BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum

The World Beyond BetterMost => Anything Goes => Topic started by: oilgun on July 24, 2009, 07:23:34 pm

Title: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: oilgun on July 24, 2009, 07:23:34 pm
This topic was split off from a thread in Current Events and placed here for continuation of the discussion.

Meryl
Co-Mod, Current Events



No. Jess got booted out of here, so she went and started her own community. Many of the conservatives followed because:

- we like Jess
- our POVs tend to cause flame wars over here
- some felt that our conservative threads were being hijacked
- some of felt that moderators were not treating them fairly
- nobody goes after the person when they run out of ideas on the topic
- no gay dogma, or leftist preaching
- no crybabies, no drama queens, no sissies, and no misandry

 
What about 'fatties', are those allowed?  ::)

Anyway,  thanks for replying, even if your answer was somewhat contemptuous in tone.
I didn't stay there long, I just noticed a lot of familiar posters and they seemed to be complaining about this place quite a bit.  That's what prompted my question.

I didn't even know that Jess had been banned from this site, I wondered where she went.  Also Artiste.


Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 24, 2009, 08:20:07 pm
No. Jess got booted out of here, so she went and started her own community. Many of the conservatives followed because:

- we like Jess
- our POVs tend to cause flame wars over here
- some felt that our conservative threads were being hijacked
- some of felt that moderators were not treating them fairly
- nobody goes after the person when they run out of ideas on the topic
- no gay dogma, or leftist preaching
- no crybabies, no drama queens, no sissies, and no misandry

Well, I'm glad you found a place more to your liking.

However, I must say the copying of our very posts from here , onto that site for ridicule is a
little disturbing.  Not to mention unfair.

But......  shit happens.

 ;)

Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: Luvlylittlewing on July 24, 2009, 09:41:51 pm
Well, I'm glad you found a place more to your liking.

However, I must say the copying of our very posts from here , onto that site for ridicule is a
little disturbing.  Not to mention unfair.
But......  shit happens.

 ;)



And cowardly?
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: oilgun on July 24, 2009, 10:07:48 pm
I've been quoted. How flattering!

http://retreat.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,316.msg4914.html#msg4914

Page after page of childish bitching & insults directed at the posters here who have an "alternative POV" to theirs. What is this, grade school?  I feel like I need a shower...


Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: Kerry on July 25, 2009, 12:38:10 am
I suggest we get this thread back on topic.  I don't know the best place to discuss the issue of post-copying and off-site personal attacks that has come up, but for sure it's not in this thread.  Let's move past it and return to the topic at hand.

Thanks,

Meryl
Co-Mod, Current Events Forum

I agree, Meryl. Let's move on and get back on topic. Before doing so, however, could I request that milomorris' post that relates to crybabies, drama queens and sissies please be amended to delete the final dot point? It may not be a personal attack, but it is most certainly an attack and has no place here at BetterMost.
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: milomorris on July 25, 2009, 02:05:22 am
However, I must say the copying of our very posts from here , onto that site for ridicule is a
little disturbing.  Not to mention unfair.

Hey...life is unfair, and we don't exist to make you happy. Get used to it.
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: milomorris on July 25, 2009, 02:07:47 am
I agree, Meryl. Let's move on and get back on topic. Before doing so, however, could I request that milomorris' post that relates to crybabies, drama queens and sissies please be amended to delete the final dot point? It may not be a personal attack, but it is most certainly an attack and has no place here at BetterMost.

Why? Is honesty now under attack??

Give me a good reason.
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: retropian on July 25, 2009, 07:18:49 am
If I understand correctly there is a new Blog or site created by former Bettermost member Jess (injest) where it members, those who self-identify as “conservative” can discuss whatever topic they like without fear of opposition or contradiction? And further, are copying posts from Bettermost members for ridicule, without that person knowing that is done therefore not even providing the opportunity for rebuttal, expansion, clarification etc.(if that person desired to do so), which is nothing but cowardly. All because they feel victimized by “liberal” members here who won’t concede to their “conservative” arguments?

I think conservative Bettermost members, or those who think they are conservative can only blame themselves. Bettermost was setup in response to an amazing film that will live in our hearts, truly, forever. It is a film that concerned the lives of two gay men who could not, because of societal restrictions and internalized fear, live the life they should have. The people with whom this film resonated the most are gay men, followed by straight women, a few gay women, and a tiny number of straight men (as far as I know). Like it or not, most gay men, and most of their supporters, think of themselves as liberal. Of course one can be socially liberal and fiscally conservative etc. Most people have a blend of “liberal” and “conservative” views, and you’d be surprised at how much overlap there is. Knowing that most people in the gay community think of themselves as liberal and the Bettermost membership probably mostly made up of gay men, a conservative person should know that if they post a supposedly conservative view they will get a lot of disagreement, especially when that viewpoint is presented in pompous, arrogant and condescending ways.

It seems to me they have become what they claim to detest. They have created a place where they can commiserate with one another about how victimized they are at the hands of the “liberal elite”, over which they claim superiority (it’s a fascistic outlook to feel victimized at the hands of those to whom you feel you are clearly superior). They have created a place where negativity rules, where there is little discussion of positive and affirming values but mere sneering and condescension of what they perceive to be “liberal” values making is no more than a reactionary mire. Well, go for it and please don’t troll here.
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: milomorris on July 25, 2009, 08:29:06 am
If I understand correctly there is a new Blog or site created by former Bettermost member Jess (injest) where it members, those who self-identify as “conservative” can discuss whatever topic they like without fear of opposition or contradiction?

Opposition and contradiction were never the problem. Retribution is the problem.
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 09:16:11 am
Hey...life is unfair, and we don't exist to make you happy. Get used to it.

Hey, if it makes you happy....... gives you some feeling of joy...... go for it.

 :)
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 09:31:45 am
Meryl did ask us not to discuss this anymore in this thread.

If we want to continue it, maybe it should be taken to a blog.

 
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: Marge_Innavera on July 25, 2009, 10:13:41 am
Well, I'm glad you found a place more to your liking.

However, I must say the copying of our very posts from here , onto that site for ridicule is a
little disturbing.  Not to mention unfair.

But......  shit happens.

I'm going to leave one more comment here about that, and that's all on the subject I'll post. I understand why the mods don't want this to develop into a full-blown thread; but sometimes "let's just not discuss this anymore" amounts to leaving offensive statements unchallenged.  edited to add -- not the comments I quoted at the top of the message!

I posted that link to the other forum because, as someone mentioned, posts from this forum were being held up to ridicule by people who feel that a recent expulsion was due to the poster's political views or to "honesty".  The moderators haven't taken me into their confidence about that and there's no reason they should; however, as someone who's been posting in this part of the forum for awhile I can attest to a long period where thread after thread after thread quickly degenerated into a screamfest. And in a very high percentage of those cases the conversation started out cordially until one or two participants started picking fights, tossing out personal and quasi-personal insults (e.g., coy references to "libs", "sissies", deliberately misspelling posters' names, etc.) and other disruptive actions only marginally related to the subject. And IMO that's the reason for the expulsion.

The people in the conservative blog have a "right" to snark and revel in perceived victimization all they like, in that no one here has the authority to stop them. However, no one should be surprised if they quote posts from this forum and someone here responds. If you habitually hike through cow pastures with a blindfold on, you've no one to blame but yourself if someone, somewhere, observes that there's a strong odor of cow crap in the vicinity.

And oh, BTW, we can probably add "no Muslims" to "no crybabies, no drama queens, no sissies, and no misandry" judging from the samples I've read.


(steps down off soapbox)
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 10:49:45 am
I'm already in dutch with Meryl, but I am going to say this.

We have a right to be angry and our post being copied and ridiculed, but I think they win
when we get angry.

I think the best solution for me is, if there are certain subjects that we want to discuss, the ones
we know are going to be copied and posted elsewhere, it would be best to take them to a
personal blog. 

We would have more control there.  Or, we could continue to give them access, and something to
cackle over.  Something that seems to be needed. Bless their heart.

I admit I have posted personal attacks, or so I've been told.  I am not as good as some at posting
in words that keep me under the radar.

I don't even want to try anymore. 

I don't want the mods jobs to be any harder then it already is.

Heck, I even thought about cross posting one of their posts here, but that would be stooping
to their level.

It's over, and I say we just don't feed the kitty anymore.
The kitty always goes off looking for food elsewhere then.

 ;D
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: milomorris on July 25, 2009, 11:22:37 am
So as not to further disrupt the "kissing" thread.

I posted that link to the other forum because, as someone mentioned, posts from this forum were being held up to ridicule by people who feel that a recent expulsion was due to the poster's political views or to "honesty".  The moderators haven't taken me into their confidence about that and there's no reason they should; however, as someone who's been posting in this part of the forum for awhile I can attest to a long period where thread after thread after thread quickly degenerated into a screamfest. And in a very high percentage of those cases the conversation started out cordially until one or two participants started picking fights, tossing out personal and quasi-personal insults (e.g., coy references to "libs", "sissies", deliberately misspelling posters' names, etc.) and other disruptive actions only marginally related to the subject. And IMO that's the reason for the expulsion.

The problem with kicking Jess out specifically is that these types of quasi-personal insults had been aimed at her, and in her admittedly un-sophisticated attempts to defend herself, she was routinely cited while her attackers were not.

Quasi-personal attacks on here from the liberal side have included items like "fascist," "homophobe," "butch," and "apologist." So there's plenty of grenade tossing from both sides. 

And oh, BTW, we can probably add "no Muslims" to "no crybabies, no drama queens, no sissies, and no misandry" judging from the samples I've read.

Just so you know, the "no crybabies..." line was my personal touch. While a few others at The Retreat feel that way too, those are the kinds of people I personally don't like. I wouldn't include Muslims in that list because I don't have a problem with Muslims. That's Artiste's issue. 
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: retropian on July 25, 2009, 11:30:26 am
You know what, I left Bettermost a while ago because of this uncaring cruel attitude towards people.

But having signed on and looked around "The Retreat" I had to come back and tell you exactly what I think of the behaviour over there.

It is appalling  >:( ... and all of you at the retreat should be ashamed of yourselves.   :-\ 

Discussing people in a constructive manner is one thing but taking nasty little cheap potshots at them is quite another.  And doing so in a place where people can see what you've written about them but are unable to defend themselves is cruel and incredibly cowardly .... I'm pretty sure you've done it deliberately to upset and hurt people ....one of the comments in your "private or public" thread suggests just that.

I guess Gary should be flattered that you can't stop thinking about him.  He is a wonderful kind caring funny sensitive man, and if you weren't so blinded by your own bitter hatred you would see that too.

SHAME ON YOU ALL!!!! >:(

Susiebell

Hi Susiebell! It's nice to see you back. I hope you'll stay and not let anyone push you off again. I agree with you about Gary! He's a lovely person. We've been communicating off and on since the old IMDB days. I admire is erudition, and his good nature. Personally I don't think it's a bad thing for these people to have what they've created. They can express their true feelings, mostly hatred, and demonstrate just what kind of people they really are; the kind of people we suspected they were all along. I think Gary should be flattered too. I would be! LOL!
Ian
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 11:31:00 am
Well, I think anthing posted here will certainly be copied onto Jess' forum, so I'm not going to
give you anymore fodder.

Poster Beware.

 ;)
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: milomorris on July 25, 2009, 11:33:08 am
And cowardly?

No more cowardly than copying and pasting a post from any other blog like DailyKos, HuffPo, Bilerico, AfterElton, etc., etc., and discussing it here where the author is not available to defend themselves.
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: milomorris on July 25, 2009, 11:41:29 am
You know what, I left Bettermost a while ago because of this uncaring cruel attitude towards people.

I'm only uncaring and cruel to people who have done everything they can to disrespect me personally. Disagreeing with me is one thing. Impugning my character is another matter entirely. So you don't like my take on a particular topic? Fine. Let's talk about it. My personal tastes, fears, etc. are not up for debate. And the amateur psychoanalysis that some people apply in the midst of reasoned discussions is not only insulting and disrespectful, but it has been used frequently to discredit a person making a point.

I'm not in this world to like everybody. And there is nobody I don't like who has not given me cause.
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: Luvlylittlewing on July 25, 2009, 03:25:47 pm
No more cowardly than copying and pasting a post from any other blog like DailyKos, HuffPo, Bilerico, AfterElton, etc., etc., and discussing it here where the author is not available to defend themselves.

It is cowardly when you cut and paste threads from this site, sneer at them and then make it so others aren't able to respond.  That is cowardly and really sort of pathetic.
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 03:30:02 pm
It is cowardly when you cut and paste threads from this site, sneer at them and then make it so others aren't able to respond.  That is cowardly and really sort of pathetic.

It's called boredom. 
Sometimes people just want to fight.

You know what they say.......  the people you talk about the most are the ones you are jealous of and see
as a threat.

 ;)
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: Luvlylittlewing on July 25, 2009, 03:36:36 pm
It's called boredom. 
Sometimes people just want to fight.

You know what they say.......  the people you talk about the most are the ones you are jealous of and see
as a threat.

 ;)

You're probably right, and I'm not really shocked, or surprised, or anything like that.  Actually, I've been out of the discussion, but saw red when I heard that Gary was being attacked over there.  I couldn't stay over in Satan's lair for long; I had to get out of there, pronto.  I don't really care that Jess has started a hate forum, but I have a problem when a dear friend of mine is being ridiculed behind his back.
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: milomorris on July 25, 2009, 03:36:46 pm
It is cowardly when you cut and paste threads from this site, sneer at them and then make it so others aren't able to respond.  That is cowardly and really sort of pathetic.

I honestly am not understanding what the difference is between cross-posting from here and "sneering," and pasting something from any other blog and discussing/analyzing/criticizing it without the author's knowledge or feedback. Why is one acceptable, and the other not??
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 03:38:38 pm
Well, I have a problem when members here copy and post our post there, but, if it gives them some
kind of thrill........  whatever strange thrill that must be, then good on them.

Sometimes it just makes people feel big and important.

 
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 03:40:59 pm
So anyway.......  we all love Gary for the sweet soul that he is.

He has many friends here, and appreciate him for his ways.
That is all that is important.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 03:44:53 pm
I would never call someone a 'tard.

Well, not since I was in 2nd grade anyway.

 :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: Luvlylittlewing on July 25, 2009, 03:47:33 pm
I honestly am not understanding what the difference is between cross-posting from here and "sneering," and pasting something from any other blog and discussing/analyzing/criticizing it without the author's knowledge or feedback. Why is one acceptable, and the other not??

The author(s) of those articles copied and posted here are probably flattered that someone chose to discuss his/her missives.  If not, why write them and put them out there in the first place?  Besides, whether the authors know that we're supposedly cutting their articles to shreads does not stop them from coming here and defending themselves.  They can do that.  Posting threads from this site to The "retreat" and allowing others to read catty comments about those threads/posters but blocking people from responding is cowardly and pathethic.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 03:58:03 pm
You know, we all could set here and trash Jess on this forum.
What's the point.  She's gone.  We go on to better things.

I am happy for the ones that followed her and that they feel they have a place
they belong now. That's great.

However, the fact that they feel the need to continue to come here and
copy and post and ridicule everyone posts, tells me they might not be that
content.

If they were, why do they keep worrying about what we are saying and doing.

I say we just don't worry about them.  Ignore it and take the higher road.

They obviously have some deep issues.

We really all should be flattered they are so interested.

 If they don't get why we are upset with what they are doing, then
mores the pity.
Ain't gonna change.
 ;)
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 03:59:14 pm
You guys are the greatest.  Thanks so much Marie and Bailey.   :-* :-*

 :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*

Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: milomorris on July 25, 2009, 04:06:34 pm
The author(s) of those articles copied and posted here are probably flattered that someone chose to discuss his/her missives.  If not, why write them and put them out there in the first place?  Besides, whether the authors know that we're supposedly cutting their articles to shreads does not stop them from coming here and defending themselves.  They can do that.  Posting threads from this site to The "retreat" and allowing others to read catty comments about those threads/posters but blocking people from responding is cowardly and pathethic.

OK. So its not the cross-posting and conversation going on over there, its the fact that others are prohibited from participating. That I can understand. Maybe its not "fair." But I don't think its reasonable for anyone here to expect that Jess is going to let you in after being kicked off this board. She's allowed to pick and chose who her friends are.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 04:08:10 pm
Does anyone here want to go over there?

Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: Luvlylittlewing on July 25, 2009, 04:09:14 pm
Good points, Marie.  And there's something else that I'd like to point out.  Posts from sites like Hoffpo, etc. have generally been polished and worked on until the author is satisfied with them and relatively sure they are making their case clearly.  Posts here are generally part of an ongoing discussion.  They are usually not meant to be the final word in what someone thinks about a particular topic.  

Yes, Gary, you're right.  And to add to that, we're a community and were once friends (for the most part) until discussing our political leanings polairized some of us.  The people whose articles we posted here to discuss we didn't know from adam and were not friends, part of our community. 
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: Luvlylittlewing on July 25, 2009, 04:11:10 pm
OK. So its not the cross-posting and conversation going on over there, its the fact that others are prohibited from participating. That I can understand. Maybe its not "fair." But I don't think its reasonable for anyone here to expect that Jess is going to let you in after being kicked off this board. She's allowed to pick and chose who her friends are.

Like I said, I don't care, really.  I have no desire to go over there.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 04:11:32 pm
Milo, I think you are missing the point.

For me, my issue is I feel betrayed by members here that take my posts over there for the
simple purpose of mocking me as an individual.

It's proven that I need to be very careful what I post cause I can only believe it will be carried over
there for entertainment purposes.  If ya wanna call it that.

Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 04:13:17 pm
Yes, Gary, you're right.  And to add to that, we're a community and were once friends (for the most part) until discussing our political leanings polairized some of us.  The people whose articles we posted here to discuss we didn't know from adam and were not friends, part of our community. 

Why it is best not to discuss politics !

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I learned that with my brother !
 ::)
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: milomorris on July 25, 2009, 04:14:49 pm
Good points, Marie.  And there's something else that I'd like to point out.  Posts from sites like Hoffpo, etc. have generally been polished and worked on until the author is satisfied with them and relatively sure they are making their case clearly.  Posts here are generally part of an ongoing discussion.  They are usually not meant to be the final word in what someone thinks about a particular topic.  

1. What about people who post the author's article, along with the readers' comments from said blog? Aren't those comments the same type of conversational posts that we get here?

2. I'm not sure why the lack of polish should matter. People have to learn that this is the Internet, and your posts--no matter how--off-the-top-of-the-head are being made public. If one is not communicating clearly, and that is causing misunderstandings or disagreements, take the time to clarify. I think most of us here do that already.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on July 25, 2009, 04:22:21 pm
Milo, I think you are missing the point.

For me, my issue is I feel betrayed by members here that take my posts over there for the
simple purpose of mocking me as an individual.

I'm not missing the point, this is the first time I've heard you articulate the point. So you feel betrayed. That's an answer.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 04:26:24 pm
I'm not missing the point, this is the first time I've heard you articulate the point. So you feel betrayed. That's an answer.

Yes, the things said on there were pretty mean spirited, and brutal about people I do care about on here.
It wasn't about issues, it was very personal. 

I would ask you if you found out someone was saying those kinds of things about you, how would you react?
seriously?

Would you trust that person again?  Even want to communicate with them?
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 04:37:35 pm
Good point Gary.

Wanna cup of coffee?  A piece of cherry cake?

 :)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on July 25, 2009, 04:48:02 pm
Would you trust that person again?  Even want to communicate with them?

Nope.

I think I'm correct in saying that everyone who has been criticized over there already has some negative history with the individuals posting the criticism. So it doesn't seem to me that there is any love lost. Who knows, though...I could be wrong about that.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 04:55:38 pm
Nope.

I think I'm correct in saying that everyone who has been criticized over there already has some negative history with the individuals posting the criticism. So it doesn't seem to me that there is any love lost. Who knows, though...I could be wrong about that.

It's all good.

I am happy to oblige.

Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: milomorris on July 25, 2009, 05:03:32 pm
If these same people were sitting across from you at your kitchen table, and you had a discussion with them over a cup of coffee, you might get a different impression of where they stand and what they think.

Absolutely. Being able to communicate vocally and with movement/body language certainly does make things more clear.

I got an interesting comment from a Brokie I met in the flesh. I have known him via one of the BBM groups on Yahoo since I first saw the movie. I was in his hometown for a business trip last year, and he and I met for lunch one day. We talked about all kinds of stuff, and at the end of the conversation, he said "you're nothing like what I expected." I said, "well...you can't hear me online." He smiled and nodded.
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: brokeplex on July 25, 2009, 06:05:00 pm
Opposition and contradiction were never the problem. Retribution is the problem.

Milo, this thread is funny as hell.

Gee what a shame all the leftists have me on "ignore", for the first time in quite a while, I would love to chat away with them.

Oh, by the way, Jess's Retreat certainly isn't just a haven for conservatives, as one of the above posters opines. I mean Milo you are there, and you have always seemed to me to be a reasonable, rational liberal of the old style, the type of liberal I can respect. not one of the current crop of leftists that dominates the Democrat party. that said, yes, we have no leftists on the Retreat site.
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: brokeplex on July 25, 2009, 06:17:47 pm
1. What about people who post the author's article, along with the readers' comments from said blog? Aren't those comments the same type of conversational posts that we get here?

2. I'm not sure why the lack of polish should matter. People have to learn that this is the Internet, and your posts--no matter how--off-the-top-of-the-head are being made public. If one is not communicating clearly, and that is causing misunderstandings or disagreements, take the time to clarify. I think most of us here do that already.



I personally will not copy anything posted on Bettermost and post it anywhere else. Where is the motivation in doing so? If someone wishes to speak with me, they can PM me from Bettermost and I will respond.

That said, however, I am not sure why anyone is getting their shorts in a wad because someone posted their comments on another web site. What are they hiding from, and why do they care?
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: serious crayons on July 25, 2009, 07:03:46 pm
why do they care?

I couldn't agree more, personally. I don't give a damn what anyone might copy of mine and discuss on the other site. If anything, it's flattering that people who have left or semi-quit BetterMost are still all abuzz over stuff that gets posted here. Have at it!  :)


Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: delalluvia on July 25, 2009, 07:09:59 pm
I honestly am not understanding what the difference is between cross-posting from here and "sneering," and pasting something from any other blog and discussing/analyzing/criticizing it without the author's knowledge or feedback. Why is one acceptable, and the other not??

I think the difference is that we know each other, which isn't the same with other blog/article writers and entries, so people are bound to take it personally.
Title: Re: Offisite Discussion of Bettermost Posts
Post by: mariez on July 25, 2009, 07:55:49 pm
I couldn't agree more, personally. I don't give a damn what anyone might copy of mine and discuss on the other site. If anything, it's flattering that people who have left or semi-quit BetterMost are still all abuzz over stuff that gets posted here. Have at it!  :)

Exactly. It strikes me as peculiar, not to mention ironic, that someone would start a forum as a "retreat" from another forum, but then have the need to use quotes from the forum from which you supposedly "retreated" as fodder!   :laugh:  Seems odd, and kind of sad, that the members wouldn't have enough to say to each other to keep a conversation going without relying on Bettermost.  I guess it's hard to move on.
Title: Re: Offisite Discussion of Bettermost Posts
Post by: milomorris on July 25, 2009, 08:10:47 pm
Seems odd, and kind of sad, that the members wouldn't have enough to say to each other to keep a conversation going without relying on Bettermost.  I guess it's hard to move on.

There's plenty of fodder at places like Bilerico, and AfterElton to keep us going for years. At this point in time, Jess is focused on the noise being made here. After all, y'all did just kick her ass to the curb a few weeks ago. As time progresses, we will find other content to "sneer" at. Rest assured.
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: milomorris on July 25, 2009, 08:13:36 pm
I think the difference is that we know each other

I understand what you mean, but I doubt that we really do know each other. This is the Internet after all.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: louisev on July 25, 2009, 08:18:45 pm
I want royalties, dammit.
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: delalluvia on July 25, 2009, 08:20:41 pm
I understand what you mean, but I doubt that we really do know each other. This is the Internet after all.

You're right.  'Know' as in as much as we can 'know' without BM turning into a dating site.  ;D
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: milomorris on July 25, 2009, 08:20:54 pm
I couldn't agree more, personally. I don't give a damn what anyone might copy of mine and discuss on the other site. If anything, it's flattering that people who have left or semi-quit BetterMost are still all abuzz over stuff that gets posted here. Have at it!  :)

Yup. And nobody should assume anything even remotely resembling gravity, discretion, or prudence from people one meets online. You really don't know them. All one sees is pixels and text strings. Reality might possibly be quite different.
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: milomorris on July 25, 2009, 08:22:25 pm
You're right.  'Know' as in as much as we can 'know' without BM turning into a dating site.  ;D


That was GOOD!!!


 ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 08:53:14 pm
Yup. And nobody should assume anything even remotely resembling gravity, discretion, or prudence from people one meets online. You really don't know them. All one sees is pixels and text strings. Reality might possibly be quite different.

That is true, and that is why you have to be careful what you talk about with whom.

Title: Re: Offisite Discussion of Bettermost Posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 08:55:49 pm
Exactly. It strikes me as peculiar, not to mention ironic, that someone would start a forum as a "retreat" from another forum, but then have the need to use quotes from the forum from which you supposedly "retreated" as fodder!   :laugh:  Seems odd, and kind of sad, that the members wouldn't have enough to say to each other to keep a conversation going without relying on Bettermost.  I guess it's hard to move on.

Yes, so it would appear.
Title: Re: Offisite Discussion of Bettermost Posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 08:57:31 pm
There's plenty of fodder at places like Bilerico, and AfterElton to keep us going for years. At this point in time, Jess is focused on the noise being made here. After all, y'all did just kick her ass to the curb a few weeks ago. As time progresses, we will find other content to "sneer" at. Rest assured.

As a defense of the mods here, Jess had a little something to do with ending up on that curb.
It takes two to tango !
 :)

I am sure she will move on in time.
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: Luvlylittlewing on July 25, 2009, 08:59:08 pm
You're right.  'Know' as in as much as we can 'know' without BM turning into a dating site.  ;D

Actually, I know several people here, personally.  I've had BM members as guests in my home, and I speak to a few regularly on the phone, which is why I'm all hot and bothered about my friends here being attacked.
Title: Re: Offisite Discussion of Bettermost Posts
Post by: Luvlylittlewing on July 25, 2009, 09:00:09 pm
As a defense of the mods here, Jess had a little something to do with ending up on that curb.
It takes two to tango ! :)

I am sure she will move on in time.

As they say in my neighborhood, "sho you right!"
Title: Re: Offisite Discussion of Bettermost Posts
Post by: mariez on July 25, 2009, 09:03:53 pm
After all, y'all did just kick her ass to the curb a few weeks ago.

"Y'all"?  "I" didn't kick anybody's ass anywhere.  In fact, I wasn't even aware that she had been "kicked" anywhere at all until yesterday. 

As time progresses, we will find other content to "sneer" at. Rest assured.

Oh, no need to assure me  :) It doesn't matter to me who or what you find to "sneer" at - or if there's sneering taking place at all!   :)  As Katherine said:  Have at it!
Title: Re: Offisite Discussion of Bettermost Posts
Post by: Luvlylittlewing on July 25, 2009, 09:08:04 pm
"Y'all"?  "I" didn't kick anybody's ass anywhere.  In fact, I wasn't even aware that she had been "kicked" anywhere at all until yesterday. 

Oh, no need to assure me  :) It doesn't matter to me who or what you find to "sneer" at - or if there's sneering taking place at all!   :)  As Katherine said:  Have at it!

Thank you, MarieZ!  This is my attitude, as well.
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 09:08:13 pm
Actually, I know several people here, personally.  I've had BM members as guests in my home, and I speak to a few regularly on the phone, which is why I'm all hot and bothered about my friends here being attacked.



I've met quite a few also.

Meryl, Rouxb, Lynne , Paul, Richard, Truman, Chuck, Jeff, John, Monika, Sophia,
Chrissi, Clarissa, Leslie, Mikaela .... I'm forgetting somebody, I know.

And, trust me, Meryl will bust my chops as fast as anyone elses when I get out of line.
 ;D

Karen
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: Luvlylittlewing on July 25, 2009, 09:12:54 pm
I've met quite a few also.

Meryl, Rouxb, Lynne , Paul, Richard, Truman, Chuck, Jeff, John, Monika, Sophia,
Chrissi, Clarissa, Leslie, Mikaela .... I'm forgetting somebody, I know.

And, trust me, Meryl will bust my chops as fast as anyone elses when I get out of line.
 ;D

Karen

I've met people here who I consider friends for life.  Eric is a hoot, and good lookin' too!
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 09:15:37 pm
I've met people here who I consider friends for life. 

Me too !!!!

I also have friends I met over other sites that I go and visit in NYC about every 3 months.

Oh, I know who I left out !!!  SmellyKellyJay !!!

We visit and talk, and all because of a movie.

How great is that ?

Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 09:16:22 pm
I've met people here who I consider friends for life.  Eric is a hoot, and good lookin' too!

OMG !!  I left Eric out !!!

I've met him.  He is a cutie.

 ;)
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: MaineWriter on July 25, 2009, 09:24:05 pm
I've met quite a few also.

Meryl, Rouxb, Lynne , Paul, Richard, Truman, Chuck, Jeff, John, Monika, Sophia,
Chrissi, Clarissa, Leslie, Mikaela .... I'm forgetting somebody, I know.

And, trust me, Meryl will bust my chops as fast as anyone elses when I get out of line.
 ;D

Karen

Scott, Janice, Janice's granddaughter...

L

Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 09:31:53 pm
Scott, Janice, Janice's granddaughter...

L



Yes, and Jack !!!!

I knew I shouldn't have started naming people !!  I figured I would get my ass in a crack !
 :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 25, 2009, 09:39:19 pm
Yes, and Jack !!!!

I knew I shouldn't have started naming people !!  I figured I would get my ass in a crack !
 :D :D :D :D :D

Hey, friend, I remember meeting you! And Adam as well!
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 09:40:41 pm
Hey, friend, I remember meeting you! And Adam as well!

See !!!  OMG, Yes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Estes Park was my favorite gathering I think because I had never been to Colorado, and that has been
my first big gathering !!!!

I was thinking about that BBQ the other day and dreaming about the mountains.

 :)

I also met Rodney, Fritz and Pete and David.

Lord, there were so many people there.

 
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: Luvlylittlewing on July 25, 2009, 10:12:48 pm
Me too !!!!

I also have friends I met over other sites that I go and visit in NYC about every 3 months.

Oh, I know who I left out !!!  SmellyKellyJay !!!

We visit and talk, and all because of a movie.

How great is that ?



Very cool!  :)  I treasure the people I've met here, and on other sites.  Most of them really keep me going!
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: underdown on July 25, 2009, 10:14:58 pm

Hey, this thread seems to be two topics in one !
Very confusing (and amusing).  :)

I was even so confused last night as to notice Susie as a new member, and thought to send a welcome PM.
Now, how dumb is that sort of confusion? Sorry Susie.  :)
 
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: underdown on July 25, 2009, 11:11:09 pm
"If you're not confused here, then you really don't know what's going on."   :P

Actually, Gary, I'm not so confused about what is going on, or has gone on.
It's a bit sad to read about people like yourself being criticised on any forum, and the comment made in here that people should be ashamed was really to the point.
I'm not exactly a favourite of the owner of that other blog, and have been subjected to a few nasty personal comments in BM PMs that were based on assumed, but incorrect, information. I don't bear any grudge. We all have a few good, and bad, points. Some people just find it easier to judge than bother to be friends, and they are the poorer for it. If we judge and criticise others in order to feel superior, we are not better, but worse people for it.
On BetterMost, I just stick mainly with a few people who are not judgemental in any way, and are prepared to make up their own minds.

Rob  :)
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 11:39:16 pm
Yeah, we've already seen 'em with their cocks hangin' out, so why bother zippin' up now?

Sorry guys.  We didin't mean to ruin your circle jerk.

Nasty Boy

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hKrbyNZDcE[/youtube]

 :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 11:43:51 pm
And now for something completely different...

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1qHVVbYG8Y[/youtube]

I hope this provides a good laugh to our members here, and to those who are just looking in.

Too funny !!!!

Reminds me of my cat Baxter !

 ;D

Signed,

Crybaby.

 :)
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: serious crayons on July 25, 2009, 11:46:54 pm
Actually, I know several people here, personally.

That's what I was thinking! I've met dozens of Brokies, from DCF and IMDb as well as BetterMost. I just met another Brokie today, and had a wonderful time.

Unfortunately, Marie, I have yet to meet you in person, but we've shared quite a bit together, so I feel I know you anyway.  :-*



Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 11:48:46 pm
That's what I was thinking! I've met dozens of Brokies, from DCF and IMDb as well as BetterMost. I just met another Brokie today, and had a wonderful time.

Unfortunately, Marie, I have yet to meet you in person, but we've shared quite a bit together, so I feel I know you anyway.  :-*





Let's all go see Marie !!!!!!!

 :D :D :D
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: delalluvia on July 25, 2009, 11:50:37 pm
And now for something completely different...

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1qHVVbYG8Y[/youtube]

I hope this provides a good laugh to our members here, and to those who are just looking in.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

My cats!!  Except they don't show the same generosity.  They just eat it themselves.  Which is fine with me.  I wouldn't appreciate waking up to a huge dead roach in my bed as a 'gift'.

Yes, the Japanese screen in my bedroom has claw marks torn  into it.  My lamps are very stable and I've taken the precaution of covering my sofas with tons of blankets and throws and pillows to avoid clawing.  I warn every bug I see fluttering outside my door, that if they come into my apartment, they're a dead bug.
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 11:51:24 pm
;)

 :-*

Back atcha !!!!


Love,

Crybaby..... who has never had an original thought in her head.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 25, 2009, 11:53:22 pm
My 13 lb. cat Baxter has taken a running leap and landed right on my stomach as I'm laying on the couch.

And he thinks I'm going to pet him after that??????????????????????????

 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: SFEnnisSF on July 25, 2009, 11:56:05 pm
I've met people here who I consider friends for life.  Eric is a hoot, and good lookin' too!

OMG !!  I left Eric out !!!
I've met him.  He is a cutie.
 ;)


Awwwh, shucks...  :-*
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: SFEnnisSF on July 26, 2009, 12:01:36 am
See !!!  OMG, Yes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Estes Park was my favorite gathering I think because I had never been to Colorado, and that has been
my first big gathering !!!!

I was thinking about that BBQ the other day and dreaming about the mountains.

 :)

I also met Rodney, Fritz and Pete and David.

Lord, there were so many people there.

 


Oh yes, good memories.  It was the best.  We all came together as a family.   :)
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 12:03:13 am

Oh yes, good memories.  It was the best.  We all came together as a family.   :)

That was soooo much fun.  I'll never forget that trip.

I'd do it all over again !

 ;D
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: serious crayons on July 26, 2009, 12:06:05 am
That was soooo much fun.  I'll never forget that trip.

I'd do it all over again !

