Author Topic: Deliberate Classical References and another 'Jack, I swear' -- by CaseyCornelius (Read 42873 times)

TOoP/Bruce · « **on:** June 16, 2007, 06:47:43 am »

Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 11:03:06 )

UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 13:32:50
Brokeback Mountain is becoming an emotional touchstone and a singular experience for practically everyone who sees it. Its depth of expression, detail, and ability to inculcate itself into the unconsciousness of almost everyone who experiences it gives the film the distinction of a truly innovative art work which taps something powerful and myth-based.

SPOILERS

Having seen the film three times, each time more overwhelmed by its brilliance on every level, I've been especially struck by Ennis's visit to Jack's family home in Lightning Flat to retrieve Jack's ashes with the intent to scatter them on Brokeback. Ang Lee's choice of set-design, framing of the action, blocking of the actors, line readings and lighting all make this eerie, stark sequence visually distinct from anything else in the film. It is all redolent of Classical myth and tragedy. Knowing that Ang Lee's background is in theater, it's not far-fetched to assume this is pointedly intentional. It was driving me crazy trying to identify a specific Classical reference until the following struck me.
I've been riffing intensely on this scene and the following may be an interpretive 'stretch', conflating a number of mythic references, but bear with me.

It seems to me to most clearly echo Virgil's "The Aeneid" and the portion in Book VI where Aeneas descends to Hades. Ennis [= Aeneas?] undertakes a 'labor' much as Aeneas in descending to Hades/Hell to recover the ashes of his Beloved Jack and release his spirit from Tartarus where the Sons of Men are imprisoned.

The interior of Jack's family home is like a sepulchre - white-washed, bare, spare, bereft of any ornament, drained of color with a ghostly, unearthly glow illuminating the kitchen through the windows.

Jack's Mother is the Sybil who allows Ennis/Aeneas passage past Cerberus the guardian of the underworld--Jack's Father- the adamantine, unyielding judge of what is meant to be acceptable and allowable.
Jack's Mother/the Sybil mollifies/drugs the intractable Cerberus/Jack's Father with a sweet cake as in "The Aeneid". She offers the same 'cherry cake' to Ennis/Aeneas along with a cup of coffee. Ennis accepts the latter [as an aid to illumination?], rejecting the former, hence, is able to partake of her offer to see Jack's room and the icons and remnants of his life --"I kept his room like it was when he was a boy. I think he appreciated that. You are welcome to go up in his room, if you want."

Ennis, 'undrugged' by the same cherry cake is able to fully experience the earthly remnants of his beloved Jack's life, the details of whose life he has never fully known or realized, which have been protected and maintained in his boyhood room by his true guardian/Mother.

Ennis ascends the deathly, bare stairs to Jack's room where he finds the only true repository of any of the memories of his childhood, the core of his personality. The bare room looking out over the dusty plain and down "the only road" he had every known is heart-breaking. A simple cot for a bed. The rest of the room consists of reminders of Jack's failed dreams. A desk and chair where he failed to make an impression as a scholar. A cowboy figurine is a mocking reminder of his failure to achieve his dream of becoming a cowboy himself. The small .22 hanging in a wooden rack is a mockery of his lack of marksmanship evident earlier in the film. The only thing representing anything of value he might have achieved is the iconic/cult object of his true and abiding love for Ennis - the two shirts hidden away from the prying eyes of Jack's father and the rest of the world. Only his Mother would have been party to their significance.

Jack's Mother/the Sibyl allows him passage out of the house/Hades with the shirts, placing them in a paper bag for transport, even as the Father/Cerberus states adamantly that Jack is "goin' in" the family plot. The final act of hatred of the Father toward his only son is to deny Jack's last wish for his remains to be united with Brokeback, the only reminder of a time and place which gave him his greatest joy in life.

Ennis's final words of "Jack, I swear" echo those of Aeneas when confronted with the 'shade' or ghost of his beloved Dido who committed suicide after he abandoned her.
Aeneas says to Dido's ghost, "I swear by every oath that hell can muster, I swear I left you against my will. The law of God--the law that sends me now through darkness, bramble, rot and profound night--unyielding drove me; nor could I have dreamed that in my leaving I would hurt you so".

