Would it have worked? Merged with "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possible?"

[Bucky]

I agree with Scott that in 1983 or 1984 things against two people of the same sex living together as partners was not acceptable in most places in the United States.  The reason I say that is because that is how it worked for me as well.  Of course my partner and I had one more year left in college and then we would have had to go out in the working world.  I recall people back then saying AIDS was the gay plague and that people like Rock Hudson or Liberace should have died and all sorts of mean and vile things.  It was more acceptable to be lesbians back then than gay men.  There was just so much ignorance in the world.  I never really thought we could make it but I was willing to try but he wasn't. 

All I know is that I loved the guy back then but the truth is I don't love him now. I loved him the way he was in college when we were both young and had our entire lives in front of us. Now he is married and a son that is a senior in high school.  I guess I am luckier than most people in that I was given a second chance and weighed my feelings, his feelings according to his email messages, my situation, his situation and came to the conclusion that I just didn't want him now twenty two years later.  He has finally quit emailing me after I rejected his purposal that we "rekindle" what we had in college.  There were just too many factors that had to be considered.  Sometimes I think a love like that comes along once in a life time but if it is not nurtured at the time then somewhere along the line it just dies.

I think Jack and Ennis both loved each other but Ennis was too afraid to try to make a life with Jack.  I think Ennis just got comfortable living with himself and seeing his daughters ever so often and having a few "fishing trips" with Jack every so often in the wilderness of the Wyoming mountains.  I also think that as the years went by that Jack started getting comfortable with the lifestyle that he was living in Childress, Texas.  I do think Jack would have given the whole thing up for Ennis but Ennis was not going to live with Jack although he loved him.  Who knows how things would have turned out if life had been different for Jack and Ennis?

[Penthesilea]

I think Ennis just got comfortable living with himself and seeing his daughters ever so often and having a few "fishing trips" with Jack every so often in the wilderness of the Wyoming mountains. 

? ?

Ennis comfortable with their situation?

"I'm nothing. I'm nowhere."
"Why don't you let me be?"
"I can't stand this no more Jack."

Look at Ennis at the Greyhound station/diner. How miserable can one man be? And this was before he got that fateful postcard.
The whole fucking unsatisfactory situation has taken it's toll from both of them, it has worn them out. This is one of the things the whole movie is about. I really can't follow you here.

Or did I misunderstand you?

[opinionista]

? ?

Ennis comfortable with their situation?

"I'm nothing. I'm nowhere."
"Why don't you let me be?"
"I can't stand this no more Jack."

Look at Ennis at the Greyhound station/diner. How miserable can one man be? And this was before he got that fateful postcard.
The whole fucking unsatisfactory situation has taken it's toll from both of them, it has worn them out. This is one of the things the whole movie is about. I really can't follow you here.

Or did I misunderstand you?

I agree with the above poster. Ennis was miserable too. In, fact I think he was the most uncomfortable of the two with the life they were living.  It was a no win situation for both of them.

[Scott6373]

I agree with the above poster. Ennis was miserable too. In, fact I think he was the most uncomfortable of the two with the life they were living.  It was a no win situation for both of them.

I think everyone can agree that our boys were miserable, but that is not seminal to the discussion.  I think I have stated in the past that in order to have a true view of how life was back then, we cannot recollect those days and times with our modern day sensibilities.

I've avoided saying this, but unless you are gay, you could never know what it was like to grow up gay in that particular period.  Ask an African American if they think that back in the 60's and 70's a biracial relationship was ok and could have survived.  The likely answer is, "probably not". 

Like it or not, we are social animals, and "living on love alone", will take you only so far without the care and support structure of a human community, and up until very recently (and in some cases still not yet), that community consisted of ad hoc groups of gay, lesbian and transgender peoples, that if not for the commonality in their respective sexuality, would probably have never been friends, let alone a "community".  There was no community for Jack and Ennis, because they were, like so many others in that time, caught in the middle, with no land of their own.  Their situation was made worse by their lack of education and an almost complete ignorance of their own innate worth as human beings.  They were not of the ilk to be activists, either by intention or accident.  Jack, perhaps could have been a "knight of the cause", given time, but not if pursued Ennis the rest of his life.

My back and the backs of many others still show the scars (and I do mean scars) from bearing the hatred of the world during the 60's, 70's and 80's.  It is the men and women, who demanded to be seen back then as human beings, of no less value than anyone else, that have paved the way for the younger generation of today.  I used to get angry at the younger gay generation for showing such a lack of respect for their predecessors, but not anymore.  It makes me smile now, because they have not known a time when they didn't have the freedoms that we fought and even died for. 

Most of us are gone now.  So many brilliant and worthy people, and yet there are still young men entering gay bars with machete’s, hacking at people who he fears.  How far have we come?  A ways, but most certainly not far enough.

[nakymaton]

Scott (and everyone else):

Here's something I've been wondering about lately. The movie softens most of the characters from their portrayal in the story, and it focuses on Ennis's internal homophobia compared to the homophobia in the surrounding society. I wonder... does it soften it too much? Does it do an injustice to people who have been beaten, to focus so much on the internal struggle instead of the external struggle?

