Author Topic: An Old Man's Rambling Thoughts -- by ClancyPantsNasty  (Read 14403 times)

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An Old Man's Rambling Thoughts -- by ClancyPantsNasty
« on: June 11, 2007, 07:02:15 am »
Another classic REPOST from TOB
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An old man's rambling thoughts   
  by ClancyPantsNasty   (Sat Apr 7 2007 23:55:31 )   

   
This is just a big, long ramble... but it might spark some interesting discussions...

I was thinking about something that got me wondering…

A good number of people mention Lureen’s delivery of the tire explosion story to Ennis as evidence that she’s lying. I have often pointed out that Ennis’ delivery of the story of how his folks died is also a bit strange – he shakes his head, kind of laughs it off, and sort of makes a joke of it. I have never seen anyone chime in about Ennis’ delivery. So this got me wondering…

Are these scenes mirrors of each other? Or, maybe these two sections of the film.

It starts when the phone rings in Aguirre’s trailer. He talks to someone about something, we know not. Ennis, he also knows not. The only other time a telephone is used is when Ennis calls Lureen. Each phone call ends rather abruptly and rudely with both Aguirre and Lureen making a “death” comment – “Not on your f-in life” and “about the ashes, I mean.” In each scene, Ennis is told to go somewhere – “Fridays at noon be down at the bridge” and “Get in touch with his folks.” In the Aguirre directive, Ennis is supposed to get the food that will take care of himself and Jack; however, we have an added scene of him actually getting the food and the point is that Ennis is specifically doing it for Jack, trying to fulfill one of Jack’s wishes. Lureen’s directive sends Ennis to Lightning Flat to get the ashes to take them to Brokeback, to fulfill one of Jack’s wishes. Ennis' efforts are thwarted in each. During the Aguirre phone call, only one thing is really happening: Ennis and Jack are checking each other out – and, of course, there are two ways of looking at this, they may be checking each other out simply in terms of being brought together for their shared summer job, or they may be checking each other out… well, YOU know!   The point is, Ennis does not know anything about Jack during this first phone call. In the second phone, the one with Lureen, I mean, Ennis learns some things about Jack: Jack used to talk about Ennis (Lureen has heard of him as the fishin’ or huntin’ buddy), Jack kept his friends addresses in his head, how Jack died, that he wanted to be cremated and his ashes spread on Brokeback, and that Brokeback was Jack’s favorite place. In the first phone call, Ennis knows nothing about Jack but is starting to learn (from observation) and in the second, he learns a lot about Jack that he either didn’t know or couldn’t have known before.

So I think the telephones connect these scenes and then the bar scene that follows the first phone call continues the mirroring. In the bar scene, it’s Ennis and Jack talking. Jack is telling Ennis things about himself that, at that time, only Jack could have told him. In the phone call with Lureen, Ennis is learning things about Jack from the only other person who could have told Ennis these things – later Ennis learns more about Jack from Jack’s parents and that scene continues the mirroring. In the bar scene, Jack first learns about Ennis; in the Lureen phone call scene, Lureen learns more about the truth of Ennis.

In both the bar scene and the phone call scene we hear a story about how someone died. Ennis tells of his folks’ deaths and Lureen tells Ennis about Jack’s death. Each death is described rather strangely. The interesting thing to me comes from looking at the conditions of the deceased people before their deaths. Jack had been in a relationship with Ennis for twenty years and it was not going where he wanted it to go. He stood it for as long as he could, tried to fix, but couldn’t, and quite possibly found a solution out of his dilemma in Randall, possibly leading to his death. Ennis’ parents had three kids, a two-mortgage ranch, and $24 in a coffee can. Now, Ennis’ dad taught Ennis a couple life lessons that Ennis clung to: 1) Being queer brings on or is deserving of death, and 2) If you can’t fix it, you gotta stand it – this is made more clear in the short story with the motel discussion, about K.E., I mean.