Ang Lee's brilliant final shot juxtaposes the closing closet door of Ennis's Brokeback shrine to Jack's eternal memory with the wind-swept fields of ripening golden grain visible through the trailer window and establishes a supreme ambiguity. Are the fields an image of renewal and hope OR an image of intractible inevitability? A symbol of the emotionally limited world which Ennis will inhabit the rest of his days, giving obeisance to the memory of Jack OR a foretaste of the 'Elysian fields' where Ennis/Aeneas will one day be re-united with his beloved?
With the deftness of the great, superior work of art that it is, Ang Lee leaves it to the viewer to answer the final riddle of Brokeback Mountain.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'

by - jmmgallagher (Wed Dec 28 2005 11:21:28 )

Fantastic.

I love that people are thinking so hard about this film.

Annie Proulx's original short story had most of the elements you mention (Jack's mother's offer of the coffee and the cherry cake, Ennis's polite refusal of the cake, her invitation to him to visit Jack's room) but you are so utterly right when you say "Ang Lee's choice of set-design, framing of the action, blocking of the actors, line readings and lighting all make this eerie, stark sequence visually distinct from anything else in the film."

I will also say that the choices made by the actress who plays Jack's mother, Roberta Maxwell, are incredibly beautiful. Like the movie itself, she is absolutely haunting--the fear in her eyes when she looks at Jack's father, the evident gratitude she feels when Ennis accepts Jack's father's refusal without fuss. Her eyes are as luminous as Jack/Jake's eyes, and because of this, the scene is devastatingly effective and affecting.

Beautiful post.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - CowboyFever (Wed Dec 28 2005 11:29:32 )

Speechless .. thank you for sharing

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - NYCx (Wed Dec 28 2005 11:29:33 )

What a wonderfully thought-out post. Very insightful.

It's a very interesting analogy, especially the line, "nor could I have dreamed that in my leaving I would hurt you so."

Superb work! A+

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 11:45:30 )

UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 12:30:06
I agree with you regarding Roberta Maxwell's meaningful, portentous readings of the lines and what she does with her eyes throughout -- it's a stunning, hallucinatory, devastating scene. I'd add the following observation regarding the camera work.

All of the kitchen scene's initial camera shots are at eye-level, the level of Jack's Father's steely, testy gaze as he judges his son's life and the relationship he had with Ennis. It's obvious the Father knew what Ennis meant to Jack and the ways in which Jack had pursued a forbidden love. The intransience of this forced, inexorable, compulsive camera angle shows that Jack's father/Cerberus is in control here as the "stud-duck".
Peter McRobbie, not incidentally, is also amazing in these extreme close-ups.

But, starting with a higher, comparitively 'jarring', noticeably contrasting, overhead shot of Ennis's head, Jack's Mother's bony hand enters the frame, and touches Ennis's shoulder, breaking the 'spell' of the Father's disdain and hatred for what his son was. She [as the screenplay directions indicate] has never been a part of her husband's life, but has endured the hatred which he feels for their only son.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - adamx013 (Wed Dec 28 2005 11:51:08 )

Yes - I love it. I knew there was a reason that I loved and remembered that shot of Ennis from above. Great analysis!!

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 12:05:20 )

UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 15:22:09
jmmgallagher
Thank you for properly and justifiably giving credit to Annie Proulx for the initial creation of the telling images of the cherry cake, et al. You're absolutely correct--it's all there in the story. I didn't mean to credit them to Ang Lee. But, it is evidence of Ang Lee's brilliance that he took those mythic images and the tenor of Proulx's writing and 'drove them home' with his visual choices.
The use of color throughout the scene and the whole of the film is a work of genius as well. Numerous previous posts have commented on the color blue as being constantly associated with Jack.
The interior of Jack's family home is like a sepulchre - white-washed, bare, spare, bereft of any ornament, save the prominent crucifix in the kitchen [which we could extend into another whole discussion - the subject and theme of The Pentecost and Jack's mother's faith and her ultimate acceptance of her son's expression and object of love in Ennis]. The only color comes from the red of the preserved cherries in the cherry cake and the blue sweater which Jack's mother wears, the obvious source of the dominance of the color blue in the clothing he wears - the blue shirt, the blue parka about which he questions Lureen, wears on their camping trips, etc.

