it really is hard to put down once you start.  I think your observations about those passages are really astute.   It seems to me that both McMurtry and Proulx have a real respect and a real "feel" for the land.  So much so that they treat it not simply as background, but as another character.  I noticed some more passages (again around the time Gus is tracking Blue Duck) in LD that had the same tone to them:

"It struck him that he had forgotten emptiness such as existed in the country that stretched around him." ......

"But here there was no sound, not any.  The coyotes were silent, the crickets, the locusts, the owls.  There was only the sound of his own horse grazing.  From him to the stars, in all directions, there was only silence and emptiness."

Yes, very evocative. 

Marie
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 24, 2009, 02:01:13 am
This reminds me of the time when a friend and I were lying on some rocks just enjoying the sunshine in the desert of New Mexico. A bird flew by above us and I could clearly hear the rush of the wind under its wings. Now, that's quiet!!

I've been reading about 1/2 page a day and enjoying the banter between Call, Gus, Pea Eye, Newt, et al, but I'm nowhere near others. At this rate, I will finish the book sometime in 2010!!
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 24, 2009, 05:53:23 pm
This reminds me of the time when a friend and I were lying on some rocks just enjoying the sunshine in the desert of New Mexico. A bird flew by above us and I could clearly hear the rush of the wind under its wings. Now, that's quiet!!

I remember a similar kind of sort-of shocking quiet at certain moments when we would get out of the car on our drive through Wyoming last summer.

The thing that's interesting about both Proulx and McMurtry in their evocation of the largeness and the emptiness of plain-type landscape is that these observations go along with different forms of sadness and melancholy.  There's a sense of peace, but also a sense of loss (Jack in the case of BBM, and the buffalo herds and Indian population in LD).

Quote
I've been reading about 1/2 page a day and enjoying the banter between Call, Gus, Pea Eye, Newt, et al, but I'm nowhere near others. At this rate, I will finish the book sometime in 2010!!

LOL!  Stick with it Bud!  There are moments that become real page-turning moments as you go along, so I suspect your daily page-count will increase the more you get into it.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 26, 2009, 11:48:54 am

Whenever I read about the character Jake Spoon, I can't help but think of Jake G. and Reese... or "Gyllenspoon".   ::) :laugh: 

It's not the greatest association to draw with Jake and Reese since, at least IMO, Jake Spoon is a very annoying character.  But, the name Jake Spoon always kind of cracks me up when I read it.  Lately I've been reading a section that focuses a lot on Spoon.  Sometimes I want to reach into the pages of the book and just shake Jake Spoon.

LOL, but the more I think about it... if I was casting a new film version of LD, I could imagine Jake Gyllenhaal playing the role of Jake Spoon very well.  He has the right look to me... or at least I imagine Jake Spoon to be very good looking, with big eyes that attract a lot of women, etc.  And, of course, now I could easily imagine Jake Gyllenhaal playing a cowboy.  Obviously.





Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 28, 2009, 12:47:18 am
Reading more tonight... It occurs to me that Jake G. could probably also play July Johnson pretty well.  I think the other thread here in OF about who we would cast in a sequel/remake of BBM has gone to my head regarding LD too. :)
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 05, 2009, 03:46:18 pm
I just ordered my copy of Lonesome Dove. It was a bargain, only 8 $!

I'm looking forward to reading.

Heya Fabienne!  Has your copy come yet?  I'll probably finish reading mine this weekend! 8)

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Monika on February 05, 2009, 03:52:32 pm
Good thread!

I remember watching the mini-series years ago and really loved it. The friendship between the two main characters was different from anything I previously had seen in the western genre. I´d like to read the book too at some point.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: belbbmfan on February 05, 2009, 04:02:07 pm
Heya Fabienne!  Has your copy come yet?  I'll probably finish reading mine this weekend! 8)



Hey Amanda, yes it has. And I have to say I didn't know it was going to be 945 pages!  :o I haven't started reading it. I feel a bit guilty about starting a new book before I've finished the one I'm currently reading ('Atonement' by Ian McEwan). But I might dive in anyway. It's your description of this book being a page turner that intrigues me. I love getting all caught up in a story, Atonement, though also very good, isn't that sort of book.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on February 05, 2009, 04:59:03 pm
I am enjoying Lonesome Dove more and more. Now that Jake Spoon has arrived on the scene, it's getting really interesting!
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 05, 2009, 05:37:02 pm
Hey Amanda, yes it has. And I have to say I didn't know it was going to be 945 pages!  :o I haven't started reading it. I feel a bit guilty about starting a new book before I've finished the one I'm currently reading ('Atonement' by Ian McEwan). But I might dive in anyway. It's your description of this book being a page turner that intrigues me. I love getting all caught up in a story, Atonement, though also very good, isn't that sort of book.


I am enjoying Lonesome Dove more and more. Now that Jake Spoon has arrived on the scene, it's getting really interesting!

 ;D
Yep, the drama comes in waves... and sometimes the drama gets surprisingly intense.

I'm at a phase towards the end now where it's almost impossible to put it down.  I was up until 1:00 am (on a work night!) trying to find a place to put it down for the night.

So, I was intimidated by the long length of it at first too... I'd put if off for so long because of the length... but it really does go fast once you get further into the book.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: fritzkep on February 05, 2009, 10:14:38 pm
Saw the miniseries first back when it premiered in 1989, then when I visited a friend in Oregon in 1993 he gave me a copy of the book, which I read avidly as soon as I got back home. Wonderful film, fantastic book! Completely enjoyed them both.

As a result of the series and book, I visited the site of the Battle of Adobe Walls in the Texas panhandle back in 2003. The series references the second battle, and Gus shooting an attacker at long range is based on an incident during this battle.

Cf. Billy Dixon in this article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Adobe_Walls

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 07, 2009, 07:18:12 pm

(http://bestsmileys.com/dancing/12.gif)

Yeehaw!!!  I'm here to report that I finished reading Lonesome Dove this afternoon!  And, I thoroughly enjoyed the whole thing.

Throughout the book I noticed so many little details that remind me of BBM that I pretty much stopped keeping track.  Some things reminded me of the movie/screenplay and other things reminded me of the story more than the movie.  I don't know what all of Proulx's literary sources of inspiration were, I'm sure there were many, many things that she looked to when writing BBM, but I wouldn't be surprised if LD was amongst them.  Phrases like "let be" and "I swear..." appear more than once in LD and the "I swear..." takes on a pretty inportant significance in LD, though maybe not as much as in BBM (or at least not as highlighted as in BBM).  And, there are funny specific phrases like "the pelts be damned" in LD (a quick reference made in a conversation about hunting beavers) that of course remind immediately of BBM. 

And, then there are major themes that seems so important in both LD and BBM (possible minor **spoilers** ahead).  It's very striking to me that Call starts dreaming about Gus after he dies, and even seems to hallucinate about him a bit while awake.  The whole concept of returning the remains of a partner/loved-one's to a significant place seems to be another common theme.  The intensity of the relationship between Call and Gus and an awareness of that intensity is much more foregrounded at the end.  In the conversation between Clara and Call, I was really struck by her statement that one of the many reasons she never married Gus was because she thought she'd always be in competition for Gus with Call.  Specifically, she says to Call, "Another reason I didn't marry him was because I didn't want to fight you for him every day of my life."  And, in very general terms, I still think the theme of long travel from south to north and north to south is interesting in both BBM and LD.  The contrast of how that travel is achieved and what it means in each story seems pretty significant.

I thought the increased pace of the writing towards the end of LD was kind of interesting.  It almost felt like McMurtry might have really been working to wrap things up quickly, compared to other passages through the center of the novel that seemed much more leisurely.

Someday I'll read the other books in the series.  I'm particularly curious to read about the early days of the partnership between Gus and Call.  Gus is such a great character, it was very sad to see him die in LD.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: mariez on February 08, 2009, 12:06:00 pm
(http://bestsmileys.com/dancing/12.gif)

Yeehaw!!!  I'm here to report that I finished reading Lonesome Dove this afternoon!  And, I thoroughly enjoyed the whole thing.

Throughout the book I noticed so many little details that remind me of BBM that I pretty much stopped keeping track.  Some things reminded me of the movie/screenplay and other things reminded me of the story more than the movie.  I don't know what all of Proulx's literary sources of inspiration were, I'm sure there were many, many things that she looked to when writing BBM, but I wouldn't be surprised if LD was amongst them.  Phrases like "let be" and "I swear..." appear more than once in LD and the "I swear..." takes on a pretty inportant significance in LD, though maybe not as much as in BBM (or at least not as highlighted as in BBM).  And, there are funny specific phrases like "the pelts be damned" in LD (a quick reference made in a conversation about hunting beavers) that of course remind immediately of BBM. 

And, then there are major themes that seems so important in both LD and BBM (possible minor **spoilers** ahead).  It's very striking to me that Call starts dreaming about Gus after he dies, and even seems to hallucinate about him a bit while awake.  The whole concept of returning the remains of a partner/loved-one's to a significant place seems to be another common theme.  The intensity of the relationship between Call and Gus and an awareness of that intensity is much more foregrounded at the end.  In the conversation between Clara and Call, I was really struck by her statement that one of the many reasons she never married Gus was because she thought she'd always be in competition for Gus with Call.  Specifically, she says to Call, "Another reason I didn't marry him was because I didn't want to fight you for him every day of my life."  And, in very general terms, I still think the theme of long travel from south to north and north to south is interesting in both BBM and LD.  The contrast of how that travel is achieved and what it means in each story seems pretty significant.

I thought the increased pace of the writing towards the end of LD was kind of interesting.  It almost felt like McMurtry might have really been working to wrap things up quickly, compared to other passages through the center of the novel that seemed much more leisurely.

Someday I'll read the other books in the series.  I'm particularly curious to read about the early days of the partnership between Gus and Call.  Gus is such a great character, it was very sad to see him die in LD.

Wow.  What an awesome summation.  You really hit upon the key points.  I do think that both McMurtry and Proulx have a true understanding of "the West" and that a lot of the similiarities in the phrasing, etc., spring from that. 

