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Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond => Brokeback Mountain Open Forum => Topic started by: nakymaton on July 24, 2006, 04:52:19 pm

Title: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: nakymaton on July 24, 2006, 04:52:19 pm
This has been niggling away at me for a while, and I'm going to throw it out to the forum and see if you all have insights that I don't have.

It seems like conversations about Ennis keep coming back to the internal struggles he has. Whether people say he doesn't know that he's gay, or won't accept that he's gay, or won't accept that he loves Jack, or knows he loves Jack but is scared of that horrible memory of his childhood, it still comes down to some kind of essential conflict within Ennis himself. And it rips my heart out to watch it.

But then there's Jack. On the one hand, Jack seems like he's the one who accepts who he is and who he loves and just wants to be able to live openly with Ennis. But on the other hand... Jack also pretends to be straight to the world, and seems to manage it fairly successfully until Ennis's divorce. (And even afterwards, Lureen and Jack never get divorced.)

In the story, Jack lies. He lies a lot. But in the movie, he's quite a bit different -- in particular, he seems much more emotionally vulnerable than story-Jack is. So... hmmm.

Here's one try. Pick this apart, cause I don't think I've got it figured out.

Movie-Jack seems like a bit of a chameleon... like he tries (at least) to be what people expect him to be. It sounds like he never succeeded with his father (paraphrase from memory: "can't please my dad," in the first bar scene). And he doesn't succeed with Aguirre (not the first summer, and definitely not the second summer). And he doesn't succeed with Lureen's father (though he appears to be trying, at least, in the scene with baby Bobby). But he succeeds the first time he meets Lureen, and he's at least a decent salesman ("You're the best combine salesman we've got." Though he's also the only combine salesman Lureen's got, so that may be faint praise.)

And then there's Ennis. Or rather, there are the many different Jacks that react to Ennis. There's that first moment outside Aguirre's trailer, when Jack looks as though he's going to start off by saying something, but when they end up sizing each other up (or checking each other out; they could be doing either or both). There's the very friendly "Your folks just stop at Ennis?" There's the attempt to find common ground in the bar ("You from ranch people?")

And then on the mountain there's all the bitching about Aguirre... trying to find common ground by complaining about the boss? There's that moment when Jack tries to decide how to approach Ennis after the bear attack, when Jack is worried and happy to see Ennis, but fakes being angry. It's like Jack just keeps trying different approaches to see how Ennis responds to them.

I could try to fit every interaction into this description, but I'm not sure if I can. But I wonder... does Jack like being a chameleon, or is it a relief that Ennis seems to know Jack, that Jack doesn't have to pretend to be somebody that he's not? And does Jack start to fall apart after the divorce because he doesn't want to have to keep up a charade for his entire life?
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: Daniel on July 24, 2006, 05:09:23 pm
I see Jack more as being openhearted and sensitive to everyone around him. As I understand him, all he wanted was a little bit of kindness, some sign of loving affection from the men in his life (his father, Mr. Aguirre, Ennis, Jimbo, Mr. Newsome), but he never received any, except for the little bit from Ennis on the mountain and during their reunion. Jack's personality centered and hinged on this prospect of love and kindness. If you notice in the film, Jack was never afraid to show kindness. And I think we can suspect that he learned that from his mother, as his father didn't seem to show him any and none of the other men that he encountered in the film did either.

There are some people in this world whose beings center around this perception of being loved. And I think Jack was one of those people. He pursued many "interests" such as rodeoing and ranching, but I think all in all, these were attempts to be recognized and loved by his father specifically. He wanted to make him proud so that his father would finally show some appreciation to him. Most of the men in his life seemed to avoid doing that.

Just my thoughts.

 
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: Shakesthecoffecan on July 24, 2006, 07:24:14 pm
The thread "Jack.....rejected by men" is very similar to this one, may want to check that out as well.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 24, 2006, 07:27:34 pm
Daniel, I really like the way you see Jack. Parents have such an influence on their children. And thank you, Mel, for starting this subject. At last someone talking about Jack rather than Ennis!!
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 24, 2006, 11:37:37 pm
Hi Mel,

Good topic.  I think the metaphor of a cameleon is a good one for Jack.  And, I do think that letting down his masks (everything to do with Texas really) is part of his relief in being with Ennis when he is with Ennis.  And vice versa, of course... maybe even more so for Ennis.  But, I think Jack is very wary of Ennis in many ways and is scared (a lot of the time I think) of setting Ennis off or frightening Ennis off, etc.  I think Jack picks his words carefully with Ennis.  Telling him somethings and fibbing about others.  I'd like to believe that there are moments between the two of them when they both mutually put down their guard, masks, fears, etc. and just enjoy one another and try to understand one another.

But I think what you said here is quite accurate:

Quote
there are the many different Jacks that react to Ennis



Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: nakymaton on July 25, 2006, 10:19:14 am
shakestheground, you're right, the two threads do cover some of the same ground. Or at least maybe the "...rejected by men" thread answers my question? Anyway, I wouldn't mind having the threads merged if Katie would like that, as well, and if Katherine thinks they ought to be. I guess I didn't put the question in that thread, in part, because I wasn't sure that the "rejected by men" was the answer to my question. Or at least, I wasn't sure it was the entire answer.

