Author Topic: what's the point of the job switch?  (Read 49515 times)

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,712
Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #110 on: May 11, 2006, 09:33:10 am »
Chris, thanks for your partial agreement and for sharing your personal perspective. I guess this is one of those Brokeback issues in which life experiences really influence one's interpretation.

BTW, I do think the influence is life experiences -- and probably, as Jeff says, one's view of human nature -- rather than orientation. From what I've gathered here and elsewhere, the two "sides"  of this issue can include both straight and gay people, women and men. The division might not be 50/50, but the opinions don't seem very, or at least not totally, predictable by demographics.

Hey Chris, I hope your new moderator job doesn't take up all your time and keep you from posting here and elsewhere. We would really miss you! Also, next time, don't just lurk -- please jump right in! Even though I tell myself it's not like an ordinary conversation where only one person can talk at a time, anybody can feel free to contribute whenever they want, I somehow always feel like I'm hogging the thread.

Jeff, your post came in while I was writing this. In answer to your question, I think the thread I saw actually was from the last week or two. And unless you went by clancypants, MarshallPh (or is it MartinPh?) or taj_e over there, it wasn't you.

A bit OT, but the reason I went over to imdb -- I'd been on a long hiatus myself -- is I was looking for more discussions of movie content, which are starting to dwindle a bit here. I think people here are starting to feel as if we've covered every possible aspect. I know I do. But over at imdb, there are still lively discussions going on, and although some of them are way too newbyish for me, and there are still plenty of homophobic ones, if you really look hard you can find people still making interesting and novel points. The gun one that I copied and posted here a couple of days ago is an example.

But you can't find much just scrolling down the board. The key is to find some posters who are thoughtful and insightful and articulate, then look up THEIR posts and scroll for ones with interesting subject lines. It can be a bit tedious, because sometimes their posts are only a bump or a brief comment. But when you find their longer posts, they really pay off. The posters I mention above are all good. Also, there are people there I've always liked who for some reason never made it here (eg. Banner Hill, catglith, Rontrigger, lauragigs, jschrieb), or maybe they ARE here under different names. And some people from here continue to post over there. Casey Cornelius, for example, still frequently posts there but rarely here.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #111 on: May 11, 2006, 09:50:49 am »
Jeff, your post came in while I was writing this. In answer to your question, I think the thread I saw actually was from the last week or two. And unless you went by clancypants, MarshallPh (or is it MartinPh?) or taj_e over there, it wasn't you.

But you can't find much just scrolling down the board. The key is to find some posters who are thoughtful and insightful and articulate, then look up THEIR posts and scroll for ones with interesting subject lines. It can be a bit tedious, because sometimes their posts are only a bump or a brief comment. But when you find their longer posts, they really pay off. The posters I mention above are all good. Also, there are people there I've always liked who for some reason never made it here (eg. Banner Hill, catglith, Rontrigger, lauragigs, jschrieb), or maybe they ARE here under different names. And some people from here continue to post over there. Casey Cornelius, for example, still frequently posts there but rarely here.

Nope, Clancypants and MarshallPh ain't me--but JSchreib--actually, it's "Scheib"--is. I wanted something neater than my legal name when I came here! And you are not a thread hog. You've said that before, now stop it!  :)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,712
Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #112 on: May 11, 2006, 12:11:15 pm »
Nope, Clancypants and MarshallPh ain't me--but JSchreib--actually, it's "Scheib"--is. I wanted something neater than my legal name when I came here! And you are not a thread hog. You've said that before, now stop it!  :)

Well, no wonder I like jscheib! Sorry for the misspelling. I guess when I saw your name it must have been at the top of an older thread. I don't think the others I mentioned are here, and I do think they're still active there; somewhere recently I saw people here discussing their failed efforts to try to lure them over.

Anyway, I don't believe the particular post I was referring to, about the lake scene, included you. It was mainly between clancypants and taj_e. Clancy took what I would loosely describe as "your side" (meaning Jeff's and I guess Chris') and taj took "my side." But Clancy is MUCH more of a hardliner than either of you guys. My impression is that he would never agree to the kind of let's-compromise, everybody's-right, it's-a-little-of-both conclusion we have reached here (though I know that possibly we do that only because we want to move on).

Clancypants is very smart and a good writer, but he (I'm assuming it's a he) is ruthlessly unsentimental. He makes just about everybody at BetterMost seem like hopeless romantics by comparison. If anybody dares to call it a "love story," he scolds them. "If you want to watch this movie through a heart-shaped screen, fine, go ahead. But it's not a love story, people, it's a tragedy!" As if the two were mutually exclusive. I have to steel myself to read his posts -- they can be very disturbing for a romantic optimist like myself. Still, however astringent, they're bracing and well-argued. He spots subtleties and metaphors that I had never considered before, provides new interpretations of old issues. For example, he contends that Cassie's "girls don't fall in love with fun" line triggers an epiphany for Ennis about his relationship with Jack. So Clancy's posts are enlightening, but when I read them I have to search for what I would consider logical flaws -- and in my view, there are some -- or I would wind up very depressed.

