BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum
Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond => Brokeback Mountain Open Forum => Topic started by: Brown Eyes on August 11, 2006, 08:05:10 pm
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Greetings Open Forum Denizens!
So, a new topic has recently come to mind. The themes of mailboxes, the post office and related things seem to be very vital to the movie. And, I don't recall discussing this much around here. There was an old thread (it was relatively silly) on imdb about the importance of numbers and the instances of different numbers recurring in the film. During that discussion, the importance of that "17" that we see Ennis very deliberately put on his new mailbox was brought up... but not in a very satisfying way. So, I'll throw a few specific questions out there to start things off...
Why does the camera focus so specifically on Ennis putting the number "17"... or more accurately the number "1" and then the number "7" one after the other on his trailer's mailbox? He even stands back to look at it. Both the amount of time the camera lingers on it and Ennis's attention to it seem to indicate that the filmmakers want the audience to focus on this too. So, why?
Ennis seems a bit excited about this new mailbox... Why? Who is he expecting to get fun mail from now? It's a sad thought really.
After all of those years sending postcards back and forth... and Ennis's mail being relatively visible in the p.o. box in the tiny post office... is it safe to assume that much of Riverton was completely on to Ennis's big secret? Even though the postcards were written to seem innocent enough... don't we think that a lot of people would have started putting 2 and 2 together?
Why didn't they send letters in envelopes? If they had they could have communicated with each other better. They could have written longer notes and with the cover of an envelope they could have told each other more private things without so much worry about other people seeing.
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Good topic, Amanda!
Front-Ranger started a discussion about phones over on the CT board that eventually spread into mail issues, so maybe we can get into other forms of communication here, too.
OK, how about this. Hasn't it been 17 years since Jack sent Ennis the first postcard? (Reunion 1967, last scenes 1984, according to Barbara's timeline.)
Maybe the mailbox represents Ennis' subconscious desire to keep the lines of communication open with Jack. He's inviting Jack to "send him a postcard," so to speak, from beyond. Sorry, I am trying and trying and I can't figure out a way to phrase that so it doesn't sound kind of hokey. But my intention is serious. You know what I mean, right? He wants Jack to be with him.
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I think it has been said before that Ennis would no longer want to go to the PO so he got himself a mailbox at his trailer. he is proud of the job he did putting it up.
Ennis and Jack didn't express their feelings so much in words, written or otherwise.
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This discussion gives me a new idea about that final postcard. The fact that it's signed "Ennis del Mar" I've always taken as a funny in-joke about their first meeting. But another reason could be because it sounds more formal and less intimate than a simple "Ennis." Maybe he was afraid that would arouse suspicion.
The more I think about the mailbox and the 17, the more I think they are connections to Jack. And maybe that's also the reason he's living in a trailer like the one where they first met. (And furnishing it with fans and coffee pots.)
But another possibility for the mailbox, which has been suggested elsewhere, is that it shows he's becoming even more hermitlike now -- he's not even going to go into town for his mail. A practical question: Would the PO deliver as far out as his trailer? Aren't townies more likely to have door-to-door delivery and rural folks have to go into town? Or maybe it's just a sign of the times and the postal service upgrading.
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I just googled "rural free delivery," which was the mail service that rural people used until Emergency 911 service spread to rural areas (less than ten years ago, in a couple of the towns where I've lived) and even small country roads got street addresses. Apparently, rural mail delivery has been around since 1896. I don't know what its history is in Wyoming, but it was the norm in other parts of the country in the 70's. So that doesn't explain why Ennis wouldn't have gotten a mailbox until the 80's.
Post office boxes cost money, and rural mailboxes don't (except for buying the box in the first place, and replacing it when the neighbor's kids blow it up with leftover fireworks). I don't know if that could be part of it.
I guess as far as symbolism is concerned, the things that work best for me are that 1) the reunion (and the first postcard) was seventeen years ago (though Ennis wouldn't have had any control over what box number the post office assigned him), and 2) that the post office was the place where Ennis used to get his postcards from Jack, and it used to be a happy place, but after that last postcard... then the post office became the place where Ennis learned that Jack was dead. I'm not sure avoiding it necessarily implies avoiding people; after all, Ennis agrees to go to Alma Jr's wedding (and deal with both Alma and the memories of being 19 and in love) right after setting up the mailbox. But it might mean avoiding painful memories.
As for letters vs. postcards... maybe letters would have been more damning, in a way. I can see a nosy wife asking lots of questions about what's in a letter. With a postcard, it's all there; nothing seems to be hidden. What better place to hide than in the open?
(Also, in the short story, Ennis is far-sighted and doesn't enjoy reading, so a letter wouldn't be the same kind of pleasure it would be for other people.)
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And of course there’s this observation: “Brokeback Mountain consists of 17 letters”
:laugh: I love that one!
And, yes I've always thought it was sort of interesting that the numbers can be read as either regular "17" or 1+7 to equal 8. The mailbox and even the trailer (a move from the shack) do make this last bit of the movie seem like a new beginning of sorts. Either having a mailbox does make Ennis more of a hermit or it symbolizes the idea, at least, that he's keeping communications open with the outside world. I'm sure it must have something to do with Jack... because with the two of them some sort of connection or meaning about them as a duo is almost always the case.
:-\
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Okay, this is as far-fetched as all the others, but Ennis very carefully applies the one and then the seven, to indicate that he is one (all alone) seven days a week. ???
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And, yes I've always thought it was sort of interesting that the numbers can be read as either regular "17" or 1+7 to equal 8.
I'm going to beat you all at being far-fetched: I like to read the 17 as 1+7=8. Because the "8" sideways becomes the sign of infinity. So the 17 really is a riddle, even a riddle within a riddle. 17 equals infinity, and what else equals infinity? The solution is "Jack and Ennis forever".
No, I don't at all think this is what was intended in the film. It's the explanation I favour even so. :-* :)
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I have thought a lot about the 17 since an extended discussion on the DC forum about number symbolism, quite a while back. And most of it I was not enthusiastic about because discussions of symbolism so often go flying away from particular characters in a particular story. The only possible interest to me was, If Ennis was thinking about those two numbers as he put them up (whether or not he had had a choice in picking his address), what would they have meant to him?
And I don't think he was in school long enough, or was interested enough in written words, to count the letters in Brokeback Mountain, for example.
But what he was always aware of was time, how long tilll he could get free long enough to meet with up with Jack again, how long had it been since he had seen Jack. And that as he thought about their history together he had already counted up the years. And I think as Ennis was putting up those numbers, he was saying again to himself, Just like the seventeen years I was meeting Jack in the mountains! And I think the thought of that, the heft of all those years in spite of the brevity of each meeting, was a consolation to him.
I will include one other correspondence with the 17 which I am absolutely sure is PURE COINCIDENCE! Which I just came up with on my own. And I guess, shows how easy it can be to get numbers to perform tricks for you if you enjoy getting mystical about them. I am going to quote again the sentence from the story I cited in the thread, 'Annie Proulx, classic writer':
Years on years they worked their way through the high meadows and mountain drainages, horse-packing into the Big Horns, Medicine Bows, south end of the Gallatins, Absarokas, Granites, Owl Creeks, the Bridger-Teton Range, the Freezeouts and the Shirleys, Ferrises and the Rattlesnakes, Salt River Range, into the Wind Rivers over and again, the Sierra Madres, Gros Ventres, the Washakies, Laramies, but never returning to Brokeback.
To give a (to me, stunningly) concrete sense of the passage of time and of the epic dimension of their love, Annie lists 17 different mountain ranges and mountains in Wyoming, other than Brokeback Mountain itself, to which they never returned.
The 17 address is only in the movie, this list of names is only in the story. But though I highly doubt that she counted them, I think Annie would have wanted to come up with a list that was roughly proportionate to the number of years they met, and, along the lines of what I said in the other thread, convey in a single sentence what few other writers would have trusted themselves to get across in under a page or two.
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Could anyone conclude something was going on from just a few postcards a year? I’m not sure. I’m also not sure they would have much more to say (or want to say) in letters or even phone calls, for that matter. Because the only purpose is to arrange to see each other, “Fish should be jumping” says “Can’t wait to see you” just as well. Everything else could be said when they’re together.
On every viewing, it's seemed to me that Ennis' conviction that so many people "know" is a symptom of his insecurity and paranoia. Alma has known far longer than he thinks and by extension Monroe probably does too. But so many people think they can "tell" a person is gay based on stereotypes and since Ennis doesn't fit them -- and Jack has been in Riverton only once, I'd guess that there wouldn't be much speculation and what there was would die from a lack of visible "fuel."
In the case of the postcards, the text shown is pretty neutral; and why would people be peering through a window at his mail in the first place?
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why would people be peering through a window at his mail in the first place?
Well, the postal workers would be likely to read them (I know this because one of my best friends works for the P.O.). Even so, nobody's likely to think the messages are anything more than what they appear to be: correspondence between fishing buddies.
As for the 17, I like the far-fetched explanations!
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Greetings Open Forum Denizens!
Why didn't they send letters in envelopes? If they had they could have communicated with each other better. They could have written longer notes and with the cover of an envelope they could have told each other more private things without so much worry about other people seeing.
I thought one of the advantages of being a gay man was you did have to write a lot of flowery love letters. Ha Ha
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Wow Andrew! That's amazing about the 17 mountain ranges. You're right that it's probably just coincidence, but it's an awfully cool coincidence.
About people reading the postcards... Well people are nosy and it's a tiny town. Plus, Alma reads Jack's postcards, we know that. Jack and Ennis were clearly almost counting on the idea that people were going to be reading the postcards... thus the elaborate, long-lived stories about fishing trips.
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OT but, now that you mention it, I've kind of wondered why they didn't fish. I mean, they had all that time on their hands, what else do they have to do?? ::)
OK, you don't need to answer that. But really. They go horseback riding. They go hunting. They've got all the fishing tackle with them. Why not?
Maybe because if they did, Alma wouldn't have any evidence to throw at Ennis later.
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OT but, now that you mention it, I've kind of wondered why they didn't fish. I mean, they had all that time on their hands, what else do they have to do?? ::)
OK, you don't need to answer that. But really. They go horseback riding. They go hunting. They've got all the fishing tackle with them. Why not?
Maybe because if they did, Alma wouldn't have any evidence to throw at Ennis later.
I remember this question being debated somewhere before and I seem to recall the conclusions about why they don't fish are related to Ennis's little white lie to Alma about whether Jack was someone he used to "cowboy with" and Ennis fibs and says they were fishing buddies. I think the line of argument had something to do with the idea that Ennis wanted to keep everything about his actual relationship with Jack completely separate from anything having to do with Riverton. I think the discussion was about Ennis's specific desire to actively avoid fishing actually. I'm going to go see if I can find that thread...
:-\
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I think they fished some but they used Jack's equipment, cause it was better. When U fly fish with someone, you have to go a long ways away in order to keep your lines from getting tangled. And they wouldn't want to do that. ;D
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LOL.
OK. So here's the thread ("Why the Lie?) that contained this line of discussion before. I just bumped it.
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1995.90 (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1995.90)
:)
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Everyone's thoughts on the number 17 are fascinating me... so glad that this is being discussed! :) I have not come up with an explanation of my own, but other's thoughts are helping me begin to spin my wheels on this question. Thanks, Friends!
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Everyone's thoughts on the number 17 are fascinating me... so glad that this is being discussed! :) I have not come up with an explanation of my own, but other's thoughts are helping me begin to spin my wheels on this question. Thanks, Friends!
I don't know, how about there were say 22 traliers where Ennis lived and his was number 17.
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Mark, you just made a comment on the "fantasy scenes" thread that got me wondering. You said you think Ennis would have kept all of Jack's post cards (and that he should have tacked the very first one up in his closet, message-side out). I would like to think he did keep them, but I don't know ... I'm guessing he would find that too risky.
What does everyone else think?
???
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Mark, you just made a comment on the "fantasy scenes" thread that got me wondering. You said you think Ennis would have kept all of Jack's post cards (and that he should have tacked the very first one up in his closet, message-side out). I would like to think he did keep them, but I don't know ... I'm guessing he would find that too risky.
What does everyone else think?
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he may have found a safe hiding spot, glove compartment to his truck, small box with his tools, maybe his saddle had a pocket, hidden conpartment in tackle box, somewhere in the truck most likely.
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Much as i would have like him to, I don't think Ennis kept the postcards. Possibly, just possibly he kept the first one, but not the others. He was too careful, too "paranoid" - worried over the worst-case scenario of someone finding the cards and immediately "knowing" the meaning of him keeping them. I don't think he kept those cards any more than I believe he kept a photo of Jack. :-\
Though if he *did* keep them, there sure would be a satsifying and poetic sort of wry irony to him keeping them hidden in his fishing tackle box. it's not like that got used too much for other purposes, and it was after all intimately connected to his relationship with Jack.
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he probably never developed a sentimental side. Until the end.
:'( !
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No, he would not keep them there. “One night I got your creel case open...”
I don’t think he would have been able to find a safe place for them for the seven or so years he and Alma were together after the reunion. And I don’t know whether Ennis even would have kept them--Jack was the sentimental one, keeping the shirts, his toy horse-and-rider, the blue truck under the desk. Even though his mom “kept his room,” Jack could still have thrown those things out. Ennis didn’t grow up in just one place (as Jack apparently did), didn’t have even a place to keep anything important, so he probably never developed a sentimental side. Until the end.
I think Ennis was sentimental, remember how he held the first card he got from jack reading it over and over? If I were Ennis the one safe place I would hide them would be inside the seat of his trucks. In those day the seats were made from zig zag metal springs wraped in burlap just below the upper surface of the seat, leaving it mor or less hollow, unloke today where the seats are mostly foam. He could have rigged up a place were they were well held in on the seat bottom and if Alma or anyone used teh truck no one would ever know. These were the only things he ever had of Jack and I think he would have kept them.
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The better he hid them, the more suspicion they'd arouse if anybody found them. If he put them inside the truck seat, he'd worry about getting in an accident and having them discovered by the rescuers or something.
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The better he hid them, the more suspicion they'd arouse if anybody found them. If he put them inside the truck seat, he'd worry about getting in an accident and having them discovered by the rescuers or something.
I don't think anyone would look for them there, and if his truck was wrecked he would have a chance to retreve his things from it. Also I think he would have like the idea that they were with him wherever he went. I don 't think a place like this would cause him worry. Alma probably rarely if ever drove the truck on her own and no one else had access to it.
Having said that, I dont think it was a big issue keeping them from Alma. They were innocuous enough, were picture poscards and Ennis could have kept them anywhere in the open, desk, dresser, etc.. He had no reason to suspect Alma knew Jack was anything but a fishing buddy.
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Well, Ennis certainly knew that Alma knew about the postcards since she was the one to announce the arrival of the first one. And, both Ennis and Jack were aware that Alma (and others) would be reading the postcards. I think the only thing that would be "suspicious" would be a stock pile. In the story Ennis goes out and buys a new postcard with Brokeback on it to use in his shrine. He even makes the shopkeeper order one since it's not in stock. I like that detail because it's so deliberate. He is conscious that he's constructing a little shrine. It's almost as nice of an idea as the notion of keeping all the old ones for sentimental value.
:'(
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Well, Ennis certainly knew that Alma knew about the postcards since she was the one to announce the arrival of the first one. And, both Ennis and Jack were aware that Alma (and others) would be reading the postcards. I think the only thing that would be "suspicious" would be a stock pile. In the story Ennis goes out and buys a new postcard with Brokeback on it to use in his shrine. He even makes the shopkeeper order one since it's not in stock. I like that detail because it's so deliberate. He is conscious that he's constructing a little shrine. It's almost as nice of an idea as the notion of keeping all the old ones for sentimental value.
:'(
Before the shirts I think that stack of post postcards was Ennios's most prized possesion.
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I just had another postcard-related thought.
It just struck me how horribly, tragically impersonal it is to find out about a loved one's death by getting a postcard returned with the word "deceased" stamped across it. Not even handwriting to convey the message... a rubber stamp, used because it can send the same message over and over again...
:'( :'( :'(
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I just had another postcard-related thought.
It just struck me how horribly, tragically impersonal it is to find out about a loved one's death by getting a postcard returned with the word "deceased" stamped across it. Not even handwriting to convey the message... a rubber stamp, used because it can send the same message over and over again...
Yes, that would be terrible. I saw the movie with a friend who is a letter carrier. She insists the P.O. wouldn't do that -- just stamp it "deceased" and send it back. But I mentioned that in a post a long time ago and someone industriously looked it up somehow and found that it was common practice up until some certain time, which I believe was after 1983.
In any case, I think they would have just delivered the postcard to Lureen. So this is a bit of cinematic license. It's lucky for Ennis, though, because then he would never have found out. (Unless Lureen saw the Riverton postmark and took the initiative to track Ennis down, but that seems unlikely.)
Would he have shown up in November and waited in vain for Jack? Would he assume Jack had quit him? Would he call the house in Childress to find out what happened?
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It's lucky for Ennis, though, because then he would never have found out...
Would he have shown up in November and waited in vain for Jack? Would he assume Jack had quit him? Would he call the house in Childress to find out what happened?
Oh. :'( :'( :'( It hurts to even think about that... to imagine Ennis going to the post office every day, hoping for a postcard, and never getting another one, and not knowing why. Given that movie-Ennis had never called Childress before, and given how things were left after their last meeting -- and given that Ennis apparently dumps Cassie by simply not responding to her notes -- I would guess that Ennis would eventually decide that Jack had quit him. :'( :'( :'( Maybe not until Ennis had sent many more postcards, until November had come and gone. But, oh, ouch, that just hurts to think about. Jack dying is bad enough; Jack dying PLUS Ennis never finding the shirts, or hearing that Jack wanted his ashes spread on Brokeback Mountain because it was his favorite place? :'( :'( :'( At least the movie ends with Ennis knowing how much he was loved...