SPOILERS







To me, Call and Gus (like Jack and Ennis) are true soulmates - and I don't think two people have to have a romantic or sexual relationship to achieve that.  I think Clara was right - any third person wanting a real piece of Gus or Call's heart would have been an intrusion.  If you get a chance to see the mini-series, you'll see that Robert Duvall and Tommy Lee Jones do an amazing job of conveying this throughout (especially in Gus's deathbed scene  :'( ). 

I've heard other people mention the quicker pace near the end.  I'm not sure if McMurtry was trying to wrap things up, or if he was trying to convey the sense of urgency ("time flying" maybe?) .

Augustus McCrae (along with Ennis del Mar) is definitely one of my favorite literary characters of all time.  Thanks again for starting this thread!   :)

Marie
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 08, 2009, 03:23:21 pm
SPOILERS


I've heard other people mention the quicker pace near the end.  I'm not sure if McMurtry was trying to wrap things up, or if he was trying to convey the sense of urgency ("time flying" maybe?) .

Thanks Marie! :)  I can see good arguments for both arguments about the pace at the end.  Since McMurtry spent hundreds of pages describing the drive north, maybe he just didn't feel the need to re-iterate some of the details and descriptions of Call's return to Texas, which happens in less than a hundred pages.  And, it seems to me that if he spent the same amount of time describing the trip south, he'd have had to split the book into two volumes.  From a narrative point of view, I agree that the increased pace conveys the sense of urgency... and also maybe the trip south was literally a bit faster since Call was traveling on his own and not worrying about a cumbersome, huge herd of cattle and horses. 

I'm glad we found out about what happened to Blue Duck.  At a certain point during the book I'd come to expect that he would just remain an unsolved mystery.  The two characters who I remain the most curious about are Lorena and Newt. I love Lorena and really hope that Gus's death doesn't ruin her.  Throughout her relationship with him I really wondered if she was really in love with him in a conventional sense, or rather, whether she had sort of imprinted on him or become obsessed with him out of a sense of self-preservation and survival (since he was the one who rescued her).  I love that Lorena found a home with Clara and I think the fact that Betsy bonded so much with her is adorable.  I think Lorena is such a tragic character... the fact that she can't even read Gus's note due to her illiteracy is so sad.  And, the little passage earlier in the book where McMurtry describes her memories of being a child with her loving grandmother just makes my heart bleed... thinking about how difficult her life ended up being as an adult.  And, I think Newt is also a great character... I'd be very curious to hear more about how he handles his new responsibilities in Montana.




Quote
Augustus McCrae (along with Ennis del Mar) is definitely one of my favorite literary characters of all time. 

Yes, I of course, would agree that they're both brilliant literary characters.  In LD, I find Gus so much more interesting, or likable, than Call (but I do like Call too... just not in the same way).  But in terms of types of characters... Call seems like a 19th century version of Ennis... a loaner, brooding, compelled all the time by a sense of duty and work, surpressing emotions, denying his love for Maggie, unable to deal with his emotions about Newt, etc.  And, as the gregarious, talkative, sometimes-goofy character, I see Gus as the Jack-type character.  Also the fact that Gus is the one who dies and leaves a very specific request about what to do with his remains in relation to a sentimental place... which becomes a task for Call... provides an interesting parallel between Jack and Ennis too, IMO.


Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 16, 2009, 05:32:30 pm


Heya are folks still making progress on reading Lonesome Dove?  I'd be really curious to hear your reactions and impressions of it!
:)

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on February 16, 2009, 07:42:02 pm
I'm enjoying the interesting part about young Newt's first foray into Mexico with the others.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on February 17, 2009, 10:06:14 am


     I agree a great deal about how much alike that Call and Ennis are.  They are the ones that feel the need to stick to convention.  "Do the right thing."
He was so suppressed in his conventional wisdom, that he couldnt even show or much less tell his own son that he loved him.  He had to go out of
his personal way, to show his need to take care of the boy.  He respected him as a young man, and in his own way, I am sure he loved him.  But to
have said it, would have shown weakness.  To have been in love with a whore.  Not a fine upstanding woman of the community.  He had so many 
moral issues over his head, that he couldn't admit that he was imperfect.  He did love Gus though with every fibre of his being.  Not in a sexual way,
but in the way that binds souls together.  Gus forced Call to take him back to his "place," for burial.  Knowing that he would need a time of solitude,
and reflection in order to grieve.  He could never have done that, in front of all of his men.  It would have seemed to have made him appear weak.  That
was the one thing he would not allow himself to be.  It was a very quick ending, I think because of the disrepair that the body and the box were getting.
The cart was falling apart, and so with all the mishaps did the rest of the cargo.  It had to be rushed in order for him to make it there with any part of
it still intact.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 17, 2009, 10:09:35 am
**Spoilers**


  He did love Gus though with every fibre of his being.  Not in a sexual way,
but in the way that binds souls together.  Gus forced Call to take him back to his "place," for burial.  Knowing that he would need a time of solitude,
and reflection in order to grieve.  He could never have done that, in front of all of his men.

Thanks for the great observations Janice!  I agree that there was a strong platonic love between Call and Gus.  And, I love what you say about Gus very deliberately giving Call the long mission to go back to Texas alone in order to give him a lot of time alone.  It's interesting to think it may not have all been sentimental whim on Gus's part... and that his deathbead wish had as much to do with taking care of Call (to a certain extent) as it did with his memories of Clara.



Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 20, 2009, 08:22:12 pm

 :D :D :D
My Lonesome Dove DVDs came today!!  Wow, Amazon was speedy with this part of my order.  I also ordered Dead Man's Walk, Comanche Moon and the film studies book that has a BBM pic on the cover (and apparently all those items are still on their way).

So, anyway, I'm excited to start watching LD!  I'll probably start watching it tonight. :)


Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on February 22, 2009, 12:25:16 pm
Great to hear friend! In my reading of LD, the big roundup of horses in Mexico is done. It was beautifully told. I especially love the dialogue. Excellent character development too, with the characters of Dish and Deet portrayed in "eloquent confusion."
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: mariez on February 22, 2009, 12:49:20 pm
:D :D :D
My Lonesome Dove DVDs came today!!  Wow, Amazon was speedy with this part of my order.  I also ordered Dead Man's Walk, Comanche Moon and the film studies book that has a BBM pic on the cover (and apparently all those items are still on their way).

So, anyway, I'm excited to start watching LD!  I'll probably start watching it tonight. :)


I'm excited for you, Amanda!  Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the mini-series.  I haven't seen it in a while, but I remember it was long!  :)

Marie
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on February 22, 2009, 03:12:14 pm




    Lonesome Dove and Roots, have always been my favorite miniseries.  After having watched the series, that induced
me to read the books, in both cases. 
    I once met Alex Haley, in an elevator in downtown Los Angeles, when I was going to a doctors appointment.  He was
very cordial, but also somewhat introverted.  It was right after the series had been shown.  Maybe he had succumbed to
the "too much attention" syndrome that Heath seemed to have gotten later in his career.  What a shame that fame
has to intimidate some people so directly.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 22, 2009, 03:19:09 pm
Glad you're still enjoying it Lee! :)

And, Janice, your post came in as I was composing this. :)


*spoilers*

I'm excited for you, Amanda!  Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the mini-series.  I haven't seen it in a while, but I remember it was long!  :)

Marie

Hi Marie,
I've watched the first installment so far... the part called "Leaving."  And, there are many things I like about it.  I think the setting for the town of Lonesome Dove and the Hat Creek establishment is perfect... exactly how I imagined it.  I also think Robert Duvall and Tommy Lee Jones are great as Gus and Call.  Those two, along with Diane Lane as Lorena, seem like great casting.  I still don't exactly know how I feel about Ricky Schroder as Newt... in this case he seems "fresh-faced" and innocent so that it works to a certain extent.  Jake Spoon is visualized and played very differently from how I pictured him actually... when reading the book, I pictured Jake as being much more "dapper"... or at least I pictured him attempting to be more dapper.  

I'm quite enjoying it so far, and I agree that it seems very faithful to the book.  My one criticism is that it seems a little dated in terms of a production, especially in when it comes to special effects.  To me, that aspect was pretty distracting actually.

I was also surprised at how quickly the moved through the whole Mexico episode in this early installment.  The other thing that this production doesn't seem to do an equivalent job with as the book... is the depiction of the activity of herding the cattle and horses.  McMurtry's written descriptions of the darkness, drama, scariness, etc. of herding the cattle at night and in storms, etc., seemed much more dramatic than the way it appears in the mini-series.  It's so great to experience those dramatic moments of herding and all the details (like the dust, etc.) through the naive perspective of Newt... so we learn about the customs, unexpected elements and circumstances of herding along with Newt.



Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 24, 2009, 08:35:07 pm

I'm just here again to report that I received my copies of Dead Man's Walk and Comanche Moon today in the mail.

LOL, I wonder if it's frustrating for Larry McMurtry to write something as concise as a screenplay.  It seems clear that he feels very much at home as a writer producing very lengthy works.  My new copy of DMW is 518 pages and CM is 716.
 ;D


I also watched the second installment of Lonesome Dove last night.  And, I have to say, Tommy Lee Jones and Robert Duvall really are wonderful in these roles.  And, Gus as a character is just fantastic.
:)



Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: mariez on February 24, 2009, 09:26:43 pm
Glad you're still enjoying it Lee! :)

And, Janice, your post came in as I was composing this. :)


*spoilers*

Hi Marie,
I've watched the first installment so far... the part called "Leaving."  And, there are many things I like about it.  I think the setting for the town of Lonesome Dove and the Hat Creek establishment is perfect... exactly how I imagined it.  I also think Robert Duvall and Tommy Lee Jones are great as Gus and Call.  Those two, along with Diane Lane as Lorena, seem like great casting.  I still don't exactly know how I feel about Ricky Schroder as Newt... in this case he seems "fresh-faced" and innocent so that it works to a certain extent.  Jake Spoon is visualized and played very differently from how I pictured him actually... when reading the book, I pictured Jake as being much more "dapper"... or at least I pictured him attempting to be more dapper.  

I'm quite enjoying it so far, and I agree that it seems very faithful to the book.  My one criticism is that it seems a little dated in terms of a production, especially in when it comes to special effects.  To me, that aspect was pretty distracting actually.

