BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum
Our BetterMost Community => Chez Tremblay => Topic started by: ednbarby on October 14, 2006, 10:30:45 am
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I watched the movie last night again for the first time in over a month, and as usual, even though I've now seen it 18 times (but who's counting?), I noticed a couple of things I hadn't before. And unlike all the other times, I had a revelation. I discovered exactly why it is I personally am drawn to this story and these characters. Like Eric has said, what you get out of this movie is what you bring to it. And part of that is one's willingness to face what one brings to it.
Others here have shared some intensely personal stuff here, and I'm about to do the same, and without trepidation because you all make me feel quite safe. So here goes: My husband and I have had some problems in our marriage with intimacy. It's not that we have no desire to be intimate with each other and it's not that we haven't been, and many times. But we haven't been as intimate with each other and on as regular a basis as I'm sure he would like or even as I would as a typical straight woman who does truly love and trust her husband but who is 41 and has had a child and works outside of the home as well. He's known since we were dating that I was molested as a child repeatedly. But he has always thought it was by a close friend of one of my older brothers. He's thought that because that's all I've told him. Until two weeks ago, when we finally had "The Talk" - the one that would determine whether we would separate or not. Yes, it had gotten that bad. Two weeks ago I told him the truth - that in fact it was one of my brothers. And it was for at least three years, when I was between the ages of 6 and 9. All this time, I had rationalized that I should never tell him because I didn't want him to hate my brother. I have a decent relationship with him now - he's even visited us, with his wife at the time, a couple of times here in Florida and he and my husband get along quite well. But I realize it was really because I was ashamed and I worried that he'd think less of me.
Of course he was floored. But instead of being hurt that I hadn't trusted him enough to tell him sooner, it released all the love he's had for me all these years but kept hidden because he feared it wasn't truly reciprocated. We talked and cried and held each other for another hour, and the next morning, it was as if we had started completely over. All the resentment he's had towards me because he felt unloved by me was gone, and he was more loving and affectionate than I even realized he was capable of being. I think we can truly move on from here and be better than we've ever been, as long as we keep talking about it and facing it together whenever the need arises.
So now I watched the movie last night, I realize, for the first time since that revelation was made. And had another one. As I watched Ennis close that closet in his trailer at the end, I literally thought "Oh, Ennis. You'll never be able to get past it." And then I realized it: I am Ennis. That's what I've brought to it every single time. That's why I want to reach into the screen and rock him in my arms when he backs away from that closet, his eyes looking like black quartz brimming with those tears. But hopefully now I'm Ennis who's getting another chance, and who isn't going to be afraid to take it.
And now I know, too, why my husband who up until that time had never really cried in front of me wept openly when Ennis found the shirts the time he watched it with me.
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Dear Barb, thank you for trusting us enough to share this with us. I am proud and happy for you and your husband that you had this revelation. We all have an Ennis inside us and this is the place to let him come out and realize that he is loved and begin to heal.
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Barb-
You are so incredible-I hope you had that revelation as well. In my other life I am, and have been for a long time, deeply involved in the anti-sexual assault movement as an educator, rape and sexual abuse counselor and advocate and non-profit board member. I know the immediate and long-lasting effects of abuse on survivors and the damage it does to the soul. I applaud you for sharing your story with your husband and feel honored that you shared it with me. My respect and admiration for you just continues to grow :-*
Roux
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Barb, I wished we lived near eachother! I'd be over there in a heartbeat to give ya a hug Darlin! :-*
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Thank you, Barb, for sharing that. I'm really happy to hear that you and your husband are closer than ever instead of talking about parting. The way you connect it to the film is very moving and makes me glad all over again that it got made. A big hug to you! :-*
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Barb - thank you for telling us your story.I know you aren't afraid tp grab hold of that chance.
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Thanks for the very kind thoughts, all. And David, I wish we lived near eachother, too. :)
What's saddest to me is how not unique my experience is. Several woman friends have confided in me over the years that they lived through similar horrors as children - stepfathers, uncles, family "friends," neighbors, and yes, brothers and fathers. I'm sure many men have lived through it, too, but it seems more prevalent in women. I like to hope it was a product of the 70s somehow and that it's getting better for children now, but I fear it's most likely gotten worse considering the more isolated we've all become in this sprawling suburbia, technology-obsessed age. At least when I was a kid, we were always outside running around with the neighbor kids weather permitting. Now kids stay inside all the time - it worries me.
That's wonderful work you're doing, Rouxb. I bow to you and people like you who are helping. I aim to become one of those people in the very near future.
Thank you, everyone, for being the true family I never had, and thank you Phillip, for providing a safe haven here to all of us Ennises.
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Geez, I guess I've repressed this too. But when I was 10 years old, my older brother pressured me to fool around with him. I didn't think much of it at the time, but today I can do the math. My brother is 8 years older than I am!
I'm sure plenty of people would point and say : "See? that made you queer!" It didn't make my brother Gay. He is married with three kids.
I've never told anybody that in my life! BetterMost opens up all kinds of Closets I guess!
I don't think it did any great damage to me emotionally. I dated girls eventually. I made my own choices. Not to disparage anyone who is still suffering the scars of such an event. Every situation is different. How we carry this with us is the important part. Knowing that it is OK to be loved and held by our loved ones is a matter of trust.
Barb, I'm sure that you know how much your husband loves you. He sounds like a great guy. And a what makes for a great spouse is that they are also your best friend. It sure sounds like you are in great hands.
David :)
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thank you for sharing that post with us, Barb. It takes a tremendous amount of courage to admit and face our own fears. For you to open up to your husband at such a crucial time must have been scary. I am happy that he instead of being angry allowed himself to see how much you do love him. I think you're right. I think you two will be able to move forward together from here. We're here, pulling for you, and you know that.
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I know what you mean, David - I hate that rationale, too - the one that says that if a gay man was molested as a child, that's "the reason." ::)
If that's the case, shouldn't I only like doing it with members of my own family? Good God, the ignorance of everyday people just astonishes me sometimes.