Is it possible that Ennis’ dad saw the dilemma he, himself, was in and he knew he couldn’t fix it or stand it any longer? One curve in a 43-mile road and he missed it. Is there an implication that Ennis’ dad committed suicide to leave the kids to the state knowing he couldn’t find a way out of their situation? “No, they run themselves off.” This is NOT a major plot point or anything like that. However, it does seem that the story/film leaves a few doors open that if we investigate a bit we might learn a bit more about a central character. For example, Ennis learned from his dad that if he cannot fix it, he must stand it. However, did he also learn from his father that there may come a point where he cannot fix it or stand it and then what is he to do? If there is an implication from Lureen’s description that Jack died other than by an exploding tire, could there also be an implication, from Ennis’ delivery, that his folks may have died from something other than black-humorously missing the only curve in a very, very long road? We’re told that Jack died one way, but we’re led to believe something else. Could it be that **Ennis** gave Jack a bogus story about how his folks died (perhaps to save face?) and this develops the character of Ennis a bit such that we can understand more about Ennis thinking that Lureen was giving a bogus story (to save face, perhaps)? Does Ennis think to himself, “No, it wasn’t a freak tire exploding, it was a tire iron – that’s the reality of this life” because his father showed him the reality of this life at the Earl death scene? Did Ennis’ father show him another reality of this life? If you can’t fix it and you can’t stand it, then the only other option is death. Ennis doesn’t need to die because Jack died. That ended Ennis’ dilemma of not being able to fix or stand anymore.

Could it be that Ennis’ father simply got careless on the road? Did Jack get careless on his own road, stepping out with Randall, incurring the wrath of his homophobic townsfolk?

Is there a symbolic element at work here? Roads are often used as metaphors for a life’s journey. We’re told that Ennis’ folks and Jack each died on the road, with a car involved, in a freak accident. Neither event happened directly to Ennis, but each event directly put Ennis onto his own new road, his new life journey.

During the bar scene Ennis learns about Jack from Jack; during the phone call Ennis learns about Jack from Lureen. Jack wanted to get away from Lightning Flat, Brokeback was his favorite place. Contrast: “Last year one storm the lightning killed 42 sheep. Thought I’d asphyxiate from the smell. Aguirre got all over my ass like I was supposed to control the weather.” With: “…but I wasn’t sure where that was. I thought Brokeback Mountain might be around where he grew up. But knowing Jack, it might be some pretend place where bluebirds sing and there’s a whiskey spring.” Jack’s description of Brokeback is grounded in a reality, understood by Jack. However, Lureen’s description is grounded in fantasy, from a misunderstanding of Jack. Jack thought he’d asphyxiate, that is, die by a deficiency in the intake of oxygen – drowning in blood, same thing. We saw that Jack drank a lot of beers in the bar scene and Lureen said he drank a lot. Jack talks about his folks and Lightning Flat, so does Lureen.

There are a lot of similar elements in these scenes and they very well may symbolically or metaphorically link together. After all, the author herself said the coffee pot is true and Ang Lee said in his interview that he continued both the coffee and the soup/beans metaphors from the short story into the film.

Anyway, these are just a lot of random musings that I thought I’d throw out there before I take off again. I’ll be around for a week, but will be awfully busy -- $100,000 busy! Ha ha! That’s my little in-joke. That slays me!   I’ll try and check in, but then after a week, I’m off for a bit longer, but will, of course, check back in after that.

Anybody have any ideas on this?

Re: An old man's rambling thoughts   
  by Doug-Nasty   (Sun Apr 8 2007 01:30:41 )
   

Clancy: All I can say is: "Ramble on, brother." You raise some very interesting thoughts about the possibility of more "mirrored" or "bookend" scenes. Very intriguing stuff, I might add.

Thanks for your intelligent, "rambling thoughts".


Doug-Nasty





"There ain't no reins on this one"

Re: An old man's rambling thoughts   
  by retropian   (Sun Apr 8 2007 06:20:50 )   

   
Clancy, that's a very interesting observation. Man, the dialog is so spare yet so loaded with meaning. Like you said, a road is often a metaphor for life's journey. The case of Ennis's parents missing that curve I think it foreshadows what happens to Ennis. What happened to Ennis's parents does occur in reality. Driving for miles and miles on a straight stretch of freeway can be hypnotizing and people do miss those curves, although it's not always fatal.

Ennis is telling us what will happen to him. He is driving down a stretch of road that symbolizes the direction of his life. It is a road built by others, built by society. He is following what he believes is the right way, the straight way if you will, the way society tells him he should go. Like so many others he is following that road unthinkingly, only half awake, he is not attentive enough to make an unexpected turn: Jack. The curve in the road for Ennis is taking up the sweet life with Jack. He misses it, he's not physically killed, but something in his soul is.