I was also surprised at how quickly the moved through the whole Mexico episode in this early installment.  The other thing that this production doesn't seem to do an equivalent job with as the book... is the depiction of the activity of herding the cattle and horses.  McMurtry's written descriptions of the darkness, drama, scariness, etc. of herding the cattle at night and in storms, etc., seemed much more dramatic than the way it appears in the mini-series.  It's so great to experience those dramatic moments of herding and all the details (like the dust, etc.) through the naive perspective of Newt... so we learn about the customs, unexpected elements and circumstances of herding along with Newt.

Hey Amanda,

I'm glad you're enjoying it.  It's been a few years since I've watched it - I'll have to do so again soon - but, yes, I imagine it would seem a bit dated in terms of production value.  I think it was produced in the late 80's?  Generally speaking, I'm never quite satisfied when novels are turned into movies b/c certain elements are never captured exactly the way I've pictured them in my mind, but generally speaking I remember being pleasantly surprised and satisfied with most of the LD mini-series. 

I couldn't agree more about the casting of Jones and Duvall as Call and Gus.  They are pitch perfect, imo.  And, yeah, Gus is an unforgettable character!  Both of them stayed with me for a long time after I read the book and watched the movie, but I admit that Gus holds a special place in my heart.  Enjoy the rest!  :)

Marie
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: belbbmfan on February 28, 2009, 04:07:55 pm
We're back from a week skiing in the French Alps. I had taken Lonesome Dove with me and boy, what can I say? I couldn't ski for a couple of days because I had blisters on my feet, but I have to honest, I didn't regret it once I started reading. What a great book this is! I'm at page 435 right now, Gus has just gotten Lorie back. OMG, how terrible I felt reading what happened to her, poor woman.

I love the characters, and the often humorous way in which they are described. The dry humour is great. The writing is fantastic, very atmospheric, I can see it all happening in my head (including the really bad stuff  :-\).

It's extremely difficult to put down, I can't wait to finish it.

Thanks so much for the recommendation Amanda.  :-*
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 28, 2009, 04:15:58 pm
We're back from a week skiing in the French Alps. I had taken Lonesome Dove with me and boy, what can I say? I couldn't ski for a couple of days because I had blisters on my feet, but I have to honest, I didn't regret it once I started reading. What a great book this is! I'm at page 435 right now, Gus has just gotten Lorie back. OMG, how terrible I felt reading what happened to her, poor woman.

I love the characters, and the often humorous way in which they are described. The dry humour is great. The writing is fantastic, very atmospheric, I can see it all happening in my head (including the really bad stuff  :-\).

It's extremely difficult to put down, I can't wait to finish it.

Thanks so much for the recommendation Amanda.  :-*

 :D :D :D
Welcome back from your ski trip Friend!  Wow, the French Alps sound exciting... even though I don't ski, I'd love to see the Alps some day.  I hope you had a good time.

**possible spoilers in comments that follow**

And, I'm so glad you're enjoying the book!  Yes, I found it hard to put down too.  You're right that Lorena's situation really is so upsetting and brutal.  McMurtry describes her kidnapping with such realism.  And, Gus is so great and so sensitive towards her following the rescue.  I really like Lorena as a character, I feel so sorry for her on so many levels (and not just about the kidnapping, but also about her daily/normal circumstances)... a really great tragic character, and very much brutalized by her environment/circumstances for so long. 

Gus and Call are so amazingly different when it comes to women.  I find it a particularly distressing aspect of Call's character that he doesn't call women by their names, or is reluctant to do so.  I think it has a lot to do with Call's own fears, but it's very strange.  Gus, on the other hand, seems to have a true sympathy for the women he knows.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Penthesilea on March 01, 2009, 07:15:06 am
We're back from a week skiing in the French Alps. I had taken Lonesome Dove with me and boy, what can I say? I couldn't ski for a couple of days because I had blisters on my feet, but I have to honest, I didn't regret it once I started reading. What a great book this is! I'm at page 435 right now, Gus has just gotten Lorie back. OMG, how terrible I felt reading what happened to her, poor woman.

I love the characters, and the often humorous way in which they are described. The dry humour is great. The writing is fantastic, very atmospheric, I can see it all happening in my head (including the really bad stuff  :-\).

It's extremely difficult to put down, I can't wait to finish it.

Thanks so much for the recommendation Amanda.  :-*


OK, this seals it.
At first, I didn't have any intention to read the book. But the more people were raving about it, the more interested I got. Your rec sealed it for me Fabienne.

And welcome back! :-*
I missed ya. I didn't know where in the hell you was  ;D.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: belbbmfan on March 01, 2009, 02:26:58 pm
(((chrissie)))   :-*

What can I say? Read girl, read!!  :)  ;D

I love getting all caught up in a book like this. The characters really stay with you. I'm planning to read a big chunk again this evening.

And to think that I was daunted by the fact that it's 900+ pages. Now, I'm at the stage where I almost regret being half way through. My husband is curious too. I sometimes burst out laughing reading and it intrigues him. I'm sure he's going to love reading it too.

And I'm not to bothered by the fact that I should really look up certain words in the dictionary. I mostly get the gist of the sentence anyway. It really is a 'storyteller's book' if you know what I mean. I struggled more with Annie Proulx' style of writing (which is more impenetrable to a non English native, I think).

And for the holiday, we had a great time Chrissi. It was relaxing, we even took a walk with snow shoes, something I had never done before. It was great fun, very strenuous, but the silence in the mountains when there's just a few people about is amazing.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Penthesilea on March 02, 2009, 12:30:43 pm
(((chrissie)))   :-*

What can I say? Read girl, read!!  :)  ;D

I love getting all caught up in a book like this. The characters really stay with you. I'm planning to read a big chunk again this evening.

And to think that I was daunted by the fact that it's 900+ pages. Now, I'm at the stage where I almost regret being half way through. My husband is curious too. I sometimes burst out laughing reading and it intrigues him. I'm sure he's going to love reading it too.

And I'm not to bothered by the fact that I should really look up certain words in the dictionary. I mostly get the gist of the sentence anyway. It really is a 'storyteller's book' if you know what I mean. I struggled more with Annie Proulx' style of writing (which is more impenetrable to a non English native, I think).

And for the holiday, we had a great time Chrissi. It was relaxing, we even took a walk with snow shoes, something I had never done before. It was great fun, very strenuous, but the silence in the mountains when there's just a few people about is amazing.


Hey Fabienne! *waves*  :-*

I ordered LD yesterday evening. Amazon said it would take three weeks to arrive :-\. Maybe I'm lucky and it'll arrive sooner.
A really thick and fascinating book, one you can get lost in for hours, is what I really like, and it sound that's just what LD is.

I also won't bother to look up unknown words (mostly). It disrupts the natural flow of a story and the "getting lost" in it.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 03, 2009, 02:45:57 pm


I'm here to report that I finished the mini series last night!  I really enjoyed it, and can't say frequently enough how much I enjoyed the performances of Tommy Lee Jones and Robert Duvall.  I liked the book slightly better than the mini-series... but, really both were great.

Pretty soon I'll start reading Dead Man's Walk and report here about that too.  So, stay tuned!

:)

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: ifyoucantfixit on March 03, 2009, 08:57:51 pm



   I am really glad you enjoyed it so much Amanda.  I sure did too. I am one of those people when I read a book,
or watch a series like that, if I love it.  I hate to see it end.  I want it to keep going and going... 
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: mariez on March 03, 2009, 09:45:05 pm
Fabienne, I'm glad to hear you're enjoying LD so much - it's easy to see why McMurty received a Pulitzer for it, isn't it? 

Chrissi, I'm exicted for you to get the book and start reading, too. 

Amanda, I couldn't agree more about the performances of Duvall and Jones - they were amazing in the roles.


SPOILER

~~~~
~~~~
~~~~
~~~~




Near the end, when Call was at Gus's bedside - there is a moment when he just says, "Gus" that really touched me.   You could just feel how much Gus meant to him.   :'(  And I can't believe Duvall did not win an Emmy for his performance - he was outstanding.

Marie
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 03, 2009, 11:13:23 pm
*spoilers*

I agree that Call/ Tommy Lee Jones's performance during Gus's deathbed scene is outstanding, and Duvall's is all the way through.  I think that, in the mini-series in particular, Call becomes much more sympathetic (or at least I feel increasingly sorry for him) around the time of Gus's death and after.

Prior to Gus's death, I enjoyed Call for the banter and bickering with Gus, which I always founds charming and funny at points.  But, in the early stages of the story I don't particularly feel much for Call as a character on his own.  But, with Gus's death, I guess inevitably, Call's own character comes into better focus... and his emotional struggles/ emotional repressions become more and more poignant.  With Gus's death, Call's devotion to Gus becomes very clear, and, it's of course, very touching too.


I agree also about the idea that I was sad with LD (the book) ended.  I'm excited to read the two books that, in terms of narrative chronology, come before LD.  Because, I'm very curious about the partnership between Gus and Call in their younger days.



Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 17, 2009, 02:23:52 pm

As part of "bump-fest" I thought I'd revive this thread a bit.

I've also been meaning to stop by and mention that I started reading Dead Man's Walk the other night.  I'm only about 30 pages into it so far.  And, yikes!  I have to say that so far it seems quite brutally realistic and graphic.  I know McMurtry had moments of that in LD too... but he seems to start this one off on some startling notes!

And, LOL, I notice the theme of Call trying to train a difficult mare has come back in this one.

I'm excited to learn more about how Call and Gus got started in their early years.
:)

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: belbbmfan on March 17, 2009, 05:03:12 pm
I finished reading Lonesome Dove a couple of days ago and I have to say, I feel a bit like Newt, you know, left behind. These characters have been with me for a couple of weeks now and I've been thinking about them, even when I wasn't reading. I want to know what happens next. It's like I'm not ready to 'leave them be'.

At times I found it difficult to read because I've gotten so involved with some of the characters. I felt so sorry for Lorie, Deets or Clara. I wanted good things to happen to them. Like Clara said 'it's too much death'. But I guess that's just how things were, tough and tragic.

I can really see why Brokeback Mountain resonated with Larry McMurty in the way it did. There's a strong sense of 'if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it' in Lonesome Dove too.

I've enjoyed reading this book immensely.  :)
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: mariez on March 17, 2009, 06:09:12 pm
As part of "bump-fest" I thought I'd revive this thread a bit.