I didn't word the question very well. Originally, I was thinking that Jack seems to compartmentalize his life, like he's got an Outer Jack who is the person that people expect or want him to be (and who can be different at different times, or with different people), and an Inner Jack. And I'm not sure we see the Inner Jack very often, even with Ennis -- yeah, Amanda, Jack really does pick his words carefully with Ennis, at least when Jack's saying something really important (the cow-and-calf-operation speech). And I was wondering whether if Jack was comfortable with having an Inner Jack that was hidden away (some people seem to be able to live very comfortably inhabiting various personas for the outside world, and staying very private about their inner self), or whether it was behavior that Jack had adopted in order to survive. (This is a little different, I think, than wanting to be able to live openly with Ennis. Or maybe it isn't. I'm not sure. I don't really understand Jack.)

And the sense of rejection might be part of it. Or maybe, the sense of rejection coupled with the desire for affection that Daniel describes -- Jack seems to want and need human contact. (I think the desire to be accepted and respected by his father, and maybe men like Aguirre and L. D. Newsome as well, is something different from the desire for affection from Ennis, or Jimbo or Randall... but they're all part of wanting to be liked or loved by other people.)

(And there was another interesting post about Jack-the-dreamer vs Jack-the-realist in here, and I think that might be part of it, too, and I wanted to respond but didn't have time yesterday. And it's gone now. But anyway, I know the post described the way Jack's window looked out on the only road that left his childhood home, and it seemed like that captured something about Jack, too. Only one road leaving home, and spending an entire childhood looking down there and dreaming. And being somebody who needs human contact, feeling very isolated with just his parents and the long horizons of the Wyoming plains. And being attracted to men, too. No wonder Jack wanted to get away, even if he also kept going back and telling his father that he was going to come back to stay.)
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 25, 2006, 10:55:40 am
I thought Jack took rejection admirably well, considering. He didn't let Ennis's ribbing get to him and he picked himself up out of the dirt when those bulls threw him. He didn't let humiliation by Aguirre or Jimbo deflate him. He withstood L.D.'s ridicule and that of the Childress community for about a decade before losing his temper. I thought he was actually a pretty resilient person considering all of the shit he endured. But the experience of Brokeback Mountain and his relationship with Ennis was his primary source of strength. The knowledge that at one time and in one place he was unconditionally loved and accepted. That's what the flashback scene is all about. That's the ultimate human need and the one thing that all of us don't hardly never get.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: ednbarby on July 25, 2006, 12:35:08 pm
I thought Jack took rejection admirably well, considering. He didn't let Ennis's ribbing get to him and he picked himself up out of the dirt when those bulls threw him. He didn't let humiliation by Aguirre or Jimbo deflate him. He withstood L.D.'s ridicule and that of the Childress community for about a decade before losing his temper. I thought he was actually a pretty resilient person considering all of the shit he endured. But the experience of Brokeback Mountain and his relationship with Ennis was his primary source of strength. The knowledge that at one time and in one place he was unconditionally loved and accepted. That's what the flashback scene is all about. That's the ultimate human need and the one thing that all of us don't hardly never get.

Beautifully put, Lee.

My friend at work who so loved the movie and then the short story that she's seen/read them twice each and ordered copies for herself so she can again and I talk about Jack fairly regularly.  The thing she was struggling to understand about him was how someone so open and seemingly fearless could come from such a repressed, lonely, and austere childhood.  I've said I think his mother had a big part in that.  And I think he rebelled, in a way, from his father while at the same time always trying to make him proud of him.  It's the eternal struggle and one that's so often rather broadly depicted in film - the conflict between father and son.  But it was so subtlely done here that it didn't beat you over the head like they usually end up doing with that conflict.  I saw it in my brothers growing up - in one in particular, and still do.  And like John Twist, my father is always saying "Andy's putting up another one of his 'trial balloons'" again," or, eerily, "Just another one of Andy's great ideas that never came to pass..."  When that brother gets to drinking too much, and he does way too often, all those years of feeling unaccepted and underloved by my father come spilling out.  And yet he is the life of every party.  If Andy is there, your party is *guaranteed* to be a success.  He's good-looking, charming, outgoing, comfortable in his own skin, and funny as hell.  And he hates his life because he never really amounted to what he thought our Dad wanted him to be.  My Dad just last night got going on about his lack of self-esteem - how he doesn't understand why he "settles" for so much mediocrity in his life when he's "got the world by the balls" like he does.  I very carefully said, "Well, not blaming you or anything, but there were a lot of years there when I think he didn't think you cared very much about him [or about my other brother and me, for that matter].  That kind of stuff does take a toll."  I was surprised to hear him not get all defensive but to say, "I know.  And I've tried to make it up to him the best I could.  But I worry maybe it's too late for him."

