Author Topic: Would it have worked? Merged with "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possible?"  (Read 51638 times)

rtprod

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Update 9/19: At opinionista's request, I have merged her thread, "Would it have worked?" with the older thread on a similar subject: "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possible?" (started in April by rtprod). When two threads are merged, the posts are automatically sorted in chronological order. The more recent posts start on page 3. Opinionista's opening post is #41.
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Hi everyone,

Ever wondered what might have happened in our film if that cow and calf operation had really been born circa 1967?  Let's imagine for a second that Jack and Ennis had set up life together and pursued Jack's utopian ideal -- and then imagine that although society possibly did not accept them, it at least left them alone and let them somewhat prosper.  Could it have ever really worked, even if those external barriers were lifted?   

Not in my mind.  Ennis is his own nemesis, and I wonder how long it would have taken Jack to "quit." 

Anyone have any feelings on this or even on their own "quitting" or limits? 

rt
« Last Edit: September 19, 2006, 06:07:41 pm by latjoreme »

EnnisDelMar

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I think they could have had a 'sweet life', but I do agree that Ennis had been scarred as a boy by his father, and that probably would have kept him from giving himself completely to Jack.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Funny you should bring this up now, rt. I've been thinking along the same lines myself, although I've been coming at the question from an economic perspective.

I believe I remember reading in Annie Proulx's essay that she is interested in the lives of people in changing economic conditions. I find myself thinking that perhaps the only way they would even have had a chance was to take over the Twist spread in Lightning Flat--which, apparently, Jack did mention to his folks from time to time. How much money could he have expected to get out of his father-in-law? I'm sure it takes quite a lot of capital to set up even a "little" cow and calf operation. At least by taking over the Twist homestead, they wouldn't have had to buy property to set up the operation--let alone equipment and stock.

Regardless of Ennis's personality--and I'm not disputing your point here--many couples, gay and straight, break up over money issues. So I'm wondering whether Ennis and Jack's relationship could have withstood economic strain. Or, put another way, was Jack's dream ever really possible in the Wyoming of the 1960s and 1970s?
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moremojo

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If Ennis could get to the point of setting up a menage with Jack in the first place, that would indicate remarkable progress in his acceptance of himself, of Jack, and of their relationship. He might still have rationalized the situation with thinking that he and Jack were otherwise straight guys who had this unusual thing between them, but he would have been aware that he was in love with Jack and that this might work for them.

And I think it could have worked...Ennis had reason to fear for  his and Jack's safety, but there was no certainty that either of them would meet the same fate as Earl (and whatever happened to Earl's partner?). By the end of the story, a remarkable number of people know (or knew) the truth about Ennis and Jack: Aguirre, Alma, Mr. and Mrs. Twist, Lureen, and possibly Alma Junior. And Ennis is still alive at the end. I agree with you that Ennis was his own worst enemy in thwarting any possible future with Jack (and Jack surely realized this eventually). The rest of his life will probably be haunted by thoughts of what-might-have-been, had he been more receptive to Jack's desires.

Scott
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 07:00:36 pm by moremojo »

Offline houstonangel88

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rt, I think the ONLY chance they had was the time when they first came down from the Brokeback mountain.   There is NO way Ennis would get a divorce; he loves his two daughters too much to do it.   It was Alma who kicked him out after 10 years...  and still, Ennis wouldn't make any move.   
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 12:14:42 pm by houstonangel88 »

Offline MaineWriter

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I think it could've worked, but not in 1967. This is part of the reason I set my fictional story in 1976, after Ennis's divorce. In 1967 I think they were both still fairly young and immature. They didn't have a lot of life between them and for them to try to get together and set up housekeeping...it would be tough. I'm with Jeff, I think it would've been economic issues that would've ruined their relationship, in the end, but I think immaturity would also play a large role, too.

Nine or ten years later, Ennis having lived through a failed marriage, Jack's was loveless--I think they would have come together realizing more about themselves, Ennis in particular. I think with that experience to build on, they could have  come to a place where they would've had a context for understanding how to make their relationship work, through the good and bad.

I am also assuming that Jack has picked up a little business acumen through his work with Newsome's and they would be able to come up with some sort of economic plan for their lives that would have been viable.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 11:49:53 am by lnicoll »
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Offline Lumière

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I am an optimist, and I'd have to say that they'd have made a proper go of it.  It might not have been "the sweet life" but I think it would've been a life that was, at least true to who they were.   More importantly, they loved each other; they clearly enjoyed each others presence and longed for moments when they could be together.  There were fundamental differences between Jack and Ennis, they both knew that.  I think Jack knew what he'd be getting into when he proposed the "cow and calf operation" to Ennis.   

IMO, it would've taken alot to get Ennis to accept the idea of "2 guys livin' together" ... so if he actually said yes to the cow & calf operation, he'd have had to overcome at least a few of his 'issues'.  I definitely think that a good life would've been possible, don't know it would've been SWEET, but then again, nothing in life is perfect.  :)


Offline serious crayons

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I don't see Ennis as QUITE as screwed up as some people do. He's shy and inhibited and hot-tempered, but those are fairly ordinary traits that don't necessarily preclude happy relationships. The only really big, relationship-hindering problem Ennis has is homophobia -- as long as that was an obstacle, he'd never take Jack up on his idea. In the actual movie, it took Jack's death to show Ennis that he shouldn't have let homophobia get in the way of their happiness. Once Ennis gets that, his attitude is much better; if he had it all to live over, I'm sure he would have done things differently.

So RT's question requires assuming that some other event or epiphany caused Ennis to see the light sooner. If that happened, then, yes, I think they could have had as much chance as anybody to succeed as a couple. More, in fact, because their personalities and skills are so complementary, and because their relationship was SO GREAT in so many ways.

And Scott, thanks for pointing out that
By the end of the story, a remarkable number of people know (or knew) the truth about Ennis and Jack: Aguirre, Alma, Mr. and Mrs. Twist, Lureen, and possibly Alma Junior. And Ennis is still alive at the end.

I've always really liked that, because it adds another layer of meaning. As we all know, in real life Ennis' fears are not unfounded. But in the movie itself, nobody who is aware of their relationship does anything mean to them at all, outside of a few snide comments. Aguirre doesn't even do that until a year later! Alma waits until long after their divorce! By making Ennis' hangups the most serious obstacle, the movie becomes not just about the life-choice limitations imposed by an intolerant society (which, IMO, better describes the short story), but also about how that intolerance warps its victims emotionally, and about the broader issue of not letting your fears rule your life.

(BTW, somewhere around here I saw someone who sounded pretty knowledgable about ranching describing all the economic factors that would have made their success unlikely. If I find it, I'll let you know.)

Offline Front-Ranger

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Yes, I think it would have been possible, in fact a cow/calf operation really needs to have 2 men or more running it in order to be economically feasible. The ratio of men to women in that region makes an insistence on the traditional family unit impractical. Since pioneering days, women have left rural areas or died of childbirth; even Alma did not want to live in a rural ranch house. There must have been male-only households all over the place. Although there were a few extremists like Ennis' dad who tried to impose their will on the community, they are fortunately few and dealt with through the justice system or through fate.

That leaves Ennis' internal hangups. So, the question is, how much would Jack be willing to tolerate? There again, I think Jack would have had the patience to let Ennis slowly shed his cautiousness, as well as the strength to resist his temper, as Alma didn't. Jack would have been a better spouse for Ennis than Alma was. Ennis had the capacity to change, as was seen on BBM, and he really listened intently to Jack. He would have retained some of his hangups but what couple doesn't have hangups? The real test of love is accepting a person the way they are.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline SFEnnisSF

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Since I've been reading Leslie's A Love Born From Steele, I'm somewhat blinded by her story and agree with her post above. 

Yes, I'm an optimist too, and people DO change.  Ennis would have wanted nobody else but Jack, and just by taking the first step of ranching together would have only been the beginning of Ennis coming out of his shell.  I think it would have worked out rather nicely.  Sure they would fight like every other couple, but honestly, I think they loved each other so much that they would have been toghether until the end.

rtprod

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Okay, now here's an interesting one. 

SF, you just mentioned that they "would fight" like every other couple.  We know how they fight, rough and tumble, etc. 

Is that considered (domestic) violence, then?  Don't laugh, because we're talking about two masculine egos and the way at least one of them expresses himself, and who he is. 

Would that have been an accepted mode of aggressive communication when the going got tough?   ???

Good one to think about.

rt
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 02:25:32 pm by rtprod »

Offline SFEnnisSF

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Okay, now here's an interesting one. 

SF, you just mentioned that they "would fight" like every other couple.  We know how they fight, rough and tumble, etc. 

Is that considered (domestic) violence, then?  Don't laugh, because we're talking about two masculine egos and they way at least one of them expresses himself, and who he is. 

Would that have been an accepted mode of aggressive communication when the going got tough?   ???

Good one to think about.

rt


I more meant fighting over the dishes, house chores, money, etc.  Like squabbling old couples do.  I don't think it would have ever turned violent.  Ennis would be past that point by now.  I hope.

Offline serious crayons

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Okay, now here's an interesting one. 

SF, you just mentioned that they "would fight" like every other couple.  We know how they fight, rough and tumble, etc. 

Is that considered (domestic) violence, then?  Don't laugh, because we're talking about two masculine egos and they way at least one of them expresses himself, and who he is. 

Would that have been an accepted mode of aggressive communication when the going got tough?   ???

Good one to think about.

rt

I would think no, it's not domestic violence except in the literal sense of the word, or if technically it is it's not a very problematic case. The two of them are pretty equally matched, as opposed to one powerful person victimizing a weaker one. Also, I think they would always stop short of seriously hurting each other. Even in their one physical fight, on the mountain, nobody got very hurt. Ennis was angry but not trying to inflict real damage, as he was with the bikers or the guy in the truck.

Offline twistedude

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Yes, I think so. Someone, or some several, have pointed out that for them to decide to live trogether-that is, for Ennis to agree to live with Jack--Ennis would have to have undergonbe a change. I find Leslie's first chapter of "A Love Born from Steel" pretty convincing in this respect (Jack uses both despair and simple logic to convince Ennis--read it, if you haven't).  As far as making a success out of the operastion, two knowledsgable  willing and to-eachother-devoted men working together have so much more going for them than most couples starting out life together. Why not?

As to the danger, I think Leslie covers that well too, and I don't want to give any part of the story away...

Enemies? There's a Gullah story my father loved to tell.  Won't ell the story, but this is how it ends: Snakes, they be everwhere. Some crawl on 'e belly; some walk pun top o two feet. Now the man with sense, he look out for snake, wherever he shaum, and leave em alone. Sometimes, he live a long time,, but not  good time, cause ever the he see someone, he look in e mouf to see how e fang stan', and e haat be col lika the fire, atter it go out.  But the man who have love, like God tell we, him not live berry long, mebby, but    he haat be warm, long and he live.              
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

rtprod

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Also, I think they would always stop short of seriously hurting each other.

However, when Ennis says late in the film that all those things might "get you killed," it's clear that he's not "foolin," also the way he overpowers Alma in the kitchen and talks with his fists in the street brawl.  Its his (only) way of letting out those demons. 

rt

Offline serious crayons

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Well, I happen to think he IS foolin'. No way would he hurt Jack. Do you actually think he would kill Jack if he knew he was straying? Here's a subject for a whole 'nother thread!

(And for the record, I don't think he would have hurt Alma either.)

Offline SFEnnisSF

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What latjoreme said.

Offline MaineWriter

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(And for the record, I don't think he would have hurt Alma either.)

I think Ennis (all three of them, story Ennis, movie Ennis, and A Love Born From Steel Ennis) had a personal code that he would not hit a woman. I don't think he was an abusive husband. I also don't think that if he had gotten together with Jack (in whatever universe we are talking about) he would have been an abusive partner/spouse.

Movie Ennis looked like he was coming pretty close to a punch after Thanksgiving, but even then he was able to control his temper.
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Offline JennyC

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I believe in the power of tragedy.  A lot of great literatures have tragedy endings.   Tragedy haunts us more because it makes you feel the pain, leaves this lingering thoughts on your mind on what could/should have happened, and other things that I can not articulate...  Therefore I respect the way Annie chose to end the story.   It probably made a bigger impact than a one with happy endings.

That said while acknowledging the impact of tragedy endings, I always hope for happy endings for the characters that I become to know and care so much about.  The devastated feeling after read the short story stayed with me for a very long time, it haunted me so much that I felt I need to allow myself thinking about a different alternative.  That’s when I started to read some of the fanfictions. In a way, it’s therapeutic to ease that devastated feeling.

So to the question “Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possible?”  I think it would have been possible.  I don’t believe (or don’t want to believe) Jack was ready to give up Ennis after the lake scene.  He may later, but given Jack, I think he would want to make it clear to Ennis.  As to Ennis, I don’t think the story or the movie gives us a lot of clue in terms of how he would face the reality that Jack was ready to give up their relationship if he did not make a commitment.  Jack had never really pushed Ennis into that position.  People can change, we make decision that even surprise ourselves when we have been pushed to our bottom line where we don’t have the luxury to afford nice-to-haves, but just barely hold on have-to-haves. The question that probably we will never find a definite answer (therefore is up to everyone’s own interpretation) is where exactly Ennis’s bottom line is.  Also the time is changing; the society’s tolerance on homosexuality is changing. My interpretation is overtime Ennis realized that Jack was the most important things in his life, apart from his daughters.  He didn’t seek change because Jack indulged him.  When he must face the fact that Jack would leave him, he would agree to have a life together with Jack.  The decision won’t come easily and their life ahead won’t be easy too, which is why you should read some of the fanfictions  :)  There are some really good ones out there including Leslie’s.

Of course, this is just my interpretation of the characters and probably mixed with my own life experience.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 03:22:15 pm by JennyC »

Offline SFEnnisSF

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He didn’t seek change because Jack indulged him.  When he must face the fact that Jack would leave him, he would agree to have a life together with Jack. 


Very interesting point!

rtprod

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All great stories are about love and loss. 

Thankfully life doesn't always follow suit.

rt

Offline Kd5000

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I thought that the neighbors might have been a bit more tolerant if Jack Twist had taken over his dad's ranch. That's John Twist's son and his friend (euphemism in many parts of the country) who own that place.  Whether small scale ranches were feasible or whether their going the way of the passenger pigeon is quite possible. Economics of scale, you know.

Can they  have had a sweet life together, given the social environment of 1967 WY is of course an answer I can't give. I wasn't around in 67 but  I can imagine it being a very repressive environment. Sure, adults in the local community might have reconized that as long as ENnis and Jack keep it private, some tolerance is granted but it only takes some homophobic teenagers or ppl of that ilk to burn your place down and shoot down your cattle.  Then where are you left.

First we get to point A, is a cattle operation run by a same sex couple possible in 1967 WY,  then wonder if there was enough chemistry for Ennis and Jack to stay together as a couple for decades.  I would say yes. At least they deserved the opportunity, which was denied.