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Yes, thank God for the shirts. :-\
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I'll third that.
And Mel, as for the other part of your post, that's why I can't subscribe to the idea that Jack decided to quit Ennis after their last trip and that was that. I think he would have had to show up in November. And by then, maybe Ennis would have made some changes. Or Jack might have lost his resolve.
It's amazing how after all this time I keep grasping for any way I can think of to make the story a tiny bit less sad ...
:'(
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Yes, thank God for the shirts. :-\
Yes, of course, thank god for the shirts! But, it keeps occurring to me that in addition to the shirts (and the handful of other encouraging things that happen after Jack's death... like the "I swear", etc.) the hug we see at the end of the argument before the flashback is essential. If we didn't see that little touch of reconciliation at the end of that pretty harsh argument, I think the movie would take on a whole different level of sad. Thinking that the last contact that they had with each other involved only yelling at each other and then driving away mad, would be impossible to take.
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Yes, of course, thank god for the shirts! But, it keeps occurring to me that in addition to the shirts (and the handful of other encouraging things that happen after Jack's death... like the "I swear", etc.) the hug we see at the end of the argument before the flashback is essential. If we didn't see that little touch of reconciliation at the end of that pretty harsh argument, I think the movie would take on a whole different level of sad. Thinking that the last contact that they had with each other involved only yelling at each other and then driving away mad, would be impossible to take.
the book and the 2003 screenplay are without that so important embrace. thankyou Ang.
It's also important that we know without even seeing it that Jack would stay with Ennis as long taking as much time as he needed until Ennis was able to leave.
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If we didn't see that little touch of reconciliation at the end of that pretty harsh argument, I think the movie would take on a whole different level of sad. Thinking that the last contact that they had with each other involved only yelling at each other and then driving away mad, would be impossible to take.
Absolutely, and good point. Ennis' collapse and Jack's comforting is gut-wrenching, but without it I'd probably never be able to watch that scene at all. The other thing I cling to in that scene is Ennis' "I just can't stand it no more, Jack." It offers a shred of hope that Ennis will decide to change, and if nothing else reassures Jack that their situation is as torturous for Ennis as it is for him.
Toward the end of the final lake scene, as Jack and Ennis fiercely embrace, the full-screen version shows Jack’s feet. Tiny detail, I know, but seeing his feet against the ground, more of his legs against Ennis’s--it reinforces how tightly torqued together they are (sorry for the alliteration). It’s comforting to me.
Me too. Thanks, Barbara! That does help. Maybe we should start a thread of "shreds of hope" or "comforting moments" that help slightly lessen the pain.
On a different note, this is yet another situation when the full-screen version shows something the wide-screen doesn't (I can think of two others, and maybe there are more). Film buffs are always scoffing at full screens, aren't they? But in this case, at least, it seems better.
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It has been pointed out that 7+1=8, possibly signifying August, the eighth month, the month that the two men "lost twice". But it also occurred to me that 7-1=6, which could suggest the sixth month of June, the approximate time when the boys first met in 1963.
Am I just grabbing at straws?
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OMG! I keep finding these threads and begin reading and next thing I know, I am enlightened on a completely new aspect of the film! I love all of the theories about the number “17” or 1+7 or 1-7. I never even considered the number as an issue, as for the mailbox, I believe it was Mel who mentioned that it was the PO where Ennis received the bad news about Jack’s death. That has always been my interpretation. Going back to the PO would be painful for Ennis.
As for full-screen versus wide-screen debate … I am a film snob in that regard. I can’t buy a full-screen DVD because the composition of the entire shot is lost. However, my DVD player has a magnifier. So, when I want to check something out, I just use the magnifier and boom …. there it is!! ;D So, I feel I have the best of both worlds!
Someone else mentioned the postcards Jack sent Ennis and if Ennis would have kept them. It is interesting that I, too, wondered why Ennis did not hang up one of Jack’s postcards. But, honestly, I doubt he saved them. If someone found them, there would be the whole “why” issue. And with Ennis’ fear of being “outted,” I can’t imagine he would keep something that would pose those types of questions.
Anyway … great thread, Amanda!
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But it also occurred to me that 7-1=6, which could suggest the sixth month of June, the approximate time when the boys first met in 1963.
Am I just grabbing at straws?
Well, I'm not much of one for numeralogy, just because it gets awfully easy to make almost any point once you get going. But I've got to applaud any post that says that the boys met in June! ;D (That's been one of my little nit-picky things.)
And as for the postcards... I'm with the people who think that Ennis wouldn't have kept them, but Jack might have.
But that last card. Damn, that would have been hard to keep, and harder to throw away. (Even though Jack never touched it. :'( )
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I pulled this thread back up because I found the symbolic meanings of some of these numbers. I posted this on another board ... so this is what I said:
I have seen some posts on other forums regarding the number “17” on Ennis’ mailbox and what that might symbolize. First we see Ennis sticking on the “1” and then the “7”. I have done some perusing and I found these symbolic meanings for the numbers, “1” and “7”. I also looked up “8” since the “1” was put up first and then the “7” was added. Here is what I found … for what it’s worth!
One - clearly represents unity, primacy, the first, the best, the only, it has no divisors, no factors, no components, it is universal, whole and complete. One is independent of all other numbers, is the source of all other numbers.
Seven - is from a root word meaning to be complete or full.
Eight - is seven plus one, and is hence the start of a new order, the beginning of a new era. Eight thus represents regeneration and resurrection.
Interesting, huh?
I think that fits our guys pretty well. What do y'all think?
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Hey, Diane--
I do think the end sees a regeneration for Ennis, however difficult it might be to discern, especially upon an initial viewing. He is opening up to his daughter, to another, in a new way, and this is clearly due to the lessons he has learned from Jack. So 1+7=8(regeneration) makes sense to me from this angle.
As for resurrection, Jack's spirit lives on within Ennis's heart. He remains a vital force within the aging ranch hand's life, however materially circumscribed that life might be. So the resurrection theme makes sense from that perspective as well.
Thanks for the elucidation on the symbolic value of these numbers.
Scott
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These questions are popping up again so I'm going to resurect this topic.
Somebody told me there were two postcards in the movie, but I count four: The first one from Jack, the return card from Ennis to Jack, the "fish should be jumping" card, and the deceased one.
Did any of these by chance have a picture of Half Dome at Yosemite on them??
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I remember reading during my "lurking on IMDb days" that someone observed that 'Q' is the 17th letter of the alphabet = 'Queer'. Interesting.
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Did any of these by chance have a picture of Half Dome at Yosemite on them??
No, I think the first was Carlsbad Caverns. I satand corrected, El Capitan.
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These were my thoughts on the subject that I wrote on 'Photo Captions'.
Ennis thinking: Puttin' these here numbers on my mail box. 17 don't mean nuttin', just that Ah live in space number 17 in this here trailer park. Some folks get upset thinking everything has to mean somethin'.
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Lee,
Your friend was telling you that there are two photo postcards that circulated through the mails in the movie.
The first one from Jack, is a photo card and features a photo of El Capitan and Signal Peak (New Mexico and Texas) NOT Yosemite (which is in California)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l173/nltoast/Postcard1a.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l173/nltoast/Postcard1b.jpg)
Possible source of confusion: There is another peak called El Capitan which is in Yosemite, and it can be photographed with the Yosemite Half Dome. Link (http://www.earthboundlight.com/portfolio1.html?mode=text&inum=1234) But this is not the El Capitan from the postcard.
the return card from Ennis to Jack, is NOT a photo card.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l173/nltoast/Postcard2a.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l173/nltoast/Postcard2b.jpg)
the "fish should be jumping" card, This pastoral scene does not seem to have any "Half Dome" rock formation on it.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l173/nltoast/Postcard3a.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l173/nltoast/Postcard3b.jpg)
and the deceased one is NOT a photo card - we are looking at the "photo" side (the address is on the reverse side)
This card is like the other one we see Ennis sending to Jack.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l173/nltoast/Postcard4.jpg)
By the way the Brokeback Mountain postcard was not from Yosemite either.
That card was not mailed and was purchased at Higgins' store in Riverton, south of Brokeback Mountain.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l173/nltoast/Canola.jpg)
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Look how clean Ennis's fingernails are when he reads Jack's first card, and how dirty they are for the deceased postcard.
Toast, you are one of my favorite visuologists here. :)
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Also, that last postcard reminds us that November 7th is Pine Creek Day, one of the High Holy Days of our calendar. Is that right, Meryl? :)
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Thank you Clarissa.
Visuologist - I like that.
I was going to take all the numerals in the photos, add them up, subtract the number of cards, add the number of postmarks, divide by the smallest numeral and then look up the answer in google. But then I realized that I am not a numerologist.
I'll settle on visuologist.
Cool.
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What is curious about the handwriting on the postcards is that the actual handwriting, which seems a bit too ornate to be authentic for two ranch hand types. I did notice the misspelling of "Genral" on the 1967 postcard. But look at the capital letters "F" and the curly-styled capital "C." Also, the capital "T" which varies a bit on Ennis' postcard to Jack and the capital "H" in how the fish were jumping. I would almost expect printing more than writing.
I immediately recognized the style in the cursive Ennis uses as Eastern Scholastic, circa early 1970s, which refers to the educational materials distributed to schools mostly on the east coast of the United States. I say that because that was precisely the same cursive style I was taught myself. Large loopy cursive, with few breaks was the classic form this script was taught. My handwriting and Ennis' is actually remarkably similar, and I find that surprising, because a lot of guys resisted the Eastern Scholastic style because it was considered more feminine, and a lot of my classmates developed handwriting which greatly reduced the bubbly-large and loopy stylings of this cursive into something more confined, closer to Jack's handwriting. In fact, I was one of the few guys in my class who kept to the style. My signature is loop city. I almost wonder if those postcards were actually written by a female crew member because the overwhelming majority of people who stayed true to the original styling are women.
The "Jack" handwriting is definitely more masculine. I doubt either actor actually wrote the cards themselves.
Also interesting is the actual worsening of Ennis' grammar as the years ostensibly pass. He can no longer be bothered with capitalizing place names and months at the end.
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Very interesting observations, Phillip and Toast. Unfortunately I cannot see the photos as Photobucket is blocked on my work computer. I will look forward to analyzing them when I get home tonite.
You might find the book "Postcards" by Annie Proulx interesting because each chapter begins with an illustration of a postcard sent by or to one of the characters in the book.
As far as Yosemite goes, I'm looking forward to finding the Yosemite reference so I can lay it to rest, and then I don't want the word Yosemite mentioned to me again for a good long time!! This from a person who once curated an exhibition of archived Yosemite photography for the park's 100th anniversary!!
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What I find interesting is that Ennis has a stub of an envelope with Texas written on it (presumably his note for the complete address) and then he writes Texas on the reply card to Jack.
The Texas on the card and on the envelope stub seem to be written by two completely different people.
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What I find interesting is that Ennis has a stub of an envelope with Texas written on it (presumably his note for the complete address) and then he writes Texas on the reply card to Jack.
The Texas on the card and on the envelope stub seem to be written by two completely different people.
But the 'You bet' is the same writing.
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These were my thoughts on the subject that I wrote on 'Photo Captions'.
Ennis thinking: Puttin' these here numbers on my mail box. 17 don't mean nuttin', just that Ah live in space number 17 in this here trailer park. Some folks get upset thinking everything has to mean somethin'.
LOL! Mark, tell Ennis just to pay us no mind, we are just looking for a way to take our minds off our troubles!!
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I have a question (that leads to several more) that I feel is almost worth it's own thread... The main question is who stamped that postcard "DECEASED"? Was it the post office? Could it possibly have been Lureen? If Lureen was still living at the same address wouldn't that postcard have been delivered to her like normal? Had Jack really been dead long enough for the post office to stop delivering his mail like normal (especially since his wife would be their to receive it anyway)? Clearly, there must be a return address on that postcard... since somehow the postcard made its way back to Ennis. If the postcard had arrived at the Twist house, then Lureen would definitely know both Ennis's name and address. Making her story on the phone sound a bit more fishy.
This question actually came up in a fanfic story I was reading (some of you how read fic might recognize this issue), but I thought it was compelling enough to warrant serious discussion with regard to the actual movie.
cheers
Amanda
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l173/nltoast/Postcard4.jpg)
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As far as Yosemite goes, I'm looking forward to finding the Yosemite reference so I can lay it to rest
I just searched my pdf file of the short story for you, and the word "Yosemite" doesn't appear.
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I have a question (that leads to several more) that I feel is almost worth it's own thread... The main question is who stamped that postcard "DECEASED"? Was it the post office? Could it possibly have been Lureen? If Lureen was still living at the same address wouldn't that postcard have been delivered to her like normal? Had Jack really been dead long enough for the post office to stop delivering his mail like normal (especially since his wife would be their to receive it anyway)? Clearly, there must be a return address on that postcard... since somehow the postcard made its way back to Ennis. If the postcard had arrived at the Twist house, then Lureen would definitely know both Ennis's name and address. Making her story on the phone sound a bit more fishy.
This question actually came up in a fanfic story I was reading (some of you how read fic might recognize this issue), but I thought it was compelling enough to warrant serious discussion with regard to the actual movie.
cheers
Amanda
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l173/nltoast/Postcard4.jpg)
I have just come from the post office in Huntsville, AL where I asked the guy behind the counter about this. He says that the family can keep receiving the deceased's mail if they're at the same address, or forward it to another family member (like executor or power-of-attorney), or they can request that it be returned with the 'DECEASED' stamp. He did not know the policy in 1983, but I wouldn't think it would change much.
This leads me to speculate that Lureen had to go out of her way to take a death certificate to the PO and fill out a form, etc. so that postcard would get back to Ennis in the coldest way possible. Maybe it's a measure of the distance between Lureen and Jack near the end of his life - they could do it over the phone, all business. One more detail for her to check off of her list.
Who else would Jack have received mail from besides his mother and Ennis? I'm guessing the household bills and all were in her name seeing as she had the adding machine.
Poor Jack.
:'(
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- This was posted on that thread by meryl: “[in Chinese symbology] the number 8 represents Rebirth. There are other symbols of new life in that scene as well: Alma, Jr.’s impending marriage, Ennis’s newly awakened sense of the importance of making sacrifices for loved ones, and the view of the young green crops seen from the window in the last shot.”
I think I have to go with this one, about the # 17 I mean.
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Hi Lynne,
Thanks for doing the research. I still think it's an interesting and somewhat mysterious issue.
Hey, so now I have yet another question. What's the significance of different advertisements on the paper behind the deceased postcard? I wonder if this newspaper/ circular is almost a "bookend" to the newspaper that Alma uses to cover up one of Jack's earlier camping-trip-invitation postcards.
:o The one Alma uses to hide Jack's postcard is the classic that's advertising milk and honey.
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I am guessing in this instance it's a dramatic tool to coldly inform Ennis of Jack's passing by the filmmaker, with the presumption this would be a normal procedure (it's been used in other movies and TV shows). Most mail carriers still deliver mail for those no longer with us, or if they lived alone, it gets returned as undeliverable. We are unfortunately still dealing with this in our own family as my father is closing charge accounts opened in my mom's name (they all want a copy of the death certificate -and- mail a confirmation letter in her name at her address because a third party is closing the account). And he still gets junk mail in her name as well.
I don't sense Lureen would be -that- cold as to wash Jack right out of her scary hair, but since a lot of us think of her as one of the things which keeps Jack and Ennis apart, it's probably easy for us to assign negative intent to her. I've noticed Alma gets far more sympathy than Lureen does in a lot of discussions about the women. I wonder if that is part of the stereotyping of strong, take charge women as cold, while Alma clearly looks more like a victim.
One wonders how Ennis would share the news of Jack's passing with Alma.....
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I've noticed Alma gets far more sympathy than Lureen does in a lot of discussions about the women. I wonder if that is part of the stereotyping of strong, take charge women as cold, while Alma clearly looks more like a victim.
I, for one, am more sympathetic to Lureen. I don't blame Lureen for their marriage becoming something they could do over the phone. I think she gets unfairly accused of being cold and heartless toward Jack. I see her as a well-intentioned, loving and ultimately frustrated wife caught in a bad situation she doesn't fully understand. Besides, she does a kindly deed at the end, suggesting Ennis get in touch with Jack's folks.
I guess Alma is just as innocent a victim of circumstances, but she gets on my nerves more.
One wonders how Ennis would share the news of Jack's passing with Alma.....
I'm betting he'd never mention it.
Re the No. 17: There's a theory I saw on imdb that connects the mailbox number to Lureen's performance in the rodeo. It's been a while since I've seen the movie and I never noticed this line particularly, so I'm going on what I remember of the imdb post, but apparently we hear the announcer saying that Lureen's score is 16.9, and that she has come in second to a competitor from Wyoming.
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Cory Wills (props): Ang, what numbers should Heath put on the mailbox?
Ang: Doesn't matter, just make it between about 8 and 20 or 25, we want to give the audience a feel for the size of the trailer park. If we have to shoot the scene over we can just give him different numbers.
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It's not that I'm wholly unsympathetic toward Lureen - I'm a career-oriented female myself. But she lost big points with me twice - first when she let the customer/cowboys refer to Jack as a 'pissant' and remained silent, imo, for the sake of her bottom line. Second during the 'blue parka' scene, it becomes clear that Jack has been the parent primarily involved with Bobby at school, and she shrugs off getting Bobby a tutor. In the short story, she controls the purse-strings, so he can't pursue it on his own, as I recall.
Like everyone, she's not all bad - she's pleased when Jack stands up for himself at Thanksgiving and like Katherine says, it's generous and kind of her to suggest Ennis get in touch with the Twists.
I guess Alma is just as innocent a victim of circumstances, but she gets on my nerves more.