Sorry.  I digress.  As always.  But I guess it's easy for me to understand and relate to Jack because in so many ways, I grew up with him.  And like Jack, Andy is always trying really hard.  But trying to do what?  Like you've all said, I think it boils down to trying to make his father proud, because that would give him the validation he never got as a child.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 25, 2006, 12:43:26 pm
I can relate all too well, Barb. There was a book I read that really explained all this to me and helped me deal with it and put it behind me. It's called "How to Get the Love You Want," by Harville Hendrix. I think everybody should read it. It talks about the major influence that parents have on their children and the role of birth order. It also talks about how your experiences as a child influence how you select your spouse or partner and what types of people you surround yourself with.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: ednbarby on July 25, 2006, 01:02:01 pm
Yes, unfortunately, I think many of us can.  I worry, even, that my own son is already starting down that path with his father.  Ed has such high expectations for everyone that they can never possibly be met.  It's the way he's always been, but I foolishly hoped he would soften in that way when he had the child he so wanted.  Of course just the opposite seems to be happening, because not only does Will have to live up to his already overblown expectations for him, but he has to make up for all the things Ed feels he himself lacks.

I think Jack was as open and giving and fearless as he was because his mother loved him unconditionally, and maybe even tried to make up in some ways for the love and acceptance he wasn't getting from his father.  I know none of us ever once doubted our mother's love for us.  She made a lot of mistakes, but making us feel unwanted or unappreciated was never one of them.  It's a blessing and a curse.  There's something to be said for that little bit of a wall you build up from years of being underappreciated by *everyone*.  It does protect you.  But let it get too big and strong, and it protects you from *everything*, including the really good stuff.

Ideally, both parents love you unconditionally.  And while they also are responsible for raising a good, decent human being and so sometimes have to correct you, they do it in a way that makes you understand they're doing it because they love you so much, not because they don't love you enough.  Neither Jack nor Ennis was accepted by his father, or felt accepted by most other men.  But maybe Jack's mother felt somewhat more free to express her love for him than Ennis' did for him.  And in the end, that was perhaps his blessing and his curse.  But I like to think it was more of the former than the latter - that it enabled him to get more out of life than he otherwise would have - it enabled him to love Ennis with ever fiber of his being.  And in doing that, he at least saved one of them.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 25, 2006, 01:30:09 pm
Notice how Jack was always talking about his dad, and the only mention of his mother was that she "believes in the Pentacost." Even there he didn't absorb her beliefs or even understand what the Pentacost was about. He was continually talking about going to help his "daddy" through the winter. This is one of the earmarks of a neglected or abused child who feels somehow that he or she is to blame rather than the parent, and is always striving to meet up to impossible expectations.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 25, 2006, 02:06:26 pm
Just had this thought about Jack as I was writing some Fanfic and found the perfect thread. I think what kept Jack going was that Ennis never rejected him, in the sense he never wanted to end the ralationship. He never gave Jack what he really wanted, but he still was there for the fishing trips. I think that is why Jack waited four years to contact Ennis, a very real fear that Ennis wouldn't answer or tell him to leave him alone, so by not contacting him he was keeping hope alive. Jack could not have stood that. He was able to accept all the other rejections as long as he had Ennis.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: ednbarby on July 25, 2006, 02:16:48 pm
Quote
Notice how Jack was always talking about his dad, and the only mention of his mother was that she "believes in the Pentacost." Even there he didn't absorb her beliefs or even understand what the Pentacost was about. He was continually talking about going to help his "daddy" through the winter. This is one of the earmarks of a neglected or abused child who feels somehow that he or she is to blame rather than the parent, and is always striving to meet up to impossible expectations.

Excellent point.  It's true - you really don't mention the parent whose love you never questioned in those types of situations.  We always got around to our childhood horror stories when we got hanging out and drinking in college.  And we would almost try to out-do one another with things like, "Oh, yeah?  Well, one time, my Dad..." or ", my Mom..."  We never tried to out-do each other on whose parent(s) loved them the most or did the most loving things.  Hopefully, though, that's because the unforgiving moments were much less constant than the all-abiding love - we remember those moments distinctly because there were fewer of them than the other.  I like to hope that, anyway.


Quote
Just had this thought about Jack asI was writing some Fanfic and found the perfect thread. I think what kept Jack going was that Ennis never rejected him, in the since he never wanted to end the ralationship. He never gave Jack what he really wanted, but he still was there for the fishing trips. I think that is why Jack waited four years to contact Ennis, a very real fear that Ennis wouldn't answer or tell him to leave him alone, so by not contacting him he was keeping hope alive.. Jack could not have stood that. He was able to accept all the other rejections as long as he had Ennis.

Another excellent point - it explains perfectly why Jack waited for four fuckin' years.  Thanks, JP.

Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: ekeby on July 25, 2006, 02:47:43 pm
I agree that Jack compartmentalizes . . . and he manipulates; it's a little hard to figure out where one trait ends and the other begins. I realized last time I watched that Jack lies to Ennis in the motel room when he neglects to mention that Aguirre knew what they were up to. It's like he's put that information in a lock box somewhere, because some part of him knows if he reveals it, Ennis could end what they have. And this is well before Ennis gives the I told you it's not gonna be like that speech . . . .
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: coffeecat33 on July 25, 2006, 07:52:36 pm
Here's a line from the short story by A. P. that I like, Without getting up, he threw deadwood on the fire, the sparks flying up with their truths and lies,..." I don't think Jack always intentionally lied, but I think Jack wanted Ennis so bad he walked on egg shells around him, trying not to upset him or send him into a rage. Jack did not want to get rejected by Ennis, so he skirted around some issues (been to Mexico, seeing the rancher's wife) in order not to incur Ennis' wrath. Ironically Jack's worst fears of being rejected by Ennis occurred anyway.