Offline MaineWriter

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This discussion is interesting and is making me flash back to this article, which was posted back  in the old days. Here's the link again, I suspect many here have not seen this before:

 Real Gay Cowboys

By Patricia Nell Warren

http://www.outsports.com/history/gaycowboys.htm

The story is long and has some nice pictures, so I am not going to copy and paste the whole thing here. Use the link.

L
xo
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Offline Aussie Chris

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I don't see Ennis as QUITE as screwed up as some people do. He's shy and inhibited and hot-tempered, but those are fairly ordinary traits that don't necessarily preclude happy relationships. The only really big, relationship-hindering problem Ennis has is homophobia -- as long as that was an obstacle, he'd never take Jack up on his idea. In the actual movie, it took Jack's death to show Ennis that he shouldn't have let homophobia get in the way of their happiness. Once Ennis gets that, his attitude is much better; if he had it all to live over, I'm sure he would have done things differently.

When it comes to all the rational arguments and logical conclusions as to what would need to be different with Ennis, latjoreme got it 100% right in my book.  But today being rational and logical is for ninnies.  I'm going to let my heart rule and exclaim defiantly and proudly: OF COURSE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A SWEET LIFE, BEAUTIFUL AND PERFECT, WITH A DAILY DOZIE EMBRACE!
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline serious crayons

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When it comes to all the rational arguments and logical conclusions as to what would need to be different with Ennis, latjoreme got it 100% right in my book.  But today being rational and logical is for ninnies.  I'm going to let my heart rule and exclaim defiantly and proudly: OF COURSE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A SWEET LIFE, BEAUTIFUL AND PERFECT, WITH A DAILY DOZIE EMBRACE!

I was about to say thanks, Chris, but, um, I guess not. However, I will say that when I let MY heart rule I agree with YOU 100 percent. Daily dozy embrace, whiskey springs, bluebirds ...

Offline Ellemeno

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By the end of the story, a remarkable number of people know (or knew) the truth about Ennis and Jack: Aguirre, Alma, Mr. and Mrs. Twist, Lureen, and possibly Alma Junior.

I know I'm in a minority here - but I would add Monroe and Jenny to that list.

Offline Aussie Chris

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I was about to say thanks, Chris, but, um, I guess not. However, I will say that when I let MY heart rule I agree with YOU 100 percent. Daily dozy embrace, whiskey springs, bluebirds ...

It *was* meant to be a compliment, although I might have been a bit quick to defend the SWEET LIFE fantasy.  I still feel strongly about it actually.  I need to believe that it could have worked.  All this domestic reality stuff about "they would have ended up arguing over money and such" just doesn't sit with me.  We're talking about soul mates and best friends here.  They spend most of their lives without money.  They spend the first summer up on the mountain with almost nothing but each other.  Ennis sacrifices decent jobs and the possibility of advancing because he ends up quitting to spend time with Jack.  If they didn't have to do this then why wouldn't their prospects improve?

It's such a leap of faith to ask the question in the first place, but as far as I am concerned if Ennis could get over his homophobia then a SWEET LIFE was more than just possible, it was likely.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline serious crayons

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It *was* meant to be a compliment, although I might have been a bit quick to defend the SWEET LIFE fantasy.  I still feel strongly about it actually.  I need to believe that it could have worked.  All this domestic reality stuff about "they would have ended up arguing over money and such" just doesn't sit with me.  We're talking about soul mates and best friends here.  They spend most of their lives without money.  They spend the first summer up on the mountain with almost nothing but each other.  Ennis sacrifices decent jobs and the possibility of advancing because he ends up quitting to spend time with Jack.  If they didn't have to do this then why wouldn't their prospects improve?

It's such a leap of faith to ask the question in the first place, but as far as I am concerned if Ennis could get over his homophobia then a SWEET LIFE was more than just possible, it was likely.

Oh, Chris, I agree 100 percent with this. Maybe even 200 percent. Aside from that homophobia thing, there could hardly be a more perfect relationship. Soul mates, best friends AND intense physical attraction. Many couples have to settle for two out of three, at best.

I know I'm in a minority here - but I would add Monroe and Jenny to that list.

So am I then, because I'm pretty sure about Monroe, and would consider Jenny a possibility.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Soul mates, best friends AND intense physical attraction.

You know, it's the loss of the "soul mate--best friend" that hurts me the most at the end of the film. We know that Ennis can get by on a couple of high altitude fucks once or twice a year, so it almost doesn't bother me that he loses his "physical" lover, but my understanding has long been that Jack was the best friend and closest friend that Ennis ever had, and it's that loss that really makes me cry for him.

(Katherine, if you see this, your last post was very well put. I didn't realize you were such a romantic! And I mean that sincerely and in the best possible way!)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Why thanks, Jeff! That's nice of you to say. I was about to say that everybody here must be a romantic. But come to think of it, I'm usually not -- this movie really brought it out in me, and I've heard (or seen) other people say the same.

And you're so right, the soul mate/best friend part is the saddest. Losing a soul mate is tragic under any circumstances, and losing a best friend is particularly sad for Ennis, a man who has no other close friends and probably never will. The physical part is just the icing on the cake.


Offline JennyC

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Bump for reading or re-reading :)

Offline Katie77

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Gidday everyone....im new here to this board, and have just read some of the posts to this thread, and I want to tell you a story....a real story....

Back in 1958, when I was 7 yrs old, my father separated from my mother, so he could live with his male lover.In those days it was illegal to live as a homosexual, and so my dad and his partner told everyone that they were brothers. Dads partner changed his name by deed poll to dads name, so it was all legal, and people accepted that they were brothers.

When they first got together they travelled around australia for about 6 months, not staying in one place for more than a few weeks, but after that they finally bought a small property in a rural area, grew fruit, and became part of the community.All those years, and their friends and neighbours and business aquaintances, thought of them as brothers.

Even back then, my father was not ashamed of his sexuality, but it was because they risked prosecuition if their lifestyle became public.

Me and my sister, loved his partner like a big brother, and he loved us too, and used to take us to the movies and luna park and things like that.  It wasnt until i was 17 and about to be married, that my dad sat me down and actually told me that he and his partner were homosexual and that they were lovers...It didnt come as too much of a shock to me, because in my own way i think I knew there was something special about the two of them anyway, something that i had accepted most of my life, and had got used to anyway.I cant say it was easy growing up and having my dad meet some of my school friends and such, and me trying to explain who is partner was, i used to just say he was my uncle.

They were together for 14years, and it wasnt financial problems that happened between them, Dads partner, who had taken on the role of "housewife" in the relationship, started to get sick of being the "housewife"...cooking, cleaning, washing etc...and he asked a pen friend he had in south africa if she would like to come out and stay with them for a while.

Well stay she did, a romance of some sorts developed and she and dads partner married.

That left Dad as the odd man out, and so he left the home and went away to wander the country on his own.Eventually the loneliness became too much for him and he committed suicide.

I lost contact with dad's partner after that.

I guess that is why when i first saw the movie BBM, i walked out of the theatre thinking that someone had used part of my life for the story, it completely overwhelmed me with sadness.

But it made me do a couple of things, of which i am very proud of...you see, i never had to or needed to ever have to forgive my dad for being gay, to me it was not an issue...but i had NEVER forgiven him for taking his own life, but after seeing the movie, i finally realized the depth of his love for his partner, the agony he must have gone thru when it was over, and the despair of never being able to have it again. So i finally forgave him for putting an end to his own suffering, his own sadness.

Secondly, i used the net to find my dads ex-partner, and phoned him.I told him I had seen the movie and told him how much it affected me, and he was so happy to hear from me.He is still married to the same lady, although he did admit to me that he has always and will always have gay tendencies, but him and his wife have worked that out.He also told me that he has two sons, in their twenties, and one of them is gay and iving in a relationship with a young man. I have since visited him and his wife, and it was like seeing my long lost older brother...he is 60 now.We communicate reguarly now, and it is good to be able to talk to him about my dad, who he said, he never stopped loving, and being older now, I understand a lot of things a lot better now too.

So you can see why this wonderful movie touched me so much,and like everyone else, I wished that Ennis and Jack could have had a good safe life together...My mum went on to remarry and get on with her life, me and my sister, still grew up in a loving family, and knew that our dad loved us, and his partner loved us too.It could have happened for Jack and Ennis, and everyone would have survived.......

Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline opinionista

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Hi everyone,

Ever wondered what might have happened in our film if that cow and calf operation had really been born circa 1967?  Let's imagine for a second that Jack and Ennis had set up life together and pursued Jack's utopian ideal -- and then imagine that although society possibly did not accept them, it at least left them alone and let them somewhat prosper.  Could it have ever really worked, even if those external barriers were lifted?   

Not in my mind.  Ennis is his own nemesis, and I wonder how long it would have taken Jack to "quit." 

Anyone have any feelings on this or even on their own "quitting" or limits? 

rt

It would have been hard but that's not the point, IMO. Even if the little cow and calf operation would've failed Ennis and Jack would always have the sastisfaction of having tried it. They could've never changed society's homophobia, but at least they would've made a difference in their own lives. The idea of being together would've probably forced them to try harder, move someplace else where they could be together. I don't picture them dying from hunger. Besides, they could always go back to Lightning Flat and make a life there. But even if one of them was killed, as Ennis feared, it would've hurt but at least the reamining one would have some memories to live by. Ennis tragedy in my opinion is that he realizes too late what Jack really meant to him. Then he finds himself all alone with a life full of regrets, and a very few memories of Jack. That's why in the end he says "I swear...", apologizing to Jack for the way he treated him, and not letting him know how much he loved him. Ennis spent his life away from Jack fearing death, but death came anyway and took away what he loved the most.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2006, 11:44:42 am by opinionista »
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Offline opinionista

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Gidday everyone....im new here to this board, and have just read some of the posts to this thread, and I want to tell you a story....a real story....

Back in 1958, when I was 7 yrs old, my father separated from my mother, so he could live with his male lover.In those days it was illegal to live as a homosexual, and so my dad and his partner told everyone that they were brothers. Dads partner changed his name by deed poll to dads name, so it was all legal, and people accepted that they were brothers.

When they first got together they travelled around australia for about 6 months, not staying in one place for more than a few weeks, but after that they finally bought a small property in a rural area, grew fruit, and became part of the community.All those years, and their friends and neighbours and business aquaintances, thought of them as brothers.

Even back then, my father was not ashamed of his sexuality, but it was because they risked prosecuition if their lifestyle became public.

Me and my sister, loved his partner like a big brother, and he loved us too, and used to take us to the movies and luna park and things like that.  It wasnt until i was 17 and about to be married, that my dad sat me down and actually told me that he and his partner were homosexual and that they were lovers...It didnt come as too much of a shock to me, because in my own way i think I knew there was something special about the two of them anyway, something that i had accepted most of my life, and had got used to anyway.I cant say it was easy growing up and having my dad meet some of my school friends and such, and me trying to explain who is partner was, i used to just say he was my uncle.

They were together for 14years, and it wasnt financial problems that happened between them, Dads partner, who had taken on the role of "housewife" in the relationship, started to get sick of being the "housewife"...cooking, cleaning, washing etc...and he asked a pen friend he had in south africa if she would like to come out and stay with them for a while.

Well stay she did, a romance of some sorts developed and she and dads partner married.

That left Dad as the odd man out, and so he left the home and went away to wander the country on his own.Eventually the loneliness became too much for him and he committed suicide.

I lost contact with dad's partner after that.

I guess that is why when i first saw the movie BBM, i walked out of the theatre thinking that someone had used part of my life for the story, it completely overwhelmed me with sadness.

But it made me do a couple of things, of which i am very proud of...you see, i never had to or needed to ever have to forgive my dad for being gay, to me it was not an issue...but i had NEVER forgiven him for taking his own life, but after seeing the movie, i finally realized the depth of his love for his partner, the agony he must have gone thru when it was over, and the despair of never being able to have it again. So i finally forgave him for putting an end to his own suffering, his own sadness.

Secondly, i used the net to find my dads ex-partner, and phoned him.I told him I had seen the movie and told him how much it affected me, and he was so happy to hear from me.He is still married to the same lady, although he did admit to me that he has always and will always have gay tendencies, but him and his wife have worked that out.He also told me that he has two sons, in their twenties, and one of them is gay and iving in a relationship with a young man. I have since visited him and his wife, and it was like seeing my long lost older brother...he is 60 now.We communicate reguarly now, and it is good to be able to talk to him about my dad, who he said, he never stopped loving, and being older now, I understand a lot of things a lot better now too.

So you can see why this wonderful movie touched me so much,and like everyone else, I wished that Ennis and Jack could have had a good safe life together...My mum went on to remarry and get on with her life, me and my sister, still grew up in a loving family, and knew that our dad loved us, and his partner loved us too.It could have happened for Jack and Ennis, and everyone would have survived.......



Katie,

Thank you so much for telling your story. I'm very sorry to what happened to your Dad. Suicides are always hard to deal with. But you certainly are a strong woman, and I'm glad you've found a way to heal. A big hug for you.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline Sheyne

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Glad you posted this here, Sue... :)
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Offline YaadPyar

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Gidday everyone....im new here to this board, and have just read some of the posts to this thread, and I want to tell you a story....a real story....


Thank you so much for sharing this story, Katie.  It's the reality of what love unlived and unexpressed does to us and the people we know that hits so hard with BBM.  It's wonderful that there's been healing for you in all of this.  I'm always touched by BBM stories - it strengthens my committment to be someone who lives differently.

Thanks again and welcome.  So glad to have your voice and presence here.
"Vice, Virtue. It's best not to be too moral. You cheat yourself out of too much life. Aim above morality. If you apply that to life, then you're bound to live life fully." (Harold & Maude - 1971)

Offline maggiesmommy GayLee

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wow, Katie, i don't have the words...
i can't iamgine..that movie touched all of us so deeply, how must it have been for you..i hope you didn't see it alone...sorry about your dad...so so sorry...
you are an inspiration,,,,
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Offline serious crayons

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Katie, this just repeats what everyone else said, but thank you for sharing the story. It brought tears to my eyes, despite -- or maybe because of -- the matter-of-fact and even optimistic way you told it. Still, it must have been hard to go through. You have my admiration for what you have done with the experience.

I am glad to have you here in the BetterMost community.

Katherine

Offline Sheyne

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Katie's story gives a new perspective on stuff, hunh?
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Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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My god, friend,

I knew from your posts on yahoo there was a story there. I am glad you have told it. This is a powerful thing.

How wonderful you were able to find his partner and be in touch with him. In some ways we are fortunate for the times in which we live. I think your fathers story will be an important one to history and I encourage you to perserve it.
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

Offline Katie77

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Thank you all for your kind remarks, I appreciate your comments.

I have just re read what I wrote, and as one reply commented it does sound very "matter of fact".... I guess thats the way I look at it now, and probably looked at it then. When it was happening, it didnt seem like a tragedy, except for the fact that my parents separated, which is hard to handle for any child, no matter what the circumstances...and back then, having divorced parents wasnt as common as it is now, so that was more embarrassing to divulge to my friends.

