The YouTube version doesn't have any video -- just an image of smeared ketchup that looks like a blood-spattered wall.
Yep, it's a joke all right. As funny as any image of a gay man after being beaten to death that I've ever seen.
The video contains no footage of Nelson singing; only an image of a ketchup spill that resembles a blood-spattered wall. Varble has described the song as being "all in fun."
Co-author Wynn Varble described the song as being "all in fun." Here's a fun fiction illustration of a few rednecks putting what "ain't right" right:
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q135/talkstocoyotes/Brokebackattackscene-1.jpg)
Striped Wall has a horribly graphic closeup from that scene (which I'm not going to post here), at http://www.stripedwall.com/movies/Brokeback/brokebackmtn_3564.jpg You might want to check that one out; it's a real-knee-slapper. Especially in its full size.
((((Jack)))))
The link isnt working says error. I hate to think Willie wil do anything for money but if ithis is true he's a real loser.
Its a joke.
That ketchup-splattered still is a veiled threat. F*ck your fries.
Sorry do you mean angrily, "this is a JOKE.. grrr...." or "c'mon guys this is a joke"
If its the latter, well I think you're living in some fantasy world. Those lyrics and the ketchup bottle.. if its not meant to be blood whats the significance Milo? Can you please explain? Do Gay folk like their chips (sorry french fries) with tomato sauce - is that some sort of proven fact?? >:( ;) >:
I hadn't seen this thread till today... ugh. Absolutely right Amanda - trying to cash in on both sides of the fence.
"Joke" as in a parody. I think Willie is making fun of those who use Brokeback Mountain as a homophobic slur. Its like that song often sung by operatic sopranos titled, "I Hate Music, but I Like to Sing."
The ketchup bottle?? It suggests someone who was so shocked/surprised at experiencing something that s/he dropped the bottle they were holding. Its kinda old-school slapstick. Like when "sis" announces that she is pregnant, and "dad" drops his glass of water.
When I mentioned fries, I was talking about my own taste for them. In the US, ketchup goes with fries.
I don't live in a fantasy world. You have no idea what my world is like, so I'll thank you to stick to the subject at hand, and not attempt to analyze my personality. Its not productive, and you'll never get it right.
I hope you're right that it's meant as a parody, but I don't buy it.
I'm not selling it...Willie is. I'm just saying that, IMO, there's nothing in this song that's any "worse" than the BBM jokes made by Leno, Letterman, O'Brien, Kimmel, or any other on-air personality has made over the years.
Of course it's worse, Milo, because Willie profited from Brokeback Mountain. Do you not recognize the hypocrisy?
And I don't recall any late night talk-show jokes endorsing gay bashing, just ones about the gay cowboy movie, sheep, getting it on in tents or with the sheep, etc...not gay-supportive, but definitely not promoting violence against gays in the way this does.
They'll see it as an endorsement of their hatred of gay men. It doesn't matter what other kinds of messages Willie Nelson has put out there, or will put out there in the future. If the crowd I'm talking about hears this song, they will take it at face value. Nelson has been around long enough to know that, so if this was meant as a joke, he should have remembered who his audience might be.
Yeah, there's a whole lot of people out there who will see this as a joke -- a joke on gay people. I can hear the chuckles now.
I'm with you, Paul. Being from the south, I know just how the rednecks, homophobes, and the Bible thumpers will take this crap. They'll see it as an endorsement of their hatred of gay men. It doesn't matter what other kinds of messages Willie Nelson has put out there, or will put out there in the future. If the crowd I'm talking about hears this song, they will take it at face value. Nelson has been around long enough to know that, so if this was meant as a joke, he should have remembered who his audience might be.
Yeah, there's a whole lot of people out there who will see this as a joke -- a joke on gay people. I can hear the chuckles now.
I'm with you, Paul. Being from the south, I know just how the rednecks, homophobes, and the Bible thumpers will take this crap. They'll see it as an endorsement of their hatred of gay men.Yeah, I have read some of the comments people have left to this video on youtube. That´s exactly how it is.
