Author Topic: lovable subtle details  (Read 476107 times)

Offline inwooder

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Re: lovable subtle details
« Reply #550 on: December 30, 2009, 11:11:49 pm »
Hi Everyone, sorta new here. Just saw BBM for the FIRST time two months ago. Several questions if you could help me answer:

What did Ang mean by the following "back ground clips"? I am assuming they all have some meaning and were choosen for a reason-

1. When Ennis and Alma are at the drive through-why did Ang pick that movie and that scene? What did it mean?

2. When Ennis and Alma are watching TV with the girls, why did Ang pick that scene to show playing on the TV? And what did it mean?

3. Next scene-(this is right after we see Jack ask Lureen where is blue parka is) Ennis is getting ready to go fishing with Jack, he is packing his bag in his bedroom and there is, off camera, a man talking. He is describing someone, "construction worker...etc" What is that supposed to mean or symbolize?

I think thats all. I apologize if these were all discussed at length some time ago.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: lovable subtle details
« Reply #551 on: December 31, 2009, 03:13:12 pm »
Hi, inwooder, and welcome! Thanks for reviving this thread! These are hard questions, so I will tackle them one by one, starting with the third one. As Ennis is packing to meet Jack for a "fishing" trip, we hear the radio in the background, where a joke is being told about a big guy, a construction worker, and a little guy. There seems to be a subtext to the joke, hidden meanings that are not expressed but only implied. My feeling is that this background dialogue was chosen for two reasons: it shows the homophobia that is just under the surface in daily life of people in those times (as well as now) and, secondly, it hints at the duplicity of Ennis, the fact that he was leading a double life.

Another thing that happens in this scene is that Ennis gropes in the kitchen cupboard to get his canister (what does he keep in it, coffee or whiskey?) and then heads out the door. Alma, without looking up, says, "Forgettin something?" He has almost left without his fishing creel and net! Later we find out that Alma, through stealthy means, has found out that Ennis doesn't use his fishing gear on these trips. She has ceased to care, though, and casually reads a newspaper. Maybe she is reading the grocery specials for the week that Monroe is offering! It's a good transition scene that illustrates the "slow corrosion" between Alma and Ennis, and the enduring spark between Ennis and Jack.

3. Next scene-(this is right after we see Jack ask Lureen where is blue parka is) Ennis is getting ready to go fishing with Jack, he is packing his bag in his bedroom and there is, off camera, a man talking. He is describing someone, "construction worker...etc" What is that supposed to mean or symbolize?
I think thats all. I apologize if these were all discussed at length some time ago.
They may have been discussed before, but never resolved certainly. Such is the nature of Ang Lee's work, always leaving that "open space" between what we know and what we believe!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline inwooder

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Re: lovable subtle details
« Reply #552 on: December 31, 2009, 03:35:21 pm »
Hey Front Ranger,

Thanks for responding. I have posted this/these questions on others sites, but with no response. I agree with what you've described and why. It seems Ang wanted us to see the constant fear that Ennis lived under. He is going to see Jack while having to listen to a homophobic joke on the radio/tv. Hope you can make heads or tails of the other two examples!




Offline inwooder

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Re: lovable subtle details
« Reply #553 on: December 31, 2009, 03:37:58 pm »
And another one!

Jack says "Shit" three times in the beginning of the movie, then, when Jack is ministering to the cut on Ennis' head, Ennis says "shit" under his breath. And, I think, Jack doesn't really say it anymore and Ennis is the one who says it for the rest of the movie. What do y'all make of that?

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: lovable subtle details
« Reply #554 on: December 31, 2009, 04:07:17 pm »
That's very interesting about the "shit" inwooder! I had not noticed that. There are some corrolaries, though. One is that Ennis is facing a certain way during the early scenes of the movie, and then the opposite way (most of the time) during the rest of the movie. Some of us theorized that Jack and Ennis sort of traded roles halfway through their relationship, not just the sheep herder/camp tender roles.

I wonder if there's something that Ennis does or says during the early part of the movie that he trades with Jack. Jack certainly does become more close-mouthed during the latter part of the movie.

Since Ang Lee is a follower of the Tao te Ching, this is a logical expression of the concept that everything contains its opposite and that complementary aspects of nature are in balance and in flux.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Meryl

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Re: lovable subtle details
« Reply #555 on: December 31, 2009, 04:42:30 pm »
Hi and welcome to BetterMost, inwood.  8)

Please check out this great subforum for extensive writings on the symbolism in Brokeback gleaned from our early discussions on IMDb.  Some of your questions may be answered there.  I've included a link to one particular discussion about your first question.