 ;D

And (ahem) you and I met there, though it must have been pretty brief, as we had to refresh each other's memories later.  ;)

Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 12:08:44 am
And (ahem) you and I met there, though it must have been pretty brief, as we had to refresh each other's memories later.  ;)



That's right !!!!

We had to show each other pictures. 

There were sooooooo many people there.

Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: Luvlylittlewing on July 26, 2009, 12:47:09 am
That's what I was thinking! I've met dozens of Brokies, from DCF and IMDb as well as BetterMost. I just met another Brokie today, and had a wonderful time.

Unfortunately, Marie, I have yet to meet you in person, but we've shared quite a bit together, so I feel I know you anyway.  :-*





I feel the same way, Katherine!  :)  :-*
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: Luvlylittlewing on July 26, 2009, 12:54:59 am
Let's all go see Marie !!!!!!!

 :D :D :D

Delighted!
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Luvlylittlewing on July 26, 2009, 12:56:58 am
My 13 lb. cat Baxter has taken a running leap and landed right on my stomach as I'm laying on the couch.

And he thinks I'm going to pet him after that??????????????????????????

 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

Gosh, I'm having the same problem.  Tiger is sitting on my lap right now as I type this and we won't get down, the spoiled bugger.  Thank God I don't have a clingy female cat.  Pookie keeps to herself!
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: Luvlylittlewing on July 26, 2009, 01:01:26 am
I have actually had the privilege of meeting Marie in person on a couple of different occasions.  We also talk on the phone now and then.  I can assure anyone who hasn't met Marie that she is a very gentle soul.  

I'll never forget the night that I was practically falling asleep in her sister's living room, and Marie led me by the hand to the bed she had prepared for me and tucked me in.  :D  No one has ever done that for me except my mother.

We also toured the Winchester Mystery House together close to Halloween last year.  That was so much fun.

Well, you were tired, rubbing your eyes, and I'll be damned if I'll have you uncomfortable in my house.  No, not on my watch.  Gary, I think about our times together often.  Guys, Gary is the sweetest, most gentle man you'll ever meet.  He is a dream to travel with; he is very easygoing and is not at all demanding.  Gary is the perfect guest, and my entire household enjoyed his visits.  Gary, we gotta plan another trip!  :-*

Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: Luvlylittlewing on July 26, 2009, 01:02:03 am
Back atcha !!!!


Love,

Crybaby..... who has never had an original thought in her head.



Aw, honey, I'm sorry you saw that!  :-*
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 01:22:41 am
Aw, honey, I'm sorry you saw that!  :-*

Actually, I laughed my ass off !!!

I set there and thought, gee, I wonder how I took care of myself all these years without a
brain in my head.

Had a good job for 25 years in marketing, until the electronics business went to hell, made good money,
and still have a good reputation in the industry.

I don't think I leaned over and all my brains fell out.

 ;)

Perhaps saying those things made him feel better about himself.

We all have to face consequences at one point in our life.

I've dealt with much worse.




Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: Luvlylittlewing on July 26, 2009, 01:26:15 am
Actually, I laughed my ass off !!!

I set there and thought, gee, I wonder how I took care of myself all these years without a
brain in my head.

Had a good job for 25 years in marketing, until the electronics business went to hell, made good money,
and still have a good reputation in the industry.

I don't think I leaned over and all my brains fell out.

 ;)

Perhaps saying those things made him feel better about himself.

We all have to face consequences at one point in our life.

I've dealt with much worse.






You go, sweetheart!  I love your positive attitude!  :)
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 01:38:40 am
That's a good attitude, Karen.  I've dealt with much worse, too.  I would count the ways, but I don't want to be accused of being a hick singing a country-western song.   :laugh:


Better to be a hick instead of a.........................

well, never mind.

 ;D

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: retropian on July 26, 2009, 05:17:59 am
It's great to see therre are some finding the humor in all of this. I am kinda tickled by the developement of this site myself. I have to give them credit. It's creative if malicious. It's a reverse-troll site and I think unique. Instead of trolling here and getting their posts deleted and being possible banned they copy other Bettermost members posts over there so they can troll them without fear of retribution. I think that is pretty funny! It also amuses me that a member of that site announced it was place for "honest and intelligent discussion", but it instantly devolved into a hate fest. As Gary said (see below), they exposed themselves revealing their true colors. I see some anger here about copying posts over there, which I can understand, but for myself, I don't care. I would encourage others not to worry about it, ignore. I visited the site once and don't plan on doing so again.

Yeah, we've already seen 'em with their cocks hangin' out, so why bother zippin' up now?

Sorry guys.  We didin't mean to ruin your circle jerk.

Nasty Boy

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Gary! I don't think I've ever seen a post like this from you! I'm shocked  ;D (in a good way). I hope you don't let them get to you. Don't let them gring you down to their level. I think they would like that, it's all they have..trying to bring others down.
Ian
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Kerry on July 26, 2009, 09:42:56 am
It's so lovely to see you here, Susie.  :D  Welcome back.   :-* :-*

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 10:08:03 am
From Jess' comments at The Retreat, it's pretty obvious that she is reading this thread.  So I have one more thing to say then I'm done.

Jess was not made to leave because the mods didn't like her, she was made to leave for her repeated personal attacks on people, often driving them away from Bettermost completely (myself included).  She was warned time and time again and yet chose to ignore those warnings.

As far as I'm concerned my grievances have nothing whatsoever to do with politics, or personal disagreements or dislikes.   

Posts have been taken from here for the sole purpose of mocking and ridiculing the poster, in the most cruel and cowardly way.

I can't quote them directly anymore because the offending remarks have been removed but calling Gary a "Nasty boy" "Flower girl" "The token victim" "Naif" "Clever manipulator" "'tard", to name but a few, is horrible and really rather pathetic.

We don't all have to be friends with one another ... that would be asking for the impossible ... but I would hope that our basic common decency would stop us from taking delight in ripping people to shreds.

And I'm done ....


ps.... a note to you androphiles .... being bitchy and catty about other people behind their backs  is very ........... "girly"  8) 

And after that childish remark I really am done  :)

Well said Susie.

 :)

 The fact that someone can't figure out why they were asked to leave a forums is sad in a way.
But, that is the only way some people know how to communicate, unfortunately.

They will turn around one day, and be all alone though.  Such negative thoughts always brings
negative results.  I learned that the hard way.   ;D

I always thought the measure of a man was based on strength, kindness and respect, not
how they dress or speak.

The behavior is 2nd grade level and comes from some misplaced anger.

I honestly sat there, while reading there comments, shaking my head.
What grown man calls people 'tards?

I am sure our posts will continue to be read and discussed in the same manner.
To that I say..... go for it. 

Oh, I will say, I have NEVER seen Gary lose his cool here, even tho there were many times
he had the right to, and posts such hateful things about anyone.  Ever.
Even when we are exchanging PMs.

That is the measure of a man.

Good luck y'all !!!!





Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on July 26, 2009, 10:08:37 am
ps.... a note to you androphiles .... being bitchy and catty about other people behind their backs  is very ........... "girly"  8) 

And after that childish remark I really am done  :)

Duly noted. Please be aware: men define masculinity. We say what is "girly" and what is not.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 10:09:23 am
:laugh:  Don't worry, Ian.  I'm not letting them get to me.  I was just trying to live up to my reputation as "nasty boy."  It seems I'm also a hick, and if you put hick and nasty together, what you get is a redneck.   :o  Who knew?   :laugh:

Hey now !!!!!

I'm from a long line of rednecks.

 ;D
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: louisev on July 26, 2009, 10:29:27 am
Duly noted. Please be aware: men define masculinity. We say what is "girly" and what is not.

and "girly" is a masculinity definition? Well who knew?
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 10:31:47 am
and "girly" is a masculinity definition? Well who knew?

 :)

I think women have their own definition of masculine, and I would imagine some men do too.

Wonder who's is correct?

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: mariez on July 26, 2009, 10:33:14 am
Please be aware: men define masculinity. We say what is "girly" and what is not.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  That has to be one of the funniest things I've ever read! 

In fact, it would make a great bumper sticker! 
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: serious crayons on July 26, 2009, 10:53:57 am
and "girly" is a masculinity definition? Well who knew?

 :laugh:

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Shakesthecoffecan on July 26, 2009, 11:13:32 am
Well you know its a free country, if they want to retreat and have their on conversations, even if they are about other people they can do that. There is no stopping them. As for me and my world the sun is out and I'm going to go outside and pretent I am in Alberta.....
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Berit on July 26, 2009, 11:26:29 am
Well you know its a free country, if they want to retreat and have their on conversations, even if they are about other people they can do that. There is no stopping them. As for me and my world the sun is out and I'm going to go outside and pretent I am in Alberta.....

It's raining cats and dogs here so I'll stay indoors, talk to my buddies all over the world, drink my coffee, listen to the hubby snooooooring in the back, thinking about Alberta and my plee to the Gods of Private Finances - I have to visit some friends - great FRIENDS I met here...... :-*

And to Jess if you read this........ ;)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Marge_Innavera on July 26, 2009, 11:40:27 am
Duly noted. Please be aware: men define masculinity. We say what is "girly" and what is not.

Be that as it is in May, the word misandry (another banned class from The Retreat To Copy Other Peoples' Stuff) refers to hatred and contempt for males. It's the counterpart of misogyny. It does not refer to failure to do proper obeisance and render right reverence to self-described "androphiles." Sometimes the dictionary takes awhile to acknowldge made-up words.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: retropian on July 26, 2009, 12:03:54 pm
:laugh:  Don't worry, Ian.  I'm not letting them get to me.  I was just trying to live up to my reputation as "nasty boy."  It seems I'm also a hick, and if you put hick and nasty together, what you get is a redneck.   :o  Who knew?   :laugh:

Ok good. I'm glad to hear it.

From Jess' comments at The Retreat, it's pretty obvious that she is reading this thread.  So I have one more thing to say then I'm done.

Jess was not made to leave because the mods didn't like her, she was made to leave for her repeated personal attacks on people, often driving them away from Bettermost completely (myself included).  She was warned time and time again and yet chose to ignore those warnings.

As far as I'm concerned my grievances have nothing whatsoever to do with politics, or personal disagreements or dislikes.   

Posts have been taken from here for the sole purpose of mocking and ridiculing the poster, in the most cruel and cowardly way.

I can't quote them directly anymore because the offending remarks have been removed but calling Gary a "Nasty boy" "Flower girl" "The token victim" "Naif" "Clever manipulator" "'tard", to name but a few, is horrible and really rather pathetic.

We don't all have to be friends with one another ... that would be asking for the impossible ... but I would hope that our basic common decency would stop us from taking delight in ripping people to shreds.

And I'm done ....

Yup, good post Susie, and good to know. I thought Jess had left on her own accord. It seems to be a feature of self styled conservatives that while they talk a good game about"personal responsibility" and "accountability" they never never take responsibility for their own actions and behaviors. You'll notice the fault is invariably projected onto some mysteriously all powerful "liberal elite". I'm now done with this thread and topic too.

Ian
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 12:04:00 pm
Be that as it is in May, the word misandry (another banned class from The Retreat To Copy Other Peoples' Stuff) refers to hatred and contempt for males. It's the counterpart of misogyny. It does not refer to failure to do proper obeisance and render right reverence to self-described "androphiles." Sometimes the dictionary takes awhile to acknowldge made-up words.

I love men !!!!

 ;D
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Kerry on July 26, 2009, 12:09:07 pm
I love men !!!!

 ;D

Me too!!!   :D
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Marge_Innavera on July 26, 2009, 12:20:10 pm
I love men !!!!

 ;D

I do too!  Which, of course, is what androphile really means.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on July 26, 2009, 02:33:41 pm
and "girly" is a masculinity definition? Well who knew?

OK. I'll explain. Just don't blame me for hijacking another thread this time.

Men define where the boundaries of masculinity lay. Beyond them is effeminacy or "girly."
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on July 26, 2009, 02:36:30 pm
I think women have their own definition of masculine, and I would imagine some men do too.

Wonder who's is correct?

Women might indeed have their own definition, but boys learn how to be men primarily from other males.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 02:47:08 pm
me three  ;D

Naked men are even better.

 ;D
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 02:49:01 pm
OK. I'll explain. Just don't blame me for hijacking another thread this time.

Men define where the boundaries of masculinity lay. Beyond them is effeminacy or "girly."

But men can have all different kinds of boundaries.

Everyones is valid..... to them.


 
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 02:51:02 pm
I think everyone should be who they are and not worry about the other guy.

 ;)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on July 26, 2009, 02:53:02 pm
It does not refer to failure to do proper obeisance and render right reverence to self-described "androphiles."

I never said that was part of it.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on July 26, 2009, 02:56:51 pm
But men can have all different kinds of boundaries.

Everyones is valid..... to them.

And then there are generally-accepted boundaries.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 03:01:58 pm
And then there are generally-accepted boundaries.

Depends.

I think for the most part, straights can be straight the way they want to be, and gays can be
gay they want to be.

I think people really don't spend that much time worrying about how straight or gay
a person acts, other then the Mormons.  LOL.

They are probably worried about jobs, food, shelter.

If you spend a lot of time worrying about what someone thinks, or trying to change them,
you wouldn't have much time to enjoy life.

It would be a waste of time, as only you know what you think.

Take time to smell the roses.


Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on July 26, 2009, 03:05:00 pm
Depends.

Not really. There are indeed generally-accepted boundaries for masculine behavior in our culture. Not all men fit within them, but mostly they know where the boundaries are.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 03:05:53 pm
Not really. There are indeed generally-accepted boundaries for masculine behavior in our culture. Not all men fit within them, but mostly they know where the boundaries are.

Well, we will just agree to disagree.

 :)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on July 26, 2009, 03:08:37 pm
Well, we will just agree to disagree.

 :)

Fair enough.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 03:10:49 pm
I have family member that wonder about my private life, because I really don't discuss it.

Some probably think I am gay because of some of the whispered comments I've overheard.

I laugh and go on.

Got better things to think on.
I could really give a fig what they think.

I know.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Luvlylittlewing on July 26, 2009, 04:57:39 pm
I do too!  Which, of course, is what androphile really means.

I love men to pieces!  :)  I'm all about the mens!  :laugh:  Seriously!!!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Mikaela on July 26, 2009, 05:31:37 pm
But I'm wondering why it is that men get to define all the terms.  If they get to define masculinity, why shouldn't women get to define femininity? 

*wild guess*

...Because their definition of Masculinity comes close to "(Real Manly) Master of the Universe" - and so of course master of every definition, by definition?   :P


 ;)

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Clyde-B on July 26, 2009, 05:38:50 pm
Methinks some men haven't had enough women tell them to get over themselves.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: delalluvia on July 26, 2009, 06:40:14 pm
Thanks for the post, Susie dear.  And speaking as a man, and apparently one who helps shape the definitions, I think you're right on the nose in regards to your "girly" comment.

But I'm wondering why it is that men get to define all the terms.  If they get to define masculinity, why shouldn't women get to define femininity? 

My thought exactly.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on July 26, 2009, 06:48:52 pm
Holy cow! What have I missed by going away and being out of computer touch overnight?  :laugh:

Susie, I'm quoting you below simply because what you wrote is a convenient take-off for what I have to add at this point. I hope you don't mind!

Posts have been taken from here for the sole purpose of mocking and ridiculing the poster, in the most cruel and cowardly way.

Copying posts from Bettermost to another forum in order to ridicule people? That's just pitiful. The folks who are doing this are really good advertisements for a Conservative point of view, aren't they?

Quote
I can't quote them directly anymore because the offending remarks have been removed but calling Gary a "Nasty boy" "Flower girl" "The token victim" "Naif" "Clever manipulator" "'tard", to name but a few, is horrible and really rather pathetic.

Hunh. Most people I know gave up that sort of behavior by the time they graduated Fourth Grade. What does that say about the people at "The Retreat"? (Is that what the forum is called?) Again. Real good examples of good Conservative Americans.

Quote
ps.... a note to you androphiles .... being bitchy and catty about other people behind their backs  is very ........... "girly"  8) 

I'd call it "sissy," too.  ;)

So they don't want "sissies" at "The Retreat"? Tell you what, I always thought certain of our Conservative former (?) neighbors here in Bettermost had issues with internalized homophobia. I guess this just bears out my suspicion, and I rest my case.

As for "no crybabies," what about Conservative crybabies who can't accept that Conservatives had their assess handed to them on a platter last November?  ;)
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on July 26, 2009, 06:52:03 pm
I've met quite a few also.

Meryl, Rouxb, Lynne , Paul, Richard, Truman, Chuck, Jeff, John, Monika, Sophia,
Chrissi, Clarissa, Leslie, Mikaela .... I'm forgetting somebody, I know.

And, trust me, Meryl will bust my chops as fast as anyone elses when I get out of line.
 ;D

Karen

Karen!!!!

How are you, Honey!  :-*  :-*  :-*

 ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 06:58:57 pm
Karen!!!!

How are you, Honey!  :-*  :-*  :-*

 ;D  ;D  ;D

Jeff !!!!

 :-*

I'm good.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 07:01:59 pm
Methinks some men haven't had enough women tell them to get over themselves.

Oh honey............  !!!!!

 :P

masculine, smasculine.

That's mostly exterior.
It's the inside that counts.

Being hu-man.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on July 26, 2009, 07:15:40 pm
If they get to define masculinity, why shouldn't women get to define femininity? 

Don't they?
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on July 26, 2009, 07:20:47 pm
Oh honey............  !!!!!

 :P

masculine, smasculine.

That's mostly exterior.
It's the inside that counts.

Being hu-man.

What about when one is a man inside??

True masculinity is not a facade.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 07:24:37 pm
What about when one is a man inside??

True masculinity is not a facade.

Depends on your definition of masculine.

