BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum
The World Beyond BetterMost => Anything Goes => Topic started by: milomorris on January 16, 2012, 10:14:56 pm
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Milo, I'm not sure why you think he was a "scumbag" just for telling the truth as he believed it to be? If he had entered the service, and been caught in an act with another man, wouldn't he have been dishonorably discharged anyway, and just gone right back to Hollywood? The way I see it, he just saved himself a trip. Plus, I don't think a buzz cut would have been a good look on him, despite his gorgeous face.
Jeff, I'm curious -- why do you think of him as "self-destructive"?
I think all prostitutes are scum. Being proud of it is even more reprehensible. I'm hoping that this particular angle to James Dean's story is just rumor.
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I think all prostitutes are scum. Being proud of it is even more reprehensible. I'm hoping that this particular angle to James Dean's story is just rumor.
Being so narrow-minded is also reprehensible. And rebuking him for wanting to escape the draft? Were you around in those days?
As for this topic site and the film: Thanks, guys, for the great eye-candy. The problems with the film for me were with continuity and bad acting by the main characters. That he was gay, or at least bi-, is not news, and hasn't been for a very long time.
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I think all prostitutes are scum. Being proud of it is even more reprehensible.
I am sorry, but I am so upset by this posting that I must say more.
I have known prostitutes and hustlers in my work with the Ontario Ministry of Correctional Services, other social services, and informally in Toronto bars and clubs over the years. Almost without exception, I have found them to be much like everyone else: wanting some money in their pockets, facing a difficult world, and just trying to do the best they can. If there is a difference, it is that they usually have a more troubled past to deal with, yet seem to be more accepting of other people's foibles and more willing to live and let live. To dismiss them as "scum" is not just narrow-minded, it is unconscionable. These, my friend, are not those who would hurt and oppress you. If you must loose arrows, at least aim them in the tight direction.
Sex-workers are an extremely disadvantaged part of society, and struggle against far more than those who call them names. They battle indifferent social agencies, hostile police, and worst of all, psychopathic crazies who torture and murder them to rid the world of such scum. They are as oppressed as those of us in the LGBT community. WE know what it's like; we, certainly, should be on their side in their struggle.
Why am I the only person to speak out here? Other BetterMostians, and not just LGBT, I implore you to say something.
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I am sorry, but I am so upset by this posting that I must say more.
I have known prostitutes and hustlers in my work with the Ontario Ministry of Correctional Services, other social services, and informally in Toronto bars and clubs over the years. Almost without exception, I have found them to be much like everyone else: wanting some money in their pockets, facing a difficult world, and just trying to do the best they can. If there is a difference, it is that they usually have a more troubled past to deal with, yet seem to be more accepting of other people's foibles and more willing to live and let live. To dismiss them as "scum" is not just narrow-minded, it is unconscionable. These, my friend, are not those who would hurt and oppress you. If you must loose arrows, at least aim them in the tight direction.
Sex-workers are an extremely disadvantaged part of society, and struggle against far more than those who call them names. They battle indifferent social agencies, hostile police, and worst of all, psychopathic crazies who torture and murder them to rid the world of such scum. They are as oppressed as those of us in the LGBT community. WE know what it's like; we, certainly, should be on their side in their struggle.
Why am I the only person to speak out here? Other BetterMostians, and not just LGBT, I implore you to say something.
You're relatively new here, so you probably don't realize that I don't care about your emotional state. It's not my problem. You can be as upset as you feel is commensurate with this topic, but your feelings are neither a substitute for an actual rational postion, nor will they have any effect on my position.
You call for others here at Bettermost to say something about my comments here. Those who had something to say did so. If you would like to engage in further debate, then I would encourage you to propose a debatable position. Otherwise, save your "outrage" for someone who actually cares.
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You're relatively new here, so you probably don't realize that I don't care about your emotional state. It's not my problem. You can be as upset as you feel is commensurate with this topic, but your feelings are neither a substitute for an actual rational postion, nor will they have any effect on my position.
You call for others here at Bettermost to say something about my comments here. Those that had something to say did so. If you would like to engage in further debate, then I would encourage you to propose a debatable position. Otherwise, save your "outrage" for someone who actually cares.
You do realise that saying that "I think all prostitutes are scums" is not an argument - it´s you expressing your emotions and feelings for something. But it has nothing to do with argumentation or facts. It´s just you feeling like crapping on something.
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You do realise that saying that "I think all prostitutes are scums" is not an argument - it´s you expressing your emotions and feelings for something. But it has nothing to do with argumentation or facts. It´s just you feeling like crapping on something.
