BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum

Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond => Brokeback Mountain Open Forum => Topic started by: Artiste on March 20, 2007, 12:33:25 pm

Title: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Artiste on March 20, 2007, 12:33:25 pm
Looking at Jake's father in the movie, guess we all do not think that Jake's  father was gay, being so stern or sad... in it.

However, one or more things may suggest that Jake's father was a homosexual?

Any proof or ideas about this?

Hugs to all!

Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: David on March 20, 2007, 12:51:13 pm
I didn't see him that way.   If anything, he was a hard ass.  Maybe too hard on Jack.  Perhaps that is why Jack took off at such a young age.   Yet Jack did always come back to help on the farm.   

All we know for sure is that he was never able to please his father.   His father never taught him anything.
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Artiste on March 20, 2007, 03:04:18 pm
I do think that Jake's father was gay, a homosexual in some ways... possibly or likely!!
I accent here the word homosexual, for many reasons, one being that GAY was not used then, to my knowledge and experience.


Jake was right in saying what he  did... about his dad. And also knew his father loved him!! That love is evident in more than one way in the film and likely in the novel (by Annie)!!

Other ideas or proofs??

Hugs!


Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 21, 2007, 05:50:50 pm
I agree...and I disagree.

Yes, I agree that Jack's father may very well have been gay. I think he may have been a deeply closeted and self-hating man who saw that his son took after him in that way and hated him for it.

I am a parent, and I can tell you that when you have a child you have to make sure you don't try to have your child relive your life over for you. And you have to keep from bringing all the baggage of your childhood and dumping it on your child.

There are some other hints. Jack's father said, "I know where Brokeback Mountain is." In fact, that was the first thing that he said to Ennis. Also, Jack said his dad was known as a fine bullrider, but he kept his secrets to himself.

So, where I don't agree with you is in the idea of Jack's father loving his child. No, I didn't see that. His mother did love him a lot though!!
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Artiste on March 21, 2007, 06:50:25 pm
Wow! Wow!

Thanks Front-Ranger!

You are enlightening!!

So Jack's father was a gay man, maybe! It seems so.. now!

I am surprised, and not-surprised
... as I felt that!!

Why do you call Jack's father self-hating? Elaborate more please!! You did great... continue if possible.
Why is he self-hating, especially??
...

How did Jack's father know where Brokeback Mountain is? Jack confided to his father and/or mother??

I will add more later or remind me please. Awaiting your thoughts again,
hugs!!



Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 22, 2007, 10:59:40 am
My feeling is that John C. Twist hated himself, primarily because he was a failure as a ranch owner. This was not really his fault because many family ranches were struggling or failing at that time (and still are). And Wyoming is a harsh place to try to have a homestead. Who knows what happened during his earlier rodeo career? All we know is that Mr. Twist left that career. Obviously the elder Twists did not have a happy marriage. And for whatever reason, he was disappointed in his son. He was a man filled with bitterness and hate. There were more men around like that than the other kind, in my experience growing up in a rural area of the Midwest. For many men like that, the American Dream never happened.

Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Artiste on March 22, 2007, 07:05:12 pm
Thanks Front-Ranger!!

Your comment is wonderfully revealing!! In many ways!!

Yes, yesterday was hard for Mr. Twist!! And if his son to-day would be alive,
he would be likely worst off!! I say... as more and more persons, it seems to-day, do
NOT care about ranchers, as they think food comes like magic!! Most people do not care less...??

Multi-national cos are now killing more and more our farmers...ranchers, as these cos are being run by criminals
who do not care about life nor about cows, chickens, fish, bulls, etc., nor a tomatoe !!

For example, these multi-nationals have killed both my grand-fathers jobs; grand-father had a potatoe farm winning world prizes for great pure food, but the big co. came in and killed all the potatoes and did not pay grand-dad apenny! My other grand-papa was a bucheron, yes I am not ashame to say that as he was too a proud man for nature, being an lumberjack, woodcutter.... but that same multi-national killed all the trees!! The first USA spacemen (to prepare themselves for their moon trip) came here as both my grand-fathers areas were now like on the moon!!