Similarly, I *hate hate hate* that Mark Foley's admitting he is gay is somehow supposed to exonerate him from being a pedophile. HEL-LO! A pedophile is a pedophile. There are gay pedophiles and there are straight pedophiles. One thing doesn't lead to the other. Ignoramuses.
I think maybe it's been harder for me to get past it because I pushed it down inside for so long. It went on for three or four years and I felt horrible about it every time and yet did nothing to try to stop it myself. Why didn't I go to my other brother (who, as it turns out, ultimately found out about it and put a stop to it largely unbeknownst to me until fairly recently) or my mother? Why didn't I fight him? Why didn't I do something? There's a shame associated with doing nothing that's the hardest thing to shake, I think. And I think it's left me thinking for years and years that sex is somehow a dirty, uncivilized thing - a thing you should be ashamed of. When someone like me finds herself with a loving, caring, trustworthy man, we don't know what to do with ourselves. For years, through high school and college, I was only attracted to the "bad boys" - the ones who would ultimately treat me like crap, and I was smart enough to know they would from the get-go, because I must have thought that's what I deserved to be treated like. Ed was the first to ever truly treat me like an equal. And while I basked in the glow of his love, I shied away from it, too. Meet Barbara Del Mar.
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So now I watched the movie last night ... As I watched Ennis close that closet in his trailer at the end, I literally thought "Oh, Ennis. You'll never be able to get past it."
I agree with you 100% here. Alot of folks think that Ennis has made great progress at the end of the movie. The mailbox, going to alma Jrs wedding, etc etc.
Wrong! moving away from town and living in that trailer is one more step to isolate himself from suspecting eyes. Locking Jacks shirt up in the closet in a shrine may be a sign he accepts Jacks love, but surely not a sign that he will go out and meet a new boyfriend.
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Another hug out to you, Barb.
Sadly, I think you are right in believing things are not better. I also think family sex abuse is extremely underreported because of the family issues & shame that in itself causes. I don't mean to go where I shouldn't - but, if you haven't, maybe someday you & your brother can come to a place of peace (which does not mean to say acceptance of his abuse). His rationalization will be defensive but when/if you are ready - you'll know what to say.
And again you are so right - being a pedophile has nothing to do with one's sexual orientation (straight or gay) they are simply sexually attracted to children. I have not seen Foley using his being gay - but I have seen the newspapers somehow connect the two. (How typical). I have, however, seen that he does use sexual abuse as a reason & unfortunately, there is a pattern of the abused becoming abusers.
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Another hug out to you, Barb.
Sadly, I think you are right in believing things are not better. I also think family sex abuse is extremely underreported because of the family issues & shame that in itself causes. I don't mean to go where I shouldn't - but, if you haven't, maybe someday you & your brother can come to a place of peace (which does not mean to say acceptance of his abuse). His rationalization will be defensive but when/if you are ready - you'll know what to say.
And again you are so right - being a pedophile has nothing to do with one's sexual orientation (straight or gay) they are simply sexually attracted to children. I have not seen Foley using his being gay - but I have seen the newspapers somehow connect the two. (How typical). I have, however, seen that he does use sexual abuse as a reason & unfortunately, there is a pattern of the abused becoming abusers.
Right - Mark Foley himself isn't saying, "Look, I'm gay, and that's why I'm so f***ed up" but the media is absolutely spinning it that way. Have I mentioned lately how much I hate the media rat bastards that do such evil things?
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I agree with you 100% here. Alot of folks think that Ennis has made great progress at the end of the movie. The mailbox, going to alma Jrs wedding, etc etc.
Wrong! moving away from town and living in that trailer is one more step to isolate himself from suspecting eyes. Locking Jacks shirt up in the closet in a shrine may be a sign he accepts Jacks love, but surely not a sign that he will go out and meet a new boyfriend.
Right back atcha. Yes, his closing of that closet troubles me greatly, and on this last viewing I had my moment of revelation at that precise point because it is so troubling. When the screenwriters themselves say that they don't see Ennis getting any further in terms of accepting himself, and in fact see him actually becoming more isolated and more homophobic, and when the creator ends the story with the line, from Ennis' point of view, "But if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it," there's no way to me he would have ever gotten past it. Everyone is free, of course, to interpret it as they may and wish and hope the best for him, but I don't see him as getting any further as far as accepting himself goes. I do like to think of him being a doting grandfather, but that is already in his nature, and of trying harder not to let Alma Jr. and Jenny/Francine down, but that's as far as it goes.
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yeah, even the beginning of the short story takes place years later and Ennis hasn't moved on. He's still in that trailer by himself with dreams of Jack and the tire iron each night. I had wanted a more redemptive ending, but you're right. He doesn't and can't move on.
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Right - Mark Foley himself isn't saying, "Look, I'm gay, and that's why I'm so f***ed up" but the media is absolutely spinning it that way. Have I mentioned lately how much I hate the media rat bastards that do such evil things?
the thing is, there are also other serious issues that's been glossed over. The media only focus on "GAY!!!" In a different state, the 16 year old boys would be at the age of consent, so that blurs the line. We're still talking about a man in his 50's/60's making sexual advance on 16 year olds. Had it been female pages, I'm not sure we'd use the word "pedophile" here. I certainly don't think the media would. Which then leads to another very serious issue that we've not even talked about, sexual harassment in the work place. From Clinton to Folley, these internship system need to be looked at. Protection need to be put in place and so that interns are not even put in the position of having to deal with sexual advances. But no, that'll never happen. The system simply want to blame, not fix the problem.
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Had it been female pages, I'm not sure we'd use the word "pedophile" here. I certainly don't think the media would. Which then leads to another very serious issue that we've not even talked about, sexual harassment in the work place.
Excellent points, Nipith. I've wondered about that first one myself and doubted they'd call it that in that case, too. And yes, it's really disturbing how this stuff keeps going on with the interns. At my company, if an employee got caught harassing other employees like that, he and anyone found covering for him in so doing it would be fired, no ifs, ands, or buts. Our policy on that is very clear, and we all have to retrain on it annually lest anyone forget. Yet our tax dollars are paying for a system that apparently doesn't even try to protect people from it. Lovely.
