BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum
Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond => Brokeback Mountain Open Forum => Topic started by: Front-Ranger on September 22, 2006, 06:20:02 pm
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I didn't get to participate in this fun and insightful game on imdb, as described by Katherine:
I'd just been participating in an extremely long bookends thread on imdb. There are some incredibly subtle ones on there -- a few that I'll have to say seemed like kind of a stretch, but many that were pretty amazing.
I'll just throw one out, to whet your appetites, and also to brag that I guessed the correct answer to this bookend challenge that Casey Cornelius posed (the imdb thread is in the form of a game). :D
Some of what people called bookends were later deemed mirrors. When something happens in two different scenes -- such as Jack putting Ennis hand on his erection and then Alma putting Ennis' hand on her pregnant stomach -- they are mirrors, they decided, unless the second scene provides a sense of closure, as the truck and paper bags scenes do. But that's OK, people were throwing mirrors in there, too.
So, I'm assuming one person suggests the first bookend, and the respondent names the other bookend, while starting a new bookend. And we can also include "mirrors" (which I would be more likely, in my English-lit-ish style to call a recurring motif).
Here's my first bookend: Ennis comes upon a bear and is thrown from his horse.
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Is it that Jack really does "die after all?"
I have a hard time thinking straight about Uncle Hal, er Harold, because I've dreamed up such an elaborate story about him, which has no basis in the movie or story!
I'll wait to post another bookend until I find out if mine is right.
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Bookend: Uncle Harold has pneumonia.
I always think of the bookend of this scene as being the divorce scene, because there are similar elements: the contact from someone far away that leads to a journey, the "Here I am," the gaze to a distant person that Jack follows, gradually comprehending.
But Uncle Harold's pneumonia is such a mysterious and complex augury! So I'll look forward, Barbara, to seeing what you have in mind.
Meanwhile, I'm throwin one in that I noticed yesterday. It might be more of a mirror, though.
Mirror: Ennis packs up his horse for his first night on the mountain, Jack warns him he won't get any sleep.
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Mirror: Ennis packs up his horse for his first night on the mountain, Jack warns him he won't get any sleep.
Ennis stays in camp and doesn't get much sleep there either? ;D
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Ennis stays in camp and doesn't get much sleep there either? ;D
That's what I had in mind! ;D (And in both, he packs up the horse and wordlessly rides away while Jack stands there.)
Scene: In the bar, Jack asks Ennis, “Do you ever rodeo?” Ennis responds, “Once in a while.”
Is it, Scene: In the bar, the bartender asks Jack, "Ever try calf roping?" Jack responds, "Do I look like I could afford a f'in ropin horse?"
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That's what I had in mind! ;D (And in both, he packs up the horse and wordlessly rides away while Jack stands there.)
Oh, you meant the dozy embrace! That's better than what I was referring to (which was TS1). Though presumably after they started sleeping together, they spent a lot of time, ummmm, not sleeping. ;D
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Oh, you meant the dozy embrace! That's better than what I was referring to (which was TS1). Though presumably after they started sleeping together, they spent a lot of time, ummmm, not sleeping. ;D
No, I did mean TS1. Though in that case I actually meant the morning after he didn't get much sleep (because it's a mirror, events can happen in reverse order). But I guess Ennis is wordlessly riding away while Jack stands there in a lot of scenes. So it's a multiple mirror/bookend/recurring motif.
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jeez you guys...the side-view mirror at the bneginning and end of the summer...WAKE UP! SUNDAY!
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jeez you guys...the side-view mirror at the bneginning and end of the summer...WAKE UP! SUNDAY!
Yes, Julie, I agree that the side-view mirror is a mirror (or actually a bookend).
How about this:
Ennis is spreading tar alongside a chatty coworker.
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That’s a tough one. Could it be Jack dancing with a chatty partner?
After Ennis describes other people looking at him, Jack says, “Well, maybe you ought to get out of there, y’know? Find yourself someplace different, maybe Texas.”