Re: An old man's rambling thoughts   
  by garycottle   (Sun Apr 8 2007 20:07:43 )   

   
Hi retropain,

Since you were working on this idea of roads symbolizing the strictures of society, I wanted to remind you that soon after Ennis came down from Brokeback, and resumed his "straight and narrow path" with Alam, he spends some time working on a road crew. And he didn't look too happy in that scene if I recall.

Gary

Re: An old man's rambling thoughts   
  by retropian   (Mon Apr 9 2007 15:35:56 )   

   
Hi Gary. Yes! I never thought of that. In retrospect is seems so obvious a metaphor. Many people have questioned what that road crew scene was all about. Of course! Ennis is toiling at constructing the very road he is told he needs to follow, and it's un-fulfilling work.

Re: An old man's rambling thoughts   
  by latjoreme   (Mon Apr 9 2007 16:18:47 )   

   
Ohh, good one, Gary and retropian. Ennis is literally on the road he has chosen to take in life and it looks bleak and he looks miserable. Wow.

One of the first astounding things I learned, shortly after I came onto this board, was how much info was packed into that tiny little scene. This is what suddenly opened my mind to the film's enormous complexity (I think of it as my Helen Keller at the water pump moment). Up until then, I thought the scene's purpose was just to establish how boring Ennis' life had become, how bleak his potential future (represented by Timmy) might be, how unappealing a coworker Timmy was, compared to Jack. Then Casey Cornelius pointed out that Timmy had talked about breaking his back, an allusion to Brokeback (it's probably not accidental, either, that Timmy refers to his heterosexual marriage), and we discussed the idea that Ennis was thinking of Jack as he gazed off into the distance, at a green field which represents the natural world, i.e. Jack and Ennis' relationship. And I think at some point we also discussed the idea that Ennis is paving over this natural world -- symbolically suduing it with the substance of society.

Then later Clancy drew the connection between the idea of pavement and the point later in the movie when Ennis tells Jack about going "out on the pavement" and having people look at him as if they know he's gay. So this scene could also be an early example of Ennis' paranoia about their relationship.

And here, a year later, is yet another meaning! All of these ideas present in a scene that lasts, what, a couple of minutes, and doesn't appear particularly important!

This movie continues to amaze me.

Re: An old man's rambling thoughts   
  by shortfic   (Mon Apr 9 2007 19:42:11 )
   
   
It's astonishing how much mileage they can get out of a few lines of dialogue and how much meaning can be carried in such a compressed way.
Thanks for the thread!


"Say thank you, Gilbert. Say thank you."

hi Latjoreme!   
  by retropian   (Tue Apr 10 2007 02:07:41 )   

   
"(I think of it as my Helen Keller at the water pump moment)."

LMAO! I'm going to use that in my life if you don't mind. OMG! That was my Hellen Keller Moment! LOL! I can think of so many of those; How could I not have understood? moments in my life! So Homer Simpson D'oh! I'm such a Helen Keller, please dump a bucket of water on me!

Re: An old man's rambling thoughts   
  by Dancing_Bear   (Tue Apr 10 2007 06:01:02 )
   
   
Now that they've separated out these posting pages it's harder for me to save threads, but this one is definitely a keeper... Clancy, Retropian and latjoreme, I learned a lot, thank you. Anybody got tips on easier ways to save threads with these doggone pagebreaks? Do I have to do it page by page?

Re: An old man's rambling thoughts   
  by spiceylife   (Tue Apr 10 2007 06:28:57 )   

   
Hi, Dancing Bear. 

Do you have your 'Messages Per Page' in your profile set to 50? That takes out a lot of the page breaks in a thread, although once the thread reaches that length, you'll get the page break anyway. But if you set it to 50, that helps a lot when the thread is still relatively short.

Yeah, it's sweet. One moment where Ennis gives Jack what he's after - the tenderness - HL

Re: An old man's rambling thoughts   
  by NewHorizons37   (Tue Apr 10 2007 07:24:01 )
   
   
Thank you very much spiceylife, that really helps.

clancy, thanks once again for a really thought-provoking post, and the great comments it generated.