Once I married, and had children of my own, I saw a different prospective of things...the gay thing still didnt bother me, (although I still did not tell people that my dad was gay)...but I could look at him now as a father, from a parent point of view, and realized that it was still best that he decided to lead the life he chose, mostly in fairness to my mother.

Now, when I think of my mother, she is my hero, she had the strength to let him go to lead the life that she, in those times, was not too sure about anyway.I do remember as a child, before they separated, having contact with a few lovely men who were visitors to our home, and in conversations I have had since, with my mum,been told that  they were my dad's friends, homosexuals, who were not only welcomed into our home by my dad, but by my mum as well....she actually tolerated it, in her marriage, until the time came for her to let go.

I think of how frightened she must have been in those times, to be alone with a 7yr old and a 10yr old daughter.We moved to Sydney, which was 100 miles away from where we had lived, (Dad and his new partner also moved to Sydney too).

Remember we are talking about the late 50's here....My mum got full time work on an assembly line in a factory, we lived in one room in a boarding house for a while, then some small flats (apartments), until, about 12months later my mum met my future step-father, who with mum, bought a house, where i lived with them until i married.Dad was always welcome to the house to visit, and on many occassions, he and his partner were invited to Christmas Dinner with us.(so the thanksgiving dinner scene in the movie, was similar to what our christmas dinner table was like).

When Dad took his life, my mum was very sad, and grieved his passing.

I think the thing that makes mum my hero, is the fact that she didnt tell me anything about my dad, until I started asking her questions about him.There were a few occassions when she got angry with him about decisions with us kids, and they had an argument, but she still didnt use her anger to put shit on him.I realize what a strong woman she has been, it must not have been easy for her. She is 80 this year, and widowed, but about six months ago, she met up with a man in the village she was living in, and now her and him have moved into their own private unit in town, and are like a couple of school kids together...he is 89....she is very very happy....and I think the reason for that is she still has the ability and the emotions to feel love and companionship, so its no wonder she is my hero.

So, I concede that my life hasnt been what you would call, a "normal" one, but, I have had two wonderful parents who had plenty of love for each other, their partners and their children, and I dont mean to end this on a sad note, but the only tragedy in my life, was losing my sister in 1971, when she was 22yrs old, in a boating accident, that was the tragedy of my family, and that is what saddens me the most, because that was so unfair, and she deserved to be here longer than 22 yrs, thats for sure.....

I also want to say, that since seeing the movie, and then joining the message board fraternity, I have written more about my life story, than even more than my closest friends ever knew, and it therefore made me recognise that I should be telling them my story too, and so I have done that now, and as close friends do, they have embraced me, with love and understanding, and gratitude for trusting them enough, to divulge all my "hidden secrets".

Thank you all here too, for doing the same.....and once again, I go back to the fact, that one movie, one wonderful movie, has had so much influence on me...no wonder it is in my soul...
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline opinionista

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Hi everyone,

As some of you know, I'm a regular of the Ennis and Ellery thread over at CT. Today a topic came up which reminded me about something I've always been wondering ever since I read an interview with Jake Gyllenhaal about the movie. This is the quote from the interview that got me thinking:

Quote
Yeah. I think there's a part of him that wants to progress and wants to change and wants things to move forward, and is constantly kind of pushing Ennis to come out of his shell. But it's that dance between the two of them that I think makes the two of them fall in love. If Ennis were to completely come out of his shell, would the two of them still be in the relationship that they're in throughout the film? I don't know. But yeah, that is a big part...It was a struggle to keep that up while you're feeling lonely.
http://movies.radiofree.com/interviews/brokebac_jake_gyllenhaal.shtml

Well, it made me wonder that if Ennis and Jack had the chance to live the "sweet life" if it would've actually worked, considering their actual circumstances. I mean their poverty, the rural homophobia, their frame of mind, divorce and child support duties, etc. Before you give me hell, I'd like to explain that something I have learned from my experiences in the love department is that sometimes what makes you fall in love with someone is not enough to make a relationship work. We will never know, of course, if they would've made it as a live in couple, but it's something hasn't come up in the in the endless discussions about their relationship. I don't think it has, anyway.

Would it have worked? I wonder. It's hard enough to keep a long distance relationship going, but it is even harder to make it work under the same roof. I don't know, but this is something I have always wondered. What do you think?

PS. If this topic was already discussed, please let me know via pm before actually posting and I'll delete it. I looked for it, and didn't find it. I even used the site's search engine, and got 0 results.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline delalluvia

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Well, it made me wonder that if Ennis and Jack had the chance to live the "sweet life" if it would've actually worked, considering their actual circumstances. I mean their poverty, the rural homophobia, their frame of mind, divorce and child support duties, etc. Before you give me hell, I'd like to explain that something I have learned from my experiences in the love department is that sometimes what makes you fall in love with someone is not enough to make a relationship work. We will never know, of course, if they would've made it as a live in couple, but it's something hasn't come up in the in the endless discussions about their relationship. I don't think it has, anyway.

Would it have worked?

Would the relationship in a sweeter life lasted?  I think so.  What you mentioned that 'made them fall in love' is also what keeps people together.  I think the stats say that people who stay together are those who share the same kind of background and values.  Jack and Ennis had that.  That's one reason why Ennis was able to come out of his shell with Jack.  They shared a great deal.  Jack knew how to 'deal' with Ennis and he was also charismatic enough to attract and keep Ennis' interest for years.  I think more contact would have made him come out more and more and it would have worked.  Jack was nothing if not persistant.  He wouldn't have stopped trying to keep the relationship going.

Offline ednbarby

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Interesting topic, Natali.  I think that if it's been discussed, it was a long time ago so it's worth a retread.

I often think that although I was passionately in love with two different young men at different times before I met my husband, had I married either of them we'd have been done long ago.  We had knock-down, drag-out fights not unlike Ennis' and Jack's at the lake, but regularly.  And with one of them, I had a long-distance relationship for 2 years.

It's hard to say.  But my guess would be that they'd make it (but only in a perfect world) because they not only had the passion - they had the friendship that comes from having such similar backgrounds and having experienced such similar heartbreaks and hardships so young.

When I look at those two guys in my life - honestly, I had little to nothing in common with either of them.  Their experiences, tastes, and goals in life were vastly different from my own.  Not so with Ennis and Jack.  That's what makes it so tragic, I think - that deep down, we realize that in a perfect world, they probably would have made it.  And been one of those lifelong love stories that warm your heart - like the little old man and lady you see walking hand in hand every once in a great while and you know they've been together forever - not break it.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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In general, I agree with Del and Barb.

On the other hand, a lot of relationships come to grief over mundane matters, money in particular. If they'd managed to set up that little cow and calf operation and made a success of it, I think they would have had a chance. If the ranch had failed, I honestly don't know if the relationship could have withstood the stress. Possibly it would not have, but I'd like to think that it would have.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline delalluvia

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In general, I agree with Del and Barb.

On the other hand, a lot of relationships come to grief over mundane matters, money in particular....If the ranch had failed, I honestly don't know if the relationship could have withstood the stress. Possibly it would not have, but I'd like to think that it would have.

I don't think this would have been a problem either.  They were both brought up in near poverty.  Ennis especially.  Having a failing business would have just sent them out to be cowhands/sheep herders again, doing anything to keep the place going/money coming in because that's how they've lived their whole lives.

Offline serious crayons

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I'm enough of a romantic to believe their relationship would have worked. The ranch, I'm not so sure. But Ennis was used to poverty, and Jack seemed willing to go back to it. He might end up complaining about it a lot. But eventually Jack would inherit the Twist ranch.

As for homophobia, Ennis would be paranoid, but Jack would be reassuring, and they both would know they could not be happier anywhere else.

Maybe an even bigger problem would be keeping in contact with their kids. In them days, I think their living together would endanger those relationships, especially with the kids who were still minors. But Alma Jr., for one, would have made sure they kept in touch, I think.

Offline welliwont

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Yeah, I think it would have worked out in the long run.  For lots of the reasons that have already been stated, common background, used to poverty, etc etc.

If only that stupid Ennis had allowed himself and Jack to go for that sweet life, I think that they would have lasted because Jack would have kept things going no matter what.  Boo Ennis!   :-\  All we got now is Jack and Ennis fanfic!

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Offline nakymaton

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I think it depends on a lot of things.

First, whether the Twist ranch worked out. (Are we dealing with movie-OMT, who seems more interested in just having reliable help, or with story-OMT, who I, at least, think is still homophobic?)

Second, at any ranch, on what Jack's reason was for being crazy to leave Lightning Flat. Was it a matter of being gay and lonely, or was it partly a matter of not liking ranch life? (I mean, it sounds idyllic, but it's hard work. Jack knows it... but he also wanted to leave it and join the rodeo circuit. How much of a thrill-seeker was Jack?)

Third, whether the ranch succeeded or failed economically. I think it would have been easier on them if they had their own place than if they were always looking for jobs working for someone else. Ranches are folding these days, a lot, and the work that Jack and Ennis grew up doing might get harder to find. And even if they didn't face actual physical violence, they would almost certainly have had to face bigotry and bias and low-level hostility, day-in and day-out. The more people they had to deal with, the more they would have to face homophobia.

Fourth, how would they have dealt with being separated from their kids.

Fifth, if the ranch didn't work out, whether they could bear to move to someplace like Denver in the end.

I don't tend to see relationships as doomed to either success or failure from the start. Not if both people are willing to stick it out and work on it and everything. I think that if Ennis could somehow overcome his internalized homophobia and agree to living with Jack, that he would be incredibly loyal and willing to work through just about anything. Jack, hmmm. Depends on whether we're talking about story-Jack or movie-Jack. I think that movie-Jack would probably have dealt with things if he knew he had Ennis (though he would bitch a lot, and be really cute about it, too ;) ). Story-Jack I'm not so sure about, partly because it's a bit harder to be sure exactly what makes him tick.

I think they could have made the relationship work out, though, and still had a pretty rough or sad life. (Not being able to see the kids, or having to leave Wyoming, would be sad endings of a sort, too, at least IMO.)
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Here's a link to the "Would a Sweet Life Ever Have Been Possible" topic started by rt, but it's fine with me to start a new topic.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1011.0

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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Second, at any ranch, on what Jack's reason was for being crazy to leave Lightning Flat. Was it a matter of being gay and lonely, or was it partly a matter of not liking ranch life? (I mean, it sounds idyllic, but it's hard work. Jack knows it... but he also wanted to leave it and join the rodeo circuit. How much of a thrill-seeker was Jack?)

Maybe he really just wanted to get away from his old man. The little cow and calf operation was his idea.

Not to change the subject, but has anyone ever commented on the fact that Jack took up the same rodeo event has his old man? Was that one more failed attempt to win his father's approval?
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Offline souxi

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For afar more realistic, IMO of how life would have been for Jack and Ennis if they had decided to get a life together, read this on LJ. Very good story.

http://lovehurts4ever.livejournal.com/9501.html#cutid1

Thats the link to chapter one. There are currently 41.

Offline opinionista

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I don't tend to see relationships as doomed to either success or failure from the start. Not if both people are willing to stick it out and work on it and everything. I think that if Ennis could somehow overcome his internalized homophobia and agree to living with Jack, that he would be incredibly loyal and willing to work through just about anything. Jack, hmmm. Depends on whether we're talking about story-Jack or movie-Jack. I think that movie-Jack would probably have dealt with things if he knew he had Ennis (though he would bitch a lot, and be really cute about it, too ;) ). Story-Jack I'm not so sure about, partly because it's a bit harder to be sure exactly what makes him tick.


I don't think their relationship was doomed from the beginning. I'm just wondering that  given the circumstances they were in when they met four years later, if they'd be able to have a long lasting relationship under the same roof. IMO if they had hooked up from the very beginning, I mean, right after coming down from Brokeback, the chances to have a successful life together were greater because at 19 years old with no strings attached they'd be more free to travel around looking for work and such. I even imagine Ennis willing to go down to Texas with Jack to do rodeo and stuff.

But after getting married and having kids, those chances were dimmer IMO, at least in rural America. If they had been someplace else, say New York or San Francisco, it'll be a whole different story. But in rural America they would've need to work hard, probably harder than any of us at this moment to make it as a couple, and not just because of the poverty. Ennis at least, would have to quit his daughters in order to be with Jack, and that is painful. No matter how happy Ennis can feel being with Jack, losing his daughters is a painful situation that puts a lot of strains in a relationship. I just don't picture Alma allowing Ennis to stay in their daughters' lives while living with Jack under the same roof. No way. And the worst part is that any judge will side with Alma on this. 

Also, some of you have stated that Jack was willing to go back to being poor in order to be with Ennis. And he was. I agree with that. However, I wonder if he'd last a month living in a beat up trailer, having to pee in the sink as Ennis does in the beginning of the short story. I think not, not after being years living as a rich man down in Texas. I don't picture him working long hours under the sun in some ranch either. Jack didn't like ranch work. I don't think he did. He could've stayed in Wyoming working in ranch instead of travelling to Texas to do rodeoing, but he didn't. As for inheriting his dad's ranch, I've always wondered how come he didn't tell this to Ennis when he brought up the idea of the little cow and calf operation. He doesn't even tell Ennis about building a cabin and help his father on the ranch. This is something Ennis hears from Jack's dad and not from Jack himself. Jack only talked about LD giving him money to disappear. IMO Jack didn't think inheriting his father's ranch was something he could actually count on in order to pursue a life with Ennis.

Before you give me hell, I'm not trying to downplay the possibility of Ennis and Jack being happy. I'm not saying that they didn't love each other enough to be happy. I'm just wondering what would be the real-life scenario for two gay men in love, poor, divorced and with kids, like Jack and Ennis, in rural America.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 10:52:50 am by opinionista »
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline Penthesilea

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I, too, think it would have worked. For all the reasons others have mentioned before: similar background and values, they shared many things and completed each other in other aspects. They had a great love for each other that lasted through 20 difficult years. I don't think that living together would have been more difficult than living apart.
And, additionally, I'm a romantic and believe that there are people who are meant to be with and for each other. THE one person in the world who is meant for you and vice versa, no matter what. And I think this is what Ennis and Jack were for each other.


But when? When they were 19, not parting after Brokeback? Maybe. But both were so young and unexperienced then. They were both still teenagers.
In general, I think that you have to be older than that to be mature enough for lifelong commitments.
On the other side, my husband and I were 17, going on 18 when we came together. And it works for more than 20 years now. So it is possible. But we had not to fight homophobia (internalized and from other people) and poverty with little prospects. ("Pair of deuces, going nowhere").

After the reunion? Yes, I think it could have worked then. But I can't see Ennis leaving his family at this time, the girls still so little. Just for the sake of discussion: even if he hadn't been in love with another man, but another woman (ot there was no homophobia at all in the world) and all his fears and demons wouldn't have had a voice, he still would have stuck with what he got. Out of loyalty and  duteousness.

After the divorce? Yes. I guess the post divorce scene is the moment in the movie when we all want to yell at Ennis: go for it, don't let Jack down again. This is your chance!