Wait, are both of those answers to my bookend, or is the second one the beginning of another bookend? Because actually those are both correct answers to my tar-spreading-scene bookend. One is Jack dancing with a chatty partner, the other is Ennis being out on the pavement where someone "knows" about his Brokeback life (i.e., refers obliquely to it).
But if yours is the beginning of a whole NEW bookend, hmmm ... that's a tough one! I'll keep thinking.
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Heya,
Here's a bookend or a mirror... or something. It may be too obvious. But, it's my first attempt at participating in this game.
Jack is dancing with Lureen and changes his demeanor when he hears the song lyric about being lonely.
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I have no idea what the answer to goadra/Barbara's is, so I'll answer Amanda's instead:
Jack is dancing with Lureen and changes his demeanor when he hears the song lyric about being lonely.
Ennis's face changes when Alma talks about him growing up so lonely?
I just wanted to post one, because I finally thought of one:
Jack comments on how much Ennis has spoken.
(This one is probably a mirror, if I understand the definition.)
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Could the mirror be: Cassie says to Junior, “You don’t say much, but you get your point across”?
That one works too. I was thinking of Cassie telling Ennis about how Karl even talks to her (meaning Ennis doesn't).
My bookend: Jack is showing off his horse-riding abilities before they head up Brokeback.
Ennis's story about his saddle-bronc career?
Jack showing off his tractor-driving skills?
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Here are two nested... :) Its a mirror of mirrors or a bookend of bookends or something.
Part one of the first bookend: Ennis to Alma: "If you want a pack of smokes, they're in the pocket of my blue shirt."
Jack showing off his tractor-driving skills?
Jack showing off his rodeo skills to Ennis.
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This may be way off base but could it be when Ennis smokes as he is dancing with Cassie, thus not giving her the attention she wants?
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Part one of the first bookend: Ennis to Alma: "If you want a pack of smokes, they're in the pocket of my blue shirt."
We can't go backwards, can we? Because the line reminds me of how Ennis put his half-smoked cigarette in his shirt pocket while he was waiting for Aguirre to arrive.
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Those are both good responses, but it makes me think of Jack and Ennis smoking at the Siesta Hotel, which is a scene that happens almost immediately after that. It is a verbal to imagery bookend. It is reflected by an imagery to verbal bookend that most people capture... When Alma puts down the newspaper, the frame is centered on the word "Honey."
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Hell, yes, we can go backwards Mel. After all, there's a bookend on either end. What about the scene where Jack has a sheep on top of him while he takes a splinter (?) out of its hoof? Any guesses about the bookend for that?
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Hell, yes, we can go backwards Mel. After all, there's a bookend on either end. What about the scene where Jack has a sheep on top of him while he takes a splinter (?) out of its hoof? Any guesses about the bookend for that?
Maybe when he has a can on top of him and he's trying to open it.
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In the story: “As they descended the slope Ennis felt he was in a slow-motion, but headlong, irreversible fall.”
Okay, back to the film...think of a musical moment...
There's a song listed in the credits, "I'm Always on a Mountain When I Fall." Merle Haggard song. I don't know when it's played, though. I don't recognize any of the three songs after "Melissa" in the credits. I'm trying to remember when there's background music after that... the Childress dance scene uses music from the soundtrack... I don't think it's whatever is blaring from Junior's car at the end... could maybe be playing in the background when Ennis is eating pie at the Greyhound station?
(I love having the credits in the Story-to-Screenplay book. I can never catch half the things in them when they're on the screen, and they're too small to read on the DVD.)
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Maybe when he has a can on top of him and he's trying to open it.
I was thinking more along the lines of when he has Lureen on top of him in the back seat of the T-bird.
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In the story: “As they descended the slope Ennis felt he was in a slow-motion, but headlong, irreversible fall.”