I recall someone in the past discussing the claim that Lureen must be lying because the story of Jack's death sounded so far-fetched, and she delivered it in such an unemotional way. Yet the only other time that someone recounts how someone died, it was Ennis telling of his parents' death, and that too sounded pretty far-fetched (one curve in 43 miles and they miss it?) and he too sounds pretty detached when he talks about it, yet we are meant to believe that story.

Re: An old man's rambling thoughts   
  by ClancyPantsNasty   (Tue Apr 10 2007 07:44:16 )
   
   
Hi NewHorizons37 --

"Yet the only other time that someone recounts how someone died, it was Ennis telling of his parents' death, and that too sounded pretty far-fetched (one curve in 43 miles and they miss it?) and he too sounds pretty detached when he talks about it, yet we are meant to believe that story."

Exactly. I brought it up many times in threads where people think Lureen is lying because of her delivery, and no one has ever responded about Ennis' delivery. The two scenes are just too similar to not have some subtextual tie between them.


Re: An old man's rambling thoughts   
  by Dancing_Bear   (Tue Apr 10 2007 12:05:16 )   


Hi Spicey,

Thank you! That helped! Isn't this a great thread?


Re: An old man's rambling thoughts   
  by latjoreme   (Tue Apr 10 2007 12:21:53 )   

   
Do you have your 'Messages Per Page' in your profile set to 50? That takes out a lot of the page breaks in a thread, although once the thread reaches that length, you'll get the page break anyway. But if you set it to 50, that helps a lot when the thread is still relatively short.

Spicey, that's a good idea. I actually prefer the separate page system, because if a thread is long but you've already read most of it, you can save several valuable seconds  loading it. And a few of these threads have gotten so long they never did load on my computer. But these pages are a little TOO short.

Not to always tout BetterMost, but they have a great feature there where you can click on a little sign that says "new" and it takes you right to whatever point you left off the last time you read a thread.

Re: An old man's rambling thoughts   
  by Dancing_Bear   (Sun Apr 8 2007 10:06:40 )   

   
I knew it.... you were working on your BBM dissertation while you were on sabbatical, weren't you? Great stuff, lots to chew over....



Re: An old man's rambling thoughts   
  by rtallchief   (Mon Apr 9 2007 21:48:24 )   

   
As someone who doesn't ever log, though reads, I have to apologize. Can count on one hand the times have felt the need to respond or comment it just isn't me. You, Clancy, are one of the most articulate, fantastic, literate, and knowledgable people I've ever come upon. please don't remove yourself from our small universe. You're much needed right now.

"Honey, your lack of self esteem is just good common sense".
Re: An old man's rambling thoughts   
  by littlewing1957   (Tue Apr 10 2007 09:11:04 )   

   
<< You, Clancy, are one of the most articulate, fantastic, literate, and knowledgable people I've ever come upon. please don't remove yourself from our small universe. You're much needed right now. >>

I totally agree with this! Thanks for posting!


bump: An old man's rambling thoughts   
  by BruteSmasher   13 hours ago (Sun Apr 22 2007 23:32:18 )
   
bump


(Many heartfelt thanks for nightly hours of bumping BruteSmasher/TrollHammer/Ogmallet/et al have put in on TOB quietly keeping threads like this alive!  -- TOoP/Bruce)
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Re: An Old Man's Rambling Thoughts -- by ClancyPantsNasty
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2014, 08:07:33 pm »
Word of the day seems to be "pavement". And here's what ole Clancypants has to say about it:

"One of the first astounding things I learned, shortly after I came onto this board, was how much info was packed into that tiny little scene. This is what suddenly opened my mind to the film's enormous complexity (I think of it as my Helen Keller at the water pump moment). Up until then, I thought the scene's purpose was just to establish how boring Ennis' life had become, how bleak his potential future (represented by Timmy) might be, how unappealing a coworker Timmy was, compared to Jack. Then Casey Cornelius pointed out that Timmy had talked about breaking his back, an allusion to Brokeback (it's probably not accidental, either, that Timmy refers to his heterosexual marriage), and we discussed the idea that Ennis was thinking of Jack as he gazed off into the distance, at a green field which represents the natural world, i.e. Jack and Ennis' relationship. And I think at some point we also discussed the idea that Ennis is paving over this natural world -- symbolically suduing it with the substance of society.