Some people are born with what's called, "resiliency." Even though they have a childhood of deprivation and are at risk of not succeeding, they still manage to. Jack took a lot of chances. He left home, left the state, hit on men he didn't know, asked Ennis to live with him, etc. I don't see Jack as hidden or having in outer & inner Jack. (At any rate, most of us have outer & inner selves.) I don't think he compartmentalized very well ("He drank a lot.") - he couldn't stop himself from talking about Ennis, even to his dad. I always felt Jack got married because Lureen had money (he finds that out before she approaches him), she was aggressive and (being Jack) he went along for the ride and probably mainly because they got pregnant. Not telling Ennis about Aguirre's observations was to protect Ennis I think. Ennis would freak if he knew Aquirre knew they were gay and had seen them having sex, wouldn't he?

I am so biased in Jack's favor, I can't be that objective but this is an interesting thread. cc33
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 25, 2006, 07:57:31 pm
Here's a line from the short story by A. P. that I like, Without getting up, he threw deadwood on the fire, the sparks flying up with their truths and lies,..." I don't think Jack always intentionally lied, but I think Jack wanted Ennis so bad he walked on egg shells around him, trying not to upset him or send him into a rage. Jack did not want to get rejected by Ennis, so he skirted around some issues (been to Mexico, seeing the rancher's wife) in order not to incur Ennis' wrath. Ironically Jack's worst fears of being rejected by Ennis occurred anyway.

Some people are born with what's called, "resiliency." Even though they have a childhood of deprivation and are at risk of not succeeding, they still manage to. Jack took a lot of chances. He left home, left the state, hit on men he didn't know, asked Ennis to live with him, etc. I don't see Jack as hidden or having in outer & inner Jack. (At any rate, most of us have outer & inner selves.) I don't think he compartmentalized very well ("He drank a lot.") - he couldn't stop himself from talking about Ennis, even to his dad. I always felt Jack got married because Lureen had money (he finds that out before she approaches him), she was aggressive and (being Jack) he went along for the ride and probably mainly because they got pregnant. Not telling Ennis about Aguirre's observations was to protect Ennis I think. Ennis would freak if he knew Aquirre knew they were gay and had seen them having sex, wouldn't he?

I am so biased in Jack's favor, I can't be that objective but this is an interesting thread. cc33
Very good about keeping Ennis from knowing about Agguire, never quite looked at it that way.Jack was always protecting Ennis.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: twistedude on July 25, 2006, 08:10:13 pm
I think Front-Ranger and jpwaggoner nailed it.

My norher's psychiatrist in  the earl;y '50s had a Volkswagon, which was always needing attendtion. She said she thought she loved it because it needed her so much.
I just thought of some crude but not inappropriaste lines from an old poem (won't say whose); perhasps this is why so many of us feel like we want to rip open Jack's thighs and belly and bury our heads in his entrails...

Sorry about thwt..

About lying: Jack in the movie was a consummate lier---"yeah..." "he told me you hadn't been around so I left."  etc,. I suggested in a short story that he might have picvked it up from his mother, who probably had to lie a lot to keep head attached to shoulders.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 25, 2006, 08:22:14 pm
I think Front-Ranger and jpwaggoner nailed it.

My norher's psychiatrist in  the earl;y '50s had a Volkswagon, which was always needing attendtion. She said she thought she loved it because it needed her so much.
I just thought of some crude but not inappropriaste lines from an old poem (won't say whose); perhasps this is why so many of us feel like we want to rip open Jack's thighs and belly and bury our heads in his entrails...

Sorry about thwt..

About lying: Jack in the movie was a consummate lier---"yeah..." "he told me you hadn't been around so I left."  etc,. I suggested in a short story that he might have picvked it up from his mother, who probably had to lie a lot to keep head attached to shoulders.
In his defense, Jack didn't actually lie, he just witheld the whole story.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: Brown Eyes on July 25, 2006, 08:43:33 pm
My goodness... there are so many interesting things in this thread and tons of different opinions that I tend to agree with... even some that seem contradictory.

I think witholding the whole story about Aguirre knowing about them is a perfect example of Jack being very circumspect with Ennis even before the scary revelation of the Earl story.  But, I think it goes even further back... I think the chat with Ennis on the moutaintop the morning after TS1 is another great example of Jack choosing his words very carefully (even through a very emotional moment).  Instead of responding to Ennis's "one shot deal" comment, he Jack sort of switches topics and says "it's nobody's business but ours" (a smart thing to say to calm some of Ennis's fears).  It's an interesting non-sequitur and it might have helped encourage Ennis to continue the relationship (although he probably would have anyway... out of his own desires, etc.).