As I am still upset because of this, I will end this now and come back later. (This is NOT your fault Front-Ranger!)

Now the Earth is being killed!!

Was not Jack's father's farm somewhat like the moon?? And Jack sought help to help his parents and himself with partner-to-be?? Jack would be hurting more than his dad, even if he had a partner, likely so I say because criminals continue more to run off ranchers... farmers?? What do you think?

Am happy with your comments in many ways Front-Ranger, and await more from you please,

hugs!


Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 24, 2007, 11:44:16 pm
It is interesting that you say that the farm was like the moon, Artiste. Because that is sort of how I've seen it...I haven't seen it in the summertime with the grass growing high...but it is a forbidding and austere place. A high plain, with a lot of volcanic rocks all around. When you're there, you feel uncomfortably close to the sky, almost pressed between the earth and the sky.

One thing that struck me tonite...Jack was playing his harmonica, even though it was flattened. And he came from Lightning Flat. But the flattening things that had happened in his life did not deter him from following his dream and going to Brokeback Mountain.

Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Artiste on March 25, 2007, 01:00:28 am
Thanks Front-Ranger!!

Your two paragraphs are wonderfully great!!

The Earth is indeed becoming like a moon... dying; Jack's death is forbidding in a way, because he could not live his gay life (not happily, except those rare occassions) nor continue it! Maybe he can be considered like a moon around Ennis?? There is some poetry created here by Annie!! She does says that she thinks daily about Ennis and Jack!!

As you know: Ennis is indeed liike a moon, being so austere and standing that is his life, weather he likes it or not, too!!

Both Ennis and Jack's lives are too uncomfortable for themselves mainly in their situations as the human condition;
luckily some confort as they found each other and love they cherish as best they can!!

Forbidden love... between two men!! That is most of the world then and is now too!!

I know about volcanic rock, like you say you saw there in Wyoming, as I live on a volcano edge, top mountain... and austere is was made and humans are making it again a heaven now with trees and lakes; criminals who burned the then rich farms here in the valley inside the crator, and burned all the trees, do NOT help Nature nor other humans!!
You do feel like you are between earth and sky, like you say!! The pressures of both Ennis and Jack is pressing them too!! Pray this is not too poetic!! I love your description!!

...

Yes, you are right about the harmonica; Jack could play it better when he was younger, when he fell in love with Ennis; but that flat harmonica... tells his sad future, the sad notes of his coming life!! ?? Jack continued, as you say, luckily to to try to reach his dream and Borkeback Mountain helped him and Ennis!!

Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: brokebackjack on March 25, 2007, 05:40:08 am
It is complete speculation, leading nowhere, if we wonder whether or not John Twist Seniour was a homo.


Just think of him as The Dick.

It works.
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Artiste on March 25, 2007, 02:07:46 pm
Thanks brokebackjack!!

If John Twist was and is a homosexual (gay man), is a reasonable and maybe provable question!!??

It is an important question for me!!

And surely to many or some others... I think!!

I do not know why you think that, nor if only that (your comment)!!

Awaiting your news,

hugs!!
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: brokebackjack on March 25, 2007, 02:23:13 pm
Artiste, i think that with the facts as we know thgem, in both SS and film, it's virtually impossible to say anything EXCEPT the following:

John Twist was a Dick.

He was miserable, cold, vicious; in the book there the tone of how Mrs twist moves leads ME to believe he was a wife beater. He was a child abuser. he was, all in all, one of the most miserably memorable characters ever written.

But gay? I see nothing to imply he was gay except for one line which can be taken 2 ways:

"I know where BBM is."
1--either he knew where BBM was and could bring the ashes himself

or

2--he'd had gay sex thereand/or knew about gay sex.