For me, I think Alma getting on my nerves is because of the era. She knows her husband is gay and allows herself to be a victim. I guess that still happens today, but the modern female in me screams 'Move on, already.'
Re the No. 17: There's a theory I saw on imdb that connects the mailbox number to Lureen's performance in the rodeo. It's been a while since I've seen the movie and I never noticed this line particularly, so I'm going on what I remember of the imdb post, but apparently we hear the announcer saying that Lureen's score is 16.9, and that she has come in second to a competitor from Wyoming.
I hadn't heard that one - it's a good one...so many different ways to find meaning here. :)
Like Eric said, this one's my favorite from Meryl:
[in Chinese symbology] the number 8 represents Rebirth. There are other symbols of new life in that scene as well: Alma, Jr.’s impending marriage, Ennis’s newly awakened sense of the importance of making sacrifices for loved ones, and the view of the young green crops seen from the window in the last shot.”
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The shorter time wins in barrel racing. For Lureen: “...the time is 16 and 9.” For Cheyenne: “...her time is 17 and 2.”
Oh! (blushing icon) That makes sense. Well, maybe I didn't understand, or misquoted, the explanation in the first place. I wasn't familiar with the announcer's line.
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Cory Wills (props): Ang, what numbers should Heath put on the mailbox?
Ang: Doesn't matter, just make it between about 8 and 20 or 25, we want to give the audience a feel for the size of the trailer park. If we have to shoot the scene over we can just give him different numbers.
Mark, is this a real quote from somewhere, or a pretend thing?
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Mark, is this a real quote from somewhere, or a pretend thing?
No, it's just my take on this scene. Any number chosen someone would come up with a hidden meaning. 36 <> 63 the year Jack and Ennis met, 12 1 2 respective number of children an on and on.
My mom a college english treacher once attended a interview with a famous author. In one of here stories in order to set the scene she described a spider crawling up the wall. The reader had dozens of questions about the meaning of the spider. She replied 'Its just a spider crawling up the wal!'.
Mark
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Well, walking home from work today... for some reason I was thinking about Ennis and that mailbox (who knows why really ::) ). And I just kept thinking... just the simple fact that he gets a mailbox at all is a big deal. Lee makes us look at him dealing with that mundane ol' mailbox for quite a long camera time. Why? Why of all things are we meant to look at a mailbox for so long? Not only that, but Ennis walks away from it turns, and looks at it himself (thus re-enforcing the idea that the movie-viewer is supposed to find something important/ interesting regarding that mailbox). If the protagonist focuses on it, the viewer is more than likely going to follow his actions (it's almost an automatic response from a viewer... especially this late in the film after we've been conditioned to identify with Ennis for the bulk of the story).
So, the only thing I can think that's super significant (and, Mark, you'll be happy to know this doesn't have to do with the possible symbolism of no. 17, etc.) but it's just the plain fact that Ennis has changed. Through the whole film- the previous 20 years of Ennis's life or the entirety of his relationship with Jack he hasn't had a mailbox. The fact that he did something different is a sign of some sort of evolution in his character.
Does this make sense?
I guess we could debate the point of whether Ennis had a mailbox at any of his other previous residences (we're not always shown this particular detail all that carefully)... but I think we're meant to believe that in all the times past he's collected his mail through p.o. boxes at the post office.
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OT but, now that you mention it, I've kind of wondered why they didn't fish. I mean, they had all that time on their hands, what else do they have to do?? ::)
OK, you don't need to answer that. But really. They go horseback riding. They go hunting. They've got all the fishing tackle with them. Why not?
Maybe because if they did, Alma wouldn't have any evidence to throw at Ennis later.
I also wondered the same thing. Why didn't they fish if they did everything else? I guess it wasn't something they really liked to do. After all, Ennis comes with the "he was a fishing buddy" lie on the spur of the moment, when he receives Jack's first postcard.
As for the postcards writing, I think they didn't write long letters because, unlike women, men in general don't do that. At least I've never met any man who would write a long, detailed letter, unless they're at war.
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Through the whole film- the previous 20 years of Ennis's life or the entirety of his relationship with Jack he hasn't had a mailbox. The fact that he did something different is a sign of some sort of evolution in his character.
But evolution in what direction? Is it a sign that he has become more open to communicating with others? Or less, because it means he can avoid trips into town? My feeling has always been that it's an implicit invitation to Jack -- he's hoping for "postcards," so to speak. Perhaps he's belatedly open to Jack's communication. The fact that he carefully adjusts and examines the letters the same way he does in the "tent don't look right" scene underscores that interpretation, for me.
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I also wondered the same thing. Why didn't they fish if they did everything else? I guess it wasn't something they really liked to do. After all, Ennis comes with the "he was a fishing buddy" lie on the spur of the moment, when he receives Jack's first postcard.
who says they didn't fish? We see Ennis exiting his truck with all of his gear, and I'm sure fish would have supplemented their meals on the campouts.
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who says they didn't fish? We see Ennis exiting his truck with all of his gear, and I'm sure fish would have supplemented their meals on the campouts.
Alma did. From the short story:
"You know," she said, and from her tone he knew something was coming, "I used to wonder how come you never brought any trouts home. Always said you caught plenty. So one time I got your creel case open the night before you went on one a your little trips -price tag still on it after five years- and I tied a note on the end of the line. It said, hello Ennis, bring home some fish, love, Alma. And then you came back and said you'd caught a bunch a browns and ate them up. Remember? I looked in the case when I got a chance and there was my note still tied there and that line hadn't touch water in its life."
The above passage is also in the movie, when Alma confronts Ennis on Thanksgiving.
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Alma did. From the short story:
"You know," she said, and from her tone he knew something was coming, "I used to wonder how come you never brought any trouts home. Always said you caught plenty. So one time I got your creel case open the night before you went on one a your little trips -price tag still on it after five years- and I tied a note on the end of the line. It said, hello Ennis, bring home some fish, love, Alma. And then you came back and said you'd caught a bunch a browns and ate them up. Remember? I looked in the case when I got a chance and there was my note still tied there and that line hadn't touch water in its life."
The above passage is also in the movie, when Alma confronts Ennis on Thanksgiving.
there was no need for the case if the fish were immediately prepaired for a meal and how can you tell if a line was ever in the water?
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there was no need for the case if the fish were immediately prepaired for a meal and how can you tell if a line was ever in the water?
I can't answer that question Mark. Sorry. I can only tell you what Proulx wrote. It seems like they never actually fished. Not while herding the sheep nor afterwards.
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there was no need for the case if the fish were immediately prepaired for a meal and how can you tell if a line was ever in the water?
I don't know about the line, but Alma would have been able to tell if the paper on which she'd written her note had been underwater.
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I don't know about the line, but Alma would have been able to tell if the paper on which she'd written her note had been underwater.
But there wouldn't be any reason for the case to be underwater if the fish went from the hook to the frying pan. I still say they fished on many of trips if nothing else for same meals and the fish were right there in the stream, Ennis and jack just didn't go to fish.
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I don't know about the line, but Alma would have been able to tell if the paper on which she'd written her note had been underwater.
I would think the note wouldn't even have been there when Alma looked in the creel after Ennis came home. Ennis would have taken the note off the line before he actually used it to fish.
Presumably they could have kept the fish on a line in the water after they caught them, until they were ready to cook them.
I'm sure they did some fishing all those years. You have to take a break some times. ;) ;D
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As for the postcards writing, I think they didn't write long letters because, unlike women, men in general don't do that. At least I've never met any man who would write a long, detailed letter, unless they're at war.
I agree. The cool thing about being a gay man is not having to wtite a buch of sappy love letters. Haha.
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But evolution in what direction? Is it a sign that he has become more open to communicating with others? Or less, because it means he can avoid trips into town? My feeling has always been that it's an implicit invitation to Jack -- he's hoping for "postcards," so to speak. Perhaps he's belatedly open to Jack's communication. The fact that he carefully adjusts and examines the letters the same way he does in the "tent don't look right" scene underscores that interpretation, for me.
Well, yes, this is probably the key question. How has Ennis evolved? It's interesting that you note this step (getting a mailbox) can be read simultaneously as a social (accepting correspondence directly with other people... and openly acknowledging communications from other people are arriving on his doorstep) and an anti-social step (his ability to avoid town and trips to the post office). I agree with you that Ennis getting a mail box feels like a positive step (that's just the sense I get from it), but yes. It's too late to receive the mail he really wants. I think that anything indicating Ennis is breaking out of old patterns is a good thing. But, it goes without saying that all of this is ambiguous.
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You know I am getting more and more confused about the mailbox the more I watch. The whole last part of the film Ennis seems to be in real depression and despair. From the last scene at the lake, to Cassie at the bus station, then of course the phone call and lightening flats.
In fact I have been rewatching Lightning Flats and if possible it seems that Ennis is even more distraught and in a greater state of grief as he left then I even originally thought. In fact I think that is why Mrs. Twist does put her hand to her throat, not because of Mr. Twist but because in looking into Ennis's eyes after he finds the shirts she now understands everything between Jack and Ennis, and she feels Ennis's true grief and she is feeling the pain of his pain.
Anyway that is why I am now even more confused about the mailbox. Ennis seems to be out of that deep depression, with the care and the focus of getting the numbers just right, and he is now able to hug Alma Jr. (which he never did before) and even joke with her a little. Of course his true feelings still show when she talks about Kurt. But I cannot figure it out.
Has he recovered and decided to really move on with life?
(Another question, why does he now have a fancy knife set, when before he could barely even eat? I have been wondering about this.)
Or is he now living in some sort of fantasy life with the shirts and the mailbox waiting for Jack like the book Ennis dreams constantly of Jack, and so has he found some peace with his fantasies and dreams?
I would like to think that he has somehow decided to live, but I tend to not think that is the case.
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I think Ennis was sad not depressed, huge difference.
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I think Ennis was sad not depressed, huge difference.
Yes there is a big difference but to me the lake scene and especially the bus station, it just looked liked real depression to me.
By then Ennis seemed to be incapable of living, like he was going through the motions, especially at the bus station.
I mean he wasn't even at the bar, because there were people at the bar, and he couldn't eat.
IMO those were signs of depression, but then again just MHO.
(Although I do agree that Lightening flats was grief and sadness)
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Wow! There are some really excellent points being made here. I *love* the dual interpretation of Ennis affixing the numbers to the mailbox - that's brilliant, and like Amanda points out, ambiguous, probably intentionally. I see dual interpretations and ambiguity pretty much everywhere I look, though. And I change my mind, depending on how I'm feeling when I watch.
I tend to think Ennis found some measure of peace at the end. To me, the shrine of the postcard, the bloody shirts (reversed!), and 'I swear' combine to tell me that Ennis has come to terms with who he is and with what he and Jack meant to each other. His willingness to skip the roundup and attend Junior's wedding supports this - Ennis has come to understand what it is to love. He can directly relate to what a wedding symbolizes (He had no clue when he himself was 19.). Further, he appreciates what it means that Junior is able to celebrate her love openly - an experience he and Jack were not destined to have.
Keeping the shrine in the closet (movie) alludes to gay people having to hide their identity (obviously), but people also keep their most precious possessions hidden in safe places. Keeping a treasured memory private gives it a power that may dissipate when it's shared with the world. Again - a dual interpretation.
I feel the same way about the open window...there's the obvious door shutting/window opening interpretation. When we see the wind across the field, we think of Jack. Ennis is still in the trailer, but at least he is looking out that window. Regret? Certainly. Future? Possibly.
Obviously there's a great deal of sadness throughout Ennis' whole life - he tried not to be a 'sad daddy' with his daughters. But somehow I don't see depression at the end, in the way we usually think of depression. There's certainly some apathy with respect to his physical comfort: 'Don't have nothing, don't need nothing.' But is it really apathy? or contentment in a minimalist sense? He's lost what was most precious to him, so everything else necessarily pales in comparison.
In fact I think that is why Mrs. Twist does put her hand to her throat, not because of Mr. Twist but because in looking into Ennis's eyes after he finds the shirts she now understands everything between Jack and Ennis, and she feels Ennis's true grief and she is feeling the pain of his pain.
I completely agree that Jack's mother understands the depth of Ennis' grief in Lightning Flat. To me, her hand on her throat is a physical manifestation of this understanding - that the depth of her (and Ennis') pain cannot be articulated. Ennis only manages a respectful nod and a mumbled 'Thank you for this', indicating the shirts. But his eyes convey his gratitude more than any words could ever manage. Alternate interpretation: living with OMT has caused her to gauge her words carefully. Hell, there's a kitchen scale on the counter - they live a measured existence! Mrs. Twist may want to contradict her husband about the ashes but doesn't dare.
(Another question, why does he now have a fancy knife set, when before he could barely even eat? I have been wondering about this.)
I've thought and thought and I have no idea what the knives mean. At least they're real knives instead of electric ones! Perhaps we're meant to remember Jack's confrontation with L.D. - a tribute to Jack finding his voice and standing up to his father-in-law vs. Monroe's milquetoast reaction to confrontation in his home. Is there a possibility that Ennis may find his own voice?
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In fact I have been rewatching Lightning Flats and if possible it seems that Ennis is even more distraught and in a greater state of grief as he left then I even originally thought. In fact I think that is why Mrs. Twist does put her hand to her throat, not because of Mr. Twist but because in looking into Ennis's eyes after he finds the shirts she now understands everything between Jack and Ennis, and she feels Ennis's true grief and she is feeling the pain of his pain.
This is a great observation, or way to interpret this gesture by Mrs. Twist. I've never heard it described that way before. But, you're right... her reaction probably is partially based on what she now has confirmed about Ennis and the pain she sees in his eyes, etc. But, I think her reaction is simultaneously in response to Mr. Twist's denial of Jack's final wish. I think both things are tearing at Mrs. Twist.
And, I certainly don't think it would be improbable for Ennis to be experiencing a kind of depression towards the end of the film.
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As for the postcards writing, I think they didn't write long letters because, unlike women, men in general don't do that. At least I've never met any man who would write a long, detailed letter, unless they're at war.
:)
I think this is often true, but not always the case. When one of my closest friends irritated me with a whole series of events which threatened the friendship, I sat down and composed at least a five page letter putting my feelings and arguments down on paper. I already have a tendency to produce incredibly long messages anyway, so for me, five pages isn't out of line. And I have done that with other people as well, usually as a last resort when talking doesn't work. My friends immediately recognize "the Phil talk" or "the Phil letter" as being a clear warning sign there is a lecture or more or less final warning coming their way about something which they ignore at their peril. It's not a common practice with my male friends, and a lot of straight ones have even dumped "you're worse than my girlfriend" on me after getting one.
Sometimes, a heartfelt well-composed letter can cut through the noise and be better understood than side comments or a phone call. But I could imagine Jack and Ennis doing nothing of the sort. Well, I could imagine Jack -possibly- doing it at some point. As I've mentioned before, I'm sure Ma Bell was very upset over the fact neither let their fingers to the walking and picked up the phone and talked to one another. Rates are lower after 9pm! Dramatic effect for the filmmakers I'm sure, although one could believe Ennis didn't have a phone at times, and considering Jack had trouble tracking Ennis down after the divorce, that could partially explain it.
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Twenty, 25, and 30 years ago I used to be a great writer of long letters--and that was back in the days when it was still done by hand, with a pen, on real paper! :o ;D :laugh:
Now I just wonder how the heck I had the time. ... :-\
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Twenty, 25, and 30 years ago I used to be a great writer of long letters--and that was back in the days when it was still done by hand, with a pen, on real paper! :o ;D :laugh:
Now I just wonder how the heck I had the time. ... :-\
No e-mail. E-mail (and other electronic communication) has replaced letters for me.
(You lovely people are the recipients of all those letters I should be sending to my high school friends. Aren't you all lucky. ;D )
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No e-mail. E-mail (and other electronic communication) has replaced letters for me.
Me, too. My handwriting is shot from years of taking notes, and I can't compose anything without deleting and adding and cutting and pasting. So if I were to write a letter I would do it on the computer anyway. And if I've gone that far, why spend 39 cents and wait two days for it to get there, when I can send it for free in two seconds and maybe even get a response by the end of the day?
The only personal mail I send these days are birthday, thank-you and sympathy cards.
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:)
I think this is often true, but not always the case. When one of my closest friends irritated me with a whole series of events which threatened the friendship, I sat down and composed at least a five page letter putting my feelings and arguments down on paper. I already have a tendency to produce incredibly long messages anyway, so for me, five pages isn't out of line. And I have done that with other people as well, usually as a last resort when talking doesn't work. My friends immediately recognize "the Phil talk" or "the Phil letter" as being a clear warning sign there is a lecture or more or less final warning coming their way about something which they ignore at their peril. It's not a common practice with my male friends, and a lot of straight ones have even dumped "you're worse than my girlfriend" on me after getting one.
Sometimes, a heartfelt well-composed letter can cut through the noise and be better understood than side comments or a phone call. But I could imagine Jack and Ennis doing nothing of the sort. Well, I could imagine Jack -possibly- doing it at some point. As I've mentioned before, I'm sure Ma Bell was very upset over the fact neither let their fingers to the walking and picked up the phone and talked to one another. Rates are lower after 9pm! Dramatic effect for the filmmakers I'm sure, although one could believe Ennis didn't have a phone at times, and considering Jack had trouble tracking Ennis down after the divorce, that could partially explain it.
I wish all the boyfriends I had had throughout my life were like you Phillip. The longest letter I received was from one of them who lived away from me but it wasn't exactly a letter since he draw everything he wanted to tell me. He's a professional cartoonist. It was cool though, but it wasn't an actual letter but some sort of a personal long comic strip.
As for Ennis and Jack, I don't see them writing long letters to each other. Remember, they were "both high school dropouts, country boys, both rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life." And Ennis in particular didn't make it to be a sophomore and "was farsighted enough to dislike reading anything except Hamley's saddle catalog." That description IMO doesn't fit a person who would write long letters. In fact, that's part of their tragedy, that they never spoke (out loud or in writing) about their feelings not even about the sex, until later in their lives when Jack couldn't take it anymore, and it was too late by then.
