BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum
Our BetterMost Community => The Polling Place => Topic started by: ednbarby on April 08, 2006, 04:48:53 pm
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Here's another challenging one. I myself can't decide between 4, 5, 7, 8, 10 and 11. My inspiration is the idiotic "reviews" over at Netflix that have been punching my buttons all the livelong day.
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The argument I love to hate isn't there:
"BBM promotes adultery"
I can't tell you how many times that one has been thrown at me... GRRRR!
My response is usually: No, it didn't promote adultery... it clearly shows the tragedy the ensued when Ennis cheated on Jack by marrying Alma.
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My response is usually: No, it didn't promote adultery... it clearly shows the tragedy the ensued when Ennis cheated on Jack by marrying Alma.
That's a really good answer - well done!
-Lynne
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I agree. I hate that one, too. And I agree with Lynne that that's a really good answer. I've updated the poll a bit to include it, along with "It's just liberal Hollywood promoting its gay agenda." Can't believe I forgot that one, too. :P
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I just hate to hear 'it promotes adultery'. To me, I feel there is no way I can explain anything to a person who'll say that; they just don't get it at all. I react strongly to 'they weren't really gay' too.
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I just hate to hear 'it promotes adultery'. To me, I feel there is no way I can explain anything to a person who'll say that; they just don't get it at all. I react strongly to 'they weren't really gay' too.
I hear ya there, Isabelle. I voted for "They had sex too early in the relationship - it wasn't believable" because of all of them, I react the most strongly to that for this reason: You NEVER hear the same person have the same criticism for how quickly Jack and Lureen got it on. Hello - they knew each other a matter of hours. He and Ennis were together, ALONE, in the wilderness for a solid month (two full moons) before they consummated their passion. Like the adultery and weren't really gay ones, I think people who can possibly say that just don't begin to get it at all, and on top of it are holding gay men to a double-standard. Pisses me off to no end.
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I got upset as I leaving and heard this guy behind me with some girls....say
"its nothing more than a bloody soap opera"
wanted to smack him a good one .....!!!
then a good kick in the nether regions with my boots!!
BUt I am not violent..... ;D
hugs
Kea
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Maybe because it was my partner, but:''I saw Hollywood acvors, pretending to be cowboys, pretending to make out, pretending to fall in love."
If a guy tells you he didn't find the acting convincing--what can you day? He just didn't. I'm not respnsibloe for his insanity.
CLICK to enlarge (pretending...)
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I absolutely hate it when people say they only see the adultery.
They cannot see that the adultery happens because these two souls were compelled to prove themselves heterosexuals, evn if their soulmates were of the same sex.
The adultery was not of the character's choices.
Jack married to survive financially and probably because of a shotgun. - oops
and Ennis said that he would marry when he "come" down from the mountain. Obviously he felt another person instructing him from below. - Miss Alma Beers.
I think the movie answers the adultery question with the waitress/bargirl who pursued Ennis and fell in love with him. Ennis refuses to use her as a mask, and purposely ruins the relationship by avoiding her. She will get over it and he will not be commmtiting adulteryw with another female to make a heterosexual appearance.
Ennis tells his daughter that she is 19 and able to do as she likes,
but he couldn't make the choice that his heart demanded at 19.
He didnt take the easier route, just the less scary one.
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Exactly, Toast. Very well-said. And I can't believe I never considered the distinct possibility of a shotgun wedding for Jack. I guess I was just so sure that he made a conscious decision on that dance floor to pursue Lureen to save himself from "nearly starving that year" again, that I didn't put two and two (or one and one and one) together on that one. On the other hand, that kind of thing would certainly seal the deal, wouldn't it? In the story, Jack admits to Ennis that he never wanted any children when Ennis says he would have liked to have a boy (love that, by the way - the thought that Ennis would have liked to raise a boy and give him some of the fatherly love and attention that he never got just slays me). I think that gave me more than an inkling that Bobby was unplanned, but I never thought about it beyond that. Excellent observations, all.