It's my hope that we could try to keep extending this fruitful discussion along. In total contrast to some of the sub-human rants and hateful messages which are being posted on this site.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - arike76 (Wed Dec 28 2005 12:16:08 )

i'm totally blown away. great work with the classical references. glad i took the time to read this thread.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - naun (Wed Dec 28 2005 12:42:56 )

Your suggestion about the Dido and Aeneas reference is remarkably persuasive. In an earlier thread another poster made an observation that, in hindsight, appears to lend further support to it. Unfortunately the message has been deleted from the board, but here's part of what it said:

Right after the shot of Ennis sitting in the window, the camera cuts to a shot taken from deep inside Jack's closet - looking out through the closet and across the room toward Jack sitting at the window. It is as if Jack is looking out at Ennis.

I myself found the scene unsettling in the same way. It is as if there is another presence in the room -- the shade of Jack Twist.

Like you, I've been haunted by the look of the entire sequence in Jack's parents' home, and have appreciated reading your analysis of it. More, please.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 13:10:03 )

naun
I had missed the earlier post, so thank you for this re-stating of the info. Along with the jarring change from the kitchen eye-level shots to the overhead shot of Ennis, the modulation of the shot with a point of view originating from the distant interior of the closet after all of the closely held shots on Ennis was also affective and striking. The idea that the shade of Jack was calling to Ennis to discover the shirts is so moving and obvious now that you mention it. All in keeping with the hallucinatory, profoundly mythic tone of the whole family-home sequence.
Should we start referring to this as the "Ennis and The Shades" scene?
Bravo!

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - jmmgallagher (Wed Dec 28 2005 13:16:59 )

UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 13:51:11
The complex work of art that is "Brokeback Mountain" now has had many authors--just compare the different versions of these few lines:

First, from the 1997 story by Proulx:

"In the end the stud duck refused to let Jack's ashes go. 'Tell you what, we got a family plot and he's goin' in it.' Jack's mother stood at the table coring apples with a sharp, serrated instrument. 'You come again,' she said."

Then in the 1997-1998 screenplay by McMurtry and Ossana (which Ossana says was written in about three months):

"JOHN TWIST still sits at the table, still and angry as ever.

JOHN TWIST
Tell you what, we got a family plot and
he's goin' in it.

ENNIS, resigned to this fact, nods at the old man as if he
understands.

ENNIS

Yes sir.

JACK'S MOTHER hands him the sack with the two shirts.

JACK'S MOTHER
(sympathetic)
You come back and see us again.

ENNIS
(nods)
Ma'am. Thank you for this.

ENNIS puts his hat on.

Leaves."

Compare these versions with the same scene in the Ang Lee movie (2004-2005), described so well above in the first post.

Neither the story nor the screenplay bother to describe the kitchen interior, although both mention a plastic tablecloth that Ang entirely dispenses with--the table on which "Jack's mother" so carefully places the cup of coffee is bare and gleaming.

And think what Roberta Maxwell does with the parenthetic instruction in the screenplay: "(sympathetic)"--she gives, instead, a full and complex account of her relationships with her dead son, with her angry husband, and her hopes for a man she knows to have been her dead son's lover. Ang is famous for giving little or no instructions to his actors, expecting them, rather, to "deliver." Think what she does, with her character, who is not even given a name, and in such little time!

I do agree that the actor Peter McRobbie, as John Twist, is also remarkable. His delivery of the line--

"Tell you what. I know where Brokeback Mountain is."

--is absolutely chilling. (All of his lines are from the original story, nearly verbatim.)

Ironic when you think that such people haven't a hope of being recognized even as "supporting actors" when honors like the Oscars are dispensed.

But this is just one moment. The entire movie is a miracle.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 13:23:34 )

naun
I confess that I'm trolling in two streams regarding the Classic references.
A poster wdj on Dave Cullen's amazing forum http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=17.285
in reply to the discussion on that site
has discovered a stunningly appropriate reference to Aeneas's beloved male friend Misenus for whom Aeneas is primarily searching through Hades. The Sibyl says the following in the John Dryden translation:

Besides, you know not, while you here attend,
Th' unworthy fate of your unhappy friend:
Breathless he lies; and his unburied ghost,
Depriv'd of fun'ral rites, pollutes your host.
Pay first his pious dues; and, for the dead,
Two sable sheep around his hearse be led;
Then, living turfs upon his body lay:
This done, securely take the destin'd way,
To find the regions destitute of day.

The images and themes especially of deprived funeral rites and sable sheep vis a vis Brokeback Mountain are astounding!!