Then later Clancy drew the connection between the idea of pavement and the point later in the movie when Ennis tells Jack about going "out on the pavement" and having people look at him as if they know he's gay. So this scene could also be an early example of Ennis' paranoia about their relationship."
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Re: An Old Man's Rambling Thoughts -- by ClancyPantsNasty
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2014, 12:38:43 am »
Word of the day seems to be "pavement". And here's what ole Clancypants has to say about it:


When you said "pavement", the scene that came to my mind was the 'people out on the pavement' scene, not the one of Ennis doing the paving.
I try to remember the approx. times both scenes appear in the movie. This is another example of bookends, and I think it also fits the inkblot scheme, where scenes are roughly the same time-span apart from the middle of the movie. Gonna drudge up the inkblot thread and add this scene, if it's not already there.

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Re: An Old Man's Rambling Thoughts -- by ClancyPantsNasty
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2014, 09:50:11 pm »

When you said "pavement", the scene that came to my mind was the 'people out on the pavement' scene, not the one of Ennis doing the paving.
I try to remember the approx. times both scenes appear in the movie. This is another example of bookends, and I think it also fits the inkblot scheme, where scenes are roughly the same time-span apart from the middle of the movie. Gonna drudge up the inkblot thread and add this scene, if it's not already there.

Would love to see that again, friend!
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Re: An Old Man's Rambling Thoughts -- by ClancyPantsNasty
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2014, 05:10:29 pm »
Someone once brought it up before (Was it in Casey Cornelius's "Is Brokeback a Palindrome?" thread?) that "Talkative Timmy" has Ennis's ear in a parallel construction to how "Loquacious Lashawn" has Jack's.
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Re: An Old Man's Rambling Thoughts -- by ClancyPantsNasty
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2014, 06:21:00 pm »
Someone once brought it up before (Was it in Casey Cornelius's "Is Brokeback a Palindrome?" thread?) that "Talkative Timmy" has Ennis's ear in a parallel construction to how "Loquacious Lashawn" has Jack's.

Oh, hadn't thought of that.


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Re: An Old Man's Rambling Thoughts -- by ClancyPantsNasty
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2014, 08:51:35 am »
Word of the day seems to be "pavement". And here's what ole Clancypants has to say about it:

"One of the first astounding things I learned, shortly after I came onto this board, was how much info was packed into that tiny little scene. This is what suddenly opened my mind to the film's enormous complexity (I think of it as my Helen Keller at the water pump moment). Up until then, I thought the scene's purpose was just to establish how boring Ennis' life had become, how bleak his potential future (represented by Timmy) might be, how unappealing a coworker Timmy was, compared to Jack. Then Casey Cornelius pointed out that Timmy had talked about breaking his back, an allusion to Brokeback (it's probably not accidental, either, that Timmy refers to his heterosexual marriage), and we discussed the idea that Ennis was thinking of Jack as he gazed off into the distance, at a green field which represents the natural world, i.e. Jack and Ennis' relationship. And I think at some point we also discussed the idea that Ennis is paving over this natural world -- symbolically suduing it with the substance of society.

Then later Clancy drew the connection between the idea of pavement and the point later in the movie when Ennis tells Jack about going "out on the pavement" and having people look at him as if they know he's gay. So this scene could also be an early example of Ennis' paranoia about their relationship."

Actually, I wrote the passage above. Bruce's compilation includes ClancyPants' comment plus responses from others. That one is mine (I was latjoreme then).

Quote
Re: An old man's rambling thoughts   
  by latjoreme   (Mon Apr 9 2007 16:18:47 )   

   
Ohh, good one, Gary and retropian. Ennis is literally on the road he has chosen to take in life and it looks bleak and he looks miserable. Wow.

One of the first astounding things I learned, shortly after I came onto this board, was how much info was packed into that tiny little scene. This is what suddenly opened my mind to the film's enormous complexity (I think of it as my Helen Keller at the water pump moment). Up until then, I thought the scene's purpose was just to establish how boring Ennis' life had become, how bleak his potential future (represented by Timmy) might be, how unappealing a coworker Timmy was, compared to Jack. Then Casey Cornelius pointed out that Timmy had talked about breaking his back, an allusion to Brokeback (it's probably not accidental, either, that Timmy refers to his heterosexual marriage), and we discussed the idea that Ennis was thinking of Jack as he gazed off into the distance, at a green field which represents the natural world, i.e. Jack and Ennis' relationship. And I think at some point we also discussed the idea that Ennis is paving over this natural world -- symbolically suduing it with the substance of society.

