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The World Beyond BetterMost => Women Today => Topic started by: serious crayons on March 12, 2009, 11:56:59 pm

Title: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: serious crayons on March 12, 2009, 11:56:59 pm
Please elaborate on your answer below. Why are you a feminist, or why not? What does the word "feminist" mean to you? What does a feminist stand for? Is it simply believing in equal opportunity for women, or is there more to it than that?

Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 13, 2009, 11:04:13 am

Heya!

Thanks for the poll K!  I, of course, voted that I am a feminist. 

I'll come back and elaborate later when I'm home from work!
 ;D

Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: Sophia on March 13, 2009, 01:21:50 pm

  Like the other 100% people that voted in this pole. I too consider myself a feminist. Why? I believe I am a person that wants some change. Being feminist is for me a person that wants change in society. And I do also think that feminist doesnt only mean equality between people and people, and between societys. It also means for me stand up for your rights, opinions and respect. And be a roll model in your way of acting in life.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 13, 2009, 07:56:59 pm
Heya,

OK, I'm home from work now and have time to elaborate a bit. :)

I've been thinking about this question a lot today.  And, my main response to the question "am I a feminist"... is that I can't really think of any reason why I wouldn't consider myself a feminist.  To me the term signifies an interest in basic, equal rights and fair treatment for women.  And, it seems to me that progress and improvements in women's rights, logically, also means improvements and better circumstances for men too. 

Also, I like to think of feminism as having a very deep history going back generations and even centuries.  I don't think of it as a phenomenon contained to or defined by the 60s and 70s era women's rights movement (although that is a part of feminist history, of course).  I went to two different women's colleges and my experiences there caused me to have a really deep, ingrained respect and interest in women's history.  The more you get into the intricacies of women's history and the long history of both men and women working for gender equality the more exciting the term feminist becomes.  I feel like embracing that term is a way of honoring all the people in history who have fought for women's rights and gender equality.

Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: mariez on March 14, 2009, 03:19:10 pm
Heya,

OK, I'm home from work now and have time to elaborate a bit. :)

I've been thinking about this question a lot today.  And, my main response to the question "am I a feminist"... is that I can't really think of any reason why I wouldn't consider of myself a feminist.  To me the term signifies an interest in basic, equal rights and fair treatment for women.  And, it seems to me that progress and improvements in women's rights, logically, also means improvements and better circumstances for men too. 

Also, I like to think of feminism as having a very deep history going back generations and even centuries.  I don't think of it as a phenomenon contained to or defined by the 60s and 70s era women's rights movement (although that is a part of feminist history, of course).  I went to two different women's colleges and my experiences there caused me to have a really deep, ingrained respect and interest in women's history.  The more you get into the intricacies of women's history and the long history of both men and women working for gender equality the more exciting the term feminist becomes.  I feel like embracing that term is a way of honoring all the people in history who have fought for women's rights and gender equality.

Well said, Amanda!  I especialy like your references to history and all the people in the past who made such a difference.  I would add that to me feminism is also about how women think of themselves and about not being pressured to conform to anyone else's standards or definitions of how they should live their lives. 
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: delalluvia on March 14, 2009, 03:21:29 pm
Yes, I am a feminist, a feminist of the old school who doesn't believe feminist is a bad word and am not afraid to say so.

It's sad that many women nowadays are afraid to be associated with the word or movement and like to pretend the rights they now enjoy didn't come at a very high price for women in the past (or indeed, currently).  Women are still breaking ground in the fight for equal rights and consideration and still being made to suffer for it.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 14, 2009, 03:27:47 pm
Well said, Amanda!  I especialy like your references to history and all the people in the past who made such a difference.  I would add that to me feminism is also about how women think of themselves and about not being pressured to conform to anyone else's standards or definitions of how they should live their lives. 

Thanks Marie!  And good point about the issue of autonomy/independence and a belief in individuality as being part of an understanding of a feminist identity.

Yes, I am a feminist, a feminist of the old school who doesn't believe feminist is a bad word and am not afraid to say so.

It's sad that many women nowadays are afraid to be associated with the word or movement and like to pretend the rights they now enjoy didn't come at a very high price for women in the past (or indeed, currently).  Women are still breaking ground in the fight for equal rights and consideration and still being made to suffer for it.

This is a good point too Bud!  I went to high school in the 1990s and I remember in different history and social studies classes, a lot of girls rejecting or feeling funny about the term "feminist" because of all the negative (and ultimately misogynist) stereotypes that sometimes have been projected onto the term "feminist."  I remember it was really depressing to hear young women rejecting that term.  Even back then I had a sense of pride in the term "feminist" (again, one of the factors that caused me to be interested in applying to and attending a women's college).

And, I also agree that it's important to recognize that there's still a lot of work to be done in terms of achieving gender equailty.  Sometimes, I think, there's a danger in some folks thinking that the battles are over and the progress has been made and finalized.  When you really look at conditions for women, really in almost all cultures around the world including the U.S., there really is still a lot to be done.

Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: Monika on March 14, 2009, 03:40:00 pm
Of course I´m a feminist.  :)
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: louisev on March 14, 2009, 04:13:47 pm
Looks like I'm the lone female dissenter here in the feminist question.

I am not a feminist because I do not believe in the rhetoric I have heard from feminist writers and intellectuals.  I believe in equal rights for women, but I do not believe this is a feminist stance but rather a humane one.  The risk that I see from the feminist intellectuals I have read is that there is a destructive component to feminism that sees men as inherently subjugating women, that society as a whole is geared toward subjugation and diminution.  I simply don't believe that.  I think that sex roles (I don't use the term "gender roles", gender to me is a grammatical term pressed into usage in recent times to mean sex) are taught, reinforced and advertised largely by women.  Men mostly benefit from them.   It is women who played the instrumental role in turning the clock back on the Equal Rights Amendment.  It is women, women like Phyllis Schlafly and most recently, Sarah Palin, who believe that there is some strength in maintaining outmoded "traditions" which involve restricting access to family planning information and birth control, limiting and outlawing abortion.  I do not believe that feminism addresses the fact that women, themselves, due to their own upbringing and their own determination to suppress progress and equal rights for women, particularly reproductive rights, are at the leading edge of the opposition to an equal society.  The real culprit in solving the issues of inequality, to me, lie not in feminism, but in a freedom from religious intolerance and imposing outmoded and extreme religious ideals on society, and on women in particular.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 14, 2009, 04:52:01 pm
Looks like I'm the lone female dissenter here in the feminist question.

I am not a feminist because I do not believe in the rhetoric I have heard from feminist writers and intellectuals.  I believe in equal rights for women, but I do not believe this is a feminist stance but rather a humane one.  The risk that I see from the feminist intellectuals I have read is that there is a destructive component to feminism that sees men as inherently subjugating women, that society as a whole is geared toward subjugation and diminution.  I simply don't believe that.  I think that sex roles (I don't use the term "gender roles", gender to me is a grammatical term pressed into usage in recent times to mean sex) are taught, reinforced and advertised largely by women.  Men mostly benefit from them.   It is women who played the instrumental role in turning the clock back on the Equal Rights Amendment.  It is women, women like Phyllis Schlafly and most recently, Sarah Palin, who believe that there is some strength in maintaining outmoded "traditions" which involve restricting access to family planning information and birth control, limiting and outlawing abortion.  I do not believe that feminism addresses the fact that women, themselves, due to their own upbringing and their own determination to suppress progress and equal rights for women, particularly reproductive rights, are at the leading edge of the opposition to an equal society.  The real culprit in solving the issues of inequality, to me, lie not in feminism, but in a freedom from religious intolerance and imposing outmoded and extreme religious ideals on society, and on women in particular.

Well, I think that one of the issues... that could be further elaborated here on this thread... is that there are many kinds of feminism.  So far the term has been used here in this thread quite broadly and generally.  But, I think that there are schools of feminist thought that critique the role women themselves have played in the subjugation of women.  Schlafly and Palin are clearly not feminists of any branch of feminism that I know about... though Schlafly and Palin certainly take full advantage of the rights, opportunities won for them by feminists of many different historical eras.  Like Schlafly and Palin, there are certainly women who, for whatever reason, don't feel compelled to worry about women's rights or somehow don't feel a sense of responsibility for working towards improved women's rights.  Situations like that are pretty baffling to me.... and frankly, quite depressing.  Perhaps, some women find it easier "to work with the patriarchy" rather than "against it" (so to speak).