OK. Here's a couple of facts: prostitutes are criminals in most places across the world, and they have negative effects on the general health and welfare of society wherever they operate.
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OK. Here's a couple of facts: prostitutes are criminals in most places across the world, and they have negative effects on the general health and welfare of society wherever they operate.
You forget the tricks - who are usually men - that buy (mostly) poor women.
I fully support the Swedish law in this regard - here it legal to sell sex but illegal to buy it. We go after the buyers instead of the sellers who in most cases come from broken homes or have gone through other difficulties in their lives.
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You're relatively new here, so you probably don't realize that I don't care about your emotional state. It's not my problem. You can be as upset as you feel is commensurate with this topic, but your feelings are neither a substitute for an actual rational postion, nor will they have any effect on my position.
You call for others here at Bettermost to say something about my comments here. Those who had something to say did so. If you would like to engage in further debate, then I would encourage you to propose a debatable position. Otherwise, save your "outrage" for someone who actually cares.
I guess name calling (i.e., scum) is a rational position.
I don't much care for hookers and hustlers, either, especially those who hawk their wares in my neighborhood, but I don't delude myself that my dislike of them is rational. Like or dislike, either way, that's an emotional reaction.
It's rational to be concerned about the effect prostitution might have on crime in the neighborhood, or the effect on property values, but I don't fool myself that those are the reasons I don't like hookers and hustlers.
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You forget the tricks - who are usually men - that buy (mostly) poor women.
No, I don't forget the customers. They are the ones who create the demand.
The Swedes have their way of dealing with the problem. Fine. Here in the US we go after both the customer, and the provider. Much like the drug trade, both sides need the attention of law enforcement.
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I guess name calling (i.e., scum) is a rational position.
I never said that it (name-calling) was a rational position. Its not. It is based on an emotional response. The mistake x-man made is that he decided that he wants to argue with it, and has called for others here at Bettermost to join him in this effort. One cannot have an argument over an emotion. One can agree or disagree, but emotional expressions are not debatable points...whether they be my expressions, or anyone else's.
That is the point I'm trying to make.
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I never said that it (name-calling) was a rational position. Its not. It is based on an emotional response. The mistake x-man made is that he decided that he wants to argue with it, and has called for others here at Bettermost to join him in this effort. One cannot have an argument over an emotion. One can agree or disagree, but emotional expressions are not debatable points...whether they be my expressions, or anyone else's.
That is the point I'm trying to make.
One cannot have an argument over an emotion? Oh really? Then what about the emotions of bigoted whites which were certainly argued over by your whole country leading to the Civil Rights Act?--Emotions were examined, found to be wrong, and some change was possible. How about the emotions of homophobes that have led...well, you know where I am headed. Concerted behaviour that leads to discounting and oppression is by its very nature emotional and bigoted. Our job is to examine emotional responses that target others, see if they have any reality about them, and if they do not, to uproot them.
I gave you my own personal experience with this problem, and my knowing at firsthand that sex-trade workers are not scum. They may have troubled backgrounds and make bad choices based on that background, but they are not scum. They are trying to do the best they can in the face of daunting odds, and they are not scum.
Your reply was that I was new to BetterMost, you don't care about my emotional state, and that I should save my outrage for somebody who actually cares. Well, that is quite a thought-out, rational response! I think you shot yourself in the foot on this one. I sense that other people here, while they may not favour prostitution, do not consider sex-trade workers to be scum.
Try your comments out again, substituting Black or gay for sex-trade worker, and see how uncomfortably close they come to the emotion brought to the treatment of such minorities in North America and the world.
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One cannot have an argument over an emotion? Oh really?
Yes, really. An emotion is not a debatable concept. One simply has an emotion. One cannot say that a person did, or did not experience an emotion. An emotion is neither right nor wrong. The occurrence of an emotion is an irrefutable fact.
For example, if I say that pepperoni pizza makes me happy, you cannot say that I am wrong with any veracity. The fact is that pepperoni pizza does indeed make me happy. You cannot validly say that my happiness does not exist, nor can you validly say that what I an feeling is not happiness.
What you're telling me is that I should not feel the way I do about prostitutes. That is not debate. That is not an argument. That is moral opinion, a/k/a dogma.
Then what about the emotions of bigoted whites which were certainly argued over by your whole country leading to the Civil Rights Act?--Emotions were examined, found to be wrong, and some change was possible. How about the emotions of homophobes that have led...well, you know where I am headed. Concerted behaviour that leads to discounting and oppression is by its very nature emotional and bigoted. Our job is to examine emotional responses that target others, see if they have any reality about them, and if they do not, to uproot them.