When I saw BBM in the theater, the audience members gasped when they saw Jack being beaten in flashback. Was that, plus the image of Earl's body, enough to quietly make the point that Ennis's fears were based in reality?

Is the empathy gained by inviting the entire audience, straight as well as gay, to feel Ennis's loss worth giving up explicit awareness of the very real hatred that people had (and have) to contend with?

[Scott6373]

Scott (and everyone else):

Here's something I've been wondering about lately. The movie softens most of the characters from their portrayal in the story, and it focuses on Ennis's internal homophobia compared to the homophobia in the surrounding society. I wonder... does it soften it too much? Does it do an injustice to people who have been beaten, to focus so much on the internal struggle instead of the external struggle? 

When I saw BBM in the theater, the audience members gasped when they saw Jack being beaten in flashback. Was that, plus the image of Earl's body, enough to quietly make the point that Ennis's fears were based in reality?

Is the empathy gained by inviting the entire audience, straight as well as gay, to feel Ennis's loss worth giving up explicit awareness of the very real hatred that people had (and have) to contend with?

I have to qoute your whole post because it is SO relevent.  But, it is also a matter of artistic interpretation.  I never considered if Ang Lee made the film too "pretty" as opposed to Ms Proulx's original stroy.  In some respects perhaps, but I have never felt the need to shove my struggles as a gay man down anyone's throat just to make a point.  The only reason I bring it up here, is because the attitude of those times in most area's of the country are very pertinent to the debate.

I feel, like I'm sure many oppressed factions do, that we, in this culture, like to just forget about the ugly side of things and focus on positive achievments, but we really can't do that.  We have to always remember.

Still, the question you present haunts me.  The makers of the film have stated that they did not intend or want to make a "gay statement" film.  So I guess if you look at this film, solely, the answer would have to be no.  They did no injustice by not focusing on the external struggle.  The question then becomes, does Hollywood do an injustice by not showing this struggle more truthfully.  I think we all know the answer to that one.

[Bucky]

? ?

Ennis comfortable with their situation?

"I'm nothing. I'm nowhere."
"Why don't you let me be?"
"I can't stand this no more Jack."

Look at Ennis at the Greyhound station/diner. How miserable can one man be? And this was before he got that fateful postcard.
The whole fucking unsatisfactory situation has taken it's toll from both of them, it has worn them out. This is one of the things the whole movie is about. I really can't follow you here.

Or did I misunderstand you?                




I think you might have misunderstood me.  It was an unsatisfactory situation and believe me I know from personal experience what it was like.  I just think Ennis was afraid to try but then I guess a lot of us back in the 1970's & 1980's were afraid.  Homophobia wrecked the best romantic relationship I ever had.  My partner and I both were worn out and afraid so he finally just put an end to our relationship without telling me or talking it over.  I have had relationships since then but none so wonderful as that one relationship.  I don't know how it is with every person but I can't go back in the past and pick something up after twenty years or more.   I once said that I would always love the guy I dated in college and I will but not the man he has become now.

It just seems to me that Jack and Ennis were stuck in a time warp and that in their minds they were the two young nineteen year olds that fell in love on Brokeback Mountain but actually they were thirty nine year old men by the time Jack died.  It was not Jack's fault that Ennis was "nothing" and "nowhere" but it was Ennis' fault because Ennis called his own shots.  It may have been Ennis' father's fault for warping a nine year old kid by showing him the corpse of a dead gay man who had been murdered by the town people.  Just ask yourself this question  "would Ennis have been better off economically and mentally if Jack had never sought Ennis out for a reunion?"  I have often wondered about that myself and I don't really know.  Ennis was pretty set in his ways and I wouldn't be surprised if he and Alma wouldn't have divorced even if he and Jack had never had a reunion.  

[dly64]

I've avoided saying this, but unless you are gay, you could never know what it was like to grow up gay in that particular period.  Ask an African American if they think that back in the 60's and 70's a biracial relationship was ok and could have survived.  The likely answer is, "probably not". 

Like it or not, we are social animals, and "living on love alone", will take you only so far without the care and support structure of a human community, and up until very recently (and in some cases still not yet), that community consisted of ad hoc groups of gay, lesbian and transgender peoples, that if not for the commonality in their respective sexuality, would probably have never been friends, let alone a "community".  There was no community for Jack and Ennis, because they were, like so many others in that time, caught in the middle, with no land of their own.  Their situation was made worse by their lack of education and an almost complete ignorance of their own innate worth as human beings.  They were not of the ilk to be activists, either by intention or accident.  Jack, perhaps could have been a "knight of the cause", given time, but not if pursued Ennis the rest of his life.

My back and the backs of many others still show the scars (and I do mean scars) from bearing the hatred of the world during the 60's, 70's and 80's.  It is the men and women, who demanded to be seen back then as human beings, of no less value than anyone else, that have paved the way for the younger generation of today.  I used to get angry at the younger gay generation for showing such a lack of respect for their predecessors, but not anymore.  It makes me smile now, because they have not known a time when they didn't have the freedoms that we fought and even died for. 

