Author Topic: what's the point of the job switch?  (Read 49528 times)

Offline serious crayons

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what's the point of the job switch?
« on: April 28, 2006, 01:35:21 am »
Here's one I've always wondered about but never thought to ask. What's the point of having Ennis start out minding the campsite while Jack minds the sheep, and then having them switch? I mean, I know what the characters' motivations are -- Jack hates the commute and the cat-piss tent; Ennis doesn't mind those things and wants to do something nice for Jack.

And in dramatic terms, there's an opportunity after they've switched to highlight the contrast between Jack and Alma -- they both cook and wash Ennis' shirts by hand, but Jack does it outdoors in nature and Alma does it indoors in artificial, civilized settings. But that point could as easily have been made if they had started out in those jobs, right?

So is there some other reason, in a storytelling/dramatic/symbolic sense, for having them go through all that? Is it just something to fill up the time during that first month, something for Jack to complain and rebel against and Ennis to accept stoically, ala the beans? Or does changing their sleeping locations set the stage for their ultimate change in sleeping arrangements?

Or what?


Offline Ellemeno

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2006, 01:47:12 am »
No answer from me - 'cept I'm glad you and your good questions are here, Katherine!

Offline RouxB

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2006, 01:50:18 am »
Hmmm, those all sound like pretty good reasons to me...love story development.

 O0


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Offline Kea

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2006, 02:19:19 am »
Hi

I think that is a great question....here is what I think

I thought it set the stage for the relationship to come......the time of Jack waiting in the dark up with the sheep , smoking and looking out for the spark in the dark that was Ennis..

very symbolic for me....the waiting ...the searching ..the longing....the hope.....the darkeness  the uncertainty.

Remember Jacks words..." we should both be in this camp ".......

but in a way they never could be in the same "camp" their lives , Ennis fears and their roles kept them in separate "camps"....

Jack spent the rest of his life waiting.....it started up on that mountain.....it showed the contrast in what he had with what he wanted...

I think it was necessary for them to go through that stage ...a awakening to need of sorts...

Jack prehaps awakened to his need to be with Ennis....

Ennis his need to do something for Jack...

I feel its almost a way to show how the two worlds could not come together without consequences...first time they spend the night together...a sheep gets killed...another time the sheep get mixed up....

a hint that their  relationship would have  a price to pay....always a price....

and even after the switch.....there were issues......a probable suggestion ...that it was not the role ..or the time or the place that mattered ...but their own internal struggles or beliefs that could potentially harm their love..

the fact that Ennis would settle for a  "cat piss smelling tent " .....so suggestive of Ennis being willing to settle  for less...while Jack always wanting to have it better ..sweeter........intresting to think about.

so the job switch for me...really speak volumes..


does this make sense to anyone else?

Kea
« Last Edit: April 28, 2006, 02:23:25 am by Kea »
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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2006, 02:24:09 am »
Maybe it's just a logical descision. Aguirre knew Jack from the summer before, but he didn't know Ennis.
Aguirre may have been angry at Jack for the high loss of sheep the first summer, but he wasn't too mad about it to hire Jack again. So Jack must have done the job well enough for Aguirre to hire him again.
All Aguirre cares for are the sheep (=his money). And from his POV the sheep herder job is more important than the camp tender job. It's consequential to let the man he already knows (and knows he can rely on) do the more important job.
It would have been illogical if Annie had Aguirre decide the other way round.




Offline Ray

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2006, 03:36:55 am »
I agree Kea.  I think the motivation for Jack was to be in the same camp/tent/mood together, but Ennis missed the point and does Jack a 'favour' by offering to switch.  Jack wants togetherness whereas Ennis feels compelled to make Jack happy however he can, even at this early stage of their development.  The soup is another example.  Ennis states he doesn't eat soup at the start, and then asks for it to please Jack. Jack is the 'cuddler', where as Ennis sees himself as the 'provider & protector'.  Thus the switch of shirts at the end of the film.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2006, 03:38:55 am by Ray »
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2006, 08:33:33 am »
I go with the symbolism of Jack being the 'nester' preparing a place for he and Ennis - like Alma and probably like Cassie - but Ennis always just out of reach, always leaving, always going off into the wilds, so to speaik.

Offline henrypie

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2006, 10:15:53 am »
Yeah dela,
I feel Ennis pulling like the wild animal to go out, be alone.  And of course, in the event that he's acting on some inchoate, subconscious urge to escape (himself), well, it ain't working.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2006, 10:24:19 am »
It clearly makes sense that initially Jack is the sheep tender because he's the one with experience at the job. The summer of 1963 was his second on the job, whereas it was Ennis's first, and tending the sheep is more important than "housekeeping" in the camp.

I've never really "got" any deeper, symbolic meaning for the switch. Maybe Ennis got tired of hearing Jack whining about it all the time.  :)

One thing has disturbed me: When I realized that after they made the job switch, when they did begin to have sex, Jack, the "receptive" partner, as camp tender, was now in the "traditional female role" of "housekeeper," whereas Ennis, the "active" partner, was in the "traditional male role" of "going out to work." Ouch. Say it ain't so, Annie Proulx!
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2006, 12:24:03 pm »
Yay, you guys! I think that through our collective brilliance, we have hit upon some solutions to the mystery. Kea's idea that it symbolizes their relationship and the conflict to come especially makes sense to me.

They get assigned the jobs they do because it's practical; Jack has done it before. But the story could as easily have made Ennis the one with experience and the sensible choice as sheep herder. BUT NO -- Jack is the more experienced of the two. It's Ennis' first time. Hmm ...

At first, when they're apart, we see them gazing at each other from afar (Jack looking down at Ennis at night, Ennis looking up at Jack during the day). As Kea suggests, this represents the way they remain separated, yet thinking about and longing for each other, throughout their lives.

Remember Jacks words..." we should both be in this camp ".......

but in a way they never could be in the same "camp" their lives , Ennis fears and their roles kept them in separate "camps"....

Jack spent the rest of his life waiting.....it started up on that mountain.....it showed the contrast in what he had with what he wanted...

As Kea and Ray point out, what Jack really wants is for BOTH of them to sleep at the campsite, so they can be together. (Not to get into a whole nother debate about when Jack decides to make his move, but if you ask me he's thinking about it right then.) Jack doesn't want to let rules keep them apart. His "we should both be in this camp" is like "you know, it could be like this always ..."

Ennis, stickler for rules, doesn't even consider this option. He wants to do something nice for Jack, but also he doesn't mind being uncomfortable (sticking with Alma, giving up happiness) in order to follow instructions. Jack's not expecting Ennis to suggest this, he looks kind of startled; he's hoping Ennis will agree that they should both stay in camp. But now that Ennis HAS offered, what can Jack do but go along with it? But the switch means they'll be apart from each other, thanks to Ennis.

Meanwhile, aside from your objections, Jeff, I think putting Jack in the role of housekeeper is a way symbolically to set up the tension and conflict between Jack and Alma. The two shirt-washing scenes, as others have noted, underscore this.

When Alma is washing the shirt, Ennis comes in to the kitchen and gives her a perfunctory kiss. When Jack is washing the shirt, he's alone and looks vulnerable, and Ennis is far away. And as others have observed on other threads, that scene, occuring as it does immediately after Ennis discovers the slaughtered lamb, foreshadows Jack's fate. And Ennis, who volunteered to sleep with the sheep in the first place not only to be nice to Jack but because he believed the sheep needed protecting (following rules for the sake of avoiding death), was in fact unable to protect them (Jack).

Does this scenario sound plausible?

Meanwhile, all this got me wondering, what's up with the canopener? Does that mean anything? Jack is confident he can use a canopener -- in other words, thinks he can "open up" Ennis. But turns out he actually can't. Is that too much of a stretch?








Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2006, 01:22:23 pm »
Very nice synthesis, Katherine!

I'm not sure I personally I would use the word "objection" to what I said about the stereotypical roles, but it did make me feel very unhappy when I noticed it, because, especially in Jack's case, it is stereotypical (like the homophobic "which one's the wife" question), like I expected better of Annie Proulx.

You know, I never really gave any thought to the can opener, but reading your last post, it occurred to me that the can opener is one more thing that Jack claims to be good at and he really isn't, not on the basis of the only time we see him using the can opener!
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2006, 02:23:56 pm »
Lots of good points about the switch.

One other thing: after they switch roles, Ennis has to stay in camp in order for anything to happen. He doesn't consciously decide to stay in camp; it just isn't in his nature. But he lingers in camp, longer and longer, until finally he stays so long drinking that he can't make it back. I know there's been discussion of whether Jack hoped (or even intended) that Ennis's inhibitions would wear down after drinking, but I don't think that's what happened. I think that Ennis yearned toward Jack, and that he stayed drinking as an unconscious excuse to stay close to Jack.

I think their first time works better with Ennis staying in camp... if Jack had both chosen to stay in camp and then made the first move, the entire affair would seem a bit more one-sided. As it is, I felt (at least) that the attraction was clearly mutual, even if Jack was the one who initiated things.

(And I think that Jack's experience on the mountain the previous summer is symbolic of him either having previous same-sex experiences, or at least knowing where his attractions tended to fall.)

Interesting to think of Jack as an emotional can opener. I kind of like that. (Though he's better at getting Ennis to open up than he is with the can of beans!)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2006, 02:35:26 pm »
I think that Ennis yearned toward Jack, and that he stayed drinking as an unconscious excuse to stay close to Jack.

I think their first time works better with Ennis staying in camp... if Jack had both chosen to stay in camp and then made the first move, the entire affair would seem a bit more one-sided.

Great points, Nakymaton!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2006, 03:06:38 pm »
As far as Ennis's lingering in camp goes, this is an area where I think perhaps the original story "does it better," maybe because this is something easier to "tell" than to show without a lot of boring expository dialogue.

I'm thinking of the story's famous "paw the white out of the moon" line. Regardless of sexual attraction, conscious or otherwise, I think as the days pass Ennis is simply having more fun in Jack's company than the poor kid probably ever had in his life, so it gets more and more difficult as time passes for him to go back to the sheep.

Mind you, I'm not saying the sexual attraction isn't a factor or isn't growing as the time passes, just that I think there is an additional factor here, Ennis's plain human loneliness.

For that matter, I think the simple fun he has in Jack's company is a factor in the growing sexual attraction. People who are fun to be with are more sexually attractive than people who aren't fun to be with--at least they are for me, personally.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2006, 03:31:03 pm by Jeff Wrangler »
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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2006, 03:25:26 pm »
A couple of thoughts on this subject:

Did the boys ever worry that Aguirre would be displeased by the switch? They certainly don't seem to ever be concerned about this possibility. Yet Aguirre specifically assigned Ennis to be camp tender, and Jack herder. And Aguirre obviously learns about the switch before he orders the boys off the mountain, as the Basque too would have observed Jack coming for the food pickup in Ennis's stead.

Secondly, as original camp tender, Ennis would have been responsible not only for meals, but for clothes washing as well (though we never see him engaged in this latter activity). This means that he would have been cleaning Jack's blue shirt at various points that summer, and this provides another "bookend" to the film's concluding image, of Ennis lovingly tending Jack's shirt for the remainder of his life.

Scott
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 07:05:38 pm by moremojo »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2006, 03:34:30 pm »
I'm not sure I personally I would use the word "objection" to what I said about the stereotypical roles, but it did make me feel very unhappy when I noticed it, because, especially in Jack's case, it is stereotypical (like the homophobic "which one's the wife" question), like I expected better of Annie Proulx.

I understand what you're saying, Jeff, and it's unfortunate. But maybe the problem, rather than the product of homophobic stereotyping, is an unavoidable result of storytelling requirements. Jack needs to be housekeeper in order to set up the Jack/Alma conflict. And it's hard to imagine the first tent scene going differently. Though I guess I've always assumed things DID go differently as their relationship progressed. Granted, this isn't my area of expertise. Would there be another way around this problem?

Also, I don't have the story in front of me, so I could easily be wrong, but doesn't Annie leave the "receptive" and "active" designations more ambiguous? I just remember her reference to a furtive unbuckling of belts or something like that.

And as for this

Regardless of sexual attraction, conscious or otherwise, I think as the days pass Ennis is simply having more fun in Jack's company than the poor kid probably ever had in his life, so it gets more and more difficult as time passes for him to go back to the sheep.

Mind you, I'm not saying the sexual attraction isn't a factor or isn't growing as the time passes, just that I think there is additional factor here, Ennis's plain human loneliness.

For that matter, I think the simple fun he has in Jack's company is a factor in the growing sexual attraction. People who are fun to be with are more sexually attractive than people who aren't fun to be with--at least they are for me, personally.

You are so right about the importance of that, although I would argue that the movie establishes it fairly well -- particularly in the "wha?" scene and the goofy rodeo imitation scene, where it seems like Ennis is smiling for the first time in years. Come to think of it, though, I can imagine ways to dramatize "paw the white out of the moon" that would have been nice (more smiling! always welcome). But in any case, yes, Ennis' loneliness is such a sad and touching thing. It's like what we were talking about the other day, regarding the most important loss to Ennis when Jack died: his best and only friend.

moremojo

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Re: Perhaps intentional
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2006, 03:42:24 pm »

One thing has disturbed me: When I realized that after they made the job switch, when they did begin to have sex, Jack, the "receptive" partner, as camp tender, was now in the "traditional female role" of "housekeeper," whereas Ennis, the "active" partner, was in the "traditional male role" of "going out to work." Ouch. Say it ain't so, Annie Proulx!
Hi, Jeff Wrangler,

I think Proulx and the filmmakers might have been intentionally going along this line of thinking, however distasteful it is for so many contemporary lesbigay readers and viewers. I'm not trying to say that there is any homophobia on the artists' part, but I do think that Jack harbors qualities that our culture traditionally deems 'feminine' (i.e., he is nurturing, sensitive, tender, and yielding), and Ennis may have been in part responding to some of these characteristics. Ennis is definitely homophobic, and in his eyes, if he is going to relate intimately to Jack, he may think he's darn well going to be the 'man' in the situation, implicitly placing Jack in the 'woman's' position. I'm not saying this is the way it actually is or should be, but it would be consistent with the mindset of the time and place in which the boys exist.

I'm hypothesizing of course, but I find this angle a useful way to approach Jack and Ennis's specific relationship, at least at its beginning. I disagree with the emphatic argument many make that Jack is wholly masculine in his persona--I see him as an integrated blend of the masculine and the feminine, and in this, he is actually more whole and healthier than Ennis.

Scott
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 07:06:20 pm by moremojo »

Offline delalluvia

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2006, 07:52:06 pm »
Quote
Ennis may have been in part responding to some of these characteristics. Ennis is definitely homophobic, and in his eyes, if he is going to relate intimately to Jack, he may think he's darn well going to be the 'man' in the situation, implicitly placing Jack in the 'woman's' position. I'm not saying this is the way it actually is or should be, but it would be consistent with the mindset of the time and place in which the boys exist.

Well said more.

And you guys...I said it once, I'll say it agian.  Jack was EXCELLENT with a can opener!  The can opened right up.  It's just he had problems handling the contents.  Which I guess still ties into Jack getting Ennis to open up if you want to look at it that way.

Heh, either way, opening up a can or opening up Ennis, he gets splattered with the results.  O0

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2006, 08:02:27 pm »

Heh, either way, opening up a can or opening up Ennis, he gets splattered with the results.  O0
A wonderful thought for my evening! Thanks! :laugh:

Offline starboardlight

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2006, 08:17:49 pm »
Heh, either way, opening up a can or opening up Ennis, he gets splattered with the results.  O0

lol. hrm my mind is going the wrong direction, or the right direction, depending on your mood.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2006, 08:40:57 pm »
Heh, either way, opening up a can or opening up Ennis, he gets splattered with the results.  O0

lol. hrm my mind is going the wrong direction, or the right direction, depending on your mood.

It's SO right!  8)

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2006, 11:15:29 pm »
I'm not sure I personally I would use the word "objection" to what I said about the stereotypical roles, but it did make me feel very unhappy when I noticed it, because, especially in Jack's case, it is stereotypical (like the homophobic "which one's the wife" question), like I expected better of Annie Proulx.

I understand what you're saying, Jeff, and it's unfortunate. But maybe the problem, rather than the product of homophobic stereotyping, is an unavoidable result of storytelling requirements. Jack needs to be housekeeper in order to set up the Jack/Alma conflict. And it's hard to imagine the first tent scene going differently. Though I guess I've always assumed things DID go differently as their relationship progressed. Granted, this isn't my area of expertise. Would there be another way around this problem?

Also, I don't have the story in front of me, so I could easily be wrong, but doesn't Annie leave the "receptive" and "active" designations more ambiguous? I just remember her reference to a furtive unbuckling of belts or something like that.

Katherine,

You could be right about setting up "the Jack/Alma conflict," if that's what Annie Proulx intended. I have to admit I have not given that aspect much thought because, to be honest, it doesn't particularly interest me. My gut reaction is to feel that a comparison or conflict of Jack and Alma as housekeepers for Ennis is a bit of a stretch, but I can accept that I could be wrong there, or that perhaps that conflict comes from Ang Lee rather than from Annie Proulx.

As for the "receptive" and "active" sex roles, my impression from the story has always been that, no, they don't change their roles in 20 years. Ennis is the "top" and Jack is the "bottom." In the story the motel scene is the real center, and that's where Jack makes the remark that I now use as a tag line, that all that time Ennis spends on horseback is what makes it so good. I've always, since 1997, taken that to mean that Ennis has well-developed saddle muscles that enable him to throw a good fuck.