The ketchup bottle?? It suggests someone who was so shocked/surprised at experiencing something that s/he dropped the bottle they were holding. Its kinda old-school slapstick. Like when "sis" announces that she is pregnant, and "dad" drops his glass of water.
I hope you're right that it's meant as a parody, but I don't buy it.
There's no context for that in the song; and for the benefit of our non-American members, dropping a ketchup bottle in moments of surprise and shock is not an American idiom. I doubt any American on this thread has heard of that before now. And I also doubt anyone here seriously believes that the resemblance to a blood spatter is a coincidence.
Ugh.I will too.
I bet he was teased - or worse - for having a song in BBM and then doing Cowboys Are Secretly Fond of Each Other, and this is his reaction to distance himself.
I agree with Paul, I've never liked Cowboys Are Secretly Fond of Each Other, it's disrespectful of gay men AND women, in the way it conflates the two.
One thing in fairness, or accuracy, the ketchup splat is NOT Willie Nelson's version.
But still, what the fuck?
I'm proud to see Brokie names I recognize in the comments section of the YouTube video. I'm about to go add mine.
People see what they want to see.And they don't see what they don't want to acknowledge.
There's no context for that in the song; and for the benefit of our non-American members, dropping a ketchup bottle in moments of surprise and shock is not an American idiom. I doubt any American on this thread has heard of that before now. And I also doubt anyone here seriously believes that the resemblance to a blood spatter is a coincidence.
I never said dropping a ketchup bottle was an American idiom. I said eating ketchup with fries is an American idiom. I said dropping a glass of water (or anything really) is a stock, old-school, slapstick gag. I'm sure plenty of people around the world, including Americans, are familiar with that.
I suppose some could interpret the ketchup as a blood splatter if they were looking for yet another reason to perpetuate an attitude of victimhood. I remember years ago, there was a TV commercial for Hefty trash bags. A white lady in suburbia takes a bag of trash out to the curb, and a black sanitation worker picks it up and tosses it into the back of the truck. They smile at each other and wave. A few black folks claimed that commercial was racist.
Besides, blood splatter patterns have unique characteristics because of the consistency of blood, and the fact that it is under pressure inside the body. Splattered blood doesn't just come out looking like a blob. It typically includes directional patters. Of course now someone is sure to come up with a picture of a blood stain that looks just like the ketchup to "prove" me wrong.
People see what they want to see.
And they don't see what that they don't want to acknowledge.
The eating ketchup with fries is no more an American idiom as it is in a UK idiom.
Really?? Try offering your average Joe from the Bronx malt vinegar with his fries and see what he has to say about that.
I'm talking about the sauce not vinegar. Thats a seperate - obviosluy UK or Euro specific - idiom Milo.
I was introduced to eating vinegar on fries by some Nuns from Louisiana!
I never said dropping a ketchup bottle was an American idiom. I said eating ketchup with fries is an American idiom. I said dropping a glass of water (or anything really) is a stock, old-school, slapstick gag. I'm sure plenty of people around the world, including Americans, are familiar with that.
Besides, blood splatter patterns have unique characteristics because of the consistency of blood, and the fact that it is under pressure inside the body. Splattered blood doesn't just come out looking like a blob. It typically includes directional patters. Of course now someone is sure to come up with a picture of a blood stain that looks just like the ketchup to "prove" me wrong.
What is a broken bottle considered in redneck circles?
A symbol of peace?
This wasn't a glass of water; and vaudeville is dead. Most of the people who saw that image knew perfectly well what it implied. And again, there's absolutely no context in the song for the schtick you're describing.
I doubt anyone needs to prove anything. Everyone here seems to get it.
Of course, it would be a bit more soothing to just let this thread devolve into an international discussion about condiments.
'Going down on' can mean to perform fellatio (or cunnilingus) on someone.
We really should have that discussion in the condiment aisle.
:laugh:
A broken bottle with a jagged end can be a very effective weapon in a fight, especially if you can hit your opponent in the face with it.
And then you can put the product on fries.
This wasn't a glass of water; and vaudeville is dead. Most of the people who saw that image knew perfectly well what it implied. And again, there's absolutely no context in the song for the schtick you're describing.
