Would it have worked? Merged with "Would a SWEET LIFE ever have been possible?"

[Jeff Wrangler]

Second, at any ranch, on what Jack's reason was for being crazy to leave Lightning Flat. Was it a matter of being gay and lonely, or was it partly a matter of not liking ranch life? (I mean, it sounds idyllic, but it's hard work. Jack knows it... but he also wanted to leave it and join the rodeo circuit. How much of a thrill-seeker was Jack?)

Maybe he really just wanted to get away from his old man. The little cow and calf operation was his idea.

Not to change the subject, but has anyone ever commented on the fact that Jack took up the same rodeo event has his old man? Was that one more failed attempt to win his father's approval?

[souxi]

For afar more realistic, IMO of how life would have been for Jack and Ennis if they had decided to get a life together, read this on LJ. Very good story.

http://lovehurts4ever.livejournal.com/9501.html#cutid1

Thats the link to chapter one. There are currently 41.

[opinionista]

I don't tend to see relationships as doomed to either success or failure from the start. Not if both people are willing to stick it out and work on it and everything. I think that if Ennis could somehow overcome his internalized homophobia and agree to living with Jack, that he would be incredibly loyal and willing to work through just about anything. Jack, hmmm. Depends on whether we're talking about story-Jack or movie-Jack. I think that movie-Jack would probably have dealt with things if he knew he had Ennis (though he would bitch a lot, and be really cute about it, too ). Story-Jack I'm not so sure about, partly because it's a bit harder to be sure exactly what makes him tick.

I don't think their relationship was doomed from the beginning. I'm just wondering that  given the circumstances they were in when they met four years later, if they'd be able to have a long lasting relationship under the same roof. IMO if they had hooked up from the very beginning, I mean, right after coming down from Brokeback, the chances to have a successful life together were greater because at 19 years old with no strings attached they'd be more free to travel around looking for work and such. I even imagine Ennis willing to go down to Texas with Jack to do rodeo and stuff.

But after getting married and having kids, those chances were dimmer IMO, at least in rural America. If they had been someplace else, say New York or San Francisco, it'll be a whole different story. But in rural America they would've need to work hard, probably harder than any of us at this moment to make it as a couple, and not just because of the poverty. Ennis at least, would have to quit his daughters in order to be with Jack, and that is painful. No matter how happy Ennis can feel being with Jack, losing his daughters is a painful situation that puts a lot of strains in a relationship. I just don't picture Alma allowing Ennis to stay in their daughters' lives while living with Jack under the same roof. No way. And the worst part is that any judge will side with Alma on this. 

Also, some of you have stated that Jack was willing to go back to being poor in order to be with Ennis. And he was. I agree with that. However, I wonder if he'd last a month living in a beat up trailer, having to pee in the sink as Ennis does in the beginning of the short story. I think not, not after being years living as a rich man down in Texas. I don't picture him working long hours under the sun in some ranch either. Jack didn't like ranch work. I don't think he did. He could've stayed in Wyoming working in ranch instead of travelling to Texas to do rodeoing, but he didn't. As for inheriting his dad's ranch, I've always wondered how come he didn't tell this to Ennis when he brought up the idea of the little cow and calf operation. He doesn't even tell Ennis about building a cabin and help his father on the ranch. This is something Ennis hears from Jack's dad and not from Jack himself. Jack only talked about LD giving him money to disappear. IMO Jack didn't think inheriting his father's ranch was something he could actually count on in order to pursue a life with Ennis.

Before you give me hell, I'm not trying to downplay the possibility of Ennis and Jack being happy. I'm not saying that they didn't love each other enough to be happy. I'm just wondering what would be the real-life scenario for two gay men in love, poor, divorced and with kids, like Jack and Ennis, in rural America.

[Penthesilea]

I, too, think it would have worked. For all the reasons others have mentioned before: similar background and values, they shared many things and completed each other in other aspects. They had a great love for each other that lasted through 20 difficult years. I don't think that living together would have been more difficult than living apart.
And, additionally, I'm a romantic and believe that there are people who are meant to be with and for each other. THE one person in the world who is meant for you and vice versa, no matter what. And I think this is what Ennis and Jack were for each other.


But when? When they were 19, not parting after Brokeback? Maybe. But both were so young and unexperienced then. They were both still teenagers.
In general, I think that you have to be older than that to be mature enough for lifelong commitments.
On the other side, my husband and I were 17, going on 18 when we came together. And it works for more than 20 years now. So it is possible. But we had not to fight homophobia (internalized and from other people) and poverty with little prospects. ("Pair of deuces, going nowhere").