This is also where the narrative tells us that Jack lies to Ennis about his sexual activity with other guys: "'Shit no,' said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own." In other words, he's been getting fucked, not masturbating. (Ennis, in contrast, says he has no interest in other guys but "wrang it out a hunderd times" thinking of Jack.)

So, if you'll pardon the bluntness, in the story we've got Ennis as a good fucker, and Jack who likes to get fucked, and nothing after the story motel scene ever registered with me that any of that changed throughout their relationship. That would also, I think, support the idea that they never really advanced from their days on Brokeback Mountain.

And this, I'm afraid, will have to be my last word till after the Brokie Brunch!
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2006, 11:34:03 pm »
Quote
I've always, since 1997, taken that to mean that Ennis has well-developed saddle muscles that enable him to throw a good fuck.

This is also where the narrative tells us that Jack lies to Ennis about his sexual activity with other guys: "'Shit no,' said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own."

Do we know for sure that's what it means though?

We all have discussed this same thing on other threads I recall, but I don't think we ever got a definitive answer.  As as woman, a man can ask me to 'ride him' which obviously means peg A in slot B.  But a Civil War soldier spoke of going to a whorehouse and 'riding a Dutch gal', meaning of course the same thing, but HE was doing the 'riding'.  So it seems the expression can be used either way.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2006, 12:15:06 am »
You could be right about setting up "the Jack/Alma conflict," if that's what Annie Proulx intended. I have to admit I have not given that aspect much thought because, to be honest, it doesn't particularly interest me. My gut reaction is to feel that a comparison or conflict of Jack and Alma as housekeepers for Ennis is a bit of a stretch, but I can accept that I could be wrong there, or that perhaps that conflict comes from Ang Lee rather than from Annie Proulx.

As for the "receptive" and "active" sex roles, my impression from the story has always been that, no, they don't change their roles in 20 years. Ennis is the "top" and Jack is the "bottom." In the story the motel scene is the real center, and that's where Jack makes the remark that I now use as a tag line, that all that time Ennis spends on horseback is what makes it so good. I've always, since 1997, taken that to mean that Ennis has well-developed saddle muscles that enable him to throw a good fuck.

This is also where the narrative tells us that Jack lies to Ennis about his sexual activity with other guys: "'Shit no,' said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own." In other words, he's been getting fucked, not masturbating. (Ennis, in contrast, says he has no interest in other guys but "wrang it out a hunderd times" thinking of Jack.)

So, if you'll pardon the bluntness, in the story we've got Ennis as a good fucker, and Jack who likes to get fucked, and nothing after the story motel scene ever registered with me that any of that changed throughout their relationship. That would also, I think, support the idea that they never really advanced from their days on Brokeback Mountain.

Well, thanks for explaining that, Jeff. I don't mind bluntness. As I said, this is an area where my knowledge and sensitivities are obviously limited, so I'll defer to yours. Frankly, one of the things I like about this board is that it offers the chance to learn more about that stuff.

So the only replies I have are:

-- When I referred to the Jack/Alma conflict I was using shorthand for an idea about a metaphor that is considerably more complex than that, having to do with a tension between Jack and Alma over the years. I don't want to oversimplify it any again or shortchange the thought that others put into analyzing it, so I'll just point out the thread where it was discussed. You still may not be interested, but if so it's here:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=698.0

(But in case you don't make it there, at least notice the parallel scenes of Jack doing laundry and Alma doing laundry. It's not really just about housekeeping, I don't think.)

-- In any case, the Jack/Alma thing is in the movie, not the story. Personally, I don't like analyzing the movie on the basis of the story (or, I suppose, vise versa). They're just too different. And now I realize that in your earlier posts you referred specifically to Annie Proulx and the story, so I guess that's what we're talking about. In which case, you're undoubtedly right. I like to think I'm pretty knowledgable about the movie by now, but I don't feel at all that way about the story.

(To be absolutely honest, though I have always admired the writing in the short story I was nowhere near as floored when I read that as I was when I later saw the movie. One of the reasons for that, I think, is that the characters simply aren't as interesting. To me, anyway. Sorry, everybody.)

Hope you all have/had fun at the brunch!



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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2006, 12:26:14 am »
I had never really thought too in-depth about the job switch but I think Kea's post on the matter is excellent.

I don't think you need to read too much into the stereotype housewife thing. Although we see Jack as the receiver in sex and doing laundry (if you will), Jack also protects Ennis in a very note-worthy way. He doesn't tell Ennis about Aguirre's knowledge of their relationship, he keeps Ennis' shirt wrapped inside his own, he tries to take care of Ennis after Ennis hits his head on the rocks, etc. (Yes, a woman could easily do those things but when are women portrayed as protective of their men in such a way?) I don't think that the stereotyping is intentional at all; I think there are subtle allusions to competition between Jack and Alma is all.

I imagined Jack and Ennis switched things up from time to time. I mean, after 20 years, doing it the same way every time? I think the giving-and-receiving was mutual. But we can never be sure (unfortunately)...
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2006, 01:09:27 pm »
First of all, thanks, dela, for your opinion on Jack and the can opener. I agree! I've gone on and on about this in the IMDB thread "Jack was maligned unfairly."

But on to the subject at hand. I think the job switch can be viewed on several different levels. Symbolically, Aguirre (society) assigns Jack and Ennis their roles but when they are released on BBM, they let nature take its course and assume the roles that feel best to them. They are far removed from society and its judgements.

Secondly, character development. Jack is the sociable one, the one who makes a home/family, while Ennis is accustomed to being alone and enjoys riding Cigar Butt, a good night horse, on commutes to/from the sheep. So, their switch of roles suits them.

Jack takes on the housekeeping, but Lee portrays Ennis doing lots of housekeeping too. And when he shows Jack housekeeping, Jack is doing things in such an unusual way that it doesn't seem stereotyped. For example, back to the can opener scene. Jack is opening the can while lying down, balancing the can on his stomach! No wonder he gets splattered with the contents! Moremoje also pointed out one time about how Ennis and Jack were both hacking up a tree--Ennis was using a saw, while Jack was hacking away with an ax.

A third level is what I will call the mythical level where Jack and Ennis are two spirits involved in an ever-changing interplay of shifting balances which is what love is and how it evolves. There are seemingly contradictory elements which become complementary over time.

I feel like there's more to this and I've just scratched the surface, but thank you for bringing this up.
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Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2006, 02:56:29 pm »
Front-Ranger makes a good point here: we see them both doing 'housework.' That should be taken into account.
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Offline cmr107

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2006, 04:41:51 pm »
Front-Ranger makes a good point here: we see them both doing 'housework.' That should be taken into account.

Yeah, and isn't the only time we ever see Jack doing anything having to do with food preparation (in the first summer) the thing with the can opener? We see Ennis cooking and cleaning up a lot, but only the one time for Jack. (Sorry if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I've seen it.)

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2006, 05:02:00 pm »
Well there is the scene where Jack is peeling potatoes. You may have missed that Courtney because Ennis was stripping in the background  :D. But I was very impressed with Jack's skills with a paring knife.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2006, 03:05:50 am »
Quote
I've always, since 1997, taken that to mean that Ennis has well-developed saddle muscles that enable him to throw a good fuck.

This is also where the narrative tells us that Jack lies to Ennis about his sexual activity with other guys: "'Shit no,' said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own."

Do we know for sure that's what it means though?

We all have discussed this same thing on other threads I recall, but I don't think we ever got a definitive answer.  As as woman, a man can ask me to 'ride him' which obviously means peg A in slot B.  But a Civil War soldier spoke of going to a whorehouse and 'riding a Dutch gal', meaning of course the same thing, but HE was doing the 'riding'.  So it seems the expression can be used either way.

Based on the text, we can be reasonably certain.

First time up, Ennis fucks Jack. That's clear from Annie Proulx's description of their first sexual encounter.

I won't dispute that the description could be used either way, but do bear in mind we're not talking about heterosexual sex here. Jack "rides" bulls. The implication here--to a gay man reading it--is that Jack's the one getting fucked, and there is nothing in Annie Proulx's text to indicate this changes. The analogy is Jack sitting down on a bull to ride it compared to Jack "sitting down" on Ennis's cock. Possibly the position used might change, but the understanding of this gay man--and of all the other gay men in my social circle--is that the one who is getting fucked is the one who is getting a cock inserted in his ass, regardless of whether he is being taken from behind--as in the first tent scene--or whether he might be straddling his partner and sitting down on his partner's erection.

Some gay men do switch roles. Every indication that we have of Ennis's character, in particular in the movie where internalized homophobia is such an important part of Ennis's make-up, suggests that he is not one of those gay men who switch roles. For Ennis, especially "Movie Ennis," to take Jack's cock up his own ass would have made him "queer." It just didn't happen.

Any other gay men care to "ride" this one?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2006, 01:42:05 pm by Jeff Wrangler »
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Offline Ray

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2006, 03:35:32 am »
You're scaring me here guys!
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2006, 01:44:42 pm »
You're scaring me here guys!

Easy does it, Ray! Nothing to be scared of here--unless you want to be scared!

 ;)
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2006, 01:50:04 pm »
You're scaring me here guys!

Easy does it, Ray! Nothing to be scared of here--unless you want to be scared!

 ;)

Oh, he just wants to be scared!  ;D

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2006, 04:35:30 pm »
You're scaring me here guys!

Easy does it, Ray! Nothing to be scared of here--unless you want to be scared!

 ;)

Oh, he just wants to be scared!  ;D

Maybe I should get my whips and chains? Oh, Ray? Ray? ...  ;D
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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2006, 08:50:18 am »
I have no authority to disagree with a gay man on this matter but that has never stopped me before (and the whips and chains didn't deter me either!) But as an artistic point, I believe the two men exchanged positions at least some of the time. I will grant you that the story is ambiguous; you can interpret the horseback quote several ways. But in the movie, we see that in the second tent scene, that Ennis tugged or pulled Jack over on top of him and while the scene ends there, our imagination can fill in the rest. Finally, the two shirts, Jeff. In Jack's closet, Jack's shirt is on top while in Ennis' closet, Ennis shirt is on top. What more proof do you need?  ;)
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2006, 09:15:03 am »
I have no authority to disagree with a gay man on this matter but that has never stopped me before (and the whips and chains didn't deter me either!) But as an artistic point, I believe the two men exchanged positions at least some of the time. I will grant you that the story is ambiguous; you can interpret the horseback quote several ways. But in the movie, we see that in the second tent scene, that Ennis tugged or pulled Jack over on top of him and while the scene ends there, our imagination can fill in the rest. Finally, the two shirts, Jeff. In Jack's closet, Jack's shirt is on top while in Ennis' closet, Ennis shirt is on top. What more proof do you need?  ;)

Well, there's position--maybe posture would be a clearer term?--and then there's who's doing what to whom. Granted, in the second tent scene we see Jack roll over "on top" of Ennis, but, based on my own experience of "my people," that in no way indicates to me that in that encounter, Jack fucks Ennis. That scene is also all too short for us to really know what happens when they really get down to brass tacks.  ;) I don't think I even really need to fall back on the story to maintain my position ( ;)) that it would be an egregious violation of the character of Ennis as he's presented to us in the movie for him ever to have been the "receptive" partner.

As for the shirts, that's always been, to me, a "heart thing" that has absolutely nothing to do with sexual role or posture. Jack has Ennis's shirt hidden inside his own shirt, as he has Ennis "hidden inside" his heart. Conversely, when Ennis hangs up the shirts in his trailer, he's doing the same thing--he's keeping Jack inside his heart, as he now has Jack's shirt inside his shirt. I've read somewhere that it was actually Heath Ledger's idea to reverse the shirts this way, and I'm sure that's more or less what he was thinking. Why am I convinced of this? Because if I had a shirt that belonged to my late boyfriend, that's exactly what I would do.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2006, 12:52:22 pm »
it would be an egregious violation of the character of Ennis as he's presented to us in the movie for him ever to have been the "receptive" partner.

Everything Ennis does inside that tent is an egregious violation of his character. That's what's so charming about it. I'm inclined to see the same implication Front-Ranger does in the closing moments of TS2. Wishful thinking, maybe, but ...

It's true, Jeff, that as women we may not be as knowlegable about the norms and customs of "your people." But remember that you are also much more knowlegable than Jack and Ennis were. They're just stumbling along, figuring things out as they go.  I know your point is complex -- that you're referring to behavior that occurs naturally as well as behavior shaped by socialization --  but surely that's at least something to keep in mind.

I completely agree with you about the shirts, though. And well put.
 

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2006, 01:52:46 pm »
it would be an egregious violation of the character of Ennis as he's presented to us in the movie for him ever to have been the "receptive" partner.

Everything Ennis does inside that tent is an egregious violation of his character. That's what's so charming about it. I'm inclined to see the same implication Front-Ranger does in the closing moments of TS2. Wishful thinking, maybe, but ...

It's true, Jeff, that as women we may not be as knowlegable about the norms and customs of "your people." But remember that you are also much more knowlegable than Jack and Ennis were. They're just stumbling along, figuring things out as they go.  I know your point is complex -- that you're referring to behavior that occurs naturally as well as behavior shaped by socialization --  but surely that's at least something to keep in mind.

I completely agree with you about the shirts, though. And well put.
 

Awww, Katherine. ... (blushes). Just read your last post on the post card thread. Thanks!

Now back to business.

Interesting. I just read Front-Ranger's last post again. As if I actually need an excuse to watch the film again--here's one. It has always, in ten viewings, appeared to me, that in the second tent scene it is Jack rolling over on top of Ennis, not Ennis pulling Jack on top of himself.

Now, please try to help me out, here. I am trying to understand, and no offense or disrespect to anyone's opinion intended, but why do some of you women apparently have such a difficult time with the idea that Ennis didn't get fucked by Jack? This isn't a gay thing. Do you not get how powerful the taboo is among "straight" males against "taking it up the ass"? I would have an easier time believing that the Ennis of the original story, who at least can admit that he shouldn't have let Jack out of his sights, would switch roles, but not the Ennis of the film. That man, Ennis of the film, is extremely internally homophobic. That's one of his defining characteristics--this is what I meant when I said it would be an egregious violation of his character for him to have been the receptive partner.

The answer is not that Ennis isn't really "straight," because that is how he sees and defines himself. Guys like Ennis can ass-fuck any number of "queers" and emerge with their self-image intact because they've still played the "man's part." But try to turn the tables on them, you'll end up like Earl.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2006, 04:02:54 pm »
Quote
Do you not get how powerful the taboo is among "straight" males against "taking it up the ass"?

Guess I don't because I have known several straight men who have enjoyed anal penetration and the resultant pleasure. Maybe not being fucked by another man, but fingers, dildos, other objects that may have been, ahem, available...all worked...


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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2006, 04:13:59 pm »
Interesting. I just read Front-Ranger's last post again. As if I actually need an excuse to watch the film again--here's one. It has always, in ten viewings, appeared to me, that in the second tent scene it is Jack rolling over on top of Ennis, not Ennis pulling Jack on top of himself.

Now, please try to help me out, here. I am trying to understand, and no offense or disrespect to anyone's opinion intended, but why do some of you women apparently have such a difficult time with the idea that Ennis didn't get fucked by Jack? This isn't a gay thing. Do you not get how powerful the taboo is among "straight" males against "taking it up the ass"? I would have an easier time believing that the Ennis of the original story, who at least can admit that he shouldn't have let Jack out of his sights, would switch roles, but not the Ennis of the film. That man, Ennis of the film, is extremely internally homophobic. That's one of his defining characteristics--this is what I meant when I said it would be an egregious violation of his character for him to have been the receptive partner.

The answer is not that Ennis isn't really "straight," because that is how he sees and defines himself. Guys like Ennis can ass-fuck any number of "queers" and emerge with their self-image intact because they've still played the "man's part." But try to turn the tables on them, you'll end up like Earl.

I really wish more men would join this discussion. It does seem odd for so many women to be debating it with one man, who is thus forced to be the sole spokesman for the entire gay community. Not that I don't respect your opinon, Jeff, obviously, but it would be nice to hear some others.

Everything you say makes sense. And again, maybe I just have to defer to you because of our demographic differences. But doesn't your view involve at least a little leap of assumption? I mean, isn't there the slightest room for doubt?

I don't know why the women in this discussion care what the answer is on this. I'm not even sure I necessarily do. Maybe we're just arguing for the sake of arguing, or maybe it's just to try to understand the way things like that work.

Anyway, I may agree with you on the tent scene. I've heard people say Ennis was pulling and I have tried to see it that way and think I sort of can, but my initial impression was that it was Jack rolling.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2006, 04:20:05 pm »
Quote
Do you not get how powerful the taboo is among "straight" males against "taking it up the ass"?

Guess I don't because I have known several straight men who have enjoyed anal penetration and the resultant pleasure. Maybe not being fucked by another man, but fingers, dildos, other objects that may have been, ahem, available...all worked...




Good and valid point. My real point, perhaps not stated as clearly as it should have been, is "taking it up the ass from another man"--getting fucked by another man. In Western society the taboo goes all the way back to the Romans, at least. Getting fucked--front or back--was something for boys, slaves, and women, not for free adult males.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2006, 04:48:27 pm »
Interesting. I just read Front-Ranger's last post again. As if I actually need an excuse to watch the film again--here's one. It has always, in ten viewings, appeared to me, that in the second tent scene it is Jack rolling over on top of Ennis, not Ennis pulling Jack on top of himself.