Later, at any time between divorce and lake scene? Yes.
At the end, around or after the lake scene? Again: yes. We've discussed the "What if Jack hadn't died?" many times and I'm still convinced that Ennis was almost there, almost had made all the way around the coffeepot, had almost found the handle (paraphrasing Lee here, because her analogy is so beautiful, hope you don't mind. BTW: Amanda (?) once said something about 'creating our own Brokieisms' and this phrasing is definately one. I've seen it couple of times).
 


Marge_Innavera

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sometimes what makes you fall in love with someone is not enough to make a relationship work. We will never know, of course, if they would've made it as a live in couple, but it's something hasn't come up in the in the endless discussions about their relationship. I don't think it has, anyway.

Would it have worked? I wonder. It's hard enough to keep a long distance relationship going, but it is even harder to make it work under the same roof. I don't know, but this is something I have always wondered. What do you think?

I think generally, they would have been very good for each other. If Ennis could have lifted his head out of the homophobic pit long enough, there would have been several options even at that time and place. Two that I can think of would have been for one of them to nominally lease a ranch with the other as "foreman" or for them to build that cabin in Lightning Flat. Or if they decided on a compromise, Ennis could have stayed in Riverton until his child support payments were done and Jack get a place in a larger town within reasonable driving distance.  Such as Casper, or maybe Laramie if Ennis' sister was still living in Casper and he didn't want to risk her finding out.

They probably would have both had some surprises, but that's a universal experience when people marry or start living together.  As I've said elsewhere previously, Ennis has the idea that they'd be at risk because "this thing" could grab hold of them in public. Wouldn't happen!  Not with day-to-day life together, no matter how much passion you have between you; but they would have to be very careful about small mannerisms, touches, even some pet nicknames depending on what they are.

And Jack is naive enough to say in the reunion scene that "it could be just like this always." Not likely! But they would certainly get more long term satisfaction if they stuck to it.  That age-old principle: long-term but lower-intensity satisfactions vs. intense but transient ones.

Very good topic.

Offline nakymaton

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As for inheriting his dad's ranch, I've always wondered how come he didn't tell this to Ennis when he brought up the idea of the little cow and calf operation. He doesn't even tell Ennis about building a cabin and help his father on the ranch. This is something Ennis hears from Jack's dad and not from Jack himself. Jack only talked about LD giving him money to disappear. IMO Jack didn't think inheriting his father's ranch was something he could actually count on in order to pursue a life with Ennis.

There's an interesting story/movie difference in Jack's proposal of the "cow and calf operation." In the story, Ennis interrupts Jack in the middle of the proposal:

"You won't catch me again," said Jack. "Listen. I'm thinkin, tell you what, if you and me had a little ranch together, little cow and calf operation, your horses, it'd be some sweet life. Like I said, I'm gettin out a rodeo. I ain't no broke-dick rider but I don't got the bucks a ride out this slump I'm in and I don't got the bones a keep gettin wrecked. I got it figured, got this plan, Ennis, how we can do it, you and me. Lureen's old man, you bet he'd give me a bunch if I'd get lost. Already more or less said it -- "

"Whoa, whoa, whoa. It ain't goin a be that way..."


So Jack mentions Lureen's dad's money, but doesn't say it's for a down payment. And he never gets around to describing the plan. So maybe, if Ennis hadn't jumped in there, story-Jack was going to explain about Lightning Flat.

(But I don't know. I mean, Jack's father is so awful in the story.)

In the movie, Jack does lay out his whole plan, complete with Lureen's father providing the down payment on the imaginary ranch, and then there's this pause before Ennis responds. It isn't clear to me why movie-Jack never brings up Lightning Flat to Ennis. Was the plan unrealistic? Did Jack only start imagining Lightning Flat as an option later on? Did Jack have a whole bunch of competing dreams that he imagined at different times? I don't know.
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Marge_Innavera

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Ennis at least, would have to quit his daughters in order to be with Jack, and that is painful. No matter how happy Ennis can feel being with Jack, losing his daughters is a painful situation that puts a lot of strains in a relationship. I just don't picture Alma allowing Ennis to stay in their daughters' lives while living with Jack under the same roof. No way. And the worst part is that any judge will side with Alma on this.  

That would happen at the time; but what would happen in later years is less clear, as (1) times did change after Ennis and Jack first met; not that homophobia isn't still rampant. But racism is too; and the days of segregated lunch counters and interrcial marriage being called "miscegenation" are far behind us. And (2) Ennis' daughters being subject to Alma's decisions obviously wouldn't last beyond their 18th birthdays. After that, who knows? They might have grown up believing that their father had just deserted them or one or both of them might have decided to look up the dad who had left when they were so young and satisfy their curiosity.

Also, if they'd started living together in the mid-late 1960s, which is when Jack first proposes it, I doubt they'd be doing so openly. Even in cities, there would be problems and dangers. Painful as it might be, they could have made arrangements for Jack to not be there when the daughters visited. Actually, even today in some states heterosexual couples have to do that if they don't want to put the visitation arrangements in jeapordy.

I don't agree with the comments that they could have managed only in a perfect world, or even a better one. Both individuals and relationships manage to thrive under very hostile circumstances but if they'd stayed in rural Wyoming I suspect it would take some subterfuge and careful planning even today.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 11:34:26 am by Marge_Innavera »

Offline nakymaton

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Maybe he really just wanted to get away from his old man. The little cow and calf operation was his idea.

True. But some people throw out wild ideas that they don't actually want to live with, not in reality. And Jack seems like he could be one of those people, from the way both Jack's father and Lureen comment on Jack's ideas not working out, in both the story and the movie. (Of course, the saddest thing is watching Ennis's awareness that he kept Jack's dream from coming true. I haven't watched the movie in a month or so, and I'm still tearing up just thinking about it. That little hint of a smile through tears that Ennis gets whenever someone describes Jack's dreams...  :'( :'( :'( )

Quote
Not to change the subject, but has anyone ever commented on the fact that Jack took up the same rodeo event has his old man? Was that one more failed attempt to win his father's approval?

That's a really good question. I think it's come up, along with the fact that Jack still keeps going up to Lightning Flat every year and helping out. And I wonder, sometimes, if Jack told his father about Ennis in some kind of attempt to get his father to accept him (Jack). As if Jack could offer his father the help he needed on the ranch, and get his father to see Jack in a better light as a result.
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Offline opinionista

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There's an interesting story/movie difference in Jack's proposal of the "cow and calf operation." In the story, Ennis interrupts Jack in the middle of the proposal:

"You won't catch me again," said Jack. "Listen. I'm thinkin, tell you what, if you and me had a little ranch together, little cow and calf operation, your horses, it'd be some sweet life. Like I said, I'm gettin out a rodeo. I ain't no broke-dick rider but I don't got the bucks a ride out this slump I'm in and I don't got the bones a keep gettin wrecked. I got it figured, got this plan, Ennis, how we can do it, you and me. Lureen's old man, you bet he'd give me a bunch if I'd get lost. Already more or less said it -- "

"Whoa, whoa, whoa. It ain't goin a be that way..."


So Jack mentions Lureen's dad's money, but doesn't say it's for a down payment. And he never gets around to describing the plan. So maybe, if Ennis hadn't jumped in there, story-Jack was going to explain about Lightning Flat.

(But I don't know. I mean, Jack's father is so awful in the story.)

In the movie, Jack does lay out his whole plan, complete with Lureen's father providing the down payment on the imaginary ranch, and then there's this pause before Ennis responds. It isn't clear to me why movie-Jack never brings up Lightning Flat to Ennis. Was the plan unrealistic? Did Jack only start imagining Lightning Flat as an option later on? Did Jack have a whole bunch of competing dreams that he imagined at different times? I don't know.

Thank you! I didn't notice it. It puts the whole situation in a different perspective then. It means that maybe Jack wasn't so much of a dreamer as he is portrayed in the movie, and that he did have a coherent and reliable plan for a ranch operation. But who knows.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline ednbarby

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I like to think that John Twist would have so wanted/needed help on the ranch, and from two young men instead of just one who in his mind can never do anything right to boot, that he'd have been willing to mostly look the other way about their relationship.  Oh, he'd have bitched and snickered about it, and probably mostly to Jack's poor mom, but he'd have looked the other way to get that help.  I think Jack knew that.  And I think he was just floating the idea of their own little cow and calf operation to test the waters with Ennis.  If he'd have gone for it, Jack would have clarified that it was his father's ranch he was thinking they could "whip into shape" and make profitable again, and that when Old Man Twist kicked off, it'd be all theirs.

And I absolutely think he took to bull riding in an attempt to impress his Dad.  Or show him up.  Or more than likely both.  The line "He kept his secrets to himself, never taught me a thing, never once come to see me ride" and the bitterness with which it's said pretty says it all.
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Offline serious crayons

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I kind of breezed over this in my earlier posts, but the more I think about it the more I realize that the day-to-day homophobia would be really hard for Ennis (and maybe even Jack) to deal with.

We are positing some kind of transformation, I guess, that would enable Ennis to agree to the plan in the first place. But it's hard to imagine him developing a thick enough skin to stand being, as Earl and Rich were, "the joke of town." I think the potential looks, whispers, laughing, harassment, physical abuse (even if it stopped short of horrific violence) or whatever would be hard for anyone to face, day after day, year after year. Let alone someone who's kind of proud and private and shy, like Ennis. Or would he having to constantly beat people up, as with the bikers?

In that respect, they'd be better off in Denver. But there they'd have an employment problem. Ennis could probably get some kind of untrained job, but he wouldn't be happy working off a ranch for very long (judging from his expression in the pavement-spreading scene). Jack, however, could work in sales, and that might be OK for him.

Offline nakymaton

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In that respect, they'd be better off in Denver. But there they'd have an employment problem. Ennis could probably get some kind of untrained job, but he wouldn't be happy working off a ranch for very long (judging from his expression in the pavement-spreading scene). Jack, however, could work in sales, and that might be OK for him.

City life would be really rough on Ennis, I think. I mean -- he didn't finish high school. He's farsighted enough that he doesn't enjoy reading. And he loves animals -- I mean, what's the third thing he calls "little darling" in the book, besides his daughters and Jack? So no horses, no daughters, construction work, friggin lights and car horns going the whole damn night (oops, I'm projecting a bit here). So I could see Ennis living with Jack in the city (and Jack would totally be working in sales ;D ), and still being in love with Jack, and also being really profoundly sad about the other things he had to give up.
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Offline serious crayons

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All things considered, I really think their best bet might have been for Jack to buy a house near Riverton. That way they could be together a lot -- seemingly as "friends," hanging out -- but Ennis could still keep his job, his daughters and hopefully his peace of mind.

Does this sound too spineless or timid of me? In an ideal world, it would be nice if they could boldly assert their right to live and love the way they want to, and hopefully break down some prejudices along the way. But that's a tough way to live, especially for a guy like Ennis. This seems to me the best way to overcome the difficulties mentioned in the posts above while still enjoying a pretty sweet life.

  :-\

Offline Front-Ranger

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Hey, I'm in Denver, and I'm in sales  8)!! Jack could commute an hour or so (he's used to commutin) from the Castle Rock area, there are plenty of horse ranches and little cow&calf operations down there! Hey, we could make this work!!
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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(and Jack would totally be working in sales ;D )

Used cars?  ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline nakymaton

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Hey, no hogging Jack, Lee. ;D

They can live down here with me. There's a ranch across the road that could use a new foreman. ;D

(Wanna wrestle for them? ;D )

(Jeff: ;D The scary thing is, there's an unwritten BBM AU fanfic in the back of my head in which Jack and Ennis end up in Denver... and Jack's a used car salesman. It's been in my head since January.  :o )
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Used cars?  ;D

Oh Lord...Read "Somebody New", used truck salesman!!!

Offline serious crayons

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Hey, no hogging Jack, Lee. ;D

They can live down here with me. There's a ranch across the road that could use a new foreman. ;D

Nah. I really think they'd be happiest in Chicago. Because, um, well ... wait a minute -- even I'm not that happy in Chicago!

 ;D

(Apologies to all Chicago residents; nothing against the city, but I'm still new here and having transition issues.)

Offline nakymaton

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I think the rule has to be: you can keep Jack and Ennis if you want. Just, whatever you do, don't make them live in the closet. Enough with the damn closet.
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It WOULD work if Jack became a female impersonator doing shows in the Vegas strip.  That way, Ennis and he could go out to dinner in public :)

Offline Penthesilea

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All things considered, I really think their best bet might have been for Jack to buy a house near Riverton. That way they could be together a lot -- seemingly as "friends," hanging out -- but Ennis could still keep his job, his daughters and hopefully his peace of mind.

I've often wondered why this solution comes so rarely up in discussions - and never between Ennis and Jack (so far we can tell).
Any Kind of compomise: why didn't Jack divorce (in the later years) and start a ranch on his own near Riverton?  Maybe an one or two hours drive away? Or find himself a salesjob? He asked Ennis to move to Texas, but he himself did not make a move.
Ot both could have moved to an area in the middle of Childress and Riverton. I'm sure there's plenty of rural country between. Even if they had lived in two neighbour villages, it would have been better than what they had.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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All those trips Jack makes to Lightning Flat to help out his old man, even though the old man despises him? That's one of the things I admire the most about Jack.

I'm an only child, too.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline ednbarby

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Ah, but there was always the dance they did.  Jack was so crushed after Ennis blew him off after the divorce, it took him a whole helluva lot of time to work up the courage to even suggest Ennis leave Riverton - and even then, he only did it because he saw an opportunity in it from Ennis saying he felt exposed, basically, in Riverton.  And knowing how exposed Ennis felt there, at that point Jack must have thought Riverton wasn't an option - that the only way he'd get him to budge would be to get him "outta there."
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Offline ednbarby

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All those trips Jack makes to Lightning Flat to help out his old man, even though the old man despises him? That's one of the things I admire the most about Jack.

I'm an only child, too.

I admire it, too.  And it reminds me of my husband and all the trips he took up to Columbus, Georgia over the last few years to help his old man take care of his ailing mother, and in the last year to help his now ailing father.  He's not an only child, but he's the oldest of three, and has for whatever reasons always cared a whole lot more about what his father thinks of him than his siblings do.
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Scott6373

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Ok, this is a serious reposne to this.

Since I am not sure of the sex (or sexual leaning) of everyone who has responded thus far, please forgive the generlization.

We are talking about 1983.  I am gay and in 1983, there was no way I could have been in any kind of openly gay relationship (and I was out then), and I lived in Boston.  Gay men and women and those with transgender issues, were tolerated, but still hidden, and still considered socially deviant.  "Will and Grace" was a long way off.

It is a tough thing not to impose out modern day sensibilites on the situation back in 1983, either for me or for the fictional Ennis and Jack in their rural setting, which no doubt was far more oppresive than where I was.

That being said, Ennis would never had a moment to breathe easy let alone come to terms with his sexuality.  He could barely acknowledge the love he had for Jack, until forced to by Jack's death.

While the love they felt was certainly enough to sustain a relationship, emotional, and societal pressures would have surely driven them apart eventually.  Neither one had enough emotional stability to forge ahead despite the oppostino they would face.  I had seen that happen to many of my friedns back then.  It happened to me.