And, yes, it can be a facade.  In straights and gays.
Title: Re: Gay Couple Detained After Kissing on Mormon Church-Owned Property
Post by: brokeplex on July 26, 2009, 08:06:30 pm
I'll tell you why they are getting their shorts in a wad shall I?  The posts are not being copied and discussed in a rational thoughtful manner, they are being ridiculed and the posters taunted.  What they are doing over there is cruel ..... and cowardly.

(I was about to quote a few comments from the site but I see that Jess has editted several of the posts and removed many of the offending remarks ... I suppose that's something, but "too little too late" as far as I'm concerned)

Susie, I just came from the Retreat and looked at the very thread which is discussing some of the entries on this thread - (talk about cross polination)  :laugh:.
The thread over there it is not open to viewing by non members so try to trust me when I way you are not correct in your assesment. The analysis of Bettermost and its moderators and their policies is rational and thoughtful, and based upon the experiences of people who mostly still have memberships on Bettermost.

It is not a surprise that Bettermost members who spent years accumulating posts and contacts, would discuss the site. I notice that I have over 5000 plus posts on Bettermost, was at one point in time a "supporting member", and created quite a few topics. But, even though I am in the ideological minority on Bettermost, and the Retreat for that matter  :laugh:,  I was never inclined to cancel my membership, as some who have clearly described themselves as "liberals" and are a part of the majority have done.

But over time, as the Retreat builds its membership and friendship network, minor incidental discussions of Bettermost or other sites will vanish. 
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 08:09:52 pm
Uh, sorry Bill, but it was open for viewing of guests.  Too many of us went in there and read it.

It has probably been deleted and cleaned up now, but we saw before that happened.

Sorry, but that is a fact.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 08:15:09 pm
Or, you could ask Jess and Brad.

I'm sure they would own up to it.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on July 26, 2009, 08:20:31 pm
From Jess' comments at The Retreat, it's pretty obvious that she is reading this thread.  So I have one more thing to say then I'm done.

Jess was not made to leave because the mods didn't like her, she was made to leave for her repeated personal attacks on people, often driving them away from Bettermost completely (myself included).  She was warned time and time again and yet chose to ignore those warnings.

As far as I'm concerned my grievances have nothing whatsoever to do with politics, or personal disagreements or dislikes.   

Posts have been taken from here for the sole purpose of mocking and ridiculing the poster, in the most cruel and cowardly way.

I can't quote them directly anymore because the offending remarks have been removed but calling Gary a "Nasty boy" "Flower girl" "The token victim" "Naif" "Clever manipulator" "'tard", to name but a few, is horrible and really rather pathetic.

We don't all have to be friends with one another ... that would be asking for the impossible ... but I would hope that our basic common decency would stop us from taking delight in ripping people to shreds.

And I'm done ....


ps.... a note to you androphiles .... being bitchy and catty about other people behind their backs  is very ........... "girly"  8) 

And after that childish remark I really am done  :)

I can't speak for androphiles, but I have no problem calling myself a gay man, cuz that is what I am. But, the androphiles most definitely do not have a monopoly on catty behavior.

As far as my friend Jess is concerned, ultimately she was made to leave because she fundamentally disagreed with the majority, and wouldn't make any compromises in her statements defending her beliefs, esp those which concern gay men. Her disagreement with members here should not have lead to her expulsion. Do people say things in the heat of argument that are "catty"? Sure they do. So, what?

So, what were the real reasons for Jess's expulsion? Frankly, I don't want run away personal attacks either, but the definition of what is and what is not a personal attack is VERY flexible. And what it came down to concerning Jess's posts, was the individual "complainer" was given permission to define her comments as personal attacks at their own personal whim, and the mods enforced that policy. It was almost to the point that Jess could have said "good morning", and someone would have complained.

IMO it is this type of whining more than anything else that hurts open and interesting discussion on social networking forums, in fact it hurts far more than an incidental personal attack.  
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 08:23:05 pm
Brokeplex ... this is the only quote I can give you ... I copied it before it was removed ....

Quote from Judgeholden  ...

To be honest with you, these days I mostly scroll thru her posts or skim (No doubt she does the same w/ mine): Louise "blah blah blah", Cottle [fiddle theme from the Ken Burns Civil War series playing mournfully]: "I was born dirt poor ina cabin on a mountainside in Kentucky, my Daddy was blind, my Mamma was lame and we had a 3-legged dog with emphysema...[morphs into Lorretta singin Coal Miners Daughter]", till Isee if Milo wrote something of interest in response to one of these 'tards..



....... pretty childish in my opinion .....



I'm glad you were able to copy that Susie in case we were questioned?
I suspected we would be, but too many of us read that thread.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on July 26, 2009, 08:23:46 pm
Uh, sorry Bill, but it was open for viewing of guests.  Too many of us went in there and read it.

It has probably been deleted and cleaned up now, but we saw before that happened.

Sorry, but that is a fact.



then I didn't see what you saw. and I will take your word for it.  :)

however what I have saw today and yesterday is an orderly rational dialog about how social networking forums should function.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 08:24:26 pm
I can't speak for androphiles, but I have no problem calling myself a gay man, cuz that is what I am. But, the androphiles most definitely do not have a monopoly on catty behavior.

As far as my friend Jess is concerned, ultimately she was made to leave because she fundamentally disagreed with the majority, and wouldn't make any compromises in her statements defending her beliefs, esp those which concern gay men. Her disagreement with members here should not have lead to her expulsion. Do people say things in the heat of argument that are "catty"? Sure they do. So, what?

So, what were the real reasons for Jess's expulsion? Frankly, I don't want run away personal attacks either, but the definition of what is and what is not a personal attack is VERY flexible. And what it came down to concerning Jess's posts, was the individual "complainer" was given permission to define her comments as personal attacks at their own personal whim, and the mods enforced that policy. It was almost to the point that Jess could have said "good morning", and someone would have complained.

IMO it is this type of whining more than anything else that hurts open and interesting discussion on social networking forums, in fact it hurts far more than an incidental personal attack.  

You are entitled to your opinion.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 08:27:56 pm
Playing the 'victim' can come from many corners.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on July 26, 2009, 08:33:56 pm
Brokeplex ... this is the only quote I can give you ... I copied it before it was removed ....

Quote from Judgeholden  ...

To be honest with you, these days I mostly scroll thru her posts or skim (No doubt she does the same w/ mine): Louise "blah blah blah", Cottle [fiddle theme from the Ken Burns Civil War series playing mournfully]: "I was born dirt poor ina cabin on a mountainside in Kentucky, my Daddy was blind, my Mamma was lame and we had a 3-legged dog with emphysema...[morphs into Lorretta singin Coal Miners Daughter]", till Isee if Milo wrote something of interest in response to one of these 'tards..



....... pretty childish in my opinion .....



3 legged dog? sound like a tableaux straight out of "Tobacco Road".  :laugh: I have no idea what all that quotation meant.

My disagreements are mostly political and I try to not make comments about social upbringing. We don't chose our parents. It is what we do with the rest of our lives that counts.

I have been very candid about my disagreements with the majority on Bettermost concerning political issues, but it may surprise you that I also disagree substantially with many on the Retreat as well. I feel that even though I disagree with the majority on the Retreat concerning same sex marriage ( I am a loud advocate for) and Sarah Palin ( I wish she would just go away and disappear) my posts have been treated with respect and a dialog has been established. Sometimes, on Bettermost, dialog broke down very quickly when anyone who disagreed with the majority posted anything contrarian. Of course, I've got a duraniun hull, I am able to get out my photon torpedoes and strike back. The "problem" that many on the Retreat have discussed is this : when the ideological minority struck back at the majority, someone always complained to the mods, and the censorship started. And that whining was the problem, not the disagreements.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on July 26, 2009, 08:39:52 pm
 :o O.M.G.  :(

Brokeplex ... this is the only quote I can give you ... I copied it before it was removed ....

Quote from Judgeholden  ...

To be honest with you, these days I mostly scroll thru her posts or skim (No doubt she does the same w/ mine): Louise "blah blah blah", Cottle [fiddle theme from the Ken Burns Civil War series playing mournfully]: "I was born dirt poor ina cabin on a mountainside in Kentucky, my Daddy was blind, my Mamma was lame and we had a 3-legged dog with emphysema...[morphs into Lorretta singin Coal Miners Daughter]", till Isee if Milo wrote something of interest in response to one of these 'tards..



....... pretty childish in my opinion .....



There was a time I at least respected JudgeHolden. Not any more.  :(
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on July 26, 2009, 08:40:33 pm

So I'm afraid you are mistaken if you think we're all a bunch a whiney little girls.


"whiney little girls"?  in all candor, I respected almost 100% of the women over here and found that they were much more resilient and able in debating, and didn't notice them whining.

as for the other gender - that was the source of most of the whining. frankly,  it is an almost universal fact that most men in all cultures do not respect other men who frequently whine.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 08:46:28 pm
Bill, this had NOTHING to do with politics.

Like Susie said, and I think several members have mentioned on here, that they were targeted
by Jess with intimidating posts and PM's.

I know she is your friend, and I am sure you were never her target...... yet.

I have no idea what criteria the mods used in their decision to finally delete her account, but
I would bet my left arm it had nothing to do with politics.

I am glad you guys have a forum that you enjoy.

 
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on July 26, 2009, 08:49:43 pm
oh, and I'm noticing that some "copying" of posts over on the Retreat has apparently been done by Bettermost members. And I even see that those copied posts are now posted here.   :o

That doesn't concern me a bit. But I do recall earlier on this very thread that some members were "complaining" that Retreat members were copying Bettermost posts and then posting them over on the Retreat.

So, what do we have here? Could this be double standard time at the OK corral?  ???
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on July 26, 2009, 08:51:07 pm

I know she is your friend, and I am sure you were never her target...... yet.


"yet" ?  :laugh: thanks for the early warning, I guess.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 08:52:22 pm
Or, as one of your friends at the Retreat said about me.........

Karen is a crybaby and never had an original thought.

I imagine the person that posted that is lurking right now.
 ;)

Somehow, I'm a crybaby because I didn't like how our posts from here were copied over their
for them to mock and ridicule us.... and Jess is the victim.

Please................

That boat don't float.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on July 26, 2009, 08:55:56 pm
But you've overlooked the part I wrote about Jess' very real and very nasty personal attacks .... do you still believe that she was picked on for no reason or that people had genuine grievances?

again, we get back to the ever flexible definition as to what is or what is not a disruptive personal attack.

I believe that there was unrelenting whining campaign about Jess's posts on the part of a small group of people who were allowed by the mods to define and control the issue.

It is one of the ironies of the whole episode that many of the people who whined the very loudest about Jess once were her friends. Somehow, they just couldn't live with her opinions.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 08:56:19 pm
oh, and I'm noticing that some "copying" of posts over on the Retreat has apparently been done by Bettermost members. And I even see that those copied posts are now posted here.   :o

That doesn't concern me a bit. But I do recall earlier on this very thread that some members were "complaining" that Retreat members were copying Bettermost posts and then posting them over on the Retreat.

So, what do we have here? Could this be double standard time at the OK corral?  ???

Twist it around as you please.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 08:57:53 pm
again, we get back to the ever flexible definition as to what is or what is not a disruptive personal attack.

I believe that there was unrelenting whining campaign about Jess's posts on the part of a small group of people who were allowed by the mods to define and control the issue.

It is one of the ironies of the whole episode that many of the people who whined the very loudest about Jess once were her friends. Somehow, they just couldn't live with her opinions.

That is your opinion.

This wasn't her first rodeo.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on July 26, 2009, 09:01:31 pm
Or, as one of your friends at the Retreat said about me.........

Karen is a crybaby and never had an original thought.

I imagine the person that posted that is lurking right now.
 ;)

Somehow, I'm a crybaby because I didn't like how our posts from here were copied over their
for them to mock and ridicule us.... and Jess is the victim.

Please................

That boat don't float.



You changed your profile Karen! I didn't know who you were at first.   :)

I genuinely don't know about any comments on the Retreat concerning you.

But, if what you say is true about what Retreat members have done, then Karen, the copying and the mocking seems to be mutual.

I have read each and every post on this thread, and I see quite a bit of mocking going on. And the mutual copying, is evident too.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 09:04:00 pm
You know what, I honestly felt sad for Jess when her account was deleted because I knew she had
been a member here a long time.

Sometimes, a person has to take responsibility for their actions though.

This is about why Jess was banned, only the mods truly know that.

I wish her well, and am glad you guys have a forum where you feel
you are safe..... if you want to call it that.

It's probably time to move on from the bitterness, and hopefully that will happen soon.

What's done is done.  
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 09:06:42 pm
You changed your profile Karen! I didn't know who you were at first.   :)

I genuinely don't know about any comments on the Retreat concerning you.

But, if what you say is true about what Retreat members have done, then Karen, the copying and the mocking seems to be mutual.

I have read each and every post on this thread, and I see quite a bit of mocking going on. And the mutual copying, is evident too.



Doesn't even compare.

I didn't come back under my real, or previous login because I had gotten a PM from one of you guys
telling me to....................  go Fuck yourself Karen.

I have never had that happen on any forum, no matter how hostile things became.

But again, you have your opinion, and I have mine.

 ;)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 09:09:15 pm
ONE post from the retreat was copied here.  ONE

Doesn't compare.

So Bill, you and I can agree to disagree.

 :)

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 09:13:16 pm
Gosh, I'd forgotten the "Go fuck yourself Susiebell" that I received from one of the Retreat guys ... who shall remain nameless. :-\

 

Oh...... you got one too !!!!!!

And here I thought I was special.

 :)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on July 26, 2009, 09:18:48 pm
I didn't come back under my real, or previous login because I had gotten a PM from one of you guys
telling me to....................  go Fuck yourself Karen.

Gosh, I'd forgotten the "Go fuck yourself Susiebell" that I received from one of the Retreat guys ... who shall remain nameless. :-\

Jesus H.! People sent PMs like that and were allowed to continue their memberships on Bettermost?  :o

Oh...... you got one too !!!!!!

And here I thought I was special.

 :)

Of course you're special! And we're glad you're back!  ;D  :-*
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 09:23:01 pm
Thanks Jeff....

 :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 09:24:23 pm
Maybe Susie and I should start a

Go Fuck yourself club !!!!

 ;D
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on July 26, 2009, 09:26:26 pm
Doesn't even compare.

I didn't come back under my real, or previous login because I had gotten a PM from one of you guys
telling me to....................  go Fuck yourself Karen.

I have never had that happen on any forum, no matter how hostile things became.

But again, you have your opinion, and I have mine.

 ;)

Karen, I didn't send any messages like that, and think that any such PMs are stupid. why bother doing something like that?
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 26, 2009, 09:28:06 pm
Well, there is a sleepover club started by Susie and Shasta that could use some more energy. Why not post a bit over there and I would love to talk to you there.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 09:29:07 pm
Karen, I didn't send any messages like that, and think that any such PMs are stupid. why bother doing something like that?

I know you wouldn't do something like that Bill.

I really do.  You don't operate like that.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on July 26, 2009, 09:29:42 pm
Gosh, I'd forgotten the "Go fuck yourself Susiebell" that I received from one of the Retreat guys ... who shall remain nameless. :-\

 

I have the same reaction that I did to Karen's comment about an angry PM.

A PM like that is just stupid and accomplishes nothing.

hard to imagine anyone bothering to do it.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 09:30:09 pm
Well, there is a sleepover club started by Susie and Shasta that could use some more energy. Why not post a bit over there and I would love to talk to you there.

Yeah, this has gone on longer then it should have.

 ;D
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 09:34:59 pm
I have too much time on my hands with this broken foot.

 ;D

I'm over it now for sure. I know you realize there is always two sides to every story.

Bill, I hope you are surving the Texas heat.

If I could walk, I would be on a plane to New England.

 ;)

Anywhere cooler.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Kerry on July 26, 2009, 11:06:47 pm
"whiney little girls"?  in all candor, I respected almost 100% of the women over here and found that they were much more resilient and able in debating, and didn't notice them whining.

as for the other gender - that was the source of most of the whining. frankly,  it is an almost universal fact that most men in all cultures do not respect other men who frequently whine.

 :o  Gasp!  :o  That is one heck of a mighty HUGE sweeping statement you've made there!

"Universal fact"  ???

"Most men"  ???

"All cultures"  ???
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: serious crayons on July 26, 2009, 11:32:23 pm
I think this demonstrates quite clearly that there are.... and not only insults but flat out lies. :-\

Susie, I think you have more than amply demonstrated that. I'm sorry you were talked about that way. It's ugly, it contains lies, and I totally understand your frustration.

But let's face it, we're paying way more attention to that site than it deserves, and it gets tiresome. I say we get back to celebrating what we have here, the members we know and like (or in some cases don't know that well yet, but could grow to like), the lively  conversation, the positive comments.

That other site is like a train wreck -- interesting only in a perverse way. I am trying not to pay attention to that bullshit.


Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 11:49:23 pm
I think if we want to continue to discuss this, it would be better to take it to Safe Haven where
Jess can no longer view posts as a guest, and hope that others , members still here will  not copy our post.
But, I don't have a lot of faith in that and I think moving on , or continuing in a safer place
would be appropriate.

That bunch has proven they aren't worth our time.

We could post more detailed stuff here about them, but they aren't worth it.
They know what they did.

I will say I am disappointed in some members that are part of that place, but
to each  their own.

I think the best thing is to just ignore them and hope they are able to
move on.