Now, please try to help me out, here. I am trying to understand, and no offense or disrespect to anyone's opinion intended, but why do some of you women apparently have such a difficult time with the idea that Ennis didn't get fucked by Jack? This isn't a gay thing. Do you not get how powerful the taboo is among "straight" males against "taking it up the ass"? I would have an easier time believing that the Ennis of the original story, who at least can admit that he shouldn't have let Jack out of his sights, would switch roles, but not the Ennis of the film. That man, Ennis of the film, is extremely internally homophobic. That's one of his defining characteristics--this is what I meant when I said it would be an egregious violation of his character for him to have been the receptive partner.

The answer is not that Ennis isn't really "straight," because that is how he sees and defines himself. Guys like Ennis can ass-fuck any number of "queers" and emerge with their self-image intact because they've still played the "man's part." But try to turn the tables on them, you'll end up like Earl.

I really wish more men would join this discussion. It does seem odd for so many women to be debating it with one man, who is thus forced to be the sole spokesman for the entire gay community. Not that I don't respect your opinon, Jeff, obviously, but it would be nice to hear some others.

Everything you say makes sense. And again, maybe I just have to defer to you because of our demographic differences. But doesn't your view involve at least a little leap of assumption? I mean, isn't there the slightest room for doubt?

I don't know why the women in this discussion care what the answer is on this. I'm not even sure I necessarily do. Maybe we're just arguing for the sake of arguing, or maybe it's just to try to understand the way things like that work.

Anyway, I may agree with you on the tent scene. I've heard people say Ennis was pulling and I have tried to see it that way and think I sort of can, but my initial impression was that it was Jack rolling.

Tell you what, Katherine, I wish we could have had other guys weigh in on this one, too, because I'm not comfortable being cast in the role of spokesperson for anyone's point of view other than my own.

Aren't we all making assumptions, regardless of our view? I don't like being confrontational, so I wish I could admit to even a teeny iota of doubt, because I hate to come across as so obstinate, but on this issue, the truth is, I have none. I know it's not a case of allowing my understanding of the story to corrupt my view of the movie because I feel that "Story Ennis" is less internally homophobic than "Movie Ennis," and I don't see "Story Ennis" getting penetrated by Jack either. But in my 20 years "out" I've even known openly gay men with rigid views of sex performance roles--they'd never dream of "switching"--so in the case of a character as terrified of being "queer" as I see Ennis, I see it as even less likely to happen.  I just can't see him ever taking the passive or submissive role.

I'll admit I can see Jack "switching" and taking the active role, perhaps on a trip to Mexico, because I see Jack as more evolved and less terrified of who he is, but when he's with Ennis, he's the passive partner. I understand his frustrated outburst about not getting by on a couple of high-altitude fucks a couple of times a year in quite a literal sense--he needs to be fucked--and preferably by Ennis--more often than a couple of times a year.

I don't mean to come across as if I'm insisting "I'm right and you're wrong" because none of this is ultimately provable. I'd like to understand why this seems to be so important to some women fans. I'd budge if I could, but on this one I'm afraid my understanding is immovably fixed. Sorry!
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 05:55:36 pm by Jeff Wrangler »
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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2006, 05:48:41 pm »
Interesting. I just read Front-Ranger's last post again. As if I actually need an excuse to watch the film again--here's one. It has always, in ten viewings, appeared to me, that in the second tent scene it is Jack rolling over on top of Ennis, not Ennis pulling Jack on top of himself.

Now, please try to help me out, here. I am trying to understand, and no offense or disrespect to anyone's opinion intended, but why do some of you women apparently have such a difficult time with the idea that Ennis didn't get fucked by Jack? This isn't a gay thing. Do you not get how powerful the taboo is among "straight" males against "taking it up the ass"? I would have an easier time believing that the Ennis of the original story, who at least can admit that he shouldn't have let Jack out of his sights, would switch roles, but not the Ennis of the film. That man, Ennis of the film, is extremely internally homophobic. That's one of his defining characteristics--this is what I meant when I said it would be an egregious violation of his character for him to have been the receptive partner.

The answer is not that Ennis isn't really "straight," because that is how he sees and defines himself. Guys like Ennis can ass-fuck any number of "queers" and emerge with their self-image intact because they've still played the "man's part." But try to turn the tables on them, you'll end up like Earl.

I really wish more men would join this discussion. It does seem odd for so many women to be debating it with one man, who is thus forced to be the sole spokesman for the entire gay community. Not that I don't respect your opinon, Jeff, obviously, but it would be nice to hear some others.

Everything you say makes sense. And again, maybe I just have to defer to you because of our demographic differences. But doesn't your view involve at least a little leap of assumption? I mean, isn't there the slightest room for doubt?

I don't know why the women in this discussion care what the answer is on this. I'm not even sure I necessarily do. Maybe we're just arguing for the sake of arguing, or maybe it's just to try to understand the way things like that work.

Anyway, I may agree with you on the tent scene. I've heard people say Ennis was pulling and I have tried to see it that way and think I sort of can, but my initial impression was that it was Jack rolling.

Tell you what, Katherine, I wish we could have had other guys weigh in on this one, too, because I'm not comfortable being cast in the role of spokesperson for anyone's point of view other than my own.

Aren't we al make assumptions, regardless of our view? I don't like being confrontational, so I wish I could admit to even a teeny iota of doubt, because I hate to come across as so obstinate, but on this issue, the truth is, I have none. I know it's not a case of allowing my understanding of the story to corrupt my view of the movie because I feel that "Story Ennis" is less internally homophobic than "Movie Ennis," and I don't see "Story Ennis" getting penetrated by Jack either. But in my 20 years "out" I've even known openly gay men with rigid views of sex performance roles--they'd never dream of "switching"--so in the case of a character as terrified of being "queer" as I see Ennis, I see it as even less likely to happen.  I just can't see him ever taking the passive or submissive role.

I'll admit I can see Jack "switching" and taking the active role, perhaps on a trip to Mexico, because I see Jack as more evolved and less terrified of who he is, but when he's with Ennis, he's the passive partner. I understand his frustrated outburst about not getting by on a couple of high-altitude fucks a couple of times a year in quite a literal sense--he needs to be fucked--and preferably by Ennis--more often than a couple of times a year.

I don't mean to come across as if I'm insisting "I'm right and you're wrong" because none of this is ultimately provable. I'd like to understand why this seems to be so important to some women fans. I'd budge if I could, but on this one I'm afraid my understanding is immovably fixed. Sorry!
I'll weigh in on this one, guys, for what it's worth as another gay male voice on this issue.

I agree with Jeff on the improbability of Ennis deviating much, if ever, from the dominant, "top" position in regard to his sexual relations with Jack. I think he would be more likely to become more experimental as time passed and he felt more at ease with his sexual identity, but I'm not sure how much he would have progressed along these lines before the moment of Jack's death. It is that latter event that forces Ennis to acknowledge, if only to himself, the reality of what Jack was, and the true nature of their relationship.

Now, we know that Ennis was in love with Jack while Jack was still living (though it's debatable how conscious Ennis was of his true feelings), and strong love can propel people into activities and gestures that they might not otherwise countenance. But Ennis's strong internalized homophobia may have acted as a potent counterbalance to any impulse he might have entertained of reciprocating Jack's position/role, though this does beg the question of how he rationalized Jack's playing of that role, considering the impression I have that, for most of their time together, Ennis insisted in his mind that Jack, like he, is really a straight guy who is overtaken by this strange "thing" that exists between them.

Another observation: I have observed, in gay male pornography, the frequent phenomenon of some performers reciprocating fellatio but never receptive anal intercourse. If Ennis ever did "service" Jack, I think it far more likely that he would have done so orally rather than anally. Of course, either way, we can never know for sure.

Cordially,
Scott
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 07:09:47 pm by moremojo »

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2006, 07:16:59 pm »
Okay Jeff and Scott. I stand (or sit, or ride) corrected. But only because your birthday's coming up!  ;D
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2006, 10:05:57 pm »
Okay Jeff and Scott. I stand (or sit, or ride) corrected. But only because your birthday's coming up!  ;D

Well, now you're making me feel bad!  :(  Don't give up your opinion just because someone has a birthday coming up! (Birthday? What birthday?  :o )

Scott, if you see this, I appreciate you joining in. I was feeling kind of lonely. ... And improbable was a good choice of words. Actually, as I read it again, your whole post was very well put and well argued! And you do raise a very important issue that hasn't been part of this discussion, how Ennis rationalized Jack's role in their relations. I'm wondering whether he just didn't allow himself to think about it--until, perhaps, Jack's admission that he had been to Mexico kind of forced Ennis to face up to it.

Interesting point you raise about the pornography, too. Personally, though, I have to disagree with you on one point. The idea of Ennis sucking cock strikes me as just about as improbable as the idea of him getting fucked. I would imagine he'd find that just as "queer" as getting fucked. But, you're right. We can never know for sure.
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2006, 10:13:05 pm »
I agree with Jeff on the improbability of Ennis deviating much, if ever, from the dominant, "top" position in regard to his sexual relations with Jack. I think he would be more likely to become more experimental as time passed and he felt more at ease with his sexual identity, but I'm not sure how much he would have progressed along these lines before the moment of Jack's death. It is that latter event that forces Ennis to acknowledge, if only to himself, the reality of what Jack was, and the true nature of their relationship.

Now, we know that Ennis was in love with Jack while Jack was still living (though it's debatable how conscious Ennis was of his true feelings), and strong love can propel people into activities and gestures that they might not otherwise countenance. But Ennis's strong internalized homophobia may have acted as a potent counterbalance to any impulse he might have entertained of reciprocating Jack's position/role, though this does beg the question of how he rationalized Jack's playing of that role, considering the impression I have that, for most of their time together, Ennis insisted in his mind that Jack, like he, is really a straight guy who is overtaken by this strange "thing" that exists between them.

Another observation: I have observed, in gay male pornography, the frequent phenomenon of some performers reciprocating fellatio but never receptive anal intercourse. If Ennis ever did "service" Jack, I think it far more likely that he would have done so orally rather than anally. Of course, either way, we can never know for sure.

It's one of life's great mysteries to me, why men gay or straight would have such strong opinions about the subject of where one person's anatomy is inserted into another's.  Sure receiving may be considered for "special" occasions, or maybe requiring the giving up of a certain amount of authority, but I don't know why giving is somehow manlier than receiving and that a repressed individual would necessarily make them unable to deal with it.  With Ennis and Jack I see them both as versatile.  Jack, we know is because of TS1, but I get that impression also from Ennis in the "afterglow" scene in the hotel, lying blissfully in Jack's arms.  I don't see this as an egregious violation of the character at all; in fact I see it as being part of the reason why Ennis is so conflicted.  And these are not just two guys having sex, they are in total love with each other (conscious or not), and I think that distinguishes them from the guys who do or do not like playing hide the salami, and who does the hiding!
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Offline MaineWriter

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2006, 10:51:41 pm »
t of their time together, Ennis insisted in his mind that Jack, like he, is really a straight guy who is overtaken by this

It's one of life's great mysteries to me, why men gay or straight would have such strong opinions about the subject of where one person's anatomy is inserted into another's.

Thank you for saying this, Chris...reading some of the messages today, I have to say, I was surprised at the rigidity about how things are done, who participates in what role, etc...to me, if there is any message from the "sexual revolution" of the past 35 years, it is that we should all be open to experimenting, trying new things...all in the name of helping one's partner and oneself find pleasure in the experience. Love can be liberating in this regard...giving you the courage to try things not otherwise considered.

In a gay relationship, if someone is always the "bottom" and someone else always the "top"--is that really any different from het sex always performed in the missionary position?....can get old, fast, in my opinion.

Leslie
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2006, 11:07:09 pm »
t of their time together, Ennis insisted in his mind that Jack, like he, is really a straight guy who is overtaken by this

It's one of life's great mysteries to me, why men gay or straight would have such strong opinions about the subject of where one person's anatomy is inserted into another's.

Thank you for saying this, Chris...reading some of the messages today, I have to say, I was surprised at the rigidity about how things are done, who participates in what role, etc...to me, if there is any message from the "sexual revolution" of the past 35 years, it is that we should all be open to experimenting, trying new things...all in the name of helping one's partner and oneself find pleasure in the experience. Love can be liberating in this regard...giving you the courage to try things not otherwise considered.

In a gay relationship, if someone is always the "bottom" and someone else always the "top"--is that really any different from het sex always performed in the missionary position?....can get old, fast, in my opinion.

Leslie

Bear in mind, everybody isn't this "rigid," But I've known a number of gay men who are, especially in the leather/levi subculture, and these men are a lot like Ennis.

Personally I'd go so far as to say I feel it can be more "manly" "to receive" rather than "to give," but it's Ennis whose been the subject of the discussion, and for a self-deceiving internalized homophobe who clings like a drowning man to his own notion of his "straightness," I can't believe versatility is in the picture.

And there are lots of ways to spice things up, even if each partner always takes the same role--and trust gay men to find them!  ;)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2006, 11:12:00 pm »
The point of the job switch is probably more related to the fact that Jack was doing something illegal by following Aguirre's rules with the "shepherd" being on the "q.t.," which was sort of like pretending the sheep had wandered up the mountain on their own beyond the area which Aguirre's outfit was assigned. And, included in that fact, Aguirre had decided that the sheep would be pastured a long way from the assigned Forest Service platform campsite.

And, the reason that there was to be no fires up on the "q.t" (on the q.t. meant "keeping it quiet") was so the forest rangers or Forest Service would not see an unauthorized campfire or assume that a fire had started on it own where no human was supposed to be.

In the book, they could see lights of vehicles on the road in the valley below at night.

In regard to job duties and domestic roles, in real gay relationships where both men are somewhat "masculine" oriented, there are no male and female roles.

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2006, 11:13:13 pm »


And there are lots of ways to spice things up, even if each partner always takes the same role--and trust gay men to find them!  ;)

But can we agree that gay men have not cornered the market on this? I think *all* people have the potential to spice things up...trouble is, way too many don't bother or have other reasons for not figuring it out....

L
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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2006, 11:43:20 pm »
Personally I'd go so far as to say I feel it can be more "manly" "to receive" rather than "to give," but it's Ennis whose been the subject of the discussion, and for a self-deceiving internalized homophobe who clings like a drowning man to his own notion of his "straightness," I can't believe versatility is in the picture.

There's no doubt in my mind that you are right on the whole Jeff, and I was fully keeping Ennis in mind when I was thinking of his "versitility".  So much of this discussion is centred on our projected thoughts and experiences, applying them to Ennis like a white-wash and calling it a complete work of art.  I agree that Ennis' homophobia would dominate much of what he thought was ok and not ok.  But as someone here also said, they couldn't imagine someone as homophobic as Ennis even giving head.  Isn't this the whole point though?  Everything about Ennis' external appearance is straight except when he is with Jack.  Only with Jack do all the "rules" no longer apply.  And we're talking about a 20 year affair here.  I also find it hard to believe that Ennis remained on top all those years, even for one so stoic.
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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2006, 11:54:04 pm »
Oh, I think that Ennis was a "submissive top" on occasion. And, from the way that I read, meaning continue to read, what Annie Proulx wrote in the Motel Siesta scene, when the guys finally get to talking, Jack had just topped Ennis with Ennis riding on the "the horse," --<<< that is from Jack's comment about riding horseback so much.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2006, 12:49:13 am »
I agree that Ennis' homophobia would dominate much of what he thought was ok and not ok.  But as someone here also said, they couldn't imagine someone as homophobic as Ennis even giving head.  Isn't this the whole point though?  Everything about Ennis' external appearance is straight except when he is with Jack.  Only with Jack do all the "rules" no longer apply.  And we're talking about a 20 year affair here.

Chris, this opinion is the one I had going into this discussion: that it's hard to predict exactly WHAT Ennis might do or not do because the very fact that he's having sex with a man is so foreign for him in the first place. To say he would never in a million years switch positions -- well, he never in a million years would have done ANY of this if it weren't for Jack (note in case this is unclear: I'm not saying Ennis wouldn't still be gay without Jack, only that he probably never would have acted on it), so how can you draw a line? He's already breaking his own taboos left and right.

Anyway, I'm glad to see there's some diversity of viewpoints even among the experts. Jeff, I understand what you're saying and it makes perfect sense, too. All I was hoping for was support for the contention that there's at least a bit of room for disagreement.

One argument I often see that I DO object to, though, is one that goes something like, Well, we all know Ennis is homophobic so therefore he would never do this or that or, Ennis wouldn't be able to handle it if he knew Jack were doing this or that. What goes on in Ennis' mind for 20 years seems very nebulous to me. Clearly there's both a homophobic side and a loving Jack side, but how those opposing feelings coexist is a matter of pure conjecture. My view is that for most of the time he is able to compartmentalize these emotions, acknowleging each individually but not allowing himself to examine the contradiction too closely, and so manages to keep them in a tenuous balance. But that causes a lot of stress. His "I can't stand it no more" in the final argument is him finally breaking down under the strain.

That's one reason I also don't buy the argument that Ennis realizes he loves Jack only after Jack is dead. If he didn't know he loved him, the balance would have fallen apart long ago. What would keep the homophobia in check? Why would he go to all that risk and bother for all those years?







« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 01:36:57 am by latjoreme »

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2006, 03:30:57 am »
Chris, this opinion is the one I had going into this discussion: that it's hard to predict exactly WHAT Ennis might do or not do because the very fact that he's having sex with a man is so foreign for him in the first place. To say he would never in a million years switch positions -- well, he never in a million years would have done ANY of this if it weren't for Jack (note in case this is unclear: I'm not saying Ennis wouldn't still be gay without Jack, only that he probably never would have acted on it), so how can you draw a line? He's already breaking his own taboos left and right.

*Sigh*  So I was slow off the mark...  again!
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2006, 09:01:44 am »


And there are lots of ways to spice things up, even if each partner always takes the same role--and trust gay men to find them!  ;)

But can we agree that gay men have not cornered the market on this? I think *all* people have the potential to spice things up...trouble is, way too many don't bother or have other reasons for not figuring it out....

L

I won't dispute the point, I'm just not equipped to comment on something I have no experience of.   :)

And looking back over my own last post, it would have more accurately conveyed what I was trying to say to have written, "Ennis is a lot like these men," rather than, "these men are a lot like Ennis."
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2006, 09:36:00 am »
Anyway, I'm glad to see there's some diversity of viewpoints even among the experts. Jeff, I understand what you're saying and it makes perfect sense, too. All I was hoping for was support for the contention that there's at least a bit of room for disagreement.

Please don't call me an "expert." That makes me very uncomfortable. I write only from my own life experience and my close reading of the Annie Proulx text, which I use to complement my viewing of the film, and, to a lesser extent, vice versa.

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One argument I often see that I DO object to, though, is one that goes something like, Well, we all know Ennis is homophobic so therefore he would never do this or that or, Ennis wouldn't be able to handle it if he knew Jack were doing this or that. What goes on in Ennis' mind for 20 years seems very nebulous to me. Clearly there's both a homophobic side and a loving Jack side, but how those opposing feelings coexist is a matter of pure conjecture. My view is that for most of the time he is able to compartmentalize these emotions, acknowleging each individually but not allowing himself to examine the contradiction too closely, and so manages to keep them in a tenuous balance. But that causes a lot of stress. His "I can't stand it no more" in the final argument is him finally breaking down under the strain.

I'm not sure I'm following your argument here--not disputing it, just not sure I'm following your reasoning. I agree Ennis compartmentalizes his life. (In fact, for me, one of the more discomfiting things about this movie is that it has made me realize how much of a tendency I have to compartmentalize my own life.) But I've understood the confrontation scene this way: Jack's admission that he's been to Mexico forces the issue--forces Ennis to face the compartmentalization that he's been doing for nearly 20 years. He can't ignore, deny, or compartmentalize his emotions any longer, and he cracks under the strain, lashing out at Jack and collapsing in a heap. This is not to say the pressure hasn't been building for years, just that Jack's revelation is the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back.

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That's one reason I also don't buy the argument that Ennis realizes he loves Jack only after Jack is dead. If he didn't know he loved him, the balance would have fallen apart long ago. What would keep the homophobia in check? Why would he go to all that risk and bother for all those years?

Well, clearly Ennis is in touch with the fact that Jack is the best friend he's ever had. I think he also keeps telling himself that he and Jack have this "one-shot" deal going on--another factor in his collapse is being forced to face up to the fact that it hasn't been a one-shot thing for Jack, that Jack has been having sex with other guys. As for my conviction that Ennis isn't really cognizant that he loves Jack until Jack is dead, that's grounded in Diana Ossana's comment, in her essay in Story to Screenplay, about Ennis not being in touch with his feelings. I'm sorry I can't quote it, as I don't have the book with me here at work.

Taken by itself, it's perfectly possible for Jack's comment about the time Ennis spends on horseback to mean that those saddle muscles make Ennis just as good a "fuckee" as a "fucker." I personally don't accept that interpretation because Annie Proulx's text has only given us Ennis fucking Jack, in what we know as "the first tent scene."
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2006, 09:38:24 am »
*Sigh*  So I was slow off the mark...  again!

No no no, Chris!!! I'm not staking claim to the idea. Just that my opinion was being disputed. So I just meant, thanks for agreeing!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2006, 10:05:44 am »
Please don't call me an "expert." That makes me very uncomfortable. I write only from my own life experience and my close reading of the Annie Proulx text, which I use to complement my viewing of the film, and, to a lesser extent, vice versa.

I was using the term loosely and sort of flippantly to refer to you and the other men here, who have direct experience with these matters, as compared to the women, who mostly have to guess or extrapolate from our own dissimilar experiences.

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But I've understood the confrontation scene this way: Jack's admission that he's been to Mexico forces the issue--forces Ennis to face the compartmentalization that he's been doing for nearly 20 years. He can't ignore, deny, or compartmentalize his emotions any longer, and he cracks under the strain, lashing out at Jack and collapsing in a heap. This is not to say the pressure hasn't been building for years, just that Jack's revelation is the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back.

Jeff, you have a really different take on that scene than I have, if you believe that what triggers Ennis' collapse is the revelation that Jack's been to Mexico (and therefore is unequivocally gay). Mine is that the the trigger is his fear over the implicit threat of abandonment in Jack's speech. As for Mexico I assume, based on how quickly Ennis guessed that Jack had been there, that he'd suspected that for a while.

Wait. On second thought, I agree the concept does bring to the fore the two opposing thoughts -- homophobia and love (mainly, the implicit threat of losing it) -- so perhaps it does play a part. But I don't think Mexico, in and of itself, is the main problem for Ennis.

Is that making any sense? I'm four minutes late to do a phone interview, so I'm kind of rushing, but I am interested in this topic and would be glad to get back to it if you wish.

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Well, clearly Ennis is in touch with the fact that Jack is the best friend he's ever had. I think he also keeps telling himself that he and Jack have this "one-shot" deal going on--another factor in his collapse is being forced to face up to the fact that it hasn't been a one-shot thing for Jack, that Jack has been having sex with other guys. As for my conviction that Ennis isn't really cognizant that he loves Jack until Jack is dead, that's grounded in Diana Ossana's comment, in her essay in Story to Screenplay, about Ennis not being in touch with his feelings. I'm sorry I can't quote it, as I don't have the book with me here at work.

I agree that Ennis is not in touch with his feelings prior to the summer of '63, because he forces himself to remain out of touch. After that, it just doesn't make sense, so if that's what Diana is referring to I'll have to respectfully disagree. How would your scenario actually work in his head? Confused as he is, could anyone really have a 20-year relationship like this and NOT recognizes it as love, whether or not he uses that actual word to explain it to himself? If he continues to call it "this thing," it's still love.

For that matter, I go so far as to think that over 20 years it has also dawned on him that he is gay, because I can't imagine him failing to notice that.

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Taken by itself, it's perfectly possible for Jack's comment about the time Ennis spends on horseback to mean that those saddle muscles make Ennis just as good a "fuckee" as a "fucker."

Regarding both this and the "riding bulls" remark, I took them less literally. I just figured Annie used these metaphors because they fit handily into the context, matched the characters' typical colloquialisms, and would be readily understood by readers of all orientations. But I could be wrong.


Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2006, 12:09:10 pm »
Quote
Well, clearly Ennis is in touch with the fact that Jack is the best friend he's ever had. I think he also keeps telling himself that he and Jack have this "one-shot" deal going on--another factor in his collapse is being forced to face up to the fact that it hasn't been a one-shot thing for Jack, that Jack has been having sex with other guys. As for my conviction that Ennis isn't really cognizant that he loves Jack until Jack is dead, that's grounded in Diana Ossana's comment, in her essay in Story to Screenplay, about Ennis not being in touch with his feelings. I'm sorry I can't quote it, as I don't have the book with me here at work.

I agree that Ennis is not in touch with his feelings prior to the summer of '63, because he forces himself to remain out of touch. After that, it just doesn't make sense, so if that's what Diana is referring to I'll have to respectfully disagree. How would your scenario actually work in his head? Confused as he is, could anyone really have a 20-year relationship like this and NOT recognizes it as love, whether or not he uses that actual word to explain it to himself? If he continues to call it "this thing," it's still love.

For that matter, I go so far as to think that over 20 years it has also dawned on him that he is gay, because I can't imagine him failing to notice that.

Whew, got that pesky making-a-livin stuff out of the way for the time being so I can get back to concentrating on my real mission in life: analyzing this movie.

To clarify what I said above, I'm trying to put myself in Ennis' head. OK, I have this relationship with a man. I admire him and think he's funny. I really enjoy spending time with him. I can be myself when I'm with him, can confide in him, can feel comfortable with him in a way that I can't around anyone else. I'd rather be with him than anyone else in the world. He seems to feel the same way about me and that makes me happy. So far, so good: very close friend.

But also, I find him handsome, I think about him constantly, I pine for him when he's not around, my life feels empty when he's not in it, I wring it out imagining him, when I'm in bed with my wife I pretend she's him, when he says he's coming to visit I spend hours waiting at the window, when I do see him I can hardly wait to kiss him and have sex with him, his touch is electrifying, I am so overjoyed when I see him that I thank God for his presence and then tell him I just did so, I am willing to compromise my financial security and destroy my marriage in order to spend time with him, my physical passion for him is so great I can't trust myself to control it in public ... Now it feels like more than just a regular friendship.

So either we're differing over semantics or Ennis is an idiot, and I don't believe the latter. To me, it's easier to imagine him reasoning that, on the one hand, loving men is wrong and shameful, and on the other, I really love this guy. Yes, I realize there's an apparent conflict there, but this is a one-shot thing, a big exception to the rule, and as long as nobody else knows about it and I don't think too hard about the contradiction, everything will be OK.






« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 06:40:40 pm by latjoreme »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2006, 10:01:30 pm »
Katherine,

OK, all this quoting with its coding is starting to confuse me. Let's see if I can respond without confusing myself!

No problem about the "expert" remark; it's forgotten.

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Jeff, you have a really different take on that scene than I have, if you believe that what triggers Ennis' collapse is the revelation that Jack's been to Mexico (and therefore is unequivocally gay). Mine is that the the trigger is his fear over the implicit threat of abandonment in Jack's speech. As for Mexico I assume, based on how quickly Ennis guessed that Jack had been there, that he'd suspected that for a while.

Yes, I guess we do have a fundamental difference on this scene, and I think we will just have to agree to disagree. I will, however, agree that there is a fundamental threat in Jack's "wish I knew how to quit you" speech. And it's even plausible that Ennis has been suspecting that Jack has been going to Mexico, though it is Jack who brought up the subject, complaining about the cold.

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But I don't think Mexico, in and of itself, is the main problem for Ennis.

Nor do I. The issue in my understanding, as I tried to explain previously, is what Jack's Mexico trips represent: Their relationship isn't a "one-shot deal," and Jack has been having sex with other guys. I'll even allow that some ordinary human jealousy that some other guys have been fucking his "boy" plays into Ennis's reaction.

But I remain convinced that this a very complex scene, that Ennis's reaction is complex, and that the main driving force for the violence of Ennis's reaction is his internalized homophobia. The revelation of Jack's trips to Mexico forces Ennis into a position where he can no longer maintain the "compartmentalization" of his life. It forces Ennis to deal with the fact that their relationship isn't what he has been telling himself for 20 years that it is, and Jack is gay. It forces Ennis to face reality, which threatens his self-concept (as "straight"), and he responds to this stress the way he has consistently responded to stress throughout the film, with violence or the threat of violence.

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I agree that Ennis is not in touch with his feelings prior to the summer of '63, because he forces himself to remain out of touch. After that, it just doesn't make sense, so if that's what Diana is referring to I'll have to respectfully disagree.

Here is the sentence from Diana Ossana's essay in Story to Screenplay  (p. 146) that has been key in helping me to develop my understanding of this film, and of Ennis in particular:

"[Annie Proulx] and I spoke about Ennis and his stoicism, his background, his homophobic worldview, his inability to access his emotions."

No flippancy or disrespect intended but I really don't see how you can "respectfully disagree" with one of the individuals responsible for bringing Ennis to life on the screen. We can all formulate our own interpretations, but in the end the authoritative voices belong to Annie Proulx, Larry McMurtry, Diana Ossana, Ang Lee, and Heath Ledger.

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How would your scenario actually work in his head? Confused as he is, could anyone really have a 20-year relationship like this and NOT recognizes it as love, whether or not he uses that actual word to explain it to himself? If he continues to call it "this thing," it's still love.

Yes, it is love. But does this mean Ennis is willing to face up to it? In my view, he continues to deny it until the crisis of Jack's death, of really losing Jack, breaks down his resistance and he can't deny it any more. And it's too late. That's his tragedy.

Quote
For that matter, I go so far as to think that over 20 years it has also dawned on him that he is gay, because I can't imagine him failing to notice that.

Again, noticing something and accepting it and facing up to it are two different things. You'll have to trust me on this one: Some of us gay men go through this, though I'll grant you it may not ordinarily take 20 years (though I've heard of some cases where it does even take a lot longer).

Quote
Regarding both this [my comment about Jack's remark about the time Ennis spends on horseback making it so good] and the "riding bulls" remark, I took them less literally. I just figured Annie used these metaphors because they fit handily into the context, matched the characters' typical colloquialisms, and would be readily understood by readers of all orientations. But I could be wrong.

Even if my more literal understanding is closer to what Annie Proulx meant, that doesn't make you "wrong." The "riding bulls" remark still, at base, means Jack has been having sex with other guys instead of just masturbating, like Ennis.

Jeff
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2006, 01:34:53 am »
Quote
I've always, since 1997, taken that to mean that Ennis has well-developed saddle muscles that enable him to throw a good fuck.

This is also where the narrative tells us that Jack lies to Ennis about his sexual activity with other guys: "'Shit no,' said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own."

Do we know for sure that's what it means though?

We all have discussed this same thing on other threads I recall, but I don't think we ever got a definitive answer.  As as woman, a man can ask me to 'ride him' which obviously means peg A in slot B.  But a Civil War soldier spoke of going to a whorehouse and 'riding a Dutch gal', meaning of course the same thing, but HE was doing the 'riding'.  So it seems the expression can be used either way.

Based on the text, we can be reasonably certain.

First time up, Ennis fucks Jack. That's clear from Annie Proulx's description of their first sexual encounter.

I won't dispute that the description could be used either way, but do bear in mind we're not talking about heterosexual sex here. Jack "rides" bulls. The implication here--to a gay man reading it--is that Jack's the one getting fucked, and there is nothing in Annie Proulx's text to indicate this changes. The analogy is Jack sitting down on a bull to ride it compared to Jack "sitting down" on Ennis's cock. Possibly the position used might change, but the understanding of this gay man--and of all the other gay men in my social circle--is that the one who is getting fucked is the one who is getting a cock inserted in his ass, regardless of whether he is being taken from behind--as in the first tent scene--or whether he might be straddling his partner and sitting down on his partner's erection.

Some gay men do switch roles. Every indication that we have of Ennis's character, in particular in the movie where internalized homophobia is such an important part of Ennis's make-up, suggests that he is not one of those gay men who switch roles. For Ennis, especially "Movie Ennis," to take Jack's cock up his own ass would have made him "queer." It just didn't happen.

Any other gay men care to "ride" this one?

Jeff, I think you make a strong argument, but I'm not convinced that "ride" meant getting fucked. The term might be used that way among your circle, but even in gay bars, I've heard it used interchangably. The imagery of "riding someone's ass" is having the person on all four and taking him from behind. (I"m sorry for the language, but we're getting into a water where the precise meaning of a word is necessary)

We do see a hint at a reversal. At the camp fire conversation, before the lake side showdown, it's Ennis who moves his hand between Jack's legs. I think he's more comfortable with Jack's cock than you suggested. Certainly the scene doesn't reveal anything specific, but it hints at Ennis being willing to give little Jack some happy attention.

Quote
Now, please try to help me out, here. I am trying to understand, and no offense or disrespect to anyone's opinion intended, but why do some of you women apparently have such a difficult time with the idea that Ennis didn't get fucked by Jack? This isn't a gay thing. Do you not get how powerful the taboo is among "straight" males against "taking it up the ass"? I would have an easier time believing that the Ennis of the original story, who at least can admit that he shouldn't have let Jack out of his sights, would switch roles, but not the Ennis of the film. That man, Ennis of the film, is extremely internally homophobic. That's one of his defining characteristics--this is what I meant when I said it would be an egregious violation of his character for him to have been the receptive partner.

The answer is not that Ennis isn't really "straight," because that is how he sees and defines himself. Guys like Ennis can ass-fuck any number of "queers" and emerge with their self-image intact because they've still played the "man's part." But try to turn the tables on them, you'll end up like Earl.

and I don't know if movie Ennis is that conflicted about being queer. He knows he is, as he asks Jack about having the feel ing that people are looking and knowing. To me, his conflict is not being able to envision a place for them to freely express their love and live a life together. So I really don't think it's that out of character for him to switch the sexual role with Jack once in a while.

That said, I'm arguing for the sake of exploring the ideas. I'm not sure I believe strongly one way or another. There's not enough to solidify their sexual dynamic in my mind.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 01:45:17 am by starboardlight »
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2006, 01:40:25 am »
Jeff, it's looking like no matter how many times we argue about this, I will never be able to convince you that I am right. ;) We've reached an impasse; there is a fundamental difference in the way you and I understand the whole movie. Oh well. There are others among us at BetterMost who agree with you, and others who agree with me.

But of course, I can't just leave it there without a FEW quick comments. (I feel like such a thread hog! If only I could harness all this verbal energy for actual work!)