I always connect that with Alma's "long, slow dive." But that's more a mirror than a bookend. And it's not in the movie or related to music ... So I'm curious about what you have in mind!
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Yes. It was a long time before I caught all the lyrics. It seems to express Ennis’s view so well—“Losing’s just become a way of life for me.” He became accustomed to losing early in his life, so probably thought he never deserved any happiness.
I just googled the lyrics. Wow. I think I'm going to start another thread just to let people talk about the background music choices, because I don't think we have one (?). I'll put the lyrics there.
Ok, new one:
Aguirre answers the phone in his office. ("Yeah? No. NO. Not on your fuckin life.")
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Well, the phone call sort of reminds me of Peter denying Jesus three times (I can almost hear a cock crowing outside Aguirre's trailer).
And the scene in general strikes me as sort of a bookend to Ennis getting married -- it's like a wedding that Aguirre is performing. ("Do you, Jack, promise to eat your breakfast and dinner in the camp, but sleep with the sheep 100 percent? ... And do you, Ennis, promise to be at the bridge every Friday at noon for supplies? (**hands Ennis watch/ring **) Then by the powers vested in me, I now pronounce you a pair of deuces. You may get the hell out of my office.")
But regarding the phone call specifically, is the bookend the three times Ennis rejects Jack's offer: once just after the reunion, once after the divorce and once when Jack suggests he move to Texas?
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But regarding the phone call specifically, is the bookend the three times Ennis rejects Jack's offer: once just after the reunion, once after the divorce and once when Jack suggests he move to Texas?
That wasn't what I was thinking of.
I was thinking of answering the phone, specifically, and a little bit of the rhythm of the speech.
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I have no idea what the answer to goadra/Barbara's is, so I'll answer Amanda's instead:
Ennis's face changes when Alma talks about him growing up so lonely?
I'm jumping in belatedly here to say, yup! That's what I was thinking.
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I'll answer this, if I can remember what I was thinking.
The rhythm of Aguirre's speech on the phone reminds me of the rhythm of Lureen's speech when Ennis calls her after Jack's death.
"Who? Who is this?"
But I'm not sure it's right or not.
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Pick a moment in a scene, then think of a later—or earlier—moment that either matches (bookend) or shows something opposite (mirror).
Oh, interesting! I always thought of bookends as being scenes that show a beginning and ending: Ennis collapsing in an alley at the beginning of their relationship, Ennis collapsing in an alley at the end of their relationship. Mirrors I thought of as being scenes that show something in common, perhaps "reflecting" each other, but not necessarily forming that sort of beginning/ending narrative connection: Ennis catching the watch, Jack dropping the keys.
Whichever way you look at it, you often wind up at the same place, I think.
Mel, your answer to your own challenge sounds right to me! The rhythms do match.
(Bonus question: Does "No, no, not on your fucking life" remind anyone besides me of anything?)
I've got another bookend involving the phone-call scene:
Scene: On the phone, Lureen tells Ennis she knows who he is, and Ennis tells Lureen that he and Jack worked on Brokeback together in the summer of 1963.
Bookend (earlier):
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maybe this mirror moment has been mentioned before...
In the first night in the tent, Ennis asks "What are you doing?" when Jack has touched him and he asks exactly the same thing when Cassie puts her feet on his lap to get a footrub.
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Tell you what, I wasn’t entirely sure myself. Your definition’s much better.
They're both good!
I’ll take a wild guess: “We coulda had a good life together. A ****** real good life. Had us a place of our own.” 3 affirmations of the kinda life they coulda had vs. Aguirre’s 3x denial?
Well, that works! I like that answer a lot. They could not have a good life together, could not have a real good life, and not on your f'in life could they have had a place of their own.