Wrong.
The Civil Rights Movement was not played on an emotional gridiron, but rather the legal and behavioral gridirons. It was racist laws and behaviors that were challenged specifically, not racist emotions. Don't play the race card with me. You'll always lose.
There is no government or law that is capable of controlling a human emotion. Governments and laws can only reward or punish behavior.
I gave you my own personal experience with this problem, and my knowing at firsthand that sex-trade workers are not scum. They may have troubled backgrounds and make bad choices based on that background, but they are not scum. They are trying to do the best they can in the face of daunting odds, and they are not scum.
Excuses.
I have my own personal experience with whores. I have never seen any good come from the practice of prostitution. If you have, I'd be interested to hear your stories, and learn of the outcomes. At least we both agree that prostitution is a problem.
Your reply was that I was new to BetterMost, you don't care about my emotional state, and that I should save my outrage for somebody who actually cares. Well, that is quite a thought-out, rational response! I think you shot yourself in the foot on this one. I sense that other people here, while they may not favour prostitution, do not consider sex-trade workers to be scum.
OK. Here's where you shot yourself in the foot: you called for other netizens of Bettermost to come here and chastise me for my opinion on prostitution. That is a boldface, disrespectful confrontation. You crossed the border into the land called FuckinWithMilo. You really don't want to be there.
Try your comments out again, substituting Black or gay for sex-trade worker, and see how uncomfortably close they come to the emotion brought to the treatment of such minorities in North America and the world.
Apples and oranges.
Being black or homosexual are innate human traits. Being a prostitute is, for the most part, a career choice. The former are not comparable to the latter.
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Prostitution is illegal in most backward parts of the world. It is not illegal in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and much of Western Europe. In those countries it can be regulated to reduce negative health effects.
Your liberal elitist position fails to recognize that America has done, and continues to do amazingly vital good things all over the planet, and is doing relatively well for itself. The American prohibition of prostitution has in fact not made it a "backward" part of the world.
I would also be interested to see what information you have on the well-being of prostitutes in the countries you mention as compared with the well-being of prostitutes here in the USA.
Until I was in my late 40's homosexual acts were illegal. Did that make me scum?
I don't know you well enough to say what made you scum, or what didn't. What I do know is--as I have already said above to x-man--that comparing homosexuality to prostitution is an false dichotomy. Homosexuality is an innate human trait. Prostitution is, for the most part, a career choice.
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Scum is in the eye of the beholder. You have a habit of generalising and your posts are often offensive, but hey, you don't give a shit and that's fine. I don't give a shit either but at least I don't call a whole segment of society "scum" based on a stereotype.
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So Milo, what made YOU scum, lol! Scum is in the eye of the beholder. You are a bigot who has a habit of generalising and your posts are often offensive, but hey, you don't give a shit and that's fine. I don't give a shit either but at least I don't call a whole section of society "scum" based on a stereotype.
MODERATOR?!?!?!
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MODERATOR, it's okay, I edited my post to make it less truthful.
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MODERATOR, it's okay, I edited my post to make it less truthful.
Oh, the humanity!!
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MODERATOR?!?!?!
Are you calling for help?
From other postings here I see that others recognize that the issue is not your opinion of prostitution, but your labeling sex-trade workers as "scum." You consistently refuse to address this in your remarks. You have backed yourself into a corner, friend, and everybody knows it. If you think you are going to scare us by talk of "Don't fuck with Milo...You don't want to go there," you are quite mistaken. I see from your postings in general, and from personal messages I have received from other BetterMostians, that you are no stranger to this kind of bullying "argumentation." That's sad--for you and for BetterMost.
I first thought of going through your long quote-and-response just above this last one and refuting it point by point. But I don't think I need to. You have revealed yourself as the emperor without his clothes. People can read; why say more? It's been fun, but frankly this is getting tedious.
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Are you calling for help?
Yes. Gil and I have had many heated exchanges over the years. I have been coached by the moderators here at Bettermost that I should not lash out at him in response to personal attacks, but rather seek their help. In keeping with that request, I ask for help from them.
From other postings here I see that others recognize that the issue is not your opinion of prostitution, but your labeling sex-trade workers as "scum." You consistently refuse to address this in your remarks. You have backed yourself into a corner, friend, and everybody knows it. If you think you are going to scare us by talk of "Don't fuck with Milo...You don't want to go there," you are quite mistaken. I see from your postings in general, and from personal messages I have received from other BetterMostians, that you are no stranger to this kind of bullying "argumentation." That's sad--for you and for BetterMost.
-- Sex is not "work."
-- You seem to have missed the point ...