Quote
"[Annie Proulx] and I spoke about Ennis and his stoicism, his background, his homophobic worldview, his inability to access his emotions."

No flippancy or disrespect intended but I really don't see how you can "respectfully disagree" with one of the individuals responsible for bringing Ennis to life on the screen. We can all formulate our own interpretations, but in the end the authoritative voices belong to Annie Proulx, Larry McMurtry, Diana Ossana, Ang Lee, and Heath Ledger.

I don't know how I can disagree with her, except that her phrase just does not strike me as an accurate way to describe what I see onscreen. For that matter, I'm not exactly sure what she means by "inability to access." Maybe she is using the phrase in an offhand way, without closely examining its exact meaning, to loosely refer to Ennis' ability to accept himself. Maybe she's using it in a pop-psychology way, as you might say Ennis "has issues" or something. Maybe she's referring to the way Ennis at 19. Maybe she's just wrong. Diana (and by extension Annie) are undeniably important forces in shaping the movie, but you just mentioned three others who also had a hand.

Quote
Yes, it is love. But does this mean Ennis is willing to face up to it? In my view, he continues to deny it until the crisis of Jack's death, of really losing Jack, breaks down his resistance and he can't deny it any more. And it's too late. That's his tragedy.

... Again, noticing something and accepting it and facing up to it are two different things. You'll have to trust me on this one: Some of us gay men go through this, though I'll grant you it may not ordinarily take 20 years (though I've heard of some cases where it does even take a lot longer).

I'll give you the second point, deferring once again to your greater knowledge of that process, and because I can understand how in reference to one's sexuality there IS a difference between noticing and accepting. In Ennis' case that would be further complicated by denial and repression and so forth.

But love is different. I can't imagine how you could NOTICE that you're in love, behave toward your loved one in a completely and consistently lover-like manner, but still not ACCEPT that you're in love. Not accepting it would mean avoiding the person, treating him coldly, feigning lack of interest, etc. We've all seen that in other movies, and probably also in real life. But that doesn't describe Ennis AT ALL. So just what does it mean here? What DOES he think he's feeling?

I can't imagine how Ennis could act the way he does without being aware of strong emotions toward Jack that include not only friendship but also feelings that take it beyond friendship: sexual attraction and longing and so on. I'lll grant that he may never have used the word "love" to himself. Let's say, he feels "this thing" for Jack. We would translate "this thing" as "love." That counts just as much as if he used the Russian word for love.











Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2006, 12:46:13 pm »
Starboardlight,

Quote
Jeff, I think you make a strong argument, but I'm not convinced that "ride" meant getting fucked. The term might be used that way among your circle, but even in gay bars, I've heard it used interchangably. The imagery of "riding someone's ass" is having the person on all four and taking him from behind. (I"m sorry for the language, but we're getting into a water where the precise meaning of a word is necessary)

Good point. I've heard the term used that way, too. But taken in context of Jack sitting on the bulls as a rodeo bullrider, and the only explicit description we have of their sexual activity involves Ennis fucking Jack, I'm sticking with my interpretation.

Quote
We do see a hint at a reversal. At the camp fire conversation, before the lake side showdown, it's Ennis who moves his hand between Jack's legs. I think he's more comfortable with Jack's cock than you suggested. Certainly the scene doesn't reveal anything specific, but it hints at Ennis being willing to give little Jack some happy attention.

That's an interesting point, too. I'm going to double-check the text, but that will have to wait until I'm at home. I'm writing this at the office, and if I kept a copy of the story with me, I'd never get any work done!
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2006, 01:10:58 pm »
Katherine,

No, we're never going to convince each other. I'm not evangelical about this. My principal concern is being sure that I've explained my own position clearly, and even that, it's now clear to me, is an evolving process.

If you're a thread hog (wonderful phrase!), so am I!

Tell you what, though, I also don't think I'll ever comprehend how you can "disagree" with Diana Ossana. Granted, as even I noted, she wasn't the only one to have a hand in the creation of "Movie Ennis" as we know him, but barring comments from any of the others, it just strikes me as, I don't know--presumptuous?--to say that a creator is "wrong" about a character she helped to create. For the record, since I first read her essay, I've taken the "inability to access" comment to mean "out of touch with" or "not understanding" his own feelings, but maybe that's been clear from what I've said previously of my interpretation.

Quote
What DOES he think he's feeling?

He doesn't know, or understand, what he's feeling. That's my point. He knows the emotion is strong, of course, but, at the risk of prolonging this discussion to absurd lengths, as I'm writing this I'm suddenly thinking that another factor is that Ennis has not seen a whole lot of love in his life, certainly not of the mature, adult variety.

I've written elsewhere in other contexts that a father who forced two little boys to view a desecrated dead body could probably be considered abusive, and in the society and place in which Ennis was raised, he probably didn't see a lot of love from his father, or see his father express a lot of love for Ennis's mother, though I realize this is merely conjecture on my part. I presume he thought he was in love with Alma when he asked her to marry him, but whether he really was or not I have no firm conviction.

So I have no problem believing that Ennis doesn't really understand that what he and Jack share is love until it's too late. Is that realistic? Probably not, but it's a part of the willing suspension of disbelief I make for this story anyway.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline starboardlight

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2006, 03:00:00 pm »
Tell you what, though, I also don't think I'll ever comprehend how you can "disagree" with Diana Ossana. Granted, as even I noted, she wasn't the only one to have a hand in the creation of "Movie Ennis" as we know him, but barring comments from any of the others, it just strikes me as, I don't know--presumptuous?--to say that a creator is "wrong" about a character she helped to create. For the record, since I first read her essay, I've taken the "inability to access" comment to mean "out of touch with" or "not understanding" his own feelings, but maybe that's been clear from what I've said previously of my interpretation.

"presumptuous"? maybe. Post-modern? YES!
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2006, 03:40:22 pm »
OK, maybe "she's wrong" does sound a bit presumptious. (She's misguided? No, kidding.) I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not willing to let six words -- six very ambiguous and possibly casually chosen words -- dictate my interpetation of a central issue in a movie that I care enough about to have spent the past three months discussing constantly.

Besides, I think that's too big a burden to place on that tiny phrase. For one thing, I don't know how literally she meant it; I can imagine writing something like that without examining it all that closely. For another, I don't know exactly what it means. Ennis undeniably can be described as not accessing ALL of his feelings. Until Jack made his move in the tent, Ennis was unable to access his attraction to him. Unable to access his feelings of sadness or fear, Ennis reacts by beating people up. I would not be averse to applying it to his feelings about sexuality, Alma, his childhood. Those all make sense.

But if there's a way to do all the things I listed a couple of posts ago -- all those things people do when they're in love and that Ennis certainly is aware that he's doing -- if you can fully recognize that you long for someone when he's absent and be overjoyed when he's present and so on, if you can do all that stuff yet NOT think of what you feel as something like love ... Well, that's just too abstract a concept for me to grasp. What does that even mean? How would it look inside someone's head? What would they be telling themselves? I can't imagine that in any sort of concrete way.

Let's say for the sake of argument that love has maybe three major requirements that all have to be in place, broadly described as 1) friendship, 2) sexual attaction and 3) something harder to label but combining longing and joy and affection and emotional tension and all those other ways you feel about lovers as opposed to friends. I realize others might catalog these requirements differently, but assuming it goes something like that, then Ennis has all the requirements, and he KNOWS he has them. So almost by definition, he can access his feelings of love. Easily, I think.





Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #66 on: May 03, 2006, 04:18:27 pm »
Tell you what, the truth is, when I read Diana's comment, that was the catalyst that made all the pieces of the puzzle that is Brokeback Mountain fall into place for me. Suddenly I understood the difference between Annie Proulx's original Ennis and the Ennis we see on the screen. At last the movie made sense--it's own sense, but sense nevertheless--to me.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Apparently I also have greater faith in the human capacity for denial than you do.
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Offline j.U.d.E.

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #67 on: May 03, 2006, 05:25:38 pm »
Euh, just bumping for later, sorry.

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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #68 on: May 03, 2006, 05:40:25 pm »
Starboardlight,

Quote
We do see a hint at a reversal. At the camp fire conversation, before the lake side showdown, it's Ennis who moves his hand between Jack's legs. I think he's more comfortable with Jack's cock than you suggested. Certainly the scene doesn't reveal anything specific, but it hints at Ennis being willing to give little Jack some happy attention.

It's been a while since I had time to sit down and watch the DVD, so my memory of the staging of that scene in the film is hazy and I won't address the film's treatment of the conversation. If, however, you are just referring to the Annie Proulx original, then I'm afraid you have it backwards.

Here's the paragraph from the story:

"The horses nickered in the darkness beyond the fire's circle of light. Ennis put his arm around Jack, pulled him close, said he saw his girls about once a month, Alma Jr. a shy seventeen-year-old with his beanpole length, Francine a little live wire. Jack slid his cold hand between Ennis's legs, said he was worried about his boy who was, no doubt about it, dyslexic or something, couldn't get anything right, fifteen years old and couldn't hardly read, he could see it though goddamn Lureen wouldn't admit to it and pretended the kid was o.k., refused to get any bitchin kind a help about it. He didn't know what the fuck the answer was. Lureen had the money and called the shots." [Boldface added by me.]

If Jack is doing anything here besides trying to warm his hand between Ennis's thighs, then he's trying to get Ennis hard so that Ennis can fuck him. Two paragraphs later we are told "they rolled down into the dirt." So in the original story anyway, I believe this passage actually tends to support my interpretation.

But thanks for reminding me of it!
« Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 09:41:58 pm by Jeff Wrangler »
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #69 on: May 03, 2006, 06:23:28 pm »
Apparently I also have greater faith in the human capacity for denial than you do.

Maybe. But if that interpretation helps you make sense of the rest of the movie, then you definitely should go with it.

Offline starboardlight

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #70 on: May 03, 2006, 07:29:08 pm »
Starboardlight,

It's been a while since I had time to sit down and watch the DVD, so my memory of the staging of that scene in the film is hazy and I won't address the film's treatment of the conversation. If, however, you are just referring to the Annie Proulx original, then I'm afraid you have it backwards.

Here's the paragragph from the story:

"The horses nickered in the darkness beyond the fire's circle of light. Ennis put his arm around Jack, pulled him close, said he saw his girls about once a month, Alma Jr. a shy seventeen-year-old with his beanpole length, Francine a little live wire. Jack slid his cold hand between Ennis's legs, said he was worried about his boy who was, no doubt about it, dyslexic or something, couldn't get anything right, fifteen years old and couldn't hardly read, he could see it though goddamn Lureen wouldn't admit to it and pretended the kid was o.k., refused to get any bitchin kind a help about it. He didn't know what the fuck the answer was. Lureen had the money and called the shots." [Boldface added by me.]

If Jack is doing anything here besides trying to warm his hand between Ennis's thighs, then he's trying to get Ennis hard so that Ennis can fuck him. Two paragraphs later we are told "they rolled down into the dirt." So in the original story anyway, I believe this passage actually tends to support my interpretation.

But thanks for reminding me of it!


whoops. i stand corrected.  ;) i'm glad you went back and checked the text. i should have done the same. it was so vivid in my mind that it was Ennis's hand.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #71 on: May 03, 2006, 09:49:17 pm »
Hi, Starboardlight,

Quote
whoops. i stand corrected.   i'm glad you went back and checked the text. i should have done the same. it was so vivid in my mind that it was Ennis's hand.

I'm sorry if I embarrassed you. That wasn't my intention. But I thought the point was important enough to the discussion to go back to the text and check.

And I understand how vivid these impressions can be. Once I was absolutely certain that Ennis said, "I'm sorry," in the Second Tent Scene!  :)

Jeff
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline starboardlight

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #72 on: May 05, 2006, 09:06:09 pm »
Hi, Starboardlight,

I'm sorry if I embarrassed you. That wasn't my intention. But I thought the point was important enough to the discussion to go back to the text and check.

And I understand how vivid these impressions can be. Once I was absolutely certain that Ennis said, "I'm sorry," in the Second Tent Scene!  :)

Jeff

nah, no worries. i embarrassed myself by not checking the text. i'm glad you did.
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Offline mlewisusc

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #73 on: May 08, 2006, 02:21:45 am »
Posting for easy location later - but one thing to say: Ennis's "Boys like you" comment tend to support Jeff's interpretation about the kind of activity Ennis and Jack engaged in during their relationship.  Ennis sees himself as different from Jack because he "delivers" and Jack "receives" which makes Jack "queer" in Ennis's distorted view. 
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #74 on: May 08, 2006, 08:24:50 am »
Posting for easy location later - but one thing to say: Ennis's "Boys like you" comment tend to support Jeff's interpretation about the kind of activity Ennis and Jack engaged in during their relationship.  Ennis sees himself as different from Jack because he "delivers" and Jack "receives" which makes Jack "queer" in Ennis's distorted view. 

To me, that seems too specific an interpretation of an open-ended remark. It assumes more knowledge of Ennis' viewpoint than I feel like I have.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #75 on: May 08, 2006, 09:46:46 am »
To me, that seems too specific an interpretation of an open-ended remark. It assumes more knowledge of Ennis' viewpoint than I feel like I have.

I really ought to let Mark argue this one with you, Katherine ( ;) ), but I hope you might come back and explain a bit more about what you mean by "It assumes more knowledge of Ennis's viewpoint." I'm not clear on your meaning here.

I haven't found Ennis's comment to be open-ended at all. On the contrary, to me it's very specific, in light of my understanding, from interpreting the evidence as I see it. Of course we don't know specifically what Ennis has heard that they have in Mexico for "boys" like Jack. But my interpretation is that Ennis knows that Jack likes to get fucked (because that's what he and Jack do), and he's heard that "boys like Jack" can get fucked in Mexico. And calling Jack a "boy" is a definite disparagement in this context, coming out of Ennis's anger. Jack is a "boy" because getting fucked is for "boys"--not men--and Jack likes to get fucked.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #76 on: May 08, 2006, 12:05:23 pm »
Well, this is either the exact thing or pretty close to the thing that you and I have argued about before, Jeff. And as I recall, I lost the last time. But what the hell, I'm always up for an argument.

I do agree with this:

And calling Jack a "boy" is a definite disparagement in this context, coming out of Ennis's anger.

Ennis is angry, and "boy" is disparaging, and "boys like you" (as opposed to "us") can be read as distinguishing Jack from Ennis in some way.

But I am still reluctant to go along with the idea that Ennis is consciously speaking in code, that boy and man refer to sexual positions, that Ennis equates receiving with queerness but does not attach a stigma to delivering. Of course you know much more about gay culture than I do, and if someone you know in real life said something like that perhaps the meaning would be clear to everybody. But you also know much more about it than Ennis does. He knows basically nothing outside of his private experiences with Jack (that he even has heard what they have in Mexico stretches credulity a bit).

Jeff, I remember your pointing out the larger, male-culture stigma about "receiving," and I get that. But if you ask me, Ennis considers himself to have crossed a pretty big line from the get-go. If he's willing to go there, who knows what else he might do. Or at least think. So what Ennis thinks about their relationship, to what extent he considers his and Jack's sexuality different -- all those issues are hazier to me than they are to you guys. Partly for the obvious reasons, I guess, but also partly because you're making what I consider an interpretive leap. In my mind, Ennis is sort of feeling his way along in the relationship, not being guided by any external norms but just by whatever unfolds between them, trying not to think too much about what it all implies.

Also, if I understand correctly, your interpretation suggests that Ennis feels a certain amount of contempt for Jack (Jack is a "boy," Ennis is a "man," Jack is "queer," Ennis prides himself on not being), and aside from this one remark I see no other sign anywhere in the movie that he does.

Now I steel myself for the reply that I couldn't possibly know anything about this. And it's true that my knowledge is inevitably limited. But Jeff, I also think your interpretation is colored by the way you see the whole scene (Mark, I don't know how you feel about this): that Ennis' breakdown is triggered by having to confront the truth about his sexuality. In that context, your reading of that line makes sense; Ennis' threat is a desperate attempt to separate himself from Jack in that respect. And I'm not saying that interpretation is "wrong" -- obviously it works for you.

But if you see the scene the way I do, which is that Ennis breaks down because he's afraid of losing Jack and can no longer stand the strain their relationship puts on him, then the Mexico remark becomes less significant. It's Ennis lashing angrily out at Jack because that's what Ennis does when he gets upset. And also to deflect the blame for canceling the August trip.

Sorry to yammer on. I told myself a few days ago I was going to start keeping my posts more brief, and until now I was doing pretty well with it.


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #77 on: May 08, 2006, 01:05:03 pm »
Hey, Katherine,

Well, we have beaten a lot of this at least to a stand-still if not to death, and I'm not going to rehearse that again. I certainly did't consider that I had "won" and you had "lost" anything, just that we had expressed our respective opinions to the stand-still and had to agree to disagree because we're both sticking to our stories.

There certainly is contempt in the "boys like you" comment, but Ennis is clearly very angry, I don't for a minute believe he's really contemptuous of Jack, but it's quite possible that in his anger he's projecting some of his own internally-homophobic self-contempt onto poor Jack.

Quote
(that he even has heard what they have in Mexico stretches credulity a bit).

Well, but nevertheless he has heard it. We have to accept it because it's a given of the plot. I personally don't find it a "credulity-stretcher" because men do talk, make off-color jokes--and reinforce their own self-concept as "straight" by all kinds of homophobic jokes and remarks. Ennis has lived his whole life among the aggressive macho types who do this sort of thing. It's immature in my way of thinking, but then I'm an overly educated effete urban Northeastern homosexual.  ;D What stretches my credulity is that Jack's passion could endure twenty years the way it does (see my comments on the "Would you have lasted 20 years" thread), but that's another given of the plot, that it has.