What I had in mind, though, was not really a bookend OR a mirror, which is why I made it a bonus question. The whole scene reminds me of a marriage ceremony (from the story: "they came together on paper.") Jack and Ennis are standing in the chapel (the trailer), Aguirre is the clergyman, the watch is the ring, the work instructions are the preamble to the vows (is there a name for that part of the ceremony? The "Do you, Jack, promise to pitch a pup tent on the QT, to eat your breakfast and supper in the camp, to sleep with the sheep 100 percent..." stuff?), and "No, no, not on your f'in life" are the vows themselves. At the end of the ceremony, the newlyweds walk down the aisle (the trailer steps) together and kiss -- I mean, shake hands.
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"Sh*t. That's deep!" But incredibly insightful about the purported 'marriage' that takes place in Aguirre's trailer.
I believe there is a mirror to the dozy embrace - (maybe too easy) - any takers?
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A couple of possibilities come to mind: The Siesta motel embrace? The happy tussle?
I was thinking of the scene where Alma 'embraces' Ennis from behind when he is sitting on the bed and she then launches into her discussion of how she is tired of the 'lonesome ranches'. Maybe that is a stretch of a mirror - or maybe it is not a mirror at all, but that struck me in my recent viewings of BBM.
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This bookend is really small: As Ennis reaches to help Alma up from the snowy ground, he asks, “You all right?”
Hmm ... Is it a bookend to the scene where Ennis doesn't reach to help Jack from the ground and doesn't ask, "You all right?"
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And the scene in general strikes me as sort of a bookend to Ennis getting married -- it's like a wedding that Aguirre is performing. ("Do you, Jack, promise to eat your breakfast and dinner in the camp, but sleep with the sheep 100 percent? ... And do you, Ennis, promise to be at the bridge every Friday at noon for supplies? (**hands Ennis watch/ring **) Then by the powers vested in me, I now pronounce you a pair of deuces. You may get the hell out of my office.")
This is so #$%&ing funny. I never read this thread afore.
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This bookend is really small: As Ennis reaches to help Alma up from the snowy ground, he asks, ?You all right??
Darn! I knew that one. :)
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[Quote from: latjoreme on September 25, 2006, 02:35:38 PM
And the scene in general strikes me as sort of a bookend to Ennis getting married -- it's like a wedding that Aguirre is performing. ("Do you, Jack, promise to eat your breakfast and dinner in the camp, but sleep with the sheep 100 percent? ... And do you, Ennis, promise to be at the bridge every Friday at noon for supplies? (**hands Ennis watch/ring **) Then by the powers vested in me, I now pronounce you a pair of deuces. You may get the hell out of my office.")
This is so #$%&ing funny. I never read this thread afore.
Yikes -- I am repeating myself! Though I doubt that's the first time I've said pretty much the same thing twice on the same thread.
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Just watched BBM again this evening on HBO....I don't know if this one has been mentioned
Dozy embrace = Ennis embracing Jack in life
Shirts in trailer = Ennis embracing Jack in death
Either way - can't get thru either of those parts without many tears
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Was it when Ennis said his dad thought all rodeo cowboys was f**k-ups, looked down at his cup of whiskey, and then Jack said the hell they are, and "danced"?
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Was it when Ennis said his dad thought all rodeo cowboys was f**k-ups, looked down at his cup of whiskey, and then Jack said the hell they are, and "danced"?
I agree totally, that is perfect!!!!
Oh by the way, is there a conscous on when the dozy embrace happened.?
I think it happened after the mixed up sheep, when they were going back to camp and Ennis had such a look of love on his face while he was teasing Jack about the harmonica.. I think the dozy embrace happened soon after the they left the sheep, they went back to camp to eat, and then Ennis left to sheep.
And maybe soon before the snowstorm on the mountain.
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Scene 147, the last scene in which we see Jack (where he was attacked and killed with a tire iron, but possibly in Ennis's imagination) aside from the dozy embrace flashback, is a bookend to what scene??
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Scene 147, the last scene in which we see Jack (where he was attacked and killed with a tire iron, but possibly in Ennis's imagination) aside from the dozy embrace flashback, is a bookend to what scene??