I am sorry that you saw what was said Susie, but you have to consider that
the source is a very bitter and cowardly person and those actions have
proven that banning was the best answer.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Kerry on July 26, 2009, 11:55:20 pm

 :-*  {{{ SUSIE }}}  :-*
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 11:56:42 pm
If any of you guys would like to discuss things in a private manner, please PM me and I will
give you the link to my blog.  It is not available to guest, and certain other people /

k
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: serious crayons on July 26, 2009, 11:57:22 pm
I'm going to hunt down my Susie and Shasta blog, brush off the cobwebs,  and find a nice pic to post in it :)

Yay!  :D

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 26, 2009, 11:57:54 pm
Ya know, in a way this is all good.  Things are being brought into the light, and I think it is bringing all of us
closer together.

 :)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: louisev on July 27, 2009, 12:03:46 am
:o  Gasp!  :o  That is one heck of a mighty HUGE sweeping statement you've made there!

"Universal fact"  ???

"Most men"  ???

"All cultures"  ???

I've never been able to understand what is meant by "our culture" when it's been brought up here, because there is no "our culture".  There are many cultures represented here, ethnic, national, language, and hopefully - there always will be.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 27, 2009, 12:05:24 am
We are not supposed to understand it, just accept it as gospel .

 ;D

that is what I was tought in church.

 :D
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: louisev on July 27, 2009, 12:13:37 am
Susie,

(Mod hat on)

Speaking as one of the two moderators of the Fanfic section of the board, neither you, nor Gary, nor any other author were singled out for any action on any of the fics you posted there.  I did the editing and reposting, and in a few minor cases, archiving, of certain specific drabble posts for one reason only - because we were hosted on a site in Texas, the area was a public area, and the laws in Texas regarding internet conten because the terms of our contract with GoogleAds involved content restrictions, and  could very easily have been invoked to cause headaches here, and our recommendation then, as now, is to make live links to story sites for fanfics you wish to post, and everyone is invited to contribute - and comment on - any fics they like.

It would be a mistake to take any of what is said by former members of Bettermost regarding our moderation policies, which are posted and which are guided by our minimal and effective rules.  You are certainly welcome here, and I for one am glad you have decided to return.  There is no need to feel wary or uncomfortable about participating in the Fanfic area or in posting drabbles there as before or in posting new things.  I said that at the time, and I stand by that.

ETA: reviewing the correspondence from that time period, the removal and external hosting recommendations on the Fanfic Halloween thread was due to compliance provisions in our GoogleAds contract.  The Male Imagery thread was moved to a server outside of Texas because of concerns over Texas laws - two different issues which were resolved in the same time frame.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 27, 2009, 12:21:23 am
I love fanfic !!!!! ;D
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: underdown on July 27, 2009, 04:54:46 am
Susie, you know I love you, and I love how you stick up for me.  But we can't control what those people say about us.  So yes, let's move onto something else.  The bark chewers and the glass eaters can grind their teeth all they want.  They can only hurt us if we turn our ear toward them.  It's a siren's song we've been listening to here, and if we're not careful, we could head toward the rocks.  So let's let it go.   :-*

I would totally agree with you, Gary.
Being a curious cat, I did have a look at the retreat and that thread. If people need it, then, probably, Jess is the best person to host it, and I have nothing but admiration for her.
That said, I was not amused to see my own name mentioned on her (public) forum, and associated with another, named, member of BM, and that cited as the original reason she set up alternative blogs; and perhaps being the catalyst for the resultant interest or ill feeling here. So, maybe I'm to blame?
I'm not a bad person, but I'm not a saint, or here to keep other people happy, either, as Milo would probably say.
Yes, I was close to that other member for one wonderful year, a few years ago, and we went our separate ways. Maybe she preferred someone else, or maybe I snored too loudly. Whatever the reason, that was over long ago, and should not be still mentioned.
Yes, a while after we parted, I heard that her horse won a championship, and searched him, because I felt proud for her and wanted to see what he had won. And purely by chance, that led me to a post about him in Jess's Feedstore.
Yes, I was tempted, I am cheeky, curious, and couldn't resist getting involved in the thread; incognito. But that felt dishonest, so I experimentally posted a photo to let slip who I was. There was absolutely no intention to be dishonest. Either I'd be trusted to be just a friend, or misunderstood and kicked out, and the latter was decided upon. Then followed not so nice PMs to others on BM, saying things about me that I won't mention here. Then something even nastier was publicly posted; so serious that my solicitors wanted the Australian Federal Police to become involved, but I could not allow that.
In a way, I wish that I had never heard of BetterMost, because it may have caused pain to those who could not understand, and I am sorry if it did. But I have made other friends here that I think the world of. A couple of them joined the retreat, and I can understand that. After all, Jess does, in her own way, have a lot to give to others.
I'm not a friend of Jess's, but, in relation to her, everyone would know what Shakespeare's Mark Antony said of Julius Ceasar .. 'The evil men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones.' How true. We should let it be, and wish them all the best.
Now, having been perhaps too personal, and being possibly the only straight male on BetterMost, maybe I don't fit in very well. But I do appreciate the values of BetterMost, and the story behind it, and the friends I have made here, very much.
Rob.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Kelda on July 27, 2009, 06:21:18 am
Rob,

You have no need to explain yourself, and can assure you you are just as an important part of Bettermost as anyone else here.

And you are not the first or only straight male member of Bettermost, rest assured!
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on July 27, 2009, 08:58:18 am
Maybe Susie and I should start a

Go Fuck yourself club !!!!

 ;D

Where do I sign up!?!?!?  ;D

(((Karen)))  :-*
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on July 29, 2009, 10:39:37 pm
I have too much time on my hands with this broken foot.

 ;D

I'm over it now for sure. I know you realize there is always two sides to every story.

Bill, I hope you are surving the Texas heat.

If I could walk, I would be on a plane to New England.

 ;)

Anywhere cooler.



I've been way up north n the Bitterroots for the past couple of weeks. 70's in the days, 40's at night.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on July 29, 2009, 10:46:52 pm
Quote from Jess

*sigh*

Susie left Bettermost MONTHS ago (shortly after we had to edit the fan fic section ...shall I go into THAT Ms Susie??) now, IF I had in fact engaged in 'personal attacks' on the board and in pms...why would I have remained not just a member but a moderator?? that doesn't even make sense. But if it makes her feel better to lie about me, at least I know she is not out lying about someone else!! 

 

seeing HER buck is worth the quarter...buck, Susie, buck!!!

I do more to stimulate conversation than anyone ON Bettermost and I am not even there!

Phillip should pay me.....



I didn't think it would be long before I came under attack.... and of course I have no way of defending myself. 

I wasn't going to post this over here, I really don't want to get into another "well you're copying and pasting our posts too" war with anyone here.  But Brokeplex you asked me to trust you that there are no insults flying around over there, only constructive debate, and I think this demonstrates quite clearly that there are.... and not only insults but flat out lies. :-\





not sure what all that means other than Jess seems to feel that someone is not telling the truth. I haven't talked to her about her post, I've been hiking in the mountains and haven't paid much attention this week to the internet. I can't see that you are "insulted" by her post, but that may be in the eye of the beholder. It is probably just a tempest in someone's tea pot and won't matter much in a week anyway.

but one thing that Jess said rings true, she does stimulate conversations.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on July 29, 2009, 10:56:54 pm
:o  Gasp!  :o  That is one heck of a mighty HUGE sweeping statement you've made there!

"Universal fact"  ???

"Most men"  ???

"All cultures"  ???

yep, universal, most, or all you can take your pick or not - the plain fact is most men become contemptuous rather quickly of other men who frequently whine and complain. that seems to cross cultural boundaries. that doesn't mean that smaller subgroups of men don't find comfort in bitching, whining and complaining to and about each other. its just most men find men who are quick to shout "I am so offended and hurt" to be a bit ridiculous. 

but to each his own, so those who enjoy whining, enjoy it!
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Front-Ranger on July 29, 2009, 10:57:39 pm
How wonderful that you are hiking in the mountains, brokeplex! Sounds heavenly! I hope you didn't run into enni grizzlies out there and stayed dry enuff!!
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on July 29, 2009, 11:30:14 pm
How wonderful that you are hiking in the mountains, brokeplex! Sounds heavenly! I hope you didn't run into enni grizzlies out there and stayed dry enuff!!

no grizzlies! but we had a large cat - maybe a mountain lion who came up to the cabin decided to get into some trash that dusty forgot to burn. I notice from the tell tale muddy paw prints on the porch that he has been back - maybe I should put out a big saucer of milk?  :laugh:
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on July 29, 2009, 11:38:05 pm
If you really truly mean that ... that calling me a liar and ridiculing me isn't insulting ..... then I throw my hands up in the air and give up.  :-\

Susie, I guess we are talking past each other. I don't see ridicule in her posts, I just see that she feels that others have lied about her and feels hurt and injured. Nothing more. I do see that you do not care for the tone of her post over there - but really where is the harm in her venting a little, or you venting back? I can't see any. Jess's feeling were hurt when she was expelled from Bettermost, she is going to vent a little. But that post you quoted is only a very small and isolated example of her 2351 posts on the Retreat - I only have couple of hundred so far. She has created a very interesting site that hopefully will grow. It is not as extensive as Bettermost, but Jess doesn't censor our posts and so I am delighted to post on her site and help her make the site prosper.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 29, 2009, 11:48:09 pm
Bill, I think it is great your guys have your own forum.
I am sure you are enjoying it.

Wish you guys luck and enjoy life.

 :)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Marge_Innavera on July 30, 2009, 08:20:19 am
I'm certainly not going to pretend to wish a hate-filled site like that well, but it might serve a useful purpose if it serves as a safety valve for whatever anger its members might be stewing in. There have been fewer posts in Current Events recently but the type of additional traffic this area had previously attracted was detrimental to the whole forum so that's not bad news.

I must say it was a nasty surprise to see a Bettermost moderator (not the one who posted a few messages back) posting there.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on July 30, 2009, 09:05:27 am
There have been fewer posts in Current Events recently but the type of additional traffic this area had previously attracted was detrimental to the whole forum so that's not bad news.

Exactly.  :)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Shasta542 on July 30, 2009, 09:20:34 am
Exactly.  :)

I know. It's much better when everybody agrees with everything, isn't it? Utopia.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: serious crayons on July 30, 2009, 10:08:29 am
I know. It's much better when everybody agrees with everything, isn't it? Utopia.

I don't think so. I think it's much better when people voice a variety of opinions in a friendly and respectful manner.  :)


Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on July 30, 2009, 10:33:00 am
I don't think so. I think it's much better when people voice a variety of opinions in a friendly and respectful manner.  :)

And when they are interested in starting discussion, not deliberately provoking conflict.  :)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Mikaela on July 30, 2009, 10:41:19 am
I found the original posts here on BM (that are the basis for the discussion here) to be inflammatory and spiteful more often than not - in my evaluation not aiming at political discussion at all, but at deliberately provoking strife and hurtful reactions. I would predict that once Bettermost members stop paying the new site and whatever goes on there any attention, the need to provoke such reactions will still be just as strong, and will start taking its toll internally on the new site.

But be that as it may, I find the tone here at BM much more polite and corteous now and that is more encouraging and inspiring than lots of confrontational traffic. IMO.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on July 30, 2009, 11:14:12 am
And those posts were inflammatory and spiteful more often than not - in my evaluation not aiming at political discussion at all, but at deliberately provoking strife and hurtful reactions.

I agree completely. Of course, people may disagree on what they think constitutes discussion and an acceptable tone for political discussion especially, but if I want conflict, confrontation, and deliberate provocation, I'll watch Fox News. That's not the atmosphere I want for this community.

Quote
I find the tone here at BM much more polite and corteous now and that is more encouraging and inspiring than lots of confrontational traffic. IMO.

I agree. Isn't it nice?  :)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 30, 2009, 11:24:12 am
I agree completely. Of course, people may disagree on what they think constitutes discussion and an acceptable tone for political discussion especially, but if I want conflict, confrontation, and deliberate provocation, I'll watch Fox News. That's not the atmosphere I want for this community.

I agree. Isn't it nice?  :)

yes
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Shasta542 on July 30, 2009, 02:12:34 pm
... sounds pretty boring to me ...... but it's much better when people don't make snide catty remarks about each other just because they disagree. 

Well. Here's my problem. I disagree a lot. And I try not to be snide or catty. But when I present a view that is different from the OP -- many times there are 6-8 people who come and give a rebuttal to whatever I say. I have to answer all those people and they just have to answer me. It's frustrating, so it's easier just to keep my mouth shut. You aren't going to see a lot of disagreement that way.  
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: serious crayons on July 30, 2009, 02:22:08 pm
Well. Here's my problem. I disagree a lot. And I try not to be snide or catty. But when I present a view that is different from the OP -- many times there are 6-8 people who come and give a rebuttal to whatever I say. I have to answer all those people and they just have to answer me. It's frustrating, so it's easier just to keep my mouth shut. You aren't going to see a lot of disagreement that way.  

I can understand your dilemma, Shasta. But how else could it work? You tend to be politically conservative, and you're on a site where the majority of members tend to be politically liberal (note: there are of course varying degrees, exceptions, overlap, etc.). If you want to express a view that's different from the OP's, most likely others will want to express a view that is different from yours. But it needn't get hostile or insulting.

I welcome a diversity of opinions here, as long as people express them respectfully. I've been really pleased with the tone here over the past few weeks, and would be happy if people with minority viewpoints would jump in and discuss them while maintaining that friendly atmosphere.


Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Shasta542 on July 30, 2009, 02:37:31 pm
I can understand your dilemma, Shasta. But how else could it work? You tend to be politically conservative, and you're on a site where the majority of members tend to be politically liberal (note: there are of course varying degrees, exceptions, overlap, etc.). If you want to express a view that's different from the OP's, most likely others will want to express a view that is different from yours. But it needn't get hostile or insulting.

I welcome a diversity of opinions here, as long as people express them respectfully. I've been really pleased with the tone here over the past few weeks, and would be happy if people with minority viewpoints would jump in and discuss them while maintaining that friendly atmosphere.


The minority opinion people here feel ganged up on. I know a couple of others here who are conservative, but they know how it goes, so they stay off any controversial topics. You may not be able to see it since most of your opinions are not conservative, but it's really not a free feeling. I know we can discuss without getting mad, but it's still hard when one person has to answer several. And -- some non-conservatives say things like...how stupid or how low class, etc. Things like that--maybe not aimed at a certain person, but definitely aimed at a certain person's beliefs.  
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 30, 2009, 02:53:39 pm
I think both sides of participated in snark at different opinions.  BOTH sides.

I am guilty myself.

I think if one disagrees, it needn't be personal.

This site does have a majority of more liberal views. 

I think it is how we approach each other, and I've always thought, or wished
we could talk without snark.  I think some enjoy that though.

So, why don't we all join hands and sing....."we are the world".

 :)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on July 30, 2009, 02:55:41 pm
I can understand your dilemma, Shasta. But how else could it work? You tend to be politically conservative, and you're on a site where the majority of members tend to be politically liberal (note: there are of course varying degrees, exceptions, overlap, etc.). If you want to express a view that's different from the OP's, most likely others will want to express a view that is different from yours. But it needn't get hostile or insulting.

I welcome a diversity of opinions here, as long as people express them respectfully. I've been really pleased with the tone here over the past few weeks, and would be happy if people with minority viewpoints would jump in and discuss them while maintaining that friendly atmosphere.

FWIW, it also seems to me that there is a difference between presenting and discussing differing opinions and creating threads with deliberately provocative titles that clearly indicated the writer's view. In the past there were threads created, especially in Current Events, with titles that looked to me like the writer was deliberately "spoiling for a fight," just daring people to argue in rebuttal.

Just to make up an example of what I'm trying to say, I think there is a difference between "Obama Health Plan is Socialism!" and "Elements of Socialism in Obama's Health Plan?" The first looks to me like an attack on the President and deliberately dares his supporters to come to his defense. The second asks a question and opens the door for a discussion and a sharing of opinions whether or not those opinions differ.

It was the deliberately provocative thread titles that I really disliked, and they sort of made me sad, too.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Shasta542 on July 30, 2009, 02:59:38 pm
It's hard to be a minority, I know.  Just imagine it's your family implying that you're stupid and low class, and add to that, sinful.  Imagine them telling you you're going to hell if you don't get to be more like them.  It sucks.   :P

Let's go join a kiss-in and maybe we'll feel better.   :-* 

 ;) ;D :-*
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: serious crayons on July 30, 2009, 03:04:33 pm
The minority opinion people here feel ganged up on. I know a couple of others here who are conservative, but they know how it goes, so they stay off any controversial topics. You may not be able to see it since most of your opinions are not conservative, but it's really not a free feeling. I know we can discuss without getting mad, but it's still hard when one person has to answer several.

I know, and actually I do see it. But like I say, I don't know how to get around that. Most gay people and supporters of gay people (not all, I know!) tend to be liberal, and this site tends to attract people in those groups.

Quote
And -- some non-conservatives say things like...how stupid or how low class, etc. Things like that--maybe not aimed at a certain person, but definitely aimed at a certain person's beliefs.  

Yes, but I do think the insults have gone both ways. For example, I've seen some posts that suggest the poster feels the word "elite" automatically always goes in front of "leftists" or "liberals." And yes, it may sting less when one feels in the majority, just as "honky" is not as hurtful as the n-word, and "breeder" less hurtful than the f-word. Still, name calling and insults are not conducive to pleasant conversation or debate regardless of which way they flow.

I just think we should all try to keep these issues in mind and be as friendly, respectful and non-combative as possible.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Shasta542 on July 30, 2009, 03:05:07 pm
FWIW, it also seems to me that there is a difference between presenting and discussing differing opinions and creating threads with deliberately provocative titles that clearly indicated the writer's view. In the past there were threads created, especially in Current Events, with titles that looked to me like the writer was deliberately "spoiling for a fight," just daring people to argue in rebuttal.