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Guess my own use of 'pedophile' was as a response & in part my lack of knowledge on whether the media had also used the term. Also, my understanding is that there was no inappropriate physical contact with anyone underage so the term pedophile is not appropriate & hopefully was not used by the media.
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I have not noticed the media actually using the term "pedophile," myself. But I do notice them seeming to try to call him anything else *but* that. Gay, like that's a reason or a bad thing in general; alcoholic/drunk, like that's an excuse; abused himself, like we should somehow go easier on him because of that. And I agree with you guys that pedophile may not in fact be the right term for him. What he definitely is is a sexual harasser. I'll stop short of calling him a sexual predator as there's no proof of him acting on his obsessions. And I think it's safe to say he has a sex addiction problem. To be so obsessed with it as to be sending suggestive messages to the pages while he is voting on the House floor is pretty telling of that. As I keep telling all my friends, I'm just glad he's a Republican! (Sorry. Couldn't be helped.)
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And now I know, too, why my husband who up until that time had never really cried in front of me wept openly when Ennis found the shirts the time he watched it with me.
I had tears in my eyes when I read your last sentence, you are so lucky to have a person beside you who understands you and loves you and I hope this will be a big step forward for the both of you. Your post also made me realise once again why I love my boyfriend so much and why I take every day to show him that in everything I do.
Thank you so much for sharing this, Barb, and I wish you all the best...
Mel
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Barb,
I wish you were here because first I would give you the biggest hug ever! I read this when you first posted, but needed some time to gather my thoughts and write a thoughtful reply.
Like Eric has said, what you get out of this movie is what you bring to it. And part of that is one's willingness to face what one brings to it.
Eric is so wise, isn't he?
There are not words for how sorry I am that you were a victim of sexual abuse. I've seen how devastating that can be for a woman. (One of my best friends was also abused by her brother when she was a child.) I am so proud of you - that you were finally able to be honest with your husband about that awful time. That took an incredible amount of courage and trust. Secrets like that can eat away at your heart and sabotage everything good around you. It is fabulous that you feel like you two are getting a chance to start over. Your husband sounds like a good caring and loving person; from what you said, his response was 100% right. It sounds simplistic, but to my mind, one of the most beautiful things in life is that each day brings us a chance for a fresh start when we need it.
I also think it's wonderful that you feel safe enough here to share something so intensely personal. I don't think there could be any finer testament to the strength of our connections.
Love,
Lynne
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Thanks, Lynne and Mel and everyone else again for your very kind thoughts.
On an aside - and this is nothing that stems from anything anyone has said here - you've all been lovely, as always - but just some random thoughts I've had about it - I don't want or intend to use this revelation as a sort of crutch. Yes, I was victimized. But I'm not a victim. Only we can decide to consider ourselves that. My only mistake was in pushing it all down inside of me for so long to the detriment of my marriage and other important relationships I've had, and to the detriment of my own mental health. But it was an honest and understandable mistake, and I forgive myself for it.
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Barb, sent ya a PM. Hug, Elle
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WOW! Thank you Barb for sharing this! You are a lucky woman to have met Ed!
Until two weeks ago, when we finally had "The Talk" - the one that would determine whether we would separate or not. Yes, it had gotten that bad. Two weeks ago I told him the truth - that in fact it was one of my brothers. And it was for at least three years, when I was between the ages of 6 and 9. All this time, I had rationalized that I should never tell him because I didn't want him to hate my brother. I have a decent relationship with him now - he's even visited us, with his wife at the time, a couple of times here in Florida and he and my husband get along quite well. But I realize it was really because I was ashamed and I worried that he'd think less of me.
What I'm about to say/ask is probably silly, but HOW ON EARTH can you have a decent relationship with your brother now?! Have you two ever talked? What does he say about his acts? Pardon me, I hope I'm not digging too deep.. ehm.. gosh..
When you say you don't understand why you did nothing, said nothing to anybody while it was happening, I have always asked myself that question, why abused children or teenagers don't say anything. I'm not trying to accuse you of anything!!, I just wonder sometimes, because children do seem to know that it's wrong and that that person is doing something bad to them. I know a lot of fear and pressure and angst is involved. Often the abuser is threatening the child with horrible things and I guess when you are a kid, you don't know how to get 'out of' that situation, but damn it! sometimes even the own mother (or other family members) who know, are willingly 'blind' just for the sake of their marriage or of what others might say.. I'm getting angry at this, although I've never experience anything like it, nor have I (consciously) known anyone to whom it happened.. A deep bow to your other brother who found out (how did he find out?) and stopped it all!
And again you are so right - being a pedophile has nothing to do with one's sexual orientation (straight or gay) they are simply sexually attracted to children.
Exactly! I hate it when people don't understand that!
As for Ennis, as much as I hate the idea, but I think too, that closing that cupboard at the end of the film, he does seem to acknowledge his deep deep love for Jack, but I don't think he will have moved on from there. He's probably ending up his life in some trailer or other, isolated and alone, with visits from his children and grandchildren from time to time. .. (I'm using present tence, because I think Ennis is still out there somewhere.. :-* )
Big hug to you Barb and David!
j. U. d. E.
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It's not silly - I'm sure it's hard for many people who've not experienced it themselves to understand why we say nothing. First, he was a father figure to me. He was the only one I trusted (before it started happening) - he taught me to ride a two-wheel bike, tie my shoes, cook, and other things my parents should have done. But my Dad was gone and my Mom was drunk - she started drinking heavily around the time I was five and in kindegarten, and it started happening not long after she became mentally and emotionally unavailable. Second, he threatened me. "If you tell anyone, I'll tell Mom you've been stealing from her." In fact it was he who was stealing from her, but somehow he had me believing he could make her believe it was me and that she would be very angry with me for it.
My other brother caught him in the act. He seemed to do nothing about it at the time, but I learned only in recent years that in fact he beat the hell out of him and told him if he ever even thought about touching me again, he'd kill him. I had always just figured it ended because my brother knew the other one knew.