Note to clancypants, in case you ever make it over here: If I've misrepresented your argument, sorry!


Offline Aussie Chris

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #113 on: May 11, 2006, 06:48:38 pm »
Anyway, I don't believe the particular post I was referring to, about the lake scene, included you. It was mainly between clancypants and taj_e. Clancy took what I would loosely describe as "your side" (meaning Jeff's and I guess Chris') and taj took "my side." But Clancy is MUCH more of a hardliner than either of you guys. My impression is that he would never agree to the kind of let's-compromise, everybody's-right, it's-a-little-of-both conclusion we have reached here (though I know that possibly we do that only because we want to move on).

Not me Katherine, I really do see your "side" and incorporate it into my understanding.  No one point of view could possibly appreciate every nuance of BBM, and I have found my interpretation change radically from my first viewing to today.  This could only happen if I was open to change in the first place, and it is what makes talking with you kind folks so much fun.  I live for those days when someone notices something and I say: "oh wow, that's so cool, I missed that".  I now have a much better appreciation of the romantic elements for example.

I don't know if we'll ever be able/want to move on.  I for one love this thread and see it as the most important and challenging scenes of the film.  So much is explained/exposed in these few minutes, but paradoxically ends with us wanting so much more.  And as I said, I remain open.  Still thinking of reasons why it's more about homophobia... ;)
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,712
Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #114 on: May 11, 2006, 08:16:54 pm »
Not me Katherine, I really do see your "side" and incorporate it into my understanding.  No one point of view could possibly appreciate every nuance of BBM, and I have found my interpretation change radically from my first viewing to today.  This could only happen if I was open to change in the first place, and it is what makes talking with you kind folks so much fun.  I live for those days when someone notices something and I say: "oh wow, that's so cool, I missed that".  I now have a much better appreciation of the romantic elements for example.

I don't know if we'll ever be able/want to move on.  I for one love this thread and see it as the most important and challenging scenes of the film.  So much is explained/exposed in these few minutes, but paradoxically ends with us wanting so much more.  And as I said, I remain open.  Still thinking of reasons why it's more about homophobia... ;)

Sorry Chris, I didn't mean to oversimplify your viewpoint. I was kind of streamlining for brevity's sake, and I lumped you and Jeff together on one "side" based on your last post and some of Jeff's earlier posts. I can imagine you both objecting, but it seemed to me that you both emphasized the "more about homophobia" aspects a TEENY-TINY bit more, and I emphasized the "more about losing Jack" aspects more, and then for the sake of peace we all agreed that it's some of both.

The people on the other thread I mentioned had not reached any peaceful compromise; they were much more purists than we are -- for them, it was either one thing or the other. Which sounds simplistic I know, but, as I said, they did make some good points.

I watched the movie today for the first time in two months. I noticed all kinds of new things, but I don't think I reached any startling new conclusions about the lake scene. I still think Ennis is mostly upset about losing Jack -- sorry to prioritize emotions, but he just looks so heartbroken. Try as I might, I can't read his anger in the Mexico threat as being about Jack's Mexico ventures indicating that Jack is gay. Then, when Jack begins his angry monologue, Ennis turns, bows his head and starts crying, I think, almost immediately. When he says "why don't you then? why don't you leave me be?" it's so sad, impliying as it does that Ennis himself has no control over the situation; if anybody's going to end the relationship, it can only be Jack.

One thing I noticed, though, that you might like: I think Ennis does reach an ephiphany in the pie scene. He's sitting there chewing pie, head down, throughout almost the whole scene. Then Cassie says "girls don't fall in love with fun." And he stops chewing, stares straight ahead, not really at Cassie (who has fled by then), but more as if lost in thought. And he maintains that expression for the rest of the scene (a few seconds). As if hearing the word "love" -- first time it's spoken in the movie -- gets him thinking in a whole new way. I guess this would support your view, Jeff, that he doesn't think of his relationship with Jack as love until the end.







TJ

  • Guest
Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #115 on: May 11, 2006, 08:36:17 pm »
TJ, I'd say you got that right about Ennis's father. I forget where or what thread it was on, but somewhere I myself have said that today, his forcing Ennis and K.E. to look at that desecrated body--and in my not-so-humble-opinion desecrated is the only word for it--might be construed as abusive behavior.
 

I consider all human beings holy as in consecrated for a purpose in life, or made to be sacred. I agree with your opinion, Jeff.