TOoP/Bruce · « **Reply #1 on:** June 16, 2007, 06:54:09 am »

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 14:12:00 )

UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 14:56:06
naun
Others have commented upon this elsewhere, so it's not original, but worth repeating.
There is another visual motif which concludes the 'Ennis and The Shades' sequence as Ennis exits from Lightning Flat.
The film had begun with a fade-in on Ennis arriving on a truck as a speck of light in the barren Wyoming landscape, traveling right to left across the screen, carrying his only worldly possessions in a paper bag. His destination is the impending meeting with Jack and the beginning of their relationship outside of Aguirre's trailer.
In stark symmetry to this, as their worldly relationship and his mythic 'labor' to pay hommage to Jack's spirit concludes, he leaves Jack's home carrying the shirts again in another paper bag as his only significant possession, this time travelling left to right across the screen as the speck of light which is his truck traverses a similarly barren landscape. He essentially ends the film with the same physical material he had when he entered the story. [note the later exchange in Ennis's sparsely furnished trailer between Alma, Jr and Ennis wherein she says, "Daddy, you need more furniture." to which he replies, "If you don't got nothing, then you don't need nothing."]
This portion of the film terminates with one of only four fade-outs used in the film, signifying a leave-taking at numerous levels.

Naw, Lee never does ANYTHING...
by - rvognar01 (Wed Dec 28 2005 14:20:38 )

UPDATED Thu Dec 29 2005 11:00:07
"Ang is famous for giving little or no instructions to his actors, expecting them, rather, to "deliver."--oh, and when Emma Thompson sits down and cries for 5 minutes at the end of "Sense and Sensibility," with Hugh Grant patiently waiting for her to stop so he can propose, that'all HER and HIS idea--Lee didn't have anything to do with it... The maker ofd Crouching Tiger, Ride with the Devil, Sense and Sense and Sensibility and Brokeback Mountain just lets his actors do what they please...give me a *beep* break!

We see those in the light,
But those in darkness,
We don't see,

Bertolt Brecht

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - NoLoveForTheEmpire (Wed Dec 28 2005 14:39:48 )

This is a kickass, thoughtful thread and probably the best I've seen on this board. I haven't seen the movie yet but can't wait to, and I'm also a mythology buff and (knowing very little about the short story) would probably not have been looking for such subtext when I DO see it.

Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention, because I'll be thrilled to look for it in the film.

And keep making awesome posts like this!

Nevermind, it's easier just to call you an idiot. - Brian Griffin

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - sweetlilgygy (Wed Dec 28 2005 14:41:32 )

WOW!! very interesting and thoughtful!! thank u!!

!!The Brokeback Mountain Maniac YEE-HAW!!

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - josh773 (Wed Dec 28 2005 14:58:59 )

I saw the room as an uncluttered celebration of all the reasons that Ennis loved Jack.

A cowboy figurine is a mocking reminder of his failure to achieve his dream of becoming a cowboy himself.

When I saw that cowboy firgurine, I had assumed it was the finished product that Ennis was carving in the beggining of the movie. Ennis starts crying after he picks it up.

A desk and chair where he failed to make an impression as a scholar.

I was more amused by what I saw as a rock collection.

The small .22 hanging in a wooden rack is a mockery of his lack of marksmanship evident earlier in the film.

He never quit trying.

The only thing representing anything of value he might have achieved is the iconic/cult object of his true and abiding love for Ennis - the two shirts

The thing that he loved the most and tried the hardest at was also the thing that he could never be shown in public. Jack even sheltered Ennis from fear of discovery in Jack's own home.

hidden away from the prying eyes of Jack's father and the rest of the world. Only his Mother would have been party to their significance.

His father would have known their significance and possibly destroyed them, again, Jack protecting Ennis. His Mother kept them safe.

One of the most brilliant sequences in movie history
by - pandelis_1 (Wed Dec 28 2005 14:59:40 )

Absolutely, categorically, PERFECT from the minute Roberta Maxwell opens her mouth.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - retropian (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:07:15 )

Casey. This is one of the best insights into the story and film I've read. Thanks for posing it. I liked your take on the ending. It's ambiguity leaves it open to so many interpretations, and their all valid. not to beat a dead horse, but I've been posting on this thread;

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/32370173

as to why I think the ending shot of the grassy field is a hopeful one. Your analysis adds a whole new level to the story. I read "The Aeneid", many years ago, but didn't make this connection. Can you think of any other classical references in the body of the story or film?

