Author Topic: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?  (Read 12817 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« on: April 26, 2006, 05:20:14 pm »
This just came up on another thread, and turns out disagreement about it, so we might as well hash this one out, too. When Ennis says in that final argument that Jack's activities in Mexico could get him killed if Ennis came to know them, was he really not foolin?

Or was that just something he came up with in the heat of anger?

I'm in the latter camp. Ennis may be upset about Jack straying, he might be hot-tempered and prone to impulsive violence, but no way would he seriously hurt Jack.

What do you all think?

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2006, 05:28:46 pm »
I think that the last time Ennis hit Jack, Ennis spent four long years regretting it.

Ennis may have a short fuse, but I don't think he would be able to hurt Jack again without remembering how much he hurt himself as well, the last time.
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moremojo

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2006, 05:29:26 pm »
Agreed. I just can't see Ennis ever intentionally hurting Jack. This is a guy who has only ever let his emotions come out in passionate outbursts, and I think he says these words in the heat of anger.

Now, I wonder if Jack feels that Ennis could never hurt him. He certainly doesn't back down when Ennis confronts him, though he is obviously hurt by what he hears--note the mixture of anger and sadness on his face. My feeling is that Jack did not fear Ennis (at least by this point in their relationship), but was definitely very vulnerable to how Ennis's choices and actions affected him.

Offline JCinNYC2006

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2006, 05:35:20 pm »
I think it's definitely possible.  Maybe not likely, but he does show a violent side here and there, even the punch on their last day on the mountain.  He almost punched Alma even and she was pregnant.  It's not a very attractive or appealing side to him, but sad to say it's there.

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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2006, 06:38:51 pm »
God, I hope not.

I don't think he would ever do something "premeditated," but depending on the context of how and when he came to learn the specifics, I have to agree with Juan. I think Ennis was capable of losing control and getting violent, though, again, I hope it would stop short of actual murder.

I've seen Ennis react to stressful situations with violence too often in this film not to entertain the possibility.
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Offline MaineWriter

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2006, 06:47:46 pm »
Victoria had a wonderful post 1000 years ago (over on TOB or the old CT) where she analyzed the conversation as a lover's quarrel and said, "this is how lovers fight." Understood exactly why each one said just what they did when they did. It made perfect sense to me. Vic, you reading this? Any chance you have that post saved somewhere on your hard drive or wherever??

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Offline FuzzyChanny

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2006, 06:53:45 pm »
I definitely think it was something he just said in the heat of the moment, because Jack did admit to it, and I didn't see Ennis running for his hunting rifle...
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2006, 08:15:16 pm »
It was all talk spoken in anger.  Ennis couldn't possibly have killed Jack.  Just another show of his impotency/powerlessness in life.  As it is, Ennis can hardly stand to live without him.

Offline RouxB

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2006, 08:55:10 pm »
No he didn't mean it! He was just lit up and talking trash. It was just his way of emphasizing his point and he you when Ennis gets heated, he is none to subtle. I love him.

 O0


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Offline Flashframe777

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2006, 09:01:28 pm »
Yeah, he was foolin'.  Couldn't you see how much he loved Jack?
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2006, 10:44:22 pm »
About Ennis's violent side: yes, it's there. But I think that, as Ennis ages, he becomes less likely to hurt other people and more likely to get hurt himself. He punches Jack at the end of the summer; he beats up the bikers at the 4th of July (and scares Alma in the process). But then at Thanksgiving, although he threatens Alma, he doesn't hit her; instead, he storms out and gets himself beaten up. And he tries to hit Jack again, when Jack hugs him at the end of the lake scene -- and that's such a great bookend to The Punch -- and this time, Ennis doesn't manage to hit Jack. Either Jack's holding on too hard, or Ennis just doesn't really have it in him to hit Jack, whatever Ennis says, but there's an attempted punch there that fails.
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Offline juneaux

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2006, 12:35:35 am »
Although Ennis was hurt at the thought of Jack with another man and the primary way Ennis dealt with his emtions was, for the most part, through physical violence I do not believe he would have harmed Jack.  In fact after he collapses on the ground doesn't he mumble "I can't take this anymore" or something to that effect?  Jack didn't think Ennis "wanted" a life together "bad enough" when Ennis' recation showed him otherwise. 
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2006, 01:08:17 am »
I definitely think it was something he just said in the heat of the moment, because Jack did admit to it, and I didn't see Ennis running for his hunting rifle...

LOL! Good point, FuzzyChanny!

This too, nakymaton:

I think that the last time Ennis hit Jack, Ennis spent four long years regretting it.

Ennis may have a short fuse, but I don't think he would be able to hurt Jack again without remembering how much he hurt himself as well, the last time.