As to the issue of "upbringing"... well, that, I think is a huge aspect of concern in terms of feminism.  How girls are raised and society expectations in terms of raising children in general, along gender lines is an ongoing source of interest and debate.  If a child's upbringing somehow leads them to a belief that it's OK for women to be second-class citizens, well, then that's a huge societal problem.  Critique of religion and traditional religious roles/constraints placed on both women and men seems to fit nicely with a feminist identity.   And FWIW, I certainly don't see the term "feminist" as limited to women... the term certainly applies to men who are interested in women's rights and gender equality too.

Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: louisev on March 14, 2009, 05:23:16 pm
I may have been misleading in what I said.  I cited Phyllis Schlafly and Sarah Palin as female leaders in providing negative examples and maintaining the subjugation of women.  I don't blame men for what is an "equal opportunity" campaign to maintain traditional disproportionate sex roles.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: serious crayons on March 14, 2009, 06:18:53 pm
Looks like I'm the lone female dissenter here in the feminist question.

I am not a feminist because I do not believe in the rhetoric I have heard from feminist writers and intellectuals.  I believe in equal rights for women, but I do not believe this is a feminist stance but rather a humane one.  The risk that I see from the feminist intellectuals I have read is that there is a destructive component to feminism that sees men as inherently subjugating women, that society as a whole is geared toward subjugation and diminution.  I simply don't believe that.  I think that sex roles (I don't use the term "gender roles", gender to me is a grammatical term pressed into usage in recent times to mean sex) are taught, reinforced and advertised largely by women.  Men mostly benefit from them.   It is women who played the instrumental role in turning the clock back on the Equal Rights Amendment.  It is women, women like Phyllis Schlafly and most recently, Sarah Palin, who believe that there is some strength in maintaining outmoded "traditions" which involve restricting access to family planning information and birth control, limiting and outlawing abortion.  I do not believe that feminism addresses the fact that women, themselves, due to their own upbringing and their own determination to suppress progress and equal rights for women, particularly reproductive rights, are at the leading edge of the opposition to an equal society.  The real culprit in solving the issues of inequality, to me, lie not in feminism, but in a freedom from religious intolerance and imposing outmoded and extreme religious ideals on society, and on women in particular.

Thanks for posting, Louise. I was hoping you would, because I think I saw you mention somewhere else recently that you're not a feminist, and I was curious about your reasons.

To me, anybody who believes in equal rights for women is by definition a feminist. That's the entire meaning of the term, for me. Now there are plenty of ideas some feminists hold which I don't share, but that doesn't keep me from continuing to define myself (or the women I disagree with, for that matter), as feminists.

For example, in the early '90s, the writer Katie Roiphe published The Morning After: Sex, Fear and Feminism, which argued that feminists exaggerate the extent of female victimization. Roiphe is a feminist, but she favors a feminism that sees women as powerful and strong rather than women as victims. Of course the two aren't mutually exclusive, and I don't agree with everything Roiphe said, but I found her message refreshing and I tend to lean that way myself. The book was quite controversial at the time, though.

Another big area of contention within feminism is the conflict between feminists who see differences between men and women as inherent, vs. feminists who consider them mostly the result of cultural conditioning.

And yet another is the question of whether traditional women's interests and activities are undervalued because they actually hold less value (explaining why women were pushed into them), or does society just consider them less valuable because women do them? Marge_innavera and I got into this debate a few months ago with regard to beauty contests. Are beauty contests inherently more trivial than football?

Anyway, not to get too far off track, because I wanted to address the other part of Louise's post. Yes, I think it is definitely true that women are often the ones who teach and enforce traditional sex roles. Just as in cultures that practice female circumcision, it's usually mothers and grandmothers who encourage and perform it. Women, like men, grow up absorbing the biases and assumptions of their cultures, and many continue to support them even when those biases tend to benefit men. I think it's possible to work to change those biases without blaming them exclusively on men. When I use the term "the patriarchy," it's usually with a certain degree of irony.



Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: brokeplex on March 14, 2009, 06:25:59 pm
Oh, good heavens! What a waste of time!

Women have had full equality under the law with men for decades in the US and the West in general - this is a been-there done-that thing.

Feminist activists need to concentrate their political actions in Muslim / Sharia dominated nations, where women are still second class citizens.  

But then maybe its just a whole lot easier and less risky to agitate in the US and the west, than concentrating on those areas that truly need to change their laws towards women.

So YES! I am a Saudi Feminist!

On Strike for Equal Rights in Saudi!

 (http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg232/brokeplex/natural%20feelings/Chaduri1.jpg)
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 14, 2009, 06:56:40 pm
I wish you were right, blokeplex, but sadly you are not. Discrimination against women is alive and growing even in the U.S. During the recent downturn, corporations have used "we need to remain competitive" as an excuse to weed out women, older employees, and minorities.

The pendulum has swung back too far the other way. The latest generation coming up, those who are turning 21 now, are unaware of the fight our sisters and mothers have fought. Too many of them aspire to be housewives and nothing more.

Also under siege are rights for poor women in the U.S. and worldwide. Child care and basic medical care are being cut right and left. There is a movement to turn public hospitals into religious-based hospitals so that poor women will be deprived of the special services they need.

I read an article in the Wall St Journal today praising the "underground economy" for giving poor women in countries like India better opportunities. So a woman who worked at a factory but lost her job now works at a makeshift roadside stand selling "medicinal wine." She makes $3 more per day than she did at the factory. She makes $10 per day. And this is a good thing???
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: serious crayons on March 14, 2009, 07:02:29 pm
Oh, good heavens! What a waste of time!

Thanks, brokeplex, for illustrating so perfectly the importance of a strong feminist movement and for providing a reminder that women's progress is far from complete here.

Quote
Women have had full equality under the law with men for decades in the US and the West in general

Once again, you are pretending to think that laws thoroughly control all behavior, attitudes, choices, human interaction and private activities. That is, I think you're pretending. You are pretending, right brokeplex? Surely you can't really believe it.

Quote
Feminist activists need to concentrate their political actions in Muslim / Sharia dominated nations, where women are still second class citizens.

How odd! You phrase this as if you don't realize this is already being done, by Western feminists as well as feminists who grew up and/or live in in those places.

Quote
But then maybe its just a whole lot easier and less risky to agitate in the US and the west, than concentrating on those areas that truly need to change their laws towards women.


You seem not to realize that being a feminist does not require one to "agitate" anywhere at all. Feminist and agitator are two different things, brokeplex. I'm a feminist, but frankly I'm not much of a political activist, let alone an "agitator."

You seem to see the word "feminist" as resembling "militant" or "activist" some other term that assumes an activity component. In fact, feminist is more like "Christian" or "agnostic" or "conservative" or "liberal" -- it's simply a description of one's beliefs.


Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 14, 2009, 07:30:42 pm
I wish you were right, blokeplex, but sadly you are not. Discrimination against women is alive and growing even in the U.S. During the recent downturn, corporations have used "we need to remain competitive" as an excuse to weed out women, older employees, and minorities.

The pendulum has swung back too far the other way. The latest generation coming up, those who are turning 21 now, are unaware of the fight our sisters and mothers have fought. Too many of them aspire to be housewives and nothing more.

Also under siege are rights for poor women in the U.S. and worldwide. Child care and basic medical care are being cut right and left. There is a movement to turn public hospitals into religious-based hospitals so that poor women will be deprived of the special services they need.

I read an article in the Wall St Journal today praising the "underground economy" for giving poor women in countries like India better opportunities. So a woman who worked at a factory but lost her job now works at a makeshift roadside stand selling "medicinal wine." She makes $3 more per day than she did at the factory. She makes $10 per day. And this is a good thing???