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS

by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:13:32 )

UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 15:27:13
josh 773
Thank you. I'm enlightened, humbled and fortified by your different reading of the same images and objects. I suppose it's indicative that we all have either an Ennis [me] glass half-empty or a Jack [you] glass half-full outlook on the same events and reality.
I thought I'd made up my mind that the figurine in Jack's room and the one Ennis was carving in the rain-soaked tent on Brokeback were not the same. Given Lee's penchant for ambiguity, it probably doesn't matter, but you've got me reconsidering it, especially since you noticed that the tears started welling in Ennis's eyes at that point.
I had not spied the rock collection, but will look for it at my next viewing of the film. There are other objects as well -- anything else you noticed? I believe there is a baseball mitt [?] and an oblong round-cornered object -- what looked to me to be a bar of soap [?]

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - mlewisusc (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:15:03 )

The rest of your posts are very thought-provoking but this one blew me away! So obvious when stated, but I completely missed it in three viewings!

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS

by - josh773 (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:24:29 )

Thanks. I very much appreciated your analysis, but it was so different from my own. Also, did you notice the garish mulit-colored wool coat in the closet. . . a hint of Joseph maybe? (I will NOT make an Andrew Lloyd Weber reference. I will NOT make an Andrew Lloyd Weber reference. I will NOT make an . . .sometimes I can't help myself.)

Quote

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - deliane (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:29:36 )

UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 15:31:42
(josh773,

with all due respect for the impressive, dense post of CaseyCornelius.. I just wanted to say your take on the objects in Jake's room was VERY moving- and happens to be closer to my way of seeing- especially the unfinished carving- and the room being full of things that remind Ennis of all the reasons he loves Jack

thanks for the sensitive insights.)

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - littledarlin (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:37:22 )

Excellent observations. I love reading other peoples' analysis of the film, as I have yet to form my own, even after seeing it 5 times! It has just deeply touched me and it is, as mentioned, a work of art in the truest sense. There is so much to take in.

The only thing I'd like to discuss is Jack's father. The impression I get is that Mr. Twist is not an angry man, and he probably had the same understanding Mrs. Twist did, that their son was gay, and loved Ennis. My interpretation was that Mr. Twist was bitter because Jack had always said he would bring Ennis back to the ranch to "lick it into shape", but never came.

It never occurred to me that he was angry because of Jack being gay, just angry over Jack's empty promises, which is intensified by the fact that he is gone for good. Just more testament to the idea that these type of men can not show emotion because in their mind it is not allowed, so they react with anger.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - deliane (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:39:36 )

retropian.. and? CaseyCornelius..

to your request for more (possible) literary allusions-

well---- after my second time seeing the movie, I did come away with a feeling that Ennis reminded me of Billy Budd... (beyond the obvious parallel-)

not exactly Classical but.
and I'm certainly not up to writing about it in depth right at the moment--!

but would be interested to hear both your thoughts..

CaseyC, your post made me realize that not only is the film a cultural watershed moment- but there are probably Brokeback PhD dissertations on the horizon..! : )

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - retropian (Wed Dec 28 2005 15:57:57 )

beyrmama, I think Jack's father was to dense, too wrapped up in his bitterness to understand Jack. Even though he lays out the clues that Jack was gay, it didn't register with him. He is bitter and angry in this scene because Jack never returned with help to fix up the ranch. Jack mother understood Jack, and understood what Ennis meant to him. She and Ennis connect and recognize their love for Jack in each other. Is this the only scene where Ennis acknowledges his love for Jack to another? This is really the topic for a new thread.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - retropian (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:01:35 )

Deliane, I've read Billy Bud and understand it to be a retelling of the Christ myth in a new context. At least that's been the ususal interpretation. Why and how does Ennis remind you of Billy Bud? It's been at leat 15 years since I read it.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:07:32 )

UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 16:48:09
beyrmama:
Grateful for your thoughts.
Keeping in mind Ang Lee's use of subtle ambiguity throughout the film, your take on John Twist is also possible. My seeing John Twist as ashamed of his son derives from Jack's revealing to Ennis that even though his father was a bullrider, well-known in his day, he had kept all of his secrets to himself, never taught Jack a thing and had never once come to see him ride. All indicative of a classic text-book withdrawl of a father from a son whom he suspects is gay.