??? Do you mean aside from the Earl flashback? Or am I as clueless as I feel?
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The great bookend: The opening scene of the film, Ennis in a truck moving across the High Plains at dawn, to the left. The closing scene of the story of Jack and Ennis: Ennis driving across the High Plains at Dusk, to the right.
I call it the closing scene because the Film's Epilogue of Ennis in the trailor is --IMO--the SS's Prologue, details changed, emphasis shifted, but emotionally intact. As devastating as the Prologue, in a different way.
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I call it the closing scene because the Film's Epilogue of Ennis in the trailor is --IMO--the SS's Prologue, details changed, emphasis shifted, but emotionally intact. As devastating as the Prologue, in a different way.
Good point, bbjack! I'd never thought of it that way, but it makes sense.
:)
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Scene 147, the last scene in which we see Jack (where he was attacked and killed with a tire iron, but possibly in Ennis's imagination) aside from the dozy embrace flashback, is a bookend to what scene??
I worded this confusingly. Let's try it again. Scene 147, where Jack is attacked and killed, is a bookend to what scene?
And bbj, I agree that the epilogue is the prologue!!
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I worded this confusingly. Let's try it again. Scene 147, where Jack is attacked and killed, is a bookend to what scene?
And bbj, I agree that the epilogue is the prologue!!
Ok, I'll try again, too :).
Two scenes come to my mind: first the Earl flashback. Although we don't see how Earl is attacked, I think it's the most obvious bookend.
The second might seem a bit strange at first: Jack and Lureen in the bar. She comes to him from behind, she hits on him (although not literally), he goes down and lies on his back (in the car), he's defeated - and his fate is sealed :'(.
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Ok, I'll try again, too :).
Two scenes come to my mind: first the Earl flashback. Although we don't see how Earl is attacked, I think it's the most obvious bookend.
The second might seem a bit strange at first: Jack and Lureen in the bar. She comes to him from behind, she hits on him (although not literally), he goes down and lies on his back (in the car), he's defeated - and his fate is sealed :'(.
Very clever suggestions Bud! I especially like your Lureen suggestion. Very subtle.
I think a third option is the dead sheep following TS1.
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I always thought the dead sheep was a bookend for earl lying in the gully. Even splayed the same way.
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I think my
dad er bud, is right! Earl and the sheep are bookends, Ennis is looking at them both times.
Those are good guesses everyone, but according to the annotated script, the Jack death scene is a bookend to...the first scene when he first appears. Both times he's by the railroad tracks.
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Those are good guesses everyone, but according to the annotated script, the Jack death scene is a bookend to...the first scene when he first appears. Both times he's by the railroad tracks.
Wait a minute! Are you saying the annotated script specifically mentions scenes being bookends?!
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Yes, but I have no idea who made the annotations!
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Ennis' headlong, irreversible fall is bookended by...
(and one of the things that precipitates that fall appears in the bookend, too)
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The scvene of the sheep ASCENDING?
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i am so dense at timers.....
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A guess:
Ennis’s headlong, irreversible fall, precipitated by Ennis’s punching Jack (then spitting)
bookended by...
Ennis’s collapse at the lake, preceded by Ennis’s (spitting then) shoving Jack
That works too.
What I was thinking of was Ennis' and Alma's headlong 'fall' down the steep snow-covered hill, the only time they look happy, but the path of their relationship already irreversible and hopeless.
And snow was the precipitating factor in Ennis' and Jack's fall from Brokeback.
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Good one, Fern! I was thinking of the bookend to his headlong, irreversable fall as being when he ascends the staircase at the Twist house. But it's true that in this movie where there's snow, there's something going on. :D
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Good one, Fern! I was thinking of the bookend to his headlong, irreversable fall as being when he ascends the staircase at the Twist house. But it's true that in this movie where there's snow, there's something going on. :D
Maybe we need a thread about snow as a symbol...