Can you add in Jimbo? He pisses me off. He and his buddies at the pool table. I know the hate crime perpetrators would be the obvious choice here so it's fine not to include them. But if Jimbo were there, he'd be my number one least favorite. I don't like that way he looks at Jack. John Twist is a mean old man who never properly appreciated or loved his son, but we have no evidence that he's particularly homophobic. In fact he might have even been willing to have Jack and Ennis live together up there if it meant getting his sorry-ass ranch licked into shape. Given the choices now, though, I went with John.
And I've got no problem with Cassie - she certainly had impeccable taste, and she was just trying to do the best she could.
And I've got no problem with Cassie - she certainly had impeccable taste, and she was just trying to do the best she could.Maybe, but would I know someone like her, clingy, forcing me to do things I do not like (dancing or other), too pushy, upsetting my personal bubble - I'd run! :o
And I've got no problem with Cassie - she certainly had impeccable taste, and she was just trying to do the best she could.
Agreed. She's a bit forward and bold, but she's got a good heart, and gave Ennis some of the attention and affection that he deserved and, I suspect, needed. Cassie is easy on the eyes in her own right, and she and Ennis would make a nice couple in terms of how they look together. And how I would like to be Cassie nestled against Ennis on that barroom dance floor!
And I've got no problem with Cassie - she certainly had impeccable taste, and she was just trying to do the best she could.
She put her tired, smelly feet in Ennis's lap and asked him to rub them. That is never ok - not under any circumstance.Pretty bold, to be sure, and it's not the kind of thing most folks, I assume, would do. But Ennis actually seems pleased (or pretends that he is pleased); note the wry little smile on his face as he complies with Cassie's request.
. And how I would like to be Cassie nestled against Ennis on that barroom dance floor!
Scott M.
Can you please set up your poll so I can change my vote? (And could I be any more annoying? Crap - I'm vying with Cassie, aren't I?)
- Oh, what the heck, dang it---BOBBY F-ing TWIST! 'Next two weeks'?!? That's right, little 'Weird Child from Anywhere but Texas'.... Why, I oughta...... >:(
That's a good point, Clarissa. However, Fayette redeemed herself in my eyes a tad when she smiled at Jack when he stood up for her daughter at Thanksgiving. The first time he shuts off the TV, before he and L.D. have at it, she flashes a subtle little grin his way as if saying "Thank you."
But if we're talking about people who piss us off for being insensitive, I gotta go back to Jimbo. And really he's more sinister than his little scene allows, because he and his pool-playing buddies are the foreshadowers of what's to come 20 years later. I really wanna smack his smug little face for looking at Jack like that in that bar. Hard.
I've never noticed that smile, Barb. I'll watch for it next time. That would be redeeming.
As for Jimbo, my take on him has always been that Jack was right about him - that he is gay. But Jack was foolish enough to do his flirting right in front of the bartender, and Jimbo himself felt at risk of being outed and harmed. It always seems like he plays all his lines for the bartender's benefit, to make clear that he ain't queer.
And it looks to me that Ang Lee deliberately made Jimbo's conversation with his pool buddies deliberately ambiguous. You could look at it and see him telling them what Jack had just said, and then you can watch it again, and they are all just talking about any old something innocuous. Very effective. And just the sort of head-messing confusion that gets Ennis so paranoid later on (maybe rightly and maybe needlessly, we never find out).
He was probley too busy scouting for gays
Cheers for adding your 10 cents TJ! :)
I just decided to remove K.E. del Mar from the list, he was just as messed up by their abusive father as Ennis was ... I sometimes wonder about Mrs. del Mar, what was she like? How did she treat her sons? Was she basically living in the abusive shadow of her husband as well? For all we know, she coulda been a battered wife, forced into subserviency. :-\
Ennis' dad is the most evil. John Twist is a jerk, all right. But it sounds like he would have tolerated, however reluctantly, Jack setting up ranching with a man. Ennis' dad would have tortured one or both of them to death. Can't get much worse than that.
My great-grandfather (my maternal grandmother's father) was a Methodist minister, and his wife, my great-grandmother, was a gentle soul who was much loved and respected by the family and the larger community. My mother remembers her being an ideal minister's wife. I was but five when she died, but I have a memory of being walked up to her by my mother, while she was seated in her rocking chair, and of her taking my hand and kissing it.