The Proulx story also includes the horrific incident recording John Twist's abuse of Jack at the age of three or four when he beat the stuffing out of him for urinating on the bathroom floor - an incident which Ang Lee, Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana were obligated to leave out given the impossibility of filming it with a child actor and the revulsion associated with John Twist's actions. Given this, Annie Proulx's take is that John Twist at the very least was an inveterate, hateful child abuser from early in Jack's life, before there would have been any suspicion on John Twist's part that his son was gay.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - littledarlin (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:13:55 )

ahh a point I completely missed. I think I shall go read the short story again.

"can't please my old man, no way." you're very perceptive, Casey

Off-topic: I really should change my user name. It just happened to be the song I was listening to at the time. Oh well.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - pyotr-3 (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:29:28 )

Thank you all for this magnificent discussion... the best movie chat I have ever seen!!! Bravo!!

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - 3of19 (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:35:02 )

Joseph and his amazing technicolor dreamcoat. There, someone had to say it :p

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - naun (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:36:07 )

UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 16:42:39
I looked up the Dave Cullen site, and somebody there mentions that Misenus was was drowned for hubris. In Brokeback Mountain, Lureen tells Ennis that Jack "drowned in his own blood". More grist for your mill.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI

by - deliane (Wed Dec 28 2005 16:57:22 )

UPDATED Wed Dec 28 2005 17:02:03
(CaseyC, Jack's father actually urinates all over beaten up little Jack, as he is laying on the floor--

The old man blew up about it and this one time worked into a crazy rage. "Christ, he licked the stuffin out a me, knocked me down on the bathroom floor, whipped me with his belt. I thought he was killin me. Then he says, 'You want a know what it's like with piss all over the place? I'll learn you,' and he pulls it out and lets go all over me, soaked me, then he throws a towel at me and makes me mop up the floor, take my clothes off and warsh them in the bathtub, warsh out the towel, I'm bawlin and blubberin. But while he was hosin me down I seen he had some extra material that I was missin. I seen they'd cut me different like you'd crop a ear or scorch a brand. No way to get it right with him after that."

I venture to guess that filming a scene like this would have completely skewed the rhythm of the movie-- it would have become, unavoidably, an emotional climax- instead of a throwaway horrific "aside" as it is in the story- a moment Ennis recalls while he is visiting Lightning Flat, Jack's parents--

so Lee's compromise, perhaps, was to have the malevolence of Jack's father come through in that scene purely through the delivery of Peter McRobbie.

"no way to get it right with him after that" says it all. Proulx is AMAZING.)

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 17:00:15 )

UPDATED Tue Jan 3 2006 11:19:27
naun
Is not the number of analogies and symbolic references that both the Proulx and Lee visions of Brokeback are able to accomodate amazing?
It's difficult to conceive that Annie Proulx did not have some of this mythic imagery, language, symbolism, etc. in her mind when writing Brokeback. She is an 'omnivorous' reader [in her words] and her memory and retention for images and languages must make her reference all we have been discussing at an unconscious level. The apprehension of the deepest levels of mythology bred into our unconsciousness will always 'out' of the flesh of a magnificent literary work or masterful film.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - naun (Wed Dec 28 2005 17:07:20 )

This portion of the film terminates with one of only four fade-outs used in the film, signifying a leave-taking at numerous levels.

A tangential observation here. There's a recurring image in nearly all of Ang Lee's films in which one character departs while another looks on. Think, for example, of the closing scene in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, or the one in Ride with the Devil. In Brokeback Mountain, you have the shot of Jack watching Ennis drive away for (though he doesn't know it) the last time. I've often wondered whether that image was a kind of metaphor for emigration, and that thought struck me again when I read something that Larry McMurtry said recently, that "the power of Ang Lee's movies comes from exile" and that this was what made him the ideal director for this story.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - starboardlight (Wed Dec 28 2005 17:29:31 )

oh my god. that's was beautifully written. I must say for what seems like such a simply made film, it has the power to inspire our intellect as well as our primal emotions and spirit. Thank you for your insight into this scene. I did read the Aeneid in college, and all of that come back to me like a flash flood.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - starboardlight (Wed Dec 28 2005 17:49:47 )