That latter assumes that the average cowpoke was willing to get poked by Satan himself. I refuse to believe that as the average cowpoke who likes men tends to  have better taste.Also, Wyoming cowboys who like guys tend NOT to be very kinky....least the ones I know. Kinkiest Wyo cowboy I know thinks he's BAAAAD because he likes to do it in the water. John Twist--according to another one I know personally--was likened to impaling oneself on a " a nasty Bull and go tell that tale, I'd rather do a sheep."

Me/ I think he was A Dick. There is none but slight evidence that he was gay. I never thought that. I DO think he wascompletely repulsive, AND a .....
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Front-Ranger on March 25, 2007, 02:30:24 pm
One thing that struck me tonite...Jack was playing his harmonica, even though it was flattened. And he came from Lightning Flat. But the flattening things that had happened in his life did not deter him from following his dream and going to Brokeback Mountain.

...and he died, his wife said, while pumping up a flat tire.

Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Artiste on March 25, 2007, 03:21:56 pm
Thanks brokebbackjack!!

I appreciate your reply, very much!!

Not only are you talking if he was or not a gay man, you are raising many questions about Mr. John Twist!! Am glad that you are!!

1. First of all, you call Mr. John Twist: a dick!! Capital D: Dick!! Wow, wow!! You express this stating that your are very, very negatif against him!! You surprise me with this name: Dick!! You give me some ideas and/or proofs as to that... yes. Just still puzzled as to why you express so vehemently that!!?? You are venting that?? I am happy that you know about him!!

2. I am glad that you are giving me clues about such a person or that person (Mr. Dick)!! I do not know that much yet about Mr. John Twist. Happy that you are quoting or decide that he could very well be many things... too!!

I agree with you that John Twist was miserable!! Even, very sad, if I may add??

However, was he a monster?? Was he liike some monsters who kill many gay men (or straights men), youths and/or boys, and/or women?? He was likely not a mass murder, thank goodness!!

You qualify John Twist as cold!! There seems to be only two evidence of that?? And what is cold?

And you say too vicious!! Wow, wow!! That is harsh!! Likely one or more evidence of  that too?? To qualify vicious like what?? He did not kill... but he was a wife-beater?? Could be... any evidence of wife-beating?? You give an example already!! Movie seems to show that, Annie's book too??

As to John Twist being a child abuser, I wonder about that too.

It would be great to get advice from experts here. And also to get sample cases. And how to help such person, if possible.

There is maybe a lack of respect by Mr. John Twist towards Ennis, (and maybe same time towards Mrs. Twist) that we think as viewers, when we see Ennis sees for the first time Mr. and Mrs. John Twist after Jack's death!! ?? At least, this seems evident maybe in the movie!!

Indeed you are right that Mr. John Twist is a memorable character!! All those negatives about him you mention, is impressive too! I did not mean to answer that long. Will answer more... if you like when you want me too do so; just remind me.

For now, am surprised that I wrote this much; again, thanks, and I await your comments, keep care,

hugs!!

Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: brokebackjack on March 25, 2007, 04:25:54 pm
Well--let me see: a Dick is a term used in the US to describe an all around...dick. A louse. miserable. no good. etc.

in the SS Mrs Twist moves slowly, like someone recovering from an operation. In the context, most think she was an abused wife. Some do not. However the majority seem to believe this.

Any man who urinates on a 4 year old to teach him a lesson is both  a child abuser and completely disgusting on a global scale of child abuse. John Twist is a proven and remarkably repulsive sadist. For the same man to make that 4 year old put on the pajamas which were removed from him so he could CLEAN UP THE URINE at age 4 or any age is an abomination which to my mind makes John Twist EARN the sobriquet 'DICK' as the most minor thing one can call him .

I may be wrong but your syntax seems French. Have you heard, and understood the tone of voice and manner John Twist uses towards EDM in the English version? [I may be wrong but I smell the blooming chestnuts of April in Paris from the phrasing of your reply LOL Forgive if I'm wrong here! Vive la France!]