Of course I'm making "an interpretive leap," but don't you think we all are, that anyone who even bothers trying to interpret this movie takes a leap of some kind at some point? The question is just where or over what issues we take the leap. You and I just take different leaps.

Quote
But if you see the scene the way I do, which is that Ennis breaks down because he's afraid of losing Jack and can no longer stand the strain their relationship puts on him, then the Mexico remark becomes less significant. It's Ennis lashing angrily out at Jack because that's what Ennis does when he gets upset. And also to deflect the blame for canceling the August trip.

I think I have said elsewhere that I don't dispute or disagree with these points--at least, I tried to convey that somewhere further up the line here. I just see this whole confrontation, and what is going on inside Ennis, as more complex than you do. Yes, he's afraid of losing Jack and yes, he can't stand the strain any longer, but that's not all that's going on here. But I think I've said all I have to say on that subject. This is where we take the different leaps. You clearly see what is going on inside Ennis in this scene as simpler than I do.

Oddly enough, perhaps, I could buy into your intrepretation here with respect to the Ennis of the original story, who clearly is more in touch with his feelings, more self-aware, than the Ennis we are presented with in the film--at least as I see it.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #78 on: May 08, 2006, 01:43:20 pm »
Jeff, I agree with most of what you said here. And it's true we will never come to a concensus, but oh well. I still enjoy debating. Don't take offense at my won/lost remark, but as I recall, last time I eventually conceded on the questions surrounding delivering and receiving, admitting that they're outside my area of expertise.

The one thing I don't agree with is your characterizing my version of Ennis' thoughts during the scene as "simpler." I think of them as pretty complex, and I would even admit that there is an element of what you think is the main thing. And you admit there's an element of what I think. So perhaps we actually almost agree, but just place the emphasis differently.

So if you're sick of this one, please help me think of another issue to argue about.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #79 on: May 08, 2006, 02:50:18 pm »
Jeff, I agree with most of what you said here. And it's true we will never come to a concensus, but oh well. I still enjoy debating. Don't take offense at my won/lost remark, but as I recall, last time I eventually conceded on the questions surrounding delivering and receiving, admitting that they're outside my area of expertise.

The one thing I don't agree with is your characterizing my version of Ennis' thoughts during the scene as "simpler." I think of them as pretty complex, and I would even admit that there is an element of what you think is the main thing. And you admit there's an element of what I think. So perhaps we actually almost agree, but just place the emphasis differently.

So if you're sick of this one, please help me think of another issue to argue about.


Oh, none taken, I was just concerned. I just felt that we've both stated our views about as fully as we can and hated to think that you felt you'd "lost" and I'd "won."

Maybe we are just disagreeing over emphasis from different perspectives. As to something else to debate, I'll have to get back to you on that!  :)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #80 on: May 08, 2006, 02:55:07 pm »
Thanks for the reassurance. And I will be always be happy to argue with you on almost anything!

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #81 on: May 08, 2006, 11:04:40 pm »
While the thread of discussion has unravelled into another tangental thread at the other end of the story, I will make a coment about "boys like you."

I think the screenplay writers misunderstood what Annie Proulx meant in the following excerpt from the printed story.

Quote
And why's it we're always in the friggin cold weather? We ought a do somethin. We ought a go south. We ought a go to Mexico one day."
   "Mexico? Jack, you know me. All the travelin I ever done is goin around the coffeepot lookin for the handle. And I'll be runnin the baler all August, that's what's the matter

with August. Lighten up, Jack. We can hunt in November, kill a nice elk. Try if I can get Don Wroe's cabin again. We had a good time that year."
   "You know, friend, this is a goddamn bitch of a unsatisfactory situation. You used a come away easy. It's like seein the pope now."
   "Jack, I got a work. Them earlier days I used a quit the jobs. You got a wife with money, a good job. You forget how it is bein broke all the time. You ever hear a child

support? I been payin out for years and got more to go. Let me tell you, I can't quit this one. And I can't get the time off. It was tough gettin this time -- some a them late heifers is still calvin. You don't leave then.

You don't. Stoutamire is a hell-raiser and he raised hell about me takin the week. I don't blame him. He probly ain't got a night's sleep since I left. The trade-off was August.

You got a better idea?"
   "I did once." The tone was bitter and accusatory.
   Ennis said nothing, straightened up slowly, rubbed at his forehead; a horse stamped inside the trailer. He walked to his truck, put his hand on the trailer, said something

that only the horses could hear, turned and walked back at a deliberate pace.
   "You been a Mexico, Jack?" Mexico was the place. He'd heard. He was cutting fence now, trespassing in the shoot-em zone.

The "Mexico was the place. He'd heard." to me refers not to a place where a guy could get "queer" sex easily; but a place where a "queer" could get killed for being one.

Offline starboardlight

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #82 on: May 09, 2006, 01:13:17 am »
But if you see the scene the way I do, which is that Ennis breaks down because he's afraid of losing Jack and can no longer stand the strain their relationship puts on him, then the Mexico remark becomes less significant. It's Ennis lashing angrily out at Jack because that's what Ennis does when he gets upset. And

I'm with you here Katherine. To me, I think Ennis, at this point, has accepted that he's queer. The evidence is in his conversation with Jack by the river as he's washing dishes. "You ever get the feeling when you're in town, ... like they know." If he thought of himself as being straight, there wouldn't be anything to know. To me, he clearly sees himself as being queer. That's not to say that maybe he didn't rationalized varying degrees of queerness, and that Jack was a worse kind than he in his remark "boys like you." Still, to me, when he breaks down in Jack's arm, it's not about confronting his queer self, but about his not being able to envision a place for them to be together and from finally realizing that he might actually lose Jack because of it.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #83 on: May 09, 2006, 09:11:35 am »
I'm with you here Katherine. To me, I think Ennis, at this point, has accepted that he's queer. The evidence is in his conversation with Jack by the river as he's washing dishes. "You ever get the feeling when you're in town, ... like they know." If he thought of himself as being straight, there wouldn't be anything to know. To me, he clearly sees himself as being queer. That's not to say that maybe he didn't rationalized varying degrees of queerness, and that Jack was a worse kind than he in his remark "boys like you." Still, to me, when he breaks down in Jack's arm, it's not about confronting his queer self, but about his not being able to envision a place for them to be together and from finally realizing that he might actually lose Jack because of it.

Well put as usual, starboardlight. I think the "you ever get the feeling" scene (was going to call it the dishwashing scene but there are a bunch of those) is more evidence that Ennis has come to understand his sexuality. I don't know if I'd call it out-and-out acceptance yet; even by the lake scene he may still be sort of grappling with the knowledge. But by the time he goes to the Twist ranch he has fully accepted it. Your description of his feelings at the lake -- "not being able to envision a place for them to be together" -- is excellent. He's not so much refusing to consider it, he just can't see it. He can't stand it, but he literally doesn't know how to fix it.

BTW, I like your new avatar.


Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #84 on: May 09, 2006, 09:50:02 am »
I agree with you, TJ, about the reference to Mexico as the place where "boys like you" could get killed. It makes better sense in the context of the dialogue. BTW, OT, but has anyone read Cormac McCarthy's books such as "All the Pretty Horses" etc. I've read all of them except Blood Meridien, don't think I could take that one. Excellent books--the movie didn't do justice. Partly because of Matt Damon, he just doesn't do anything for me. Heath would have been great in that role.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #85 on: May 09, 2006, 09:56:40 am »
Partly because of Matt Damon, he just doesn't do anything for me. Heath would have been great in that role.

This is WAY OT, sorry, but when I saw "The Brothers Grimm" I actually liked Matt better than Heath in it! What was I thinking?!? Of course, I hated the movie, so maybe that was part of the problem.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #86 on: May 09, 2006, 11:50:29 am »
I agree with you, TJ, about the reference to Mexico as the place where "boys like you" could get killed. It makes better sense in the context of the dialogue.

Sorry, but I disagree. The point of the immediately following words about Ennis "cutting fences" and "trespassing in the shoot-em zone" is clearly that he's getting into the subject of having sex with other men. That's what he's heard that "boys like Jack" can get in Mexico.

That's not to deny that it was, indeed, dangerous for Jack to go to Mexico to have sex with male hustlers, but I don't believe that's what Ennis is talking about.
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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #87 on: May 09, 2006, 04:59:21 pm »
I would make a suggestion that members reading in this thread go up to look at what I quoted from Annie Proulx's story.

Look where it says Mexico was the place. He'd heard..

Then after Jack "claims" that he had been to Mexico, look at what Ennis said in response.

 "I got a say this to you one time, Jack, and I ain't foolin. What I don't know," said Ennis, "all them things I don't know could get you killed if I should come to know them."

Because of Ennis's words, I see that he was not referring to a place for "boys like you;" he was talking about how dangerous it would be for a "queer" to go to Mexico. Ennis didn't always say exactly what he meant. (Up on Brokeback when he was going to sleep by the campfire because he was dizzy drunk, he said "Got you an extra blanket" when he meant "Have you got an extra blanket?")

He was not threatening to kill Jack if he found out what Jack had been doing with guys when they were apart; he was afraid that by the time he found out if Jack had been doing those things, Jack would have already been killed. When Ennis got upset, he did not always express himself very well.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #88 on: May 09, 2006, 10:48:35 pm »
I would make a suggestion that members reading in this thread go up to look at what I quoted from Annie Proulx's story.

Look where it says Mexico was the place. He'd heard..

Then after Jack "claims" that he had been to Mexico, look at what Ennis said in response.

 "I got a say this to you one time, Jack, and I ain't foolin. What I don't know," said Ennis, "all them things I don't know could get you killed if I should come to know them."

Because of Ennis's words, I see that he was not referring to a place for "boys like you;" he was talking about how dangerous it would be for a "queer" to go to Mexico. Ennis didn't always say exactly what he meant. (Up on Brokeback when he was going to sleep by the campfire because he was dizzy drunk, he said "Got you an extra blanket" when he meant "Have you got an extra blanket?")

He was not threatening to kill Jack if he found out what Jack had been doing with guys when they were apart; he was afraid that by the time he found out if Jack had been doing those things, Jack would have already been killed. When Ennis got upset, he did not always express himself very well.

Sorry, but, "Hunh?"

How can all those things that Ennis doesn't know get Jack killed if Ennis comes to know them, unless Ennis is the one threatening to kill Jack?

No disrespect to your opinon intended, but I think you're missing the significance of that "if I should come to know them."
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #89 on: May 09, 2006, 11:29:08 pm »
How can all those things that Ennis doesn't know get Jack killed if Ennis comes to know them, unless Ennis is the one threatening to kill Jack?

I agree Jeff, this was my biggest problem with the "Ennis is just lashing out because he was afraid of losing Jack" argument.  He probably was of course, but the "might get you killed if I come to know them" line always made me feel that Ennis still considered himself "not queer", and the revelation for Ennis is that Jack "is queer" because he goes to Mexico.  I love Katherine's interpretation because it give more depth to the scene, but I still see the outburst as centred around exposed homophobia and denial.  Now when Jack challenges him back and Ennis breaks down, then I think we can entertain the idea that Ennis feared losing Jack, but even then, I think he's more worried about his own feeling of being "nothing and no-where", and it's because of Jack that he is that way.
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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #90 on: May 09, 2006, 11:47:32 pm »
I spent one year tour of duty in Vietnam and I worked as a clerk-typist and also a bailiff for courts-martials in the Staff Judge Advocate Section with Army Lawyers as my bosses. In the US military what Ennis said could have been understood that Ennis threatened to kill Jack.

But, in the US civilian courts, what Ennis said in what I quoted was not even considered a threat to kill Jack at all. That's because Ennis did not say "What I don't know, all them things I don't know, I will kill you if I should come to know them."

Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #91 on: May 10, 2006, 12:48:39 am »
Now when Jack challenges him back and Ennis breaks down, then I think we can entertain the idea that Ennis feared losing Jack, but even then, I think he's more worried about his own feeling of being "nothing and no-where", and it's because of Jack that he is that way.

Thanks for your nice support of my interpretation, Chris! Even if it's partial. Here's my take on the "nothin and nowhere" line: He doesn't mean it. That is, he doesn't mean it literally -- you have to read between the lines to get his real meaning. That is, "Why don't you then? Why don't you let me be (even though I'd be miserable)? It's because of (the fact that I'm in love with) you I'm like this. I'm nothing, nowhere (poor because of my years of quitting jobs to be with you, divorced because I couldn't love my wife, dating another woman but without any enthusiam -- but worst of all, stuck in an impossible situation that can't be fixed and so ...) I can't stand it no more, Jack."

I can imagine that from your perspectives, Chris and Jeff, that this reading seems to assume a lot. But I'm convinced that's basically what he means. You can never take things at face value with Ennis -- a guy who expresses love with a punch.


Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #92 on: May 10, 2006, 12:52:48 am »
I spent one year tour of duty in Vietnam and I worked as a clerk-typist and also a bailiff for courts-martials in the Staff Judge Advocate Section with Army Lawyers as my bosses. In the US military what Ennis said could have been understood that Ennis threatened to kill Jack.

But, in the US civilian courts, what Ennis said in what I quoted was not even considered a threat to kill Jack at all. That's because Ennis did not say "What I don't know, all them things I don't know, I will kill you if I should come to know them."

Huh?  I am really struggling to understand you TJ.  So this is what Ennis actually said:

     "What I don't know, all them things I don't know, could get you killed if I come to know them".

and you're saying that because he didn't say:

     "What I don't know, all them things I don't know, I will kill you if I should come to know them."

means that he wasn't actually threatening him, unless he was in the military?!?!
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

TJ

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #93 on: May 10, 2006, 01:25:25 am »
Huh?  I am really struggling to understand you TJ.  So this is what Ennis actually said:

     "What I don't know, all them things I don't know, could get you killed if I come to know them".

and you're saying that because he didn't say:

     "What I don't know, all them things I don't know, I will kill you if I should come to know them."

means that he wasn't actually threatening him, unless he was in the military?!?!

No, I am making the comparison here because Ennis did not literally say that he would kill Jack if he found out certain things as a direct threat. He was saying that Jack's life could be threatened if he did certain things and someone else killed him for doing them. That's also why Ennis assumed that Jack was killed with "the tire iron" when Lureen coldly told Ennis what happened on the phone and why he also assumed it when he heard Mr. Twist make a reference about that (unnamed) rancher friend of Jack's in Texas.

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #94 on: May 10, 2006, 01:30:46 am »
Thanks for your nice support of my interpretation, Chris! Even if it's partial. Here's my take on the "nothin and nowhere" line: He doesn't mean it. That is, he doesn't mean it literally -- you have to read between the lines to get his real meaning. That is, "Why don't you then? Why don't you let me be (even though I'd be miserable)? It's because of (the fact that I'm in love with) you I'm like this. I'm nothing, nowhere (poor because of my years of quitting jobs to be with you, divorced because I couldn't love my wife, dating another woman but without any enthusiam -- but worst of all, stuck in an impossible situation that can't be fixed and so ...) I can't stand it no more, Jack."

I really like the idea of this Katherine.  You could have a field day filling in the blanks in Ennis' dialogue couldn't you?  As for your expanded dialogue here, actually I'm pretty happy with it.  The "I'm like this because I love you" idea challenges me, but only because I see Ennis is blaming Jack for his situation in this scene.  In my way of viewing it, you could also say: "It's because of you (making me this way that) I'm like this.  I'm nothing, nowhere (because of my weekness and shame that I've lost everything).

Of course, any "expansion" to the dialogue is more about the emotion being conveyed than about unspoken words themselves, and the interpretation relies on the emotion you feel when watching it.  My romantic side wants Ennis to mean "I love you", so that part of me agrees with the sentiment.  On the other hand, Ennis does get angry a lot, so there's resentment in there as strong as any feeling of love.
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #95 on: May 10, 2006, 01:43:52 am »
No, I am making the comparison here because Ennis did not literally say that he would kill Jack if he found out certain things as a direct threat. He was saying that Jack's life could be threatened if he did certain things and someone else killed him for doing them. That's also why Ennis assumed that Jack was killed with "the tire iron" when Lureen coldly told Ennis what happened on the phone and why he also assumed it when he heard Mr. Twist make a reference about that (unnamed) rancher friend of Jack's in Texas.

Nope, sorry, I still don't get this.  I do think he literally said it when he said: "could get you killed if **I** come to know them".  If this is not Ennis being directly threatening to Jack then what is it?  Is he saying he going to tell someone else who might kill him???  Of course it's ok to say that Ennis wouldn't have actually gone through with it or even hurt Jack (I believe that too), but that's not the point - a threat is a threat.
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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #96 on: May 10, 2006, 03:05:54 am »
Nope, sorry, I still don't get this.  I do think he literally said it when he said: "could get you killed if **I** come to know them".  If this is not Ennis being directly threatening to Jack then what is it?  Is he saying he going to tell someone else who might kill him???  Of course it's ok to say that Ennis wouldn't have actually gone through with it or even hurt Jack (I believe that too), but that's not the point - a threat is a threat.

Chris, "What we have here is a failure to communicate." I believe I heard or read that somewhere.