I've also been meaning to stop by and mention that I started reading Dead Man's Walk the other night.  I'm only about 30 pages into it so far.  And, yikes!  I have to say that so far it seems quite brutally realistic and graphic.  I know McMurtry had moments of that in LD too... but he seems to start this one off on some startling notes!

And, LOL, I notice the theme of Call trying to train a difficult mare has come back in this one.

I'm excited to learn more about how Call and Gus got started in their early years.
:)


Hey, Amanda,

It's been a few years since I read Dead Man's Walk, so I don't remember every detail, but I do remember that it can be very raw and as you said, brutally realistic.  If I recall, that type of realism continues throughout the book. I do remember while reading, thinking "How does he think of this stuff?"    LD was my favorite of all the books in the series, but they're all well written, and it is interesting to see how and why Call and Gus developed such a strong bond. 

I finished reading Lonesome Dove a couple of days ago and I have to say, I feel a bit like Newt, you know, left behind. These characters have been with me for a couple of weeks now and I've been thinking about them, even when I wasn't reading. I want to know what happens next. It's like I'm not ready to 'leave them be'.

At times I found it difficult to read because I've gotten so involved with some of the characters. I felt so sorry for Lorie, Deets or Clara. I wanted good things to happen to them. Like Clara said 'it's too much death'. But I guess that's just how things were, tough and tragic.

I can really see why Brokeback Mountain resonated with Larry McMurty in the way it did. There's a strong sense of 'if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it' in Lonesome Dove too.

I've enjoyed reading this book immensely.  :)

I'm so glad you enjoyed it, Fabienne.  I figured you would.   :)  I agree that it's the type of story that becomes a part of you while you're reading it and for a while after.  And, yes, it's easy to see why McMurtry made such an immediate connection with Brokeback Mountain - he knew the people well.   
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 19, 2009, 01:17:59 pm


*spoilers*

OMG!! Last night I just read the whole episode in Dead Man's Walk in which Gus is stalked in the pitch dark by Buffalo Hump.  Wow!  That was so well-written.  Talk about a pitch perfect way of making a reader truly experience and sense the fear that the character is experiencing.  It's sections of writing like that that I truly love about McMurtry as an author.
:)

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: mariez on March 19, 2009, 01:46:07 pm

*spoilers*

OMG!! Last night I just read the whole episode in Dead Man's Walk in which Gus is stalked in the pitch dark by Buffalo Hump.  Wow!  That was so well-written.  Talk about a pitch perfect way of making a reader truly experience and sense the fear that the character is experiencing.  It's sections of writing like that that I truly love about McMurtry as an author.
:)


Yes, I remember that part clearly!  It definitely stays with you.  Hope it didn't give you nightmares, Amanda!
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 19, 2009, 01:52:20 pm
Yes, I remember that part clearly!  It definitely stays with you.  Hope it didn't give you nightmares, Amanda!

LOL.  No, it didn't give me nightmares.  I just thought it was very, very effective writing.

The whole topic of the different Native American populations and individual Native Americans discussed and depicted in both LD and now DMW is interesting and complex.  Obviously, an individual character like Blue Duck (I don't really know enough about Buffalo Hump yet, to be able to speak too much about him), is really, really un-likable in his brutality and cruelty.  But, as a more general subject, I tend to feel so, so sorry for the Native American tribes... in terms of their land being taken over, their populations being largely eradicated, etc.  The scenario in LD describing the starving tribe that they stumble upon coinciding with Deets' death is just such a sad situation.  I have very mixed feelings about the whole topic.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: mariez on March 19, 2009, 02:07:54 pm
LOL.  No, it didn't give me nightmares.  I just thought it was very, very effective writing.

The whole topic of the different Native American populations and individual Native Americans discussed and depicted in both LD and now DMW is interesting and complex.  Obviously, an individual character like Blue Duck (I don't really know enough about Buffalo Hump yet, to be able to speak too much about him), is really, really un-likable in his brutality and cruelty.  But, as a more general subject, I tend to feel so, so sorry for the Native American tribes... in terms of their land being taken over, their populations being largely eradicated, etc.  The scenario in LD describing the starving tribe that they stumble upon coinciding with Deets' death is just such a sad situation.  I have very mixed feelings about the whole topic.

Yes, McMurtry tackles the plight of the Native Americans in a lot more detail in DMW and "Comanche Moon" than he did in LD.  I think the fact that you have mixed feelings shows that he's doing his job well.  He doesn't try to sugarcoat the brutality of individual Native Americans or tribes, but he also doesn't try to paper over the fact that the Native Americans were wronged in so many ways. 
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 19, 2009, 02:55:42 pm
Yes, McMurtry tackles the plight of the Native Americans in a lot more detail in DMW and "Comanche Moon" than he did in LD.  I think the fact that you have mixed feelings shows that he's doing his job well.  He doesn't try to sugarcoat the brutality of individual Native Americans or tribes, but he also doesn't try to paper over the fact that the Native Americans were wronged in so many ways. 

To me, there's a way to see the settlers and Call, Gus, etc. as the trespassers and the dangerous figures when you think about the overall situation from the Native American perspective.

The cruelty of individual Native Americans like Blue Duck is horrifying... but the cruelty of settlers displacing and killing the Native American population is also horrifying in its own way.  It makes the consideration of the stories McMurtry tells very complex and nuanced.  And, you're right that he does a good job balancing a sense of the cruelty and brutality with a sense of the overall circumstances for the wider population of Native Americans and settlers.





Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: belbbmfan on March 19, 2009, 02:59:27 pm
I ordered Streets of Laredo yesterday. I can't wait to read more. I'm actually hesitating starting another book while I wait for this one to arrive. I tend to get disappointed by the book I read after reading a book that I found very enthralling. It raises the bar. I just need to find a really really good one to tie me over.


*spoilers*

OMG!! Last night I just read the whole episode in Dead Man's Walk in which Gus is stalked in the pitch dark by Buffalo Hump.  Wow!  That was so well-written.  Talk about a pitch perfect way of making a reader truly experience and sense the fear that the character is experiencing.  It's sections of writing like that that I truly love about McMurtry as an author.
:)



Oh gosh, and I already found some of the passages in LD difficult to read. I almost dreaded turning the page, wondering what would happen next (I'm thinking about the Lorena situation here). The suspense was sometimes killing me.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 19, 2009, 03:21:04 pm

That's great that you ordered Streets of Laredo!  Whenever I think of that title, I think of Ennis humming the "Streets of Laredo" song before he encounters the bear.

That's the one book from the series that I've yet to order.  I decided I wanted to read about Call and Gus in their younger years first before I tackled the Streets of Laredo last.  So, after I read Dead Man's Walk, I'm going to read Comanche Moon.



Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: belbbmfan on March 30, 2009, 02:35:38 pm
'Streets of Laredo' arrived today! Yeehaw.  :)

I've started reading it and once again, I'm having trouble putting it down. Right from the very first sentence I'm back in the world of Lonesome Dove. Well, not quite since this books starts 15 years later than where Lonesome Dove finished and lots of things have happened in that time.

I've already encountered a brokeism:

'See you for supper'  :)

The book is dedicated to Diana and Sara Ossana.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 30, 2009, 02:38:25 pm

The book is dedicated to Diana and Sara Ossana.

That's very cool Fabienne! 

And, it makes me happy to hear about the Brokieism.
:)


I'm glad you're enjoying it.  I'm still really enjoying Dead Man's Walk myself.



Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 31, 2009, 10:57:48 am
As usual, I am lagging behind on Lonesome Dove. But, at last the team has started off on their journey. I'm actually beginning Chapter 46 and I'm feeling a lot of apprehension. The trip didn't start off too well with the attack of the water moccasins. And now Jake has run off and left Lorena, not to mention the odious things that happened when Woodrow and Gus tried to get a whiskey at a bar they had fond memories of. Lorena is a very simpatico character who has seemed to be a zombie up until now but she's starting to examine her feelings and wake up to new possibilities. I still enjoy the banter between the Cap'n and Gus, but there is something missing...hopefully the love and passion between them will show itself later. McMurtry does a wonderful job describing the confusion and tumult of a young person's brain when talking about the young hands who have signed on to the cattle drive. He also describes the horses, cattle, and pigs well.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 31, 2009, 12:43:50 pm
As usual, I am lagging behind on Lonesome Dove. But, at last the team has started off on their journey. I'm actually beginning Chapter 46 and I'm feeling a lot of apprehension. The trip didn't start off too well with the attack of the water moccasins. And now Jake has run off and left Lorena, not to mention the odious things that happened when Woodrow and Gus tried to get a whiskey at a bar they had fond memories of. Lorena is a very simpatico character who has seemed to be a zombie up until now but she's starting to examine her feelings and wake up to new possibilities. I still enjoy the banter between the Cap'n and Gus, but there is something missing...hopefully the love and passion between them will show itself later. McMurtry does a wonderful job describing the confusion and tumult of a young person's brain when talking about the young hands who have signed on to the cattle drive. He also describes the horses, cattle, and pigs well.

:)  Sure enough... the drama is just beginning!

I love the way McMurtry describes the animals and the ways the guys worked with the animals too.  Some of the details of everyday work were really interesting to me when I read LD.

McMurtry also has an interesting writing rhythm... going from descriptions of very mundane/ everyday type subjects to extremely high drama with the turn of a page.  Certain turns of events were truly unexpected to me throughout the book.

And, yes, I think it takes a while to get a sense of the relationship between Call and Gus.  In the beginning of LD, I recall it was a lot of them bantering and picking on each other and bickering a bit.  I think it's meant to give a sense of a long established relationship where each party feels comfortable ribbing the other... or like an old married couple that bickers, but is very comfortable together.  I mean by the time LD starts, they've already known each other for decades.  In Dead Man's Walk, I'm learning about 19-year old Call and Gus.  It's interesting to see how their personalies seemed as much younger men.  I tend to see Call as an Ennis-type and Gus as a Jack-type.  Call is always very reserved with his emotions and Gus is gregarious and social.  Call, to me, is much more difficult to understand than Gus.  Gus, to me, becomes increasingly likeable as the story goes on and Call remains an enigma.