IMDb Remarkable Writings Rewound: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/board,61.0.html

1. When Ennis and Alma are at the drive through-why did Ang pick that movie and that scene? What did it mean?

Check out this thread by Casey Cornelius:  http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,13719.msg0.html#new

The Open Forum also has 18 pages of topics discussing the movie.  You'll find answers here to questions you never thought you had.  Enjoy the exploration!  :)

Meryl
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: lovable subtle details
« Reply #556 on: December 31, 2009, 04:49:09 pm »
Inwooder, I'm researching those two visuals, one seen at the drive-in and the other on television. But while I'm doing that, I'd like to address your comment:
Quote
What did Ang mean by the following "back ground clips"? I am assuming they all have some meaning and were chosen for a reason-
I agree with you that these scenes were chosen with a lot of thought. To give you an example of another small loveable detail, consider the snatches of harmonica playing we hear from Jack. As explained below by EDelMar (from earlier in this thread), these tiny bits of songs are actually clues to the plot and the personality of Jack:

Jack's harmonica, both times he plays, is positively a variant of "He Was a Friend of Mine".  Gustavo Santaolalla is the actual player, and using his own harmonica, in a recording studio.  (The "amateur" sound he's mimicking is actually quite hard to duplicate... but gives the flavor of someone not very good at playing harmonica.)

Open up the first harmonica sound bit (campfire scene).  It has 4 sections.  Here are the corresponding lyrics to those sections:
#1:  Heeeeeeee was a friend of miiiiiiiine.  He--- [cuts off here]
#2:  Heeeee--
#3:  Was a friend of mine.
#4:  [He] just kept on movin',

On the 2nd harmonica piece as they're going up the hill.  It has 5 sections back to back.
#1:  Heeee was a friend of miiiiiiiine.
#2:  [He] just kept on movin',
#3:  Heeee waas a frieeeend  (bad key...improvised)
#4:  Was a frieeeeend    (again bad key...improvised)
#5:  Was a friend of mine.

It's a contortion of the song really...again deliberately warped and twisted.  :)

"He Was a Friend of Mine" as we know it today is the collaborative work of 3 artists circa 1960: Bob Dylan, David Van Ronk and Eric von Schmidt.  Dylan once said he got it from Blind Arvella Gray, a street musician in Chicago, but that's probably not true.  WELL, he might have heard "Shorty George" being played by this musician.  (See below).  David Van Ronk stated at a concert once (right before playing the song), "I learned this song from Eric von Schmidt, who learned it from Dylan, who learned it from me".  Around 1980 the 3 artists mutually decided to split royalty monies for the song.

Dylan recorded his version (upon which the Willie Nelson version was based) in 1961.

The ORIGINAL version is Shorty George, a southeastern US african spiritual or something written by Smith Casey.  I have this recording; it's not readily available, and was recorded in 1939 for the US Library of Congress.

If you want to hear all 3 versions, come to Brokeback BBQ 2007 (http://www.brokeback2007.com) and I will have them there along with a large portion of the rest of the master soundtrack and early versions of stuff.

In the late 1960s the Grateful Dead played a song called "He Was A Friend of Mine" as well.  Different lyrics, and that was really just a PORTION of another song, by Mark Spolestra from 1965, "Just a Hand to Hold".  THIS SONG undoubtedly was inspired by "He Was a Friend of Mine" by Dylan/Van Ronk/von Schmidt because 1 year after Dylan recorded his version, Spolestra performed with him AND Van Ronk in New York City frequently.

  -Ennis

PS: Ossana and MacMurtry originally scheduled Jack's 2 harmonica pieces to be "Kaw-Liga" and "Bad Brahma Bull".  I have those too; come to the BBQ!!

Ang Lee certainly chose his audio and visuals for a definite reason!!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: lovable subtle details
« Reply #557 on: December 31, 2009, 07:04:52 pm »

Check out this thread by Casey Cornelius:  http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,13719.msg0.html#new

Meryl

Meryl, thank you for pointing us to that illuminating thread by Casey Cornelius about the use of the Surf's Up movie clip!! It is very enlightening!

Did Casey ever discuss the use of the Olympic ice skating music in the argument at Thanksgiving scene between Ennis and Alma?
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Offline inwooder

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Re: lovable subtle details
« Reply #558 on: January 01, 2010, 03:43:30 pm »


The Open Forum also has 18 pages of topics discussing the movie.  You'll find answers here to questions you never thought you had.  Enjoy the exploration!  :)

Meryl
[/quote]

Hi Meryl,

Thank you for the link. I have found, read, and now understand the drive in movie scene. I think its a strong statement that Ennis is now trying to do the "right" thing. Marry a woman and have a child. And society is telling him-through the movie- that what he wants to do is illegal. (be with Jack as reminded to us by Alma grabbing his hand and pulling it down to her belly)

Offline Meryl

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Re: lovable subtle details
« Reply #559 on: January 01, 2010, 03:57:28 pm »
You're welcome, inwood.  Glad to be of help!  8)

Did Casey ever discuss the use of the Olympic ice skating music in the argument at Thanksgiving scene between Ennis and Alma?

It's quite possible, but I don't remember a specific thread where it might be.
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