It's just a fact of life 25 or so years ago, that gay relationships were not supported or condoned, and they were always outed eventually.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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I think Ennis and Jack would have worked. Their compatability was established in the first few days in their relationship. They may not have been able to be together until after their kids were grown and had Jack managed to keep himself alive they would have ended up together.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline serious crayons

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We are talking about 1983.  I am gay and in 1983, there was no way I could have been in any kind of openly gay relationship (and I was out then), and I lived in Boston.  Gay men and women and those with transgender issues, were tolerated, but still hidden, and still considered socially deviant.  "Will and Grace" was a long way off.

It is a tough thing not to impose out modern day sensibilites on the situation back in 1983, either for me or for the fictional Ennis and Jack in their rural setting, which no doubt was far more oppresive than where I was.

I'm glad you said this, Scott. I think people tend to criticize Ennis for not accepting Jack's plan, as if it would have been a simple, carefree decision had he not been so obstinate and selfish and inconsiderate and unable to appreciate what he had.

Ennis did, indeed, struggle with internalized homophobia, and that is sad. But when we disregard the real obstacles they would have faced as a couple, and Ennis' pragmatic awareness of them, we are applying our contemporary attitudes to a very different time and place.

Offline ednbarby

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I'm glad you said this, Scott. I think people tend to criticize Ennis for not accepting Jack's plan, as if it would have been a simple, carefree decision had he not been so obstinate and selfish and inconsiderate and unable to appreciate what he had.

Ennis did, indeed, struggle with internalized homophobia, and that is sad. But when we disregard the real obstacles they would have faced as a couple, and Ennis' pragmatic awareness of them, we are applying our contemporary attitudes to a very different time and place.

I agree.  We can't be too hard on poor Ennis.  He was not merely being selfish or foolish.  He was fearing for his life and Jack's and had every reason to do so - even more reason than anyone else, including Jack, given his experience.  And the time and place, of course.

My answer here assumed that they lived in a much more perfect world than they really did.  It was really entirely hypothetical.  I looked at it like this: if the (very formidable) obstacles were removed, would their love have been as intense, or were the obstacles part of what made their love so intense?
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Offline serious crayons

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My answer here assumed that they lived in a much more perfect world than they really did.

Where bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring?  :)

Under those conditions, I bet their love would be like most couples'. The obstacles probably did intensify the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings. If they were together for the long haul, the love probably wouldn't be as intensely passionate, but could easily be strong and secure and lasting.

Offline opinionista

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I'm glad you said this, Scott. I think people tend to criticize Ennis for not accepting Jack's plan, as if it would have been a simple, carefree decision had he not been so obstinate and selfish and inconsiderate and unable to appreciate what he had.

Ennis did, indeed, struggle with internalized homophobia, and that is sad. But when we disregard the real obstacles they would have faced as a couple, and Ennis' pragmatic awareness of them, we are applying our contemporary attitudes to a very different time and place.


IMO Ennis turns Jack down for several reasons. His internal homophobia was just one of those reasons, perhaps the strongest one but certainly not the only one. Despite of his internal turmoils, Ennis was a down to earth person, unlike Jack who was more of a dreamer.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline delalluvia

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Ok, this is a serious reposne to this.

Since I am not sure of the sex (or sexual leaning) of everyone who has responded thus far, please forgive the generlization.

We are talking about 1983.  I am gay and in 1983, there was no way I could have been in any kind of openly gay relationship (and I was out then), and I lived in Boston.  Gay men and women and those with transgender issues, were tolerated, but still hidden, and still considered socially deviant.  "Will and Grace" was a long way off.

It is a tough thing not to impose out modern day sensibilites on the situation back in 1983, either for me or for the fictional Ennis and Jack in their rural setting, which no doubt was far more oppresive than where I was.

It's just a fact of life 25 or so years ago, that gay relationships were not supported or condoned, and they were always outed eventually.

In the early 80's, my mother took me to school near the gay part of town.  There were plenty of men walking hand in hand and having relationships, being 'married' and living in homes together.  It was a well-known fact that the pharmacist in our neighborhood drug store was gay and that he had a 'husband' who wore a ring and came to the store from time to time to speak to him.  It wasn't a secret, it was quite open and quite obvious.  Perhaps it depends on where you lived?

You know...something strange just popped in my head.  I hadn't thought about this in years.  I know how people talk about 'Ellen', 'Will and Grace' and other gay themed shows and the gay cable channel as a recent phenomenon, but you know I distinctly remember as a child - years ago - watching a rerun of a pilot made-for TV movie that was made in the 70's.  I can't recall the name of the movie or who was in it.  I remember one actor, but I can't recall his name, anyway, the movie was shown on national TV, on the mainstream channels and it was about the lives of some people who lived in a high rise apartment.  One of the stories was about a young gay guy and his beautiful next door neighbor.  The gay man was having an affair with a married rich powerful doctor.  Anyway, the gist of the story is - at first, mistaken identity - the wife finds out, thinks the woman is the lover at first, then finds out her husband's lover is a man, and walks out laughing - laughing because the wife 'knows' she will win in the battle of love.

The young man attempts suicide when his lover leaves him but is rescued by his neighbor and his lover who -in the end - shows up in the lobby of the apartment building with his suitcase, clearly intending to move in with his lover!

Sorry that just popped in my head and it makes me wonder.  Mainstream American TV viewers 30+ years ago had to have been more liberal if TV execs back then thought this TV pilot was acceptable viewing.  I think viewers were more liberal back in the late 60's early 70's.  After all, Maude's character got an abortion on her TV show.  That would cause near rioting in the streets these days.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2006, 10:31:36 pm by delalluvia »

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Within the last couple of years I saw on Nick at Night a seldom rerun drama from the very early 1960's the I think stared Warren Beatty, when he was a very young man although I think he is older that Ennis and Jack would be now, In which he playe a gay character. Sorry thats all I remember.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2006, 09:22:40 am by jpwagoneer1964 »
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline Bucky

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By the time I fell in love with a guy it was 1984 and the tide was turning against the acceptability of the "gay lifestyle."  The so called "gay plague" was spreading in the United States and the televangelists and conservatives were blaming all of it on the gays in America claiming it was "God's judgement" on gay people for violating the Bible, etc.  We know now that it was a lie to blame AIDS on the gays as it has spread throughout the population of this country and other countries as well both heterosexual and homosexual.  It just happened that gays seemed to have gotten AIDS first so Scott is right about the time frame and the impact that it had on acceptance of people other than heterosexuals.  Also where you lived in the USA played a big part in whether you would be tolerated or hated.  I happen to live in a very conservative non-accepting area.  Homophobia or the fear of homophobia broke up my relationship. 

I live a rather peaceful live now and I am happy and did mention that I had been in touch with my ex partner.  He wanted to turn the time back twenty two years.  I couldn't agree to that and finally had to be rather firm in an email to him telling him that I would not attempt to reestablish a relationship that died twenty two years ago because of homophobia.  There were other things involved including him just bailing out on me altogether but homophobia scared him as it scared me.  I value my peaceful life to a mess that I would be in if I rekindled that relationship and  the truth is that it doesn't really hurt me to have told him a flat out NO like I thought it would.  I am still not ready for a relationship at this time.  Not because I love anyone else but because I value my independence and peace.  Some day that may change but not anytime soon I don't think.

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I really don't want to sound "preachy" or "activistic" about this, but the heterosexual community is just in the baby stages of understanding the gay community, and the struggles we have gone through.

I'm thrilled that I have lived long enough to see the strides we have made, but there is still MUCH to be done.

I live in Massachusetts and when the whole subject of same-sex marriage came up, I was actually opposed to it, because I believed and still do, that we have skipped over some of the fundamental issues in order to get to this one. 

The fact remains that in 1984, I was beaten badly (very badly) by a bunch of straight guys after I had left a gay bar in Boston...1984!  Last year, a man walked into a bar in New Bedford, MA with a machette (sp), and proceeded to hack AT PEOPLE...2005.

I love that so many of the hetersexual community are open to seeing us in a way other than has been painted for us n the past, but given the state of things now, and the state of things then, I firmly stand by my assertion that those two men would never been able to survive a relationship.

Offline ednbarby

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I love that so many of the hetersexual community are open to seeing us in a way other than has been painted for us n the past, but given the state of things now, and the state of things then, I firmly stand by my assertion that those two men would never been able to survive a relationship.

I agree wholeheartedly, Scott, I'm very sad to say.  That's why I've always seen Jack as a revolutionary.  Some think of him as just a dreamer.  But I see him as ready to follow through on a dream knowing full well it may very well cost him his life.  And he did that because he really believed that he could be the one who would make a difference, if nowhere else, at least in his own and his love's lives.

« Last Edit: September 15, 2006, 08:56:51 am by ednbarby »
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Also where you lived in the USA played a big part in whether you would be tolerated or hated.

This was and is a key issue. Thanks for mentioning it, Bucky.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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I agree wholeheartedly, Scott, I'm very sad to say.  That's why I've always seen Jack as a revolutionary.  Some think of him as just a dreamer.

Revolutions are born from dreams.

Offline ednbarby

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Revolutions are born from dreams.

Absolutely.  I think he took the dream one step further.  Or tried to.  And that's what revolutionaries do.

And there's nothing wrong with me.
This is how I'm supposed to be.
In a land of make-believe, they don't believe in me.


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Offline malina

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When I think of them working together on the mountain, I think it would have worked. They were symbiotic. They balanced each other. Think of the scene where their sheep get mixed up with the Chilean ones... Jack cursing Aguirre, Ennis being reasonable and telling him they just had to see it through. And then Jack accepts that because Ennis has a steadying influence on him.

I especially love how there are many instances, on the mountain, where Ennis looks after Jack... ordering soup, killing the elk, switching places, trying to set the tent up right. Of course it's reciprocated.. there are so many ways in which Jack looks after Ennis, too - getting him to open up, guiding and reassuring him through the second tent scene. Beautifully symbiotic, and really much more equal than their relationship becomes later on.

Later, I see more bickering, withholding, denial. I think there is certainly, ABSOLUTELY the potential that it 'would have worked'. I would hope that if they were living together and working together, they would fall into that easy partnership that they had up on the mountain. But I suppose a lot would depend on external circumstances and pressures, too.

Personally, though, I don't think the ultimate measure of whether something 'works out' is the living happily ever after. I think people come together because there is a reason behind their connection. They have something to learn from one another. Sometimes that ends before one's life ends, but that doesn't necessarily mean things didn't
'work out'. It might just mean the impetus behind your connection with that person has been fulfilled and has therefore ended. I think Jack and Ennis were learning from each other right up until Jack's death, and for Ennis, even afterwards. It didn't work out the way Jack wanted it to and no one can say for sure if it would have, but clearly something 'worked'...

Offline ednbarby

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Personally, though, I don't think the ultimate measure of whether something 'works out' is the living happily ever after. I think people come together because there is a reason behind their connection. They have something to learn from one another. Sometimes that ends before one's life ends, but that doesn't necessarily mean things didn't 'work out'. It might just mean the impetus behind your connection with that person has been fulfilled and has therefore ended. I think Jack and Ennis were learning from each other right up until Jack's death, and for Ennis, even afterwards. It didn't work out the way Jack wanted it to and no one can say for sure if it would have, but clearly something 'worked'...

Wow.  What a mature and healthy point of view.  I think too many people go through life never feeling fulfilled because they're always looking for that "happily ever after."  They don't realize that it's living in the now, as the Buddhists say, where you find your joy.  I have a good friend who is constantly struggling with this.  She agrees with me that her constant need for the next thing coming in her life to "make" her happy is the problem, but then she says "How do I fix that?"  All I can say is, "Well, STOP it."  Much easier said than done.

When Jack and Ennis were together, especially on the mountain, they felt that pure, unadulterated joy that comes with being truly connected and partnered with another person.  That paw the white out of the moon feeling.  You're right - as time went on and they drifted further apart, there was more bickering and strain because it was the being together that mattered, and their time apart was growing longer and longer with each passing year...

Welcome to our little corner of cyber space, by the way.  Hope you'll stick around.  :)


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Offline serious crayons

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Personally, though, I don't think the ultimate measure of whether something 'works out' is the living happily ever after. I think people come together because there is a reason behind their connection. They have something to learn from one another. Sometimes that ends before one's life ends, but that doesn't necessarily mean things didn't 'work out'.

I agree with this, too. I find it sad when somebody gets divorced or breaks up after 10 years or five years or whatever, and declares their marriage/relationship a "mistake." Do you mean those years of your life were a total waste, or did you have some happiness and good times? To me, unless it was all or mostly torture -- maybe if your partner abused you, say -- then think of it in terms of having had X number of good years. They ended, and now you're moving on to something else.

I apply this philosophy to Jack and Ennis. I get dismayed when people act as though, because they didn't live together, their relationship was a failure or not worthwhile or nothing but pain for either. True, it would have been better if they'd been able to spend much more time together. But the quality of the time they did have together over 20 years was much better than some people ever get.

Offline dly64

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I apply this philosophy to Jack and Ennis. I get dismayed when people act as though, because they didn't live together, their relationship was a failure or not worthwhile or nothing but pain for either. True, it would have been better if they'd been able to spend much more time together. But the quality of the time they did have together over 20 years was much better than some people ever get.

True. I certainly don’t see Jack’s and Ennis’ relationship as a failure or not being one of love and depth. But, being a person who goes through this kind of stuff in reality, there is a degree of truth in the statement about “nothing but pain for either.” I say this because there is no solution to their situation. Their relationship was bound to end tragically. I guess I would say it would be worth the pain to have stolen moments with the person who is the love of your life.

As for them having a good life together … I am the romantic kind, too. I believe it would work. I mean, we all have “dances” with the significant others in our lives, don’t we?
Diane

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Offline serious crayons

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I guess I would say it would be worth the pain to have stolen moments with the person who is the love of your life.

That's a good way to put it. You're right, they both did experience plenty of pain, and it's too bad they couldn't solve that.

What I object to is when people act as if the whole relationship counts for nothing unless they can live together.

Offline dly64

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What I object to is when people act as if the whole relationship counts for nothing unless they can live together.

Yes ... I agree. Living together is completely overrated!  ;) 
Diane

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Offline jessiwrite

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They would have had to start someplace else to make a life, but it would have worked.  Actually I think being with each other is the only relationship that would have worked for only together were their souls whole.  i don't mean to sound romantic becasue I'm not much of one, but their happiness was with each other.  It's not the hell you go through with in the day, but the heaven you close your eyes with in the night that makes it all worth it, makes everything all right.

jessi
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My man who nothin ever came t’is hand the way he wanted.
‘Cause all he ever wanted was me.

Offline jessiwrite

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He didn't see his girls often, and they were nearly grown.  The child support and being near his girls would soon be running thin.  I really feel if Jack had lived things would have changed, not smoothly, but standing it would have become less and less an option.

jessi
... not nobody when in somebody's arms,  ain’t nowhere if somewhere with him.
My man who nothin ever came t’is hand the way he wanted.
‘Cause all he ever wanted was me.