How can we have a decent relationship now? Well, denial is a very powerful thing. I'm sure if anyone (even I) confronted him about it, he'd call us liars. He's also a raging alcoholic and has a lot of trouble with relationships. His life has always been shite (self-inflicted mostly). I don't give him any allowances for what he did because of that, but it's not like he's living the life of Riley having been a sexual predator as a kid, either. As the song goes, I think he takes his pension in loneliness and alcohol. And there's been my denial as well. It kept me from telling my husband for 18 years, even though he's the one I trust most in the world and the one who is in fact worthy of that trust. It made me hate my other brother for years for not actively doing anything about it when in fact he did, but because we never talked about it until two years ago, I didn't know that.
And when I say "decent," I don't mean we're the best of friends. We're civil to one another and keep each other apprised of events in our family, and he's visited a couple of times with his second wife (hey, I do live in Florida, and it's awfully nice here in February) but that's it. And the reason that much of a relationship came to be is because he was the one who had to find my mother when she had died of a heart attack alone in her apartment in 1992. He had quit drinking for a year and was seemingly finally getting his life together, and then that. He's never recovered from it. Started drinking again later that same day. Still won't talk about it. Has been through two wives since it and is on Number Three. I hadn't spoken to him at all in about two years when he called me to tell me she had died. What can I say? I felt bad for him. I hate him for what he did, but I love him because he's my brother. And like it or not, he and my other brother and I know each other as well as anyone can. I could tell you more stories about our childhood that would make your toenails curl, but I won't inflict any more ugliness on the general populace here.
Sorry if I sound defensive - I don't mean to be. But I do want people who wonder "Why didn't you do something/tell somebody?" and "How can you get along with him now?" to understand the reasons, and to understand how complicated it becomes when you're talking about a member of your immediate family being the abuser.
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Barb, you couldn't have explained it better if you tried.
x
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I am in awe when kids/people DO tell. It may suck, but if it's the only life the kid knows, they can't help but wonder - what if telling makes life worse?
And usually, as Barb is describing, that kind of abuse isn't usually an isolated incident in an otherwise Leave it to Beaver life. Usually there's chaos, fear, distrust, unpredictability that is also going on. Who ya gonna tell, in that kind of situation?
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I am in awe when kids/people DO tell. It may suck, but if it's the only life the kid knows, they can't help but wonder - what if telling makes life worse?
And usually, as Barb is describing, that kind of abuse isn't usually an isolated incident in an otherwise Leave it to Beaver life. Usually there's chaos, fear, distrust, unpredictability that is also going on. Who ya gonna tell, in that kind of situation?
I do believe you hit the proverbial nail on the head, there.
One time, some good friends and I were having some drinks at a party at their house, and we got talking about our dysfunctional childhoods. He says, "Let's see which of us had the most dysfunctional childhood - I bet I've got you both beat." They both come from households where the parents stayed together not because they had to but because they actually loved each other and where money was never a problem. There was some minor chaos, to my mind, for both of them mostly because they both had several siblings growing up. So I said, "Well, let's see, now..." I gave them a little synopsis of A Day in the Life from when I was about seven, not even including my brother's role in it in the least little bit. Their mouths dropped open and he says, "O-KAY. You win."
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Right back atcha. Yes, his closing of that closet troubles me greatly, and on this last viewing I had my moment of revelation at that precise point because it is so troubling. When the screenwriters themselves say that they don't see Ennis getting any further in terms of accepting himself, and in fact see him actually becoming more isolated and more homophobic, and when the creator ends the story with the line, from Ennis' point of view, "But if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it," there's no way to me he would have ever gotten past it. Everyone is free, of course, to interpret it as they may and wish and hope the best for him, but I don't see him as getting any further as far as accepting himself goes. I do like to think of him being a doting grandfather, but that is already in his nature, and of trying harder not to let Alma Jr. and Jenny/Francine down, but that's as far as it goes.
Oh I definately think Ennis will make more of an attempt to see the girls. But I am sure Ennis would never go near another guy like Jack again. Jacks death only confirmed the fears he has carried all along. And if it means he must live alone the rest of his life he will.
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Hello Barbara,
I have only just read this thread; I must say that I was on the brink of tears when I read your OP, Barb. Not because I see you as a "poor victim" (although you were a victim), but because I know the weight of things untold, and I got the feeling I could just touch on the depth of pain you must have gone through.
I too know the problem of having an alcoholic parent, and the utter helplessness and fear as a child when you are alone with that parent. At the age you were then, and knowing the situation (somewhat), I am NOT surprised you said nothing. BUT I am so happy for you that you could finally tell your husband.
To continue on the closing shot of BBM, Ennis closing the door of that closet was what started the immense upheaval in me. I do believe he opens up to more "visible" love with his daughter(s), but in no way does he open up to the world about the feelings is once had for an other man. He definitely remains in the closet. I see Ennis as trapped for the rest of his life.
Unlike you, Barb. (I am still grappling with the Ennis within me).
I am so far from Florida... But this big hug will surely reach you over the big pond. :-*
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Barb and David,
I am just catching up with this thread. Enough have already been said by everyone here. I just want to say that you have my utmost admiration for having the courage to share this, and my deepest gratitude for entrusting us with the thing that you have kept a secret for so long. Nothing to be ashamed of by you. The shame is on the person who inflicted this on you when you were in a more vulnerable position. Be proud that you have given voice to all those who still can’t. It will never get better if we just choose pretending it never happened and don’t ever talk about it.
Hugs to you two! And hugs to Ed, for being a trustworthy and understanding husband/friend, and for crying at the final scene…
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Eric is so wise, isn't he?
Aw shucks. Didn't come directly from me. I learned it all on the boards. But it is true.
This is an OPEN NARRITAVE movie, meaning you are given bits and pieces of the story and it's up to you, the viewer, to add your own experiences and complete it. So, what you bring to the movie is what you take away from it. And since there are many different themes going on in the movie, we all have something different to contribute and to get out of it. It has been interesting meeting everyone at the social events, and learning about how and why the movie affected everybody and why they felt they connected with the movie so much. And everybody's reasons are different. It's facinating the depths and broadness of the many differnet stories and reasons I've heard. It's humbling that this movie has had such an effect...a positive effect because it has helped many people deal with emotions they might not have dealt with if it hadn't been for this movie.