Hi Lee!!  It's so great to see you here on this thread Bud! :)  I agree that there's still a lot of work to be done, and that progress in terms of women's rights is often one step forward and two steps back, in terms of pendulums swinging, trends reversing, and people taking things for granted.  Yes, as far as the younger generation of folks coming up, it really is important to not take things for granted and to remember that guarding hard-won rights and equality is as important as fighting for yet-to-be truly realized rights, such as equal pay.

How odd! You phrase this as if you don't realize this is already being done, by Western feminists as well as feminists who grew up and/or live in in those places.


And, K, I think this is an excellent point.  There are organized groups as well as individual women (and men) risking their lives in places like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan trying to protect women and fight for women's most basic rights.  The obstacles there are tremendous, but that doesn't mean that there aren't still challenges in very different cultures such as the U.S.  A concern for one doesn't at all negate a concern for the other.

And, K, is right that it doesn't always come down simply to laws.  In the U.S., there are cultural forces at work that are concerns for feminists too.  To cite two somewhat random issues that come to mind... the huge societal pressures surrounding body image (leading to eating disorders and major self-esteem issues)... and violence issues (domestic violence, date rape, etc.) that involve cultural change and major changes in societal attitudes to combat and try to resolve.  In regards to issues like domestic and sexual violence, yes, laws and the justice system are factors... but there are much more intricate social issues and attitudes at work in dealing with problems like that as well.



Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: serious crayons on March 14, 2009, 07:41:24 pm
And, K, is right that it doesn't always come down simply to laws.  In the U.S., there are cultural forces at work that are concerns for feminists too.  To cite two somewhat random issues that come to mind... the huge societal pressures surrounding body image (leading to eating disorders and major self-esteem issues)... and violence issues (domestic violence, date rape, etc.) that involve cultural change and major changes in societal attitudes to combat and try to resolve.  In regards to issues like domestic and sexual violence, yes, laws and the justice system are factors... but there are much more intricate social issues and attitudes at work in dealing with problems like that as well.

Good point, A. Another one: domestic work and caregiving. Women, even in Western cultures, do far far more of domestic labor and caring for children and old people. This type of work comes without pay or Social Security benefits, and limits women's ability to perform work that does pay. There are no laws addressing this issue.

Even issues that ARE addressed by law are often not resolved with laws. For instance, even it it's illegal to hire or promote on the basis of gender, it's often nearly impossible to discover and/or prove that it's happening.

Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: brokeplex on March 14, 2009, 07:45:53 pm
I wish you were right, blokeplex, but sadly you are not. Discrimination against women is alive and growing even in the U.S. During the recent downturn, corporations have used "we need to remain competitive" as an excuse to weed out women, older employees, and minorities.

The pendulum has swung back too far the other way. The latest generation coming up, those who are turning 21 now, are unaware of the fight our sisters and mothers have fought. Too many of them aspire to be housewives and nothing more.

Also under siege are rights for poor women in the U.S. and worldwide. Child care and basic medical care are being cut right and left. There is a movement to turn public hospitals into religious-based hospitals so that poor women will be deprived of the special services they need.

I read an article in the Wall St Journal today praising the "underground economy" for giving poor women in countries like India better opportunities. So a woman who worked at a factory but lost her job now works at a makeshift roadside stand selling "medicinal wine." She makes $3 more per day than she did at the factory. She makes $10 per day. And this is a good thing???

Ranger, you must be exaggerating! I don't care what aspect of US society you wish to discuss, women are superachievers!

Politics - do I really have to remind everyone that the Speaker of the House and the Secretary of State are women

Communications - what is the ratio of women to men anchors, reporters, columnists? women are everywhere in the industry

Academia - women are much more than a few token Deans, Chancellors, University Presidents - look at the ratio of men to women in academia and a case can be made that MEN are being discriminated against.

see : http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200005/war-against-boys

The War Against Boys

This we think we know: American schools favor boys and grind down girls. The truth is the very opposite. By virtually every measure, girls are thriving in school; it is boys who are the second sex
by Christina Hoff Sommers


Arts - there are WAY more than a few token female museum directors and curators, symphony conductors, pop artists, C&W artists

In the writing "team" of Proulx, Ossana and McMurtry - I think that is a 2:1 ratio in favor of women

Business - there are numerous CEO's that are women, and there are more female entrepreneurial startups each and every year, than male startups.

and this can go on and on, as US society has completely changed from my grandmother's day, when it was very rare indeed to find women in places of accomplishment.

now lets visit that Islamic world, there you have a great case that women are brutally subjugated.

Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: delalluvia on March 14, 2009, 07:51:40 pm
You all responded to Bill's post much better than I could have.  I agree with ya'll.  Discrimination against women is definitely not over and dead in this country.

Heck, all I have to do is look around me at work.  We have several 50+ year old women, they are obese grandmothers and not much to look at, but they are workaholics, know their jobs inside and out, are very people-oriented and when the promotions came - who got them?

The prettiest women in our area - 30 plus years younger than these women - and the men these older women trained.

Not sure what kind of discrimination was going on there, but there certainly was.

Quote
And yet another is the question of whether traditional women's interests and activities are undervalued because they actually hold less value (explaining why women were pushed into them), or does society just consider them less valuable because women do them? Marge_innavera and I got into this debate a few months ago with regard to beauty contests. Are beauty contests inherently more trivial than football?

IMO it's because women are doing it.  I can't recall where I read this, but in some area in Africa, no matter who was doing what, if the men were doing it, it was higher status. 

e.g. in one tribe, the women did all the making of pottery.  They got no status for it.  In another tribe, the men did all the making of pottery and they were held up as leaders of the tribe.  In another tribe, if women did the weaving, it was a low status drudge job.  If the men did it, it was an art form.  In tribes where men do the fieldwork, they are the farmers and breadwinners, in other tribes where the fieldwork is done primarily by women, it's a drudge job only fit for women, because men have the leisure to hold the important clan and political roles.

Sorta along the lines of women are cooks, men are chefs. 
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: delalluvia on March 14, 2009, 07:56:13 pm
Ranger, you must be exaggerating! I don't care what aspect of US society you wish to discuss, women are superachievers!

Politics - do I really have to remind everyone that the Speaker of the House and the Secretary of State are women

Communications - what is the ratio of women to men anchors, reporters, columnists? women are everywhere in the industry

Academia - women are much more than a few token Deans, Chancellors, University Presidents - look at the ratio of men to women in academia and a case can be made that MEN are being discriminated against.

see : http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200005/war-against-boys

The War Against Boys

This we think we know: American schools favor boys and grind down girls. The truth is the very opposite. By virtually every measure, girls are thriving in school; it is boys who are the second sex
by Christina Hoff Sommers


Arts - there are WAY more than a few token female museum directors and curators, symphony conductors, pop artists, C&W artists

In the writing "team" of Proulx, Ossana and McMurtry - I think that is a 2:1 ratio in favor of women

Business - there are numerous CEO's that are women, and there are more female entrepreneurial startups each and every year, than male startups.

and this can go on and on, as US society has completely changed from my grandmother's day, when it was very rare indeed to find women in places of accomplishment.

now lets visit that Islamic world, there you have a great case that women are brutally subjugated.



Bill just because we're not at the level of Islam, doesn't mean there is no discrimination worth fighting.  You're a gay man, do you think gay people in this country are just whining?  Equal rights is over and done!  Heck, there was a gay president.  There are gay men all over Hollywood and the arts.  Gay people can have civil unions and marriages.  They can be out in most all areas.  Now let's visit the Islamic world where you really have a case of brutal subjugation of gay people...
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: brokeplex on March 14, 2009, 08:03:01 pm
Bill just because we're not at the level of Islam, doesn't mean there is no discrimination worth fighting.  You're a gay man, do you think gay people in this country are just whining?  Equal rights is over and done!  Heck, there was a gay president.  There are gay men all over Hollywood and the arts.  Gay people can have civil unions and marriages.  They can be out in most all areas.  Now let's visit the Islamic world where you really have a case of brutal subjugation of gay people...

Del, there is a quantum difference between the status of straight women and the status of Lesbians in the US. Or straight women and gay men in the US.