**not really a spoiler... but could possibly seem that way**
It's not until the end where the reader necessarily understands the strength of Call's emotions for Gus and his level of devotion.  In my understanding of the two of them, I don't know if I'd call their relationship "passionate"... somehow I think things like "trust" and "devotion" and "companionship" might fit their relationship better.







Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 31, 2009, 10:40:10 pm
Vivien, you're back! I've missed you! But, it's not Halloween, but welcome enniway!!
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on April 01, 2009, 09:01:09 am
Vivien, you're back! I've missed you! But, it's not Halloween, but welcome enniway!!

Thanks Friend! It may not be Halloween... but it is April Fool's Day!  :D


Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on April 01, 2009, 02:03:58 pm
You're right, as usual, my friend the wily black cat!

Of all the interwoven stories going on, I love the story of Roscoe the inept deputy the most. For a timid bumbler, he seems to wander into fortunate situations involving women who are able to help him a lot. Now he's paired up with Janey, a backwoods Athena, and they just managed to escape certain death at the hands of two outlaws.

I'm also enjoying seeing how the main characters split up and come together again, even though they travel a large territory. Larry McMurtry is such a master at the logistics of plot!!
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on April 01, 2009, 02:56:11 pm
You're right, as usual, my friend the wily black cat!

Of all the interwoven stories going on, I love the story of Roscoe the inept deputy the most. For a timid bumbler, he seems to wander into fortunate situations involving women who are able to help him a lot. Now he's paired up with Janey, a backwoods Athena, and they just managed to escape certain death at the hands of two outlaws.

I'm also enjoying seeing how the main characters split up and come together again, even though they travel a large territory. Larry McMurtry is such a master at the logistics of plot!!


I'm glad you're enjoying it Mrs. Robinson! :)  I really like Roscoe and Janey too.  Roscoe is so bumbling, but likeable... and Janey is such a strong little kid, resourceful, etc.!

You're absolutely right about how odd it is to think about people bumping into each other or crossing paths, etc. across such vast amounts of geography.  Sometimes it feels like Larry's talking about people running into each other within the space of a small town or community rather than hundreds and thousands of miles.  It's a trend that keeps happening throughout the book and in Dead Man's Walk too.


On a different note... last night in the bath tub as I was reading DMW (I read a lot in the bath tub)... I came up with a pretty concrete reason why I preferred the book Lonesome Dove to the mini-series (even though I enjoyed the mini series... it didn't have the same impact on me as the book).  I think the access to the different characters' internal thoughts and first person observations, musings, fears, etc. in the book is so compelling.  Seeing these different adventures in the first person through the eyes and thoughts of the different people was a vital part of LD and still is in DMW.  I mean, in the book LD, experiencing the early part of the cattle drive through the eyes of Newt (experiencing his fears, and seeing things fresh through his relatively naive eyes... much like the reader is to some of the cowboy customs and activities, was really effective).  In the mini-series, we're observing the characters from a distance, but we're not allowed the same access into their heads.  It's just a slightly different experience of both the story and the characters.




Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on April 03, 2009, 10:25:39 pm


The other night I noticed another Brokieism embedded... well, this time in Dead Man's Walk. 

**not really a spoiler of much significance.  but a minor spoiler nonetheless**

There's a passage in the middle of the book where a large group of Rangers is trying to reach New Mexico from Austin, and most of the rangers are quite in experienced and very few know much about the territory they're crossing.  At one point they encounter an enormous herd of buffalo.  Most of them get excited about the idea of hunting.  But the Captain leading the expedition gives a general order forbidding anyone from shooting a buffalo.  And, one of the Rangers makes a comment very similar to Jack's observation about the sheep... "but there's thousands of them."

The general descriptions of the huge buffalo herd very much reminded me of the way the sheep were sometimes described (an even visualized in the film)...  extending for a long, long distance, filling the field of vision, etc.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on April 13, 2009, 02:02:33 pm

So, the end is in sight for Dead Man's Walk for me.  I have maybe about 100 pages left, and I'll start Comanche Moon after that. 


I'm liking Dead Man's Walk but not as much as LD.  There got to a point in the flow of this narrative a while back where it feels like McMurtry started almost going through a laundry list of "worst case scenarios".  LOL, it really does just feel like one horrible situation after another.  It's hard to believe that anyone could survive some of the circumstances they encounter on the "walk."  I mean, I know that Call and Gus must survive this adventure (I keep reminding myself of this), but wow, the whole thing seems very grim.  This book is responsible for giving me a nightmare!  Which is a pretty unusual thing for me.


Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: mariez on April 14, 2009, 01:42:34 pm
So, the end is in sight for Dead Man's Walk for me.  I have maybe about 100 pages left, and I'll start Comanche Moon after that. 


I'm liking Dead Man's Walk but not as much as LD.  There got to a point in the flow of this narrative a while back where it feels like McMurtry started almost going through a laundry list of "worst case scenarios".  LOL, it really does just feel like one horrible situation after another.  It's hard to believe that anyone could survive some of the circumstances they encounter on the "walk."  I mean, I know that Call and Gus must survive this adventure (I keep reminding myself of this), but wow, the whole thing seems very grim.  This book is responsible for giving me a nightmare!  Which is a pretty unusual thing for me.


Oh, no - so it actually did ending up giving you a nightmare!  Was it one specific part?  I agree with your assessment, Amanda.  LD stands out as my favorite book in the series, although I did like the others.  It's been a while since I've read it, but I believe the "worst case scenarios" continue right through the end.  There was also a mini-series made of DMW.  I wouldn't buy it - but it's worth watching (I borrowed a copy from my local library).  Let us know when you complete the book and what you think of the ending.  :)

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on April 14, 2009, 04:23:02 pm

Oh, no - so it actually did ending up giving you a nightmare!  Was it one specific part?  I agree with your assessment, Amanda.  LD stands out as my favorite book in the series, although I did like the others.  It's been a while since I've read it, but I believe the "worst case scenarios" continue right through the end.  There was also a mini-series made of DMW.  I wouldn't buy it - but it's worth watching (I borrowed a copy from my local library).  Let us know when you complete the book and what you think of the ending.  :)



Heya,

Well, I'm probably about 20 pages from the end, so I'll certainly finish the book this evening.


**spoilers ahead**


LOL, the part that gave me a nightmare a couple nights ago was the introduction to the leper colony.  At that point, I thought good grief!  What next!?  In this book McMurtry certainly lets his sort of darker imagination have free reign.  I don't remember the bad news being so constant in LD.  There are so many parts in this book that could inspire a bad dream.  But, for some reason the inital ways that he described the lepers' hospital really got to me.  The whole idea of leprosy gives me the chills.






Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: mariez on April 15, 2009, 12:21:56 pm
Heya,

Well, I'm probably about 20 pages from the end, so I'll certainly finish the book this evening.


**spoilers ahead**


LOL, the part that gave me a nightmare a couple nights ago was the introduction to the leper colony.  At that point, I thought good grief!  What next!?  In this book McMurtry certainly lets his sort of darker imagination have free reign.  I don't remember the bad news being so constant in LD.  There are so many parts in this book that could inspire a bad dream.  But, for some reason the inital ways that he described the lepers' hospital really got to me.  The whole idea of leprosy gives me the chills.

*spoilers*



Ahh, yes, the leper colony - ugh.  No, the bad news was not so constant in LD.  But I do think you're prepared now, somewhat, for the remaining books.  Comanche Moon is longer and there are a few more "ups" interspersed with the "downs" but there are some very, very (I thought) frightening and gruesome parts.  And "Streets of Laredo" is probably the darkest of the books - I read somewhere that McMurtry was in a dark place in his own life when he wrote it - and it shows.  The dvd of "Streets of Laredo" ends, I think, on a slightly more upbeat tone than the book. 
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on April 15, 2009, 03:10:29 pm
Usually I am not overly upset by books with volatile, even tragic, content, (after all, I'm a fan of Annie Proulx's work!) but I'm sort of at a place in my life where a constant diet of trials and tribulations resembles my day-to-day existence too much!! Maybe that's why I've been slowly making my way through Lonesome Dove...I just finished Part II.

It's interesting to contrast Proulx's and McMurtry's writing. They share some elements of style, but with Annie, she'll have Ennis say he shot a coyote while sitting around the campfire, but Larry will take us out with Call and McCrae when they go on a shooting expedition. So, LD has a lot more action in it, while giving less of the interior monologue than Annie does. I'm thinking of the forays into the wilderness of the old man in The Half-Skinned Steer or of Jewell at the end of Postcards. We know exactly what the characters are thinking as they venture into uncharted territory, whereas with McMurtry, we know exactly what's happening, and must infer what's in the hidden interior landscape. There are a few exceptions, such as the young characters whose impressions of the West McMurtry likes to describe, and the thoughts of Lorie, whose consciousness comes and goes.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on April 15, 2009, 03:13:37 pm
The young Che Guevara visited a leper colony in the book/movie The Motorcycle Diaries. I wonder how those scenes compare to that passage in Dead Man's Walk.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on April 21, 2009, 04:27:57 pm

Hmmm, I've never read or seen The Motorcycle Diaries, so I don't really know.  LOL, I'm pretty thankful to say that I've rarely encountered extended treatment of leper colonies or lepers in literature, as happens at the end of Dead Man's Walk.  The whole topic gives me the chills.


I finished the book several days ago and am still kind of recovering from it.  The bleakness and brutality of McMurtry's writing in this book still is surprising to me.  I'm going to read Comanche Moon and Streets of Laredo because now I'm pretty determined to finish the series.  But, I think I may need a little break for a while.  So, I may try to read something else before I tackle Comanche Moon.  I'll admit that I'm intimidated by these next two books.  Yikes, if Streets of Laredo is the most grim of all... it really must be quite something, since Dead Man's Walk seemed so brutal to me.



Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on April 21, 2009, 05:22:51 pm
Yes, you should read a palate-cleansing book in between. Nothing by Cormac McCarthy, mind you. He makes McMurtry read like a ...I was going to say fairy tale, but many of those fairy tales are brutal!! Telegraph Days is a relatively sunny book by McMurtry. I finished LD thanks to a power outage that kept me away from the computer. Now, I'm reading Dandelion Wine by Ray Bradbury. I have lots to say about LD, though, if people would still like to discuss. Talking helps me process it all.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on April 21, 2009, 08:04:18 pm
Yes, you should read a palate-cleansing book in between. Nothing by Cormac McCarthy, mind you. He makes McMurtry read like a ...I was going to say fairy tale, but many of those fairy tales are brutal!! Telegraph Days is a relatively sunny book by McMurtry. I finished LD thanks to a power outage that kept me away from the computer. Now, I'm reading Dandelion Wine by Ray Bradbury. I have lots to say about LD, though, if people would still like to discuss. Talking helps me process it all.