I have met a few Methodist mothers who were very spiritual and loving of their own children, too. I have been shown great hospitality by Methodists and I have a memory of good time in Methodist family's home the first Sunday I was living in the small town where I first taught school. I did not go there regularly though, I felt more at home in the American Baptist Church.
my vote goes to Jack Twist, hands-down. Anybody who would pee on their child is not fit to be a parent, much less a human being. And he seemed bent on destroying anyone who came within his sight, including his wife and his son's best friend too. The way McRobbie plays that role is so vile, he really deserved an award, as well as Roberta Maxwell. He was so bad, he was good!!
The sheep herding dogs...didn't see them pull their weight.
The sheep herding dogs...didn't see them pull their weight.
oops this is about who we dislike - sorry...
GRRR old man Del Mar - rest in pieces by the highway.
Cassie is probably my fifth favorite character. Maybe even fourth (shocking, I know -- who does this exclude?).
I don't think I *can* vote for this. I hate John Twist, I hate Jimbo, Aguirre is an inconsiderate prick, I hate Ennis' father because he ruined his poor son's life and for all we know he's a killer, and Cassie is head-and-shoulders above all of these assholes I've listed here but she is still kind of annoying.
Hmm... Alma?
ps. why do we think K.E. and the story behind why Ennis punched Jack was omitted from the movie?
By the way, your post, Amanda, made me think of something: how chilling it is that Ennis phrases it, "for all I know, he done the job." Not, "for all I know, he done that horrible crime," or even simply "for all I know, he done it." I realize this can partly be chalked up to Ennis' manner of speaking. But to call it "the job" is, at some level, to equate it with an expected or necessary task. Now, I'm not saying Ennis thinks of it that way. But how much did he recognize how horrible his father's attitude was? Clearly he was seriously disturbed by it, thought the experience traumatic, but the extent to which he condemns his father for it is ambiguous.
Yes, it's certainly chilling, but I do think he condemns his father for it. I think it's made his own self-image and self-understanding incredibly difficult. And, it clearly has complicated Ennis's own attitude towards homosexuality and his own sexuality... but I truly don't see Ennis as a character who could excuse that kind of violence.
Well, I don't hate Alma. I consider her a victim of her own ignorance and upbringing.
As for Jack's dad, I don't think he was as bad as Ennis father was. You can see it in the person Jack becomes. He was hard on him, but he must have done something right, along with Mrs. Twist of course, because Jack turned out to be a valiant man who, unlike Ennis, would rather have 5 minutes of wonderful than a whole life of misery and nothing special. Jack was also kind and loving. His flaw, however, was stubborness. He waited way too long for Ennis to come around, then died without really enjoying the life he wanted. Ennis' dad made him a coward, a person with a lack of personal awareness and too afraid to embrace the opportunities life gave him.
think Jack's wonderful personality came from Mrs. Twist. I think his father was a cold, insatiable prick of a father who had no substantial love for Jack. (I mean, there's a possibility he did but who knows...) Instead, I interpret that Jack overcame his distant and harsh father to become a caring, spirited, sweet, and, like you said, valiant person. (With help from his sweetheart mother.)
But how is waiting for Ennis to come around stubborn?
As for waiting for Ennis, I think 20 years is too much time to wait for anyone to come around. I mean no matter how great your love for that other person is, it's always important that you love yourself more. That's one of the lessons I learned from the movie.
how chilling it is that Ennis phrases it, "for all I know, he done the job." Not, "for all I know, he done that horrible crime," or even simply "for all I know, he done it." I realize this can partly be chalked up to Ennis' manner of speaking. But to call it "the job" is, at some level, to equate it with an expected or necessary task.
how can two voters dislike Cassie -- however annoying you might find her, which personally I don't, despite the stinky feet -- more than Ennis' dad, a man who may have tortured someone to death?
Well, but (and I realize this is OT and there are probably a million other places I could dispute this, but I happen to be here just now) it's not like Ennis spurned Jack completely. If he had, if Ennis had not returned Jack's love at all or gotten together with him when he could, then two years might be too much. It's not that he completely didn't "come around," he just didn't come out. But a love that doesn't include living together is not the same as no love at all.