Your conflating comparison is so disturbing that I am hesitant to even take the time to list how different the status of straight women is to gay men or Lesbians - I must assume that you are joking, and just move on.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: delalluvia on March 14, 2009, 08:19:48 pm
Del, there is a quantum difference between the status of straight women and the status of Lesbians in the US. Or straight women and gay men in the US.

Your conflating comparison is so disturbing that I am hesitant to even take the time to list how different the status of straight women is to gay men or Lesbians - I must assume that you are joking, and just move on.

The problem Bill is we're not conflating anything.  You saw or heard about the movie "North Country"?  Based on a true story.  In America.  In the 1970's.  The lawsuit by the women in the true situation was filed in 1984.  It was finally settled in 1998.  Yet you claim discrimination against women in our country is over and done.  Untrue.  So your claim can be seen as disturbingly dismissive of what women like Lois Jenson go through in this country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenson_v._Eveleth_Taconite_Co.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 14, 2009, 09:45:47 pm

Arts - there are WAY more than a few token female museum directors and curators, symphony conductors, pop artists, C&W artists

In the writing "team" of Proulx, Ossana and McMurtry - I think that is a 2:1 ratio in favor of women

Business - there are numerous CEO's that are women, and there are more female entrepreneurial startups each and every year, than male startups.
About the writing team of Proulx, Ossana, and McMurtry...which one got the Oscar?

Regarding women CEOs...I challenge you to name even 10 female CEOs in the Fortune 500!

and this can go on and on, as US society has completely changed from my grandmother's day, when it was very rare indeed to find women in places of accomplishment.

now lets visit that Islamic world, there you have a great case that women are brutally subjugated.
Maybe things have changed among the places of accomplishment. But, what about the everyday world of poor women? Women are still pretty much in the same place they've been for 20, 30, 50 years. Supplying cheap or free entertainment for men via coerced sex, and they have to pay the ultimate price...children and the continued cycle of poverty.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: Ellemeno on March 14, 2009, 11:43:06 pm
Of course I´m a feminist.  :)


What buffymon said.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: brokeplex on March 15, 2009, 09:36:15 pm
About the writing team of Proulx, Ossana, and McMurtry...which one got the Oscar?

Regarding women CEOs...I challenge you to name even 10 female CEOs in the Fortune 500!
Maybe things have changed among the places of accomplishment. But, what about the everyday world of poor women? Women are still pretty much in the same place they've been for 20, 30, 50 years. Supplying cheap or free entertainment for men via coerced sex, and they have to pay the ultimate price...children and the continued cycle of poverty.

I am not going to browse google looking for female CEO's, when we all know that they exist.

On second thought yes I am, as I am tired of hearing the Feminist party line on the "glass ceiling" go uncontested. And as I am also equally tired of hearing the Feminist party line about how women "suffer in the educational system" go uncontested, so I will link again to "The War Against Boys"

Women CEOs for FORTUNE 500 companies
There are more women running FORTUNE 500 companies this year than there were last year. Currently, 10 FORTUNE 500 companies are run by women* (up from 9 last year), and a total of 20 FORTUNE 1000 companies have women in the top job (up from 19).
CEO Company Rank
Claire Babrowski  RadioShack  423 
Brenda C. Barnes  Sara Lee  111 
Dorrit J. Bern  Charming Shoppes  641 
Mary E. Burton  Zale  715 
Patricia Gallup  PC Connection  992 
Susan M. Ivey  Reynolds American  280 
Andrea Jung  Avon Products  281 
Kay Krill  AnnTaylor Stores  786 
Linda A. Lang  Jack in the Box  692 
Kathleen A. Ligocki  Tower Automotive  551 
Anne Mulcahy  Xerox  142 
Janet L. Robinson  New York Times  557 
Paula G. Rosput Reynolds  Safeco  339 
Patricia F. Russo  Lucent Technologies  255 
Mary F. Sammons  Rite Aid  129 
Marion O. Sandler  Golden West Financial  326 
Stephanie A. Streeter  Banta  940 
Margaret C. Whitman  eBay  458 
Mary Agnes Wilderotter  Citizens Communications  768 
Dona Davis Young  Phoenix  666

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/womenceos/


________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This we think we know: American schools favor boys and grind down girls. The truth is the very opposite. By virtually every measure, girls are thriving in school; it is boys who are the second sex

by Christina Hoff Sommers

The War Against Boys

It's a bad time to be a boy in America. The triumphant victory of the U.S. women's soccer team at the World Cup last summer has come to symbolize the spirit of American girls. The shooting at Columbine High last spring might be said to symbolize the spirit of American boys.

That boys are in disrepute is not accidental. For many years women's groups have complained that boys benefit from a school system that favors them and is biased against girls. "Schools shortchange girls," declares the American Association of University Women. Girls are "undergoing a kind of psychological foot-binding," two prominent educational psychologists say. A stream of books and pamphlets cite research showing not only that boys are classroom favorites but also that they are given to schoolyard violence and sexual harassment.

In the view that has prevailed in American education over the past decade, boys are resented, both as the unfairly privileged sex and as obstacles on the path to gender justice for girls. This perspective is promoted in schools of education, and many a teacher now feels that girls need and deserve special indemnifying consideration. "It is really clear that boys are Number One in this society and in most of the world," says Patricia O'Reilly, a professor of education and the director of the Gender Equity Center, at the University of Cincinnati.

The idea that schools and society grind girls down has given rise to an array of laws and policies intended to curtail the advantage boys have and to redress the harm done to girls. That girls are treated as the second sex in school and consequently suffer, that boys are accorded privileges and consequently benefit—these are things everyone is presumed to know. But they are not true.  

n.b. this article in the Atlantic is 4 pps long, to read it in its entire (not that I expect doctrinaire victimized feminists to do so, but there are some men on this site WHO WILL READ IT AND NEED TO READ IT) go to :

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200005/war-against-boys

(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg232/brokeplex/natural%20feelings/boygirl.jpg)

_________________________________________________________________

Wasn't there a 2005 Oscar given best "screenplay"? And wouldn't the award have been given to both Ossana and McMurtry? Proulx did not write the screenplay, so she would not have been considered.

The world  of "poor women". IMO I think that to offer FACTUAL REFERENCED information about how "women" are being used for "coerced"? sex is a bit more useful than subjective unreferenced hearsay. I would suggest that information about the widespread family planning assistance and public welfare assistance that is being offered to those same single mothers might also be important.

And could there POSSIBLY be a correlation between FREE FOOD + FREE HOUSING + FREE MEDICAL CARE  AND MORE BABIES?

As far as men knocking the women up and abandoning them when they get pregnant and refusing to help support the kids, I suggest prison farm vacations for those men - work and work under the careful supervision of the prison system in order to pay for their children's support.

I think the link between poor education, babies and poverty is well known. If some women are choosing to follow that foolish route, then how is that anyone's fault but their own? We make our own choices in life, and coloring everyone with victimhood crayolas certainly doesn't solve the problem of poverty. It it did, it would have worked long ago, in Lyndon Johnsons' "War on Poverty" in the 1960's. Since then we have taxed producing working people to the tune of TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS in order to support what has essentially become a class self perpetuating baby factories - a permanent underclass of nonproducing people. I think that it is time to change tactics.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: serious crayons on March 16, 2009, 12:03:15 am
Women CEOs for FORTUNE 500 companies
There are more women running FORTUNE 500 companies this year than there were last year. Currently, 10 FORTUNE 500 companies are run by women* (up from 9 last year), and a total of 20 FORTUNE 1000 companies have women in the top job (up from 19).

Wow, I went and googled, copied and was ready to paste the above paragraph as a rebuttal to your post, before I noticed that my rebuttal was actually already contained in your post!

Um ... 10 out of 500 CEOs? 20 out of 1000?

That's two percent, BTW.

And brokeplex, I'm already anticipating your response, about women choosing not to become CEOs or somesuch. Don't bother.


But I'd rather this thread not devolve into a debate on whether or not women already have achieved full equal rights. That seems like a good topic, though perhaps deserving of a whole thread of its own. I'd rather discuss whether people consider themselves feminists or, if they reject that label, why. Especially if they believe that women SHOULD have equal rights.