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Remember, they were "both high school dropouts, country boys, both rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life." And Ennis in particular didn't make it to be a sophomore and "was farsighted enough to dislike reading anything except Hamley's saddle catalog."
Ironically, in the movie, Ennis is the better speller.
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Ironically, in the movie, Ennis is the better speller.
Which actually makes me feel even sorrier for Jack -- Lureen's got a college degree, and Jack can't spell "you're" correctly. Probably yet another way that Jack felt alone down there.
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I wish all the boyfriends I had had throughout my life were like you Phillip. The longest letter I received was from one of them who lived away from me but it wasn't exactly a letter since he draw everything he wanted to tell me. He's a professional cartoonist. It was cool though, but it wasn't an actual letter but some sort of a personal long comic strip.
He made at least an effort, which is better than many. One of the reasons John and I have kept going after 20 years is that we -do- communicate openly and honestly about feelings. There are a lot of guys out there who simply refuse to do this out of some fear they'll lose the argument or that they've never spent time focusing on what exactly they are feeling. It's too bad, because opening up was one of the most rewarding things I've ever done.
It's always amazing to me when I contrast Jack and Ennis' 20 year "relationship" with my own, and I think one of the things that upsets me about it is my feelings which alternate between anger over how pointless it was to not just take a chance together and sadness over the realization that when you don't have resources or friends that you can be open with who can encourage and support you, and allay your fears, it's not surprising things turned out the way they did.
John and I are living proof that two guys can be together and lead boring, mundane, suburban (or rural for that matter) lives, and nobody cares. ;D
I spend a lot of time interacting with people living in more rural areas around here - western rural New York is still a Republican bastion of the state, although more like the old Rockefeller Republican party than today's conservative Christian base. Yet even in these areas, I notice people have trended towards accepting people based on who they are more than what they are. Nobody wants someone else's "lifestyle" thrust in their face (and they're just as irritated with swinging heterosexuals as they are with the concept of a couple of gay guys flying pride flags and putting pink flamingoes all over the yard next door), but if you treat your neighbors with open respect, friendship, and politeness, people come to accept you accordingly. The days of the mobs with torches are over, and even in states like Wyoming, those that killed Matthew Shepherd were not the average Wyoming resident by any means.
People who know me accept me as me as they get to know me. I don't introduce myself as "Gay Phil." I'm Phillip and people learn more about me if/when they ask questions, and I answer them openly and honestly. The fact I am so confident about answering a question without embarrassment or wavering seems to be easier for people to deal with than if you try and shield your answers.
And ultimately, most people just don't care. Ennis wondering if people "knew" or suspected presumed a lot more than the reality that most folks are first and foremost concerned about their own lives and issues, and most people don't have the time or interest to speculate about others.
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Whoa, letters cost 39 cents now to mail? ;)
Phil, pink flamingoes, really?
I think the beginning of the short story tells us how Ennis is doing by the end of the movie: He is suffused with pleasure when he thinks and dreams of Jack, and he has learned how to husband those images to last all day. So while I agree with depression at the bus station, I think a combination of the self-acceptance we see growing, and the catharsis of his experience at the Twists has given Ennis a way to have peace of mind. And as I said somewhere (maybe this thread) ::) to me he looks downright perky (for Ennis) as he is standing there gazing with satisfaction at the numbers he has just put on his mailbox. And he sounds downright hearty when greeting Junior. Maybe it's denial on my part, not wanting this to be a tragedy absolutely through and through, but I think Ennis has found his way to live with a sense of contentment.
But I'm one of those who actually doesn't think the interior of the trailer looks that bleak, by Ennis standards.
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And he sounds downright hearty when greeting Junior.
Sure he does, for Ennis. He's genuinely happy to see his daughter. Ennis is a taciturn individual. People like him, even when they're happy, their responses are often pretty low-key.
Maybe it's denial on my part, not wanting this to be a tragedy absolutely through and through, but I think Ennis has found his way to live with a sense of contentment.
I think he has, too.
But I'm one of those who actually doesn't think the interior of the trailer looks that bleak, by Ennis standards.
Tell you what, there's a part of me that admires Ennis's minimalist aesthetic. Sometimes I look around my home and I feel that I'm drowning in stuff. ::) :-\
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Tell you what, there's a part of me that admires Ennis's minimalist aesthetic. Sometimes I look around my home and I feel that I'm drowning is stuff. ::) :-\
Me too. And "if you don't got nothin, you don't need nothin" is a pretty sound philosophy.
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Actually I agree. I see Ennis in a state of clinical depression at the bus station. He is totally withdrawn from people, he is not in the bar like previously because to me he doesn't want to be near anybody. Another sign of depression his playing with the apple pie, not eating it. Loss of appetite is another sign of real depression.
Then when Cassie comes over he doesn't even look at her at first and barely speaks. Yes, I am sure he does want to avoid her but still the way he talks to her fits in with severe depression.
In fact I would have thought his breakdown at the lake with Jack should have been somehow cathartic to him, but obviously it wasn't. In fact I think that at lake when they were drinking at smoking he was already depresseds. The way he talked and acted even before the breakdown.
In fact I really wonder what happened between Ennis crying in Jacks arms and his driving away. Whatever else happened to me it all put him in a state of severe depression at the bus station. To me that is one of the saddest scenes, to see what happened to beautiful Ennis, how he became so pitiful. (IMO)
Anyway, I do agree that he does seem almost perky putting up the numbers on the mailbox. Also although he does get sad with Alma Jr. he does no longer seem in the real depression . To me either he somehow he has begun to heal and somehow move on in life.
Or the other possibility is that he is further removed from reality and living just for the memories, like in the book and the mailbox number are a further indication of his loss of reality, they are for Jack.
I'd would like to think he is healing, maybe going to the wedding could be a sign of that.
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I'd would like to think he is healing, maybe going to the wedding could be a sign of that.
Or if not precisely "healing," then at least that he's changed.
Somewhere a long time ago on another thread somewhere, I wrote that after puzzling for a long time over the purpose of the scene with Ennis and Junior in his truck after the outing with Cassie--where Junior asks to come live with her daddy and Ennis says no--I came to conclude that the purpose of that scene was to set up a contrast with the finale, to show that as a result of the shock of Jack's death, and finding the shirts, Ennis has changed.
In the truck, Ennis isn't "there" for his daughter when she needs him. In the final scene at his trailer, at first he isn't "there" for her, either. Initially, when she asks him to come to her wedding, he says that he can't do it, he's got to go on round-up--the usual excuse for Ennis. But then something happens. He changes his mind. He agrees to come to the wedding. He is now being "there" for someone who loves him and needs him.
Just my POV. ...
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But I'm one of those who actually doesn't think the interior of the trailer looks that bleak, by Ennis standards.
I concur, Clarissa. I think Ennis was quite comfortable in that trailer, being the man of simple tastes and minimal needs that he was. And I do see hope as well in the ending--not only the mailbox and the sincerely warm greeting for his daughter (not to mention his all-important decision to attend her wedding), but even the little detail of the television set facing the bed signifies an enduring connection to the larger world, an opportunity to break out of his grief and loneliness.
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And if I've gone that far, why spend 39 cents and wait two days for it to get there, when I can send it for free in two seconds and maybe even get a response by the end of the day?
I'm really bad myself, as so many are today, in sending old-fashioned pen-on-paper letters (and was even before the advent of email).
But I think there's still something to recommend in this practice, even with the ease and cheapness that electronic communications afford. For one thing, it gives one the opportunity to practice penmanship, and elegant handwriting can be a beautiful and rewarding ends in itself. It can feel like a gift to the recipient, to convey to them that care was taken in the delivery of the message. Furthermore, the letter is something that was actually held by the writer, and will be held by the recipient--there is a sense of physical contact being made, and not only the mental and/or emotional one conveyed by the letter's contents. Imagine how this sense of "He touched this" might have invested each of Ennis and Jack's postcards to one another with added tenderness.
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Imagine how this sense of "He touched this" might have invested each of Ennis and Jack's postcards to one another with added tenderness.
Nicely put, Scott.
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Ya got me right in my little communicator's heart! :'(
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And I do see hope as well in the ending.
I always have, too, though in a way I'm sure others would disagree with or find controversial. Whatever it is that we see through the trailer window, waving in the wind, just prairie grass or some kind of growing grain, it's green. It's alive. It's growing.
If the filmmakers had wanted to convey despair, they could just as easily have had something yellowed, dried-up, and dead visible through that window. But they don't. We see something alive.
And it's something waving in the wind. This might be the point for some comment about "Jack is the wind," or whatever, but I've never followed that thread of thought, so I'll stop here. :)
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Whatever it is that we see through the trailer window, waving in the wind, just prairie grass or some kind of growing grain, it's green. It's alive. It's growing.
If the filmmakers had wanted to convey despair, they could just as easily have had something yellowed, dried-up, and dead visible through that window. But they don't. We see something alive.
I understand what you're saying Jeff, but I think it's ambiguous. After all, the green grass is outside of the window.
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To me, it looks like green corn. Any Midwesterners have a thought on that?
Maybe I'm just obsessing on corn mazes...
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I understand what you're saying Jeff, but I think it's ambiguous. After all, the green grass is outside of the window.
Oh, for heaven's sake, Katherine, where do you want it to be? Growing in Ennis's living room? :laugh:
I figured you'd be the one to disagree, Little Darlin'. ;D
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To me, it looks like green corn. Any Midwesterners have a thought on that?
Maybe I'm just obsessing on corn mazes...
Do they grow corn--maize--in Wyoming? ???
Looks a little too "flowing" in its waving for cornstalks, to me, but I could be wrong.
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Oh, for heaven's sake, Katherine, where do you want it to be? Growing in Ennis's living room? :laugh:
I figured you'd be the one to disagree, Little Darlin'. ;D
Surely you're not implying that I'm ... argumentative ?!! :laugh:
Well, I'm just sayin, I think the fact that the grass (or corn, or soybeans, or whatever the heck it is) that looks all green and healthy and natural and alive is outside the window, while Ennis himself is closed up inside -- considering the outside/inside distinction and the looking-through-windows symbolism that run throughout the film -- is significant. If the last shot were of Ennis outdoors in nature, it would have a different effect.
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Surely you're not implying that I'm ... argumentative ?!! :laugh:
Well, I'm just sayin, I think the fact that the grass (or corn, or soybeans, or whatever the heck it is) that looks all green and healthy and natural and alive is outside the window, while Ennis himself is closed up inside -- considering the outside/inside distinction and the looking-through-windows symbolism that run throughout the film -- is significant. If the last shot were of Ennis outdoors in nature, it would have a different effect.
Yes, and did you notice the placement of the different elements, Jeff and Katherine: the brown dirt is on the bottom, the green corn (or whatever) in the middle, and the blue sky on top--on top, Jeff! Why do you think the director had the location manager arrange them that way?? :laugh:
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Yes, and did you notice the placement of the different elements, Jeff and Katherine: the brown dirt is on the bottom, the green corn (or whatever) in the middle, and the blue sky on top--on top, Jeff! Why do you think the director had the location manager arrange them that way?? :laugh:
Ang Lee is talented and powerful, but even he can't turn the world upside down. I think. ... ;D
But do they grow maize in Wyoming?
I think whatever it is, it's too tall for soybeans. ;D
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But do they grow maize in Wyoming?
I think whatever it is, it's too tall for soybeans. ;D
I believe that they grow wheat (and grass for hay) in the high plains (like Wyoming) -- there's a line around 100 W longitude where it gets awfully dry for growing corn. (Though I know that corn is a stable of the traditional diet of various Southwest Indian tribes. From what I've seen of places like Mesa Verde, though, the corn was grown in small, highly irrigated fields. I think.)
Ranching (lots of land + grazing animals, especially cows) is more common than farming (crops, with smaller economically viable plots of land) in eastern Wyoming. I think.
The green stuff outside Ennis's window looks like a hay field to me.
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I believe that they grow wheat (and grass for hay) in the high plains (like Wyoming) -- there's a line around 100 W longitude where it gets awfully dry for growing corn. (Though I know that corn is a stable of the traditional diet of various Southwest Indian tribes. From what I've seen of places like Mesa Verde, though, the corn was grown in small, highly irrigated fields. I think.)
Ranching (lots of land + grazing animals, especially cows) is more common than farming (crops, with smaller economically viable plots of land) in eastern Wyoming. I think.
The green stuff outside Ennis's window looks like a hay field to me.
Now that you mention it, Mel, I have this vague memory from American History that west of the Hundredth Meridian was once considered "The Great American Desert," that is, you couldn't farm west of that line? Does that sound familiar?
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Now that you mention it, Mel, I have this vague memory from American History that west of the Hundredth Meridian was once considered "The Great American Desert," that is, you couldn't farm west of that line? Does that sound familiar?
*digs out copy of Cadillac Desert* Yes, that's right. Rainfall east of the Hundredth Meridian is generally more than 20 inches per year, and west of the Hundredth Meridian (until you cross the Sierras or the Cascades) it is generally less. In the arid parts of the West, the Homestead Act's 160 acre allotments were generally too dry to farm and too small to graze ("...in Utah, Wyoming, and Montana - to pick three of the colder and drier states - there was not a single quarter section on which a farmer could subsist, even with luck, without irrigation, because an unirrigated quarter section was enough land for about five cows.")
I can't find a reference to the types of crops that can be grown at different levels of rainfall. There is some corn grown out here, but I think it's grown in smaller, irrigated areas, and it's grown for people to eat. It's not like Iowa, where it rains and you can grow thousands of acres of feed corn.
I bet Annie Proulx's Red Desert book will talk about some of this history, too.
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Yes, and did you notice the placement of the different elements, Jeff and Katherine: the brown dirt is on the bottom, the green corn (or whatever) in the middle, and the blue sky on top--on top, Jeff! Why do you think the director had the location manager arrange them that way?? :laugh:
It feels good to laugh (lovingly) at ourselves. :) Thanks, Lee.
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I watched again last night and I was thinking how truly pathetic Ennis looked inside the trailer at the end. Here was a person who was meant for big, wide, open spaces, like the times he looked most at peace with himself was outside with the horses and the woods and mountains.
So then at the end he was in the cramped, claustrophobic trailer, with the small window of his true world far off in the distance.
And I was thinking was the trailer meant to be the prison that his life had become, with the window showing the world that he no longer had or could have.?
Or was the window with the outdoors meant to represent hope for him, and the world that he was to return to?
Unfortunatly I tend to think that the trailer was his prison, and the world of meadows, forests and streams and elks and bears becoming more and more unobtainable to him and everyone.
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Unfortunatly I tend to think that the trailer was his prison, and the world of meadows, forests and streams and elks and bears becoming more and more unobtainable to him and everyone.
Hmmm. But he's in a trailer by himself, with a view of open spaces around him. Yes, he's in the part of Wyoming where people live rather than high up in the mountains, but people are only visitors in the National Forest land anyway -- that's part of why it's appealing, I think, and part of why his relationship with Jack was able to flourish up there - because it wasn't part of his ordinary world.
Do you know what a true trailer-prison would look like to me? Looking out the window and seeing another trailer, and another, and another. (I'm picturing the post-Hurricane Katrina trailer parks shown in Spike Lee's documentary When the Levees Broke, but I'm also picturing every trailer park I've ever seen.) Or a trailer park in small-town sprawl, with a gigantic Wal-mart parking lot in place of the field. THAT would be hell. No Jack, no nature, and still bone-crushing poverty.
Ennis is just in purgatory.
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So true!!
It could be worse for Ennis if he didn't have the open space beyond the window.
Although it is so sad and scary that some want to do away with the protections for the land even the parks and forests, so that open space may not be there for long.
And yes, to me anything having to do with Wmart is true hell, I won't set foot in those places.
So I do agree, it could have been worse for Ennis, but still he does look out of place in the traier.
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Do you know what a true trailer-prison would look like to me? Looking out the window and seeing another trailer, and another, and another. (I'm picturing the post-Hurricane Katrina trailer parks shown in Spike Lee's documentary When the Levees Broke, but I'm also picturing every trailer park I've ever seen.) Or a trailer park in small-town sprawl, with a gigantic Wal-mart parking lot in place of the field. THAT would be hell. No Jack, no nature, and still bone-crushing poverty.
Ennis is just in purgatory.
A lot of guys in Wyoming live like this now. Because of the energy boom, there are huge mancamps where men live in trailers or concrete barracks and work 12- or 18-hr days. When they do get time off, there is nothing to do but carouse or watch TV. There was an article about this in the Feb. 5 New Yorker...I realize that I am telling you what you already know better than me...but it bears repeating in light of the mailbox and the No. 17. I doubt if many of those roughnecks have a reason to put up a mailbox. How many people are living with only the memory of experiencing love, maybe not even with that??
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*digs out copy of Cadillac Desert*
I bet Annie Proulx's Red Desert book will talk about some of this history, too.
I'll have to watch for Annie's book. Thanks for the little history refresher, Mel. Been a long time since I last read anything about the Homestead Act ("Uncle Sam is rich enough to give us all a farm!" ;D ).
A lot of guys in Wyoming live like this now. Because of the energy boom, there are huge mancamps where men live in trailers or concrete barracks and work 12- or 18-hr days. When they do get time off, there is nothing to do but carouse or watch TV. There was an article about this in the Feb. 5 New Yorker.
I remember reading that in the article. Sounded like a pretty dreadful way to have to live. Like, well, a prison. :(
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it is a different way to live versus what many may be used to, but like anything that is different, it need not be considered inferior.
the living situations for work -related 'tours of duty' are actually, in many ways, fulfilling. years ago, we did 6 months in Baku to work the oil business, several weeks off, then back. the on-location conditions made working an easy focus, productive, and work/non work was nicely integrated. This was similar to the period of constructing the Alaska pipeline.