What Ennis's father did was child abuse and while it was not physical as such, it was both psychological and spiritual abuse.

Jesus, aka the Christ, said, "Do not fear those who can kill the body but not the soul; but, fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell." (The Greek word translated as "soul" here is "psyche." "Hell" aka "Gehenna" was a place outside of Jerusalem where rubbish and dead things were burned around the clock, 24/7 - 7/52.

One time my mother told me about that verse and she said it had to do with verbal abuse.

Ennis's father probably had not planned to do so; but, what he did was a destruction of Ennis's soul and he made the rest of Ennis's life hell because Ennis was in denial of his sexual orientation and was afraid of people finding that out.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #116 on: May 18, 2006, 10:03:54 pm »
Bump, because some things discussed in this thread are relevant to a discussion of the story motel scene over on the Open Forum board.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline starboardlight

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,127
    • nipith.com
Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #117 on: May 19, 2006, 12:10:39 pm »
Chris, I like your synthesis! You know, I avoided bringing it up because I thought it wasn't fair for discussion, but I do think that one aspect of the "internalized homophobia" perspective is that I think it's easier to grasp if you've been there, and I've been there, too. I know this is one factor in my "identification" with Ennis.
Forgive me for revisiting the debate, but I just want to point out that "internalized homophobia" doesn't necessarily mean that you can't accept being queer. There are different degrees and stages of it, having been there myself as well. There's not being able to see oneself as queer. But then one can also realize that one is queer but still be ashamed of it. For my interpretation, this is where movie Ennis is, by the time we see him at the lake side showdown. For me, his statement in an earlier scene "you ever get the feeling ... they look at you like they know?" means that he knows he's queer. Even his telling about Rich and Earl, drawing a parallel between the two old birds with Ennis and Jack, shows he understands that they're queer and would be killed for it. His sexual identity is not the part he's struggling with anymore. What he struggles with is not being able to see a place for himself and Jack in the world. It's crucial to my understanding of the scene, that his breakdown isn't about his sexual identity, but rather about finally confronting the hopelessness of not being able to really be with Jack because he can't see a place for them in the world.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2006, 12:13:41 pm by starboardlight »
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,712
Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #118 on: May 19, 2006, 12:45:46 pm »
Forgive me for revisiting the debate, but I just want to point out that "internalized homophobia" doesn't necessarily mean that you can't accept being queer. There are different degrees and stages of it, having been there myself as well. There's not being able to see oneself as queer. But then one can also realize that one is queer but still be ashamed of it.

Good point, Nipith, and I couldn't agree more. I'm a little unsure where exactly he stands in his acceptance by the time of the lakeside showdown, but I think he knows it by then, even if he's still pretty uncomfortable with it. In fact, this will be controversial but I would venture that he may already know it up on Brokeback when he says "I ain't queer" -- he has noticed that he's attracted to men but denies it because, to him, that's just not acceptable. But the movie is partly about his moving toward acceptance. His trip to Jack's parents' house shows he has fully reached it.

And this

It's crucial to my understanding of the scene, that his breakdown isn't about his sexual identity, but rather about finally confronting the hopelessness of not being able to really be with Jack because he can't see a place for them in the world.

is how I feel about that scene, too. He still believes he can't fix it, but can't stand it no more, either.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: what's the point of the job switch?
« Reply #119 on: May 19, 2006, 11:56:38 pm »
But the movie is partly about his moving toward acceptance. His trip to Jack's parents' house shows he has fully reached it.

Would you like to elaborate a bit more on that last sentence, Katherine? As you know, I don't believe Ennis was fully in connection with himself until he found the shirts, but that's not my point here. But to say that Ennis's trip to Jack's parents' house shows that he has fully accepted his homosexuality seems a bit much, or at least, maybe, an oversimplification.

On the face of it, the statement appears to ignore that the widow of his best friend has asked him to make that trip to Lightning Flat to see about the disposition of his best friend's ashes in accordance with his best friend's stated wishes. Even an Ennis who was still in total and complete denial might have been expected to do that for the best friend he ever had.

OK, true, Lureen just asked him to be "in touch" with Jack's parents, she didn't literally ask him to make the trip, but I think we need to suppose that he didn't call or write first--or if he did, he didn't mention the disposition of Jack's ashes. Otherwise surely he would have been told, no, the ashes are going in the family plot, and there would have been no reason for him to make the trip, other than, perhaps to pay a condolence call on the parents of his best friend, or visit the grave if the ashes had already been interred. But that would still be something that might be expected of an Ennis who was still in total and complete denial.

So I guess in the end I have to come right out and say that I don't think the fact that Ennis made that trip to Lightning Flat proves anything in and of itself with regard to Ennis's journey to self-acceptance. Sorry.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.