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Hey, y'all. Just wanted to letcha know - a couple of folks have contacted me and told me they'd like to change their votes but can't. I've tried to edit the poll to check the option that allows users to change votes (which I'm sure I had checked when I first created it, but maybe I lost it when I edited the poll to add a couple new and exciting icky criticisms recently?). Alas, that option is no longer even listed as one I can check when I go to Edit Poll. Maybe it goes away after a certain period of time? I'm not quite sure. Just wanted to apologize to anyone who's unable to make a change. :-\
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All the criticism is retarded IMO, but Julie is right, the one that gets me the most is the 'wasn't moved/wasn't convinced' by the acting.
Either you accept the acting and all the rest of it falls into place, but to people who didn't accept the acting, there isn't much you can tell them except to stick to animated movies, because if the tremendous world-wide recognition of great acting didn't reach them, they obviously wouldn't know great acting if it bit them on the @ss.
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I voted for the "unbelievable love" one. For me, BBM featured the most passionate and convincing romance I've ever witnessed unfold on screen.
All of them irk me though...
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I voted for the "unbelievable love" one. For me, BBM featured the most passionate and convincing romance I've ever witnessed unfold on screen.
All of them irk me though...
Agreed. And agreed. They wouldn't live inside our hearts like they do if their love had not been believable. I honestly think that the people who think otherwise have holes in theirs.
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I hate when I read that some people thought it was too slow and boring.
Too slow? How fast should 20 years go by? Geez!
I think most of us just keep craving more of our boys. It could be a 10 hour mini-series and I'd still want more!
;D
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I picked the "overhyped/just OK" response because I just had an old friend, a classmate from graduate school, write me that he found the movie "much ado about nothing"!
I'd slap him if I could reach him. (He's in London and my arm isn't that long. ...)
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I hate when I read that some people thought it was too slow and boring.
Too slow? How fast should 20 years go by? Geez!
I think most of us just keep craving more of our boys. It could be a 10 hour mini-series and I'd still want more!
I hear that, David. It goes by way too quickly for my liking. Has from Day One.
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It is so hard to choose which one is the worst, I almost which there was an "all of the above" choice lol. But of course, everyone would pick that if it was there, thus rendering the poll pointless... *sigh*
(I chose the one about their love being unbelievable, for the record...)
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Good point, there, iheart. (You wouldn't happen to be of iheartjake fame, would ya? ;))
I voted for the "they have sex too early in the relationship..." one because it bugs the bejesus out of me that no one ever makes the same observation about Jack and Lureen. Sure as shite, another ex-friend saw it for the first time Wednesday night and reported that f***ing criticism to me. Picked the wrong person to utter that one to, let me tell ya. Of course I shot back with the Jack/Lureen double-standard response. She had to admit I was right. Must have killed her. Too bad it didn't really. (j/k, of course. Mostly.)
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I get so sick of hearing about the so called 'agenda'.......get over it! y'know?
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Good point, there, iheart. (You wouldn't happen to be of iheartjake fame, would ya? ;))
LOL nope, not me. I love that website, I only wish I had made it! lol
I also hate the "It's just liberal Hollywood promoting its gay agenda" criticism... That one is ridiculous. Oh yes, Hollywood's gay agenda... it's overpowering, gee you can hardly go into a theatre anymore without finding one of those gay movies! If I ever heard someone use that criticism to me, I would want to knock them over the head -- using Crash's Best Picture Oscar.
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Alright, I just heard someone say that they didn't like this movie because there was no message to it. This person thought it was just a love story, that's it, and all that he got out of it was "people are stupid." (I'm supposing this is referring to homophobic society.)
I had trouble responding to that one. At first I was like, "uh, duh." I've always seen the intimacy of the love story in favor of gay-rights themes being one of the films strengths, and still do. I also used Ennis' devotion to his daughters as a sign that this film subtly promotes good parenting.