Then later Clancy drew the connection between the idea of pavement and the point later in the movie when Ennis tells Jack about going "out on the pavement" and having people look at him as if they know he's gay. So this scene could also be an early example of Ennis' paranoia about their relationship.


Casey's analysis of the pavement scene was my Helen Keller at the water pump moment. (I don't think Casey and Clancy knew each other, though they would have been a dynamic duo!)

Someone once brought it up before (Was it in Casey Cornelius's "Is Brokeback a Palindrome?" thread?) that "Talkative Timmy" has Ennis's ear in a parallel construction to how "Loquacious Lashawn" has Jack's.

Oh, cool! I missed that part of the palindrome first time around. Eight years in, my Helen Keller at the water pump moments continue!



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A memory of the movie that pops up
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2021, 07:27:51 pm »
I was in line to pick up my son at the airport today and he said over the phone that they were keeping the plane on the tarmac for a bit. I wondered why he said "tarmac" instead of "pavement" and, just hearing that word in my mind brought up the whole scene where Ennis wonders aloud to Jack what people out on the pavement think. Then, it flashed to the Timmy scene where Ennis is daydreaming while Timmy paves and complains about breaking his back. I had to go back to this thread and resurrect it. Here is a quote by serious aka latjoreme ::)

"One of the first astounding things I learned, shortly after I came onto this board, was how much info was packed into that tiny little scene. This is what suddenly opened my mind to the film's enormous complexity (I think of it as my Helen Keller at the water pump moment). Up until then, I thought the scene's purpose was just to establish how boring Ennis' life had become, how bleak his potential future (represented by Timmy) might be, how unappealing a coworker Timmy was, compared to Jack. Then Casey Cornelius pointed out that Timmy had talked about breaking his back, an allusion to Brokeback (it's probably not accidental, either, that Timmy refers to his heterosexual marriage), and we discussed the idea that Ennis was thinking of Jack as he gazed off into the distance, at a green field which represents the natural world, i.e. Jack and Ennis' relationship. And I think at some point we also discussed the idea that Ennis is paving over this natural world -- symbolically subduing it with the substance of society.

Then later Clancy drew the connection between the idea of pavement and the point later in the movie when Ennis tells Jack about going "out on the pavement" and having people look at him as if they know he's gay. So this scene could also be an early example of Ennis' paranoia about their relationship."
Rooting for you!

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Re: An Old Man's Rambling Thoughts -- by ClancyPantsNasty
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2021, 09:05:14 pm »
I think all of our group discussions were fascinating and enlightening. I learned so much about analyzing the film -- and cinematography/literature in general from Casey Cornelius and Clancy/ruthlesslyunsentimental. Both were amazing -- not only pointing out things I wouldn't have noticed but supporting their theses with so much evidence you knew they were right.

Lee, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe I heard of the coffee pot significance from you. In fact, the pot and coffee pot and the fan. You, too, have been a major influencer at BetterMost.

The best gift Clancy/ruthless ever left, IMO, is what seems to me like a solid explanation of why Lureen's understanding of Jack's death is right. Highly questionable for sure, but I believe it.

Another amazing one, from Clancy I think, is that Old Man Twist isn't actually as homophobic as one might assume.

And I believe Casey pointed out the mind-blowing inkblot structure?






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Re: An Old Man's Rambling Thoughts -- by ClancyPantsNasty
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2022, 08:52:54 pm »
Lee, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe I heard of the coffee pot significance from you. In fact, the pot and coffee pot and the fan. You, too, have been a major influencer at BetterMost.
I believe that was a collaboration between browneyes and me and maybe some others.
The best gift Clancy/ruthless ever left, IMO, is what seems to me like a solid explanation of why Lureen's understanding of Jack's death is right. Highly questionable for sure, but I believe it.
I don't remember that one.
Another amazing one, from Clancy I think, is that Old Man Twist isn't actually as homophobic as one might assume.
Yes I remember that. I recall he thought OMT was gay himself.
And I believe Casey pointed out the mind-blowing inkblot structure?
Yes, he sure did. Or maybe he called it bookending?
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