OK, just to get back on topic, how can two voters dislike Cassie -- however annoying you might find her, which personally I don't, despite the stinky feet -- more than Ennis' dad, a man who may have tortured someone to death?
(Maybe we should open a whole new thread, instead of talking here OT, what do you think?).
Randall's my least favourite character!
I can dig this. Who the hell's he think he is, anyway???
Actually I hate all the people you listed except Cassie. She's a bit rude and pushy but does not register 'hate' to me.
Now, I have the challenging task of playing Jimbo in the ongoing performance thread, and am seeking ways to lend some sympathy to that none-too-friendly but perhaps conflicted rodeo clown. I think his scene with Jack is important to the narrative to underline Jack's loneliness and continued hunger for male intimacy, even seeking it out from as unprepossessing a source as our Jimbo. It also pithily illustrates Jack's naivete and unwitting vulnerability, further anticipating his possible murder later in the story.
I also selected John Twist and Jimbo. Down with both of them! John Twist is central to the story ... but Jimbo can walk right out of the movie if you ask me.
Now, I have the challenging task of playing Jimbo in the ongoing performance thread, and am seeking ways to lend some sympathy to that none-too-friendly but perhaps conflicted rodeo clown. I think his scene with Jack is important to the narrative to underline Jack's loneliness and continued hunger for male intimacy, even seeking it out from as unprepossessing a source as our Jimbo. It also pithily illustrates Jack's naivete and unwitting vulnerability, further anticipating his possible murder later in the story.
Now, I have the challenging task of playing Jimbo in the ongoing performance thread, and am seeking ways to lend some sympathy to that none-too-friendly but perhaps conflicted rodeo clown. I think his scene with Jack is important to the narrative to underline Jack's loneliness and continued hunger for male intimacy, even seeking it out from as unprepossessing a source as our Jimbo. It also pithily illustrates Jack's naivete and unwitting vulnerability, further anticipating his possible murder later in the story.
I agree with you Scott.
Jimbo was a dumbass mule if you ask me..lol! How can anyone say NO to Jack Twist? ???
Ok..ok..so he might've been straight, but so what? ;) ;D
I hate the Basque. What's the big deal about a few soup boxes? Talk about lazy!
Well, I hate the Jolly Minister. "...and if you don't, I will" makes me want to slap him every time. Get your jollies somewhere else, bud.LOL! Me too!
I hate the Basque. What's the big deal about a few soup boxes? Talk about lazy!
Well, I hate the Jolly Minister. "...and if you don't, I will" makes me want to slap him every time. Get your jollies somewhere else, bud.
Have just read through this post and find it very humorous.
I agree about that minister.....hate that scene and what he says....as if a young girl would want him to kiss her....as you say, he was getting his jollies.
My least favourite character isn't listed.
The character I like least is Randall Malone. >:(
Why? Because he presents the most viable, real risk of being the one who's ultimately responsible for breaking-up Jack and Ennis. And he's just too smarmy and clever for words. He's a snake. I don't like him. He should keep his grubby hands to himself and stay away from Jack (and that goes for you too, Jack!).
Though the character I would least like to be seated next to at a family reunion/long flight is LaShawn Malone. Bless her heart, Im sure shes a fine woman (her real-life equivalents) but Randalls expression even before he starts making eyes at Jack says it all. Think Id be eyeballing that guy Ennis is partnered with on the roadcrew from sheer desperation if I had to sit across the dinner table from her evry night. You know Randall is big ol drunk and if BBM took place in 1998 in stead of 1978, Randall would be online every spare minute on manfactory.com making new freiends.
One thing that troubles me about that scene is that the minister is an older man, 50- or 60-something; so unless he entered the ministry late in life, he's performed a lot of marriages over the years. And has seen his share of marrying couples where one or both of them were clearly unhappy. For anyone who performs marriages regularly, that must be something that chills the blood.