I thought Jack took rejection admirably well, considering. He didn't let Ennis's ribbing get to him and he picked himself up out of the dirt when those bulls threw him. He didn't let humiliation by Aguirre or Jimbo deflate him. He withstood L.D.'s ridicule and that of the Childress community for about a decade before losing his temper. I thought he was actually a pretty resilient person considering all of the shit he endured. But the experience of Brokeback Mountain and his relationship with Ennis was his primary source of strength. The knowledge that at one time and in one place he was unconditionally loved and accepted. That's what the flashback scene is all about. That's the ultimate human need and the one thing that all of us don't hardly never get.

Lee, I just wanted to add to what others have noted and say that I think this is really a lovely post.  And in combination with what jpwagoneer1964 said here:

He was able to accept all the other rejections as long as he had Ennis.

I think we have a pretty good summary of many of Jack's motivations.

About his parents... I think it's very interesting to note that he mentions his Dad a lot more than his nice Mom.  I agree that the way he relates to his father probably has a lot to do with his father's abusiveness and his desire for approval from his Dad.  I'm going to re-ignite an old debate about Jack's Dad here - that re-emerges from time to time on various threads.    Just to see what happens.
 ;)

I wonder if a lot of Jack's self-confidence and self-awareness and (in other words) relative lack of fear about his sexuality/ the world's reaction to his sexuality (compared to Ennis) has something to do with the fact that neither of Jack's parents seem to be homophobic.  His Dad is an awful human being, but does not seem to be all that homophobic.  He's an abusive asshole but not necessarily a homophobic asshole.  And, his mother is so welcoming of Ennis and seems so respectful of Ennis's relationship with Jack that she more clearly doesn't seem homophobic.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: dly64 on July 25, 2006, 11:33:13 pm
I just started reading this thread and found it very interesting. So many great thoughts.

Amanda – you are right …. You may be opening an ol’ can of worms with the whole OMT idea! YIKES! I’ll avoid that debate for the moment.

I have always felt a kinship to Jack. I understand him very well. No, I’m not gay … but I’m in a secret relationship and have been for 14 years. In my case, I am white, he is black. Although my family could care less, his family has major issues about the “evil ways of white women”. So I remain hidden. We only see each other a couple of times a year and it sucks. Forget about marriage …. it will never happen. As for “quitting” him? He’s in my blood. Although I have tried to be with other men, I can’t. This is how I see Jack and Ennis’ relationship. Jack has to live a double life …. his public-appropriate life and his hidden-authentic life. Jack hasn’t chosen this path. However, circumstances have forced him into this situation.

When Jack is with Ennis, he is  his authentic self. He can be a whiner and a dreamer, etc. Ennis understands Jack in a way nobody else can and vice versa. What Jack does not share with Ennis is his indiscretions (until he is forced to). Jack fears rejection. His love for Ennis is the one constant in his life and he doesn’t want to lose it. Yet, Jack has physical needs that are not being met on a regular basis … so he explores (i.e. Mexico, Randall). It means little to him, but it helps fill a void.

Jack is more outwardly vulnerable than Ennis. Ennis simply bottles his feelings until they come exploding out. (It is no coincidence that there are fireworks going on in the background when he beats up the bikers). Every emotion that Jack experiences, we experience, too. We feel Jack’s joy for living, but we also feel his pain. We feel Jack’s love and tenderness for Ennis, but we also feel his frustration. Jack does, however, contain his emotions a lot more in his “public-appropriate” life. There’s nobody in his “public” world that he really cares that much about. So, IMO, Jack really doesn’t expend that much emotional energy publicly as he does privately (except, of course, when L.D. “stud duck” Newsom  pushes him beyond the breaking point … then he explodes al la Ennis).

It is exhausting for Jack to live both of these lives. We can see the toll that it has taken on himself and on his relationship with Ennis. However, Jack still allows himself to be vulnerable with Ennis. Because Jack loves Ennis, it is worth him expending that emotional energy. When we see Jack’s home and we look around his bedroom, we have a glimpse at what Jack overcame to make room for his feelings. But still, the shirts are hidden to the “public”. Privately Jack longs for the love-of-his-life and knows that it will have to remain hidden. Therein lies the tragedy.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: serious crayons on July 25, 2006, 11:44:02 pm
Jack is more outwardly vulnerable than Ennis. Ennis simply bottles his feelings until they come exploding out. (It is no coincidence that there are fireworks going on in the background when he beats up the bikers). Every emotion that Jack experiences, we experience, too. We feel Jack’s joy for living, but we also feel his pain. We feel Jack’s love and tenderness for Ennis, but we also feel his frustration.

That's so interesting, Diane! That's exactly how I feel, only about Ennis. I always understand what Jack's emotions are, but I don't feel them in the same intense way I do Ennis' emotions -- and I always know what they are, even before they come exploding out. How weird! I bet that goes a long way to explaining why some people feel more empathetic toward Jack and others more so toward Ennis.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: coffeecat33 on July 26, 2006, 07:08:12 pm
I feel empathy for both Jack & Ennis. However, I have a violent physical attraction toward Jack.

p.s.  Latjoreme, it's been very hot & humid here in Minnesota - approaching tropical rain forest dew points.  :P
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: dly64 on July 26, 2006, 08:00:38 pm
That's so interesting, Diane! That's exactly how I feel, only about Ennis. I always understand what Jack's emotions are, but I don't feel them in the same intense way I do Ennis' emotions -- and I always know what they are, even before they come exploding out. How weird! I bet that goes a long way to explaining why some people feel more empathetic toward Jack and others more so toward Ennis.