Offline dly64

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He didn't see his girls often, and they were nearly grown.  The child support and being near his girls would soon be running thin.  I really feel if Jack had lived things would have changed, not smoothly, but standing it would have become less and less an option.

jessi

I tend to see Ennis as using his daughters as an excuse. After his daughters were grown, Ennis would have found another reason not to live with Jack. He was just too homophobic. Who knows? If Jack would have lived, he might have given Ennis an ultimatum. However, I just can’t see Jack having a life without Ennis and vice versa. Ennis was forced to acknowledge the depth of his love for Jack (during the lake scene), but ultimately it was too late. Ennis had to live the remainder of his life with regret. The one person he loved, he lost. 
Diane

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Offline jessiwrite

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The story certainly is final.  I can't help but wonder what if though.  I felt something bend a tiny curve in the standing it wall, small, but sure, something did happen.  Ennis had every right to be afraid, they would be in danger, but he surely loved Jack, and he said he couldn't stand it, of course he could, for then, for longer, but not indefinitly now.  And he surely loved Jack.

jessi
... not nobody when in somebody's arms,  ain’t nowhere if somewhere with him.
My man who nothin ever came t’is hand the way he wanted.
‘Cause all he ever wanted was me.

Offline opinionista

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bump
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline ednbarby

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Yes ... I agree. Living together is completely overrated!  ;) 

Ain't DAT the truth?  I think Woody Allen and Mia Farrow actually got it right.  Can I live in a brownstone on the other side of Central Park from my husband, please?  ;)
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Offline serious crayons

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I think Woody Allen and Mia Farrow actually got it right.

Yes, it sure worked out well for them!  ;D

Sorry. You're right, though; a little distance can be nice.

My stepmother remarried a few years after my dad died. She and her new husband, Robert, lived in condos in different buildings and, at first, they kept their separate homes. Then after a year or so, Robert moved into her building -- but in a separate condo! They're both busy, successful types -- retired but involved in lots of civic work and other kinds of projects -- and they like having their own space.

Offline Katie77

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As well as the fear of living in a homophobic society, I dont think Ennis, would have ever been happy living with Jack, if it had been the cause of unhappiness to anyone....Alma had moved on, Junior was about to start her own life, and Jenny was doing her own thing now...but Jack still had a wife and a son, and so maybe if Jack had split with Laureen and Ennis saw Bobby leading his own life, then his concious would have maybe let it all happen.....

But I could never see Ennis living with Jack, unless it was in a remote area...where they didnt have to come face to face with homophobia all the time......

If they moved to a new town, where no one knew them, they could have charaded as brothers to the people they got to know.....(thats what my dad and his partner did back in the 60's, when homosexuality was not only looked down on, but it was also illegal).......

Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: Would it have worked? Merged with "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possibl
« Reply #102 on: September 20, 2006, 11:26:16 pm »
Let's see. The relasionship survived 20 years thru the obsticals of marrage,  chidren, living 700 miles apart, homophopia, etc. I would have to say that it would work.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline jessiwrite

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As they got older I truly believe they would have made a life together.  Ennis would have gone a lot farther then around a coffee pot, but they were about to the point where it couldn't be stood any longer, and they loved and needed each other too much, they would have no option but to fix it.

I'm not sure if this thread is would they try a life together (answered that above, lol) or if they did live together would it have lasted.  There is no doubt, none, not even a remote space on that one - it would have certainly lasted.  Man oh man would it have lasted.

jessi
... not nobody when in somebody's arms,  ain’t nowhere if somewhere with him.
My man who nothin ever came t’is hand the way he wanted.
‘Cause all he ever wanted was me.

Offline dly64

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I'm not sure if this thread is would they try a life together (answered that above, lol) or if they did live together would it have lasted.  There is no doubt, none, not even a remote space on that one - it would have certainly lasted.  Man oh man would it have lasted.

jessi

My understanding of this thread is that if they did live together, would it have lasted.

I vascilate back and forth on this. I think it would have lasted, but it would not have been an easy relationship. Ennis would have had to make some key changes to be comfortable living with Jack.
Diane

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Would it have worked? Merged with "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possibl
« Reply #105 on: September 21, 2006, 12:22:34 pm »
I guess there are actually two different questions here.

One is, if they lived in the ideal world where homophobia wasn't an issue, would they have lasted as a couple -- given that finances would be tough and they do have some personality differences? My answer: Yes. Their personality differences complement each other, they were willing to sacrifice financially and they were as in love as any couple ever has been. So, sure.

The other is, given the real-world homophobia they actually would have confronted, if Ennis nevertheless agreed to the sweet life, would they have lasted? My answer: Maybe. There would be far more pressure and stress and sacrifice than most couples ever have to endure. Day after day, year after year, that would be extremely wearing, to say the least, for Jack as well as Ennis. So that's iffy.


Offline jessiwrite

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Got it.  Their relationship would have lasted if they had to live in hell.  Life isn't easy, period, but they sure weren't doing fine seperate.  Not fine at all.  Jack couldn't have been worn any thinner or more unhappy  than without ennis.  They knew each other well enough to account for moods, space... The only times we see Ennis heppy, being himself, is with horses and Jack.  Wow can you imagine a life with both.

They had each other, if they had tried it together, and I do believe that would have been a step taken down the road, they would be smart enough to work it out.  They knew they were not much without each other.  Couples do last, even in the worst of times.  Two of my good friends were married in 1971, had to go out of state for it was illegal in the Alabama county we lived in for a black and a white to be married.  They went through so much by holding onto each other, even they had to watch their kids suffer.  Even when she got sosick.And also had the same leaving toilet seat up, you didn't pay the piower bill that all couples do.

It's love, bud.  Sorry, got carried away, just never knew of a love greater than Jack and Ennis or two poeple belonging together more, fiction or real.

jessi
... not nobody when in somebody's arms,  ain’t nowhere if somewhere with him.
My man who nothin ever came t’is hand the way he wanted.
‘Cause all he ever wanted was me.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Would it have worked? Merged with "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possibl
« Reply #107 on: September 21, 2006, 03:36:25 pm »
They had each other, if they had tried it together, and I do believe that would have been a step taken down the road, they would be smart enough to work it out.

I hope so! (Even though it's kind of moot.)

Scott6373

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If (and it's a big if) they could have survived as they were for another ten years, then maybe if they chose to make a life togather, it may have worked out, but not in 1983. 

Besides, Ennis was just starting to come into a more complete knowledge and acceptance of himself at the end of the story, and this was precipatated by the worst of all occurences.  Should Jack have lived, it would have taken Ennis even longer to reach that same point.

Knowing how it was for me back then, I find it impossible to accept that "love conquers all" approach.  It dosen't.  Trust, and work and a willingness to grow and change togather are what makes love work, and in the globally homphobic climate of 1983, there was no way that Jack could have said anything to Ennis to ignite the necessary and dynamic emtional changes that were needed to make Ennis a  whole human being...or at least well on his way.

Offline jessiwrite

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Scott, one thing I hope I didn't imply was that it would be easy or not dangerous, but many men did find each other and live together in a rural climate in the early 80s, I know some that are still together after 40 years, and still live in the mountains of North Carloina, always have and I knew them well in the 70s.  I'm well aware that love without committment and hard work doesn't conquer all, I'm not even very romantic, but love truths. Love can be very powerful, can overcome what seems impossible.  They weren't making it without each other, it would have gotten much worse, but no matter how bad it got with them as a pair, they still had that lhat love to fall back on.  It would have been much harder, to live without each other than with.  And, they were not kids, they knew what life was about, knew each other and what was important. I know someone said it was a moot point, but in that framework seems most of our discussions are.  They surely were not real, lol. If Annie P decided to bring him back from the dead someway, lol she could and would change it all. 

So one of those unnumbered post where we respectively agree to disagree. I've enjoyed the thread.
... not nobody when in somebody's arms,  ain’t nowhere if somewhere with him.
My man who nothin ever came t’is hand the way he wanted.
‘Cause all he ever wanted was me.

Offline Bucky

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I agree with Scott that in 1983 or 1984 things against two people of the same sex living together as partners was not acceptable in most places in the United States.  The reason I say that is because that is how it worked for me as well.  Of course my partner and I had one more year left in college and then we would have had to go out in the working world.  I recall people back then saying AIDS was the gay plague and that people like Rock Hudson or Liberace should have died and all sorts of mean and vile things.  It was more acceptable to be lesbians back then than gay men.  There was just so much ignorance in the world.  I never really thought we could make it but I was willing to try but he wasn't. 

All I know is that I loved the guy back then but the truth is I don't love him now. I loved him the way he was in college when we were both young and had our entire lives in front of us. Now he is married and a son that is a senior in high school.  I guess I am luckier than most people in that I was given a second chance and weighed my feelings, his feelings according to his email messages, my situation, his situation and came to the conclusion that I just didn't want him now twenty two years later.  He has finally quit emailing me after I rejected his purposal that we "rekindle" what we had in college.  There were just too many factors that had to be considered.  Sometimes I think a love like that comes along once in a life time but if it is not nurtured at the time then somewhere along the line it just dies.

I think Jack and Ennis both loved each other but Ennis was too afraid to try to make a life with Jack.  I think Ennis just got comfortable living with himself and seeing his daughters ever so often and having a few "fishing trips" with Jack every so often in the wilderness of the Wyoming mountains.  I also think that as the years went by that Jack started getting comfortable with the lifestyle that he was living in Childress, Texas.  I do think Jack would have given the whole thing up for Ennis but Ennis was not going to live with Jack although he loved him.  Who knows how things would have turned out if life had been different for Jack and Ennis?

Offline Penthesilea

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I think Ennis just got comfortable living with himself and seeing his daughters ever so often and having a few "fishing trips" with Jack every so often in the wilderness of the Wyoming mountains. 

? :o?

Ennis comfortable with their situation?

"I'm nothing. I'm nowhere."
"Why don't you let me be?"
"I can't stand this no more Jack."

Look at Ennis at the Greyhound station/diner. How miserable can one man be? And this was before he got that fateful postcard.
The whole fucking unsatisfactory situation has taken it's toll from both of them, it has worn them out. This is one of the things the whole movie is about. I really can't follow you here.

Or did I misunderstand you?


Offline opinionista

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? :o?

Ennis comfortable with their situation?

"I'm nothing. I'm nowhere."
"Why don't you let me be?"
"I can't stand this no more Jack."

Look at Ennis at the Greyhound station/diner. How miserable can one man be? And this was before he got that fateful postcard.
The whole fucking unsatisfactory situation has taken it's toll from both of them, it has worn them out. This is one of the things the whole movie is about. I really can't follow you here.

Or did I misunderstand you?



I agree with the above poster. Ennis was miserable too. In, fact I think he was the most uncomfortable of the two with the life they were living.  It was a no win situation for both of them.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Scott6373

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I agree with the above poster. Ennis was miserable too. In, fact I think he was the most uncomfortable of the two with the life they were living.  It was a no win situation for both of them.

I think everyone can agree that our boys were miserable, but that is not seminal to the discussion.  I think I have stated in the past that in order to have a true view of how life was back then, we cannot recollect those days and times with our modern day sensibilities.

I've avoided saying this, but unless you are gay, you could never know what it was like to grow up gay in that particular period.  Ask an African American if they think that back in the 60's and 70's a biracial relationship was ok and could have survived.  The likely answer is, "probably not". 

Like it or not, we are social animals, and "living on love alone", will take you only so far without the care and support structure of a human community, and up until very recently (and in some cases still not yet), that community consisted of ad hoc groups of gay, lesbian and transgender peoples, that if not for the commonality in their respective sexuality, would probably have never been friends, let alone a "community".  There was no community for Jack and Ennis, because they were, like so many others in that time, caught in the middle, with no land of their own.  Their situation was made worse by their lack of education and an almost complete ignorance of their own innate worth as human beings.  They were not of the ilk to be activists, either by intention or accident.  Jack, perhaps could have been a "knight of the cause", given time, but not if pursued Ennis the rest of his life.

My back and the backs of many others still show the scars (and I do mean scars) from bearing the hatred of the world during the 60's, 70's and 80's.  It is the men and women, who demanded to be seen back then as human beings, of no less value than anyone else, that have paved the way for the younger generation of today.  I used to get angry at the younger gay generation for showing such a lack of respect for their predecessors, but not anymore.  It makes me smile now, because they have not known a time when they didn't have the freedoms that we fought and even died for. 

Most of us are gone now.  So many brilliant and worthy people, and yet there are still young men entering gay bars with machete’s, hacking at people who he fears.  How far have we come?  A ways, but most certainly not far enough.

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Would it have worked? Merged with "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possibl
« Reply #114 on: September 25, 2006, 02:44:52 pm »
Scott (and everyone else):

Here's something I've been wondering about lately. The movie softens most of the characters from their portrayal in the story, and it focuses on Ennis's internal homophobia compared to the homophobia in the surrounding society. I wonder... does it soften it too much? Does it do an injustice to people who have been beaten, to focus so much on the internal struggle instead of the external struggle?

When I saw BBM in the theater, the audience members gasped when they saw Jack being beaten in flashback. Was that, plus the image of Earl's body, enough to quietly make the point that Ennis's fears were based in reality?

Is the empathy gained by inviting the entire audience, straight as well as gay, to feel Ennis's loss worth giving up explicit awareness of the very real hatred that people had (and have) to contend with?
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Scott6373

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Re: Would it have worked? Merged with "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possibl
« Reply #115 on: September 25, 2006, 02:58:18 pm »
Scott (and everyone else):

Here's something I've been wondering about lately. The movie softens most of the characters from their portrayal in the story, and it focuses on Ennis's internal homophobia compared to the homophobia in the surrounding society. I wonder... does it soften it too much? Does it do an injustice to people who have been beaten, to focus so much on the internal struggle instead of the external struggle? 

When I saw BBM in the theater, the audience members gasped when they saw Jack being beaten in flashback. Was that, plus the image of Earl's body, enough to quietly make the point that Ennis's fears were based in reality?

Is the empathy gained by inviting the entire audience, straight as well as gay, to feel Ennis's loss worth giving up explicit awareness of the very real hatred that people had (and have) to contend with?

I have to qoute your whole post because it is SO relevent.  But, it is also a matter of artistic interpretation.  I never considered if Ang Lee made the film too "pretty" as opposed to Ms Proulx's original stroy.  In some respects perhaps, but I have never felt the need to shove my struggles as a gay man down anyone's throat just to make a point.  The only reason I bring it up here, is because the attitude of those times in most area's of the country are very pertinent to the debate.

I feel, like I'm sure many oppressed factions do, that we, in this culture, like to just forget about the ugly side of things and focus on positive achievments, but we really can't do that.  We have to always remember.

Still, the question you present haunts me.  The makers of the film have stated that they did not intend or want to make a "gay statement" film.  So I guess if you look at this film, solely, the answer would have to be no.  They did no injustice by not focusing on the external struggle.  The question then becomes, does Hollywood do an injustice by not showing this struggle more truthfully.  I think we all know the answer to that one.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2006, 03:08:04 pm by Scott6373 »

Offline Bucky

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? :o?