Just to make up an example of what I'm trying to say, I think there is a difference between "Obama Health Plan is Socialism!" and "Elements of Socialism in Obama's Health Plan?" The first looks to me like an attack on the President and deliberately dares his supporters to come to his defense. The second asks a question and opens the door for a discussion and a sharing of opinions whether or not those opinions differ.

It was the deliberately provocative thread titles that I really disliked, and they sort of made me sad, too.

That happened--and although your example would come from a conservative--if the provocative thread titles were counted....there'd be as many or more that were begun by liberals.  
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Shasta542 on July 30, 2009, 03:08:24 pm
I know, and actually I do see it. But like I say, I don't know how to get around that. Most gay people and supporters of gay people (not all, I know!) tend to be liberal, and this site tends to attract people in those groups.

Yes, but I do think the insults have gone both ways. For example, I've seen some posts that suggest the poster feels the word "elite" automatically always goes in front of "leftists" or "liberals." And yes, it may sting less when one feels in the majority, just as "honky" is not as hurtful as the n-word, and "breeder" less hurtful than the f-word. Still, name calling and insults are not conducive to pleasant conversation or debate regardless of which way they flow.

I just think we should all try to keep these issues in mind and be as friendly, respectful and non-combative as possible.



Well. I'm glad that you see how it is. And I'm just saying this to let you all know that it is not an inviting place for differing views to be presented. You have to have a tough skin and some patience to say anything that strays off the beaten path.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on July 30, 2009, 03:40:15 pm
So, why don't we all join hands and sing....."we are the world".

 :)

Or "Kumbayah."  ;D
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on July 30, 2009, 03:43:32 pm
Or "Kumbayah."  ;D

Ah hell..... let's just sing both.!
 ;D
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Kerry on July 31, 2009, 12:43:07 am
Well. Here's my problem. I disagree a lot. And I try not to be snide or catty. But when I present a view that is different from the OP -- many times there are 6-8 people who come and give a rebuttal to whatever I say. I have to answer all those people and they just have to answer me. It's frustrating, so it's easier just to keep my mouth shut. You aren't going to see a lot of disagreement that way.  

It saddened me to read your posts, Shasta. Your contribution here at BetterMost is valued and respected. I hope you will always feel that BetterMost is a safe place, where you are free to express yourself.  I guess there's always going to be lots of different opinions with any given subject, particularly the political ones. But I wonder why you feel that you "have to answer all those people." When that happens to me, I don't feel the need to respond to someone who has criticized what I've posted. To give you an example, I recently contributed my thoughts at a particular thread. What I had to say had really been bugging me for some time. I'd given it a great deal of thought. I thought that what I wrote had value and also thought that by voicing my concerns, I would maybe bring it to other people's attention. Alas, that wasn't quite what happened. I got only one positive acknowledgment of my post and one negative response, describing in detail to me why that poster did not agree with me. I had two options open to me at that point. I could either respond to my respondent again, further emphasizing my already expressed point of view, or I could leave it where it was, figuring that I have given my opinion and he has given his - end of story - agree to disagree. I decided on the latter. Fact is, even friends don't always agree. I expressed my opinion and someone else expressed his opinion; an opinion I may not necessarily agree with, but most certainly respect. Another tactic I find useful when a thread is starting to hot up, is to log off for a little while and make a nice pot of tea. I often find that by taking a break from the fray, I have a totally different take on the proceedings when I return. I enjoy reading your posts Shasta, even though I may not necessarily always agree with you. {{{ Shasta }}}
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: serious crayons on July 31, 2009, 01:26:28 am
Another tactic I find useful when a thread is starting to hot up, is to log off for a little while and make a nice pot of tea. I often find that by taking a break from the fray, I have a totally different take on the proceedings when I return.

Good suggestion, Kerry!  :)

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Ellemeno on July 31, 2009, 03:07:46 am
Shasta, I enjoy your posts too, and encourage you to not feel compelled to answer everyone who disagrees with you.  You have several political viewpoints that are really different from mine, but it doesn't really matter to me.  I like when you write about your life, and your cousin, and your dogs.  I love the stories you tell.

:)

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Shasta542 on July 31, 2009, 05:45:36 am
It saddened me to read your posts, Shasta. Your contribution here at BetterMost is valued and respected. I hope you will always feel that BetterMost is a safe place, where you are free to express yourself.  I guess there's always going to be lots of different opinions with any given subject, particularly the political ones. But I wonder why you feel that you "have to answer all those people." When that happens to me, I don't feel the need to respond to someone who has criticized what I've posted. To give you an example, I recently contributed my thoughts at a particular thread. What I had to say had really been bugging me for some time. I'd given it a great deal of thought. I thought that what I wrote had value and also thought that by voicing my concerns, I would maybe bring it to other people's attention. Alas, that wasn't quite what happened. I got only one positive acknowledgment of my post and one negative response, describing in detail to me why that poster did not agree with me. I had two options open to me at that point. I could either respond to my respondent again, further emphasizing my already expressed point of view, or I could leave it where it was, figuring that I have given my opinion and he has given his - end of story - agree to disagree. I decided on the latter. Fact is, even friends don't always agree. I expressed my opinion and someone else expressed his opinion; an opinion I may not necessarily agree with, but most certainly respect. Another tactic I find useful when a thread is starting to hot up, is to log off for a little while and make a nice pot of tea. I often find that by taking a break from the fray, I have a totally different take on the proceedings when I return. I enjoy reading your posts Shasta, even though I may not necessarily always agree with you. {{{ Shasta }}}

Thank you, Kerry. I know that is best. Many times someone will say---well, she doesn't answer what I've said, so she must not have an answer (or something along that line) . Then I feel challenged, I guess. It's hard not to respond, but I know I should try to take your advice.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Shasta542 on July 31, 2009, 06:03:54 am
Shasta, I enjoy your posts too, and encourage you to not feel compelled to answer everyone who disagrees with you.  You have several political viewpoints that are really different from mine, but it doesn't really matter to me.  I like when you write about your life, and your cousin, and your dogs.  I love the stories you tell.

:)

Thank you.  I'm glad you like my dog stories....I have plenty of those.

Sometimes I feel like I should answer everyone because they are all agreeing with each other and I'm in the minority practically every time. I miss the people who hold some of my same viewpoints. I don't mind people having other ideas/beliefs as long as they don't act smug or try to make me feel ignorant because of my ideas/beliefs. Then I get my "shackles" up!!! (I know it's "hackles" but we say that to our dogs. My family has a separate language for our very spoiled pets.)  :P 8) :D

But I am glad that others have let me know they feel the same way. They just don't want to get into discussing their different ideals on the board. That's their prerogative and probably how they keep from getting upset. It's just nice to know that I'm really not the only conservative. And I'm not actually all that conservative for my area, but I seem to be on this forum.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on July 31, 2009, 08:56:10 am
Shasta, I enjoy your posts too, and encourage you to not feel compelled to answer everyone who disagrees with you.  You have several political viewpoints that are really different from mine, but it doesn't really matter to me.  I like when you write about your life, and your cousin, and your dogs.  I love the stories you tell.

:)



Oy, do I ever understand what Shasta is saying, though. That feeling, that urge, that you just have to answer everyone who answers you is mighty powerful.  :-\
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: serious crayons on July 31, 2009, 10:47:25 am
I miss the people who hold some of my same viewpoints.

Well, you could always encourage them to post here, too. When you feel really outnumbered on an issue, they could step in and add their voices. Almost all of those people are still perfectly welcome here, and they can always post in both places.

Oy, do I ever understand what Shasta is saying, though. That feeling, that urge, that you just have to answer everyone who answers you is mighty powerful.  :-\

That's true.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: delalluvia on July 31, 2009, 12:01:56 pm
What Kerry said Shasta.  Perhaps it comes from a decision I made in my life a long time ago, but you don't ever have to feel obligated to answer or acknowledge everyone's post.  It's not a matter of disrespect or ignoring them, it's - for me anyway - just a time saver.  Perhaps the poster has said something that's already been brought up and is emphasizing their support or offering another example.  There is no need to respond or acknowledge posts like that.

Or sometimes you can feel that you've said all you can say about a subject and just let it lie.
 
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: serious crayons on July 31, 2009, 01:30:42 pm
boy do I know how that feels .... I'm as stuborn as a mule sometimes .... if I'm upset about something then I can't let it lie.:-\

Me neither, but I'm trying to learn that not only is it not necessary to keep rebutting but often it's a losing proposition.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Jeff Wrangler on July 31, 2009, 01:31:04 pm
boy do I know how that feels .... I'm as stuborn as a mule sometimes .... if I'm upset about something then I can't let it lie.:-\

Moreover, if someone seems to be responding directly to something that I wrote, I'm afraid I'm being rude if I don't at least acknowledge the response--with another post.  :-\
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Kelda on July 31, 2009, 02:40:29 pm
boy do I know how that feels .... I'm as stuborn as a mule sometimes .... if I'm upset about something then I can't let it lie.:-\
#

Me too! See Shasta - you're not the only one that feels that way, I ahave been know to et things go but I'm not so good at it as Kerry is!

And Shasta can I just say, you're a bright spot for me at Bettermost.  :-*
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Shasta542 on July 31, 2009, 03:23:07 pm
#

Me too! See Shasta - you're not the only one that feels that way, I ahave been know to et things go but I'm not so good at it as Kerry is!

And Shasta can I just say, you're a bright spot for me at Bettermost.  :-*

Thank you, Kelda.  :-* Same here!  You are very good at trying your best to look at both sides. You have been that way ever since I've been here. I appreciate that. I'm sure many people do.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on August 01, 2009, 05:25:02 pm
I know. It's much better when everybody agrees with everything, isn't it? Utopia.

 ;)

UTOPIA
The word comes from Greek: οὐ, "not", and τόπος, "place".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia

I guess Utopia is no place at all, and resides entirely inside the imaginations of those attempting to create it.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on August 01, 2009, 05:40:32 pm
I can understand your dilemma, Shasta. But how else could it work? You tend to be politically conservative, and you're on a site where the majority of members tend to be politically liberal (note: there are of course varying degrees, exceptions, overlap, etc.). If you want to express a view that's different from the OP's, most likely others will want to express a view that is different from yours. But it needn't get hostile or insulting.

I welcome a diversity of opinions here, as long as people express them respectfully. I've been really pleased with the tone here over the past few weeks, and would be happy if people with minority viewpoints would jump in and discuss them while maintaining that friendly atmosphere.

Hi Crayons!  :)

As usual what you have said is mostly true. I agree the political mean of frequently posting Bettermostians is far left of center, and moving further to left since many conservatives spend more time off site than before. And the problem really isn't those gang attacks on conservatives, that resembled poor Tippy Hedren being pecked to death by all those Ravens and Gulls in Hitchcock's masterpiece "The Birds".

(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg232/brokeplex/silverscreen/birds.jpg)

No, that wasn't the basic underlying problem that developed on Bettermost about a year ago. The problem, IMO, is the censorship that resulted from the "New Civility". I remember the days when Phillip's bottom line rule was  NO DIRECT PERSONAL ATTACKS. PERIOD, END OF STORY. But, as the mods got a whip hand because of the new civility, the whiners and complainers started their whining and complaining and the censoring started.

Nothing harms a social networking opinion site more successfully than censorship. Without the censorship there would be no "Retreat", so in a sense, the mods and the whiners created the "Retreat". Thanks, we are very pleased with Jess's handiwork.  :)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: serious crayons on August 01, 2009, 06:20:21 pm
Hi Crayons!  :)

Hi 'plex! :)

Quote
No, that wasn't the basic underlying problem that developed on Bettermost about a year ago. The problem, IMO, is the censorship that resulted from the "New Civility". I remember the days when Phillip's bottom line rule was  NO DIRECT PERSONAL ATTACKS. PERIOD, END OF STORY. But, as the mods got a whip hand because of the new civility, the whiners and complainers started their whining and complaining and the censoring started.

Well, I guess we'll never agree on what constitutes censorship (technically, it has to be undertaken by the government; the First Amendment does not guarantee freedom of expression in a publication/site/broadcast channel that is privately paid for). Nor, apparently, will we agree about the whining/complaining/"censoring"/troublemaking or what its effect was.

Quote
Nothing harms a social networking opinion site more successfully than censorship. Without the censorship there would be no "Retreat", so in a sense, the mods and the whiners created the "Retreat". Thanks, we are very pleased with Jess's handiwork.  :)

I'm glad to hear it! As someone whose posts were consistently "censored" from Jess' blog, I wouldn't presume to register there. So I will take your word for it that everyone there is having a good time. It seems a happy ending all around.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on August 01, 2009, 06:36:24 pm
Hi 'plex! :)

Well, I guess we'll never agree on what constitutes censorship (technically, it has to be undertaken by the government; the First Amendment does not guarantee freedom of expression in a publication/site/broadcast channel that is privately paid for). Nor, apparently, will we agree about the whining/complaining/"censoring"/troublemaking or what its effect was.

I'm glad to hear it! As someone whose posts were consistently "censored" from Jess' blog, I wouldn't presume to register there. So I will take your word for it that everyone there is having a good time. It seems a happy ending all around.



censorship vs CENSORSHIP? ok, I will go along with that discussion, and within the context of a discussion of Constitutional liberties, a mod or two on this opinion forum deleting some posts or some language in the posts is small potatoes. but that isn't really the issue, the issue is the effects on the discussion forum when posts are deleted or modified because someone, somewhere found the post irksome or offensive or annoying. what this type of "censorship" does is to trivialize the discussions, and create an impression of unfairness and one-sidedness. of course it doesn't affect our constitutional liberties of freedom of speech, after all, a "censored" member can wander off and post his or her thoughts somewhere else. but it hurts the opinion site.

and censoring or modifying posts on a personal blog is a different kettle of fish than doing the same thing on the public forum. it did not pass notice that some of the members on Bettemost made an attempt to hijack some of the private blogs. in fact that happened on Wally and Beve's Room, and HK stopped that quickly. I might not have deleted as extensively as he did, but I agreed with his actions.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: louisev on August 01, 2009, 07:19:30 pm
censorship vs CENSORSHIP? ok, I will go along with that discussion, and within the context of a discussion of Constitutional liberties, a mod or two on this opinion forum deleting some posts or some language in the posts is small potatoes. but that isn't really the issue, the issue is the effects on the discussion forum when posts are deleted or modified because someone, somewhere found the post irksome or offensive or annoying. what this type of "censorship" does is to trivialize the discussions, and create an impression of unfairness and one-sidedness. of course it doesn't affect our constitutional liberties of freedom of speech, after all, a "censored" member can wander off and post his or her thoughts somewhere else. but it hurts the opinion site.

and censoring or modifying posts on a personal blog is a different kettle of fish than doing the same thing on the public forum. it did not pass notice that some of the members on Bettemost made an attempt to hijack some of the private blogs. in fact that happened on Wally and Beve's Room, and HK stopped that quickly.I might not have deleted as extensively as he did, but I agreed with his actions.



But I'm afraid the onus is on you to demonstrate that what constitutes "censorship" was not merely the discretion of the moderators in removing personal attacks and hostile language that caused discussions, particularly those in the Current Events forum, to degenerate into non-productive conflicts between the same residents over and over again.  The mods who volunteered to moderate that area bent over backwards to give fair warning, to encourage civil discussion and self-moderation - and that included every one of us posting there, whether we were moderators or regular ol' residents - and to give preference to locking a thread for general overall conflict that failed to resolve after things went on too long or the debate became circular or veered completely off-topic.  It was a great deal of effort to do this, and was not willy-nilly and it was not a whim by one person.    You clearly see it from the lens of your own experience here, but no one person acts in a unilateral fashion to simply delete things they don't like.  That has never happened here, and Phillip would never permit it to happen.  We did not install "civility police" - the policy was clearly laid out in order to handle the routine daily conflict that the Current Events area had become during and after the 2008 election.  So I take issue with your characterization of censorship as leading to trivializing the discussisons here or making it all one sided.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 01, 2009, 07:25:17 pm
Bill, I am really glad you are happier at the Retreat !!

Sounds like it's a win/win.

I guess you could look at the accusations that people were censored as whinning and complaining, but
as long as you found a place you feel comfortable in.......  that is great.

Have a good life.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 01, 2009, 07:28:19 pm
I do see some that retreated to the "retreat" continue to come on here, so I guess it wasn't all that bad.

 :)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Luvlylittlewing on August 02, 2009, 12:44:18 am
Good point, Bailey.  If they're having such a glorious time over at the Retereat, why come over here?  I'm not trying to chase people away, I'm just trying to understand.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: serious crayons on August 02, 2009, 01:07:58 am
Hey crayons, :)  ... is your avatar a painting?  From the teeny weeny picture I can see, it looks really good  :D... did you paint it?

Thank you, Susie!  :)  My avatar is a picture of mountains -- drawn in crayons! I didn't draw it, though. I found it on the web.


but that isn't really the issue, the issue is the effects on the discussion forum when posts are deleted or modified because someone, somewhere found the post irksome or offensive or annoying. what this type of "censorship" does is to trivialize the discussions, and create an impression of unfairness and one-sidedness.

Eye of the beholder, brokeplex. Lots of people thought that it was the irksome, offensive and annoying posts themselves that trivialized the discussions and created an atmosphere of hostility and unpleasantness.

Quote
and censoring or modifying posts on a personal blog is a different kettle of fish than doing the same thing on the public forum. it did not pass notice that some of the members on Bettemost made an attempt to hijack some of the private blogs. in fact that happened on Wally and Beve's Room, and HK stopped that quickly. I might not have deleted as extensively as he did, but I agreed with his actions.