Congrats on finishing LD!  Sure, I'd like to hear your reactions! 

I'll say that Dead Man's Walk was a good book but LD itself, IMO was in a slightly different league.  I really loved LD.  Both books are page-turners.  But, the pacing of LD is so much different.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 12, 2009, 01:04:54 pm

Heya,
I'm here to report that I'm gearing up to read Comanche Moon soon.  It's next on my "to read" list.  I'll admit that I'm slightly intimidated to start this book after the kind-of overwhelming-ness of Dead Man's Walk.  At the same time, I'm excited to get back into this series.  And, I'm still determined to finish the series.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: mariez on June 12, 2009, 02:17:40 pm
Heya,
I'm here to report that I'm gearing up to read Comanche Moon soon.  It's next on my "to read" list.  I'll admit that I'm slightly intimidated to start this book after the kind-of overwhelming-ness of Dead Man's Walk.  At the same time, I'm excited to get back into this series.  And, I'm still determined to finish the series.



Hey, Amanda!  Thanks for the update.  I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on Comanche Moon.

Actually, I was just coming to this thread to say that American Movie Classics (AMC) will be showing the Lonesome Dove mini-series in four parts beginning this weekend:

http://www.amctv.com/movienights/lonesome-dove/ (http://www.amctv.com/movienights/lonesome-dove/)
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on June 12, 2009, 08:56:52 pm
Hey, Amanda!  Thanks for the update.  I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on Comanche Moon.

Actually, I was just coming to this thread to say that American Movie Classics (AMC) will be showing the Lonesome Dove mini-series in four parts beginning this weekend:

http://www.amctv.com/movienights/lonesome-dove/ (http://www.amctv.com/movienights/lonesome-dove/)

I will be sure to catch that!
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on June 15, 2009, 11:14:38 am
I only caught the last segment last nite. It was good, but seemed awfully compressed. The book spoiled me. Captain Call's expressions reminded me so much of Heath's in Brokeback Mountain. His eyes seemed to be looking out between the bars of a prison. It made me miss him a lot.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 15, 2009, 11:33:59 am
I'm glad you enjoyed watching at least the last segment Lee.  My reaction to the mini-series was much the same as yours.  I feel like a lot was missing in the mini-series since the internal/introspective thoughts and viewpoints of the various characters were not included in the same way as in the book.  And, yes, even though the mini-series is long, it does seem to go by quickly or to feel compressed. 

I didn't watch it on TV this time around since I bought the DVDs a while back and watched it then, I didn't feel a huge sense of urgency to watch it again.  I will definitely watch it again some day.  But, again, I didn't feel the need to see it again quite so soon.

I'll keep you all posted about when I start reading Comanche Moon.  I still have to finish my current book first.



Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: SFEnnisSF on July 25, 2009, 08:16:30 pm
I came across an article somewhere the other day about the all time best westerns (move or book) as rated by real cowboys, cowgirls, and western folk.  #1 was Lonesome Dove.  I guess I'll have to rent this...
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: retropian on July 26, 2009, 04:48:33 am
I came across an article somewhere the other day about the all time best westerns (move or book) as rated by real cowboys, cowgirls, and western folk.  #1 was Lonesome Dove.  I guess I'll have to rent this...

Oh, definitely you should. It is very good. Gus and Woodrow are life partners, albeit heterosexual ones, but they are deeply committed to each other. I remember Larry M. commenting that when he read BBM he asked himself why he didn't think of a story about gay cowboys, it just had never occurred to him. He came so close with Gus and Woodrow, but never thought taking it to the next level. Also, if you haven't seen it you should also rent "The Last Picture Show", which Larry also wrote. It's a very poignant tale of the residents of a dying Texas town. I think that, and Lonsome Dove being written my him also enrich BBM in a way. It's like reading the entire short story collection "Open Range" by Annie P. puts BBM in a greater context than enriches it further, so does viewing "Lonsome Dove" and The Last Picture Show". They add something to BBM by putting the movie and the story in a greater context. Somehow to me, they mysteriously expand BBM.
Ian
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 27, 2009, 11:15:25 am
I came across an article somewhere the other day about the all time best westerns (move or book) as rated by real cowboys, cowgirls, and western folk.  #1 was Lonesome Dove.  I guess I'll have to rent this...

Yeah, I highly recommend it... for its own sake and for the insights it provides into certain aspects of BBM.

I really suggest reading it as well as watching the mini-series.  I enjoyed the book a lot more... while I also like the mini-series well enough.

I still haven't gotten around to Comanche Moon yet.... but it's definitely still on my to-read pile.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: belbbmfan on July 27, 2009, 11:42:32 am
I came across an article somewhere the other day about the all time best westerns (move or book) as rated by real cowboys, cowgirls, and western folk.  #1 was Lonesome Dove.  I guess I'll have to rent this...

I agree with Amanda, Eric. Read the book, ALL of them.  ;D No seriously, they are fantastic. Very well written, very engaging, with very dry humour, which I really really liked. I've read all four of them and now my husband has started Dead Man's Walk. He's hooked too. Call and Gus are quite a pair and I thought some of the women were especially fully written characters (Clara and Lorena). They have all been on my mind a lot.

I'm considering buying other books by McMurtry, but I'm not sure where to start.

Amanda have you read any of his other books?
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: milomorris on July 27, 2009, 11:46:37 am
It's like reading the entire short story collection "Open Range" by Annie P. puts BBM in a greater context than enriches it further, so does viewing "Lonsome Dove" and The Last Picture Show". They add something to BBM by putting the movie and the story in a greater context. Somehow to me, they mysteriously expand BBM.
Ian

I have found that to be true in other arts as well. I first sang in a production of LA BOHEME fairly early in my operatic career. At the time it was the only Puccini I knew. Over the years, I have sung some of Puccini's other operas, and seen/heard others. Becoming more familiar with the composer's style and vocabulary via the other operas certainly clarified LA BOHEME for me musically, and also adds to the drama.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 27, 2009, 12:42:46 pm
I agree with Amanda, Eric. Read the book, ALL of them.  ;D No seriously, they are fantastic. Very well written, very engaging, with very dry humour, which I really really liked. I've read all four of them and now my husband has started Dead Man's Walk. He's hooked too. Call and Gus are quite a pair and I thought some of the women were especially fully written characters (Clara and Lorena). They have all been on my mind a lot.

I'm considering buying other books by McMurtry, but I'm not sure where to start.

Amanda have you read any of his other books?

Hey Bud!

I'm glad you enjoyed the whole series! 8)
I've only read Lonesome Dove and Dead Man's Walk so far.  I definitely intend to read the others.  I commented on Dead Man's Walk earlier in this thread.  I liked it, but not as well as Lonesome Dove.  Dead Man's Walk was so bleak and traumatic so constantly, there were times when I thought it was kind of hard to take.  But, I definitely liked it altogether.  Gus and Call really are amazing characters and I'm excited to learn more about them in the other books.  And, I also agree that McMurtry does a good job making his female characters fully formed and complex individuals.  He's certainly a talented storyteller.

Eric, I'd say... definitely don't let the length of the books be a deterant.  I put off reading LD for a long time, simply because of the huge page-count.  But, I've found that McMurtry is such a compelling storyteller that these books are really fast page-turners.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on November 15, 2009, 07:06:34 pm
Well, I've taken the plunge!!  I started Comanche Moon last night! :) 

I'm only one chapter deep into it so far.  And, my initial impression... I don't think this constitutes a spoiler...  is, LOL, wow it really just jumps right in to the middle of a narrative.  It almost feels like it's starts in the middle of an ongoing novel, with very little if any intro aspect.  In a way, I think that's very cool.   

I'll post my impressions here as I go along.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: mariez on November 15, 2009, 07:59:22 pm
Well, I've taken the plunge!!  I started Comanche Moon last night! :) 

I'm only one chapter deep into it so far.  And, my initial impression... I don't think this constitutes a spoiler...  is, LOL, wow it really just jumps right in to the middle of a narrative.  It almost feels like it's starts in the middle of an ongoing novel, with very little if any intro aspect.  In a way, I think that's very cool.   

I'll post my impressions here as I go along.



I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts, Amanda.  It's been a few years since I've read Comanche Moon, and while I'm sure I've forgotten many details, I do remember that it's eventful and adventuresome!  :)
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on November 18, 2009, 09:44:01 pm
Thanks Marie! :)

I'm now about 100 pages into the book, and I'm really liking it.  The pace of it is reminding me more of Lonesome Dove than Dead Man's Walk.  The moments of high drama and the moments of relative quiet, character back-story, etc. seem well timed and well interspersed- as seemed to be the case with LD for me.  My overall impression of DMW was that the grim, dire, extremely dramatic material was a little too constant.  Clearly, I still have a ton to go in Comanche Moon, but so far so good!

LOL, and this may seem silly, but I keep finding it amusing that one of the main characters so far in CM has the first name of Inish.  Which, seems like it must sound a lot like Ennis when pronounced outloud.  I'm not saying that I see any parallels between that character and Ennis.... but the names just strike me.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: mariez on November 18, 2009, 09:58:58 pm
Thanks Marie! :)

I'm now about 100 pages into the book, and I'm really liking it.  The pace of it is reminding me more of Lonesome Dove than Dead Man's Walk.  The moments of high drama and the moments of relative quiet, character back-story, etc. seem well timed and well interspersed- as seemed to be the case with LD for me.  My overall impression of DMW was that the grim, dire, extremely material was a little too constant.  Clearly, I still have a ton to go in Comanche Moon, but so far so good!

LOL, and this may seem silly, but I keep finding it amusing that one of the main characters so far in CM has the first name of Inish.  Which, seems like it must sound a lot like Ennis when pronounced outloud.  I'm not saying that I see any parallels between that character and Ennis.... but the names just strike me.