Ennis comfortable with their situation?

"I'm nothing. I'm nowhere."
"Why don't you let me be?"
"I can't stand this no more Jack."

Look at Ennis at the Greyhound station/diner. How miserable can one man be? And this was before he got that fateful postcard.
The whole fucking unsatisfactory situation has taken it's toll from both of them, it has worn them out. This is one of the things the whole movie is about. I really can't follow you here.

Or did I misunderstand you?                




I think you might have misunderstood me.  It was an unsatisfactory situation and believe me I know from personal experience what it was like.  I just think Ennis was afraid to try but then I guess a lot of us back in the 1970's & 1980's were afraid.  Homophobia wrecked the best romantic relationship I ever had.  My partner and I both were worn out and afraid so he finally just put an end to our relationship without telling me or talking it over.  I have had relationships since then but none so wonderful as that one relationship.  I don't know how it is with every person but I can't go back in the past and pick something up after twenty years or more.   I once said that I would always love the guy I dated in college and I will but not the man he has become now.

It just seems to me that Jack and Ennis were stuck in a time warp and that in their minds they were the two young nineteen year olds that fell in love on Brokeback Mountain but actually they were thirty nine year old men by the time Jack died.  It was not Jack's fault that Ennis was "nothing" and "nowhere" but it was Ennis' fault because Ennis called his own shots.  It may have been Ennis' father's fault for warping a nine year old kid by showing him the corpse of a dead gay man who had been murdered by the town people.  Just ask yourself this question  "would Ennis have been better off economically and mentally if Jack had never sought Ennis out for a reunion?"  I have often wondered about that myself and I don't really know.  Ennis was pretty set in his ways and I wouldn't be surprised if he and Alma wouldn't have divorced even if he and Jack had never had a reunion.  

Offline dly64

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I've avoided saying this, but unless you are gay, you could never know what it was like to grow up gay in that particular period.  Ask an African American if they think that back in the 60's and 70's a biracial relationship was ok and could have survived.  The likely answer is, "probably not". 

Like it or not, we are social animals, and "living on love alone", will take you only so far without the care and support structure of a human community, and up until very recently (and in some cases still not yet), that community consisted of ad hoc groups of gay, lesbian and transgender peoples, that if not for the commonality in their respective sexuality, would probably have never been friends, let alone a "community".  There was no community for Jack and Ennis, because they were, like so many others in that time, caught in the middle, with no land of their own.  Their situation was made worse by their lack of education and an almost complete ignorance of their own innate worth as human beings.  They were not of the ilk to be activists, either by intention or accident.  Jack, perhaps could have been a "knight of the cause", given time, but not if pursued Ennis the rest of his life.

My back and the backs of many others still show the scars (and I do mean scars) from bearing the hatred of the world during the 60's, 70's and 80's.  It is the men and women, who demanded to be seen back then as human beings, of no less value than anyone else, that have paved the way for the younger generation of today.  I used to get angry at the younger gay generation for showing such a lack of respect for their predecessors, but not anymore.  It makes me smile now, because they have not known a time when they didn't have the freedoms that we fought and even died for. 

Most of us are gone now.  So many brilliant and worthy people, and yet there are still young men entering gay bars with machete’s, hacking at people who he fears.  How far have we come?  A ways, but most certainly not far enough.


How beautifully written! I can understand your POV. You are correct. I, being a hetero female, have no clue what it would have been like for a gay male in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. My reality is this: I am a white hetero female, born and raised in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. I was very sheltered. I was raised Mennonite. I did not understand what a gay person even was until I was much older (in that way, I can understand Alma’s shock at seeing her husband passionately kissing a man). When I was old enough to understand, I was told about my gay great uncle who was murdered. I also dated a guy in college who I know was gay (he hadn’t accepted it at that time). What I strive to do, however, is to understand as best as I can the reality of what life must be like for gays or other ethnicities (anyone’s reality who is different than my own). Without asking the questions and having an open dialogue, I would choose to be ignorant. Ignorance = prejudice, IMO.

Many of us on this board are idealists when it comes to Jack and Ennis. We are hopeful that, had Ennis decided to take the leap, they would have had a wonderful life together. I am in that camp. Realistically, however, I am not so sure that it would have worked. Ennis would have had a lot to overcome before ever considering living with Jack. Additionally, there would have been a lot of societal dangers/ hatred inflicted upon them. Yes, they deeply loved each other. That doesn’t mean that they could have had a successful life together. 
Diane

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Offline Katie77

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I think everyone can agree that our boys were miserable, but that is not seminal to the discussion.  I think I have stated in the past that in order to have a true view of how life was back then, we cannot recollect those days and times with our modern day sensibilities.

I've avoided saying this, but unless you are gay, you could never know what it was like to grow up gay in that particular period.  Ask an African American if they think that back in the 60's and 70's a biracial relationship was ok and could have survived.  The likely answer is, "probably not". 


Scott, I respect your feelings here, and dont try to say that I "know" what it was like in the 60's, what it was like being gay.... I can only go by my father's experience of being gay in the 60's.....He and his partner lived a happy, productive life in the sixties, but they still were not openly gay.  It was illegal at that time, but that still did not stop the two of them living in a loving relationship with one another.  To the outside world, they were brothers, (Dad's partner changed his name officially to my Dad's name), so although they still had to live a lie to outsiders, they could still share their intimacies when they were alone, or among other gay friends.  It may have not been perfect, but it was the best way they knew how to handle the situation....it was better than not being together at all..

To compare the lifestyle and problems of gays with African Americans, is to me, not a good comparison...after all, African Americans could not charade as white people or keep secret the colour of their skin. They were confronted with agression and discrimanation, whether they wanted to be or not.

I agree, to live openly gay in the 60's would have been nearly impossible, but there were ways of being with whomever one loved, and it didnt necessarily have to be out on show to everyone, just as long as they were living the life together that they wanted to live.
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To compare the lifestyle and problems of gays with African Americans, is to me, not a good comparison...after all, African Americans could not charade as white people or keep secret the colour of their skin. They were confronted with agression and discrimanation, whether they wanted to be or not.

I agree, to live openly gay in the 60's would have been nearly impossible, but there were ways of being with whomever one loved, and it didnt necessarily have to be out on show to everyone, just as long as they were living the life together that they wanted to live.

While I agree that the racial struggles of African Americans in this country is one of our greatest (if not the greatest) tragedies that we still endure, I have to disagree and say that we cannot qualify the effects of oppression and hatred, and give it more weight to one oppressed group over another.  In any form, if it detrimentally effects the lives of the oppressed, it is wrong.

As for the second part of your post, I would like to address it in two parts. 

First, I (and I think I can safely speak for all gay people) do not want to be just tolerated, nor do I want to "play the part" that middle, heterocentric America wants me to, just so that I am not the victim of discrimination and violence.  When you say "and it didnt necessarily have to be out on show", and "To compare the lifestyle and problems of gays with African Americans, is to me, not a good comparison", the hair on the back of my neck litteraly stood on end.  I am not saying that you are homphobic by any means, but do you realize how that sounds?  There is so much ingrained and quietly insidious intolerance toward gays, and for that matter all oppressed minority groups (women included), that we often don't even know how hurtfull what we are saying really is.

Secondly, if we are talking specifically about the question at hand:  Would Ennis & Jack have had the sweet life?, in a roundabout way, you answerred it.  The answer would have been no.  Jack was already on his way to a more complete understanding of himself and his sexuality (he still had a long way to go), and Ennis was not even close!  Sure, they could have TRIED to live togather under the circumstances that you wrote, but eventually, it would have been Jack who would have been the one that wanted to move forward and live a more open and complete life, and it is highly doubtfull that Ennis would have been able to do that, ever.  That alone would have driven them apart eventually.  I've seen it happen all to many times, and with far more educated and enlightened people than those two.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2006, 07:58:59 am by Scott6373 »

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Would it have worked? Merged with "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possibl
« Reply #120 on: September 27, 2006, 08:46:54 am »
Still, the question you present haunts me.  The makers of the film have stated that they did not intend or want to make a "gay statement" film.  So I guess if you look at this film, solely, the answer would have to be no.  They did no injustice by not focusing on the external struggle.

I know I wouldn't have gone to see a "gay statement" film multiple times, and probably wouldn't still be discussing it. I just don't enjoy movies in the which the message comes through too strongly or too obviously, no matter how right the message is -- I like subtlety in art. (I do watch documentaries, sometimes, especially when I'm convinced that they are about an important topic. But I don't watch them multiple times, and I certainly don't have dreams about them.)

I've seen a lot of men explain, over and over, how this or that thing in the movie really is something they have gone through. I hope it's not too horrible to keep talking about it. I think that the conversations may be more important than the actual movie in changing the world. (*gets all idealistic and Jack-like for a moment* ;) )

Quote
The question then becomes, does Hollywood do an injustice by not showing this struggle more truthfully.  I think we all know the answer to that one.

Well, Hollywood and the entertainment industry showed their homophobia in many ways when BBM was released, with all the talk of whether Heath and Jake were afraid for their careers, and all the homophobic jokes, and the big surprise at the end of Oscar night. (But then... did Hollywood make honest movies about the Civil Rights movement when it was going on? For all Hollywood's supposed progressiveness, I don't think it really leads the culture as a whole.)
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

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Re: Would it have worked? Merged with "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possibl
« Reply #121 on: September 27, 2006, 08:55:08 am »
I hope it's not too horrible to keep talking about it. I think that the conversations may be more important than the actual movie in changing the world. (*gets all idealistic and Jack-like for a moment* ;) )

Of course remembering emotionally and phsyically painfull events is always difficult, it is also the only way we can come to a better understanding of how the events in our lives have truly formed us.  There does come a time, when we need to move past those events, just so that we can keep on keeping on, but there will always be (as is evidenced by places like this and other forums) folks who need to still work through the demons that are/were resurrected by this film.

I completely agree with you that the sharing and conversations are of far more value at this point than the film.  I still find it hard to believe that the film makers had no idea that it would have this kind of far reaching emotional impact.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: Would it have worked? Merged with "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possibl
« Reply #122 on: September 27, 2006, 11:11:30 am »


Secondly, if we are talking specifically about the question at hand:  Would Ennis & Jack have had the sweet life?, in a roundabout way, you answerred it.  The answer would have been no.  Jack was already on his way to a more complete understanding of himself and his sexuality (he still had a long way to go), and Ennis was not even close!  Sure, they could have TRIED to live togather under the circumstances that you wrote, but eventually, it would have been Jack who would have been the one that wanted to move forward and live a more open and complete life, and it is highly doubtfull that Ennis would have been able to do that, ever.  That alone would have driven them apart eventually.  I've seen it happen all to many times, and with far more educated and enlightened people than those two.
I think Jack main interest was being with Ennis, did not care about being 'out" as just having Ennis. He would have been more than willing to live where ever Ennis would feel at least somewhat comfortable.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2006, 11:25:51 am by jpwagoneer1964 »
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Scott6373

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Re: Would it have worked? Merged with "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possibl
« Reply #123 on: September 27, 2006, 11:20:32 am »
i think Jack main interest was being with Ennis, did care about being 'out" as just having Ennis. He would have been more than willing to live where ever Ennis would feel at least somewhat comfortable.

Oh I respectfully diasgree.  I think Jack, though far more the dreamer, was much more progressive than that.  He was the more daring of the two, and it would only have a matter of time before he needed to be out (in the total sense of the word) in the larger world.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2006, 12:02:36 pm by Scott6373 »

Offline Katie77

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As for the second part of your post, I would like to address it in two parts. 

First, I (and I think I can safely speak for all gay people) do not want to be just tolerated, nor do I want to "play the part" that middle, heterocentric America wants me to, just so that I am not the victim of discrimination and violence.  When you say "and it didnt necessarily have to be out on show", and "To compare the lifestyle and problems of gays with African Americans, is to me, not a good comparison", the hair on the back of my neck litteraly stood on end.  I am not saying that you are homphobic by any means, but do you realize how that sounds?  There is so much ingrained and quietly insidious intolerance toward gays, and for that matter all oppressed minority groups (women included), that we often don't even know how hurtfull what we are saying really is.

Secondly, if we are talking specifically about the question at hand:  Would Ennis & Jack have had the sweet life?, in a roundabout way, you answerred it.  The answer would have been no.  Jack was already on his way to a more complete understanding of himself and his sexuality (he still had a long way to go), and Ennis was not even close!  Sure, they could have TRIED to live togather under the circumstances that you wrote, but eventually, it would have been Jack who would have been the one that wanted to move forward and live a more open and complete life, and it is highly doubtfull that Ennis would have been able to do that, ever.  That alone would have driven them apart eventually.  I've seen it happen all to many times, and with far more educated and enlightened people than those two.

I am glad Scott, that you didnt call me "homophobic"...that would be as insulting to me as calling me a bad mother. 

I agree that sometimes my words relate to "problems of gays" and other such phrases, but it is for want of a better way of describing things...when I use words such as "problems" or "lifestyle" I am using words that society uses, not words i would prefer to use.

When I think of gay people, or talk about a gay person, my thought is that they live their lives the same way as everyone else does, the only difference with them is, is that they love someone of the same sex....a simple non dramatic explanation, which i find difficult that some people cant relate to or understand.  I guess thats why I said in my post that they dont necessarily have to be out in the open to have enjoyed a life together....to me, what goes on behind closed doors with either straight or gay people doesnt have to be out there on display for everyone to see, nor does it have to be "out there" to succeed happily.

And we are looking at it as it was in the 60's....when it was illegal.....they really didnt have a lot of choice until laws were changed.
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It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Would it have worked? Merged with "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possibl
« Reply #125 on: September 27, 2006, 07:50:07 pm »
This discussion reminds me of an experience I had once in a sensitivity training group that everybody in my workplace was required to attend.

We were all encouraged to discuss our personal experiences. So one guy told about how every day his job required him to stop in at another department and talk to these guys who, not realizing he was gay, were always making homophobic jokes. The guy said it always made him uncomfortable, of course, and he never knew how to react -- he didn't really relish facing whatever conflicts might arise from saying something, but he felt awful remaining silent, also.

Then one of the sensitivity facilitators, an African-American woman who, frankly, was pretty overbearing and obnoxious, more or less cut him off. "Well, see now, as a black woman I don't have the advantage of being able to hide my identity!" she said. "I just have to face whatever people might say about me and blah blah blah ..." and so on in that vein. And I thought, "Really? You think that's a big advantage, huh?" Because, of course, one thing she does have going for her is that most people -- not all, of course, but most -- will try not to say anything racist, even if they are racist, when she's around.

There are arguments to be made on either side, I guess. But it always made me mad that someone who was supposed to be teaching "sensitivity" could be so insensitive.

Let me quickly say that I am not telling this story to imply that either of you is being insensitive. Not at all! Just that the issues are complex either way. I bet it's no picnic being subjected to prejudice of any kind.