We really should have that discussion in the condiment aisle.:laugh:
:laugh:
As for the idea that Ain't Going Down on Brokeback Mountain is a misunderstood Picasso...(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/895/111tumblrkspij8wi6n1qz6.jpg)
kerfuffle
For those who don't see threats in these lyrics:
"That shit ain't right" --creates a mood of hate/moral condemnation against homosexuals
"Don't go reachin' for my rope" --implies a threat if an overture is made
"You can buy me a beer, then fuck off" --disrespectful and rude, as if it's OK to use a gay man for your own purposes, lead him on, then blow him off
I hear: "I don't like it." A statement of his heterosexuality
I hear: "keep your hands off me." A statement of his wish to avoid an unwanted advance
I hear: "let's keep it platonic." A statement that sets boundaries
So be it.
Being from Tennessee, knowing what broken bottles in barrooms are for, and knowing how the average yahoo is going to 'hear' these lyrics, I just don't see it the same way.
People are listening to this song in more places than just Tennessee. No doubt, different people in different places, and in different circumstances will interpret the song differently. Living in Philadelphia, I know how the average city boy is going to hear these lyrics. To them, this song will have the effect of a Saturday Night Live skit.
The idea that this song (with or without the ketchup) will incite gay-bashing is about as valid an argument as the one that goes: gangsta rap makes poor, young, black men violent.
We're not going to agree, Milo, and we don't need to.
(snip)
Let be.
Well, the majority of people posting on this thread see it as what it is.
For those who don't see threats in these lyrics:
"That shit ain't right" --creates a mood of hate/moral condemnation against homosexuals
"Don't go reachin' for my rope" --implies a threat if an overture is made
"You can buy me a beer, then fuck off" --disrespectful and rude, as if it's OK to use a gay man for your own purposes, lead him on, then blow him off
It's not cute. It's not funny. And the rednecks who hear this crap will take it as an endorsement of their homophobia.
I'm with you, Lynn. A lot of people seem to think that if a gay man hits on a straight man, the straight man is pretty much obligated to physically assault the gay man in order to prove his manhood. This shitty song speaks directly to that attitude. I have heard many men talk exactly this way back where I come from.
It's not cute. It's not funny. And the rednecks who hear this crap will take it as an endorsement of their homophobia.
I'm with you, Lynn. A lot of people seem to think that if a gay man hits on a straight man, the straight man is pretty much obligated to physically assault the gay man in order to prove his manhood. This shitty song speaks directly to that attitude. I have heard many men talk exactly this way back where I come from.
And tell you what, things are different in downtown Boston
So the fuck what? Plenty of them do fucking do it. Some gay men are dead because of this attitude. Many have been assaulted. And a great many are intimidated by the attitude.
Like I said, it is not funny. It is not cute.
Not very many people would lynch a black man or participate in a gangrape, but if dumbass Willie Nelson should be stupid enough to sing a snappy little song about those things, I wouldn't want to hum along.
First of all, Willie's song makes fun of homophobia, it doesn't advocate it. Secondly, there are no violent lyrics in this song. "Keep your hands off me" is miles away from "I'll kick your ass." Third, I understand men. That "if one ever touched me..." kind of talk is just that...talk. Its bravado.
I hear it making fun of homosexuals, where does it make fun of homophobia?
There is a character singing this song. This character is a homophobic cowboy. That's the joke.
The character is indeed a homophobic cowboy. What makes that a joke?
Willie's making fun of him.
How can you tell?
The cartoonish instrumentation is one tip off. Its also the way I'm hearing the lyrics. They're silly.
The instrumentation doesn't sound any more cartoonish to me than any of a dozen other songs.
What's silly about the lyrics?
Its arranged in an exaggerated style.
The double-entendres are a major comical element:
"I ain't going down"
"but don't go reaching for my rope"
"that last note sounded a bit queer"
Yes, and they all make fun of homosexuals as being ridiculous and end by stating flatly, "That ain't right."
Not to mention, "you can buy me a beer and then, fuck off." as if to say, spend your money on me, but stay the hell out of my life.
I gave my interpretation of those lines a few pages back:
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,36828.msg547857.html#msg547857
I'm looking for your evidence that the singer is being parodied, because it sure sounds like the subject of the song is being ridiculed to me.