The incidents that I referred to in which my posts were deleted from a blog (not W&B's Room) were not attempts to hijack the blog, but simply a post or two I made attempting to set the record straight when my own posts, on other threads, were misquoted and misrepresented. Apparently accuracy was not a primary concern when it's more fun to ridicule and mock. But that's all water under the bridge. It barely mattered then, and not at all now.

Like I said, everybody's happy now, and it's all good.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on August 02, 2009, 03:02:48 am
why come over here? 

Because some of the people here are actually reasonable adults with something valuable to offer. Some of the others are a pain in my ass.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Sheriff Roland on August 02, 2009, 05:57:55 am
I've modified Milo's early morning post. Thanks to those who complied with my request not to react to the taunts.

Sheriff Roland
moderator, Anything Goes
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Mikaela on August 02, 2009, 06:30:05 am
I responded to Milo's post above and then I read on to get to Roland's mod post.

I am altering my post accordingly -for now.

However, if the post is left as is, it's only fair that people are allowed to respond, IMO.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Kerry on August 02, 2009, 10:12:00 am

I like it  :D


I like it too. I'd love to see the drawing full-size.  :D
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: serious crayons on August 02, 2009, 10:29:33 am
Thank you, Susie and Kerry!  :-* :-* Here it is. Reminded me a little of BBM.



(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j266/thisiskaty/a1crayonlandscape.jpg)



I used to draw in crayons, myself. I mean, seriously (LOL), when I was in my early 20s. I remember doing a picture in blues of a nude couple standing in water, and then another one of Adam from the Sistine chapel ceiling that I handed in to my college drawing class when we were assigned to make our own version of a famous Renaissance painting. I figured, mine won't be the best picture (most of the other students were real artists, whereas I was sort of a moderately talented amateur), but damn it, mine will be the only one done in crayons.




Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Kerry on August 02, 2009, 10:40:59 am
Thank you, Susie and Kerry!  :-* :-* Here it is. Reminded me a little of BBM.

(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j266/thisiskaty/a1crayonlandscape.jpg)

I used to draw in crayons, myself. I mean, seriously (LOL), when I was in my early 20s. I remember doing a picture in blues of a nude couple standing in water, and then another one of Adam from the Sistine chapel ceiling that I handed in to my college drawing class when we were assigned to make our own version of a famous Renaissance painting. I figured, mine won't be the best picture (most of the other students were real artists, whereas I was sort of a moderately talented amateur), but damn it, mine will be the only one done in crayons.


It's beautiful, Katherine. I love the use of colour. And yes, it is very reminiscent of ole Brokeback.  :D
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: serious crayons on August 02, 2009, 12:37:40 pm

 I love it .... and if you look at it differently, it could also be a view of a very choppy the sea looking down through one of the coves in Cornwall  :) ... I'll have to get my talented daughter to try her hand at crayons ...I'm sure she'd do wonders with them  :D

Definitely. They're great -- cheap, easily accessible, easy to control, lots of lovely colors.

Quote
Do you still draw Katherine?

No. I used to draw constantly as a kid, mostly pencil. In my teens, I did oil and acrylics, in my 20s, watercolor. But that was all BK (before kids). I haven't done anything like that in years on years, but now that they're getting old enough to amuse themselves (most of the time, anyway) I should get back to it!



Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 02, 2009, 12:45:42 pm
You should get back to it Katherine.

 :)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Ellemeno on August 02, 2009, 02:04:20 pm
Katherine, I love finding out that you are an artist.  I'm trying to think of a Brokieism that fits.  The only one that comes to mind is that it would be a sweet life to see some of your drawings and paintings.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Mikaela on August 02, 2009, 02:09:12 pm

No. I used to draw constantly as a kid, mostly pencil. In my teens, I did oil and acrylics, in my 20s, watercolor. But that was all BK (before kids). I haven't done anything like that in years on years, but now that they're getting old enough to amuse themselves (most of the time, anyway) I should get back to it!

Joining the chorus of people who hope you'll take up again the drawing. It's so rewarding and engaging.



I used to draw, too - pencil and kohl drawings, back in the day, but RL happened and now I haven't really done anything serious about it in years. That's one drawback to the internet activities, fun as they are - they eat up all my spare time.  :-\
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: LauraGigs on August 02, 2009, 02:18:39 pm
Katherine, I love finding out that you are an artist.  I'm trying to think of a Brokieism that fits.  The only one that comes to mind is that it would be a sweet life to see some of your drawings and paintings.


Sure enough!

Or maybe, "Mommy, Crayons needs crayons."
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Ellemeno on August 02, 2009, 02:30:00 pm

Sure enough!

Or maybe, "Mommy, Crayons needs crayons."



OF COURSE!  That's why you picked that phrase, K!  Ahhh, it becomes clear.  I am so excited.  Please show us sumpn.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Ellemeno on August 02, 2009, 02:30:52 pm
And Mikaela, I'd love to see some of yours too.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: serious crayons on August 02, 2009, 02:31:21 pm
Thanks, everybody!  :D :-*

And Mikaela, I hear you about the internet taking over everything else. Maybe it's not actually my kids who are to blame for art falling by the wayside.


One of the last watercolors I did I framed and gave to a friend -- it was done from a photo taken while we were traveling together. She hung it on her wall. One day, at a party, one of our newspaper coworkers saw it and liked it.

He said, "Wow, what are you doing in journalism?!"

I said, "Um, thanks. I guess."

 :laugh:



Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Ellemeno on August 02, 2009, 02:56:46 pm
Thanks, everybody!  :D :-*

And Mikaela, I hear you about the internet taking over everything else. Maybe it's not actually my kids who are to blame for art falling by the wayside.


One of the last watercolors I did I framed and gave to a friend -- it was done from a photo taken while we were traveling together. She hung it on her wall. One day, at a party, one of our newspaper coworkers saw it and liked it.

He said, "Wow, what are you doing in journalism?!"

I said, "Um, thanks. I guess."

 :laugh:







Next time you have a hankering to change your username, you could call yourself Journartiste.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on August 02, 2009, 02:58:52 pm
post removed

Sheriff Roland
moderator, Anything Goes

Wrong. I'm not implying squat. Try reading what I actually wrote instead of trying to "interpret" a meaning that is clearly engineered to put me in violation of the board's rules. When I say that some members are A, that does not mean that most members are B. If you want to know the truth, there are actually only a handful of people that come across as any of those things, IMO. I am not indicting the entire population of Bettermost. I'm simply saying that there are some people that I like here, and some people that I don't like. If I were to say anything at all about most Bettermostians, I would have to say that, looking at sheer numbers, I have not encountered most of the members here at all.

Personal attack?? Group attack?? Hardly. My post was no more a personal/group attack than other posters who write that there are homophobes and apologists among the population here. If those comments can stand, then so will mine. I will not voluntarily alter the post to which you refer, because I see no difference between the two statements. Yes, mine was more "colorful"... so what??

Holla back at me when you and the Admin personnel are done with your discussions.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: LauraGigs on August 02, 2009, 03:01:56 pm
Milo, I have to ask...  who's being dramatic now?
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Marge_Innavera on August 02, 2009, 03:10:12 pm
Arguably, that's what a lot of this discussion is about. 
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 02, 2009, 03:14:22 pm
Milo, I have to ask...  who's being dramatic now?

Agreed !!!

I would say the this all sounds like drama queen, crybaby talk.
If some don't agree with you, drama starts.
Nobody is right all the time.

I might not agree, or not like some on here, but I would NEVER insinuate some people on here are
fucking useless or sissy.  

If that isn't a personal attack, I don't know what is.

You can color it however you want, but it was intended to be nasty, and trying to paint it
as anything other then a less then vague personal attack on those you don't like here is
ludicrous.

You even said the same thing on another thread here and I still don't understand why it was left to
stand.

Good luck to you Milo
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 02, 2009, 03:17:00 pm
Arguably, that's what a lot of this discussion is about. 

It really is.

I guess that is what the ignore button is for.

Let me go find it.

 :)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on August 02, 2009, 03:18:25 pm
NO ONE on this site is "fuckin useless"!!  And you saying so is a personal attack, no matter how you try to intellectualise it.  If you honestly don't see it that way, then the rest of this discussion is going to be pretty pointless.

I don't. Its not personal because I didn't name names.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 02, 2009, 03:18:51 pm
Oh, Katherine, you should start painting again and sell your stuff on ebay !!!!!!!

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Mikaela on August 02, 2009, 03:21:18 pm
Throwing around generalized ugly and offensive characteristics represents no more than colourful statements?

Well, allright then.  ???

For the sake of good order I'd like to point out that you forgot to include "misogynists" among your list of what *some* Bettermostians are. Because some surely fit that bill too.

Also, I agree with what others have said here - calling some, or even one, "fucking useless" can't be seen as anything less than offensive whichever way you look at it.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on August 02, 2009, 03:28:44 pm
For the sake of good order I'd like to point out that you forgot to include "misogynists" among your list of what *some* Bettermostians are. Because some surely fit that bill too.

Also, I agree with what others have said here - calling some, or even one, "fucking useless" can't be seen as anything less than offensive whichever way you look at it.

I'm sure there are some misogynists here too. You're probably more sensitive that than I am.

I don't see how my post was any more offensive than what has been posted here time and again about Christians, Republicans, men in the closet, straight men, etc. And each of those groups has representatives here at Bettermost too.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Mikaela on August 02, 2009, 03:30:01 pm
Well, I'm checking out of this.

We've been told mods/admin are looking at the situation and they've sure gotten something more to look at.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 02, 2009, 03:33:56 pm
Well, I'm checking out of this.

We've been told mods/admin are looking at the situation and they've sure gotten something more to look at.

Yep !!
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 02, 2009, 03:55:45 pm
... but I'm just too darn nosey!!  :P

It's a great tool !!!

No more drama queen posts. 

 ;)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: serious crayons on August 02, 2009, 05:06:41 pm
Oh, Katherine, you should start painting again and sell your stuff on ebay !!!!!!!

I guess for some reason I've been finding it more entertaining and productive to spend my time exchanging insults with people online.  :laugh:


I'm reading this great book Rapt, by Winifred Gallagher (wisely recommended, for the record, by our own Front-Ranger!). One of the many excellent points she makes is that people tend to be much happier when they're doing activities that are creative, absorbing, engaging, etc. For example, playing the piano, woodworking, writing, gardening, gourmet cooking, etc. (different things for different people, obviously).

However, those activities require a certain degree of concentration, preparation and energy. People come home from work and they don't want to go to the bother. Instead, they turn on the TV (or computer). So they wind up spending 80 percent of their time doing something that, in the end, they don't find as rewarding. And that ends up being their life.


Disclaimer: Coming here, to me, is about socializing with friends and often requires thinking -- about one's opinions, about how to express one's thoughts, about learning new things, etc. -- so it's not in exactly the same category as watching mindless TV. I have to wonder, though, if when I come here and wind up engaging in bitchfests if I'm making the best use of my time.


Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: oilgun on August 02, 2009, 06:33:49 pm
Hmmmmmm I remember someone else who used to use that excuse  ::) ..... doesn't cut it for me though.  :-\

I sometimes wonder if you're just doing this for sport Milo ... it's kinda fun winding everyone up like this isn't it?  :P

The last time I checked out The Retreat, that was over a week ago before I went on vacation, there was some talk of a competition to see who would be kicked out of BM first so I wouldn't put too much credence in these people's posts anymore.  Is Trolling considered a sport?

Anyway, my vacation turned out great!  Despite a poor forecast,  just about everyday gave us wonderful beach weather.  
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 02, 2009, 06:35:57 pm
Gary, I think the best course of action is not to engage, in any manner, with those that think we are 'tards.

People can only hurt us if we let them.

The kind of people who act like we are useless fucks will turn around some day and be all alone.

 ;)

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 02, 2009, 06:37:54 pm
The last time I checked out The Retreat, that was over a week ago before I went on vacation, there was some talk of a competition to see who would be kicked out of BM first so I wouldn't put too much credence in these people's posts anymore.  Is Trolling considered a sport?

Anyway, my vacation turned out great!  Despite a poor forecast,  just about everyday gave us wonderful beach weather.  

Well, good luck to them !

Oilgun, I hope you had a great vacation. 
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: delalluvia on August 02, 2009, 06:55:53 pm
Quote
Coming here, to me, is about socializing with friends and often requires thinking -- about one's opinions, about how to express one's thoughts, about learning new things, etc. -- so it's not in exactly the same category as watching mindless TV. I have to wonder, though, if when I come here and wind up engaging in bitchfests if I'm making the best use of my time.

I think having discussions with people with a variety of viewpoints can be challenging and rewarding, even when you strongly disagree with one or more of those involved in the discussion.  But I think there sometimes comes a point when the whole thing becomes way too personal.  I think when that happens, you just need to force yourself to walk away.  I'm giving that advice, but I'll admit it's very hard for me to do that sometimes.

I think it's rewarding, whether a bitchfest or just a discussion. 

For many, this is the only outlet we have where we feel free to be honest, direct and upfront (to a point of course).  Perhaps in our daily lives we are surrounded with people who cannot or will not tolerate such openness and honesty and thus we live our lives forever having to crouch our terms, map out in advance how to approach a subject, beat around the bush, avoid some topics of interest all together and basically walk on eggshells with everything that comes out of our mouths.

Internet forums can be a refreshing break from this.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 02, 2009, 07:02:28 pm
That reminds me of Big Brother a few years ago.  When they all went into the house, Makosi's first secret task was to get herself nominated for eviction.  If she managed to get the highest number of nominations, she would be exempt from eviction that week.  She could use any means to get nominated, but she had to keep her task a complete secret.

She behaved so badly, winding everyone up by doing and saying the most awful things.  By the end of the week everyone hated her, they'd all yelled at her, fallen out with her, bitched about her..... it was hilarious!!!  :)

Hell !  Maybe there is a $500K prize at the bottom of all this !

 :o
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: oilgun on August 02, 2009, 07:05:49 pm
Where did you go?  :)

For the last 9 years i've been renting a cottage in Grand Bend on lake Huron:

(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w197/oilgun/ABC%20Movies/GB09-BEACH-02.jpg)

(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w197/oilgun/ABC%20Movies/GB09-BEACH-GIL-01.jpg)
A 'tard on the beach, lol!
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 02, 2009, 07:10:30 pm
For the last 9 years i've been renting a cottage in Grand Bend on lake Huron:

(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w197/oilgun/ABC%20Movies/GB09-BEACH-02.jpg)

(http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w197/oilgun/ABC%20Movies/GB09-BEACH-GIL-01.jpg)
A 'tard on the beach, lol!

Awwww....  that looks so nice and peaceful.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Front-Ranger on August 02, 2009, 07:27:54 pm


(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j266/thisiskaty/a1crayonlandscape.jpg)


That's very very nice!! I believe you now when you say, "Mama, I need crayons."   ;D
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Mikaela on August 02, 2009, 07:32:22 pm
I think having discussions with people with a variety of viewpoints can be challenging and rewarding, even when you strongly disagree with one or more of those involved in the discussion.  But I think there sometimes comes a point when the whole thing becomes way too personal.  I think when that happens, you just need to force yourself to walk away.  I'm giving that advice, but I'll admit it's very hard for me to do that sometimes.


I started posting in the current events forum because I was genuinely interested in understanding the viewpoints of Conservative Americans. They've shaped so much of what has happened in the world the last ten years, and yet their views and political actions sometimes seemed completely unintelligible and quite dreadful to me.

On occasion there actually has been some clarification of the background and reasoning behind conservative views here in the BM discussions, and though I did not agree with the views at least it gave me insight in the arguments and what the thinking is. Actual lucidly stated reasons that did not just revolve around "the opposition is a bunch of morons nyah-nyah".

But by and large it has been nothing but name-calling, mocking, spite and ridicule of the "liberals" (who by European standards are positively ultra-conservative in many respects). I haven't gotten much wiser but I sure have gotten more disillusioned about how far people are willing to go and what they will let themselves say and do to "defend" viewpoints that to me in many cases come across as inhumane, prejudiced, nationalistic and sometimes downright dangerous. And as incomprehensible as ever.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on August 02, 2009, 07:54:35 pm
But by and large it has been nothing but name-calling, mocking, spite and ridicule of the "liberals" (who by European standards are positively ultra-conservative in many respects).

What about the name-calling, mocking, spite, and ridicule coming from some of the liberals?? I have posted carefully thought out opinions on matter regarding politics, sexual identity, and other current events, only to have some people reply with responses like,"I'm speechless," "Shocking," and "Unbelievable." Some go so far as to impugn me personally rather than debate the ideas I put on the table. That's kind of discourse I'm talking about that comes from the "crybaby" contingent. Its the kind of stuff that makes me lose respect for those individuals.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on August 02, 2009, 08:00:53 pm
Thank you, Susie!  :)  My avatar is a picture of mountains -- drawn in crayons! I didn't draw it, though. I found it on the web.


that is a nice drawing, reminds me of the Sapphire mountains in MT.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 02, 2009, 08:00:58 pm
I started posting in the current events forum because I was genuinely interested in understanding the viewpoints of Conservative Americans. They've shaped so much of what has happened in the world the last ten years, and yet their views and political actions sometimes seemed completely unintelligible and quite dreadful to me.

On occasion there actually has been some clarification of the background and reasoning behind conservative views here in the BM discussions, and though I did not agree with the views at least it gave me insight in the arguments and what the thinking is. Actual lucidly stated reasons that did not just revolve around "the opposition is a bunch of morons nyah-nyah".

But by and large it has been nothing but name-calling, mocking, spite and ridicule of the "liberals" (who by European standards are positively ultra-conservative in many respects). I haven't gotten much wiser but I sure have gotten more disillusioned about how far people are willing to go and what they will let themselves say and do to "defend" viewpoints that to me in many cases come across as inhumane, prejudiced, nationalistic and sometimes downright dangerous. And as incomprehensible as ever.