This is one of my least favorite lines in the movie, not just because it puts Ennis in a bad light, but because it seems too over the top. Not only do I not believe Ennis would kill (or even hurt) Jack, if I hadn't heard him with my own ears I wouldn't believe he could threaten to, either.

I think one of the functions of the 4th of July scene is to contrast it with the fight that broke out when they were leaving the mountain. On the mountain, they were fake-fighting. For most of it they weren't really trying to hurt each other, even if Ennis did wind up impulsively punching Jack. On the other hand, he WAS trying to hurt the bikers, or at least scare them off, and that fight looked pretty different.



vkm91941

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2006, 01:15:14 am »
Victoria had a wonderful post 1000 years ago (over on TOB or the old CT) where she analyzed the conversation as a lover's quarrel and said, "this is how lovers fight." Understood exactly why each one said just what they did when they did. It made perfect sense to me. Vic, you reading this? Any chance you have that post saved somewhere on your hard drive or wherever??

Leslie

I didn't save it, it was a long time ago before we ever knew we had to save these things.  But the gist of it was.  

This is a lovers quarrel, it is not the end of the relationship, evidenced by Ennis sending the post card to Jack asking if November was still OK ( the one that came back marked deceased)..  I do NOT believe that Jack ever took up seriously with Randall.  There is a certain kind of fight between lovers that is a relationship adjustment, where things that have been simmering come to the surface, as Annie Proulx says in the story "here it was late and unexpected"  this was nothing new between them.  They just both pushed a couple of each others buttons and spouted off.   When lovers fight, they quarrel,  and then reconcile, each time there is compromise, each time you grow closer..if the love is true.

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2006, 03:29:18 am »
The only thing I can add to what's been said is that it always seems to me that part of what Ennis is doing there is making clear that even now, he is aligning himself with the homophobes and not with the homosexual.  It's what he got taught - when you find out that someone has had sex with a man, you kill them.  He could somehow torque it inside of himself that he himself ain't queer, so that doesn't count.  But if Jack has sex with another man, well that is queer, and thus a killable offense.

It's almost like he says it out loud pro forma, for any homophobes who might be listening, just like when on the mountain he leans back to watch Jack ride away, and then quickly catches himself and LOOKS AROUND, to see if anyone else has noticed that he was watching another guy.  He carries his homophobic lynch mob with him everywhere he goes, even way out in the middle of nowhere.


vkm91941

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2006, 03:31:50 am »
The only thing I can add to what's been said is that it always seems to me that part of what Ennis is doing there is making clear that even now, he is aligning himself with the homophobes and not with the homosexual.  It's what he got taught - when you find out that someone has had sex with a man, you kill them.  He could somehow torque it inside of himself that he himself ain't queer, so that doesn't count.  But if Jack has sex with another man, well that is queer, and thus a killable offense.

It's almost like he says it out loud pro forma, for any homophobes who might be listening, just like when on the mountain he leans back to watch Jack ride away, and then quickly catches himself and LOOKS AROUND, to see if anyone else has noticed that he was watching another guy.  He carries his homophobic lynch mob with him everywhere he goes, even way out in the middle of nowhere.



Excellent insights Clarissa I especially like that last line..it is so descriptive of the place Ennis inhabits inside his own head.

Offline JCinNYC2006

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2006, 09:27:15 am »
The only thing I can add to what's been said is that it always seems to me that part of what Ennis is doing there is making clear that even now, he is aligning himself with the homophobes and not with the homosexual.  It's what he got taught - when you find out that someone has had sex with a man, you kill them.  He could somehow torque it inside of himself that he himself ain't queer, so that doesn't count.  But if Jack has sex with another man, well that is queer, and thus a killable offense.

It's almost like he says it out loud pro forma, for any homophobes who might be listening, just like when on the mountain he leans back to watch Jack ride away, and then quickly catches himself and LOOKS AROUND, to see if anyone else has noticed that he was watching another guy.  He carries his homophobic lynch mob with him everywhere he goes, even way out in the middle of nowhere.


Yeah, excellent points.  I think Ennis has very mixed feelings about Jack and about his sexuality.  It's like with the line, 'It's cuz of you I'm like this', which I'm sure has also been dissected in some thread, I think Ennis has some anger and resentment towards Jack for 'bringing out' his feelings for him, and in a way, putting them both in danger (in Ennis' mind).  Even if he would never have followed through, his threatening Jack for being with another guy, which to him would be a betrayal, is not unlike how heterosexual men threaten their wives if they were to leave them.  And sadly, many women do get killed when they leave an abusive relationship.

I'm definitely not saying that Ennis and Jack have an abusive relationship.  But another thing that saddens me about Ennis is how often he's seen at a table with five or six empty beer bottles.  The power of his character, for me, is how pained he is and how he struggles to deal with his life, and I think what draws people to be so empathic with him.  I know there are times when I can so relate to him.