His behaviour towards EDM is so horrific that even in the script, the screenwriters say Ennis cannot get away from this terrible old man fast enough.

Last but not least, there are  enough  people around combining gay person [which is fine] with repulsive gay person[ which is not fine]. I would  like to spare the gay men of the planet having John Twist numbered among them. They do not deserve it. Nor do straight people, but the alternatives are bisexual--which, as a bisexual, I  refuse to contemplate or accept lol--lesbian--which women worldwide refuse to contemplate or accept--or transgender...which is simply bizarre and grossly unfair to transgendered people.

And besides---to make John Twist out be a closeted gay male in WYOMING is an awful idea...I LOVE Wyoming, Wyoming does not deserve him.

I find no genuine evidence for John Twist as a gay person.I find plenty to brand him as an abomination of a man.

If you think I am hard on John Twist go visit the film threads on cullen roflmao. I will seem.....sweet.

yes, that says it well. I will seem.....sweet! :o ;D
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Artiste on March 26, 2007, 12:57:51 pm
Thanks brokebackjack!!

Wow, wow!! Your comments are indeed assertive!!?? I find them interesting!! And am grateful that you are expressing them!!

Glad that you like Wyoming!! Wyoming does not derserve John Twist nor want him... as you say, nor want Ennis's father, nor any murders of gay men simply because they are gays, if I may say. The murder of that gay young man was needless, but it was a murder by two... peers?? (I forget his name, and I think a movie on TV I saw about it, as I know it made headlines in the USA, Canada... and likely in many countries; it still does in many places, even in Europe.) I do not want any murders in the USA, Canada, nor elsewhere!! I think needless murders of gays because they are gays as a reason, do happen and too often as far as I am concern and this is increasing unfortunately... and will increase!! I find it too unfortunate that many such murders and maybe most are either unsolved, or no one wants to solve them; and, no one goes to jail for it most times nor get hung by a rope or same way they killed; I know of one case... where one of the two murderers got away from spending a day in jail; the judge had to let him go... as the jury claimed he was thruthful (( a bit like the Simpson case remember but this one did say he was there in the murder scene!!), but as far as I am concerned he should have been jailed a long time for many reasons!! Plus, the ones (4 at once who tried to kill me), got away with it too, and the police did not even take finger prints as the police could have as I left broken glass, wood, etc., for days for them to do so!!

For now, I will just take one sentence from your comments:
His behaviour towards EDM is so horrific that even in the script, the screenwriters say Ennis cannot get away from this terrible old man fast enough.
...

If you are talking about the scene where Ennis enters Mr. and Mrs. Twist's house for the first time after Jack's death,
then I do NOT agree that Mr. John Twist is horrific, not to that point of using that word!! Not when I look at the movie!! Stern in the movie was John Twist to Ennis, yes but not horrific.

I must check the screen script to see that: may I ask you to provide me those lines then and is that word horrific used by the two screenwriters??

I do find that the scene of the murdered body of that gay man who was in the gay couple relationship or marriage, that is horrific indeed!! Plus the scene of Jack getting killed by murderers, that is horrific!! Mass murders and single murder... are always a horrific events to me; even self-defence to save one's life as I had was filled with horror!!

Scene of Mr. Twist, talking to Ennis is indeed overwhelming, in many ways!! Owerpowering too?? For whom, by who, for us viewers too???

Having looked at the movie (only twice as a whole one), I did NOT find Mr. John Twist horrific!! Harsh maybe?? Stern, yes!! Sad, terribly sad yes!! I do think that Ennis deserved to be told off by Mr. John Twist!! Do you??

Anyway, I wait your news,

hugs!!

Note: I will try to seek the film threads on cullen roflmao... remind me.

I still think the question of Mr. John Twist could have been or is gay (homosexual), an important one!!

Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: brokebackjack on March 26, 2007, 05:48:53 pm
I think he was a walking nightmare. The words used by the screenwriters are 'this terrible old man'

He treated Ennis like nothing
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Artiste on March 26, 2007, 06:41:09 pm
Thanks brokenbackjack!!

You say that Jack's father was described as this terrible old man by the screenwriters??

Hugs!!

Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: RossInIllinois on March 27, 2007, 11:44:11 pm
Thanks brokenbackjack!!

You say that Jack's father was described as this terrible old man by the screenwriters??

Hugs!!



The way I see it  Jack Twist sr loved his son. He refused to give him up to the Mountain and that proves that to me. I think what you saw in the movie was a "broken man" un happy with his life with no way out thats all. Holding on to Jacks ashes was the only power he had left.
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: brokebackjack on March 28, 2007, 02:51:14 am
I think we saw exactly what the screenwriters wished to convey, which was exactly what Annie Proulx conveyed: A terrible old man.

He didn't give a damned about jack or Jack's ashes. He knew what his son wanted and refused it.It was the mother who cared.

And he refused....because he wanted to. And was 'a terrible old man.'
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: David In Indy on March 28, 2007, 03:06:46 am
I wonder.

Seriously.

Since when did you know a GAY MAN to hocker into a spitoon?

It just ain't natural, I tell ye!  :P

Nope! No decent gay man would EVER do such a thing.
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: brokebackjack on March 28, 2007, 04:32:44 am
lmao

true

I have never known a gay man to spit into anything except a handkerchief....except for gay construction workers who spit on the floor.

but  a cup at dinner table, what a faux pas!
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Artiste on March 28, 2007, 12:26:53 pm
Thanks Ross In Illinois!

Your comment and description of Mr. John Twist (Jack's father) is endearing, I find!!

Your words:
The way I see it  Jack Twist sr loved his son. He refused to give him up to the Mountain and that proves that to me. I think what you saw in the movie was a "broken man" un happy with his life with no way out thats all. Holding on to Jacks ashes was the only power he had left.
...

I think that too as you do!! Do you think that Jack's father is trying to hold on too to Ennis ??

Awaiting your news,

hugs!!
 
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Artiste on March 28, 2007, 12:32:30 pm
Thanks brokebackjack!!

Your comment is difficult for me!! I am not an expert as you are in this, so I re-read your thought:
He didn't give a damned about jack or Jack's ashes. He knew what his son wanted and refused it.It was the mother who cared.

And he refused....because he wanted to. And was 'a terrible old man.'
...

You say that Jack's father knew what Jack wanted?? What do you mean... please describe that??

Hugs!!
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: brokebackjack on March 28, 2007, 03:24:02 pm
Well, Jack's wishes as expressed to his wife were that he be not buried, but cremated. Because Jack had told her that, SHE had sent half of those ashes up to his family in Lightening Flat, telling them that Jack wanted to have those ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain.

Lureen kept half of Jack's ashes in Texas, erecting a 'grave stone' for her husband in Childress.

This is why Ennis visited the Twists, who knew through Lureen what Jack wanted. He wanted to express sympathy to his parents, and take the ashes to scatter on the mountain, giving Jack his final wish.

The old man bitterly and angrily refused, denying his son's  wish; even after death, Jack did not get what he wanted. Even dead, he had 'it' taken from him.

The entire scene is a total emotional devastation...
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Artiste on March 28, 2007, 07:03:25 pm
Thanks brokenbackjack (I was going to say Ennis! Wow!)

As your description is very understandable, I am very pleased to read it, and thanks very much!!

You say this concerning Jack's father when he refuses Ennis's first visit after Jack's death:
The old man bitterly and angrily refused, denying his son's  wish; even after death, Jack did not get what he wanted. Even dead, he had 'it' taken from him.
...

Do you think that Ennis went back a second time and asked for some or all that the Twist's parents had of the half of Jack's ashes??