I've given you my interpretation of the piece. I'm not sure what else you're asking for.
Remember the point of this website?
"It is my feeling that a story is not finished until it is read, and that the reader finishes it through his or her life experience, prejudices, world view and thoughts." - Annie Proulx
We bring our own life experiences to Brokeback Mountain, and it changed all of us in some way; otherwise, I doubt we'd still be interested in being here. Everything we see is viewed through the lens of our own experiences. This is just another example of that.
Let be.
It's like the interpretation of any given work, including BBM, you can view it any way you want, but the evidence for the way it is intended is contained within the work itself.
It could be argued that BBM is a warning against being gay, but the preponderance of internal evidence within the work suggests that that was not the author's intention.
But the trouble is not everyone one is in on the joke, and I am sure that the rednecks who hear this song will take it as an endorsement of their homophobia.
and it keeps straight men from being naturally affectionate and open with one another.
We both know my views on your supposed authority on masculinity. So please belt out another aria because I've heard this one before.
However, I should add that my sense of being different was not simply tied to my attraction. I was softer, gentler than the other boys. I didn't want to do the things they did. To me so many things about them seemed unusual and strange. I couldn't relate to them. I didn't understand them, but from the beginning I was interested in them.
And the problem with reaching consensus is that different people will look at various elements from different angles, glean different meanings, make different assumptions, etc., etc., etc.
I perform music that is hundreds of years old. There is not much consensus on the way a piece should be played or sung. There's not even consensus on what the composer's intent was in a given work.
That is something you and I most definately have in common, Milo! I perform music that is hundreds of years old. Violin, cello and piano. My favorite is baroque. But anything from between 1550 - 1850 is perfectly fine with me! :)
I think the composer's intent is whatever the listener feels in his heart. That is a personal viewpoint of mine though, although I've held that viewpoint ever since I was a kid. No two people ever interpret music in the exact same way. It speaks to the soul. I think the great composers knew this. :)
LMAO at the idea of people listening to Willie in NYC.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
This marks the first time I (English minor, mind you) have ever heard double-entendre used in reference to country music lyrics. American Pie, i.e. folk, yes...country music, no. It's charm is in the fact that it's not that sophisticated.
I've never had a problem understanding men. So I don't understand your response, considering that you wrote:
My voice is a little heavy for baroque opera...to some ears. My core repertoire has been developing in the direction of basso buffo roles from the bel canto literature: Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti. And the roles are a blast to perform!!
I hear it making fun of homosexuals, where does it make fun of homophobia?
We're all people. We all have intelligence. We all have observational skills. We all know men. And we all share our common humanity.
As for this "it's all talk" bullshit, I would like to point out that obviously it is not always "all talk."
If you think I said that men don't show affection, then you misunderstood me.
You can dismiss all the hateful, homophobic talk that some men engage in as bravado, but it does have an effect on gay men and straight men alike. It keeps them in a box. It keeps gay men in the closet, and it keeps straight men from being naturally affectionate and open with one another. And from where I come from "that shit ain't right" is not very far away from a threat of violence.
Obviously a woman can have profound insight into being a man. We're all gathered together on this board because of two male characters that a woman created.
It's the "talking smack" that gives licence to those who cross the line.
And the homophobic talk is a form of social control even if the threshold of violence isn't reached. Even that racist talk is a form of social control. It's an attempt to get those who hear it to tow the line. I know from experience that you pay a social price for resisting both of these pressures.
And what I meant was that men are restrained in their affection for one another out of fear of being perceived as gay.
And just because you're a man does not make you particularly insightful about anything, even in regards to what it's like being a man. Some people are just dim and unobservant.
What is it you think they are restraining? What is being held back?
I don't understand how you can dismiss the intrinsic understanding of someone who sits in the group. Yes, there may be elements that are best observed from outside the group, but that doesn't negate what the group members know about themselves. All the opera critic knows is what he sees on the stage. He has no idea what's going on in the pit, or backstage.
"It's a spoof" is an old dodge.