Yes, I think LD and CM  have more in common stylistically than DMW.  Not to say CM won't have plenty of grim and diire moments, but there is more of a variety of plotlines and themes than DMW.  And LOL at Inish  - that's right! 
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on November 18, 2009, 10:58:16 pm

LOL, yeah, I'm expecting the dire content... and I do like the super dramatic moments/ story-lines.  But, it's nice to have it in doses.  At least for me. :)

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on November 19, 2009, 09:13:02 am
Thanks Marie! :)


LOL, and this may seem silly, but I keep finding it amusing that one of the main characters so far in CM has the first name of Inish.  Which, seems like it must sound a lot like Ennis when pronounced outloud.  I'm not saying that I see any parallels between that character and Ennis.... but the names just strike me.

Hmm, I just acquried a DVD called The Secret of Roan Inish. Haven't seen it yet. I'll let you know of enni parallels. Getting ready for my trip next summer to the fair isles!
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 09, 2010, 12:59:52 pm
Heya,
I thought I'd revive this thread!  I'm here to report that I'm still reading Comanche Moon.  I'm a couple hundred pages into it and still have a ways to go.  Clearly, this one is going more slowly for me than the other two that I've read so far.  But, that has a lot to do with my reading pace (for a while I was just reading one little section at a time) and the fact that I took several weeks off around the holidays.  I took Comanche Moon up again in earnest this week.

And, as usual, my overall impression is that, wow, McMurtry really is quite a storyteller.  Really impressive.  And, my main lingering question as I read a lot of the scenarios he describes is... I'd love to know what his research and writing methods were.  How many of the aspects of Comanche culture are based on some kind of real research that McMurtry did, and how much is pure fiction and just part of McMurtry's storyweaving?  I imagine that all the Lonesome Dove books must have taken a great deal of research - about historic western culture, old cowboy habits, Native American history, etc.  This one, in particular, with its goal of showing a lot more of the narrative from the Native American perspective I find this question particularly interesting.

Anyway, I also love learning more about Maggie and Clara.  I think one of McMurtry's greatest strengths is shifting perspectives around from character to character.  I love getting some first-person perspectives from Maggie and Clara, in addition to the rangers, the Comanches, etc.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 09, 2010, 01:35:35 pm
Great to hear! McMurtry has always been very strong in portraying women, as his writing partner Diana Ossana has observed.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: SFEnnisSF on January 09, 2010, 03:37:26 pm
Howdy All,

Well I did finally rent Lonesome Dove on DVD and it was very good.   :)
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 09, 2010, 03:49:19 pm
Howdy All,

Well I did finally rent Lonesome Dove on DVD and it was very good.   :)

Glad to hear you liked it Eric!  Yeah, of the 3 books I've read so far, I like Loneseome Dove the best by far.  And, the acting in the mini-series really was very good.  Now I always think of/ picture Robert Duvall and Tommy Lee Jones now when I'm reading about either Gus or Call in the books.

Great to hear! McMurtry has always been very strong in portraying women, as his writing partner Diana Ossana has observed.

Yes he treats the female characters (in this case I'm talking about Maggie and Clara in Comanche Moon).  It's interesting to get a tiny glimpse of something like female society... in the interactions between Maggie and Clara and even Pearl and Inez to some extent.  Things like class hierarchy and status... for instance, Maggie being a prostitue and Clara not going that route become very interesting in seeing how the different women reacting to one another (with sympathy or not).  While he treats them in a complex way, so far at least, McMurtry certainly doesn't spend all that much time dwelling on the female characters, however.  So, while we learn a bit more about them in this book, I wish he'd spend a little more time on them and their story lines.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 22, 2010, 10:33:50 pm

Heya,
I'm still slowly working my way through Comanche Moon... one small section at a time normally.  I'm enjoying it, but I can only handle small doses of it at a time.  I found Lonesome Dove itself to be a true page turner... and I finished that one so quickly.  But Dead Man's Walk and this one are slower for me.  Clearly, there were grim and violent moments in LD, but I didn't find that kind of tone to dominate the story.  I thought that a general grimness or even gruesomeness was too predominant in DMW.  And, Comanche Moon, I'm finding to be more balanced... more like LD.  In this one, it seems like McMurtry goes to some length to try to intersperse moments of comic relief... sometimes awkward, strange or dark humor... but humor nonetheless.  Still, having read these books now, I'm continually kind of amazed at how grim (there's that word again) McMurtry's imagination seems to be sometimes.

Anyway... I thought I'd post a quotation from Comanche Moon that I found really interesting... and kind of reminded me of a certain mood in BBM. It reminds me of the continued presence of Jack in Ennis's life even after Jack's death. There may be a small spoiler involved in this quotation... so if you don't want to know any specific details about CM... please don't read!

"...[H]e too had been friends with Long Bill for many years.  He had known several men who had lost limbs in battle; the men all claimed that they still felt things in the place where the limb had been.  It was natural enough, then, that with Bill suddenly gone he and Gus would continue to have some of the feelings that went with friendship, even though the friend was gone." (p. 394)

 
[*more spoilers* -- by way of some more context here... Call and Gus are mourning the sudden death by suicide of their long-time ranger partner and friend.  These are Call's thoughts in reaction to Gus's deep mourning for their mutual friend.]



Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: SFEnnisSF on January 23, 2010, 12:32:36 am
I just got through the 2-disc set of Larry McMurtry's Dead Man's Walk.  It wasn't until the very end that I realized it's the same characters from Lonesome Dove.  :D  :laugh:  I had only rented it because of Larry McMurtry and Diana Osana.  And I now also see that the movies I put in my Netflix queue, Streets of Laredo, Camanche Moon, etc, are them characters too.  I didn't even realize it 'til just this moment.  :D

Hey, if Larry and Diana could put these two fellers in different settings, different stories, different places......
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 23, 2010, 12:44:27 am
I just got through the 2-disc set of Larry McMurtry's Dead Man's Walk.  It wasn't until the very end that I realized it's the same characters from Lonesome Dove.  :D  :laugh:  I had only rented it because of Larry McMurtry and Diana Osana.  And I now also see that the movies I put in my Netflix queue, Streets of Laredo, Camanche Moon, etc, are them characters too.  I didn't even realize it 'til just this moment.  :D

Hey, if Larry and Diana could put these two fellers in different settings, different stories, different places......


Heya Eric!  Yes, it's a long, mult-book saga.  McMurtry wrote Lonesome Dove first, but the plot of LD does not come first in the flow of the narrative across the 4 books.  The narrative order is Dead Man's Walk, Comanche Moon, Lonesome Dove and finally Streets of Laredo.  With Dead Man's Walk you'll see Call and Gus just starting out, meeting for the first time, etc.

McMurtry really is quite a story teller.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: SFEnnisSF on January 23, 2010, 12:50:28 am

Heya Eric!  Yes, it's a long, mult-book saga.  McMurtry wrote Lonesome Dove first, but the plot of LD does not come first in the flow of the narrative across the 4 books.  The narrative order is Dead Man's Walk, Comanche Moon, Lonesome Dove and finally Streets of Laredo.  With Dead Man's Walk you'll see Call and Gus just starting out, meeting for the first time, etc.

McMurtry really is quite a story teller.




Ok good.  I've got the remainder in the queue for the proper order then.

1. Comanche Moon
2. Return to Lonesome Dove
3. Streets of Laredo
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on January 25, 2010, 09:51:41 pm
Last night whilst continuing my slow-read of Comanche Moon I made note of two more short quotations that seem interesting to think about in relation to BBM.  I don't think either of these are long enough or contain enough detail to really constitute spoilers.

"The two of them fell silent, looking across to Mexico.  Though they quarreled frequently, they were often tugged by the same impulses, and so it was at that moment by the slow river.  The longer they looked across it, the more strongly they felt the urge to attempt their mission alone - without cattle and without the other men.
"We could just do it Woodrow - the two of us," Augustus said." p. 444

...

"...[L]et's go to Mexico anyway," Augustus said.  "I'm restless.  Let's just saddle up and go tonight.  There's a fine moon."  p.445

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on January 25, 2010, 10:10:28 pm
There may be a small spoiler involved in this quotation... so if you don't want to know any specific details about CM... please don't read!

"...[H]e too had been friends with Long Bill for many years.  He had known several men who had lost limbs in battle; the men all claimed that they still felt things in the place where the limb had been.  It was natural enough, then, that with Bill suddenly gone he and Gus would continue to have some of the feelings that went with friendship, even though the friend was gone." (p. 394)

What a moving quote!!  :'(
Reminds me of The Virginian...you might enjoy that novel too. Despite its name, it's about Wyoming.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on February 17, 2010, 01:10:01 pm

Thanks Lee.  Yeah, there was a lot of really nice writing in Comanche Moon... and a lot that seemed to have strong resonance with BBM one way or another.

Anyway, I'm here to report that I finally finished CM after a long, slow reading process!  Yeehaw!!  And, in the end I really liked this book.  Some of it really was tough to read (in terms of the subject matter, etc.)... but it was very riveting.  And, I liked the pacing of this book a lot better than Dead Man's Walk.  I particularly liked the last third-or-so of the book.  I still like Lonesome Dove itself the best of the 3 I've read, but CM is a close second.

I'm totally fascinated to learn more about the history of the Comanche people after reading this book too. It's interesting to realize that there actually was a famous Comanche named Buffalo Hump, and that Quanah was also a real person.  It's interesting to wonder how much of this series touches on historical fiction more than just plain fiction.  I keep wondering how accurate McMurtry is being with his descriptions of Comanche life. I also find it interesting that McMurtry is so good at shifting first-person perspectives around from the various Texas Rangers, to the women in the Rangers' lives, and even to some of the male Native American characters... but he doesn't ever really seem to step into the shoes of the Native American women.  He describes them and what they're up to sometimes, but we don't see the situation through their eyes in the same way that we do with other catetgories of characters.

The end of the book is just so incredibly sad.  The encroachment of white settlers, slaughter of the buffalo and the younger generations of Comanches forgetting the old customs, methods of hunting/fighting, etc. is almost unbearably sad to think about.

I also thought the book ended really abruptly... maybe expecting the reader to jump right into the next book.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: mariez on February 18, 2010, 02:03:13 pm
Thanks Lee.  Yeah, there was a lot of really nice writing in Comanche Moon... and a lot that seemed to have strong resonance with BBM one way or another.