Barb, thank you for sharing your story with us. I am glad you feel comfortable enough and trust us enough to talk about it with us. Big hugs from me too. I hope for the best with you and Hubby... Relationships are difficult, and I think you guys are making some good progress...
And this whole Foley thing was blown way out of porportion by the media. Anything to sell newspapers and TV ratings... People love a scandal, and the press loves to create them.
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And this whole Foley thing was blown way out of porportion by the media. Anything to sell newspapers and TV ratings... People love a scandal, and the press loves to create them.
Ain't that the truth? Brings The Eagles' "Dirty Laundry" to mind. Kick 'em when they're up, kick 'em when they're down. Well, I coulda been an actor, but I wound up here. I just have to look good, I don't have to be clear...
One nation under the new media... As much as I agree with all you've said, I still thank my lucky stars every day that the guy's a Republican.
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Another reason for not saying anything: The first time you mention it, no one believes you. In fact, you’re told not to make things up.
There are folks who’ve said they hate Ennis for what he did to Jack, think Ennis should just ‘get over it already,’ reject what his father believed, etc. I’ve never quite understood that. It doesn’t matter whether he’s 19 or 39 or 80, Ennis is the walking wounded. He had his innocence stripped away. Once that’s gone, you never get it back.
Jack’s love was up against an insurmountable obstacle. I’ll never blame Ennis for being afraid or confused, just wish I could tell him myself “s’all right.”
So true. All you've said. I don't get it when people hate Ennis, either. He breaks my heart, and I just want to rock him in my arms in the end, but I could never hate him. Even if you haven't experienced traumas like he and so many others have, you ought to be able to have some compassion for someone who's been through a horror you can only imagine yourself living through (and wouldn't want to).
"Love and pain become one and the same in the eyes of a wounded child."
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Barb and David,
My heart goes out to you both in admiration for your strength.
something about telling or not telling:
I've had to call CPS for a number of children who've passed through my classrooms over the years. Not once did those referrals happen after a child walked up and said they were being abused. They came after a simple (no prompting) "What's wrong?" when a child flinched every time a grownup came near, or, for one student, after I asked why they were wearing a long quilted coat on a warm spring day. (What that father had done was bad enough that the system did take notice. He went to jail for a long time.)
Other referrals, in contrast, happened after parents (amazingly) volunteered exactly how they were 'disciplining' their child, like having them kneel on cement for hours.
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That's so sad, Lynn. As scary as my childhood was, there were a lot of bad things that weren't done to me. I was never beaten in any way - in fact I don't recall ever being so much as spanked. And my parents weren't the type to yell at their kids. Yelling to this day still really bothers me because I grew up in such a non-verbal household. My Mom wasn't a mean drunk - she just basically drank until she fell asleep, and that happened earlier and earlier each day while I was in school. But she'd wake up again in the evenings, and we'd have a grand old time watching "Happy Days" and "Welcome Back, Kotter!" The worst thing about her being drunk was that she just wasn't present mentally or emotionally for any of us - we basically ended up raising ourselves and for the most part didn't do a particularly good job. I started cooking for my brothers and me when I was five. I could light a gas stove with a match by myself at six. I'm one helluva short-order cook - I can make grilled cheese sandwiches, eggs in a number of different forms, and BLTs with the best of 'em. I think I have the distaste for cooking I have now because I always saw it as a chore that I probably shouldn't have had to have been performing in the first place. When my Mom was with it, she cooked with me and showed me some things - she was a natural and cooked in that Southern style - her chicken and dumplings and sausage gravy were beyond compare. That was fun. Trying to do it alone - not so much.
When I got to college, some other kids there told me stories of the beatings and punishment they received as children that made me almost feel ashamed to have gotten by so easy. And one thing about my Mom - none of us ever doubted her love for us - it was unconditional. She just didn't love herself very much. Or at all. I think we all forgave her at an early age. My father didn't get the same privilege, though. We thought he should have known better - he had all the money and all the power, and he turned his back on us. I forgave him not long ago because he finally admitted it was all his fault. But he hasn't said that to my brothers. And even if he did, I don't know if it'd be enough anymore.
Do you know - I walk by a house here and there in my neighborhood sometimes and a chill runs through me. I know there's something wrong in there, I just don't know what. If anything, I think kids today have it harder than we did. Like I've said, we're even more isolated than ever before. We're prisoners of our own houses - even in Florida, where you can be outside pretty much every day, everyone stays inside. All the time. And sometimes when I do see some kids here and there, I see that wounded look in their eyes I've seen before in my own. I swear, I don't know how to fix this. I guess all we can do is just reach out to the ones around us and show them some kindness - it might just be that little push now and again from a caring adult that gets them through.
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Heavy heavy stories...I grew up with abusive cousins. One a girl, one a boy. Being more inclined to climb trees and play with trucks, I hung around with my guy cousin. He regularly beat me up, thought it was funny to piss on me, force me to do things. I had no where to go either. If I told on him, he would get punished, then come right back and make things even worse for me.
The female cousin was a controlling, denigrating, self-righteous self-esteem angel of death. My sister, now a grown woman, divorced and mother of a young child still has nearly zero self-confidence because of an early childhood of constant putdowns, insults and teasing from her.
Nowadays, we're all grown up. I see these cousins at family get togethers and I can't tell you how much I grind my teeth around them. If I make a passing mention of what happened, they laugh it off, 'Kids, you know!'.
I guess it's a lot easier to blow off when you're not on the receiving end.
It wasn't funny to me then, it sure as shit isn't funny to me now.
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Barb,
I just came across this thread, and it brought me to tears. I don't say much, unless I have to. Sometimes I wish I could protect everyone from things that hurt. You will be in my thoughts.