After the reunion? Yes, I think it could have worked then. But I can't see Ennis leaving his family at this time, the girls still so little. Just for the sake of discussion: even if he hadn't been in love with another man, but another woman (ot there was no homophobia at all in the world) and all his fears and demons wouldn't have had a voice, he still would have stuck with what he got. Out of loyalty and  duteousness.

After the divorce? Yes. I guess the post divorce scene is the moment in the movie when we all want to yell at Ennis: go for it, don't let Jack down again. This is your chance!

Later, at any time between divorce and lake scene? Yes.
At the end, around or after the lake scene? Again: yes. We've discussed the "What if Jack hadn't died?" many times and I'm still convinced that Ennis was almost there, almost had made all the way around the coffeepot, had almost found the handle (paraphrasing Lee here, because her analogy is so beautiful, hope you don't mind. BTW: Amanda (?) once said something about 'creating our own Brokieisms' and this phrasing is definately one. I've seen it couple of times).
 

[Marge_Innavera]

sometimes what makes you fall in love with someone is not enough to make a relationship work. We will never know, of course, if they would've made it as a live in couple, but it's something hasn't come up in the in the endless discussions about their relationship. I don't think it has, anyway.

Would it have worked? I wonder. It's hard enough to keep a long distance relationship going, but it is even harder to make it work under the same roof. I don't know, but this is something I have always wondered. What do you think?

I think generally, they would have been very good for each other. If Ennis could have lifted his head out of the homophobic pit long enough, there would have been several options even at that time and place. Two that I can think of would have been for one of them to nominally lease a ranch with the other as "foreman" or for them to build that cabin in Lightning Flat. Or if they decided on a compromise, Ennis could have stayed in Riverton until his child support payments were done and Jack get a place in a larger town within reasonable driving distance.  Such as Casper, or maybe Laramie if Ennis' sister was still living in Casper and he didn't want to risk her finding out.

They probably would have both had some surprises, but that's a universal experience when people marry or start living together.  As I've said elsewhere previously, Ennis has the idea that they'd be at risk because "this thing" could grab hold of them in public. Wouldn't happen!  Not with day-to-day life together, no matter how much passion you have between you; but they would have to be very careful about small mannerisms, touches, even some pet nicknames depending on what they are.

And Jack is naive enough to say in the reunion scene that "it could be just like this always." Not likely! But they would certainly get more long term satisfaction if they stuck to it.  That age-old principle: long-term but lower-intensity satisfactions vs. intense but transient ones.

Very good topic.

[nakymaton]

As for inheriting his dad's ranch, I've always wondered how come he didn't tell this to Ennis when he brought up the idea of the little cow and calf operation. He doesn't even tell Ennis about building a cabin and help his father on the ranch. This is something Ennis hears from Jack's dad and not from Jack himself. Jack only talked about LD giving him money to disappear. IMO Jack didn't think inheriting his father's ranch was something he could actually count on in order to pursue a life with Ennis.

There's an interesting story/movie difference in Jack's proposal of the "cow and calf operation." In the story, Ennis interrupts Jack in the middle of the proposal:

"You won't catch me again," said Jack. "Listen. I'm thinkin, tell you what, if you and me had a little ranch together, little cow and calf operation, your horses, it'd be some sweet life. Like I said, I'm gettin out a rodeo. I ain't no broke-dick rider but I don't got the bucks a ride out this slump I'm in and I don't got the bones a keep gettin wrecked. I got it figured, got this plan, Ennis, how we can do it, you and me. Lureen's old man, you bet he'd give me a bunch if I'd get lost. Already more or less said it -- "

"Whoa, whoa, whoa. It ain't goin a be that way..."

So Jack mentions Lureen's dad's money, but doesn't say it's for a down payment. And he never gets around to describing the plan. So maybe, if Ennis hadn't jumped in there, story-Jack was going to explain about Lightning Flat.

(But I don't know. I mean, Jack's father is so awful in the story.)

In the movie, Jack does lay out his whole plan, complete with Lureen's father providing the down payment on the imaginary ranch, and then there's this pause before Ennis responds. It isn't clear to me why movie-Jack never brings up Lightning Flat to Ennis. Was the plan unrealistic? Did Jack only start imagining Lightning Flat as an option later on? Did Jack have a whole bunch of competing dreams that he imagined at different times? I don't know.

[Marge_Innavera]

Ennis at least, would have to quit his daughters in order to be with Jack, and that is painful. No matter how happy Ennis can feel being with Jack, losing his daughters is a painful situation that puts a lot of strains in a relationship. I just don't picture Alma allowing Ennis to stay in their daughters' lives while living with Jack under the same roof. No way. And the worst part is that any judge will side with Alma on this.  