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Oh good!! I guess that means you're going to stop harassing me.
And let's not forget that you are the one who brought this fight to the playground. If you find it tedious, you have nobody but yourself to blame.
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Hello, I have removed a couple of posts and edited one post that contained personal attacks. Please keep the discussion civil. Thank you.
Also, this thread is about a film about James Dean. Let's please stick to the topic or, if we have to veer off topic, at least not just devolve into name-calling. Thank you.
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This morning I visited the site of The Great Joshua Tree Battle of 26 September 2013. I see that through judicious editing and deletion virtually nothing but wreckage remains. The thread makes little sense now, and I think this a loss--primarily of the in-context testimony by several BetterMostians that people WILL speak out against ugly, hurtful stereotyping when they see it. I thank you all. I know that many of you have long since given up on the fight here in BetterMost against a radical, right-wing minority. After the events of yesterday, I am not sure anymore if I would challenge this feeling of tiredness. I am lucky to live in my part of the world; we don't have much of that sort of thing here. It is one of our blessings. I salute you BetterMostians who manage to keep an optimistic face in spite of it all.
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This morning I visited the site of The Great Joshua Tree Battle of 26 September 2013. I see that through judicious editing and deletion virtually nothing but wreckage remains. The thread makes little sense now, and I think this a loss--primarily of the in-context testimony by several BetterMostians that people WILL speak out against ugly, hurtful stereotyping when they see it. I thank you all. I know that many of you have long since given up on the fight here in BetterMost against a radical, right-wing minority. After the events of yesterday, I am not sure anymore if I would challenge this feeling of tiredness. I am lucky to live in my part of the world; we don't have much of that sort of thing here. It is one of our blessings. I salute you BetterMostians who manage to keep an optimistic face in spite of it all.
...And the insults keep flying. You don't seem to understand that characterizing me as "ugly," "hurtful," etc. constitute direct personal attacks. You are not allowed to impose your leftist group-think on me, or anyone else here at Bettermost with this kind of pressure and harassment. This has to stop.
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I think all prostitutes are scum. Being proud of it is even more reprehensible. I'm hoping that this particular angle to James Dean's story is just rumor.
FWIW, this dialogue / exchange of thoughts originally occurred almost two years ago. The last point being made, in answer to my question for further explanation, was that of Milo expressing his opinion, which he and all of us have a right to do as long as we keep it respectful of other BetterMostians. I did not, and do not agree, with his statement, BUT the only personal experience I have with prostitutes is seeing a couple on the streets of St. Louis a few times as I passed by in the car. The rest of my education regarding prostitution has come only from the big and small screen and books, which could be entirely fiction for all I know. I let Milo's statement stand because it was one based on personal experience, one or more of which must have been very traumatic in order for him to feel this way. It was none of my business to ask for further explanation or get into an argument. He is entitled to his opinion based on his real-life experiences. That's what I believe anyway.
I also believe it is the unfortunate task of the moderators here to use their learned judgment to keep things respectful between us. This is not the place to go to call people by hurtful, judgmental names. Lee was perfectly within her purview to delete judiciously so that as few people as possible get offended or insulted by disrespectful behavior.
Having said that, X-Man is new to our group and is getting adjusted and learning the particular styles of the individuals who contribute regularly to these threads. I appreciate his passion and his fresh thoughts and his articulate, educated, experienced opinions. X-Man, you should know these are all highly intelligent and passionate people, who will argue and defend their case most convincingly. The trick is to listen to ALL sides, and to add your respectful opinion when the spirit moves you.
Just wanted to get that off my chest as it seems it was my questioning years ago that started this controversy. Hope it ends civilly.
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Thanks for your thoughts, Mandy.
If this is agreeable to everyone, I would like to reinstate the deleted posts in their own separate thread called "On the Subject of Prostitution" in the Anything Goes section, which is also moderated by Roland. If there are any other posts in this thread that you would like moved over to the new thread, just let me know.
Gil, I very much appreciate you editing the personal attack out of your thread and I will put it in with the others.
Just a reminder, let's talk about ideas and not attack people or groups, or call people or groups names. Thank you.
Later: Okay, the new topic is located here: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,50885.0.html (http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,50885.0.html)
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I haven't thought about prostitution since the film Slumdog Millionnaire came out, but it's something that we should be thinking about.
My first thought is that prostitution is a poor way to take care of humanity's sexual needs. I mean, Jack had a rather sad look on his face when he went to El Paso and met up with a prostitute there (even though he was an award winning and brilliant cinematographer!). Prostitution robs children of their childhoods and innocence. Prostitution spreads disease and exploits poor people and vulnerable people. There ought to be a better way for poor and untrained people to make a living but sometimes there isn't.