That is funny! As coffeecat33 says, I, too, have empathy for both. However, just as you have pointed out, Katherine, each person comes with his/her own POV. Because of that, I understand  Jack better than Ennis. It’s Jack’s pain that comes over me like a wave. He just gives one look and my heart breaks.

So would you say your personality is more similar to Ennis vs. Jack? Or is it just that you feel Ennis’ pain more vividly? Just curious!
 ;)
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: serious crayons on July 26, 2006, 08:34:40 pm
It’s Jack’s pain that comes over me like a wave. He just gives one look and my heart breaks.

Well, that's exactly what I mean. I empathize with both of them, too. But my empathy for Jack is more intellectual, whereas I feel visceral, emotional empathy with Ennis. I'll have to confess that when I first got on imdb and saw all those posts focusing on poor Jack's life, I had to stop and think, "Hey yeah, I guess the situation was pretty sad for Jack, too!" Duh. But I was so focused on Ennis' pain, I barely noticed at first that it was no picnic for either of them. ::)

Quote
So would you say your personality is more similar to Ennis vs. Jack?

A little of both, I guess. I'm naturally more of an Ennis, but I've gradually became more Jacklike -- more extroverted and social and optimistic. It's no fun to be an Ennis. And I'll admit that Jacks usually are more fun to be around. Still, I tend to be more intrigued by messed-up Ennis types. Just as Jack was, I guess.

And you?
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: dly64 on July 26, 2006, 08:58:48 pm
A little of both, I guess. I'm naturally more of an Ennis, but I've gradually became more Jacklike -- more extroverted and social and optimistic. It's no fun to be an Ennis. And I'll admit that Jacks usually are more fun to be around. Still, I tend to be more intrigued by messed-up Ennis types. Just as Jack was, I guess.

And you?

I am very much like Jack ... except even more emotional. I pretty much wear my feelings on my sleeve. I don't hide anything very well. When I'm hurt, I show it. But, I admit, I am attracted to men who are the opposite of me. As you have said, "the messed-up Ennis types" ... yep. Even my girlfriends tend to be more abrasive than I am.

They laugh at me at work because they always say I am so “bubbly”. I try to, “see the sunny side of life” I guess! Although I do have a wicked, sarcastic sense of humor. Not sure how that fits in ....  ::)
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: coffeecat33 on July 26, 2006, 09:04:14 pm
MUCH more like Ennis - keep it all inside, don't talk much, stoic. Is that why I am so attracted to Jack??
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: Daniel on July 26, 2006, 09:05:56 pm
quote author=dly64 link=topic=3478.msg65335#msg65335 date=1153961928]
I am very much like Jack ... except even more emotional. I pretty much wear my feelings on my sleeve. I don't hide anything very well. When I'm hurt, I show it. But, I admit, I am attracted to men who are the opposite of me. As you have said, "the messed-up Ennis types" ... yep. Even my girlfriends tend to be more abrasive than I am.

They laugh at me at work because they always say I am so “bubbly”. I try to, “see the sunny side of life” I guess! Although I do have a wicked, sarcastic sense of humor. Not sure how that fits in ....  ::)

[/quote]I know, I'm like that too... lol.. :)

I think these are all characteristics of the Briggs-Meyer INFP (Introverted Intuitive Feeling Perceptive), which I know I am, and I am also pretty sure that Jack was like that too.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: dly64 on July 26, 2006, 11:29:24 pm
I think these are all characteristics of the Briggs-Meyer INFP (Introverted Intuitive Feeling Perceptive), which I know I am, and I am also pretty sure that Jack was like that too.

Actually, I am ENFJ (however, there is only one point difference between my "I" score and my "E"). I would see Jack as being extroverted. He is certainly the more gregarious of the two!  ;) However, the rest certainly fits his personality.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: ednbarby on July 27, 2006, 04:49:18 pm
Actually, I am ENFJ (however, there is only one point difference between my "I" score and my "E"). I would see Jack as being extroverted. He is certainly the more gregarious of the two!  ;) However, the rest certainly fits his personality.

Back in the old IMDb boards, someone (was it Leslie?  Victoria?) took the Myers-Briggs as if they were Jack and as if they were Ennis.  I'm pretty sure they came up with ENFJ for Jack, but I forget.

(<--- INTJ, for what it's worth)
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: dly64 on July 27, 2006, 06:58:16 pm
Back in the old IMDb boards, someone (was it Leslie?  Victoria?) took the Myers-Briggs as if they were Jack and as if they were Ennis.  I'm pretty sure they came up with ENFJ for Jack, but I forget.