I'm sorry Mikaela.

Sometimes the debate goes too far.  When you try so hard to convince someone you are right, that is when
it gets too personal.

I'm not going to change anyones mind, and I don't even want to try anymore.  I'm just keeping my viewpoints to myself.

 :D


Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 02, 2009, 08:04:10 pm
Hey Katherine, maybe you could do a drawing for me to display in my new house... when I get it !!!

Something to remind me of Brokeback Mountain.

 ;D
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on August 02, 2009, 08:06:08 pm
Wrong. I'm not implying squat. Try reading what I actually wrote instead of trying to "interpret" a meaning that is clearly engineered to put me in violation of the board's rules. When I say that some members are A, that does not mean that most members are B. If you want to know the truth, there are actually only a handful of people that come across as any of those things, IMO. I am not indicting the entire population of Bettermost. I'm simply saying that there are some people that I like here, and some people that I don't like. If I were to say anything at all about most Bettermostians, I would have to say that, looking at sheer numbers, I have not encountered most of the members here at all.

Personal attack?? Group attack?? Hardly. My post was no more a personal/group attack than other posters who write that there are homophobes and apologists among the population here. If those comments can stand, then so will mine. I will not voluntarily alter the post to which you refer, because I see no difference between the two statements. Yes, mine was more "colorful"... so what??

Holla back at me when you and the Admin personnel are done with your discussions.

And the beat goes on.  ;)

Milo, tsk, tsk, tsk,  you forgot that nothing not fully approved by the Newspeak Subcommittee of the full Central Committee of the Presidium of the General Party Congress SHALL appear in Pravda, in the lines or between the lines.

My brother, go thy way and transgress no mas. :-X
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: serious crayons on August 02, 2009, 08:08:25 pm
I think it's rewarding, whether a bitchfest or just a discussion. 

For many, this is the only outlet we have where we feel free to be honest, direct and upfront (to a point of course).

I should clarify that I don't mean we can't talk in an honest, direct and upfront manner from a variety of viewpoints. I mean when it gets down to hurling insults back and forth I'm not sure it's the best use of my time.

Not sure where you would draw the line, Del, but I don't usually think of you as an insult-hurler. I know you like a vigorous debate, and so do I.



the "liberals" (who by European standards are positively ultra-conservative in many respects).

Wha' ...?!  :o :laugh:



Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on August 02, 2009, 08:10:44 pm
I don't. Its not personal because I didn't name names.

Milo, Milo, Milo - you are using the old rules Phillip established back in 2006 and which worked so well for so long. You must turn the page to the "New Civility" rules established by the Mods (while in general convention I guess) shortly after the election of Chairman Maobama.

Under the "New Civility" rules, you do not have to make a direct personal attack on a member to be censored, now censorable statements are all in the eye of the beholder.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 02, 2009, 08:13:36 pm
As someone here said to me in a recent post !!!

"Hey...life is unfair, and we don't exist to make you happy. Get used to it. "

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on August 02, 2009, 08:17:16 pm
Gary, I think the best course of action is not to engage, in any manner, with those that think we are 'tards.

now, now, now - did you mean to write "tards" as in "retards". sadly, that sounds like an attack on the "differently abled".

couldn't that be construed as a personal attack?  :o

personally, I defend your right to say what you mean, and it doesn't bother me if you think my IQ in particular is diminished! But, shouldn't the same rules that have been applied to Milo and his posts, apply also to your posts?

just asking.  :)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 02, 2009, 08:21:56 pm
now, now, now - did you mean to write "tards" as in "retards". sadly, that sounds like an attack on the "differently abled".

couldn't that be construed as a personal attack?  :o

personally, I defend your right to say what you mean, and it doesn't bother me if you think my IQ in particular is diminished! But, shouldn't the same rules that have been applied to Milo and his posts, apply also to your posts?

just asking.  :)

Actually, it could be construed as a personal attack, but it is in reference to a comment AJ made in your new forum in describing members of Bettermost.

 ;)

Ya need to catch up!

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on August 02, 2009, 08:24:49 pm
Under the "New Civility" rules, you do not have to make a direct personal attack on a member to be censored, now censorable statements are all in the eye of the beholder.

That's going to make discussing political issues kind of difficult.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on August 02, 2009, 08:25:40 pm
Actually, it could be construed as a personal attack, but it is in reference to a comment AJ made in your new forum in describing members of Bettermost.

SOME members of Bettermost.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: LauraGigs on August 02, 2009, 08:30:07 pm
If the modding is so horrible here, one can always go to Dave Cullen.  Or EnnisJack.  I don't want BetterMost to lose anyone, regardless of political bent.  (And aren't there a million other things to share and talk about here for Pete's Sake?)  But if the climate in a particular place makes one so unhappy, I don't know why they'd stay – I wouldn't stay in a place that makes me that miserable.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: LauraGigs on August 02, 2009, 08:34:56 pm
Damn, I feel bad for saying that, now.  But I'm realizing that this thread is making ME miserable, so I'm out.    :-\
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 02, 2009, 08:36:02 pm
Damn, I feel bad for saying that, now.  But I'm realizing that this thread is making ME miserable, so I'm out.    :-\

You have no reason to feel bad.

You are only saying what many others are thinking, and have said already.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on August 02, 2009, 08:53:53 pm
Actually, it could be construed as a personal attack, but it is in reference to a comment AJ made in your new forum in describing members of Bettermost.

 ;)

Ya need to catch up!



thanks for the forum update. 

but look at it this way, the term "tard" is a disparaging term used in reference to mentally challenged people, and I think you might think twice about using it, even if you are not referring directly to mentally handicapped citizenry. I am sure you would never be so insensitive to consciously do that. 
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 02, 2009, 08:57:10 pm
thanks for the forum update. 

but look at it this way, the term "tard" is a disparaging term used in reference to mentally challenged people, and I think you might think twice about using it, even if you are not referring directly to mentally handicapped citizenry. I am sure you would never be so insensitive to consciously do that. 

We've been referring to that post quite a bit around here, so I think we all know it's origin and the
reason we are using it.

And, for what it's worth, my niece is mentally handicapped.

That is why I found AJ's reference to SOME people on here as offensive.

Not to mention childish as hell.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on August 02, 2009, 08:59:34 pm
That's going to make discussing political issues kind of difficult.

sorry Milo, but that has been the case for sometime. back in the days (2006 / 2007/ 2008) that Phillip enforced his "no direct personal attacks allowed" discussions were vibrant and pretty much free flowing - oh Artiste seemed to get in some trouble now and again  :laugh:.

But on the whole conservatives and the left had a free ranging discussion, but this all changed after the 2008 election, too many complaints about the tone of the debate, I guess?
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on August 02, 2009, 09:03:06 pm
It's interesting that you should say that because ... no... that old rule really didn't work that well at all, mainly because certain people here regularly abused it.

thank you for confirming my assumption that the "direct personal attack" rule was supplanted by the "new civility" rules because of complaints.  :)

but curiously, it was never established by anyone as to HOW the direct personal attack rule was abused and WHY the mods of that time couldn't enforce the rules.

I am all ears waiting for your response.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 02, 2009, 09:12:52 pm
thank you for confirming my assumption that the "direct personal attack" rule was supplanted by the "new civility" rules because of complaints.  :)

but curiously, it was never established by anyone as to HOW the direct personal attack rule was abused and WHY the mods of that time couldn't enforce the rules.

I am all ears waiting for your response.

Uh, Susie didn't say anything about complaints.

She just said it didn't work.


As to the question about the mods, why don't you ask them as we aren't privy to that information.


I realize you might be having a hard time moving on , but I'll post Milo's reponse to me when I was complaining about some comments made regarding us on your new forum.

"Hey...life is unfair, and we don't exist to make you happy. Get used to it."

 

.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on August 02, 2009, 09:39:29 pm
Uh, Susie didn't say anything about complaints.

She just said it didn't work.


As to the question about the mods, why don't you ask them as we aren't privy to that information.


I realize you might be having a hard time moving on , but I'll post Milo's reponse to me when I was complaining about some comments made regarding us on your new forum.

"Hey...life is unfair, and we don't exist to make you happy. Get used to it."


so, if it wasn't the case that the old rules didn't work because of too many complaints,

the only other choice is - they didn't work because for the mods because the mods just didn't like them.

gee, I don't remember this change in rules being put forward to an opinion vote by the membership.

as I recall the process of junking the old rules was as follows -

1) there was a thread created bemoaning the lack of "civility" , without defining the terms,

2) there was the announcement of the "new civility" rules, concerning which I was about the only member to loudly protest.

3) the mods began modifying and deleting posts which they subjectively "thought" were uncivil.

4) the exodus away from Bettermost began by those in the ideological minority



 :laugh: Karen, who exactly are the "we" that you mention here?  "Hey...life is unfair, and we don't exist to make you happy. Get used to it."

I think that you are taking far too large a burden on your shoulders trying to defend decisions already made in which you seem to have had no part.

you should relax.  ;)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 02, 2009, 09:41:32 pm
You missed the point, but whatever.

 ;D

You read it how you want honey, that is okay with me.

 ;)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: brokeplex on August 02, 2009, 09:45:55 pm
You missed the point, but whatever.

 ;D

You read it how you want honey, that is okay with me.

 ;)

have a great evening sweetness, we will be coming home to TX this Thursday, I will miss these cooler temps up here. good night!
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on August 02, 2009, 10:07:06 pm
2) there was the announcement of the "new civility" rules, concerning which I was about the only member to

Where were these rules posted?? Link, anybody??
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Kelda on August 03, 2009, 03:49:43 am
That reminds me of Big Brother a few years ago.  When they all went into the house, Makosi's first secret task was to get herself nominated for eviction.  If she managed to get the highest number of nominations, she would be exempt from eviction that week.  She could use any means to get nominated, but she had to keep her task a complete secret.

She behaved so badly, winding everyone up by doing and saying the most awful things.  By the end of the week everyone hated her, they'd all yelled at her, fallen out with her, bitched about her..... it was hilarious!!!  :)

And she was a bee-yatch by the end of it too! :P
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Kelda on August 03, 2009, 05:50:03 am
  :P
oh yeah .... but one of the most entertaining BB contestants ever!  :)

Heh, "Am I pregnant? Did I have sex in the jacuzzi?"

I haven't watched anything of BB this year.. apart from a few glipses when nothing else on the telly.. I missed the first few shows including the first night and I just never got into it. I tell you what I have a lot more time on my hands this summer as a result!!
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: RouxB on August 03, 2009, 06:17:52 am
Uh, Susie didn't say anything about complaints.

She just said it didn't work.


As to the question about the mods, why don't you ask them as we aren't privy to that information.



I am more than happy to answer any questions you might have as to why I made the decisions I made in moderating in CE, my philosophy regarding moderating and what prompted what is (mockingly) being called "The New Civility" as I had a very heavy hand in that one. I pretty much have nothing to hide (other than maintaining the privacy of others) and am pretty unemotional about most of what happens here other than a few  ::) now and again. 

If you genuinely want answers, I will honestly try to give them to you, keeping in mind that I probably won't discuss individual members without their consent. That option has always been available but only a handful of members have ever PM'd me with their concerns and I thank them.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Ellemeno on August 03, 2009, 10:02:40 am



4) the exodus away from Bettermost began by those in the ideological minority






Some exodus.  As Inigo Montoya says in The Princess Bride, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."  Ah, Mandy Patinkin.


Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: retropian on August 03, 2009, 01:02:47 pm
I wasn't going to post on this thread again, but reading the disparaging remarks and complaints by some about the Mod's and what they do, while not surprising seeing who posting those comments, prompted me to share a little of my experience. In the few instances I have communicated with a Mod I have found each of them to be completely fair and a class act. I know quite well they have bent over backwards to be fair and accommodating to those so called conservatives with whom I and others have had a conflict. That someone would turn on and attack Mod's who have gone out of their way to accommodate them is unfair and IMO vicious.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Ellemeno on August 03, 2009, 06:05:29 pm
I wasn't going to post on this thread again, but reading the disparaging remarks and complaints by some about the Mod's and what they do, while not surprising seeing who posting those comments, prompted me to share a little of my experience. In the few instances I have communicated with a Mod I have found each of them to be completely fair and a class act. I know quite well they have bent over backwards to be fair and accommodating to those so called conservatives with whom I and others have had a conflict. That someone would turn on and attack Mod's who have gone out of their way to accommodate them is unfair and IMO vicious.


That's very kind of you, Ian.  And right after I went and reduced the height of the image in your sig line too.  :)  (We treat everyone the same way on that, when we notice.)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on August 03, 2009, 09:44:24 pm
In the few instances I have communicated with a Mod I have found each of them to be completely fair and a class act. I know quite well they have bent over backwards to be fair and accommodating to those so called conservatives with whom I and others have had a conflict.

Individuals' mileage may vary.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: serious crayons on August 03, 2009, 10:41:58 pm
Can I just say? Not only am I left leaning, I'm an actual mod. I consider myself close friends with some of the mods, and at least casual friends with all of them. I also make some effort to stay within the rules. Yet I've had mods ask me to edit my posts on a number of occasions.

When that happens, I've always just complied. My posted words are not precious nuggets of gold, much as I'd sometimes like to think so,  ;D and it's not that big a deal to change them to avoid hurt feelings or additional conflict.

This is not something that only happens to some specific group of people. It's not based on politics, viewpoints, or personal likes and dislikes. It's about volunteer people doing their best to keep posts civil so that we can function as a community.


Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Kerry on August 03, 2009, 11:39:42 pm
I wasn't going to post on this thread again, but reading the disparaging remarks and complaints by some about the Mod's and what they do, while not surprising seeing who posting those comments, prompted me to share a little of my experience. In the few instances I have communicated with a Mod I have found each of them to be completely fair and a class act. I know quite well they have bent over backwards to be fair and accommodating to those so called conservatives with whom I and others have had a conflict. That someone would turn on and attack Mod's who have gone out of their way to accommodate them is unfair and IMO vicious.

 :-* {{{ IAN }}}  :-*
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: milomorris on August 03, 2009, 11:42:05 pm
Maybe my "ghetto" is showing, but one of the problems I have with the whole "attack" concept is that I don't believe that anything anybody can type on an Internet message board can be defined as an "attack." Attacks are made of flesh and blood and bone and bricks and bullets and blades. Anything less is just talk. Words can't actually hurt me. The worst they can do is make me think that the speaker is an ass.

As far as I'm concerned, this whole "personal attack" concept is about as harmful as a game of patty-cake. More personal injury is done daily by kids who kick sand in other kids' faces.
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Kerry on August 03, 2009, 11:44:33 pm

Internet message boards belong to the people who start them.  So membership is a privilege, not a right, and the owner is under no obligation to respect or tolerate all opinions and viewpoints.  Luckily, members here are allowed to complain about how this place is run.  I have certainly been critical, very critical, of the way Bettermost is run.  (So some of the liberals around here might think I’m a ‘tard, just like some of the conservatives do.   :P )  I’m one of those people who said that the “no personal attacks” rule was inadequate.  And I did this a long time before the election season got underway, and my reasons for voicing this complaint had nothing do to with party politics.  So if the rules here have changed in such a way as to allow mods more flexibility in dealing with incivility, then that’s fine with me.  If they use their discretion in ways that annoy me too much, I always have the option of going someplace else.  But I trust most of them to try to be fair to me and others.  I realize that they don’t see everything that I do, or necessarily interpret what they do see in the same way that I would, so I accept that if things aren’t going the way I like, then it’s up to me to say something.


Very eloquently and succinctly expressed, Gary. Thank you.  :)
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 04, 2009, 12:09:46 am


Some exodus.  As Inigo Montoya says in The Princess Bride, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."  Ah, Mandy Patinkin.




What exodus?

All those people still come on here.  One can't post, but they all still come on here.

Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: bailey1205 on August 04, 2009, 12:22:02 am
I believe the Androphile issue caused as much division as the politics thread.
Maybe more.

 
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: retropian on August 04, 2009, 12:36:36 am

That's very kind of you, Ian.  And right after I went and reduced the height of the image in your sig line too.  :)  (We treat everyone the same way on that, when we notice.)

Oh no, that's totally alright. I didn't know how to reduce the size myself, so I was lazy and figured it would get done for me! LOL!
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: retropian on August 04, 2009, 12:44:50 am
If you think the 'personal attack' rule is bullshit, then how come you report what you consider personal attacks on you to the mods?

Some people can dish it out but sure can't take it.
Then, when they feel they have been attacked, they turn into crybabies.

So true! I comment privately to someone a while ago, they come drop a trollish bomb on a thread and then hide behind the Mod's skirts when called out on their BS.

I really don't care what people are talking about on that other 'site' any longer.

I just hope we are giving those there enough to talk about, cause they sure don't seem
to be satisfied there, since they continue to come on here so much.


Yup. That's an Exodus fer sher, you betcha, also. ;D
Title: Re: Off-site discussion of BetterMost posts
Post by: Ellemeno on August 04, 2009, 01:16:15 am
Thread locked pending poor Roland having to figure out how to deal with this.  He has better things to do with his time, but no, he's going to wind up dealing with cranky rants about past crap.

If anyone felt like looking over their own posts and seeing where they could moderate their own words to sound more civil, I'm sure he would be much obliged.'

Edit by the Sheriff: I've deleted the last two posts that caused the Administrator to step in. I'm leaving the thread locked (for now) as the subject of this thread doesn't appear to be developping into anything but poorly thought out "crap".

"Anything Goes" doesn't mean attacking by subterfuge. This forum has been around for years and never before has anyone abused the meaning of it's intent as has been the case of late.