Ennis was perfectly comfortable in such a situation. "don't have nothin'...don't need nothin'..." His heart was full of core values and love for his man, his children, and his memories.
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Lynn posted an excerpt from the book in her forum today. Looks like it will be published soon!
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Lynn posted an excerpt from the book in her forum today. Looks like it will be published soon!
I think this is the link Lee's referencing:
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,9.msg153790.html#msg153790
Thanks, Lee!
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Well, I'm just sayin, I think the fact that the grass (or corn, or soybeans, or whatever the heck it is) that looks all green and healthy and natural and alive is outside the window, while Ennis himself is closed up inside -- considering the outside/inside distinction and the looking-through-windows symbolism that run throughout the film -- is significant. If the last shot were of Ennis outdoors in nature, it would have a different effect.
"Looking-through-windows symbolism"? Lord, that's another thread I think I'm glad I missed. ;) ;D
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Ennis is just in purgatory.
And Ennis is still a working ranch hand by story's end...the trailer is basically just where he rests up between his work stints, which always take place out of doors. The round-up in which he decides not to participate in order to attend Junior's wedding would take place in the Tetons...just the kind of high country in which he found love with Jack. So Ennis would be exposed to Brokeback-reminiscent landscapes for the foreseeable future.
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"Looking-through-windows symbolism"? Lord, that's another thread I think I'm glad I missed. ;) ;D
I don't think there's a single thread devoted to it, but it's been mentioned on quite a few threads. Notice how often Ennis is looking through a window or off into nature when thinking of or talking about Jack.
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Notice how often Ennis is looking through a window or off into nature when thinking of or talking about Jack.
Thanks, but I don't think I want to. I'm sorry if I'm offensive, but for me, personally, this excess of symbolism is just starting to seem a little ridiculous. (Of course, some of it has always seemed a bit de trops to me.) Maybe I'm just moving into a new "phase." :-\
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Thanks, but I don't think I want to. I'm sorry if I'm offensive, but for me, personally, this excess of symbolism is just starting to seem a little ridiculous. (Of course, some of it has always seemed a bit de trops to me.) Maybe I'm just moving into a new "phase." :-\
That's okay Jeff. It just leaves more for us to talk about!
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That's okay Jeff. It just leaves more for us to talk about!
;D
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Oh one other thing along that line: I've been invited to go over to the DC site where they have a symbolism forum and contribute. So, it's nice to go visit with the symbolism junkies when the smoke in the just a cigar bar gets really thick around here.
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it's nice to go visit with the symbolism junkies when the smoke in the just a cigar bar gets really thick around here.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
F-R, I'd be interested in hearing what all they're talking about over there in terms of symbolism. I'm curious if their ideas completely overlap ours, or if they have different ones, or what. Please report back! :)
Meanwhile, the DC gang will be lucky to partake in the wisdom of as skilled a symbolismologist as yourself!
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F-R, I'd be interested in hearing what all they're talking about over there in terms of symbolism. I'm curious if their ideas completely overlap ours, or if they have different ones, or what. Please report back! :)
Oh, my goodness, what if they don't even recognize buckets, eagles, and looking through windows!?! :o
Be careful over there! :D
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To continue symbolism
I havn't read that much about it, but I did notice the window thing with Ennis right away and wondered about that. Especially in the scenes where it is a minor detail, not like the major window scenes.
Like when he comes home to Alma and the crying babies, and as soon as he comes in and washes his hands he glances out the window, way before the reunion.
Was he looking for Jack already?
Also at Thanksgiving, before Alma lashes out, he looks out the window. What for?
But it was snowing, so maybe he was just looking out at the snow.
I love the symbolism stuff, and well maybe some of it is a little excess, but so what?
It is fun, but I do wonder about it all, how much was really intentional?
I suppose it really doesn't matter, but it is all there.
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I searched on coffeepot over on DC and I was disappointed to find no insights similar to ours, only many references to Ennis's quote during the lake scene.
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I love the symbolism stuff, and well maybe some of it is a little excess, but so what?
It is fun, but I do wonder about it all, how much was really intentional?
I suppose it really doesn't matter, but it is all there.
Hi Marlb! Well, some of us sure do think it's all or at least mostly there and all or at least mostly intentional. Not only that, but I'd go so far as to say there's more there that we haven't yet uncovered or talked about. The symbolism in BBM is complex and subtle, but if you suspend judgement and are open to looking closely, it becomes so clear you'll know it couldn't be accidental. Not everybody is interested in doing that, which is fine -- it's not like you can't enjoy the movie without it (obviously! :)). But for those of us who do, it enriches our experience of the movie immeasurably.
If you're interested, here are a couple of excellent threads about symbolism:
This one, initiated by Front-Ranger, is called "On buckets, eagles, impatience, and ..."
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.0.html (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.0.html)
Here's one called "Black hats, white hats," started by ednbarby:
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1266.0.html (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1266.0.html)
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Thanks Katherine,
I will read those the whole threads when I have the time.
I think it is true that some are still to be dixovered or at least talked about.
It is amazing now that I watched it so many times, how many new things I see, now that I can focus more on it and less on the words.
Like it just hit me yesterday, the lamp next to Ennis when he was waiting for Jack during the reunion sequence, how much it looks like the buckets.
And I do wonder about the kniife set in the trailer, and the fan on the bed. Okay that one may be a little obvious, but it had to be intentional.
And the headlights, and you know what, this may sound really over the top, but did you notice at times the sheep sound like crying children?
Yes, I am serious, they do ;D ;D ;D
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I noticed this last night, and I know that some of you are going to think I went off the deep end, but I am serious. I did see this.
During the shot of the sheep between TS1 and TS2, almost all of the sheep are moving towards the right.
But in the middle of the screen, are two tallish sheep that are just standing there, not moving, pointed to the left.
Many of the sheep were computer generated, weren't they? So I would think it did not just happen, but was intentional.
I mean the symbolism is perfect, two sheep going against the masses and society, towards the left!
I know it sounds silly but it is there. :D
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Interesting, marlb! Say did you see the poster for the Dutch play of Brokeback Mountain which shows a lamb being carried by a shirtless man? The Dutch seem to share your viewpoint that the sheep make for a powerful symbol. I don't think we have a sheep thread yet. Why don't you start one? I would be interested in reading it!
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I saw the poster, real interesting and I liked it a lot.
I really do believe that the sheep are real important. Next time I watch, I will take note of all the interesting sheep details and post them.
I am glad you sort of agree.
This is serious :D
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I really do believe that the sheep are real important.
Proulx was very deliberate in making Ennis and Jack sheepherders and not cowboys (i.e., men who are working with cattle). The sheep are important, though some of their import remains mysterious (they have been neglected to a large degree in our various analyses). It might be of interest that most of 1967, when Jack and Ennis reunited, was the lunar Year of the Sheep according to Chinese astrology. Also, both men very possibly were born in 1943 ("not yet twenty" when they first meet in 1963), and most of that year was likewise the Chinese Year of the Sheep.
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I can second that, Scott. I heard Annie say in person, "If I had wanted them to be cowboys, I wouldn't have put them to work herding sheep." This was at a literary conference in Casper, Wyoming.
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Well, some of you know I have a complex theory about the sheep and their symbolism relative to both Jack and Ennis and the whole idea of "sacrificial lambs." I think sheep function in very specific ways (at least in the movie... a lot of their importance I think comes from visual cues that we don't experience in the written text of the story). I'll briefly summarize... The only visions of bloody violence that we're shown in the film are the gory death of the sheep after TS1 and the brutal image of Earl's mutilated body and then later Ennis's vision of what Jack's death might have been like. To me the sheep that Ennis sees after losing his virginity upon first-viewing of the film seems like an overdetermined symbol of loss of virginity, but after we know about the Earl story the mutilated sheep in hindsight seems much more like an ominous warning (from Ennis's perspective). The dead sheep may activate some of his old fears. Jack frequently seems to be juxtaposed with lambs and sheep (I'm thinking particularly of the moment where he's holding a lamb across his lap and tending to something in its hoof... and then also right after Ennis sees the dead sheep there's a quick cut to Jack naked by the stream). My theory is that sheep come to symbolize Jack (and gay men more generally) and Ennis's sense of duty to protecting the sheep becomes very, very important. He won't shoot the sheep for food and he's adament that they're responsible for guarding the sheep. He takes this very seriously. The sheep might not function in the same way from Jack's perspective because he does not have the Earl scenario as part of his world-view. It's not a part of his worries in the same way that it is for Ennis.
I also have a complex theory about the identity of Jack and Ennis as cowboys (in the film... again, some of this is visual and not communicated in Annie's actual text). Ennis is shown to be a cowboy in the film. We see him working with cows and he talks about the heifers calving. He's literally a cowboy during much of his life in Riverton. Jack loses any true claim to being a cowboy (either through ranch work or through rodeoing) by the time the Reunion happens. Being a cowboy becomes nostalgic and part of Jack's fantasy as early as the "prayer of thanks" camping trip. He proposes the "cow and calf operation" as part of his ideal scenario of living with Ennis. But Ennis already works for a cow and calf operation... we know this because of the grocery scene. The cow and calf operation is grunt work and part of Ennis's daily experience. Jack maintains an image of a cowboy through his hats and the clothes that he wears. And we know he maintainis the cowboy idea as an ideal and probably had since childhood. I think this is one reason why the little cowboy toy in his childhood room is so poignant when Ennis finds it. He'd been dreaming of cowboys since he was very young.
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I was reading Adam's prop book for the movie today, and it does call for the numbers 1 and 7 to be used in the mailbox scene. What's more, the prop book says that Ennis throws the other numbers into the big garbage can outside his trailer door when he's finished. That, to me, is also very significant!!
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Lee, here's what the 2003 and 2004 screenplays/shooting script says about the number of the mailbox, and the garbage - just as in the prop book:
167 EXT: RIVERTON, WYOMING: DEL MAR TRAILER HOUSE: AFTERNOON: 1984: 167
The wind, as ever, blows.
ENNIS'S modest little trailer house, his battered pickup parked in front.
A new mailbox on the trailer house just to the right of the front door. ENNIS has a set of stick-on numbers in his hand. Peels the One off and precisely applies it, then the Seven: Seventeen. Steps back, admires his work. Walks around the side of the trailer to the driveway. Undoes a bungee cord on a dirty metal garbage can, throws the remaining numbers into the trash. Looks up.
Did you notice if the prop book identifies the small bag on the bed inside the trailer?
Does it call it a manbag? saddlebag? or Juniors bag?
Curious minds would like to know Lee.
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Proulx was very deliberate in making Ennis and Jack sheepherders and not cowboys (i.e., men who are working with cattle). The sheep are important, though some of their import remains mysterious (they have been neglected to a large degree in our various analyses). It might be of interest that most of 1967, when Jack and Ennis reunited, was the lunar Year of the Sheep according to Chinese astrology. Also, both men very possibly were born in 1943 ("not yet twenty" when they first meet in 1963), and most of that year was likewise the Chinese Year of the Sheep.
I read somewhere, I believe it was on "Getting it movied", that Proulx deliberately made them sheepherders because cowboys tend to hate working with sheep. I think Proulx wanted to depict the image of the cowboy as some kind of ideal Ennis and Jack hoped to become, but never came to pass. This is especially true for Jack. He becomes a bullrider as a part of his dream of becoming someone big and important. Jack wanted to be as good as his father was and also to become a "real" cowboy.
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This is especially true for Jack. He becomes a bullrider as a part of his dream of becoming someone big and important. Jack wanted to be as good as his father was and also to become a "real" cowboy.
Tell you what, the last time I watched the film and listened to Jack tell Ennis how his father was once a well-known bullrider but had never shared any of his secrets with Jack or gone to see Jack ride, I had a strange, counter-intuitive thought the old man's behavior. I've pretty much always assumed that one reason why Jack had chosen his father's rodeo event--aside from the fact that he couldn't afford a roping horse--was to try to make it right between himself and his father. But what if the old man never shared his secrets or watched Jack ride because he didn't want to encourage his only child from participating in such a dangerous sport?
I say that's counter-intuitive because it almost seems more "caring" of the old man than we see otherwise, but I guess I was remembering that there were some things where my father didn't want me to follow in his footsteps, and I'm an only child, too, like Jack.
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Tell you what, the last time I watched the film and listened to Jack tell Ennis how his father was once a well-known bullrider but had never shared any of his secrets with Jack or gone to see Jack ride, I had a strange, counter-intuitive thought the old man's behavior. I've pretty much always assumed that one reason why Jack had chosen his father's rodeo event--aside from the fact that he couldn't afford a roping horse--was to try to make it right between himself and his father. But what if the old man never shared his secrets or watched Jack ride because he didn't want to encourage his only child from participating in such a dangerous sport?
I say that's counter-intuitive because it almost seems more "caring" of the old man than we see otherwise, but I guess I was remembering that there were some things where my father didn't want me to follow in his footsteps, and I'm an only child, too, like Jack.
Interesting idea, Jeff. It's plausible, but I don't know if I'd go that far, because I've always felt that Jack's complaint is intended to show conflict and distance between him and his father. To me, reading it as a subtle message about his father's concern would violate Occam's Razor. BUT I do think the old man is more caring than people tend to give him credit for. In the Twist ranch scene, I think OMT is genuinely grieving, not just bitterly trying to cause more trouble.
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Tell you what, the last time I watched the film and listened to Jack tell Ennis how his father was once a well-known bullrider but had never shared any of his secrets with Jack or gone to see Jack ride, I had a strange, counter-intuitive thought the old man's behavior. I've pretty much always assumed that one reason why Jack had chosen his father's rodeo event--aside from the fact that he couldn't afford a roping horse--was to try to make it right between himself and his father. But what if the old man never shared his secrets or watched Jack ride because he didn't want to encourage his only child from participating in such a dangerous sport?
I say that's counter-intuitive because it almost seems more "caring" of the old man than we see otherwise, but I guess I was remembering that there were some things where my father didn't want me to follow in his footsteps, and I'm an only child, too, like Jack.
Hey Jeff. I agree with you. It hadn't ocurred to me Jack somehow wanted to get approval from his Dad. It actually makes sense.
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To me, reading it as a subtle message about his father's concern would violate Occam's Razor.
It would that! ;D
But whatever the reason for the behavior, surely not sharing his secrets and never showing up to watch Jack compete amounts to not encouraging Jack in the endeavor.
And I wish I could understand why I'm suddenly so fascinated wondering why the old man didn't support Jack in his rodeo aspirations. ;D
Was he already so convinced in his own mind that his son was such a fuck-up that he didn't even try to support Jack in his rodeo aspirations? It would have made for a different story, I know, but perhaps if he had shared his secrets with Jack, and shown Jack some encouragment, maybe Jack would have had a more successful rodeo career. Was the old man, consciously or not, setting Jack up to fail by his own lack of support for his son? ??? :-\
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And I wish I could understand why I'm suddenly so fascinated wondering why the old man didn't support Jack in his rodeo aspirations. ;D
Maybe you've got rodeo aspirations of your own! ;D
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Maybe you've got rodeo aspirations of your own! ;D
Not bloody likely. ... ;D
BUT I do think the old man is more caring than people tend to give him credit for. In the Twist ranch scene, I think OMT is genuinely grieving, not just bitterly trying to cause more trouble.
It fascinates me that you see him--and that scene--this way. While I don't think his "troublemaking" is just gratuitous, in that scene with Ennis I've never been able to see anything in John Twist's demeanor except bitterness and deep contempt--contempt for his own son, emphasized by that business of spitting into his cup. :-\
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And I wish I could understand why I'm suddenly so fascinated wondering why the old man didn't support Jack in his rodeo aspirations. ;D
Well, it's a good topic Jeff! And one that probably hasn't been tackled as much as some others. It is interesting to ponder why John, Sr. doesn't want his son following in his footsteps (in this one aspect).
Yeah, it could be that he wanted to protect Jack from the dangers of the sport. Or, it could be one more manifestation of what the audience is encouraged to think is abuse or neglect on the part of John, Sr. Since we don't get the full story about the extent of the father's abuse in the movie like we do in the story, the clues about the relative awfulness of John, Sr. are more subtle. Maybe the father's decision not to train Jack in bull riding and his further decision not to see Jack ride is meant to show the type of disdain that neglectful/ abusive parents show their kids for totally inexplicable reasons. My interpretation of how Jack perceives his father's actions is that Jack does take this as a form of neglect or rejection (I base this mostly on the way Jack tells the story and the face he makes... so this is super subjective).
What ever happened to that old thread about putting kids on the "woolies" that showed pictures of fathers putting tiny kids on sheep for rodeo training? I remember those pictures were really effective in showing how scary that could be to a little kid.
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My interpretation of how Jack perceives his father's actions is that Jack does take this as a form of neglect or rejection (I base this mostly on the way Jack tells the story and the face he makes... so this is super subjective).
I would agree with that, Amanda. Goes hand-in-hand with "Can't please my old man no-how," even when he tries to follow in his old man's footsteps. :-\
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Did you notice if the prop book identifies the small bag on the bed inside the trailer?
Does it call it a manbag? saddlebag? or Juniors bag?
Curious minds would like to know Lee.
I specifically looked for that, Toast. But there was no mention of it. EDelMar told me that if the actors did not touch it, it is considered set decoration and is not included in the prop book. However, I had the chance to see that mysterious object on the large screen when I was in Bay City. IMHO, it was a mistake that it was included in the scene. The object is a richly tooled portfolio cover, and is unlike something that either Alma Jr or Ennis would have possessed. Just my opinion.
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Thanks Lee
I'm inclined to agree that neither Ennis nor Junior would posess such a finely tooled portfolio.
But it's interesting that it's in the scene from two different angles, and moved slightly between scenes.