Whoa! If that's the case, then Jack and I are more alike than I thought!!
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: ednbarby on July 27, 2006, 08:39:14 pm
I feel empathy for both Jack & Ennis. However, I have a violent physical attraction toward Jack.

p.s.  Latjoreme, it's been very hot & humid here in Minnesota - approaching tropical rain forest dew points.  :P

Heh heh.  Welcome to my world.  On both counts.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 28, 2006, 01:36:47 pm
I was watching the Ang Lee film "Ride the Devil" last night and one of the turns of plot might shed some light on Lureen and Jack. In the movie, the main character played by Tobey Maguire sort of falls into a marriage. One day the preacher and witness just show up and his best friend tells him to go for it. I think something similar also happens in "The Wedding Banquet." Lee is showing us a character who doesn't have much control over their destiny. He seems to believe that people don't have much say over their lives, that society forces us into molds that we don't fit. When you think of it, this is an Asian concept. It's the American way, particularly the Western way, for rugged individualism to be the norm, but we see in Brokeback Mountain that that is a myth. Another movie that showed this dichotomy was Tom Horn. It's not an Ang Lee film, I don't remember who made it.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: dly64 on July 28, 2006, 06:45:52 pm
Lee is showing us a character who doesn't have much control over their destiny. He seems to believe that people don't have much say over their lives, that society forces us into molds that we don't fit. When you think of it, this is an Asian concept. It's the American way, particularly the Western way, for rugged individualism to be the norm, but we see in Brokeback Mountain that that is a myth.

Very well said. I would agree 100%. A big theme in BBM is the toll that rural homophobia takes on all those involved ... not only Jack and Ennis, but the women in their lives, their children, et.al. The pressure of societal mores and the need for self preservation cannot be minimized. Rugged individualism? As you have said … “that is a myth”.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: Bucky on July 29, 2006, 05:23:38 pm
As to the character that I am most like in the movie BBM it would be Jack.  I have always tried to be the peace maker instead of the exploding type.   I will explode if I am pushed absolutely over the edge like Jack was at the Thanksgiving dinner at his house in 1977.  L. D. Newsome went way over the line and only a total saint would not have done what Jack did.  In that scene in particular I always shout "go Jack go" and get a lot of satisfaction of him putting L.D. Newsome in his  place.

Jack is resilient but you have to be to succeed in life.  I do think though Jack became a lot more interested in Lureen when the bartender told him that her daddy had money and sold "big farm equipment such as $100,000 tractors."  I think that Jack loved Lureen as much as he could love any woman.  Jack by nature was sexually attracted to men not women.  It took an aggressive Lureen to seduce Jack in the back seat of her car.  Then Jack married Lureen and I think they became more like partners or best friends instead of lovers.   Lureen kept Jack from having to make business decisions or most other decisions and allowed him to concentrate on selling combines and then to go on his yearly trips to Wyoming to "fish with Ennis" and to see his folks.  It seems to me that Lureen never pushed Jack about their sex life although I know that she had to wonder why Jack didn't have the desires that most men would have for a sexy looking woman like herself.   I think for almost any gay man that Lureen would have been an ideal partner.  I know she would have for me because I hate "blowups" and with the exception of her father she kept Jack pretty well insulated from all the major stresses in life.  This was completely different from Ennis' situation in which Alma was constantly putting pressure on Ennis first to move to town and then to take different jobs.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 29, 2006, 05:34:30 pm
We really need a poll or a test or somthun to help each of us figure out if we are more like Ennis or Jack. Well, U may have it all figured out, but I ain't yet had the opportunity. I suspect I am more like Ennis, since I can't figure myself out!!
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: jpwagoneer1964 on July 29, 2006, 05:50:40 pm
We really need a poll or a test or somthun to help each of us figure out if we are more like Ennis or Jack. Well, U may have it all figured out, but I ain't yet had the opportunity. I suspect I am more like Ennis, since I can't figure myself out!!
I'm afraid I am much more like Ennis.
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: dly64 on July 29, 2006, 06:05:00 pm
Jack is resilient but you have to be to succeed in life.  I do think though Jack became a lot more interested in Lureen when the bartender told him that her daddy had money and sold "big farm equipment such as $100,000 tractors."  I think that Jack loved Lureen as much as he could love any woman.  Jack by nature was sexually attracted to men not women.  It took an aggressive Lureen to seduce Jack in the back seat of her car.  Then Jack married Lureen and I think they became more like partners or best friends instead of lovers.   Lureen kept Jack from having to make business decisions or most other decisions and allowed him to concentrate on selling combines and then to go on his yearly trips to Wyoming to "fish with Ennis" and to see his folks.  It seems to me that Lureen never pushed Jack about their sex life although I know that she had to wonder why Jack didn't have the desires that most men would have for a sexy looking woman like herself.   I think for almost any gay man that Lureen would have been an ideal partner.  I know she would have for me because I hate "blowups" and with the exception of her father she kept Jack pretty well insulated from all the major stresses in life.  This was completely different from Ennis' situation in which Alma was constantly putting pressure on Ennis first to move to town and then to take different jobs.