Dare I ask?

Hugs!!

Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: RossInIllinois on March 28, 2007, 07:48:49 pm
Thanks Ross In Illinois!

Your comment and description of Mr. John Twist (Jack's father) is endearing, I find!!

Your words:
The way I see it  Jack Twist sr loved his son. He refused to give him up to the Mountain and that proves that to me. I think what you saw in the movie was a "broken man" un happy with his life with no way out thats all. Holding on to Jacks ashes was the only power he had left.
...

I think that too as you do!! Do you think that Jack's father is trying to hold on too to Ennis ??

Awaiting your news,

hugs!!
 


Im not sure if Jacks father was trying to hold on to Ennis but the Twists were welcoming of him for sure. The old man might even have been slightly bitter to Ennis for not coming to his ranch and making a home there with his son. The fact they let him take Jacks belongings without question tells me they knew the situation quite clear. He was also asked to come back any time.  ;)
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Artiste on March 28, 2007, 08:33:20 pm
Thanks RossInIllinois!!

I do agree with you that Mr. John Twist likely had wanted that Ennis come before that time, with Jack at Mr. and Mrs. John Twist's home!! I think that!

You say:
Im not sure if Jacks father was trying to hold on to Ennis but the Twists were welcoming of him for sure. The old man might even have been slightly bitter to Ennis for not coming to his ranch and making a home there with his son. The fact they let him take Jacks belongings without question tells me they knew the situation quite clear. He was also asked to come back any time.
...

I say that it could very well be that Mr. John Twist wanted to hold on to Ennis, because he knew that Ennis was a decent man who had and still love his son Jack Twist!! That was John Twist's way of telling Ennis off, man to man, of not having come to stay with Jack at the Mr. and Mrs. John Twist's home, in order to make it his home too as two lovers, maybe?? Mr. John Twist does stress this, it seems to me, that Jack had said that he wanted to Ennis to come, that must have been mentioned to Mr. and Mrs. John Twist many, many times by Jack in those 20 years!! ??

You are right that both Mr. and Mrs. John Twist let Ennis leave with Jack's belongings like wiht that shirt, was it?
They either or both could have refused that
Ennis brought back with him either of the shirts!!

As civil as they were, Mr. and Mrs. John Twist did allow Ennis into the house, even upstairs alone in Jack's room!! That to me was a lovable act by both of Jack's parents, since they knew that Jack and Ennis were best pals, working buddies, and likely too as known lovers!! The movie scene seems to indicate that by all the actors!! Does Annie's story do so to that extent??


Awaiting your news,

hugs!!
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: brokebackjack on March 28, 2007, 09:18:54 pm
Im not sure if Jacks father was trying to hold on to Ennis but the Twists were welcoming of him for sure. The old man might even have been slightly bitter to Ennis for not coming to his ranch and making a home there with his son. The fact they let him take Jacks belongings without question tells me they knew the situation quite clear. He was also asked to come back any time.  ;)
Ross, look at the scene again; as Ennis passes by Jack's father he withdraws the shirts AWAY from John Twist in fear that he might say NO, you can't have them.. The mother nods-- she set it up, knew those shirts were in the closet. The closet door was also opened FOR Ennis as if she was leading him to the shirts. Plus, SHE invited him to go to Jack's room, not the father who denied him a wish as expressed by his dead son's own WIFE. Why? Because he didn't WANT to. Look also at what Mrs Twist is wearing; her clothes are a deliberate echo of the colors, etc., of Jack and Ennis' Brokeback shirts...and she had a look of what could only be describes as horror as her husband meanly denied his son's wish to rest on Brokeback. SHE told him to come again, not the father.