Thanks again Lee and EDelMar.
I see tht yu had a great time in Michigan.
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It fascinates me that you see him--and that scene--this way. While I don't think his "troublemaking" is just gratuitous, in that scene with Ennis I've never been able to see anything in John Twist's demeanor except bitterness and deep contempt--contempt for his own son, emphasized by that business of spitting into his cup. :-\
Yes, I've always thought he looked sad sitting at the table. And the way some people deal with grief is to lash out bitterly and contemptuously -- especially, I'm sure, people who are bitter and contemptuous by nature in the first place.
I've heard a theory that I find semi-convincing, that John Twist is not only grief stricken but that the reason that he denies Ennis the ashes is because he doesn't feel Ennis "deserves" them. Because Ennis rejected Jack's offer and let Jack down, OMT feels he shouldn't get family member status and respect, and is unworthy of scattering the ashes.
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Very thought-provoking, Katherine!
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Yes, I've always thought he looked sad sitting at the table. And the way some people deal with grief is to lash out bitterly and contemptuously -- especially, I'm sure, people who are bitter and contemptuous by nature in the first place.
Good point about some people dealing with grief by lashing out in bitterness at others. I've seen that in RL--by the sister of a late friend, with whom I've been unhappily yoked for two years as co-excutors of my friend's estate. :-\
I've heard a theory that I find semi-convincing, that John Twist is not only grief stricken but that the reason that he denies Ennis the ashes is because he doesn't feel Ennis "deserves" them. Because Ennis rejected Jack's offer and let Jack down, OMT feels he shouldn't get family member status and respect, and is unworthy of scattering the ashes.
That is an interesting theory. I'm sure I've said elsewhere that I see the denial of the ashes not as an action against Ennis but as the old man's final act of control over the son he deemed a failure and a disappointment.
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That is an interesting theory. I'm sure I've said elsewhere that I see the denial of the ashes not as an action against Ennis but as the old man's final act of control over the son he deemed a failure and a disappointment.
Yes, I agree it is interesting, but concur with those, like Katherine, who deem it "semi-convincing" at most, in part because Mr. Twist makes no mention of his scattering the ashes, per Jack's request. He states emphatically to Ennis that there is a family plot, "and he's goin in it". So the issue of control, as you, Jeff, remark on, seems paramount here.
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Mr. Twist makes no mention of his scattering the ashes, per Jack's request. He states emphatically to Ennis that there is a family plot, "and he's goin in it". So the issue of control, as you, Jeff, remark on, seems paramount here.
Good point, Scott. His decision doesn't just punish Ennis, it posthumously punishes Jack, as well.
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I've heard a theory that I find semi-convincing, that John Twist is not only grief stricken but that the reason that he denies Ennis the ashes is because he doesn't feel Ennis "deserves" them. Because Ennis rejected Jack's offer and let Jack down, OMT feels he shouldn't get family member status and respect, and is unworthy of scattering the ashes.
On further reflection, I think the trouble I have with finding this theory even "semi-convincing" is that:
a) If by Ennis rejecting Jack's offer you mean the "proposal" that he and Ennis ranch up together, I don't think we have any evidence to know that John Twist knew that Jack had made that offer to Ennis; and
b) While we know that Jack talked to his father about bringing Ennis up to Lightning Flat, I don't think we have any direct evidence that Jack ever asked Ennis to go up to Lightning Flat with him.
We have to be careful not to confuse what we, from our position of omniscience ;D , know about the characters, and what they say and do, with what the characters know of each other's statements and actions.
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a) If by Ennis rejecting Jack's offer you mean the "proposal" that he and Ennis ranch up together, I don't think we have any evidence to know that John Twist knew that Jack had made that offer to Ennis
I think Mr. Twist could probably surmise that if Jack always talked about bringing Ennis up to the ranch, and then Ennis shows up to collect the ashes, that Ennis was not ignorant of Jack's desire that they live together. And in any case, he knows that Jack evidently for years held hopes that Ennis would do it, then suddenly switched to talking about another fella -- suggesting that Jack's hopes had fallen through.
b) While we know that Jack talked to his father about bringing Ennis up to Lightning Flat, I don't think we have any direct evidence that Jack ever asked Ennis to go up to Lightning Flat with him.
But we do know that Jack asked Ennis to ranch up. He may not have mentioned LF specifically, but I don't think it's necessary for him to have done so in order for OMT to realize that Ennis let Jack down. Even if Jack never mentioned LF and therefore OMT is wrongly assuming that he had, that wouldn't affect the plausibility of the theory, because it's OMT's perceptions that are important to it, not reality.
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Yes, I've always thought he looked sad sitting at the table. And the way some people deal with grief is to lash out bitterly and contemptuously -- especially, I'm sure, people who are bitter and contemptuous by nature in the first place.
I've heard a theory that I find semi-convincing, that John Twist is not only grief stricken but that the reason that he denies Ennis the ashes is because he doesn't feel Ennis "deserves" them. Because Ennis rejected Jack's offer and let Jack down, OMT feels he shouldn't get family member status and respect, and is unworthy of scattering the ashes.
I think he wanted Jack home. It was probably a way of showing his love and his pain over losing him. He probably wanted to make clear Jack belonged to his family, therefore he had to be buried at the family plot. About your theory, I don't think Jack's father had that much information about Jack and Ennis's relationship. He obviously knew Jack was queer but I doubt he had details like that. And if he did, I find it hard to believe that he would agree with the idea of two men living together as lovers. I don't think it crossed his mind. In fact, Jack probably talked about Ennis as a friend. His father obviously knew there was more to it but I don't think Jack told him Ennis was his lover or that he had intentions of living with him as a couple. He probably talked about giving Ennis a job or something at the ranch or maybe as a friend willing to help around.
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I still find none of this even semi-convincing.
I think Mr. Twist could probably surmise that if Jack always talked about bringing Ennis up to the ranch, and then Ennis shows up to collect the ashes, that Ennis was not ignorant of Jack's desire that they live together. And in any case, he knows that Jack evidently for years held hopes that Ennis would do it, then suddenly switched to talking about another fella -- suggesting that Jack's hopes had fallen through.
It's pretty clear from his demeanor that John Twist thinks he knows the exact nature of Jack and Ennis's connection--and we know that he's correct in surmising that Ennis was Jack's homosexual lover.
But it still seems to me that any impulse on his part to punish Ennis for supposedly failing Jack would have to grow out of real love for his son, and this brings me back to the behavior, the comments about none of Jack's plans working out, the spitting, which still to me shows nothing but contempt for Jack--and implicitly for Ennis and for Ennis and Jack's relationship.
Sue me for once again allowing the story to color a movie discussion ;D , but this is the man who urinated on his own child. :P
But we do know that Jack asked Ennis to ranch up.
Yes, but what we know about Ennis and Jack is irrelevant for understanding John Twist's motivations. What matters is what his character knows--or thinks he knows--about Ennis and Jack.
He (Jack) may not have mentioned LF specifically, but I don't think it's necessary for him to have done so in order for OMT to realize that Ennis let Jack down. Even if Jack never mentioned LF and therefore OMT is wrongly assuming that he had, that wouldn't affect the plausibility of the theory, because it's OMT's perceptions that are important to it, not reality.
Right! But in the end the plausibilty of the theory is affected by what I have to regard as a serious and overly romanticized misreading of John Twist's character.
I think he wanted Jack home. It was probably a way of showing his love and his pain over losing him.
I'm sorry, Natali, but I have to disagree with you, too. I see no love here--not in light of that comment that Jack "thought he was too damned special to be buried in the family plot," and the tone with which that comment is made.
We see nothing to indicate that John Twist loved his son, only that he was what Annie Proulx describes, a hard-bitten man with the need to be the stud duck in the pond (remember, the term derives from Annie's description of John Twist, not of Jack's father-in-law).
The whole ashes business is nothing but his final act of power over the son of whom he was contemptuous. And that's sad, really; really sad. :(
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I still find none of this even semi-convincing.
Jeff, I'll have to say, I love seeing a post from you, even when it opens like that! :laugh:
It's pretty clear from his demeanor that John Twist thinks he knows the exact nature of Jack and Ennis's connection--and we know that he's correct in surmising that Ennis was Jack's homosexual lover.
Agreed.
But it still seems to me that any impulse on his part to punish Ennis for supposedly failing Jack would have to grow out of real love for his son,
Yes, the way I've laid it out. It's not inconceivable that OMT could want to punish Ennis even if he didn't love his son. Sometimes SOBs are like that. But yes, the theory I described calls for him loving his son and punishing Ennis for letting him down.
and this brings me back to the behavior, the comments about none of Jack's plans working out, the spitting, which still to me shows nothing but contempt for Jack--and implicitly for Ennis and for Ennis and Jack's relationship.
Well, none of Jack's plans DID work out. You don't have to feel contemptuous of him to think that. And the spitting could as easily be interpreted as contempt for Ennis. But I see nothing in his behavior that indicates disapproval of Ennis and Jack's relationship.
Sue me for once again allowing the story to color a movie discussion ;D , but this is the man who urinated on his own child. :P
OK, but in the story Mrs. Twist is portrayed differently, too: "stout [!] and careful in her movements as though recovering from an operation ... He couldn't see much of Jack in either one of them." In the movie, Mrs. Twist's empathy is the driving force behind a heartbreakingly poignant scene. In the story, she barely passes as a sympathetic character.
And while we're on the subject of the story. What's the first thing OMT says when he starts complaining about Jack? Is it "Jack shamed the family by not being a proper sort of husband" or "Jack broke the laws of Nature"? No. It's "I can't get no help out here." Selfish, yes. But OMT's need for help with licking the ranch into shape overshadows his disapproval of Jack's plans for providing that help, even though they include leaving his wife to live with another man.
Yes, but what we know about Ennis and Jack is irrelevant for understanding John Twist's motivations. What matters is what his character knows--or thinks he knows--about Ennis and Jack.
Absolutely!
Right! But in the end the plausibilty of the theory is affected by what I have to regard as a serious and overly romanticized misreading of John Twist's character.
Overly romanticized? Now you're going too far! :laugh: I'm not saying he's the Messiah. I simply don't think OMT is a figure of pure evil. And I don't think he openly displays homophobia. I do think he's an SOB.
May I suggest, Jeff and Natali and anyone else interested, that we move this discussion over to the "Ennis and Old Man Twist" thread, which Amanda thoughtfully bumped for this very purpose? I could discuss OMT all night, but I'll admit he doesn't have much to do with mailboxes or the No. 17 ...
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Yes, the way I've laid it out. It's not inconceivable that OMT could want to punish Ennis even if he didn't love his son. Sometimes SOBs are like that. But yes, the theory I described calls for him loving his son and punishing Ennis for letting him down.
And it's also true that grieving people can lash out irrationally and indiscriminately.
Well, none of Jack's plans DID work out. You don't have to feel contemptuous of him to think that. And the spitting could as easily be interpreted as contempt for Ennis. But I see nothing in his behavior that indicates disapproval of Ennis and Jack's relationship.
Well, I might vote for the coldness of his demeanor as indicating his disapproval, but we don't really see anything that indicates approval, either, do we?
OK, but in the story Mrs. Twist is portrayed differently, too: "stout [!] and careful in her movements as though recovering from an operation ... He couldn't see much of Jack in either one of them." In the movie, Mrs. Twist's empathy is the driving force behind a heartbreakingly poignant scene. In the story, she barely passes as a sympathetic character.
Indeed, yes!
And while we're on the subject of the story. What's the first thing OMT says when he starts complaining about Jack? Is it "Jack shamed the family by not being a proper sort of husband" or "Jack broke the laws of Nature"? No. It's "I can't get no help out here." Selfish, yes. But OMT's need for help with licking the ranch into shape overshadows his disapproval of Jack's plans for providing that help, even though they include leaving his wife to live with another man.
True, though I have to wonder how he would have reacted if they ever had built that cabin for the two of them to live in.
Overly romanticized? Now you're going too far! :laugh: I'm not saying he's the Messiah. I simply don't think OMT is a figure of pure evil. And I don't think he openly displays homophobia. I do think he's an SOB.
Well, I didn't mean to imply that I thought he was necessarily "pure evil," either, but he is a hard, mean man, with a need to be the stud duck in the pond, and he does not love his son. And any man who would urinate on a child to teach him a lesson needs to learn a lesson himself--on the business end of a bull whip. ;D
May I suggest, Jeff and Natali and anyone else interested, that we move this discussion over to the "Ennis and Old Man Twist" thread, which Amanda thoughtfully bumped for this very purpose? I could discuss OMT all night, but I'll admit he doesn't have much to do with mailboxes or the No. 17 ...
Well, yeah, though I think I've pretty much said all I have to say on this theory of John Twist's motivation. Any more and I'll probably just be repeating myself. I have already in this post. :-\
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And it's also true that grieving people can lash out irrationally and indiscriminately.
Yup.
Well, I might vote for the coldness of his demeanor as indicating his disapproval, but we don't really see anything that indicates approval, either, do we?
Nope. I agree he shows disapproval -- just not the kind of disapproval Ennis and viewers might have expected. That is, it evidently isn't disapproval of Jack planning to live with another man so much as Jack failing to follow through on the plan.
True, though I have to wonder how he would have reacted if they ever had built that cabin for the two of them to live in.
Well, I can't see him throwing them a housewarming party.
Well, I didn't mean to imply that I thought he was necessarily "pure evil," either, but he is a hard, mean man, with a need to be the stud duck in the pond, and he does not love his son. And any man who would urinate on a child to teach him a lesson needs to learn a lesson himself--on the business end of a bull whip. ;D
Agreed, regarding story-OMT. I think story-OMT and film-OMT are as different as the story and film versions of various other characters.
Well, yeah, though I think I've pretty much said all I have to say on this theory of John Twist's motivation. Any more and I'll probably just be repeating myself. I have already in this post. :-\
At this point, Jeff, there's probably nothing either of us could say about the movie that we haven't said somewhere before, hunh? ;D
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Well, I can't see him throwing them a housewarming party.
How 'bout a Tupperware party? ;D
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At this point, Jeff, there's probably nothing either of us could say about the movie that we haven't said somewhere before, hunh? ;D
Don't be so sure! I just saw the movie for the first time in a long while in Bay City, and I honestly saw quite a few things that I hadn't seen before or had forgotten about. Like, I noticed several times where Jack appears with a bucket. And, you know what? It struck me that the two paper bags and the buckets are THE SAME. That was like a thunderbolt.
So, I think we should all plan to see BBM on the big screen way out in the middle of nowhere, every once in a while. And, to that end, may I direct you to the graphic at the bottom of this post?! BBM big and HD, in Colorado, this May. You and me, babe, how about it??!!
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It struck me that the two paper bags and the buckets are THE SAME. That was like a thunderbolt.
Hey Lee! This is a really interesting observation, but could you explain a little more what you mean by the bags and the buckets being the same? They may function as bookends, but do you see them as representing the same thing too?
I agree he shows disapproval -- just not the kind of disapproval Ennis and viewers might have expected. That is, it evidently isn't disapproval of Jack planning to live with another man so much as Jack failing to follow through on the plan.
I think maybe Jack's inability to follow through with plans and promises (whether or not this inability is always Jack's fault or entirely within his control) must be a major frustration for OMT. I mean the way OMT complains about Jack's ideas "never coming to pass" is really forceful. It's one of the lines that's really, really well-delivered in this scene. There's a lot of emphasis put on this aspect of OMT's disapproval of Jack.
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I don't fully understand it myself but I'll try to explain. I noticed several more scenes where Jack was shown in connection with a bucket. And so the bucket and the paper bags are associated with Jack. The buckets and paper bags are receptacles--receiving things in balance with acting things in a yin/yang way. Jack and Ennis were a complementary pair in their passive/active roles. Also the buckets and bags were containers, kind of a vessel for the energy of life, the life forces. When I try to articulate these ideas, I am at a loss for words, English words anyway, and I find myself resorting to the language in the Tao te Ching.
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I thought y'all might like to see a picture of a mailbox I spotted while riding thru Ten Sleep Canyon just southwest of Brokenback Mountain:
(http://athena.divshare.com/files/2007/03/06/194727/mailbox.JPG)
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I thought this would be a good place to pop in and say Happy 7th day of the 7th month of the 7th year of this century!! I am planning to return to this thread on my birthday on the 17th!!
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Boy Lee i would venture a guess, that is a one of a kind. Probably in the
whole wide world....?
HAPPY 1st DAY OF YOUR TEN DAYS OF BIRTHDAY
CELEBRATION
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Hey I like this idea very much! I never would have thought of this myself!! As long as I don't have to
sang eat cake for 10 days, I'm going to do this!! Thanks, Janice!!
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I've been prowling around stationary stores looking for foil stick-on letters, but here is the real thing. First, the one:
(http://www.divshare.com/img/1291173-d49.jpg)
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And then the 7. Happy 7-17-07 everybody!!
(http://www.divshare.com/img/1291177-f26.jpg)
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Random revelation from the Castro showing:
When we see Ennis applying the numbers to the mailbox, there is a glimpse of a pickup truck in the background. It looks like Jack's old red truck, a '66 Ford, but there's a difference. Instead of being red and white, it is solid red!! What does this mean??
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And here are the mailbox letters I got for my birthday from my Brokie friends!!
(http://www.divshare.com/img/1317043-8bd.jpg)
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Wow, what a cool idea for a Brokie birthday present! Especially for someone whose birthday is on the 17th.
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Wow, what a cool idea for a Brokie birthday present! Especially for someone whose birthday is on the 17th.
Yup, and I also got the mailbox to go with it! I can't wait to put it up at my lonesome old ranch house!! Y'all come visit and it won't ever be lonesome!!
(http://www.divshare.com/img/1317041-102.jpg)
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Coincidence or homage?