For example, brokeplex has not said anything to indicate he doesn't think women should have equal rights. And yet he does not consider himself a feminist. To me, that's contradictory. If you believe the first, you're automatically the second, IMO.

Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 16, 2009, 09:35:11 am


I also wanted to add, that there seems to be a misperception that feminism has something to do with women/girls gaining rights or social stature at the expense of men/boys (as the posting of the "War on Boys" article suggests).

Feminism is about a goal of equal rights.   And, the phrase that's often used, "gender equality", means just that... balance and fairness.  It's not a game of winning and losing. 

Social dynamics inevitably do shift for men as progress is made in women's rights (in whatever given culture being considered).  The hope would be that the shifts and changes would be positive for men as well as for women.  It might/does involve sharing power, and divying up roles, jobs, etc. in different ways and ways that might seem new to men. 

But, feminism is not about girls getting a better education than boys.  Or women taking all the jobs away from men. Etc.  It's about getting an equal education and having a chance at the same types of jobs.

In terms of education and, perhaps especially things like sports there's still a lot of work to be done to improve things for girls. The fight for women's education has been very long and difficult over numerous generations.

 

Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: louisev on March 16, 2009, 04:15:56 pm
Considering that 51% of the US population is female, the astonishing revelation that there are 10 CEO's in the Fortune 500 who are women is a travesty, not a proof of opportunities for women.

And I don't really understand how anyone can maintain with a straight face that single women with children get automatic health care and support.  Maybe you need to update your information.  There are very nearly 50 MILLION Americans without any health care benefits at ALL.  Of the now-state-managed TANF (Temporary Aid to Needy Families) program, there are only 13 million families nationwide receiving assistance.  Does anyone here seriously believe that all of the disadvantaged single-mother-headed families receive public aid?  This would be a joke, if it weren't so tragically sad that anyone can be so ignorant of the real situation of the poor in this country.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: Monika on March 16, 2009, 04:16:54 pm
I assume this is not a serious post.

but, just in case....it's somewhat hard not to be sarcastic. "what about the everyday world of poor women"? What about the everyday world of poor men? How about the everyday world of poor people? The overt sexism of this post is exemplory of the nature of feminism--focus only on women and the rest of the humankind are irrelevant.

 


...yes feminism tend to focus on....females

just like black civil right groups tend to focus on...black people


and etc etc


it´s really not that complicated
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: serious crayons on March 16, 2009, 04:24:12 pm
What a sexist thing to say! Is that the 'with us or against us' position that has appeared fairly promient in the feminist agenda?

I don't know that it's "with us or against us" so much as it is simply how I define the term "feminist." Why, how do you define it? You sure seem to know a lot about feminism, so I'll be interested in hearing what you think it means.


Quote
If supporting equal rights and not being a feminist is a contradiction, then I would like to know if you support equal rights for men, and if so, are you a masculinist?

Of course I support equal rights for men. If that makes me a masculinist -- a word I've never heard, but oh well -- then that's just fine by me.


Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: louisev on March 16, 2009, 04:46:05 pm


the joke is the boloney that is being posted here. Are you at all aware, that almost 30% of "single parent" households are headed by men who receive only a fraction of what single mothers get in terms of aid? In fact, most single dad homes get no assistance whatsoever.

the aid is overwhelmingly skewed to women. Anyone denying that fact is like a holocaust denier; simply blind and abusively so.

Dead wrong here, Kaiser.

There was a dramatic increase in single-parent families in the United States in the last three decades of the twentieth century; only 13 percent of families were headed by a single parent in 1970. Over one-fourth of children in the United States lived with a single parent in 1996, double the proportion in 1970. Approximately 84 percent of these families are headed by women. Of all single-parent families, the most common are those headed by divorced or separated mothers (58%) followed by never-married mothers (24%).  Other family heads include widows (7%), divorced and separated fathers (8.4%), never-married fathers (1.5%), and widowers (0.9%). There is racial variation in the proportion of families headed by a single parent: 22 percent for white, 57 percent for black, and 33 percent for Hispanic families.

http://family.jrank.org/pages/1574/Single-Parent-Families-Demographic-Trends.html (http://family.jrank.org/pages/1574/Single-Parent-Families-Demographic-Trends.html)

58 plus 24 plus 7 = 89% of single parent families headed by women.  Overwhelming majority.  And I would really like to see your evidence that somehow single fathers are discriminated against in the public aid sector?  Are you sure they are simply not eligible for aid because they work full time and make more money than single mothers with children?  Or is it that they aren't custodial parents?  Single parent heads of households have to actually be custodial parents to qualify for family aid under the new "slimmer" welfare benefits of the modern era.

Reality, not denial, and certainly not "Holocaust denial."  IF you want to argue facts, then produce facts.

Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: louisev on March 16, 2009, 05:21:59 pm
And both of these articles are from 2001 - wow that's so much more up to date!

And that one states pretty clearly:

Single-father households still constitute only a small percentage of the overall picture. Married couples with children made up 24 percent of all households -- compared to 39 percent in 1970. Single-mother households represented 7 percent in 2000, up from 5 percent over 30 years ago.

Looked at another way, single-father homes made up 3 percent of the country's 71 million family households in 2000. Family households are those in which one or more people are related to the householder.


It still shows that single-mother led households are 7% vs. 3% of single-father led households.
  And even 24% is a significant minority of single parent families.  There is no 30%.


Your more controversial point about father's getting a "fraction of the aid" is not addressed in either article.  Where do you get this information?

Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: louisev on March 16, 2009, 05:30:54 pm

The point health care benefits is totally wrong; the poster mistakenly refers to health care benefits rather than insurance; very different items. health care benefits are available for those in need. anyone unaware of this is simply out of touch. Of the many who do not have health insurance, most are males and many opt out of the insurance game becaue they choose to spend their cash elsewhere.

er, no.  Health care benefits are not available to anyone in need in the USA.  Health care is available ONLY on an emergency basis to indigent (i.e. penniless) persons ONLY at public hospitals, in the case of critical need.  Not at doctor's offices.  Not at dentist's offices, and not at private hospitals.  So the BEST that could be said is that for the poor, and the uninsured without funds, only limited emergency care is available.  To say that a person without health insurance and without money can walk into a doctor's office and receive care in the USA - is out of touch.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: brokeplex on March 16, 2009, 05:33:12 pm
Wow, I went and googled, copied and was ready to paste the above paragraph as a rebuttal to your post, before I noticed that my rebuttal was actually already contained in your post!

Um ... 10 out of 500 CEOs? 20 out of 1000?

That's two percent, BTW.

And brokeplex, I'm already anticipating your response, about women choosing not to become CEOs or somesuch. Don't bother.


But I'd rather this thread not devolve into a debate on whether or not women already have achieved full equal rights. That seems like a good topic, though perhaps deserving of a whole thread of its own. I'd rather discuss whether people consider themselves feminists or, if they reject that label, why. Especially if they believe that women SHOULD have equal rights.

For example, brokeplex has not said anything to indicate he doesn't think women should have equal rights. And yet he does not consider himself a feminist. To me, that's contradictory. If you believe the first, you're automatically the second, IMO.



I responded to this challenge:

"Regarding women CEOs...I challenge you to name even 10 female CEOs in the Fortune 500!"

Of course women should and do have equal rights, except where they have more rights than men, such as in abortion decisions.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: serious crayons on March 16, 2009, 05:34:41 pm
I responded to this challenge:

"Regarding women CEOs...I challenge you to name even 10 female CEOs in the Fortune 500!"

LOL, they should have said 11.


Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: brokeplex on March 16, 2009, 05:38:30 pm
I assume this is not a serious post.

but, just in case....it's somewhat hard not to be sarcastic. "what about the everyday world of poor women"? What about the everyday world of poor men? How about the everyday world of poor people? The overt sexism of this post is exemplory of the nature of feminism--focus only on women and the rest of the humankind are irrelevant.