Here in the USA, I have actually heard people talk the way that Annie Proulx's Ennis Del Mar talks. I have heard rural folks in several states talk the way that Ennis, Jack, and some of the other characters in her short story talk.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #97 on: May 10, 2006, 09:10:46 am »
Thanks for your nice support of my interpretation, Chris! Even if it's partial. Here's my take on the "nothin and nowhere" line: He doesn't mean it. That is, he doesn't mean it literally -- you have to read between the lines to get his real meaning. That is, "Why don't you then? Why don't you let me be (even though I'd be miserable)? It's because of (the fact that I'm in love with) you I'm like this. I'm nothing, nowhere (poor because of my years of quitting jobs to be with you, divorced because I couldn't love my wife, dating another woman but without any enthusiam -- but worst of all, stuck in an impossible situation that can't be fixed and so ...) I can't stand it no more, Jack."

I can imagine that from your perspectives, Chris and Jeff, that this reading seems to assume a lot. But I'm convinced that's basically what he means. You can never take things at face value with Ennis -- a guy who expresses love with a punch.

Surprise! I think you're reading between the lines here is dead-on correct, Katherine. Nothing there that I'd find fault with. I've just always felt that there is an awful lot going on inside poor Ennis in this scene, and no one thing accounts for all of it. His internalized homophobia, his fear of losing Jack--it's all there. No wonder he cracks under the strain.

(I might say more, but I've got to run to a meeting!)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #98 on: May 10, 2006, 09:26:21 am »
Surprise! I think you're reading between the lines here is dead-on correct, Katherine. Nothing there that I'd find fault with. I've just always felt that there is an awful lot going on inside poor Ennis in this scene, and no one thing accounts for all of it. His internalized homophobia, his fear of losing Jack--it's all there. No wonder he cracks under the strain.

(I might say more, but I've got to run to a meeting!)

Well, get back from that meeting and elaborate, Jeff! I am so pleasantly amazed that you are agreeing with me I want to draw out the moment.

And Chris, thanks for your semi-agreement!

I've said this before, so you guys are probably sick of hearing it, but IMO the music and camera work and body language underscore the romantic interpretation. Throughout Jack's speech, Ennis has either had his head bowed and back turned, or been out of camera range. Then when Jack is finished and we finally see him again, he has been crying and then, just after he starts talking, the music swings into full dramatic sad-melody mode. To me, this supports a romantic "I can't stand the thought of losing you" over a grim "I can't stand facing up to my sexuality."



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #99 on: May 10, 2006, 01:43:58 pm »
Well, get back from that meeting and elaborate, Jeff! I am so pleasantly amazed that you are agreeing with me I want to draw out the moment.

Actually, there really isn't anything more for me to say than what I've already said ad infinitum (or is it ad nauseam?). The implied threat in Jack's "wish I knew how to quit you" line may trigger Ennis's collapse, but Ennis's response is out of proportion to Jack's comment in and of itself and is accounted for by the release of everything he's been suppressing and denying for twenty years, including but not limited to his love for Jack, as a result of his internalized homophobia. To attribute his collapse solely to his fear of losing Jack, which certainly is one factor, or to any one cause or reason, or even to try to assign one most important cause or reason, does a disservice to the film, to the writing, and to Ennis.

Paradoxically, fear of losing Jack may play a larger role in the collapse of Ennis in the story, who is not as complex or as repressed a character as Ennis in the movie (he's perfectly conscious that Jack is the love of his life, and has been conscious of it since about 1964, but he just won't act on it), but I don't think it's the single cause of the collapse in the story either.

"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #100 on: May 10, 2006, 02:15:59 pm »
To attribute his collapse solely to his fear of losing Jack, which certainly is one factor, or to any one cause or reason, or even to try to assign one most important cause or reason, does a disservice to the film, to the writing, and to Ennis.

Hunh??  People behave the way they do for any number of reasons, but one is often more important than others. Theorizing about those reasons and their relative importance -- in this situation, and all other situations in the movie where motivations are ambiguous -- seems to me to be the whole point of spending 10 hours a day on these boards. Of course there are no single "right" answers, and the possibilities may be complex and intertwined, but I hardly think it's a disservice to anyone to analyze them and try to form individual interpretations. I think those involved in creating the story and movie left them open-ended because they WANT us to do that (though they probably didn't predict we'd spend quite THIS much time on it).

Besides, I wasn't asking you to go through your entire interpretation of this scene one more time. I was just surprised that you agreed with me for a change.
 :)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2006, 02:21:30 pm by latjoreme »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #101 on: May 10, 2006, 02:39:54 pm »
Besides, I wasn't asking you to go through your entire interpretation of this scene one more time. I was just surprised that you agreed with me for a change.
 :)


No, but you did ask me to write more, and then I realized that I had nothing more to say than what I had already said at least twice already, and I was even getting tired of myself.

I see I was sharper than I intended to be, and I apologize for that, yet I do feel that trying to settle on one single reason or even a most important reason for Ennis's response is a disservice to a complex character in a complex situation, and I'm not apologizing for that position.

But what is the point, anyway, of trying identify the most important or a more important reason for something if one is prepared to accept or admit that there is more than one reason? Trying to assign relative importance is, to me, a pointless exercise. Why do you feel it is important?
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #102 on: May 10, 2006, 03:08:40 pm »
I don't know. Why DO I feel it's important to spend countless hours picking apart the behavior of characters in a movie? There are probably any number of intertwined reasons -- I like to write, it's an escape from "reality," I get bored and lonely at home working and need the distraction, you guys have interesting things to say -- but I guess the MOST IMPORTANT reason is that I love the movie. Without that, none of the others would matter.

As for this case, I just think people tend to behave more for one reason than another, and that in highly emotional situations, one emotion tends to predominate. Whatever is going through Ennis' fictional mind at this moment, I don't imagine him considering numerous factors of equal weight. I guess I can only speak for myself, but when I collapse in despair, one trauma is usually foremost in my mind, even if more than one, at some level, contribute to my angst.

As for why I encouraged you to elaborate, it was in response to this:

(I might say more, but I've got to run to a meeting!)

I was curious about what more you might say if you had time. If you actually DON'T have more to say, that's OK.

In any case, you're right, Ennis is a complex character in a complex situation. How bout we agree on that and leave it at that?
 :)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2006, 03:24:56 pm by latjoreme »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #103 on: May 10, 2006, 04:24:25 pm »
I don't know. Why DO I feel it's important to spend countless hours picking apart the behavior of characters in a movie? There are probably any number of intertwined reasons -- I like to write, it's an escape from "reality," I get bored and lonely at home working and need the distraction, you guys have interesting things to say -- but I guess the MOST IMPORTANT reason is that I love the movie. Without that, none of the others would matter.

As for this case, I just think people tend to behave more for one reason than another, and that in highly emotional situations, one emotion tends to predominate. Whatever is going through Ennis' fictional mind at this moment, I don't imagine him considering numerous factors of equal weight. I guess I can only speak for myself, but when I collapse in despair, one trauma is usually foremost in my mind, even if more than one, at some level, contribute to my angst.

As for why I encouraged you to elaborate, it was in response to this:

I was curious about what more you might say if you had time. If you actually DON'T have more to say, that's OK.

In any case, you're right, Ennis is a complex character in a complex situation. How bout we agree on that and leave it at that?
 :)

I understood why you wanted me to write more. When I had time to think about it, I just realized I didn't have anything more to say than what I'd already said.

It's looking to me that what we have here are two different views of the world, and of people. Of course Ennis doesn't stop and think about why he's reacting,. He just reacts. And I'm prepared to admit there is a trigger involved here--Jack's implicit threat. What I'm not prepared to agree with is that there is only one reason, or even one most important reason, that he collapses because I don't see people and the world that way. On the other hand, if your "most important reason" is my "trigger" then maybe we're just arguing semantics, as I think you yourself suggested somewhere back up the line here.

If you'll forgive an analogy from my own life, the worst "collapse" I've ever personally experienced was at my boyfriend's funeral. I sobbed on the shoulders of a friend like I'd never cried in my entire life, not even at my mother's funeral. The funeral--my boyfriend's death--may have triggered my reaction, but even here, there was also fear involved because my boyfriend died of AIDS (as it happened he didn't give it to me), and I'm just not prepared to assign a more or most important cause to my own reaction. I feel it's pointless.

But I do find it interesting to try to parse out the several reasons, or causes, for what happens, and in Ennis's case to try to account for the vehemence of his reaction. And it's certainly true that if we didn't love the move we wouldn't be here. It would be just too weird otherwise.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #104 on: May 10, 2006, 05:28:39 pm »
I understood why you wanted me to write more. When I had time to think about it, I just realized I didn't have anything more to say than what I'd already said.

It's looking to me that what we have here are two different views of the world, and of people. Of course Ennis doesn't stop and think about why he's reacting,. He just reacts. And I'm prepared to admit there is a trigger involved here--Jack's implicit threat. What I'm not prepared to agree with is that there is only one reason, or even one most important reason, that he collapses because I don't see people and the world that way. On the other hand, if your "most important reason" is my "trigger" then maybe we're just arguing semantics, as I think you yourself suggested somewhere back up the line here.

If you'll forgive an analogy from my own life, the worst "collapse" I've ever personally experienced was at my boyfriend's funeral. I sobbed on the shoulders of a friend like I'd never cried in my entire life, not even at my mother's funeral. The funeral--my boyfriend's death--may have triggered my reaction, but even here, there was also fear involved because my boyfriend died of AIDS (as it happened he didn't give it to me), and I'm just not prepared to assign a more or most important cause to my own reaction. I feel it's pointless.

But I do find it interesting to try to parse out the several reasons, or causes, for what happens, and in Ennis's case to try to account for the vehemence of his reaction. And it's certainly true that if we didn't love the move we wouldn't be here. It would be just too weird otherwise.

Yeah, and it's weird enough as it is!

Another reason, I realized later, that I find it worthwhile to think in terms of a most important reason for Ennis' breakdown is that I see it, coming as it does at the climax of one of the movie's "most important" scenes, as closely connected to fairly central questions surrounding the meaning of the movie.  For example, if you believe Ennis has recognized his love for Jack all along -- as I do and, judging from past posts, you don't -- then the threat of losing that love may be a more important reason. And if you think it's possible that Ennis already is starting to recognize, if not fully accept, the nature of his own sexuality, then homophobia is less important.

I would never deny Ennis' homophobia, though, or try to oversimplify his character. It's all swirled together, all right. The complexity of characterization makes the movie rich and compelling and makes Ennis and Jack so real.

And not to resurrect a debate, in any case. I accept that you and I and others have different macro-interpretations -- no doubt influenced, as you say, by our different views of human nature and life experiences.

I'm really sorry about your boyfriend, Jeff.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #105 on: May 10, 2006, 05:56:20 pm »
Yeah, and it's weird enough as it is!

Another reason, I realized later, that I find it worthwhile to think in terms of a most important reason for Ennis' breakdown is that I see it, coming as it does at the climax of one of the movie's "most important" scenes, as closely connected to fairly central questions surrounding the meaning of the movie.  For example, if you believe Ennis has recognized his love for Jack all along -- as I do and, judging from past posts, you don't -- then the threat of losing that love may be a more important reason. And if you think it's possible that Ennis already is starting to recognize, if not fully accept, the nature of his own sexuality, then homophobia is less important.

I would never deny Ennis' homophobia, though, or try to oversimplify his character. It's all swirled together, all right. The complexity of characterization makes the movie rich and compelling and makes Ennis and Jack so real.

And not to resurrect a debate, in any case. I accept that you and I and others have different macro-interpretations -- no doubt influenced, as you say, by our different views of human nature and life experiences.

I'm really sorry about your boyfriend, Jeff.

At least there's no question that the confrontation at the lake is the emotional climax of the film is the confrontation. (OK, somebody is sure to argue that the "emotional climax" is Ennis in the closet, but I'm not going to go there.)

"Macro-interpretation": I like that!

And thanks about my boyfriend. His family's loss was worse than mine. He was helping his mother and father raise his sister's two little boys. He was a good kid, he just hadn't been very careful about his health.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #106 on: May 11, 2006, 12:54:57 am »
Jeff, I was just browsing around on imdb -- I hardly ever go there anymore -- found a couple of particularly insightful and articulate posters, and checked out a few of their previous posts. I noticed a thread from not too long ago in which they were passionately arguing about the meaning of the the lake scene and what most upsets Ennis. And they were split into two camps: One arguing that it was more about Ennis confronting his sexuality, the other that it was more about his fear of losing Jack!

For the record, both made some very good points.


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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #107 on: May 11, 2006, 02:24:16 am »
In this tangental discussion, WE (me, too) have gotten way OT here. But, I believe that Ennis was actually afraid that if Jack happened to go to Mexico, he would get killed because he was queer. I posted in another discussion thread that what Ennis had really heard about Mexico is that they killed queers down there, too.

I was somewhat shocked when the Movie Ennis said, "Boys like you," to Jack.

In the other thread on BetterMost here, I stated that FATHER Del Mar might have said what Ennis had heard about Mexico and he might have heard it when he was around 9 years old, too. A real daddy would not have taken a 9 year old boy and his 12 year old brother to see the mutilated body of a man who had been beaten with a tire iron. That's as bad as the KKK fathers taking their sons to see black men bodies which were killed the same way. 

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #108 on: May 11, 2006, 04:10:25 am »
Jeff, I was just browsing around on imdb -- I hardly ever go there anymore -- found a couple of particularly insightful and articulate posters, and checked out a few of their previous posts. I noticed a thread from not too long ago in which they were passionately arguing about the meaning of the the lake scene and what most upsets Ennis. And they were split into two camps: One arguing that it was more about Ennis confronting his sexuality, the other that it was more about his fear of losing Jack!

Well it looks like Katherine and Jeff have just about covered it (and several other things) again.  I just lurked for a while, while you two thrashed this out some more.  I must say that I agree with you both, alternating my opinion like a shuttle-cock in a badmington game (it's a little disorienting).

I like this summary Katherine, that it was either homophobia or fear of losing Jack, and I think we're all happy that there was a proportion of both of these, the question is by how much.  I think I put more emphasis on the homophobia aspect simply because of having "been there and done that" myself.  My own homophobia was strong enough for me not to believe it, let alone accept it.  So when I play out my experience through that scene I see the "belief that he is not queer" being challenged, and this also explains the hostility since this is also something that I did if anyone challenged me.  I know that I can't claim to know Ennis' motivation on the basis of my life, but in my mind, to make the fear of losing Jack the predominant motivation means you have to make the homophobia less important.  And again, in my clumsy logic, if fear of loss is stronger than homophobia then I can't see how he could have a problem living with Jack.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #109 on: May 11, 2006, 09:09:13 am »
TJ, I'd say you got that right about Ennis's father. I forget where or what thread it was on, but somewhere I myself have said that today, his forcing Ennis and K.E. to look at that desecrated body--and in my not-so-humble-opinion desecrated is the only word for it--might be construed as abusive behavior.

Chris, I like your synthesis! You know, I avoided bringing it up because I thought it wasn't fair for discussion, but I do think that one aspect of the "internalized homophobia" perspective is that I think it's easier to grasp if you've been there, and I've been there, too. I know this is one factor in my "identification" with Ennis.

Katherine, I haven't been back to IMDB in a while--I lit out for Bettermost rodeo instead  :D --but I wonder how long ago was not too long ago? I'm just being curious because I argued--make that discussed  ;) --my views over at IMDb, too, but I changed my screen ID when I settled on this little cow-and-calf operation.

Maybe I should go back to IMDb--next year.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #110 on: May 11, 2006, 09:33:10 am »
Chris, thanks for your partial agreement and for sharing your personal perspective. I guess this is one of those Brokeback issues in which life experiences really influence one's interpretation.

BTW, I do think the influence is life experiences -- and probably, as Jeff says, one's view of human nature -- rather than orientation. From what I've gathered here and elsewhere, the two "sides"  of this issue can include both straight and gay people, women and men. The division might not be 50/50, but the opinions don't seem very, or at least not totally, predictable by demographics.

Hey Chris, I hope your new moderator job doesn't take up all your time and keep you from posting here and elsewhere. We would really miss you! Also, next time, don't just lurk -- please jump right in! Even though I tell myself it's not like an ordinary conversation where only one person can talk at a time, anybody can feel free to contribute whenever they want, I somehow always feel like I'm hogging the thread.

Jeff, your post came in while I was writing this. In answer to your question, I think the thread I saw actually was from the last week or two. And unless you went by clancypants, MarshallPh (or is it MartinPh?) or taj_e over there, it wasn't you.

A bit OT, but the reason I went over to imdb -- I'd been on a long hiatus myself -- is I was looking for more discussions of movie content, which are starting to dwindle a bit here. I think people here are starting to feel as if we've covered every possible aspect. I know I do. But over at imdb, there are still lively discussions going on, and although some of them are way too newbyish for me, and there are still plenty of homophobic ones, if you really look hard you can find people still making interesting and novel points. The gun one that I copied and posted here a couple of days ago is an example.

But you can't find much just scrolling down the board. The key is to find some posters who are thoughtful and insightful and articulate, then look up THEIR posts and scroll for ones with interesting subject lines. It can be a bit tedious, because sometimes their posts are only a bump or a brief comment. But when you find their longer posts, they really pay off. The posters I mention above are all good. Also, there are people there I've always liked who for some reason never made it here (eg. Banner Hill, catglith, Rontrigger, lauragigs, jschrieb), or maybe they ARE here under different names. And some people from here continue to post over there. Casey Cornelius, for example, still frequently posts there but rarely here.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #111 on: May 11, 2006, 09:50:49 am »
Jeff, your post came in while I was writing this. In answer to your question, I think the thread I saw actually was from the last week or two. And unless you went by clancypants, MarshallPh (or is it MartinPh?) or taj_e over there, it wasn't you.