I agree with you up to a point. I agree that Jack became more interested in Lureen when he found out that she came from money. Where I would differ from you is that, IMO, Lureen and Jack were never partners. We can surmise that they were hardly lovers. I also doubt that they shared much of anything with each other. Lureen almost became “parent like” … “new model’s coming in this week, remember …. you’re the best combine salesman we got … the only combine salesman, in fact …”

As for Jack and Lureen’s sex life … I think you are right that she doesn’t push him, but I think it is because she has shut herself off from her emotions. She comes to the realization that their marriage was one of convenience. As time goes on, she throws herself into the business as a way to distract herself. It is not that she doesn’t want the sexual intimacy. She more than likely has racked her brain about why Jack and her don’t have sex like they did when they first were married (I am making an assumption there …. notice that her hair is free flowing up until they have been married a few years. Then it gets stiffer and blonder and her appearance becomes harsher and harsher. The more makeup she uses is a “mask” to hide her inner turmoil). 

I also think that Lureen had troubles respecting Jack. Notice her reaction when the guys in the shop that said,  “Didn’t that piss-ant used to ride bulls?” … “He used to try". Jack doesn’t stand up to her or her father. When Jack finally lets L.D. Newsom have it … Lureen cracks a smile, as if saying, “It’s about time!!!”
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: Bucky on July 29, 2006, 06:15:46 pm
I'm afraid I am much more like Ennis.
     


I haven't figured myself out either but I do know that in temperament that I am more like Jack than Ennis.  
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: Bucky on July 29, 2006, 06:40:29 pm
I agree with you up to a point. I agree that Jack became more interested in Lureen when he found out that she came from money. Where I would differ from you is that, IMO, Lureen and Jack were never partners. We can surmise that they were hardly lovers. I also doubt that they shared much of anything with each other. Lureen almost became “parent like” … “new model’s coming in this week, remember …. you’re the best combine salesman we got … the only combine salesman, in fact …”

As for Jack and Lureen’s sex life … I think you are right that she doesn’t push him, but I think it is because she has shut herself off from her emotions. She comes to the realization that their marriage was one of convenience. As time goes on, she throws herself into the business as a way to distract herself. It is not that she doesn’t want the sexual intimacy. She more than likely has racked her brain about why Jack and her don’t have sex like they did when they first were married (I am making an assumption there …. notice that her hair is free flowing up until they have been married a few years. Then it gets stiffer and blonder and her appearance becomes harsher and harsher. The more makeup she uses is a “mask” to hide her inner turmoil). 

I also think that Lureen had troubles respecting Jack. Notice her reaction when the guys in the shop that said,  “Didn’t that piss-ant used to ride bulls?” … “He used to try". Jack doesn’t stand up to her or her father. When Jack finally lets L.D. Newsom have it … Lureen cracks a smile, as if saying, “It’s about time!!!”

     


I agree with you that Lureen became almost "parent like" with Jack and I would guess that was the way that Jack wanted it.  I don't think Jack really liked making decisions and when he did make decisions his decisions were usually rejected.  Ennis rejected his suggestion about the "cow and calf operation."  It just seemed to me as if Jack was "put down" all of his life because most people viewed Jack as someone not to be taken seriously when in reality he really was capable and did have some good ideas.  He was referred to as "the pissant that used to ride the bulls" by L.D. Newsome's friend to which L.D. replied "he used to try."  Again Jack was put in a light of contempt by those around him.  His dad whose ranch was in such a run down condition must have not have had any ambition in life to better himself so how could he have mocked and had such contempt for Jack when he could do no better?   It was like Jack was considered the "village idiot" by those around him when really he tried to make decisions and who knows his suggestions may have been better than most of the others' decisions.  I think Jack had been "beaten down" verbally so many times that he lost the will to try and in his business life he just let Lureen make all of the decisions. 
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: Artiste on November 30, 2008, 04:31:55 pm
As said in the second post:
       I see Jack more as being openhearted and sensitive to everyone around him. As I understand him, all he wanted was a little bit of kindness, some sign of loving affection from the men in his life (his father, Mr. Aguirre, Ennis, Jimbo, Mr. Newsome), but he never received any, except for the little bit from Ennis on the mountain and during their reunion. Jack's personality centered and hinged on this prospect of love and kindness. If you notice in the film, Jack was never afraid to show kindness. And I think we can suspect that he learned that from his mother, as his father didn't seem to show him any and none of the other men that he encountered in the film did either.

There are some people in this world whose beings center around this perception of being loved. And I think Jack was one of those people. He pursued many "interests" such as rodeoing and ranching, but I think all in all, these were attempts to be recognized and loved by his father specifically. He wanted to make him proud so that his father would finally show some appreciation to him. Most of the men in his life seemed to avoid doing that.               


............

May I say that sure reveals much about Jack and others !!  Does Jack do so, because he is a gay homosexual  or bisexual man), and , therfore, is openhearted and sensitive to everyone around him... as you say and others could say too ??

More details ?

Au revoir,
hugs!
Title: Re: trying to make sense of Jack
Post by: Front-Ranger on December 01, 2008, 11:34:04 am
Thanks for unburying this wonderful topic, friend!
I enjoyed reading it again.