Poor men, just so you know, have been and continue to be in a worse position than poor women. There are no social welfare programs specifically targeted to aid men; it nearly all goes to women and children. That is largely why the "homeless" that are visible on the street are overwhelmingly men; women and children are the ones who are attended to for shelter, food and housing first. And there is little left for the men.

As for "cheap entertainment via sex" for the enjoyment of men being poor women's only lot in life, once again, such a riduculous comment it can hardly even be classified as a comment; it's only a jibe. Even when poor women end up with kids and no husband to support her (I wonder who's to blame on that score?), they receive health care and food and shelter while the poor man or men in her life scour the garbage cans.

So, the claim that women are not fairly represented in the work force at every level is wrong and the claim that poor women remain disadvantaged because of their gender versus poor men is wrong as well. All women's ships rose with the feminist tide.



I agree, and I hope that I am not putting word in your mouth, but here goes.

IMO Feminism has devolved into Sexism on a greedy quest for power grabbing.

Feminism in the days of my great grandmother and aunts, who were a Suffragettes, was about equal rights under the law, but in 2008 it is just a reflection of yet another identity group demanding a guaranteed piece of the pie. And this fits into the whole framework of identity politics pioneered by late 20th century feminists.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: brokeplex on March 16, 2009, 05:41:21 pm
What a sexist thing to say! Is that the 'with us or against us' position that has appeared fairly promient in the feminist agenda?

If supporting equal rights and not being a feminist is a contradiction, then I would like to know if you support equal rights for men, and if so, are you a masculinist?

so Feminism is just advocacy of equal rights? nope, that is not the way that hand has been played out over the past decades.

unless Feminists are following the dictates of "Animal Farm" equality, such as:

 "all are equal, but some are more equal than others if they can belly ache loudly enough to join the victimhood brigade"
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: louisev on March 16, 2009, 05:53:36 pm
I can't believe I'm doing this but I am finding myself in partial agreement with Brokeplex here on the recasting of "feminism" as "advocacy of equal rights."  I'm afraid this just simply isn't true. IF it were, I would have become a feminist back in the 1970's.

Feminism has a great deal more to it than that, and while I will concede to those who have been on the inside that feminism is not a monolithic "Feminist Party" with a platform, the NOW certainly has a platform, and when I was approached by members of NOW with a picture of Thelma and Louise on a button, I recoiled in horror.  I was baffled into silence as to why a women's rights organization would ever see Thelma and Louise from the eponymous film as some sort of heroines of the feminist movement.  They were KILLERS for Chrissakes.  I walked away from the NOW recruitment table and have stayed away from them ever since.  

While their platform does state "equal rights and participation of women in all walks of life", which I certainly agree with, I have never agreed with the rhetoric, the advocacy of a third party,

Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: louisev on March 16, 2009, 05:55:18 pm
Just so you know, the "current" census is 2000, from which my data was taken. your attempt to use 1990 census data and make an incorrect point, was noted as a ploy and subversive tactic. Shame, shame.

The "trend" is likely continuing since 2000, so the 24% of father-only households in 2000 is by many estimates that "almost 30%" of father-only single parent households is a valid statement.

I didn't "attempt to use 1990 census data."  I used the only data I could find in a google search of 'single-parent demographics."  But conceding the fact that single-parent families headed by a male have gone up, you have not yet, after three requests, provided evidence of these male single parents being discriminated against in seeking public aid which is being funneled in some manner to the single mothers. 
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: serious crayons on March 16, 2009, 07:19:35 pm
I can't believe I'm doing this but I am finding myself in partial agreement with Brokeplex here

Wow, there is really something strange going on around here today.  :laugh:

Quote
 I was baffled into silence as to why a women's rights organization would ever see Thelma and Louise from the eponymous film as some sort of heroines of the feminist movement.  They were KILLERS for Chrissakes.

Maybe they felt that women have an equal right to murder, homicide being an area in which women are vastly underrepresented.  ;)

No, seriously I understand your recoiling from identifying with killers. When Thelma and Louise came out (and La Femme Nikita, at about that same time) I wrote a lifestyle feature about this very topic. I think some feminists just got carried away with the novelty of women playing active, even violent figures, for a change. (Little did they realize that the stock movie character would soon prove common, albeit evolving into a scantily-clad fantasy figure for men.)

I don't see feminism and NOW as synonymous at all. I've always been a feminist, never belonged to NOW.

So let me ask -- not just Louise but anyone who considers feminism as something more than a simple belief in equal rights for women -- what else do you consider it to be? Nobody has been very specific about that -- brokeplex's "greedy quest for power grabbing" is about the closest, but isn't very concrete.




 I walked away from the NOW recruitment table and have stayed away from them ever since.  

While their platform does state "equal rights and participation of women in all walks of life", which I certainly agree with, I have never agreed with the rhetoric, the advocacy of a third party,


[/quote]
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: delalluvia on March 16, 2009, 07:41:08 pm
It's been a long time since I've seen the movie, but as I recall, wasn't the only man Thelma ever killed was a would be rapist, only held back at gunpoint?
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: delalluvia on March 16, 2009, 07:43:26 pm
er, no.  Health care benefits are not available to anyone in need in the USA.  Health care is available ONLY on an emergency basis to indigent (i.e. penniless) persons ONLY at public hospitals, in the case of critical need.  Not at doctor's offices.  Not at dentist's offices, and not at private hospitals.  So the BEST that could be said is that for the poor, and the uninsured without funds, only limited emergency care is available.  To say that a person without health insurance and without money can walk into a doctor's office and receive care in the USA - is out of touch.

Yep.  If you're a single person, with no job, no income, not pregnant (I and another female friend of mine were college students) and needing specialized medical care, you can go jump off a bridge as far as government health care is concerned.  You don't qualify for any medical care.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: delalluvia on March 16, 2009, 07:54:45 pm
Ever heard of the ER? Most universities have student infirmaries. I do not know what you mean by "specialized" medical care, but even if one is insured, one is not guaranteed "special" procedures.

Yes, I have head of them.  The university medical staff is who recommended I see a neurologist because my painful nerve disorder was not something they had the facilities to test for, diagnose and treat.

That's where my medical treatment stopped.

My friend had to have a stone removed.  The university hospital couldn't treat that either. 

Quote
IE, a single person, if not a student, is supposed to get a job and buy insurance either directly or via his/her employer. Can we spell "responsibility"?

Yep.  However, I wasn't employed.  Hence, full-time college student.  And also you do realize there is a waiting period for insurance when you first get employed *and* insurance companies are pretty chintzy about not insuring pre-existing conditions.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: serious crayons on March 16, 2009, 08:19:01 pm
IE, a single person, if not a student, is supposed to get a job and buy insurance either directly or via his/her employer. Can we spell "responsibility"?

Can we spell "8.1 percent unemployment"?

Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: mariez on March 16, 2009, 08:33:27 pm
 I was baffled into silence as to why a women's rights organization would ever see Thelma and Louise from the eponymous film as some sort of heroines of the feminist movement.  They were KILLERS for Chrissakes.  I walked away from the NOW recruitment table and have stayed away from them ever since.  

OMG, don't even get me started on "Thelma and Louise."  I detested that movie, and was appalled and perplexed that so many people considered it a "feminist" movie.  Not only did it glorify violence and vigilantism (blowing up the tanker truck was such a nice touch - ugh), there was also that repulsive scene where the Geena Davis character (I don't remember who was who) is just glowing one morning all because, as Susan Sarandon points out to her - she's finally been "f*cked good and proper" and by Brad Pitt, of course!   Which, naturally, is just one of the reasons why they both believe it was all worth it and don't regret anything  - right before the drive off a cliff and kill themselves.  Good God.  These are role models? 


I don't see feminism and NOW as synonymous at all. I've always been a feminist, never belonged to NOW.

I've never been a member of NOW either, and I also don't see them as synonymous with feminism.  Throughout the years I've heard many things said by women who also consider themselves feminists that I don't agree with, but, to me, that's part of being a feminist - thinking for myself and not just following any group mentality. 

Marie
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: BelAir on March 16, 2009, 09:02:31 pm
Hmnn... I wish there was an "other" answer on the poll.

I'll read others answers, and then maybe elaborate more.