Adrian
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I get really overwhelmed at this. I was in a store today and watched the mom in front of me in line being very hard on her son, ragging him about a mistake he had made a few minutes before. He was about 4 and he looked so miserable, and at the same time like he just wanted to please her so badly, not out of fear, but out of love. He looked like a sweetheart. So I smiled at her the best I could (because now that I'm a mom, I know how hard it can be to juggle shopping and children) and said, "He feels terrible about it." And she snapped, "Well, he should." Me: "It's tough, my little girl has taken important stuff out of my purse too. They just don't understand how important that stuff is to keep track of, they're so little." The mom was still kind of stomping and grabbing and speaking sharpy, but i saw her pull her son close to her too, on the way out to the car, and that the storm had passed, at least temporarily. She was (very luckily for him and for me) open to hearing my message.
About 20 years ago, I saw a mom in a store kind of droningly browbeating her kid, and I spoke sharply to her and clearly showed I thought she was a bad guy. She seethed at me, "Do you have kids?" "No" "Then mind you're business, you don't know what it's like." She was right, of course, that I had no idea how hard it is to stay courteous when overwhelmed with trying to get through the shopping with a little child. Nowadays, I try to muster a look of compassion toward the overwhelmed and grouchy parents I see, commiserating out loud with them about how hard it is that KIDS ARE TOO LITTLE TO KNOW HOW TO DO ANY BETTER (so it's up to us to be the grown ups, asshole). I try to somehow convey the part in parentheses without letting them know I'm thinking the last word. :)
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God, Del. That's awful. What makes some people such monsters? Are they born or made? I lean a little towards the latter but I'm sure it's a combination of a lot of things. My brother punished me a couple of times, too, when I threatened to tell, but nothing like what your (boy) cousin did.
That reminds me - I saw "Infamous" the other night, and there was a line in it - a soliloquy, really, and spoken by a solitary rancher no less - that was so beautiful. I hope I can do some justice to it. He was talking to Capote and Harper Lee about the murderers, and he said something along the lines of how being good to other people and doing the right thing in life roots you a little more each time to this earth - makes you a part of it. But for some people, a wind blows in that's too strong for them to ignore, and it pulls them out like they're as light as a feather (interesting how they used the earth and wind this time to symbolize similar and yet vastly different things). Once they're taken up by it, there's no coming back down to earth.
We can't fix the ones who've been taken up by that wind, but we can help the ones who are still holding on a little bit, like you did, Elle.
I was in the store a couple of weeks ago with Will and he was stomping on my last nerve, touching everything when I told him not to touch things, asking for everything he saw and not at all politely. I was looking at the drink boxes, getting him some for his school lunches, and he was carrying on about "No! I want the yellow ones! The YELLOW ones!" They were *all* yellow - he likes lemonade, and I was perusing that part of the selection. I just put my head in my hand for a second, as if to say "Give me a minute - I'm asking God to kill me" and I heard this very kind voice say, "I think he means this one." A woman about my age with her little boy, about a year older than Will, was directing me towards one of the seventeen yellow products. I said to Will "Is this it?" He says "Yeah! YAY!" I looked at my savior and said "Thank you." She just said "Believe me, I know." A couple of times I've seen a kid carrying on with his or her Mom in the store and walked by with Will and said, "It's a *fun* age, isn't it?" They've always given me such a grateful look. Just being reminded now and again that your kid isn't the only one who's ever behaved atrociously in public helps.
And thanks, Adrian. You are most kind.
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A couple of times I've seen a kid carrying on with his or her Mom in the store and walked by with Will and said, "It's a *fun* age, isn't it?" They've always given me such a grateful look. Just being reminded now and again that your kid isn't the only one who's ever behaved atrociously in public helps.
Thanks for this story, Barb. Yes, sometimes I'm the mom hanging by not much, and sometimes I'm the smile. I am always grateful to see another kid acting up. we went to a birthday party at the Little Gym the other day, and I was so relieved to see a couple of kids not getting with the program, in terms of following the grop activity. Miranda often marches ton her own drummer, and I usually feel self-conscious.
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Thanks for this story, Barb. Yes, sometimes I'm the mom hanging by not much, and sometimes I'm the smile. I am always grateful to see another kid acting up. we went to a birthday party at the Little Gym the other day, and I was so relieved to see a couple of kids not getting with the program, in terms of following the grop activity. Miranda often marches ton her own drummer, and I usually feel self-conscious.
Oh, man, do I know from that kind of thing. When Will was about 18 months old, I enrolled him in a Gymboree program (kind of Mommy & Me) down here. He was always the *only* kid who was busily going in the opposite direction of everyone else. Didn't want to sit on my lap and clap and attempt to sing like all the other little kids - he just wanted to chase balls around on the mats and roll them down stuff to see what they'd do. The whole time. I was so embarassed. But Ed said "So he isn't a sheep like the rest of them. Just means he'll be an interesting adult later. Screw 'em." The teacher was not very understanding about it, either, so that didn't help matters.
Now, at almost five, he sits in the center of every circle of kids and leads them in song. We took him to a birthday party last weekend where there was a clown (a non-scary female one). She was very interactive with the kids and actually did very entertaining magic tricks. He was right there in the center responding enthusiastically to everything she said and did - he even got called up to assist her with a trick (he was a plant, actually ;)). It'll come. And in the meantime, just remember she'll be an interesting adult later.
Case in point: The photo below is from his third birthday party. I'm doing everything I can to hold him down while they're singing happy birthday to him. Right after that, he took off and the other kids blew the candles out for him.
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid155/p6297328341c58f09aedb638c886d2625/f56cead5.jpg)
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And the threat of “I’m going to punish you for telling” paralyzes you because you cannot imagine what could be worse than what happened in the first place.
Too true. There is no point, either as a child or adult, for abusers to be punished if they are not going to be prevented from contact with those they have victimized.
God, Del. That's awful. What makes some people such monsters? Are they born or made? I lean a little towards the latter but I'm sure it's a combination of a lot of things. My brother punished me a couple of times, too, when I threatened to tell, but nothing like what your (boy) cousin did.