That would happen at the time; but what would happen in later years is less clear, as (1) times did change after Ennis and Jack first met; not that homophobia isn't still rampant. But racism is too; and the days of segregated lunch counters and interrcial marriage being called "miscegenation" are far behind us. And (2) Ennis' daughters being subject to Alma's decisions obviously wouldn't last beyond their 18th birthdays. After that, who knows? They might have grown up believing that their father had just deserted them or one or both of them might have decided to look up the dad who had left when they were so young and satisfy their curiosity.

Also, if they'd started living together in the mid-late 1960s, which is when Jack first proposes it, I doubt they'd be doing so openly. Even in cities, there would be problems and dangers. Painful as it might be, they could have made arrangements for Jack to not be there when the daughters visited. Actually, even today in some states heterosexual couples have to do that if they don't want to put the visitation arrangements in jeapordy.

I don't agree with the comments that they could have managed only in a perfect world, or even a better one. Both individuals and relationships manage to thrive under very hostile circumstances but if they'd stayed in rural Wyoming I suspect it would take some subterfuge and careful planning even today.

[nakymaton]

Maybe he really just wanted to get away from his old man. The little cow and calf operation was his idea.

True. But some people throw out wild ideas that they don't actually want to live with, not in reality. And Jack seems like he could be one of those people, from the way both Jack's father and Lureen comment on Jack's ideas not working out, in both the story and the movie. (Of course, the saddest thing is watching Ennis's awareness that he kept Jack's dream from coming true. I haven't watched the movie in a month or so, and I'm still tearing up just thinking about it. That little hint of a smile through tears that Ennis gets whenever someone describes Jack's dreams...  )

Not to change the subject, but has anyone ever commented on the fact that Jack took up the same rodeo event has his old man? Was that one more failed attempt to win his father's approval?

That's a really good question. I think it's come up, along with the fact that Jack still keeps going up to Lightning Flat every year and helping out. And I wonder, sometimes, if Jack told his father about Ennis in some kind of attempt to get his father to accept him (Jack). As if Jack could offer his father the help he needed on the ranch, and get his father to see Jack in a better light as a result.

[opinionista]

There's an interesting story/movie difference in Jack's proposal of the "cow and calf operation." In the story, Ennis interrupts Jack in the middle of the proposal:

"You won't catch me again," said Jack. "Listen. I'm thinkin, tell you what, if you and me had a little ranch together, little cow and calf operation, your horses, it'd be some sweet life. Like I said, I'm gettin out a rodeo. I ain't no broke-dick rider but I don't got the bucks a ride out this slump I'm in and I don't got the bones a keep gettin wrecked. I got it figured, got this plan, Ennis, how we can do it, you and me. Lureen's old man, you bet he'd give me a bunch if I'd get lost. Already more or less said it -- "

"Whoa, whoa, whoa. It ain't goin a be that way..."

So Jack mentions Lureen's dad's money, but doesn't say it's for a down payment. And he never gets around to describing the plan. So maybe, if Ennis hadn't jumped in there, story-Jack was going to explain about Lightning Flat.

(But I don't know. I mean, Jack's father is so awful in the story.)

In the movie, Jack does lay out his whole plan, complete with Lureen's father providing the down payment on the imaginary ranch, and then there's this pause before Ennis responds. It isn't clear to me why movie-Jack never brings up Lightning Flat to Ennis. Was the plan unrealistic? Did Jack only start imagining Lightning Flat as an option later on? Did Jack have a whole bunch of competing dreams that he imagined at different times? I don't know.

Thank you! I didn't notice it. It puts the whole situation in a different perspective then. It means that maybe Jack wasn't so much of a dreamer as he is portrayed in the movie, and that he did have a coherent and reliable plan for a ranch operation. But who knows.

[ednbarby]

I like to think that John Twist would have so wanted/needed help on the ranch, and from two young men instead of just one who in his mind can never do anything right to boot, that he'd have been willing to mostly look the other way about their relationship.  Oh, he'd have bitched and snickered about it, and probably mostly to Jack's poor mom, but he'd have looked the other way to get that help.  I think Jack knew that.  And I think he was just floating the idea of their own little cow and calf operation to test the waters with Ennis.  If he'd have gone for it, Jack would have clarified that it was his father's ranch he was thinking they could "whip into shape" and make profitable again, and that when Old Man Twist kicked off, it'd be all theirs.

And I absolutely think he took to bull riding in an attempt to impress his Dad.  Or show him up.  Or more than likely both.  The line "He kept his secrets to himself, never taught me a thing, never once come to see me ride" and the bitterness with which it's said pretty says it all.