Part of that sharing is understanding that we come to the topic from different angles. Women understand men from a different angle, and with a different kind of understanding than do other men. We see this played out over and over again in music, literature, and the media in general. There have been a gazillion popular magazine articles titled along the lines of "What He Really Wants" or "What She Really Wants." Its commonly understood that men and women lack the insider's view of each other.
So when I explain the affection that I see between two guys who, for example, greet each other with a bear hug and a thump on the back, I'm doing so from an insider's perspective. When someone from the outside tells me that men aren't affectionate, I wonder why I see it, but they don't.
I can enjoy watching a game of cricket, even though I have no clue what is going on in the field.
LMAO at the idea of people listening to Willie in NYC.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I bet if anyone heard Willie Nelson in NYC, it was at the Hill Country BBQ.
As for this "it's all talk" bullshit, I would like to point out that obviously it is not always "all talk." Gay men are threatened. They are assaulted. Some of them have even been killed.
And it's not just "manly" fun and games either. It's a form of social control.
I bet if anyone heard Willie Nelson in NYC, it was at the Hill Country BBQ.
;)
This whole topic has morphed into "what a man is" ..... again.
Why does every thread that a certain person comes on turn into this?
Look at the threads and you'll figure it out.
Living in Texas and thinking that people in NYC don't listen to Willie Nelson is almost like me thinking that people in NYC (or Texas) don't listen to Bob Dylan or Prince.
Interesting, the assumption that a non-androphile gay man wouldn't have any insight about how men think.
Which shared characteristics are most important in determining mutual understanding in any given situation varies, depending on the individuals and the circumstances.
Look at the threads and you'll figure it out.
Did I skip a step?
Yep.
Thirty years ago, two guys greeting each other with a bear hug and a thump on the back was looked on with suspicion. It's only come back into style since the restrictions on homosexuality have relaxed.
The reaction of "rednecks," "yahoos," and other likely gay-bashers to this song led to a discussion about how men in different parts of the country might interpret the lyrics. That in led to a turn in the direction of how straight men react to the advances of homosexual men. Which led to bravado and men "talking smak." Which led to Gary's assertion that homophobia "keeps straight men from being naturally affectionate and open with one another." Which led to my assertion that men are indeed affectionate and open with one another. Which led to Gary questioning my understanding of men. Which led to where we are now.
Did I skip a step?
Thirty years ago, the only guys the hug-n-thump thing were bruthas in da 'hood. Gangs also had special handshakes/embraces that signified membership. I would theorize that it slowly seeped out into the general population along with other elements of hip-hop culture.
The cartoonish instrumentation is one tip off. Its also the way I'm hearing the lyrics. They're silly.
My experience suggests hip-hop has little or nothing to do with it, because the people involved have no contact with, nor interest in, hip-hop.
As a fellow musician, I certainly dont see it as being a cartoonist intrumentation.
Interesting thing about how cultural elements seep in...you don't have to be part of the culture--or even interested in it--to assimilate the elements. Suburban kids are wearing hip-hop-inspired fashions even though they might not listen to hip-hop music. There are tons of young people out there who have never broken the law, yet they sport prison-style tattoos. The "fist-bump" is another example of an element that has seeped out of hip-hop. There's no telling which element will become popular, and which ones won't.
Oh, I think old Willie is just looking for some media attention.
He doesn't play the big concert venues anymore.
He doesn't draw them in like he did in his early days.
I was wondering if this particular song was a financial move to placate former fans he might have alienated with BBM. I don't know his demographics with regard to homophobic vs homosexual and which group generates him the most revenue, but I'd guess it ain't us.
Pass the brownies, Alice. Boy these brownies are good!
The people I'm talking about aren't any where near that age group.
I think you are giving hip-hop as exaggerated an influence as some people give gay culture.
Clarissa, I'd love it if you could provide an example. I've exhausted most of my knowledge and find symbolism and metaphor but not double entendre. Admittedly, I don't listen to new country.
If the violently homophobic message was universally obvious, I would have expected that there would have been quite a bit of outrage expressed over at DCF when this was posted. I couldn't find any.
The people I'm talking about aren't any where near that age group.
I think you are giving hip-hop as exaggerated an influence as some people give gay culture.