I don't know, barb. I would have thought a bad homelife, you know, the abused becoming the abusers, but from all I can tell, their homelife was just fine. Currently, they are good children to their aged parents, come over and help when they can, run errands, take them to doctor's visits....[shrugs]. It may be all a facade, but how can anyone who isn't on the inside tell?
I can only pray for karma, though your faith can be shaken by the slow response of the gods. Right now, both these abusive cousins are what we would call successful, happy pillars of the community. Both are married to loving caring spouses, are doing well financially, have children who show every sign of being extremely intelligent and doing their parents proud...my sister is divorced, living paycheck to paycheck, has 'let herself' go, is in remission for cancer, recently diagnosed with diabetes and while I maintain my health and a not much better financial situation, there doesn't look like there will ever be any loving spouse in my future.
Life really sucks sometimes, but things could be worse, much worse.
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God, Del. That's awful. What makes some people such monsters? Are they born or made? I lean a little towards the latter but I'm sure it's a combination of a lot of things.
A little piece of information that might interest some of you here: I am reading a book by Lionel Shriver entitled "We need to talk about Kevin". It was inspired by the Columbine killings. The narrator, the mother of a 16 year-old mass murderer in a school, speaks in the first person through letters sent to her estranged husband. I have only read 50 pages so far but am hooked. Among other things, it addresses this big question: is evil innate or not?
I also agree that it is a mixture of both.
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I think we're all born with tendencies towards things. What we experience and how we react to it then pushes us more towards what our tendencies already are. And I think that how each of us reacts to our environment is actually predetermined to a certain extent. Not in a creationistic, fundamentalist Christian way - in a scientific one. Our very genetic makeup dictates how our minds and bodies will react to trauma. And no two people are truly identical, not even identical twins. Because even though they have the same DNA, they can't possibly have exactly the same chemical makeup in their brains and bodies - they can't possibly experience exactly the same stimuli in exactly the same way, and thus the different stimuli each experiences will affect the chemical makeup of each differently.
OK, I'm blathering. But nature vs. nurture has always been a fascinating topic to me. I've seen really compelling cases made for each, but I can't shake the notion that monsters are born, not made. Sure, most if not all serial killers come from abusive childhoods. But so do a whole lot of other people who'd never hurt a fly. Of course, mine is a very troubling notion. It suggests that we can't change a human predator at an early age. But I believe we can. I've seen autistic children cured by hours and hours of intensive therapy weekly for a couple of years. Like Marilyn Manson, of all people, said about the Columbine killers when asked if given the opportunity before it happened to talk with them, what would he say, "I wouldn't talk at all - I'd listen. And that's what no one did." I think I'm fascinated with serial killers because I want to know what exactly makes someone have absolutely no pity and no remorse for his fellow human beings and to think of them as animals that are somehow beneath him? If we could know that - if we could know that there is a turning point in childhood that could be thwarted... Well...
I'm blathering again. I really should get out more.
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I think I'm fascinated with serial killers because I want to know what exactly makes someone have absolutely no pity and no remorse for his fellow human beings and to think of them as animals that are somehow beneath him? If we could know that - if we could know that there is a turning point in childhood that could be thwarted... Well...
I am fascinated by them too, so don't worry about blathering!
My partner is German; his mother was of Jewish descent, and his father found himself in the Hitler's youth at an early age, and on the Eastern front at age 18. So my partner is permanently haunted by what his father may have done, and what he did witness (his father died when he was 12, so he could never ask).
As a German, he still bears the weight of his country's history. Talking of mass murderers, the Nazis, the SS, were one kind. It seems too that the majority of the German people was convinced by the propaganda, that the Jews, the Gipsies, the Russians, gays, were "inferior" human beings, rats that had to be eliminated. It has always made me wonder. This example (what the SS did, and the people's consent at the very least) doesn't seem to have anything to do with an abused childhood, or predetermination. OR, it might well be that we are all predetermined, or rather capable, of evil-doing. The circumstances may or may not make you cross the line.
I read Hannah Arendt's "Eichmann in Jerusalem", and was terrified at the banality of human capacities for evil.
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Interesting (and disturbing) thought. Perhaps we are all evil (or capable of evil) at heart and must will ourselves to do good. Kind of gets into the existentialist dilemma - in a godless universe, if you can get away with atrocities, what's to keep you from committing them? Conscience? But what if you have none? What's so scary about Hitler and the Nazis is that they encouraged ordinary people to be evil, and those people bought it because they were desperate with fear and resentment about their lot in life. What's to keep someone in this country from having that kind of power again? Yes, I know people hate it when one compares George W. Bush to Hitler, and of course it's not gone anywhere near that far. But look at what he's done and is doing - he is able to convince people that they need to vote for him to "protect the sanctity of marriage" and to "protect unborn children." They buy that, not seeing that in fact the state with the lowest divorce rate in this country is the one state that has legalized civil unions - Massachusetts. They buy that, not seeing that by banning stem cell research, letting the assault weapons ban run out, and sending our young men and women to an illegal and unnecessary war, he's killing a whole lot of adult people who are already here. He has encouraged them to be incapable of reason. It's beyond scary.
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I believe it is a little of both. It is scary. Sometimes people that do horrible unthinkable things to other people live next door to you. I think child molestors and serial killers are sick people that can never be rehabililtated. I DO NOT think they deserve a second chance. It amazes me and makes me cringe at what humans can do to each other. There is evilness everywhere. I had a horrible, abusive childhood. I think it made me more sensitive to others. I knew how I had been treated and did not want another human to experience it. My sister on the other hand wallows in it. She can not get over it. It has mad her a sad, bitter and addicted person. So, is it genetics or nurture. We both grew up in the same house treated the same way and both have the same parents. Why did she choose one road and I another. Not sure. I just am glad I chose the one I did.
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I had a horrible, abusive childhood. I think it made me more sensitive to others. I knew how I had been treated and did not want another human to experience it. My sister on the other hand wallows in it. She can not get over it. It has mad her a sad, bitter and addicted person. So, is it genetics or nurture. We both grew up in the same house treated the same way and both have the same parents. Why did she choose one road and I another. Not sure. I just am glad I chose the one I did.