And Randall appears to be stuck in a marriage at least as bleak as Jack's, with a wife who clearly thinks she's married beneath her. While his wife's chatter sounds silly and innocuous on the surface, there are snide little put-downs scattered throughout, such as "like it or not, here I am!" (when someone says "like it or not" about their own situation; it's a bet that not is what they're thinking of). She makes a point of Randall not knowing what to do when the car breaks down and when she tells Lureen about how much money she spent on clothes while working for Neiman-Marcus, she mentions that she spent "more than Randall ever will make."
On some viewings, my reaction has been 'how dense!' and in others, 'whether anyone else in the church noticed anything amiss or not, he's trying to convince himself that this isn't one of those sad weddings by lightening things up a bit.'
I guess sometimes one´s feelings can´t be explained with logic ::)
I didn't dislike Randall; as far as Ennis and Jack are concerned he's arguably an innocent bystander as he can't have any way of knowing in his one scene of Ennis' existence. And later.... well, from his perspective this is a relationship that obviously isn't doing Jack any good so I doubt his intentions are bad.
And Randall appears to be stuck in a marriage at least as bleak as Jack's, with a wife who clearly thinks she's married beneath her. While his wife's chatter sounds silly and innocuous on the surface, there are snide little put-downs scattered throughout, such as "like it or not, here I am!" (when someone says "like it or not" about their own situation; it's a bet that not is what they're thinking of). She makes a point of Randall not knowing what to do when the car breaks down and when she tells Lureen about how much money she spent on clothes while working for Neiman-Marcus, she mentions that she spent "more than Randall ever will make."
And as someone who attended college in the Deep South not far from the time that LaShawn and Lureen did, I can tell you that the Tri-Delt sorority (Delta-Delta-Delta) was the sorority for rich and semi-rich Daddy's girls at that particular time and place. IMO, her remark about Texas not being what they expected and her indirect reference to her income isn't unrelated to that. Jack might have been the best thing Randall's eyes had seen for years!
You know, I like LaShawn and I never thought about this before, but it might have been interesting to see a different kind of character in that part. What if Randall reacted that same way to Jack -- even though he had a wife who was attractive and appealing?
Dont forget Lureens dig at Jack, "Husbands...dont never seem to want to dance with their wives. Whyd you think is, Jack." and his brush-off, "Never gave it any thought."
Both women are putting on a show but there is clearly anger underneath at there men who are not being husbands to them, the fatigue of being married to a closeted man and wondering why if youre holding up youre end, the men aint behaving like the marital-advice books say they will. They are both good-looking women, havent let themselves go, dont keep a funky house, so what gives, they wonder. Theire men no doubt do there share of drinking, how couples in their position coped in those days.
I voted for John Twist. Ennis´s dad is probably worse, but we never get to see him so somehow he still doesn´t provoke the same feeling of anger as JT does.
Both women are putting on a show but there is clearly anger underneath at there men who are not being husbands to them, the fatigue of being married to a closeted man and wondering why if youre holding up youre end, the men aint behaving like the marital-advice books say they will. They are both good-looking women, havent let themselves go, dont keep a funky house, so what gives, they wonder. Theire men no doubt do there share of drinking, how couples in their position coped in those days.
Have heard a rather nauseating array of arguments spinning or softening what he did (most of the "it's just their culture" variety)
Well my most favoite extra in the movie was Alexandra Hager, a resident of Rockyford, Alberta, who knocked Jake Gyllenhaal down by accident and then fled the scene in terror.
(You owe me, Jake! :laugh: )
Except that LeShawn is a bit more direct about feeling that she married beneath her. And that could have surfaced pretty early in the marriage.
Now this really raises my curiosity. Do elaborate! How did she knock Jake down?? What scene was the extra in?
But, again, I do think that all the people at the dinner dance are probably making Jack feel very out of place as the only one at the table with a limited education. He can't even really participate in a conversation that's about college football, sororities and marriages. Around the time that they were all in college, he was on the mountain with Ennis.
I voted for Ennis' father. Have heard a rather nauseating array of arguments spinning or softening what he did (most of the "it's just their culture" variety) but I don't know....I don´t know if trying to explain his behavior is the same thing as "softening" it
There's just something about beating a man to a pulp, dragging him around by the genitals until they get ripped off and then taking your two young sons to show off the body to that seems.... well, you know.... sort of rude. :P
Btw. JT and Ennis´s dad might have been good friends, dont you think? 8)
Now this really raises my curiosity. Do elaborate! How did she knock Jake down?? What scene was the extra in?