So, I feel about prostitution somewhat the same way as I feel about soldiers. I despise what they do, but I have respect for the individuals who do it. And there is a tinge of "there but for fortune, go I" also.
Later: I agree with milo that there are very few similarities between homosexuality and prostitution. One thing that is somewhat of a similarity is the matter of choice. People don't choose to be homosexual or heterosexual or bisexual. In the same way, people don't choose to be prostitutes. Very few, anyway.
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At this point I don't know if I will contribute anything to the new thread because I am so tired and disappointed in how the Battle of Joshua Tree turned out. I do, however, applaud your wanting to do something. It is in this spirit that I suggest you add to the postings you have moved all the others, beginning with Milo's initial posting where he says that he believes all prostitutes are scum. It is only in this larger context that the postings you have selected make sense.
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I am all in favor of re-posting the deleted content along with the rest of the posts of the last couple of days. It will serve as a public record of what happened here, and who said what to whom. That will serve as a reference point just in case there is any meshugenah about this in the future.
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If this is agreeable to everyone, I would like to reinstate the deleted posts in their own separate thread called "On the Subject of Prostitution" in the Anything Goes section, which is also moderated by Roland. If there are any other posts in this thread that you would like moved over to the new thread, just let me know.
Do you accept Milo's and my suggestion that everything pertaining to the Battle be moved, and kept in its original sequence? If so, perhaps it might be wise to act quickly, lest new postings be added in the meantime to what is now at the new site and confuse the situation.
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I don't give a shit either but at least I don't call a whole segment of society "scum" based on a stereotype.
My perspective is not based on any stereotype, but rather on my personal experiences with prostitution. Some people think that people turn to prostitution out of desperation, dysfunctional backgrounds, etc. While this is certainly true for some whores, it is not the case for many others. And even those that come out of an "at-risk" population have other choices available to them.
I went to college with a guy who decided to become an "escort" because it offered him 2 things: better access to drugs, and easy, willing sex partners. He was from what most people would call a stable family in a desirable ZIP code in the Princeton area.
I also knew a young woman who grew up in a trailer park in Nebraska where her parents were never formally divorced, but lived apart due to her mother's alcoholism. Because her father worked so many hours, she basically raised her 3 younger siblings. There was nobody in her family to help her pay for college, so she turned to prostitution in order to get an education. She stole from me. She tried to block me from getting cast in a show (which didn't work). And she ended up knocking on my door in the wee hours one morning begging for money to pay her pimp because she had used her trick money for drugs. Like a fool, I took pity on her and gave her the cash she needed because I didn't want her to get beat up by her pimp.
These are just 2 of many examples of how life has taught me how bad prostitution can be. "Scum" might be an offensive word to some people here at Bettermost, but it is the word that most accurately mirrors and expresses what I have experienced relative to this business practice.
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Do you accept Milo's and my suggestion that everything pertaining to the Battle be moved, and kept in its original sequence? If so, perhaps it might be wise to act quickly, lest new postings be added in the meantime to what is now at the new site and confuse the situation.
Yes, I am starting to take care of that now.
Later: move complete. Let me know of any further questions or requests. Thank you.
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Milo, thanks for sharing those two examples. It makes your position a bit clearer, at least to me. We must have lived very different lives indeed, considering I've never known a single soul who had to turn to this profession for any reason.
Lee, thanks for all the moving around and technical stuff you had to do to re-thread it all.
Paul (southendmd) and any others who've actually seen the film -- was there any reference to prostitution in it? I'd be curious if Mr. Dean ever participated as either a customer or a provider of such services.
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Paul (southendmd) and any others who've actually seen the film -- was there any reference to prostitution in it? I'd be curious if Mr. Dean ever participated as either a customer or a provider of such services.
I have seen the film. (It is on Netflix.) There is no talk of prostitution in the film. This was an assertion made by a posting here, seemingly suggesting that Dean was "sleeping his way to the top," and that in doing so Dean was behaving like a prostitute. Whether that is a fair assertion to make about Dean, I leave up to you.
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If James Dean was using sex to get ahead in Hollywood, I'm sure he wasn't the first actor to do so, and I'd bet the rent (if I was paying rent) that he wasn't the last.
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If James Dean was using sex to get ahead in Hollywood, I'm sure he wasn't the first actor to do so, and I'd bet the rent (if I was paying rent) that he wasn't the last.
I for one cling to the hope that he was not doing that. It doesn't matter how many actors/actresses were, or are currently doing it, it is still wrong.