Most of us are gone now.  So many brilliant and worthy people, and yet there are still young men entering gay bars with machete’s, hacking at people who he fears.  How far have we come?  A ways, but most certainly not far enough.

How beautifully written! I can understand your POV. You are correct. I, being a hetero female, have no clue what it would have been like for a gay male in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. My reality is this: I am a white hetero female, born and raised in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. I was very sheltered. I was raised Mennonite. I did not understand what a gay person even was until I was much older (in that way, I can understand Alma’s shock at seeing her husband passionately kissing a man). When I was old enough to understand, I was told about my gay great uncle who was murdered. I also dated a guy in college who I know was gay (he hadn’t accepted it at that time). What I strive to do, however, is to understand as best as I can the reality of what life must be like for gays or other ethnicities (anyone’s reality who is different than my own). Without asking the questions and having an open dialogue, I would choose to be ignorant. Ignorance = prejudice, IMO.

Many of us on this board are idealists when it comes to Jack and Ennis. We are hopeful that, had Ennis decided to take the leap, they would have had a wonderful life together. I am in that camp. Realistically, however, I am not so sure that it would have worked. Ennis would have had a lot to overcome before ever considering living with Jack. Additionally, there would have been a lot of societal dangers/ hatred inflicted upon them. Yes, they deeply loved each other. That doesn’t mean that they could have had a successful life together. 

[Katie77]

I think everyone can agree that our boys were miserable, but that is not seminal to the discussion.  I think I have stated in the past that in order to have a true view of how life was back then, we cannot recollect those days and times with our modern day sensibilities.

I've avoided saying this, but unless you are gay, you could never know what it was like to grow up gay in that particular period.  Ask an African American if they think that back in the 60's and 70's a biracial relationship was ok and could have survived.  The likely answer is, "probably not". 

Scott, I respect your feelings here, and dont try to say that I "know" what it was like in the 60's, what it was like being gay.... I can only go by my father's experience of being gay in the 60's.....He and his partner lived a happy, productive life in the sixties, but they still were not openly gay.  It was illegal at that time, but that still did not stop the two of them living in a loving relationship with one another.  To the outside world, they were brothers, (Dad's partner changed his name officially to my Dad's name), so although they still had to live a lie to outsiders, they could still share their intimacies when they were alone, or among other gay friends.  It may have not been perfect, but it was the best way they knew how to handle the situation....it was better than not being together at all..

To compare the lifestyle and problems of gays with African Americans, is to me, not a good comparison...after all, African Americans could not charade as white people or keep secret the colour of their skin. They were confronted with agression and discrimanation, whether they wanted to be or not.

I agree, to live openly gay in the 60's would have been nearly impossible, but there were ways of being with whomever one loved, and it didnt necessarily have to be out on show to everyone, just as long as they were living the life together that they wanted to live.

[Scott6373]

To compare the lifestyle and problems of gays with African Americans, is to me, not a good comparison...after all, African Americans could not charade as white people or keep secret the colour of their skin. They were confronted with agression and discrimanation, whether they wanted to be or not.

I agree, to live openly gay in the 60's would have been nearly impossible, but there were ways of being with whomever one loved, and it didnt necessarily have to be out on show to everyone, just as long as they were living the life together that they wanted to live.

While I agree that the racial struggles of African Americans in this country is one of our greatest (if not the greatest) tragedies that we still endure, I have to disagree and say that we cannot qualify the effects of oppression and hatred, and give it more weight to one oppressed group over another.  In any form, if it detrimentally effects the lives of the oppressed, it is wrong.

As for the second part of your post, I would like to address it in two parts. 

First, I (and I think I can safely speak for all gay people) do not want to be just tolerated, nor do I want to "play the part" that middle, heterocentric America wants me to, just so that I am not the victim of discrimination and violence.  When you say "and it didnt necessarily have to be out on show", and "To compare the lifestyle and problems of gays with African Americans, is to me, not a good comparison", the hair on the back of my neck litteraly stood on end.  I am not saying that you are homphobic by any means, but do you realize how that sounds?  There is so much ingrained and quietly insidious intolerance toward gays, and for that matter all oppressed minority groups (women included), that we often don't even know how hurtfull what we are saying really is.

Secondly, if we are talking specifically about the question at hand:  Would Ennis & Jack have had the sweet life?, in a roundabout way, you answerred it.  The answer would have been no.  Jack was already on his way to a more complete understanding of himself and his sexuality (he still had a long way to go), and Ennis was not even close!  Sure, they could have TRIED to live togather under the circumstances that you wrote, but eventually, it would have been Jack who would have been the one that wanted to move forward and live a more open and complete life, and it is highly doubtfull that Ennis would have been able to do that, ever.  That alone would have driven them apart eventually.  I've seen it happen all to many times, and with far more educated and enlightened people than those two.