Though in general, I'd go with other, because well, I don't feel I really know what I would be saying "yes" or "no" to...
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: delalluvia on March 16, 2009, 09:11:33 pm
OMG, don't even get me started on "Thelma and Louise."  I detested that movie, and was appalled and perplexed that so many people considered it a "feminist" movie.  Not only did it glorify violence and vigilantism (blowing up the tanker truck was such a nice touch - ugh), there was also that repulsive scene where the Geena Davis character (I don't remember who was who) is just glowing one morning all because, as Susan Sarandon points out to her - she's finally been "f*cked good and proper" and by Brad Pitt, of course!   Which, naturally, is just one of the reasons why they both believe it was all worth it and don't regret anything  - right before the drive off a cliff and kill themselves.  Good God.  These are role models? 

Just different POVs.  Other women saw them as glorifying the right to stand up and defend themselves, to not be intimidated and to actually enjoy their own bodies and right to their own sexual enjoyment, just to find out at the end, that the world had no place for women such as themselves.  So they killed themselves.

IMO it was a really sad movie - and typical of movies about women who stand up and out from the norm, they have to die.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: louisev on March 16, 2009, 09:21:58 pm
OMG, don't even get me started on "Thelma and Louise."  I detested that movie, and was appalled and perplexed that so many people considered it a "feminist" movie.  Not only did it glorify violence and vigilantism (blowing up the tanker truck was such a nice touch - ugh), there was also that repulsive scene where the Geena Davis character (I don't remember who was who) is just glowing one morning all because, as Susan Sarandon points out to her - she's finally been "f*cked good and proper" and by Brad Pitt, of course!   Which, naturally, is just one of the reasons why they both believe it was all worth it and don't regret anything  - right before the drive off a cliff and kill themselves.  Good God.  These are role models? 


I've never been a member of NOW either, and I also don't see them as synonymous with feminism.  Throughout the years I've heard many things said by women who also consider themselves feminists that I don't agree with, but, to me, that's part of being a feminist - thinking for myself and not just following any group mentality. 

Marie

well, unfortunately for feminism, N.O.W. is "the largest feminist organization in the USA" and gets the most press and the most attention.  So when they made Thelma and Louise their official mascots, they were speaking for the largest organized body of women's rights activists in this country.  And I didn't want to have anything to do with them.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: mariez on March 16, 2009, 09:31:11 pm
Just different POVs.  Other women saw them as glorifying the right to stand up and defend themselves, to not be intimidated and to actually enjoy their own bodies and right to their own sexual enjoyment, just to find out at the end, that the world had no place for women such as themselves.  So they killed themselves.

Yeah, I get that is what I was "supposed" to take away from the movie - but I didn't.  IMO, there are a lot better ways to show women standing up for themselves and enjoying their own bodies.  And I disagree with the notion depicted that there is no place for women who stand up for themselves or who enjoy their own bodies and the right to their own sexual enjoyment.  I do both - and I'm very much alive.  ;D

well, unfortunately for feminism, N.O.W. is "the largest feminist organization in the USA" and gets the most press and the most attention.  So when they made Thelma and Louise their official mascots, they were speaking for the largest organized body of women's rights activists in this country.  And I didn't want to have anything to do with them.

Yes, I can definitely understand that, Louise.  But does N.O.W. get as much press or attention as it used to?  I don't think it does.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: delalluvia on March 16, 2009, 09:34:47 pm
Yeah, I get that is what I was "supposed" to take away from the movie - but I didn't.  IMO, there are a lot better ways to show women standing up for themselves and enjoying their own bodies.  And I disagree with the notion depicted that there is no place for women who stand up for themselves or who enjoy their own bodies and the right to their own sexual enjoyment.  I do both - and I'm very much alive.  ;D

Oh, I agree with you, but unfortunately the majority of the world is not Westernized, so it's still a pipe dream for most women.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: louisev on March 16, 2009, 09:38:48 pm
Yeah, I get that is what I was "supposed" to take away from the movie - but I didn't.  IMO, there are a lot better ways to show women standing up for themselves and enjoying their own bodies.  And I disagree with the notion depicted that there is no place for women who stand up for themselves or who enjoy their own bodies and the right to their own sexual enjoyment.  I do both - and I'm very much alive.  ;D

Yes, I can definitely understand that, Louise.  But does N.O.W. get as much press or attention as it used to?  I don't think it does.

I haven't any idea.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 16, 2009, 09:39:53 pm
I think all the debates about NOW and Thelma and Louise are interesting here... but, it goes without saying that there's A LOT more to the idea of feminism than either of those two things.  And, I don't think feelings about either one particular movie or one particular organization should be the only guiding reasons for thinking of oneself as a feminist.

Feminism has such a longer history and means so many different things.  


And, on to a totally different subject...

Did anyone see Chris Matthews Hardball tonight (and no, this comment is not about Chris or his show itself)?  He had a woman on who has been working for women's rights against the Taliban in Pakistan and Afghanistan for years (apparently literacy and education are some of her main concerns).  She was really awe inspiring.  She was wearing a traditional head scarf (not covering her face at all) and had a very quiet demeanor, but she was just so powerful.  It's amazing to me to think of the courage it must take to do the kind of work she's engaged in in that part of the world.  I wish I could remember her name.  I should have written it down when I was watching it.  Then he had on an American commentator who was really strangely dismissive of her work and her direct experiences in the region.  It was almost flat out rude, and kind of baffling to watch.  Chris was very terse wth the commentator guy and his odd attitude.



Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 16, 2009, 09:46:07 pm
well, unfortunately for feminism, N.O.W. is "the largest feminist organization in the USA" and gets the most press and the most attention.  So when they made Thelma and Louise their official mascots, they were speaking for the largest organized body of women's rights activists in this country.  And I didn't want to have anything to do with them.

And, I just have to say... that it's OK for NOW to call itself a feminist organization.  Because in its own way, that's what it is.  But, it doesn't mean that one organization gets to define what the more general word "feminism" means.  You can be a feminist of a different sort and disagree with NOW (although, I think NOW evolves a lot and has evolved a lot over time).  I remember back in earlier days of the organization there was a lot of debate about how or if lesbian causes and concerns could or did fit within the mission of NOW.  And, eventually, they made room for lesbian issues within NOW. 

There have always been competing feminist points of view throughout the struggle for women's rights and even back into the suffrage era.  There were competing suffrage organizations with very different strategies, tactics, goals and beliefs.

And, certain things become outmoded too.  Maybe NOW is outmoded or something.  But, that doesn't have much of an impact on how I think of the term feminism, because feminism is much bigger than that to me.

Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: BelAir on March 16, 2009, 10:47:27 pm
I saw Thelma and Louise as a teenager and was quite taken with it.

For the record, it's Louise, played by Susan Sarandon (not Thelma, played by Geena Davis), that shoots the guy who tried to rape Thelma.

Why did I like the movie?  In a 'fantastic' way - it's fun to see women kick ass, sometimes.  Much more fun than watching Jean Claude Van Damm or Steven Segal beat people up.  One of the reasons I like the show Alias.  Of course I don't think they're role models, but I do think they represent struggles faced my many women/people.  And what can go wrong when you have no [known] way to cope with all the sh*t that you're going through.
And I do think there is a point about Thelma finally enjoying sex - but this same cataclysmic moment allows their downfall - their money is stolen, they go on their crime spree, and ultimately find no way out...  How can one enjoy sex when it leads to such horrible things??

(fwiw, not trying to justify anything in particular, just explain my own reactions to the movie...)

Amanda (or anyone), I wonder if you could comment as to how you feel about feminism/feminist as a 'label'?

For example, I feel I am at heart a pacifist (hence the 'fantasy' of kicking ass).  No matter what horrors or atrocities another has committed, I do not feel I could rationally justify harm to them.  (Harm being different than punishment.)  Not to say that I wouldn't get angry or lash out...  And I use the term pacifist to separate myself from someone who feels differently - that there are circumstances where harm is justified.