Oh, good point, A, I never thought of it that way! In terms of "marrying beneath" and "high society" and other social terms that reference up and down, at that time, Jack was on the top of a mountain with Ennis, looking down on it all, and nothing seemed wrong. He was luckier than even the fanciest college-goer, that way.
I've always thought the dinner dance was particularly relevant to the idea of Jack being a "black sheep" or an outsider.
She was one of hundreds of people in the stands at the rodeo where Jack meets Lureen. Her mother, Bonny, who is a cook at the hotel in Rockyford, says she can picker her out in the crowd.
The story Bonny told was that her daughter turned quickly and ran straight in to Jake, knocking him on the ground. She was so mortified she then ran away.
Boy, he did look mighty fine all in black with that leather sports coat though! ;D
Yes! Absolutely, when you look at him in contrast to almost everyone else in the crowd at the event, Jack really sticks out in his especially dark clothing.Never thought about the foreshadowing there but now that you point it out it's almost obvious!
I think there's a bit of foreshadowing here about Jack's death too... the ominous color and the discussion about the broken down pick up that occurs with LaShawn while they dance.
:o :o :o
Wow. From whom?
It was on another forum, and my taking issue with it was my first, and hopefully only, experience with getting hate mail. That wasn't a reference to anyone here.I thought it was a pretty clear impression that Mr DelMar either did it or was involved. You give the examples to support that conclusion.
That Ennis' father was the one who killed Earl -- or, more likely, part of a group of men who did -- is my interpretation, of course. It's based on references in both the ss and movie. In the ss Ennis says during the Motel scene:
If he was alive and was to put his head in that door right now you bet he’d go get his tire iron.
Ennis doesn't say that his father would have beaten the crap out of him or disowned him, he specifically refers to a letal physical attack. IMO, that's a reflection of a gut feeling he'd always had about his father.
In the movie, Ennis says that his father might have done it "for all I know," which isn't as definite a statement. However, the flashback clearly shows Earl's body just as it was left and it evidently hadn't been found yet. But Ennis' father knows exactly where it is, and makes sure that he takes his sons to see it before it's discovered.
There's no telling what he'd done to his daughter too, by the time he did the world a favor and drove off the road.
I got a hard time watching it too, but because I lived it, and I know too well what comes later, when the couples part ways and drive home in silence to their resentment and obligation-filled homes. That kind of silence between man and wife can lie so thick on the dark bedroom it seems only a gunshot can break it.Me too.
Now that really would be embarassing!! I don't think I've ever bumped into anyone hard enough to actually knock them over... and needless to say, especially not a celebrity. The fact that it was one of the stars of the movie just makes the whole situation even wackier.
However, the flashback clearly shows Earl's body just as it was left and it evidently hadn't been found yet. But Ennis' father knows exactly where it is, and makes sure that he takes his sons to see it before it's discovered.
Mr Newsome really got on my nerves! He was my one and only vote, I wish I could make it count as 3 votes.
Though if she'd have stuck around and reached down to give him a hand up, who knows where it might have led! I had a friend in junior high who had a crush on Paul McCartney. Her plan to meet him was to park outside his house and then ram into his car when he came out.
:laugh:
Good point. Even the best-case scenario -- that he somehow heard of it before the sheriff did but wasn't directly involved -- is still pretty bad.
I did once know someone to make a tongue-in-cheek argument that Mr. Del Mar took his sons to see Earl out of concern for their welfare and safety ("Be careful, boys, this is a homophobic society, so if you happen to be gay, be sure to be discrete!"). But unless you buy that, there's really no way around it -- Ennis' dad was evil. Ennis must have grown up in a state of contant terror.
I did once know someone to make a tongue-in-cheek argument that Mr. Del Mar took his sons to see Earl out of concern for their welfare and safety ("Be careful, boys, this is a homophobic society, so if you happen to be gay, be sure to be discrete!"). But unless you buy that, there's really no way around it -- Ennis' dad was evil. Ennis must have grown up in a state of contant terror.