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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2006, 09:43:15 am »
The only thing I can add to what's been said is that it always seems to me that part of what Ennis is doing there is making clear that even now, he is aligning himself with the homophobes and not with the homosexual.  It's what he got taught - when you find out that someone has had sex with a man, you kill them.  He could somehow torque it inside of himself that he himself ain't queer, so that doesn't count.  But if Jack has sex with another man, well that is queer, and thus a killable offense.

Thanks for saying that, Clarissa, in particular, "He could somehow torque it inside of himself that he himself ain't queer, so that doesn't count." While I do believe that Ennis is jealous of the idea of Jack having sex with other guys, I've been convinced for months that the intensity of Ennis's reaction to Jack's revelation is rooted in his own internalized homophobia.
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Offline sparkle_motion

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2006, 10:51:38 am »
I have to disagree with the current point being made. This was brought up a few months ago on IMDb. Some people made the point that after 20 years, Ennis realized that he was homosexual but I disagree with that point as well.
Ennis still denied to himself and others that he was homosexual, even after 20 years.
However, when he made that particular comment about killing Jack, I think it was made purely out of jealousy.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2006, 12:32:18 pm »
I have argued about this before, notably with Jeff, who made some persuasive points. My own position on the gauge -- pure jealousy on one end and pure homophobia on the other -- has always hovered closer to the jealousy end. But I'll have to say, Clarissa, that your vivid image of an internal lynch mob nudged it a notch or two toward the homophobia end.

Still, I think Ennis' primary emotions here are anger and fear, in reaction to Jack's grim manner and ominous past-tense "I did, ONCE," and his suspicion that Jack already has been unfaithful and may be slipping away altogether. And as we all know, when Ennis feels overwhelmed by scary emotions his impulse is to try to control them with violence. (Speaking of good images, I love Anthony Lane's phrase that Ennis acts as if "the only option for the unrequited is to waylay one's own heart and beat it senseless.")

When Ennis says "boys like you," it suggests to me that he already has at least partly acknowledged what kind of boy Jack is, if not by extension himself. He doesn't say he'd kill Jack because he IS a boy like that, he says he would kill Jack if he personally were to be made aware of his specific boyish activities. As to what Ennis thinks HE is, you'd think he'd have noticed at some point that he finds men more attractive than women, and that if he was able to suppress that feeling when he was 19, over the next 20 years that realization would at least give him pause.


Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2006, 03:11:52 pm »
Wow what an insightful post, Clarissa and everyone. My feeling is that Ennis blows up like that not because of jealousy or homophobia but fear of losing control and being found out. He wants to keep Jack on a short leash that doesn't reach to Mexico. Also he is starting to panic because he sees Jack weighing over things in his mind, and it dawns on him that Jack might make a move to change things. Ennis can't stand the thought of anything changing, especially suddenly. No, he's not fooling and if he can't get control of himself he might hurt Jack. A man who might punch, or even threaten to punch a pregnant lady could do anything. However his threats do not dissuade Jack in the least. He forges on with the best weapons he has, words. "We coulda had a good life...but you didn't want it, Ennis. And now all we have is Brokeback Mountain. F**king all. Everything's built on that."
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Offline isabelle

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2006, 03:31:14 pm »
I cannot imagine Ennis really hurting Jack to the point of murder, but yeah, he does have a short fuse and his way of dealing with anger or when he feels trapped is violence. I agree that it is deeply rooted in his homophobia too in that scene by the lake.

But someone on IMDb saw so much violence in Ennis that she actually started a thread claiming that she had the answer as to 'how Jack died': Ennis murdered him!

I must admit I rolled with laughter at the time, but then it is true that I had downplayed Ennis's violent streak.
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Offline Kd5000

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2006, 03:57:43 pm »
Ennis is capable of violence, with the bikers and outside of the bar with that guy in the pick-up truck. Those were strangers, but he seems to have picked the fight in both occurances.  With the exception of his 19 year old punch at Jack when they were first parting, I don't think Ennis would ever hurt someone he loved as much as Jack.

Jack does difuse Ennis's emotional blowup  by admittingn to those trips to Mexico and saying some rather matter of fact statements about what sort of life they've had and how it could have been so much more. It must have been like a punch in the stomach to Ennis. Hence he heaves over. So much for the phrase "words don't hurt me."   

Ennis has some anger mgt issues, I just think he takes it out on strangers.


Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2007, 11:59:45 am »
We never did resolve this!! I repeat: what in hell happened in April??

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2009, 11:17:47 pm »
I have still not figured this out!! Help me, please!
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Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Ennis foolin when he threatened Jack?
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2009, 11:56:55 pm »
April?

Good question that you pose!

I have just read all posts and can not see about that neither!

Moremojo, you can help? Others, all, too?

P.S.: I aim to create a thread much more ardent and/or severe than this one, can anyone guess??