“What do you get if you play a country song backwards?” — “You get your wife back, you get your dog back, you get your truck back…”
And it should be unnecessary to point out that this isn't a discussion about hip-hop.
As if the discussion getting diverted into yet another snarkorama about 'androphiles' wasn't bad enough.
And it should be unnecessary to point out that this isn't a discussion about hip-hop.
As if the discussion getting diverted into yet another snarkorama about 'androphiles' wasn't bad enough.
Again? Jesus H. ...
;)
Interesting, the assumption that a non-androphile gay man wouldn't have any insight about how men think.
I was wondering if this particular song was a financial move to placate former fans he might have alienated with BBM...
Oh, I think old Willie is just looking for some media attention. He doesn't play the big concert venues anymore. He doesn't draw them in like he did in his early days.
You'd think that he would have left that track off, if he's a complete homophobe.
Totally. He didn't even write the tune. It completely lacks the artistry of any of his real songs (the tune itself, and the shitty production by Chesney).
It does smack of classic backpedaling. But "Cowboys are Frequently Secretly Fond of Each Other" is also on the Lost Highway CD, which is interesting. You'd think that he would have left that track off, if he's a complete homophobe.
Anybody who's been a redneck knows that saying something in a joking manner is often used as a safe way of telling the truth, because it can always be followed by an, "I was just joshin" disclaimer. With this song, we don't even get that.
Heh. Friend, that tactic ain't just limited to rednecks.
And besides, I'm not much interested in the intent of those who sing the song. I don't like it because I know what the homophobes will take from it if they should happen to hear it. And I know that Willie Nelson knows how the homophobes will take it.
Heh. Friend, that tactic ain't just limited to rednecks.
Following that logic, Dave Chappelle, Chris Rock, Martin Lawrence, the Wayans brothers, and every other black comedian should just find new careers because they're giving ammunition to racists.
love your new avatar, Jeff!
Yes, let´s look (stare) at Jack for a while.
Chris Rock, Martin Lawrence, and the Wayans brothers don't pretend they're not making fun of what they're making fun of.
Neither is Varble.
Following that logic, Dave Chappelle, Chris Rock, Martin Lawrence, the Wayans brothers, and every other black comedian should just find new careers because they're giving ammunition to racists.
Following that logic, Willie Nelson is gay.
Have we been missing the signs all these years? Maybe the bandanna and the ponytail were clues. ...:laugh:
I was never a fan of W.N., but did kinda like him for his seemingly easygoing attitude over the years. It's a real shame he so thoughtlessly offended his gay fans with this song. It saddens me because everybody looses; he looses a growing fan base (and gay fans tend to be a loyal and supportive bunch), and his gay fans loose him. Just goes to show ya how homophobia is a double edged sword and cuts both ways. :-\
Have we been missing the signs all these years? Maybe the bandanna and the ponytail were clues. ...
Maybe the song "Cowboys are Secretly Frequently Fond of Each Other" was a teensy clue.
Maybe the song "Cowboys are Secretly Frequently Fond of Each Other" was a teensy clue.
Totally. He didn't even write the tune. It completely lacks the artistry of any of his real songs (the tune itself, and the shitty production by Chesney).
And it is the gay fans that tend to have the most money. Sorry, but that is a stereotype that happens to be true much of the time.
Trust me, he will be feeling the financial pain from this atrocious blunder of his...
And it is the gay fans that tend to have the most money. Sorry, but that is a stereotype that happens to be true much of the time. And not only that, but gay people tend to throw money at their icons. Just look at Bette Midler, Cher, Madonna, Janet Jackson, hell, even Kathy Griffin. They wouldn't be where they are today if it wasn't for their gay fans. We support our icons.
Trust me, he will be feeling the financial pain from this atrocious blunder of his...
and about this dicussion. If the song is a joke, then what exactly is the joke?
I guess one could make a case for considering it a joke on people who don't know homophobia when it's as plain as the nose on Dick Chaney's face. :P
Or it could be a joke on those in the gay community who take themselves too seriously.
I'd like to suggest that one of the good writers here put this on Willie Nelson's Wikipedia page. There's no mention of it there.very good idea
Unlike.