Anyway, I'm here to report that I finally finished CM after a long, slow reading process!  Yeehaw!!  And, in the end I really liked this book.  Some of it really was tough to read (in terms of the subject matter, etc.)... but it was very riveting.  And, I liked the pacing of this book a lot better than Dead Man's Walk.  I particularly liked the last third-or-so of the book.  I still like Lonesome Dove itself the best of the 3 I've read, but CM is a close second.

I'm totally fascinated to learn more about the history of the Comanche people after reading this book too. It's interesting to realize that there actually was a famous Comanche named Buffalo Hump, and that Quanah was also a real person.  It's interesting to wonder how much of this series touches on historical fiction more than just plain fiction.  I keep wondering how accurate McMurtry is being with his descriptions of Comanche life. I also find it interesting that McMurtry is so good at shifting first-person perspectives around from the various Texas Rangers, to the women in the Rangers' lives, and even to some of the male Native American characters... but he doesn't ever really seem to step into the shoes of the Native American women.  He describes them and what they're up to sometimes, but we don't see the situation through their eyes in the same way that we do with other catetgories of characters.

The end of the book is just so incredibly sad.  The encroachment of white settlers, slaughter of the buffalo and the younger generations of Comanches forgetting the old customs, methods of hunting/fighting, etc. is almost unbearably sad to think about.

I also thought the book ended really abruptly... maybe expecting the reader to jump right into the next book.


Thanks for the status report, Amanda.  :)  I'm glad you liked it and I agree with much of what you say.  McMurtry delved more into the Comanche perspective and history in this book and I really appreciated that. 

That's a very interesting observation that he doesn't ever step into the shoes of the Native American women in the same way he does with the other characters.  Even though it's been a while since I've read it, I remember that that is true.  One of the hallmarks of his writing is his strong characterizations of women, so that makes it even more curious.

And, yes, thinking about the fate of the Native Americans is heartbreaking.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on February 19, 2010, 10:46:57 am
Thanks for your review of Commache Moon, friend. I definitely want to read it at some point! I'm finishing up another novel by Larry McMurtry now called Telegraph Days. It's on the lightweight side.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: mariez on February 19, 2010, 01:09:17 pm
Thanks for your review of Commache Moon, friend. I definitely want to read it at some point! I'm finishing up another novel by Larry McMurtry now called Telegraph Days. It's on the lightweight side.

I read Telegraph Days a couple years ago - I'd love to hear your thoughts when you've finished!
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 23, 2010, 08:43:18 pm

Heya!
I'm posting here to report that I bought Streets of Laredo this weekend!  I feel compelled to finish the series.  I'm still in the midst of reading another book... but Streets of Laredo will be on deck soon!

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Ellemeno on May 27, 2010, 10:05:46 am
Hey A, When the Brokies were visiting me a couple of weeks ago, I got to point out the bookstore where you bought your first copy of Lonesome Dove!  I loved your visit that weekend.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 27, 2010, 03:31:35 pm
Hey A, When the Brokies were visiting me a couple of weeks ago, I got to point out the bookstore where you bought your first copy of Lonesome Dove!  I loved your visit that weekend.



Yay!  That was very fun indeed.  I love that I bought LD at a cool bookstore in good Brokie company!
 ;D

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on May 28, 2010, 04:53:38 pm
Earlier this afternoon I was feeling antsy at work, so I took a stroll over to the Natural History museum to check out their "Hall of American Indians" hoping to see some material related to the Comanches.  This is the first time that I've explored that part of the museum.   But, eventhough it's quite a large set of galleries, I couldn't find any objects related to the Comanches.  There were quite a number of objects related to the Crow tribe, which I found interesting... in light of a little bit of a connection to the L.D. series... and such a large amount of material related to the Lakota tribe (a branch of the Sioux mostly associated with the N. and S. Dakota area) that I wondered how/why so much of the material ended up here.  My hypothesis is that it might have to do with the fact that the Natural History museum has a long history of paleontology research and exploration in that area... so maybe there's a connection, but I have no idea if that's really the reason.  Anyway, there was an extensive display about buffaloes and the importance of buffalo skulls in a lot of different Native American communities.

Does anyone know the nuances and propriety involved in the terms "Native American" vs. "American Indian"?  I feel like in a lot of official contexts (museums, etc.) I see the term "American Indian" seeming to be the preferred reference.  For instance, the giant collection/ department at the Denver Art Museum is called "American Indian Art."

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on June 01, 2010, 10:37:01 pm
As I recall, friend, the term American Indian was in vogue up until the 1960s or so when it became more PC to call the tribes by their preferred term of Native American. There were protests, often taking place around Columbus Day, about this by Native Americans. It seems that when Columbus first landed in North America, he thought he had reached the Indian peninsula instead so that's why he called the indigenous peoples Indians.

I was listening to an interview with Robert Duvall tonight on Fresh Air where he said that his favorite roles were in the Godfather movies and Lonesome Dove.
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 01, 2010, 11:09:55 pm
As I recall, friend, the term American Indian was in vogue up until the 1960s or so when it became more PC to call the tribes by their preferred term of Native American. There were protests, often taking place around Columbus Day, about this by Native Americans. It seems that when Columbus first landed in North America, he thought he had reached the Indian peninsula instead so that's why he called the indigenous peoples Indians.


Hi Sister Mod!  Yes, I've always thought the same thing about the term "Indian"... which, is why I'm so surprised to encounter the term "American Indian" used in the context of at least two museums (Denver and the Natural History Museum here).  I'm sure that the curatorial departments in both places try to be as sensitive and current as possible... so it's kind of perplexing to me.  I guess in a way both terms "American Indian" and "Native American" imply colonization when you think about it, since even the word/concept "American" only came about as a result of European settlement and encroachment/ historical reference - and since neither term distinguishes the often very different tribes/nations.


Quote
 
I was listening to an interview with Robert Duvall tonight on Fresh Air where he said that his favorite roles were in the Godfather movies and Lonesome Dove.

He was so awesome as Gus.






**Spoiler**  I can't quite imagine how Streets of Laredo will be without Gus... he's such a vibrant, staple character.
Title: "See you for supper" and McMurtry
Post by: Brown Eyes on June 04, 2010, 01:16:12 am
Heya!  I was just reading Streets of Laredo before bed and discovered this little passage that kind of blew me away in terms of BBM relevance.  Things like this really make me curious about how much influence McMurtry had over certain BBM scenes... it really feels like he put his own major stamp on the interpretation of the story.  I wonder how much of an interesting back story there may be here in terms of the Proulx/McMurtry dynamic (rivalry, admiration... a combo of both).

"Pea Eye tried to think of something more to say, but failed.  He had never been a man of many words... Hundreds of Lorie's looks, like this one, left him baffled.

"See you for supper," he said, finally.

"If you don't show up, I'll know you changed your mind," Lorena said...

All the same, loping across the plains, he dreaded the meeting he was riding to. ..."

**possible spoilers**

This exchange reminds me so much (obviously in a different context) of the terse exchange between Ennis and Jack after TS1.  This is also a very crucial moment early in the book where Pea Eye is deciding whether or not to join up once again with Call to go on an extended mission to hunt down a bandit (a Mexican bandit)... which would leave his wife and children alone and vulnerable.


Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on June 06, 2010, 12:04:40 am
That's so touching. I really liked Pea-Eye. Lorena too!
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 05, 2010, 07:37:59 pm
Heya!  I have some more passages to quote from Streets of Laredo that struck me as BBM related as I read them.  There are some spoilers here so beware.

This one reminds me of the end of the dozy embrace when Ennis does not look back at Jack.  It also reminds me of Jack watching Ennis through the rear view mirror at the end of 63 summer.

"Doobie Plunkert stood at the back door of their little house and watched hopelessly as Ted and the old Captain and the fat little Yankee rode away.  She felt her heart breaking; she didn't think she would be able to endure the ache.  If Ted had just once turned in the saddle and waved at her, it would have made the ache a little easier to bear."

This on reminds me of Ennis's vivid dream from the short story.  It comes soon after the passage I just quoted above.

"That night, without him to hold her tight, she had many dreams, and tossed and turned... Doobie's dream was so vivid that she could even smell her husband, Ted Plunkert. He smelled of saddle soap... Smelling it in her dream made Doobie remember what a good man Ted was.... The best part of the dream, though, was that Ted not only smelled of saddle soap; Ted was there.  He snuck into the bedroom, as he always did when he came in late; he took off his boots... and climbed into bed to hold her tight, as she always hoped he would, not just for one night but throughout her whole life.  Doobie tried to stay in her dream, to hide in it, but she grew more and more restless; she began to have moments of wakefulness, began to suspect that her dream was just a dream... Despite herself , she woke, opened her eyes, and knew the worst immediately.  Ted Plunkert wasn't there."

Then this passage is about a different character.  I love the moon references and even the Brooklyn reference.

"In Brooklyn, in his work as a salaried man, Brookshire had never paid much attention to the moon... it hadn't mattered to him whether the moon was full, or just a sliver, or not there at all.
   Once they were on the black desert in Mexico, Brookshire saw that the Captain had been right.  The full moon, in the deep Mexican sky, was so bright that traveling was as easy as ti would have been in daylight.  Brookshire was still a salaried man, but he was also a manhunter now... He was heading into Texas with Captain Woodrow Call, and he would probably do well to start paying more attention to the moon."
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Brown Eyes on August 17, 2010, 03:04:05 pm

Heya!
I've been meaning to report here that I finally finished Streets of Laredo!  So, now I'm done with the full series.  Wow, that was quite an epic project.  I'm glad I read them all though.  There's no question that McMurtry is quite a talented storyteller.

Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on August 18, 2010, 08:56:41 am
What an achievement! I'm impressed, friend!
Title: Re: BBM and Lonesome Dove
Post by: Front-Ranger on April 13, 2013, 02:48:04 pm
I was just reading the moderately interesting essay about The Mystique of Lonesome Dove (http://fans-pages.com/the-mystique-of-lonesome-dove/) on Fans Pages, where there's a long list of movies, books, TV shows and the like that have separate pages. Alas, nothing for Brokeback Mountain so I sent in a request for them to add it.