Whatever his motive, this is the same man who urinated all over his own son at age 4. He has lost none of his angry meanness. None of it. Some forget, if they had come to that ranch they would have been doing him a FAVOR and it's quite obvious he would have accepted the help while making it as unpleasant for both as possible. That comes through in short story AND film, loud and clear.
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: RossInIllinois on March 28, 2007, 10:30:22 pm
Ross, look at the scene again; as Ennis passes by Jack's father he withdraws the shirts AWAY from John Twist in fear that he might say NO, you can't have them.. The mother nods-- she set it up, knew those shirts were in the closet. The closet door was also opened FOR Ennis as if she was leading him to the shirts. Plus, SHE invited him to go to Jack's room, not the father who denied him a wish as expressed by his dead son's own WIFE. Why? Because he didn't WANT to. Look also at what Mrs Twist is wearing; her clothes are a deliberate echo of the colors, etc., of Jack and Ennis' Brokeback shirts...and she had a look of what could only be describes as horror as her husband meanly denied his son's wish to rest on Brokeback. SHE told him to come again, not the father.

Whatever his motive, this is the same man who urinated all over his own son at age 4. He has lost none of his angry meanness. None of it. Some forget, if they had come to that ranch they would have been doing him a FAVOR and it's quite obvious he would have accepted the help while making it as unpleasant for both as possible. That comes through in short story AND film, loud and clear.
I disagree, The shirts were placed in the bag right in front of old man Twist, The movie bends things a little. Go read Annie Proulx's short once again for that's the true version of the story.  ;)

http://home.earthlink.net/~chicagoblt/broke.htm
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: brokebackjack on March 29, 2007, 03:08:59 am
Interestin, I read it this morning but hadn't seen the NY version in some time. Makes me wonder how big a fit she had when she saw it and realised they forgot to print the prologue LOL.


I think SS and film have to be taken separately and then together, each on its' own merits.


 And, if AP herself thought the film brought what she intended to life, who am I to disagree?
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: RossInIllinois on March 29, 2007, 11:27:32 am
Interestin, I read it this morning but hadn't seen the NY version in some time. Makes me wonder how big a fit she had when she saw it and realised they forgot to print the prologue LOL.


I think SS and film have to be taken separately and then together, each on its' own merits.


 And, if AP herself thought the film brought what she intended to life, who am I to disagree?

For myself, once I read the short the film seems very "watered down" and kind of "Hollywooded up" although still a good adaptation.
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Artiste on March 29, 2007, 11:29:15 am
Thanks brokenbackjack and RossInIllinois

In those times of Ennis and Jack, there was no discussion about if Jack's father was a gay man (a homosexual). I think that in most countries even to-day (maybe even everywhere), if one is or is not a gay man, is still not a discussion!! But many will kill you if think think that you are!! - I say!!- as Although, many think that a gay man should and must be killed even!! A gay man has no right to talk neither, it seems to me!! Iran and other countries kill gays, for instance, line them up even, and they are shot by the government!! Because it is viril to kill anyone?? We are still in the cave days in 2007, I say!! Even on this site, most do not ask themselves: could Jack's father be a gay man!!?? Taboo is still this as a subject!!??

I am a gay man, I have lived in many places in the USA, I have lived in many places in Canada; I could never talk to most people about gay life (not even to gays!!), nor about mine nor about others being gay, too too rarely so, as this subject even seems to be a taboo in the gay communities too or somewhat so!! Even to-day, most gay sites on the internet, gay men talk about penises or frivolous subjects if I may say, not about real life of being a gay man!! So to ask oneself, or is/was your father a gay man, is absolutely rare a subject!!??

As somewhat in Annie's story, there is a law of silence (do not talk about gay life and do not ask if your father is gay, etc.), then and to-day!!?? I am not queer, says Ennis!! I am not neither, replies slowly Jack!!
That bothers me, as a gay person!! It is true that I heard that word queer, ih those days and still do,
not just by straights, also by gays - which puzzles me!! Why??