Yes, I agee that Ennis's Dad's knowledge of the incident, possible direct involvement and interest in showing off the body... especially to young children who would have been terrified (regardless of their own future sexuality) make him a particularly dreadful character. If nothing else, dragging children to see a murdered body seems to amount to pretty intense child abuse on a psychological level. Thinking about Ennis's Dad is interesting compared to other characters on the list... because our only knowledge about him in either the film or the story comes through the filter of Ennis's memory/ description. We don't encounter him as a living, active character in the same way that we do other characters on this list.
(http://davecullen.com/brokeback/daily/format/placeholder.gif) | (http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q135/talkstocoyotes/BM_0933.jpg) | (http://davecullen.com/brokeback/daily/format/placeholder.gif) | (http://davecullen.com/brokeback/daily/format/placeholder.gif) |
There are no explanations for evil. Only excuses. (Again, not a reference to any comments posted here.) |
In the film, I think they show Ennis's Dad as headless, faceless and voiceless...
Part of the rationalization I read was that this was the equivalent of shooting a dangerous animal in the neighborhood -- i.e., the Ennis' good ole dad had the best of motives in trying to protect his family from a man whom he thought was a threat to them, especially to his sons.
I believe it was Mikaela who once wrote a fascinating post about how Mr. Del Mar's lack of specific identification (headless, voiceless) makes him a stand-in for society as a whole, with the incident representing figuratively what boys in that society learn growing up.
Another way to look at it is that, this incident being filtered through Ennis' memory, everything that's less important in the scene fades out. When he recalls it, maybe he's less likely to think about his dad's face than the feel of his dad's hand on the back of his neck and his own sense of horror. When Marge mentioned the lack of law enforcement, it even occurred to me that it's possible that in reality there were other people around but what remains in Ennis' memory is that stark image of the abandoned mutilated body.
Atz and to others, why do most persons do NOT care about those scenes ??
I don't think that most people don't care about them; they're obviously very important.
I don't shed any tears for Alma, myself. But the real reason people express more sympathy toward her, of course, is that we get to know her as a character. Whereas Earl we see only as a corpse. His death is obviously much more horrifying than anything that happens to Alma or Lureen or Cassie or even Ennis. But that's the primary emotion it elicits -- horror, more than sadness.
What do you and others think about gay murders ?
Not too long ago, a group of teenagers tortured one of their group, set her on fire and threw her into a ravine...it wastn' high enough to kill her outright so they went down and got her and threw her off repeatedly then left her. She wasnt' dead....just badly injured...she tried to crawl out and over the course of several days various teenagers drove out to look at her. Eventually someone cut her throat. No one callled the police.
And where is my reply to shakestheground ?
It was a decent reply !
One thing I like about BBM is that few of the characters -- with the exceptions of maybe Mr. Del Mar and Mrs. Twist -- are completely bad or completely good.
John Twist is a jerk, but apparently did not object to Jack's bringing a man up to live on the ranch.
LaShawn is a blabbermouth and disdainful of her husband, but is cute and able to shrug off Lureen's insult.
Aguirre is gruff, but doesn't fire Jack and Ennis or even mention having seen them stemmin the rose until much later.
L. D. Newsome is obnoxious, but enables Jack go from poor to affluent.
Cassie plunks her stinky feet in Ennis' lap, but is well meaning and loves Ennis even though he's not fun.
Jimbo brusquely rejects Jack and possibly gossips behind his back, but saves Jack from being gored by a bull.
One thing I like about BBM is that few of the characters -- with the exceptions of maybe Mr. Del Mar and Mrs. Twist -- are completely bad or completely good.
John Twist is a jerk, but apparently did not object to Jack's bringing a man up to live on the ranch.
LaShawn is a blabbermouth and disdainful of her husband, but is cute and able to shrug off Lureen's insult.
Aguirre is gruff, but doesn't fire Jack and Ennis or even mention having seen them stemmin the rose until much later.
L. D. Newsome is obnoxious, but enables Jack go from poor to affluent.
Cassie plunks her stinky feet in Ennis' lap, but is well meaning and loves Ennis even though he's not fun.
Jimbo brusquely rejects Jack and possibly gossips behind his back, but saves Jack from being gored by a bull.