Things to think about:
Brokeback, Psycho, and NxNW are all roughly set in the mid-twentieth century "New West". (Hitchcock considered Psycho something of a western, and wears a cowboy hat in his cameo appearance.)
Brokeback and Psycho, a fly lands on both Ennis and Norman's faces as they are explaining something about themselves? Why?
Ignoring differences between Brokeback and Psycho, what structural similarities in the dramatic presentation of the story exist between Ennis in the alley and Marion Crane's shower scene?
In both Brokeback and Psycho, what unusual camera move helps to tell the story?
How is the embrace in Tent scene 2 similar to the embrace in the cabin on the train in NxNW?
Both Brokeback and Psycho show a character's discomfort by using an "Adam's apple" shot.
Both Brokeback and Psycho are stories of adult children of toxic parents.
In both Brokeback and Psycho, a car passes by in the background in a similar way to heighten the paranoia of a character in the scene.
Cinematographer Prieto makes a cameo appearance as the Mexican hustler, not unlike Hitchcock's cameo appearances. The reference to "the ice storm" in the "blue parka scene" is Lee's stand in for a cameo scene.
Both Brokeback and Psycho reach the climax of the story in house that time seems to have forgotten.
In both Brokeback and Psycho, truth is acquired by "ascending the Hitchcock staircase" to the second level.
In both Brokeback and Psycho, an empty bed and objects from another character's childhood are explored in the bedroom on the second level, and the character then looks out the window.
In both Brokeback and Psycho, the character moves after looking through the window to another room an makes a jolting discovery.
Compare Old Man Twist's face, to Mrs Bate's face.
"He's going in the family plot." What was the name of Hitchcock's last film?
Alfred Hitchcock was married to Alma Hitchcock. She was a screenplay writer.
The name of a lesser known Hitchcock movie was "Number 17" - written by Alma Reville Hitchcock.
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Coincidence or homage?
Things to think about:
Brokeback, Psycho, and NxNW are all roughly set in the mid-twentieth century "New West". (Hitchcock considered Psycho something of a western, and wears a cowboy hat in his cameo appearance.)
Brokeback and Psycho, a fly lands on both Ennis and Norman's faces as they are explaining something about themselves? Why?
Ignoring differences between Brokeback and Psycho, what structural similarities in the dramatic presentation of the story exist between Ennis in the alley and Marion Crane's shower scene?
In both Brokeback and Psycho, what unusual camera move helps to tell the story?
How is the embrace in Tent scene 2 similar to the embrace in the cabin on the train in NxNW?
Both Brokeback and Psycho show a character's discomfort by using an "Adam's apple" shot.
Both Brokeback and Psycho are stories of adult children of toxic parents.
In both Brokeback and Psycho, a car passes by in the background in a similar way to heighten the paranoia of a character in the scene.
Cinematographer Prieto makes a cameo appearance as the Mexican hustler, not unlike Hitchcock's cameo appearances. The reference to "the ice storm" in the "blue parka scene" is Lee's stand in for a cameo scene.
Both Brokeback and Psycho reach the climax of the story in house that time seems to have forgotten.
In both Brokeback and Psycho, truth is acquired by "ascending the Hitchcock staircase" to the second level.
In both Brokeback and Psycho, an empty bed and objects from another character's childhood are explored in the bedroom on the second level, and the character then looks out the window.
In both Brokeback and Psycho, the character moves after looking through the window to another room an makes a jolting discovery.
Compare Old Man Twist's face, to Mrs Bate's face.
"He's going in the family plot." What was the name of Hitchcock's last film?
Alfred Hitchcock was married to Alma Hitchcock. She was a screenplay writer.
The name of a lesser known Hitchcock movie was "Number 17" - written by Alma Reville Hitchcock.
Great post, Bruce. Very interesting and intriguing theory.
But only some of the above mentioned examples are from Ang, others are from Annie. The following are already in the story:
In both Brokeback and Psycho, truth is acquired by "ascending the Hitchcock staircase" to the second level.
In both Brokeback and Psycho, an empty bed and objects from another character's childhood are explored in the bedroom on the second level, and the character then looks out the window.
In both Brokeback and Psycho, the character moves after looking through the window to another room an makes a jolting discovery.
"He's going in the family plot." What was the name of Hitchcock's last film?
Alfred Hitchcock was married to Alma Hitchcock. She was a screenplay writer.
It's ages ago that I saw Psycho the last time; and even longer that I saw NxNW, I can't remember a thing of the latter :-\.
Both Brokeback and Psycho show a character's discomfort by using an "Adam's apple" shot.
??? Would you please explain?
Ignoring differences between Brokeback and Psycho, what structural similarities in the dramatic presentation of the story exist between Ennis in the alley and Marion Crane's shower scene?
Hm. At first I think of a huge difference: the shower scene is famous for its many, many short camera shots (imdb says, more than 90 slices). The alley scene is basically one long shot, interrupted only by a quick counter-shot, when Ennis yells at the passer-by.
The alley scene is framed by the buildings left and right. Is there something similar in the shower scene? Well, it's a narrow place at least. That's a similarity. A bit claustrophobic. Do we see Marion crouch down in the shower?
(http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m47/Penthesilea06/EnnisAlley.jpg)
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Of course we see Marion crouch down in the shower. With her back to the wall/bath tub, her hand streched out in defense. Right? Is she crouched down then?
It's really loooong ago I saw it :laugh:
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Of course we see Marion crouch down in the shower. With her back to the wall/bath tub, her hand streched out in defense. Right? Is she crouched down then?
It's really loooong ago I saw it :laugh:
Since the stories are different it can be confusing to focus on how they are different. Here is what is similar about them.
In Psycho, Marion metaphorically tries to fix what she has done by working out the figures of what she has spent. She then crosses in in front of a mirror where she is partially reflected. She flushes the ripped up figures down the drain, steps into a cubicle, and is joined by another figure. She screams. After she falls dead, the camera closes in on her eye and lap/dissolves to the drain. The story of Marion Crane is not what Psycho will be about. Marion Crane is finished.
Compare this to Brokeback. Ennis metaphorically tries to fix what is happening between himself and Jack by fixing Jack's truck. As Jack leaves, we see Ennis in Jack's rear view mirror -- the equivalent of being reflected and going down the drain at the same time. Ennis steps into an alley and doubled over with cramps, and is also joined by another figure. He screams. As he doubles over, we hear "forgive us our trespasses" -- the audio equivalent of a lap dissolve as the story shifts to Ennis's wedding. Any promise of a future between Jack and Ennis, effectively goes down the drain here as we. The romance of Brokeback mountain is not what Brokeback will be about. The romantic promise of Brokeback is also finished.
Very different stories, but similarities can be found.
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In Psycho, the "Adam's apple" shot is very pronounced as the camera goes below eye level and looks up at Norman's throat as the detective Arbogast questions him.
In Brokeback, the camera stays put, but Heath's head is cocked back at an awkward angle to expose his throat as he sits on the bed. Alma is working her "charms" with "no more loney places". The interesting feature of this awkward head tilt seems to be his exposed throat (the frontal lump on a man's throat is commonly referred to as the "Adam's apple").
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Since the stories are very different it can be confusing to focus on the differences. Here is what is similar about them.
In Psycho, Marion metaphorically tries to fix what she has done by working out the figures of what she has spent. She then crosses in in front of a mirror where she is partially reflected. She flushes the ripped up figures down the drain, steps into a cubicle, and is joined by another figure. She screams. After she falls dead, the camera closes in on her eye and lap/dissolves to the drain. The story of Marion Crane is not what Psycho will be about. Marion Crane is finished.
Compare this to Brokeback. Ennis metaphorically tries to fix what is happening between himself and Jack by fixing Jack's truck. As Jack leaves, we see Ennis in Jack's rear view mirror -- the equivalent of being reflected and going down the drain at the same time. Ennis steps into an alley and doubled over with cramps, and is also joined by another figure. He screams. As he doubles over, we hear "forgive us our trespasses" -- the audio equivalent of a lap dissolve as the story shifts to Ennis's wedding. Any promise of a future between Jack and Ennis, effectively goes down the drain here as we. The romance of Brokeback mountain is not what Brokeback will be about. The romantic promise of Brokeback is also finished.
Very different stories, but similarities can be found.
....
In Psycho, the "Adam's apple" shot is very pronounced as the camera goes below eye level and looks up at Norman's throat as the detective Arbogast questions him.
In Brokeback, the camera stays put, but Heath's head is cocked back at an awkward angle to expose his throat as he sits on the bed. Alma is working her "charms" with "no more loney places". The interesting feature of this awkward head tilt seems to be his exposed throat (the frontal lump on a man's throat is commonly referred to as the "Adam's apple").
....
I don't know if Annie Proulx had any Hitchcock elements in mind when she wrote the short story, but many curious coincidences keep popping up:
One of the scenes that was cut from Brokeback was pulling a VW microbus out of a lake. This would also parallel a remarkably similar scene in Psycho - Marion's car being dredged from the swamp. Presumably, James Schamus wrote this scene and it was cut because it didn't work. Strange that it would also find a parallel a scene in Psycho.
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Since the stories are very different it can be confusing to focus on the differences. Here is what is similar about them.
In Psycho, Marion metaphorically tries to fix what she has done by working out the figures of what she has spent. She then crosses in in front of a mirror where she is partially reflected. She flushes the ripped up figures down the drain, steps into a cubicle, and is joined by another figure. She screams. After she falls dead, the camera closes in on her eye and lap/dissolves to the drain. The story of Marion Crane is not what Psycho will be about. Marion Crane is finished.
Compare this to Brokeback. Ennis metaphorically tries to fix what is happening between himself and Jack by fixing Jack's truck. As Jack leaves, we see Ennis in Jack's rear view mirror -- the equivalent of being reflected and going down the drain at the same time. Ennis steps into an alley and doubled over with cramps, and is also joined by another figure. He screams. As he doubles over, we hear "forgive us our trespasses" -- the audio equivalent of a lap dissolve as the story shifts to Ennis's wedding. Any promise of a future between Jack and Ennis, effectively goes down the drain here as we. The romance of Brokeback mountain is not what Brokeback will be about. The romantic promise of Brokeback is also finished.
Very different stories, but similarities can be found.
Hm. Not sure how to answer with without sounding negatory to the whole point. Yes, if you dig long enough and deep enough, you can find similarities. But you could find similarities between BBM and other classics as well. That's why they are classics: they are pathbreaking on some level(s) and therefore have other artists (directors, actors, writers, etc.) follow their route, hopefully not only imitating, but taking one of those groundbreaking ideas and let their own creativity run wild with it.
I don't want to dismiss your idea as a whole, but my strongest demur is the fact that some of your examples come from Ang Lee and some are from Annie Proulx. It simply can't be a homage from Ang Lee towards Hitchcock that Alma is named just that, because it was Annie who named Ennis's wife.
In Psycho, the "Adam's apple" shot is very pronounced as the camera goes below eye level and looks up at Norman's throat as the detective Arbogast questions him.
In Brokeback, the camera stays put, but Heath's head is cocked back at an awkward angle to expose his throat as he sits on the bed. Alma is working her "charms" with "no more loney places". The interesting feature of this awkward head tilt seems to be his exposed throat (the frontal lump on a man's throat is commonly referred to as the "Adam's apple").
It never struck me as awkward. I think it's natural, he's tired and exhausted (look at his posture and facial expression before Alma approaches him), his muscles ache, especially his neck, so he stretches and rolls it. So the head tilt doesn't seem awkward at all to me. But you are right with the exposure of his throat. It's noticeable. And I think Ang Lee did nothing in this movie without a reason.
Now if I only had the respective scene from Psycho fresh in my memory ::)
I don't know if Annie Proulx had any Hitchcock elements in mind when she wrote the short story, but many curious coincidences keep popping up:
One of the scenes that was cut from Brokeback was pulling a VW microbus out of a lake. This would also parallel a remarkably similar scene in Psycho - Marion's car being dredged from the swamp. Presumably, James Schamus wrote this scene and it was cut because it didn't work. Strange that it would also find a parallel a scene in Psycho.
James Schamus is a third source of parallels between Psycho and BBM. Proulx, Lee and Schamus? To be honest, this sounds unlikely to me.
I think I have to watch Psycho again as soon as I get the opportunity. Some of your examples are truly intriguing (like I already said). I don't want to oppose your theory as a whole, but I can't buy it completely either.
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"Lust, Caution" is now out, and several critics are now remarking on its Hitchcock influences and themes, comparing it to Notorious, Suspicion, and a particular death scene from Torn Curtain.
It would be more surprising to me to find that "Number 17" was anything but a Hitchcock reference.
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Random revelation from the Castro showing:
When we see Ennis applying the numbers to the mailbox, there is a glimpse of a pickup truck in the background. It looks like Jack's old red truck, a '66 Ford, but there's a difference. Instead of being red and white, it is solid red!! What does this mean??
This is a very excellent revelation Sister-Mod! I've never noticed that detail before. I think the trucks in the background function much like the black and white hats in the backgrounds of certain scenes.
OK... so I have a mail related question. Forgive me if we've covered this before.
In Jack's first postcard he writes, "Heard you was in Riverton." How would he have heard this?
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Regarding my previous Hitchcock reference, in "Psycho", the number 17 can be seen on the wall in the police station when the psychiatrist explains about Norman's past...
Coincidence?
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The Number 17 having been discussed beyond my ability to take it all in, I would like to add that I think that Ennis having a mailbox is meaningful in that:
1. He has given up the P.O. Box necessitated by frequest moves, it was a place where Jack could reach him.
2. The P.O. Box was also a place where a postcard could remain safe from many eyes before he saw it. In a mailbox it could get stolen by neighbors.
3. It was symbolic in that he was acknowledging that he was going to be right there, was not going anywhere else, and that the only opportunity he may ever have to live elsewhere was gone.
Now I never understood why he was in Higgins Gift Shop. He never struck me as the kind of person who would go into a gift shop.
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I'd like to analyze the Higgins gift shop scene, because I've never fully understood it. The one thing that stands out for me is when Linda Higgins offers to get him a hunderd (why on earth would he want a hunderd??) and he says,
"One's enough."
One -- as in one lifetime love -- is, indeed, enough for Ennis.
But what else? But what about the part where he washes the horse blankets? And what about when she throws a sopping brown coffee filter into the garbage can? Is it significant that Linda wonders if the Brokeback Mountain he's talking about is in Fremont -- that is, free mountain -- County?
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It could be that she is concerned with inventory, knows that 100 is the minimum order and how long it will take to get rid of the other 99.
The sopping wet coffee filter, hum, I'll have to study on that one. Okay the coffee pot- they always have a coffe pot and Ennis is always looking for the handle. Here is an example of how he is further marginalized, out of his element ina gift shop where they use a machine to make coffee. In the begining of the story he is reheating coffee in an enamel pot. Stale coffee he has saved and Linda, who is not used to privation, casually tosses away the sacred grounds.
The inside of Annie Proulx's mind must be an incredible place.
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I always pictured the 'gift shop' as that little area inside a grocery/gas station/restaurant thing like we have here in small towns in Texas....kinda a one stop shop...
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When I was a teenager. Around about the same time as Jack and Ennis.. We lived way out from the
main town. However we had a truck stop, gas station with a small grocery store, and a post office all in one
building. There was a section to buy levis, shirts and hats. Scarves and gloves. Both work gloves and mittens.
There was a basic food store and a gift card and post card section near the post office as well. As Jess says,
a one stop store, for those times between saturdays for things you needed and didnt have. Since back
then we only went to the market one time a week. It also allowed the huband or sweetheart the luxury of a few gifts for that forgotten birthday, or anniversary too. And oh yes a hand dipped icecream section, and picnic
tables out front. You could sit and visit, or have your soda and ice cream. A bunch of us teens used to ride
bikes over there after we rode the bus home from school and meet and talk and flirt....whatever teens did
back then. Talk about friday night parties at my house. Or out by the reservoirs. LOL
You know stone age stuff.
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That could well be it.
You teenage years sound a lot like mine Janice, except I never had parties at my house. ;D
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The Number 17 having been discussed beyond my ability to take it all in, I would like to add that I think that Ennis having a mailbox is meaningful in that:
1. He has given up the P.O. Box necessitated by frequest moves, it was a place where Jack could reach him.
Ehm, Jack was dead when Ennis put up the PO box :-\
3. It was symbolic in that he was acknowledging that he was going to be right there, was not going anywhere else, and that the only opportunity he may ever have to live elsewhere was gone.
What a sad, but logical view. I can't help seeing the exact same action in a more positive light, somehow like making a declaration : Here I am, Ennis Del Mar.
Now I never understood why he was in Higgins Gift Shop. He never struck me as the kind of person who would go into a gift shop.
Depends on what associativities you have with the term gift shop. Like others have already stated, I thought of a small, old-fashioned corner-shop.
What I found interesting is the fact that Linda Higgings called Ennis by his first name. She knew who he was and they were on friendly enough terms that she called him Ennis.
I somehow picture Linda Higgins as a motherly, middle-aged woman who was on friendly terms with all townsfolk who regularly stopped by her shop.
When Jack came for his surpise visit after the divorce, he had to ask ten different people to find Ennis. But Linda Higgins knew who Ennis was. I like her for this.
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Ehm, Jack was dead when Ennis put up the PO box :-\
A PO Box is a delivery box rented inside the post office. The box that Ennis puts up for mail delivery outside the trailer is the kind that would be used for a R.R. (Rural Route) address, and even though it is numbered, it probably wouldn't be referred to as a PO box.
I believe Ennis picks up his mail general delivery rather than uses a PO box, which means that the post office holds on to it until he comes to the post office to pick it up.
Edit: RR is also listed as RFD (Rural Free Delivery) in some parts of the country.
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Interesting!
Proof? What is on the two or more cards Ennis got??
Hugs!
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General Delivery
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Ennis applying the "7" to his Rural Route mailbox.