No one is even strong enough to dare ask about pedophia!!?? No one can!!?? It was too in the USA and Canada, that homosexuals were considered only pedophiles - not that long ago, and many still do that or think that!! Thanks goodness that we (gay persons I think it was) asked the journalists (newspapers writers and others) not to use that word concerning adult men having sex (etc.) with other adult men!! Most countries still think homosexuals are pedophiles, it seems so as even presidents of certain countries say so as they think so, being ignorants!!

The question I am asking, (is) Jack's father gay?, I think a respectable question that needs to be addressed in many ways yet!!??

Is Annie asking: is Jack's father a gay man, maybe she is asking that?

Thanks to all as all comments have been great!! Welcome to continue to talked about this, etc.,

hugs!!


Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: RossInIllinois on March 29, 2007, 11:41:26 am
I don't feel the short or the move hints at all that Jacks father might be gay just angry and broken IMO. This would have taken away the focus of the story line.
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Artiste on March 29, 2007, 11:48:31 am
Thanks RossInIllinois!

You are right!!

However, there are underlined secondary plans that Annie talks about??

I feel that: Jack's father being maybe a gay person, is one.

It seems to me that Annie does take that as a subject!

Do you think?

Hugs!!
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: RossInIllinois on March 29, 2007, 06:37:02 pm
Thanks RossInIllinois!

You are right!!

However, there are underlined secondary plans that Annie talks about??

I feel that: Jack's father being maybe a gay person, is one.

It seems to me that Annie does take that as a subject!

Do you think?

Hugs!!

Hmmm I don't really see it that way but I could be wrong.   :)
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Artiste on March 29, 2007, 11:09:10 pm
Thanks RossInIllinois!!

There are secondary subjects that Annies takes seriously, and others maybe she just hints or starts at it,
it seems to me.


Jack's father was a gay man? May I take this question in another way? Like do you feel that Annie talks about LOVE mainly or HOMOSEXUALITY?

Hugs!!
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: David In Indy on March 29, 2007, 11:15:33 pm


Jack's father was a gay man? May I take this question in another way? Like do you feel that Annie talks about LOVE mainly or HOMOSEXUALITY?



I think Annie talks about love from a homosexual viewpoint. And she did an amazing job.

Just my 2 cents!  :)
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Artiste on March 29, 2007, 11:23:16 pm
Thanks David!

Your comment seems so to most readers or viewers of the movie, maybe??

You say:
I think Annie talks about love from a homosexual viewpoint. And she did an amazing job.
...

I will not disprove that Annie does not do an amazing job. Concerning your other line, I am questionning that!!

I would appreciate you answering this question:
Jack's father was a gay man?

Hugs!


Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 30, 2007, 11:55:24 am
For myself, once I read the short the film seems very "watered down" and kind of "Hollywooded up" although still a good adaptation.


To me the mainHollywoodized aspect is that Ennis and Jack went from raunchy, unattractive characters in the SS to the obviously top tier good looking young men audiences line up for.

Other than that, I think Lee did a better job at communicating the essense of the relationship than the book alone was able to do. The integration of the sound track, Ledger's unbelievablely superb verbal and non verbal expressions and communications, and Lee's magically real ability to establish scenes that crystalize and propel meaning far outperformed the style Proulx uses, to me.
Title: Re: Jake's father was a gay man?
Post by: Artiste on March 30, 2007, 08:25:05 pm
Thanks HerrKaiser!

You say this:
To me the mainHollywoodized aspect is that Ennis and Jack went from raunchy, unattractive characters in the SS to the obviously top tier good looking young men audiences line up for.
...

If you read Annie, in the last paragraph, yes after Ennis says I swear, he sees Jack as bucktoothed!!

Did anyone see Jack being bucktoonthed in the movie, done by Hollywood??

Therefore, to show in the movie that Jack's father could have been also a gay man, would have been too Hollywoodish?? Or is it the opposite as an Cinderella story as Lee wanted and/or the two main screenwriters wanted it to be as a Hollywood love story, Romeo and Juliette ??

Replies from you and others are welcomed...

hugs!!