Momo - I can very much identify with what you are saying there. How some can bounce back and use it in a positive way and others just can't seem to, and it effects their whole lives.. the choices they make, the temperament they have, the (bad) boyfriends and husbands they choose, how they can never finish anything, a college course or a book. Unfortunately depression is not a choice - sure, some people choose to make an effort and pull themselves out of depression - others just cannot. Whether its a choice to wallow - I'm not so sure. But you certainly are the luckier of the 2 siblings, thats for sure.
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Thanks Kelda. I do agree about depression. It is unfortunately not a choice. I was depressed for a very long time. I saw it as a weakness and asking for help as an even bigger weakness. I finally admitted that I could not handle everything on my own and did get help. It has made a tremendous difference in my life and the lives that I affect. I think that sometimes negative things from someones past affect them and they do not even realize it. Our past shapes our future in good and bad ways. You just have to take the good and forget the past. I do agree that sometimes it is hard.
hope
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Thanks Kelda. I do agree about depression. It is unfortunately not a choice. I was depressed for a very long time. I saw it as a weakness and asking for help as an even bigger weakness. I finally admitted that I could not handle everything on my own and did get help. It has made a tremendous difference in my life and the lives that I affect. I think that sometimes negative things from someones past affect them and they do not even realize it. Our past shapes our future in good and bad ways. You just have to take the good and forget the past. I do agree that sometimes it is hard.
hope
Glad that you got help and realised that its okay to have this 'weakness' but that you musttry to do something about it to combat it. ;D
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I'm right there with you, Hope. Of my two brothers and me, I'm the one who seems to have emerged the most successful in all areas of life. My eldest brother never went to college even though my Dad offered to pay for it (he was too bitter about my Dad's role or lack thereof in all our suffering), and he struggled through menial jobs for many years before he finally got to a point where he could afford to go to school at night and get ahead in life. And he did do that all on his own, but with great hardships along the way. And he still is embittered against my father and has made a lot of important decisions in his life, like staying in a *horrible* mentally-abusive marriage for years because he so didn't want to be like him and leave his wife and kids to fend for themselves, because of his feelings about his father. The other brother dropped out of high school at 16 and has been in and out of construction and factory jobs all his life. He is a raging alcoholic and sex addict, and he also smokes and eats to excess. He has been married and divorced twice and is engaged to number three. As successful as I have been and as much as I thought I put the ugliness of my childhood behind me, I obviously didn't put it far enough behind me to not have it affect my marriage. Had I continued to opt not to tell my husband about it, we would very likely be separated right now with the future of our small child hanging in the balance.
Yes, what makes siblings from the same household react to what they all experienced so differently? Part of it, I guess, is that no two of us can experience it exactly the same way. And our genetic and chemical makeup, I think, determines how resilient (or not) we'll be. We're each unique in exactly how we experience our environments, physically and emotionally, even if we share the same overall one.
I do think we can raise our children to be more optimistic than not, though. I think we can do that by letting them fail and by not sugar-coating it to falsely build their self-esteem but instead showing them how they can fix it, or if it's not fixable, or how they can do something different that they *are* good at. And by not over-reacting ourselves when we make a mistake or when some little thing goes wrong. Even though I think our chemical makeup largely determines how we'll view the world and react to it, I still think we can help shape our childrens' view to be more positive than not just by showing them we have that view ourselves.
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I agree totally. I did not tell my husband about my past for along time. Once I finally did, I think it really did help. Now he understands alot more. My children know I did not have a good life growing up but they see me now. My sister gets mad at me about the way I handle things with my kids. I want them to understand that they can do anything they want but that they have to work on it. My sisters oldest daughter is just like her and her youngest is just like me. My youngest niece tells me all the time that she is glad she is like me and not like her mother.
My children are like little old souls. To me they have wisdom beyond their years. I tend to be more patient with my children because I can remember my mother screaming at me about everything. My children know that I love them more than the breath I breathe and that I will always be here for them.
I do tell my sister to grow up and get over it. The sad thing is, she never will. I do not think she could survive without all of the drama.
If you can't fix it, you got to stand it. That is my moto. Life is not always fun and games. It takes hard work.
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I do tell my sister to grow up and get over it. The sad thing is, she never will. I do not think she could survive without all of the drama.
Yep. Sounds precisely like the kind of person I call a professional victim. Everything is about them, and everything is someone else's fault. Must be convenient to not have to take personal responsibility for anything. Funny - my oldest niece is just like me (and my oldest brother/her father) and her younger sister is just like my middle brother. They haven't had the most glorious childhood, either. Their mother is positively psychotic and should probably be institutionalized. Fortunately my brother has been a wonderful father to them - wanting so badly not to repeat the failings of his father, he's probably overindulged them a little. Not with possessions and stuff like that - he's had to struggle to have enough money just to survive at times. But with no discipline whatsoever. My oldest niece has always been an old soul and an adult way before her time, so she's been able to discipline herself well enough that she doesn't require anyone else's. My youngest niece is quite a different story. Luckily she's talented athletically and musically, so all her after-school activities keep her out of trouble most of the time. But she's a drama queen extraordinaire, and nothing she does wrong is ever her fault. Again, it's so interesting how two people from the same household and so close in age in their case (they're 11 months apart) can have such vastly different views of the world.
There are a lot of people out there who really thrive on crisis. When they don't have a legitimate one, they create one. I've always been just the opposite. I always felt like the sky was falling when I was a child and I lived in a state of constant panic that I hated. So I've sought out calm situations. Like an Ennis, people who are overtly emotional kind of freak me out to the point that I probably appear cold and unfeeling to the ones who don't know me well. Ed is just the same way, so I've always been very comfortable with him. We laugh all the time, but we don't do much (or any) crying. Or yelling. Or slamming doors. I guess a good crisis makes that other kind of person feel alive - they somehow need the boost of the stress it creates. I generally prefer not to feel like I'm coming right of out my skin.