(http://www.divshare.com/img/1291177-f26.jpg)
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Ehm, Jack was dead when Ennis put up the PO box :-\
Yes, but I see it that way, too. He was putting out the box as an unconscious invitation for Jack to contact him.
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Of course putting these pictures together reveals a movie mistake:
Jack hasn't included a return address on his card that says he will be coming through Riverton, even though Jack says to drop him a line.
Evidently, Ennis already knows where Jack is living when he writes him back to tell him "You bet!" Since Jack doesn't include a return address, but asks Ennis to "drop him a line" (is this where Ennis gets his fishin' buddies reference?), Jack must already know that Ennis knows where Jack lives!
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Jack must already know that Ennis knows where Jack lives!
:laugh: Guess Ennis keeps his friends' addresses in his head, too. Even if he's never been told what they are.
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:laugh: Guess Ennis keeps his friends' addresses in his head, too. Even if he's never been told what they are.
That's funny! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Thanks for the post cards!!
Isn't there ANOTHER one?
Hugs!!
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there was no need for the case if the fish were immediately prepaired for a meal and how can you tell if a line was ever in the water?
This is my first-ever post, so forgive me if I do it wrong. I was reading this long thread today, and wanted to answer jpwagoneer1964's question above from back in January of 2007, that I don't think anyone ever answered. I think the "case" they were referring to was the tackle box, which, of course, would always be needed when fishing. And you can tell if a line has been in water in two general ways: first, the line, after having been cast and reeled back in a few times (which would have been the case on a "fishing trip" lasting for a week), begins to fray and show wear, similar to the way if you keep trying to thread a needle and missing the eye repeatedly, the thread will eventually split in two; and second, the line itself will discolor and begin to turn grayish or brownish, depending on the types of waters you're fishing in. I'm sure j.p. has long ago forgotten asking this question; I was just trying to be helpful.
Mandy21 (latest member of the day)
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You did everything right, Mandy, and welcome to BetterMost!! I'll bet jp will be glad to have this information! I just love this place...nothing ever dies!!
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This is my first-ever post, so forgive me if I do it wrong. I was reading this long thread today, and wanted to answer jpwagoneer1964's question above from back in January of 2007, that I don't think anyone ever answered. I think the "case" they were referring to was the tackle box, which, of course, would always be needed when fishing. And you can tell if a line has been in water in two general ways: first, the line, after having been cast and reeled back in a few times (which would have been the case on a "fishing trip" lasting for a week), begins to fray and show wear, similar to the way if you keep trying to thread a needle and missing the eye repeatedly, the thread will eventually split in two; and second, the line itself will discolor and begin to turn grayish or brownish, depending on the types of waters you're fishing in. I'm sure j.p. has long ago forgotten asking this question; I was just trying to be helpful.
Mandy21 (latest member of the day)
Nice to see you found your way here, Mandy!
Welcome to Bettermost!
Bruce/ aka "G/xr40"
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This is my first-ever post, so forgive me if I do it wrong. I was reading this long thread today, and wanted to answer jpwagoneer1964's question above from back in January of 2007, that I don't think anyone ever answered. I think the "case" they were referring to was the tackle box, which, of course, would always be needed when fishing. And you can tell if a line has been in water in two general ways: first, the line, after having been cast and reeled back in a few times (which would have been the case on a "fishing trip" lasting for a week), begins to fray and show wear, similar to the way if you keep trying to thread a needle and missing the eye repeatedly, the thread will eventually split in two; and second, the line itself will discolor and begin to turn grayish or brownish, depending on the types of waters you're fishing in. I'm sure j.p. has long ago forgotten asking this question; I was just trying to be helpful.
Mandy21 (latest member of the day)
Hey Mandy!
Great post! And thanks for this info. It's this kind of knowledge and attention to detail about things mentioned in BBM (like fishing, etc.) that make these topics so endlessly fascinating. I personally, don't know anything about fishing, so it's great to know tidbits of info like this to help flesh out some of the context of what's being discussed in the film/ story.
Welcome to BetterMost!
:)
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I'm going to beat you all at being far-fetched: I like to read the 17 as 1+7=8. Because the "8" sideways becomes the sign of infinity. So the 17 really is a riddle, even a riddle within a riddle. 17 equals infinity, and what else equals infinity? The solution is "Jack and Ennis forever".
No, I don't at all think this is what was intended in the film. It's the explanation I favour even so. :-* :)
good point, and remember Jacks goal as a rodeo cowboy is to ride for 8 seconds. the number 8 has very strong mythology in country and western songs because it is a metaphor for success.
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good point, and remember Jacks goal as a rodeo cowboy is to ride for 8 seconds. the number 8 has very strong mythology in country and western songs because it is a metaphor for success.
Good point Bud. Now, following my BBM experience, I've become a big bull riding fan and watch it all the time. And, I've always been curious about the origins of the 8 second rule. I mean... why not an even 10 seconds or a "lucky" 7 seconds? 8 just seems so random somehow. Do you happen to know more about what the number 8 means in this regard?
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This is my first-ever post, so forgive me if I do it wrong. I was reading this long thread today, and wanted to answer jpwagoneer1964's question above from back in January of 2007, that I don't think anyone ever answered. I think the "case" they were referring to was the tackle box, which, of course, would always be needed when fishing. And you can tell if a line has been in water in two general ways: first, the line, after having been cast and reeled back in a few times (which would have been the case on a "fishing trip" lasting for a week), begins to fray and show wear, similar to the way if you keep trying to thread a needle and missing the eye repeatedly, the thread will eventually split in two; and second, the line itself will discolor and begin to turn grayish or brownish, depending on the types of waters you're fishing in. I'm sure j.p. has long ago forgotten asking this question; I was just trying to be helpful.
Mandy21 (latest member of the day)
Hey Mandy!
You are so right! My line usually comes back lookin pretty bad! I have to spend some time cleanin and re-spooling when I get back from a trip!
Welcome to Bettermost and thanks for sharing your insight!
It's never too late to answer a question or post on an old topic. Thats what keeps things alive and flourishing around here!
Richard AKA Loneleeb3
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I'm glad this thread has re-appeared -- last time I watched BBM (about 10 days ago) I'd started wondering about that number 17; always found that one puzzling. I love math, though never studied it beyond high school, and for some reason have always found 17 rather irritating. ::)
"17" didn't seem to be a number with much symbolism attached to it, but I Googled and looked at a site about Number 17 and its significance. (http://www.greatdreams.com/sacred/17-muhammad.htm)
Most of the stuff was pretty far-fetched but here's two things that caught my eye:
The Prime number 17 was called by the Pythagoreans - opposition, obstruction, and evil, and the day the Devil triumphed over God.
Number 17 - The Star of the Magi - This is a highly spiritual number, and was expressed in symbolism by the ancient Chaldeans as the 8-pointed Star of Venus. The Star of the Magi is the image of Love and Peace, and promises that the person or entity it represents will rise superior in spirit to the trials and difficulties of earlier life, with the ability to conquer former failure in personal relationships and the career. 17 is "the number of Immortality," and indicates that the person's name will live after him.
Guess Ennis' name lives after him; but somehow, the early post about it being 17 years from 1967 to 1984 makes more sense. :)
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I'm glad this thread has re-appeared -- last time I watched BBM (about 10 days ago) I'd started wondering about that number 17; always found that one puzzling. I love math, though never studied it beyond high school, and for some reason have always found 17 rather irritating. ::)
"17" didn't seem to be a number with much symbolism attached to it, but I Googled and looked at a site about Number 17 and its significance. (http://www.greatdreams.com/sacred/17-muhammad.htm)
Most of the stuff was pretty far-fetched but here's two things that caught my eye:
The Prime number 17 was called by the Pythagoreans - opposition, obstruction, and evil, and the day the Devil triumphed over God.
Number 17 - The Star of the Magi - This is a highly spiritual number, and was expressed in symbolism by the ancient Chaldeans as the 8-pointed Star of Venus. The Star of the Magi is the image of Love and Peace, and promises that the person or entity it represents will rise superior in spirit to the trials and difficulties of earlier life, with the ability to conquer former failure in personal relationships and the career. 17 is "the number of Immortality," and indicates that the person's name will live after him.
Guess Ennis' name lives after him; but somehow, the early post about it being 17 years from 1967 to 1984 makes more sense. :)
Wow Marge!
Thanks for posting that! I love the meanings given!
This is my favorite. It gives me hope!
The Star of the Magi is the image of Love and Peace, and promises that the person or entity it represents will rise superior in spirit to the trials and difficulties of earlier life, with the ability to conquer former failure in personal relationships and the career.
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Good point Bud. Now, following my BBM experience, I've become a big bull riding fan and watch it all the time. And, I've always been curious about the origins of the 8 second rule. I mean... why not an even 10 seconds or a "lucky" 7 seconds? 8 just seems so random somehow. Do you happen to know more about what the number 8 means in this regard?
THE NUMBER 17 = 1 + 7 = 8 or Eight Seconds
Not sure about the actual origins of the 8 second rule in rodeoing, I do know that my own "Mr Showoff", DL, who has tried Bronc riding, has never held on over for over 7 seconds. And he is foolishly determined to go over that line.
The 8 seconds as the reference to Ennis's mail box number does seem to me to be the simplest and most logical reason for the numbers 1 and 7 to appear on the mail box. I do think that it wasn't put there randomly, and that it must have significance to Ennis, especially given that Ennis backs up and gives the number an appraisal.
The mythology of "8 seconds" runs throughout C&W music, pick an artist and you will find a song that references the 8 second rule. I think to Jack Twist, 8 Seconds meant success in life, achievement in something that he could be proud of, and certainly Ennis knew this. In fact Ennis and Jack discussed the 8 second rule in one of their camp fire suppers while on the mountain. So when Ennis saw the numbers 1 and 7 on his mail box, this would bring back bittersweet memories of Jack.
:)
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THE NUMBER 17 = 1 + 7 = 8 or Eight Seconds
Not sure about the actual origins of the 8 second rule in rodeoing, I do know that my own "Mr Showoff", DL, who has tried Bronc riding, has never held on over for over 7 seconds. And he is foolishly determined to go over that line.
The 8 seconds as the reference to Ennis's mail box number does seem to me to be the simplest and most logical reason for the numbers 1 and 7 to appear on the mail box. I do think that it wasn't put there randomly, and that it must have significance to Ennis, especially given that Ennis backs up and gives the number an appraisal.
The mythology of "8 seconds" runs throughout C&W music, pick an artist and you will find a song that references the 8 second rule. I think to Jack Twist, 8 Seconds meant success in life, achievement in something that he could be proud of, and certainly Ennis knew this. In fact Ennis and Jack discussed the 8 second rule in one of their camp fire suppers while on the mountain. So when Ennis saw the numbers 1 and 7 on his mail box, this would bring back bittersweet memories of Jack.
:)
Heya,
I think it's an interesting hypothesis to suggest that the 1+7 is meant to suggest the 8 second rule (implying success... although I don't know what the success is for Ennis here... what success is Ennis anticipating at this point. It may be a bittersweet memory of Jack, but it's hard to imagine how this concept applies to Ennis himself at this stage in the story if at all).
While I don't know the origins of the 8 second rule... what I do know about the 7th second comes from having watched tons of PBR events at this point and having listened to lots of post-ride interviews that happen at those events. What a lot of the riders and commentators say is ... in the super-frustrating event of being bucked off at 7+ seconds (or just under 8 seconds) this often happens because sometimes after about 6-ish seconds when a rider has a feeling that the ride is going well... there's an almost instinctual habit that kicks in for some guys to relax a bit and sort of lose their form/concentration or to stop working on counter moves. Sometimes around 7 seconds a rider will shift to a "clamp down" mentality or to a "just hold-on" mentality since it seems like such a short time to have to endure to complete the ride. But, this is often a fatal flaw since within 1 second so much can go wrong in a bull ride. And, clamping down and "out muscling" a bull is always a futile strategy no matter how strong the rider. So, maybe this 1+7 is a reference to this particularly difficult last second... the second that counts for success and is seemingly quite hard to achieve in terms of concentration and form in the sport.
I'm still not quite sure how this concept of success applies to Ennis at this sad point in the story though.
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I have never considered this to be all THAT sad a time in Ennis's life...
what is sadder about it than any other time? He had come to terms with himself, he had the memory of a great and true love to fall back on...I know of a lot of people living in fancy surroundings that would give a lot to have that.
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Amanda, great post from last night. I think the only bull riding I've ever watched is the movie "8 Seconds", and that's only because I was ga-ga for Luke Perry (and still am, matter of fact). Anyway, I never knew all that stuff about the bull rider relaxing, and how apparently long that last 1 second between 7 and 8 can drag on when you're on top of a wild beast. Never occurred to me. Hey, I learned something new today. Guess I can go back to bed:) Thanks.
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While I don't know the origins of the 8 second rule... what I do know about the 7th second comes from having watched tons of PBR events at this point and having listened to lots of post-ride interviews that happen at those events. What a lot of the riders and commentators say is ... in the super-frustrating event of being bucked off at 7+ seconds (or just under 8 seconds) this often happens because sometimes after about 6-ish seconds when a rider has a feeling that the ride is going well... there's an almost instinctual habit that kicks in for some guys to relax a bit and sort of lose their form/concentration or to stop working on counter moves. Sometimes around 7 seconds a rider will shift to a "clamp down" mentality or to a "just hold-on" mentality since it seems like such a short time to have to endure to complete the ride. But, this is often a fatal flaw since within 1 second so much can go wrong in a bull ride. And, clamping down and "out muscling" a bull is always a futile strategy no matter how strong the rider. So, maybe this 1+7 is a reference to this particularly difficult last second... the second that counts for success and is seemingly quite hard to achieve in terms of concentration and form in the sport.
Wow, you really DO know your bull-ridin. You could have a second career as a rodeo announcer! Or a rider! ;D
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Amanda, great post from last night. I think the only bull riding I've ever watched is the movie "8 Seconds", and that's only because I was ga-ga for Luke Perry (and still am, matter of fact). Anyway, I never knew all that stuff about the bull rider relaxing, and how apparently long that last 1 second between 7 and 8 can drag on when you're on top of a wild beast. Never occurred to me. Hey, I learned something new today. Guess I can go back to bed:) Thanks.
Wow, you really DO know your bull-ridin. You could have a second career as a rodeo announcer! Or a rider! ;D
;D Thanks Mandy and K! Yeah, it's pretty amazing how long 8 seconds feels when you're actively cheering for someone. The clock counts by tenths of seconds, so it can actually feel endless. I guess that last second is sometimes more of a mental hurdle than anything else (in terms of not letting down one's guard prematurely). And, there are definitely a couple of very good female announcers for PBR events. There's one woman in particular who they often have stationed behind the shoots to do the post-ride interviews, her name is Leah Garcia and she's very fun and knowledgeable. So, yeah, Katherine, I'll keep it on the short-list of possible second-career options. ;D :laugh:
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Of course putting these pictures together reveals a movie mistake:
Jack hasn't included a return address on his card that says he will be coming through Riverton, even though Jack says to drop him a line.
Evidently, Ennis already knows where Jack is living when he writes him back to tell him "You bet!" Since Jack doesn't include a return address, but asks Ennis to "drop him a line" (is this where Ennis gets his fishin' buddies reference?), Jack must already know that Ennis knows where Jack lives!
There are two mistakes revealed here...the story says that Ennis received a letter from Jack, not a postcard. And you can see that Jack writes "Friend this letter is long over due." The post cards came later.
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So, where is the letter ?
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I have thought a lot about the 17 since an extended discussion on the DC forum about number symbolism, quite a while back. And most of it I was not enthusiastic about because discussions of symbolism so often go flying away from particular characters in a particular story. The only possible interest to me was, If Ennis was thinking about those two numbers as he put them up (whether or not he had had a choice in picking his address), what would they have meant to him?
And I don't think he was in school long enough, or was interested enough in written words, to count the letters in Brokeback Mountain, for example.
But what he was always aware of was time, how long tilll he could get free long enough to meet with up with Jack again, how long had it been since he had seen Jack. And that as he thought about their history together he had already counted up the years. And I think as Ennis was putting up those numbers, he was saying again to himself, Just like the seventeen years I was meeting Jack in the mountains! And I think the thought of that, the heft of all those years in spite of the brevity of each meeting, was a consolation to him.
I will include one other correspondence with the 17 which I am absolutely sure is PURE COINCIDENCE! Which I just came up with on my own. And I guess, shows how easy it can be to get numbers to perform tricks for you if you enjoy getting mystical about them. I am going to quote again the sentence from the story I cited in the thread, 'Annie Proulx, classic writer':
Years on years they worked their way through the high meadows and mountain drainages, horse-packing into the Big Horns, Medicine Bows, south end of the Gallatins, Absarokas, Granites, Owl Creeks, the Bridger-Teton Range, the Freezeouts and the Shirleys, Ferrises and the Rattlesnakes, Salt River Range, into the Wind Rivers over and again, the Sierra Madres, Gros Ventres, the Washakies, Laramies, but never returning to Brokeback.
To give a (to me, stunningly) concrete sense of the passage of time and of the epic dimension of their love, Annie lists 17 different mountain ranges and mountains in Wyoming, other than Brokeback Mountain itself, to which they never returned.
The 17 address is only in the movie, this list of names is only in the story. But though I highly doubt that she counted them, I think Annie would have wanted to come up with a list that was roughly proportionate to the number of years they met, and, along the lines of what I said in the other thread, convey in a single sentence what few other writers would have trusted themselves to get across in under a page or two.
Gotta bump this wonderful old thread and say Happy Birthday, Andrew!
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Gotta bump this wonderful old thread and say Happy Birthday, Andrew!
My, those were the days! Thanks for the bump, Front-Ranger.
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You're welcome, chowie! I had a wonderful time catching up with Andrew at the AIDS walk here in Boston.