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On the subject of adultery.....if the adultery is such a big deal then why wasn't there controversy over Walk the Line? Granted its a biopic but one could also argue that Walk the Line 'promotes adultery'.....
So that excuse doesn't fly...
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Most of the negative criticisms that I have read about the movie on various websites, and especially the thinly disguised Southern Baptist one at crosswalk.com, which pretends it is an independent parachurch organization, comes from people who have only heard about the movie and have never seen it.
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Most of the negative criticisms that I have read about the movie on various websites, and especially the thinly disguised Southern Baptist one at crosswalk.com, which pretends it is an independent parachurch organization, comes from people who have only heard about the movie and have never seen it.
This is true. And I'd add this to my list if I could: "Any or all of the above when spoken by someone WHO HASN'T EVEN SEEN IT." GAH!!!!!
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This is true. And I'd add this to my list if I could: "Any or all of the above when spoken by someone WHO HASN'T EVEN SEEN IT." GAH!!!!!
And your quote also applies to the TV talkshow host/comedians who made fun of the move before they even knew what it was about, since they had not even seen it yet.
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Obviously...mine.
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GAH! Just heard from another (ex? ;)) online friend at another forum today that she just saw the movie and thought it was "just another love story, and if it had been about a straight couple, no one would have cared."
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
That's like a combo of two or three of my least favorite criticisms all at once. An Idiot Trifecta, if you will.
I said, "Well, it *isn't* about a straight couple. That's the point. Idiot." (Well, not that last part, but I wanted to. Bad.) I then went on to say that the obstacle in this case isn't just their families or their ethnicity or society - it's themselves. Ennis has had homophobia (and self-loathing, since he is a homosexual) so deeply ingrained in him since childhood by his family and society that he can't overcome it, and that's what keeps them apart and ultimately causes Jack's death, both spiritually and physically. I said that Jack was able to overcome all of that not in small part through the unconditional love of his mother (I figured this ought to appeal to her since she is the mother of two pre-teen boys, and it's the truth), the mean-spiritness and lack of acceptance on all levels from his father be damned. And I said that I'm sorry if she missed that, because that's what makes the movie so powerful.
She had also compared it to Crash (and of course very unfavorably), when no one asked her to. Boy, these Crashies sure feel behooved to defend that movie at every opportunity even when no one was attacking it, don't they? Kinda reminds me of - oh, I don't know - a certain administration? Protest too much... much?
Sorry - just needed to vent. Again.
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Actually, ALL OF THE ABOVE...
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Good god, I hate ALL those reasons! But adultery and Hollywood's gay liberal agenda top the list.
What a great poll idea!
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The argument that angers me the most, the one I've seen mostly on IMDB, is that the love between them isn't real. I get so mad... it angers me more then any of the other fallacious arguments that these homophobes pose.
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The argument that angers me the most, the one I've seen mostly on IMDB, is that the love between them isn't real. I get so mad... it angers me more then any of the other fallacious arguments that these homophobes pose.
I'm with you, Giancarlo. I'd change my vote to that one if I could - I'm the lone ranger who voted for "They had sex too soon in the relationship..." for pretty much the same reason. Talk about a double-standard. I'll say it again: No one *ever* says that about Jack and Lureen, and they only knew each other for a matter of hours before they were, in fact, much more intimate.
And along the lines of what you've posted, I'd like to say to these wizards, "Precisely how would *you* have two closeted gay ranch hands in 1960s Wyoming flirt?"
Dumb ass mules.
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I picked "It's only a big deal because it's about gay guys."
The trolls love to use that one. >:(
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"It's only a big deal because it's about gay guys" was mine, too, David...though all of the above push my buttons. That one seems to suggest you could just plug in a hetero couple and it would be just another tragic love story...never mind little stuff like plot.