But you can't find much just scrolling down the board. The key is to find some posters who are thoughtful and insightful and articulate, then look up THEIR posts and scroll for ones with interesting subject lines. It can be a bit tedious, because sometimes their posts are only a bump or a brief comment. But when you find their longer posts, they really pay off. The posters I mention above are all good. Also, there are people there I've always liked who for some reason never made it here (eg. Banner Hill, catglith, Rontrigger, lauragigs, jschrieb), or maybe they ARE here under different names. And some people from here continue to post over there. Casey Cornelius, for example, still frequently posts there but rarely here.

Nope, Clancypants and MarshallPh ain't me--but JSchreib--actually, it's "Scheib"--is. I wanted something neater than my legal name when I came here! And you are not a thread hog. You've said that before, now stop it!  :)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #112 on: May 11, 2006, 12:11:15 pm »
Nope, Clancypants and MarshallPh ain't me--but JSchreib--actually, it's "Scheib"--is. I wanted something neater than my legal name when I came here! And you are not a thread hog. You've said that before, now stop it!  :)

Well, no wonder I like jscheib! Sorry for the misspelling. I guess when I saw your name it must have been at the top of an older thread. I don't think the others I mentioned are here, and I do think they're still active there; somewhere recently I saw people here discussing their failed efforts to try to lure them over.

Anyway, I don't believe the particular post I was referring to, about the lake scene, included you. It was mainly between clancypants and taj_e. Clancy took what I would loosely describe as "your side" (meaning Jeff's and I guess Chris') and taj took "my side." But Clancy is MUCH more of a hardliner than either of you guys. My impression is that he would never agree to the kind of let's-compromise, everybody's-right, it's-a-little-of-both conclusion we have reached here (though I know that possibly we do that only because we want to move on).

Clancypants is very smart and a good writer, but he (I'm assuming it's a he) is ruthlessly unsentimental. He makes just about everybody at BetterMost seem like hopeless romantics by comparison. If anybody dares to call it a "love story," he scolds them. "If you want to watch this movie through a heart-shaped screen, fine, go ahead. But it's not a love story, people, it's a tragedy!" As if the two were mutually exclusive. I have to steel myself to read his posts -- they can be very disturbing for a romantic optimist like myself. Still, however astringent, they're bracing and well-argued. He spots subtleties and metaphors that I had never considered before, provides new interpretations of old issues. For example, he contends that Cassie's "girls don't fall in love with fun" line triggers an epiphany for Ennis about his relationship with Jack. So Clancy's posts are enlightening, but when I read them I have to search for what I would consider logical flaws -- and in my view, there are some -- or I would wind up very depressed.

Note to clancypants, in case you ever make it over here: If I've misrepresented your argument, sorry!


Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #113 on: May 11, 2006, 06:48:38 pm »
Anyway, I don't believe the particular post I was referring to, about the lake scene, included you. It was mainly between clancypants and taj_e. Clancy took what I would loosely describe as "your side" (meaning Jeff's and I guess Chris') and taj took "my side." But Clancy is MUCH more of a hardliner than either of you guys. My impression is that he would never agree to the kind of let's-compromise, everybody's-right, it's-a-little-of-both conclusion we have reached here (though I know that possibly we do that only because we want to move on).

Not me Katherine, I really do see your "side" and incorporate it into my understanding.  No one point of view could possibly appreciate every nuance of BBM, and I have found my interpretation change radically from my first viewing to today.  This could only happen if I was open to change in the first place, and it is what makes talking with you kind folks so much fun.  I live for those days when someone notices something and I say: "oh wow, that's so cool, I missed that".  I now have a much better appreciation of the romantic elements for example.

I don't know if we'll ever be able/want to move on.  I for one love this thread and see it as the most important and challenging scenes of the film.  So much is explained/exposed in these few minutes, but paradoxically ends with us wanting so much more.  And as I said, I remain open.  Still thinking of reasons why it's more about homophobia... ;)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #114 on: May 11, 2006, 08:16:54 pm »
Not me Katherine, I really do see your "side" and incorporate it into my understanding.  No one point of view could possibly appreciate every nuance of BBM, and I have found my interpretation change radically from my first viewing to today.  This could only happen if I was open to change in the first place, and it is what makes talking with you kind folks so much fun.  I live for those days when someone notices something and I say: "oh wow, that's so cool, I missed that".  I now have a much better appreciation of the romantic elements for example.

I don't know if we'll ever be able/want to move on.  I for one love this thread and see it as the most important and challenging scenes of the film.  So much is explained/exposed in these few minutes, but paradoxically ends with us wanting so much more.  And as I said, I remain open.  Still thinking of reasons why it's more about homophobia... ;)

Sorry Chris, I didn't mean to oversimplify your viewpoint. I was kind of streamlining for brevity's sake, and I lumped you and Jeff together on one "side" based on your last post and some of Jeff's earlier posts. I can imagine you both objecting, but it seemed to me that you both emphasized the "more about homophobia" aspects a TEENY-TINY bit more, and I emphasized the "more about losing Jack" aspects more, and then for the sake of peace we all agreed that it's some of both.

The people on the other thread I mentioned had not reached any peaceful compromise; they were much more purists than we are -- for them, it was either one thing or the other. Which sounds simplistic I know, but, as I said, they did make some good points.

I watched the movie today for the first time in two months. I noticed all kinds of new things, but I don't think I reached any startling new conclusions about the lake scene. I still think Ennis is mostly upset about losing Jack -- sorry to prioritize emotions, but he just looks so heartbroken. Try as I might, I can't read his anger in the Mexico threat as being about Jack's Mexico ventures indicating that Jack is gay. Then, when Jack begins his angry monologue, Ennis turns, bows his head and starts crying, I think, almost immediately. When he says "why don't you then? why don't you leave me be?" it's so sad, impliying as it does that Ennis himself has no control over the situation; if anybody's going to end the relationship, it can only be Jack.

One thing I noticed, though, that you might like: I think Ennis does reach an ephiphany in the pie scene. He's sitting there chewing pie, head down, throughout almost the whole scene. Then Cassie says "girls don't fall in love with fun." And he stops chewing, stares straight ahead, not really at Cassie (who has fled by then), but more as if lost in thought. And he maintains that expression for the rest of the scene (a few seconds). As if hearing the word "love" -- first time it's spoken in the movie -- gets him thinking in a whole new way. I guess this would support your view, Jeff, that he doesn't think of his relationship with Jack as love until the end.







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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #115 on: May 11, 2006, 08:36:17 pm »
TJ, I'd say you got that right about Ennis's father. I forget where or what thread it was on, but somewhere I myself have said that today, his forcing Ennis and K.E. to look at that desecrated body--and in my not-so-humble-opinion desecrated is the only word for it--might be construed as abusive behavior.
 

I consider all human beings holy as in consecrated for a purpose in life, or made to be sacred. I agree with your opinion, Jeff.

What Ennis's father did was child abuse and while it was not physical as such, it was both psychological and spiritual abuse.

Jesus, aka the Christ, said, "Do not fear those who can kill the body but not the soul; but, fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell." (The Greek word translated as "soul" here is "psyche." "Hell" aka "Gehenna" was a place outside of Jerusalem where rubbish and dead things were burned around the clock, 24/7 - 7/52.

One time my mother told me about that verse and she said it had to do with verbal abuse.

Ennis's father probably had not planned to do so; but, what he did was a destruction of Ennis's soul and he made the rest of Ennis's life hell because Ennis was in denial of his sexual orientation and was afraid of people finding that out.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #116 on: May 18, 2006, 10:03:54 pm »
Bump, because some things discussed in this thread are relevant to a discussion of the story motel scene over on the Open Forum board.
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #117 on: May 19, 2006, 12:10:39 pm »
Chris, I like your synthesis! You know, I avoided bringing it up because I thought it wasn't fair for discussion, but I do think that one aspect of the "internalized homophobia" perspective is that I think it's easier to grasp if you've been there, and I've been there, too. I know this is one factor in my "identification" with Ennis.
Forgive me for revisiting the debate, but I just want to point out that "internalized homophobia" doesn't necessarily mean that you can't accept being queer. There are different degrees and stages of it, having been there myself as well. There's not being able to see oneself as queer. But then one can also realize that one is queer but still be ashamed of it. For my interpretation, this is where movie Ennis is, by the time we see him at the lake side showdown. For me, his statement in an earlier scene "you ever get the feeling ... they look at you like they know?" means that he knows he's queer. Even his telling about Rich and Earl, drawing a parallel between the two old birds with Ennis and Jack, shows he understands that they're queer and would be killed for it. His sexual identity is not the part he's struggling with anymore. What he struggles with is not being able to see a place for himself and Jack in the world. It's crucial to my understanding of the scene, that his breakdown isn't about his sexual identity, but rather about finally confronting the hopelessness of not being able to really be with Jack because he can't see a place for them in the world.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2006, 12:13:41 pm by starboardlight »
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #118 on: May 19, 2006, 12:45:46 pm »
Forgive me for revisiting the debate, but I just want to point out that "internalized homophobia" doesn't necessarily mean that you can't accept being queer. There are different degrees and stages of it, having been there myself as well. There's not being able to see oneself as queer. But then one can also realize that one is queer but still be ashamed of it.

Good point, Nipith, and I couldn't agree more. I'm a little unsure where exactly he stands in his acceptance by the time of the lakeside showdown, but I think he knows it by then, even if he's still pretty uncomfortable with it. In fact, this will be controversial but I would venture that he may already know it up on Brokeback when he says "I ain't queer" -- he has noticed that he's attracted to men but denies it because, to him, that's just not acceptable. But the movie is partly about his moving toward acceptance. His trip to Jack's parents' house shows he has fully reached it.

And this

It's crucial to my understanding of the scene, that his breakdown isn't about his sexual identity, but rather about finally confronting the hopelessness of not being able to really be with Jack because he can't see a place for them in the world.

is how I feel about that scene, too. He still believes he can't fix it, but can't stand it no more, either.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #119 on: May 19, 2006, 11:56:38 pm »
But the movie is partly about his moving toward acceptance. His trip to Jack's parents' house shows he has fully reached it.

Would you like to elaborate a bit more on that last sentence, Katherine? As you know, I don't believe Ennis was fully in connection with himself until he found the shirts, but that's not my point here. But to say that Ennis's trip to Jack's parents' house shows that he has fully accepted his homosexuality seems a bit much, or at least, maybe, an oversimplification.

On the face of it, the statement appears to ignore that the widow of his best friend has asked him to make that trip to Lightning Flat to see about the disposition of his best friend's ashes in accordance with his best friend's stated wishes. Even an Ennis who was still in total and complete denial might have been expected to do that for the best friend he ever had.

OK, true, Lureen just asked him to be "in touch" with Jack's parents, she didn't literally ask him to make the trip, but I think we need to suppose that he didn't call or write first--or if he did, he didn't mention the disposition of Jack's ashes. Otherwise surely he would have been told, no, the ashes are going in the family plot, and there would have been no reason for him to make the trip, other than, perhaps to pay a condolence call on the parents of his best friend, or visit the grave if the ashes had already been interred. But that would still be something that might be expected of an Ennis who was still in total and complete denial.

So I guess in the end I have to come right out and say that I don't think the fact that Ennis made that trip to Lightning Flat proves anything in and of itself with regard to Ennis's journey to self-acceptance. Sorry.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #120 on: May 20, 2006, 01:05:21 am »
Jeff, you're a tough poster! You won't let anything slip past unchallenged. I'll have to admit I got the idea from somebody else here (I hate not being able to credit the right person, but worse to credit the wrong person, who might not even agree -- for what it's worth, it was a man). Anyway, the interpretation made so much sense that I adopted it as my own.

Here's the idea: Ennis is essentially presenting himself to Jack's parents as Jack's boyfriend. ("I'm the queer who loved your son," is how the other poster put it.) True, he doesn't come right out and say so, but both parents in fact do realize it, and it's not farfetched to think that Ennis anticipated that they might "suspect." Disposing of someone's ashes is a pretty big deal, disposing them on ground that Ennis and Jack had occupied together 20 years earlier is suggestive. Lureen got it, and in that light I think her suggestion was kind. (More motivated by wanting to offer Ennis some slight consolation than because she was concerned that Jack's wishes be carried out. Bout the ashes, I mean.) Yes, Ennis can pretend they was just good friends, but the nature of their relationship is such a subtext of the whole scene ("Tell you what, I know where Brokeback Mountain is" -- i.e., "I know Jack was gay") that I think we have to credit Ennis with recognizing and even expecting it.

It appears to me, from the way Mrs. Twist steps onto the porch with coffee already brewed, that they knew he was coming. Why the disposition of the ashes wasn't already discussed, I don't know. Maybe he just sent a card. Maybe he talked to Mrs. Twist and she didn't discourage him from coming. We're probably not meant to investigate that question closely.

The point is, going there in the first place was an uncharacteristically bold move on Ennis' part. It's the first time he has acknowledged, however implicitly, the nature of his relationship with Jack to others. He's pretty openly (albeit subtly) emotional -- with Mrs. Twist, anyway. There is eye contact between them, even before the shirts, suggesting that she gets it and that he knows she gets it. He doesn't appear to worry much about that.

So all of these things suggest that he has accepted his sexuality by then, or at least reached a heretofore unknown level of acceptance. My interpretation of the closet scene is that it has more to do a realization  about love, rather than sexuality.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2006, 07:22:22 am by latjoreme »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #121 on: May 20, 2006, 01:52:41 pm »
Thanks, Katherine, I appreciate the elaboration. Very well put, too. As for not letting things slip by, I guess that comes from being an editor and proofreader--it's my job to watch for non sequiturs.

I have to think and study more on that scene. I do agree that Jack's folks knew exactly who Ennis was when he showed up, and I'll go so far as to say that I think Jack's mother was expecting him--meaning, that the guy her son had been talking about for twenty years would show up eventually--but as to whether he was expected to show up on that day, I'm not yet decided.

Again going on my own life experience, I can't, for example, personally assign too much significance to the fact that Jack's mother had a pot of coffee brewed and a cherry cake baked--only because in that respect she reminds me of a late great-aunt of mine, my grandmother's sister, also a person of a rural background. No matter when you showed up, expected or unexpected, Aunt Esther always had a pot of coffee on the stove and a recently baked cake or pie ready.

On the other hand, it also seems likely that as cranky a cuss as Jack's father was, they didn't get many visitors.

So I need to study this one some more!
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #122 on: May 20, 2006, 02:37:33 pm »
Thanks, Jeff! I'm glad you liked the elaboration. Oh, and for the record I'll throw in one more little thing that I was reminded of by your post:

Ennis doesn't know that Jack has mentioned the ranching plans to his folks until Mr. Twist brings it up. But Ennis doesn't look the least bit uncomfortable about it -- even though everybody in the room knows what it implies, and Ennis knows they know, and also to him it's the worst taboo because of its association with Earl and Rich.

Instead of running out to beat someone up or reacting in any kind of homophobic way, Ennis actually smiles -- very faintly, because he also looks sad -- at the thought. And then his expression darkens when Mr. Twist baits him with the news of the other fella. After 39 years of concealing his emotions, he is able to reveal them.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #123 on: July 18, 2006, 06:19:08 pm »
I'm missing Katherine while she's out on her road trip, so I'm rereading some of her great posts and thought U would like to too.
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Offline Meryl

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #124 on: December 06, 2006, 12:33:55 pm »
bump
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Offline Lynne

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #125 on: January 25, 2007, 04:29:11 pm »
I really like Katharine's insight into Ennis here, shown by his visit with the Twists.  Good job.
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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #126 on: February 06, 2007, 04:46:12 am »

Clancypants is very smart and a good writer, but he (I'm assuming it's a he) is ruthlessly unsentimental.

I'm way behind the times on this thread.

GASP!  Katherine, YOU were the one who unknowingly gave Clancypants his BetterMost name?!  Whoa.   I feel as though I just found out that the walrus wasn't John OR Paul, but latjoreme.  :)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #127 on: February 06, 2007, 05:47:24 pm »
GASP!  Katherine, YOU were the one who unknowingly gave Clancypants his BetterMost name?!  Whoa.   I feel as though I just found out that the walrus wasn't John OR Paul, but latjoreme.  :)

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

It's true! And what a startling experience it was to read an introductory thread by a presumed stranger, and come upon an oblique reference to that post of mine:

Quote
I know I’ve posted a long-winded spiel on the boys’ love.  And I’m sorry if it’s been a little too analytical, but then again, I have been called “ruthlessly unsentimental.”

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #128 on: February 06, 2007, 08:31:38 pm »
If I am not mistaken, you also inspired the wonderful "Getting Hard Hit by Offhand Revelations" topic!!

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline serious crayons

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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #129 on: February 06, 2007, 08:43:09 pm »
If I am not mistaken, you also inspired the wonderful "Getting Hard Hit by Offhand Revelations" topic!!

I would say "inspired" glorifies it a bit.  ::) More like I nagged Mel to write something about the story until she acquiesced. Still, I'm happy to take any shred of credit I can get for that beautiful thread.


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Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #130 on: February 07, 2007, 10:57:18 am »
Nagging works!!
"chewing gum and duct tape"