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Re: Would it have worked? Merged with "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possibl
« Reply #126 on: September 28, 2006, 10:28:57 am »
Let me quickly say that I am not telling this story to imply that either of you is being insensitive. Not at all! Just that the issues are complex either way. I bet it's no picnic being subjected to prejudice of any kind.
Most of the lesbigay people of color with whom I've been acquainted have conveyed to me that racism and issues of racial/ethnic solidarity are more important/more pressing to them than homophobia and issues of sexual identity/solidarity with other lesbigay people. The thing that strikes me is that there should be no need to rank these kinds of issues--all are important and worthy/needful of attention. The person bearing the brunt of prejudice or hatred is not stopping to think, in the moment, about how important the cause of their suffering is in the greater picture of social issues; they just want it to stop!

Offline Bucky

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I am just a human being.  I am what I am and I detest all forms of bigotry.  However the bigots of the world no matter how mean spirited they might be understand that if you are Afro-American, Native-American, Oriental-American, Hispanic-American or Caucasion-American that is what you are and they know you were born as such.  However most bigots of the world do not think that a gay person is born that way.  They are sure it is a "life style choice" which it is not.

 I think most people who are gay are born that way and grow up actually confused about who they are.  I know I did and it wasn't until I was 19 years old that I would even admit that I was gay and that it became a reality to me because I had a gay relationship in which deep intense love was involved.  Sure I had been attracted to guys in the past but more in a sexual way and I never would have acted on those feelings because I am shy by nature.  I would act on feelings if it involved females even though those sexual feelings might be less intense than with males.  I had never had a guy "put the moves on me" until I was nineteen and although I was a little afraid, flattered not knowing for sure what it meant I went along with him.  Still it was eight months of the most incredible happiness that I had experienced up until that time.  We had the "safety net" of university life to cushion us from the outside world.  I think it was safer in college than out in the world as a whole.

I am now forty three years old and that was the first and last gay relationship that I ever had.  It was also the most intense relationship that I ever had in my life.  I had a few short term relationships with women later but none ever lasted over a month or two months at the most.  I have never had more than "one date" with another male since my college days and it led absolutely no where.  So I don't know for sure if it was my fault or his fault but probably my fault.

Right now I am content not having a relationship male or female.  I am becoming "comfortable" in my single life and I don't want to change that right now.  I suppose some day I may have another relationship but homophobia or the fear of homophobia killed my first really intense relationship.  So I know of the horrors of homophobia first hand from personal experience.  It is no fun to be a target of ridicule which I know would have happened if my partner and myself had outed ourselves and faced the world as two gay men who just happened to be in love.  To be sure it was probably even a more of a scary scenario for him than myself so he just left me without a word.  Now he is a very unhappy person but I am not that unhappy because I never formally involved myself with someone that I didn't love just to be accepted.  It was easier for me to just stay single than to do that to my heart.  In an IDEAL accepting world I could have been very happy but we don't live in an ideal world.

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I think the fact that we are having such a heated and well thought out debate about prejudice and homophobia in 2006, puts an exclamation point at the end of the statement:  No, 20 or so years ago, they would never have had a sweet life!
« Last Edit: September 29, 2006, 09:43:56 am by Scott6373 »

Offline JT

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This is just my opinion, but I think being a racial minority is in a way easier than being gay and here's why.  Being an African-American for example, you can't hide.  The way you are is there and everyone sees it.  Eventhough it's hard at first, eventually people will see that being an African-American is "normal" and accept it, and get used to it.  Being gay on the other hand, you can hide it.  That to me is a negative thing because you're afraid to come out.  The more you hide, the more worthless you feel, because you have to hide, and the more worthless you feel, the more you want to hide.  You're basically going no where.  And in Jack and Ennis' time, being gay can get you kill or put in jail, so that will make you hide even more and lock the closet door.  So now in 2006 gays are still treated as second class citizen.  Now I meant by the government not the public.  It's the "can hide" vs. "can't hide".  Here's a simpler way of looking at it with a dentist scenario.  If a person is force to go to the dentist, he'll have to go no matter what.  Yes, it's painful but he'll get his problems taken care of.  If he has a choice on the other hand, very likely he will not go because it's painful.  So he'll end up with oral disease and more pain. 

Now I'm both a racial minority and gay so I get to experience both.  They both have their "problems" but I can say I'm a proud Asian to anyone out there but yet I'm still lock up in my closet.

Offline serious crayons

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I'm neither a racial minority nor gay, so I hope nobody minds my saying this, but I can think of another reason being gay might be harder. Most racial minorities grow up surrounded by people who are like them. So they can feel quote-unquote "normal" from the get-go, and they can learn from watching their parents and other elders cope with prejudice and discrimination. Most gay people don't grow up surrounded by a lot of other gay people, at least not early on, so they have to figure things out for themselves.  :-\

Offline JT

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I'm neither a racial minority nor gay, so I hope nobody minds my saying this, but I can think of another reason being gay might be harder. Most racial minorities grow up surrounded by people who are like them. So they can feel quote-unquote "normal" from the get-go, and they can learn from watching their parents and other elders cope with prejudice and discrimination. Most gay people don't grow up surrounded by a lot of other gay people, at least not early on, so they have to figure things out for themselves.  :-\

Glad you said it.  That's a very good point.  I had to blindly find my own way through.  It was a journey that I took alone.  I'm out to only one person in my entire state even now.  I knew I was different when I was six but I didn't understand myself until my mid teens.  Used to think I'm a freak.  It was in my early 20s was when I see another gay person and realize I'm not the only one.  That's when I start learning what homosexuality was and it was nerve-recking to go into the library to find a book on this subject.  Had to hide in a dark corner to read it and was too afraid to check-out that book.  Enough about my personal experience.

Back to the main question.  Would that sweet life ever been possible?  IMO That all depends on Ennis and the location.  They need a location that is isolated enough to ease Ennis' mind but I think Ennis himself is the bigger issue.  He would be the one that decide on that question.  Frankly, if Ennis is more like Jack, then I think it would be possible to have that sweet life.  They probably have to pretend that they're brothers or cousins or somethin'.  But the way Ennis is, it's not very likely. 

Offline Katie77

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Glad you said it.  That's a very good point.  I had to blindly find my own way through.  It was a journey that I took alone.  I'm out to only one person in my entire state even now.  I knew I was different when I was six but I didn't understand myself until my mid teens.  Used to think I'm a freak.  It was in my early 20s was when I see another gay person and realize I'm not the only one.  That's when I start learning what homosexuality was and it was nerve-recking to go into the library to find a book on this subject.  Had to hide in a dark corner to read it and was too afraid to check-out that book.  Enough about my personal experience.



Reading such stories as this, has brought me to another question (as a straight person very inquisitive about how the "gay" mind works)

While as not to underestimate the awfulness of living a life "in the closet", I am curious to know whether the choice to live in that closet is because, (1) you fear non-acceptance from your family and friends, and couldnt accept it if they "disowned" you ?....or (2) you fear retribution attacks on you physically?....or (3) it is easier not to have to open up about yourself, and feel more comfortable in a secret type existence ?

Is not being accepted, worse than living a life in the closet?

Sorry if I sound too blunt, I dont mean to be, and it hurts me deeply that some people cannot live the life they were born to live, I am just curious?
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Offline dly64

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I know we are going seriously OT here, but I had to put in my two cents (for what it's worth ...  ;)).

I have friends who are minorities and who are gay. I am neither, so I can only relay what my friends have said to me. Being an African American is not easy, especially depending on where you live. There is still a lot of hatred. One of my friends refuses to drive to certain areas in southern Indiana because it is a hot bed of racial hatred. You are right, being gay is not visible. Depending on where you are, however, there are advantages to that. African Americans cannot hide their skin color. I also have a friend who is Vietnamese. She does not experience the same type of hatred that my African American friends or my Hispanic friends do. And being Caucasian, I forget how uncomfortable it must be at times when one of my friends is the only minority in the room! 

There is an incredibly provocative song called “Strange Fruit” sung by Billie Holiday.  Here are the lyrics:


Written By: Lewis Allen

Southern trees bear strange fruit,
Blood on the leaves and blood at the root,
Black bodies swinging in the southern breeze,
Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees.

Pastoral scene of the gallant south,
The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth,
Scent of magnolias, sweet and fresh,
Then the sudden smell of burning flesh.

Here is fruit for the crows to pluck,
For the rain to gather, for the wind to suck,
For the sun to rot, for the trees to drop,
Here is a strange and bitter crop.



The song is about lynching in America. I am attaching some links about this song and you can hear a clip or download it. It is one of the most haunting songs you will ever hear. Yes, the song was written before the Civil Rights movement. Sadly, it still pertains today. I encourage you to listen to it and read about it. Here are two links:

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/strangefruit/film.html

http://www.theconnection.org/shows/2000/05/20000526_b_main.asp

I bring this up because it is important not to differentiate between what is worse in American …. prejudice based on race or sexual orientation. Hatred is hatred, period. Depending on where you are, it is dangerous to be a Jew, an African American, a Hispanic, a Muslim, or a Gay American. The reality is that we have a long way to go.

Okay … I’ll get off of my soapbox. Thanks for indulging me. I will now shut up!  ;)
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline JT

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Reading such stories as this, has brought me to another question (as a straight person very inquisitive about how the "gay" mind works)

While as not to underestimate the awfulness of living a life "in the closet", I am curious to know whether the choice to live in that closet is because, (1) you fear non-acceptance from your family and friends, and couldnt accept it if they "disowned" you ?....or (2) you fear retribution attacks on you physically?....or (3) it is easier not to have to open up about yourself, and feel more comfortable in a secret type existence ?

Is not being accepted, worse than living a life in the closet?

Sorry if I sound too blunt, I dont mean to be, and it hurts me deeply that some people cannot live the life they were born to live, I am just curious?

It's both.  1)  You learn through your culture that certain people are not desiralbe and are consider a "flaw" or "sin" of society.  I've heard of many stories of people who no longer communicate with their parents and relatives after coming out.  For me, it's also the feeling of shamefullness and fear of hurting my folks.  In my culture having face is a big deal and I know I'll shame them.  I guess hurting my folks is my biggeat fear.  2)  Now we all heard of gay-bashing in the news.  I've known personally people who're bash after coming out.  So yes, you risk physical hurm also.

I would like to reflect a little on #3.  It all has to do with being alive vs. being free and happy.  Yes, if I come out, I'll run into many risks from something as minor as name-calling to getting killed and being disowned, but I can be who I really am.  Living in the closet, on the other hand, I'll be somewhat safe(from gay-bashing), but I'll feel worthless like a piece of sh*t.  When I see straight couples doing something as simple as holding hands, I'm both happy for them and envious at the same time.  I couldn't bare to look at myself in the mirror sometimes and it gets bad if you have to ask yourself if this life worth living.  Isn't it pathethic that I had to ask my sister(the only person who knows) to but this wonderful movie for me?  I really feel like Ennis and can understand him.

Offline JT

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I know we are going seriously OT here, but I had to put in my two cents (for what it's worth ...  ;)).

I have friends who are minorities and who are gay. I am neither, so I can only relay what my friends have said to me. Being an African American is not easy, especially depending on where you live. There is still a lot of hatred. One of my friends refuses to drive to certain areas in southern Indiana because it is a hot bed of racial hatred. You are right, being gay is not visible. Depending on where you are, however, there are advantages to that. African Americans cannot hide their skin color. I also have a friend who is Vietnamese. She does not experience the same type of hatred that my African American friends or my Hispanic friends do. And being Caucasian, I forget how uncomfortable it must be at times when one of my friends is the only minority in the room! 

There is an incredibly provocative song called “Strange Fruit” sung by Billie Holiday.  Here are the lyrics:


Written By: Lewis Allen

Southern trees bear strange fruit,
Blood on the leaves and blood at the root,
Black bodies swinging in the southern breeze,
Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees.

Pastoral scene of the gallant south,
The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth,
Scent of magnolias, sweet and fresh,
Then the sudden smell of burning flesh.

Here is fruit for the crows to pluck,
For the rain to gather, for the wind to suck,
For the sun to rot, for the trees to drop,
Here is a strange and bitter crop.



The song is about lynching in America. I am attaching some links about this song and you can hear a clip or download it. It is one of the most haunting songs you will ever hear. Yes, the song was written before the Civil Rights movement. Sadly, it still pertains today. I encourage you to listen to it and read about it. Here are two links:

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/strangefruit/film.html

http://www.theconnection.org/shows/2000/05/20000526_b_main.asp

I bring this up because it is important not to differentiate between what is worse in American …. prejudice based on race or sexual orientation. Hatred is hatred, period. Depending on where you are, it is dangerous to be a Jew, an African American, a Hispanic, a Muslim, or a Gay American. The reality is that we have a long way to go.

Okay … I’ll get off of my soapbox. Thanks for indulging me. I will now shut up!  ;)


That's a very sad song, Diane.  It can be about anyone who has been beaten to death.  I keep seeing the image of Jack when I read those lines.  Yes, hate is hate no matter who its from and who it directs to.  We all suffer. 

Now could we all get back to the topic?

Offline Bucky

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I live in a rural area and everyone knows everyone else.  If I lived in a city I would more likely have the courage to come out.  Right now though my life is generally peaceful and I don't have the burden of dealing with a relationship as I have been "burned" badly in the past.  I am not so much afraid of getting burned right now as I just like the peace that I am having.  However when you are 43 years old it is almost a safe bet that there will be a future relationship.

 I just got over being burned a long time ago in a healing process since I saw Brokeback Mountain.  I got in touch with the one who hurt me emotionally twenty two years ago.  It was nice to catch up on his life and when he wanted to rekindle our relationship I said no.  I put a lot of thought into it and feel that I made the right decision and for the right reasons.  This time there is no bitterness like there was the first time.  I suppose that there might be a right person for me out there somewhere but I am not looking for it right now.  I just have a certain comfort that I am not having to deal with anyone but myself right now.  Maybe when I feel completely right about myself I will be ready for another relationship but right now that is not my first priority. 

Offline JT

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I live in a rural area and everyone knows everyone else.  If I lived in a city I would more likely have the courage to come out.  Right now though my life is generally peaceful and I don't have the burden of dealing with a relationship as I have been "burned" badly in the past.  I am not so much afraid of getting burned right now as I just like the peace that I am having.  However when you are 43 years old it is almost a safe bet that there will be a future relationship.

 I just got over being burned a long time ago in a healing process since I saw Brokeback Mountain.  I got in touch with the one who hurt me emotionally twenty two years ago.  It was nice to catch up on his life and when he wanted to rekindle our relationship I said no.  I put a lot of thought into it and feel that I made the right decision and for the right reasons.  This time there is no bitterness like there was the first time.  I suppose that there might be a right person for me out there somewhere but I am not looking for it right now.  I just have a certain comfort that I am not having to deal with anyone but myself right now.  Maybe when I feel completely right about myself I will be ready for another relationship but right now that is not my first priority. 

Yeah, how comfortable a person is depends one where he or she lives also.  I do belief that everyone can have that sweet life.  It all depend on how much we want it, how comfortable we feel about it, and our personal meaning of what that sweet life is.  I'm glad you're holding strong Bucky.  Brokeback seems to hurt us but yet heal us also.  It did for me.