Do you feel using/accepting/embracing the term feminist separates you from others?  Who specifically?  (I am curious... not trying to berate anyone...)
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: Brown Eyes on March 16, 2009, 11:02:30 pm
Hi BelAir,

I remember I enjoyed Thelma and Louise when I saw it too.  I haven't seen it for years, and years and years.  So, I don't remember all the details about it.  But, I do remember the rape scenario and the idea of being defended and "saved" from a situation like that by a powerful female friend seemed, well, very poweful to me.  And, I do understand what you mean about there just being something fun sometimes about seeing confident and bold women "kick ass" sometimes.  One thing I recall about Thelma and Louise is that most or many of the scenarios they got into were pretty over-the-top or exaggerated.

And, I'll also say that for a number of years, I was a card carrying member of NOW.  I'm not any longer.  I simply let my membership lapse a few years back and haven't renewed.  I don't feel particularly defensive about arguing for or against NOW.  It's fine to me if some folks don't agree with that organization.  I do feel very defensive and protective of the concept of feminism more broadly though.

Well, in a nutshell (and elaborating on my posts at the beginning of this thread where I talked a bit about what feminism means to me)... I think it's a way of proclaiming in a proud and clear way that women's rights issues and gender equality issues are really important to me and fundamental to my world view.  I know there are lots of people out there who see the term "feminism" as something really negative and I just refuse to let that view of the word get to me.  Also, as I mentioned in earlier posts, I think of feminism as having a centuries long history... going well beyond the 60s and 70s women's rights era (sometimes I think the term feminism is far too confined to an understanding based on that era).  I embrace the term feminism as a way to honor all the women and men who have worked for so long to fight for progress in terms of women's rights and gender equality on all sorts of fronts (education, voting rights, political issues, work issues, health issues, etc.).

Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: BelAir on March 16, 2009, 11:09:59 pm
Hi BelAir,

I remember I enjoyed Thelma and Louise when I saw it too.  I haven't seen it for years, and years and years.  So, I don't remember all the details about it.  But, I do remember the rape scenario and the idea of being defended and "saved" from a situation like that by a powerful female friend seemed, well, very poweful to me.  And, I do understand what you mean about there just being something fun sometimes about seeing confident and bold women "kick ass" sometimes.  One thing I recall about Thelma and Louise is that most or many of the scenarios they got into were pretty over-the-top or exaggerated.

And, I'll also say that for a number of years, I was a card carrying member of NOW.  I'm not any longer.  I simply let my membership lapse a few years back and haven't renewed.  I don't feel particularly defensive about arguing for or against NOW.  It's fine to me if some folks don't agree with that organization.  I do feel very defensive and protective of the concept of feminism more broadly though.

Well, in a nutshell (and elaborating on my posts at the beginning of this thread where I talked a bit about what feminism means to me)... I think it's a way of proclaiming in a proud and clear way that women's rights issues and gender equality issues are really important to me and fundamental to my world view.  I know there are lots of people out there who see the term "feminism" as something really negative and I just refuse to let that view of the word get to me.  Also, as I mentioned in earlier posts, I think of feminism as having a centuries long history... going well beyond the 60s and 70s women's rights era (sometimes I think the term feminism is far too confined to an understanding based on that era).  I embrace the term feminism as a way to honor all the women and men who have worked for so long to fight for progress in terms of women's rights and gender equality on all sorts of fronts (education, voting rights, political issues, work issues, health issues, etc.).


I liked it a lot - so I saw it 1000x!

 ;D

Thanks for writing more, Amanda...

So, if I am interpreting you correctly, you feel like feminism/feminist isn't something that specifically separates you from others (in contrast to my feeling about pacifist/pacifism) - but it's more like a "badge" (sorry it's the only word that jumps to mind), or a bumper sticker of support, if that makes any sense?  To try to say it another way, obviously the term(s) separate you from those who disagree with you, but that separation isn't central to how you feel about feminism?

(It's interesting to me to hear your perspective, because I guess I've always felt/thought of "-ism/-ist" words as labels...)

Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: BelAir on March 16, 2009, 11:11:02 pm
Hey - the poll miraculously changed while I've been reading the thread!!!

 :)

(I went with 'not exactly sure what a feminist is')
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: serious crayons on March 16, 2009, 11:18:06 pm
well, unfortunately for feminism, N.O.W. is "the largest feminist organization in the USA" and gets the most press and the most attention.  So when they made Thelma and Louise their official mascots, they were speaking for the largest organized body of women's rights activists in this country.  And I didn't want to have anything to do with them.

To me, NOW is to feminism sort of as the Catholic church is to Christianity. It's one big organization representing a large chunk of the group, but it's not the whole group. And it's possible to be in the group -- that is, to hold the beliefs that define the group -- without belonging to any organization at all.

It's not a perfect analogy, because most Christians do belong to one church or another. Whereas I don't think most feminists belong to any feminist organization.


Do you feel using/accepting/embracing the term feminist separates you from others?  Who specifically?  (I am curious... not trying to berate anyone...)

To me, it mainly separates me from someone who does not feel that women are entitled to the same rights as men -- i.e., sexists. It's hard to imagine there being any other options in between. I guess I subscribe to a very passive idea of feminism.

I don't think one has to be either a NOW member or even an activist to be a feminist. I don't think one has to hold one particular set of beliefs, not agree with all other feminists about everything, nor live one's life in any particular way. I do think one has to believe in equal rights very strongly, though, and to be aware enough to notice when those rights are being compromised, to stand up for them if possible when, or if, push comes to shove.

A lot of it is internal and attitudinal. A feminist, for example, might iron all of her husband's shirts because she loves her husband and wants to do him this nice favor. If she irons the shirts because she feels that's a woman's duty to her husband as king of his castle and head of the family, then she's probably not a feminist.

A couple of other clarifications: I enjoyed Thelma and Louise, too. I just saw it as entertainment, not as a triumph for women. But it was also a bit refreshing -- not the murder, but the fact that it showed women not relying on men to rescue them. It was very rare in movies in them days -- less so now -- for women in distress to not have to be saved by men.

Also, I have never belonged to NOW, but not because of some strong philosophical difference with the organization. I'm just not much of a joiner.

Hey - the poll miraculously changed while I've been reading the thread!!!

The thread genie granted your wish!  ;)

Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: delalluvia on March 17, 2009, 08:14:14 am
college students are not considered "unemployed".

Can we spell "misrepresentation"?

I think she meant the current unemployment rate.

And whether college students are considered 'unemployed' or not, the end result is the same.  No money for insurance?  No medical care.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: delalluvia on March 17, 2009, 08:23:34 am
Quote
To me, NOW is to feminism sort of as the Catholic church is to Christianity. It's one big organization representing a large chunk of the group, but it's not the whole group. And it's possible to be in the group -- that is, to hold the beliefs that define the group -- without belonging to any organization at all.

It's not a perfect analogy, because most Christians do belong to one church or another. Whereas I don't think most feminists belong to any feminist organization.

Umm, pretty good analogy.  I was a card carrying member of NOW as were some of my friends, but like atz, I let my membership lapse.  Too many causes, too little money to donate to all of them.

Quote
Quote from: BelAir on Yesterday at 09:47:27 PM
Do you feel using/accepting/embracing the term feminist separates you from others?  Who specifically?  (I am curious... not trying to berate anyone...)


To me, it mainly separates me from someone who does not feel that women are entitled to the same rights as men -- i.e., sexists. It's hard to imagine there being any other options in between. I guess I subscribe to a very passive idea of feminism.

What crayons said.  I don't think there is an in-between.  Either a human being in their right mind and adult has the same rights as another or they don't.
Title: Re: Do you consider yourself a feminist? (A question for both women and men.)
Post by: serious crayons on March 17, 2009, 09:33:16 am
college students are not considered "unemployed".

Can we spell "misrepresentation"?

I think she meant the current unemployment rate.

And whether college students are considered 'unemployed' or not, the end result is the same.  No money for insurance?  No medical care.

Thanks, Del, that is what I meant. Not everybody has or can afford health insurance. Duh. Especially now. Double duh. I haven't followed this little debate closely enough to figure out what the significance of college enrollment is.

HK, can we spell "this discussion is boring and way off topic"?