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"It's only a big deal because it's about gay guys" was mine, too, David...though all of the above push my buttons. That one seems to suggest you could just plug in a hetero couple and it would be just another tragic love story...never mind little stuff like plot.
I saw somebody over on IMDb once say "..and Titanic is only about a ship".
I don't remember who said it, but I thought it was good! :)
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I voted "they weren't really gay." This motion picture was the ultimate exposition of the closet. In 2500 years of Western theatrical performances, there has never been anything even approaching that subject like this. To say such a thing has to rely on an odd definition of the word "gay."
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ALL those criticisms are annoying -- but if I had to pick I think I'd say the most annoying was the one that whines that it was "slow" and "boring". The entirle first sequence on the mountain, as they were getting to know each other, was paced exactly right for rural Wyoming in the '60s. It was beautiful, and idyllic, and almost like a dream -- before they came back down the mountain to dreary reality.
Whenever someone calls it "too slow", I always know it's some airhead who needs flashing lights and loud noises every five minutes or his/her poor little brain slips into neutral from lack of stimulation. People like that are going to have a lot of trouble in the real world, where there aren't usually exciting car chases to liven things up.
About adultery, I saved a file with a LONG list of movies and famous literature where adultery was a main theme, if not the entire point, but people didn't constantly obsess about their being unfaithful in them. That's just an excuse to condemn it without being blatantly homophobic. And actually, I disliked Alma a lot, I think partly because she was intruding on Ennis's relationship with Jack, making him cheat on HIM.
And the "too fast" criticism is usually levelled by people who just weren't paying attention, for the first half hour, to all the subtle details of flirting and teasing and falling in love. Some people have to have things spelled out for them. And I agree with the opinion posted above that nobody seems to think Jack and Lureen's affair came out of nowhere when they had known each other for mere HOURS, not months. Give me a break. ::)
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And I agree with the opinion posted above that nobody seems to think Jack and Lureen's affair came out of nowhere when they had known each other for mere HOURS, not months. Give me a break.
That was me. *g*
Tom, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship - I swear I found yet another kindred spirit as I read this:
Whenever someone calls it "too slow", I always know it's some airhead who needs flashing lights and loud noises every five minutes or his/her poor little brain slips into neutral from lack of stimulation. People like that are going to have a lot of trouble in the real world, where there aren't usually exciting car chases to liven things up.
Couldn't agree more. And let me add that I immediately cross those people off my list of those whose opinions about movies will *ever* matter to me again.
Nice to know you, Tom Trueman. :)
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All of the lame criticism really irks me, but what really gets my blood to boiling is when people say, "Oh, it didn't live up to the hype." I feel like slapping them! Another one is "The critics only praised it because they saw what happened to Gene Shallit(sp?) and didn't want to be called homophobic." But my absolute least favorite criticism is, "If BBM was about a cowboy and a cowgirl, no one would even care." A friend made the mistake of saying this to me and I countered, "It wouldn't be Brokeback Mountain, moron!" "They weren't really gay," gets me going, also. One person even said, and I find this to be really nitpicky, "There were too many pretty scenes in the movie. I only need one beautiful image. It was overkill." I don't see how anyone can complain about the movie being too beautiful! >:(
Oh, and the adultery issue. It boggles the mind how Ennis and Jack are held to a higher standard. I'm not saying adultery is right, but I can understand why Jack and Ennis cheated. Take the adultery out of a Woody Allen film and there would not be a film!
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But my absolute least favorite criticism is, "If BBM was about a cowboy and a cowgirl, no one would even care." A friend made the mistake of saying this to me and I countered, "It wouldn't be Brokeback Mountain, moron!"
My favorite response to this is, that's like saying if "Titanic" weren't set on a ship that sank, no one would even care.
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My favorite response to this is, that's like saying if "Titanic" weren't set on a ship that sank, no one would even care.
I LOVE it. ;D
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My favorite response to this is, that's like saying if "Titanic" weren't set on a ship that sank, no one would even care.
Exactly! Good one!