I will echo that sentiment. I did think that I was, like Casey feels himself, more identified with Ennis, but that wooden horse did bring me back to the carving. You hit it on the head for me.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - starboardlight (Wed Dec 28 2005 17:56:11 )

plus the whole thing of showing a child's circumcised penis versus the old man's uncut one is problematic, to put it lightly. I don't think there's a director in all of film history that could carry that off with any kind of sensitivity.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Dec 28 2005 22:26:29 )

retropian

For me another obvious possible example is provided by the symbolic 'wounds' which Ennis and Jack give to each other their last hours on Brokeback prior to coming down off of the mountain. Jack's secreting the two bloodied shirts is to me symbolic of wounds which will not heal. The evidence of Ennis's inability to express himself with tenderness towards Jack and venting his frustration in that final punch is ever present, the blood aging on the stained shirts, but never disappearing. The rediscovery of the shirts by Ennis, the reappearance of the shirts at the end in Jack's closet are akin to the wounds re-opening, being made palpable again after the years of bearing the psychological wounds to which their mutual love has made them subject.
There are many allusions in literature, the most obvious one being the wound that will not heal which Amfortas bears in the Parsifal legend and opera by Richard Wagner.
I dissolve into tears each time I watch the scene [with the lines added to the short story by McMurtry and Ossana]where Ennis, at their very last meeting, responds to Jack's "I wish I knew how to quit you." with "Then why don't you let me be? It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this, I'm nothin', I'm nowhere." This and Proulx's two 'refrains' from the book "Let be, let be" and "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved" bespeak their difficult lives trying to live out their love for each other and the two wounded souls which result.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - pyotr-3 (Thu Dec 29 2005 09:05:12 )

I have seen the film three times, but after reading this thread I MUST go see it several more times!! Thanks to all of you who have brought forth these inciteful comments in this thread!

TOoP/Bruce · « **Reply #2 on:** June 16, 2007, 07:00:11 am »

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Dec 29 2005 09:24:45 )

UPDATED Thu Dec 29 2005 23:09:22
naun
I saw the film for the fourth time last night and noted the points where the four 'internal' fade-outs occur [not including the fifth and final one which closes the film]. Knowing that Ang Lee would not employ so noticeable a filmic effect indicating a 'full-close' without a dramatic purpose I note that they each signal a discovery or revelation in the film, most specially for Ennis.

1] The first fade-out occurs at the end of the re-union sequence where they get together for the first time after 4 years - following Ennis's line "Ain't no reins on this one" around the night-fire next to the river.
This closes with them realizing the 'truth' and the significance implicit in their intitial encounter on Brokeback and the proimise to 'ride it' as long as they can.

2] The second is after Ennis's Thanksgiving dinner with Alma, the girls, and Monroe where Alma confronts Ennis with the 'truth' of his relationship with Jack and his self-destructive, maso-chistic confrontation with the anonymous roughneck/trucker who beats him up.

3] The third occurs after Ennis and Jack's final meeting, where they confront each other with the 'truth' of their relationship: Jack's 'infidelities' fulfilling the need in him for more intimacy than Ennis is willing to provide; Ennis's inability to create a satisfying life without facing the 'truth' of his undying love for Jack and accepting it.

4] The fourth one closes Ennis's visit to Jack's home, where he sees the evidence of and finally realizes the 'truth' of the depth of commitment which Jack bore him and which he HAS to admit he never returned until it was too late - the discovery of the shirts, the symbolic 'evidence' of the 'fatal' bloody wound that marked them both.
This last is striking as it, as mentioned before, closes on an exactly symmetrical shot of Ennis travelling as a point of light across the landscape with nothing in his life save the paperbag with the shirts across the screen in the opposite direction from which he 'entered' the film in the very first shot.
Amazing filmic structure.

And as the months and years go by, one has to assume that this film will be studied minutely for the consistency of all of the interpretive choices Ang Lee makes. We could create another 5 threads discussing only the use of colors and the transfer and significance of the 'wheat brown' associated with Ennis and the 'sky or indigo blue' with Jack and the transferring and intermingling of the colors in their lives [clothing, vehicles, the clothing of their loved ones, etc]. AND the way Lee structures the images in foreground and background in the frame, symbolically linking different halves of the frame - most noticeable in the opening sequence where Ennis is always shot against the buildings hemming him in and Jack is always shot with open fields or other 'free' landscape appearing in the other half of the frame.
The absolute 'stunner' in this respect is the final shot juxtaposing the closet door with the open fields of ripening corn and grain - summing up the psychological themes of each of the main characters and those of the whole film [the impositions of town and society versus the freedom of the open land] with one magnificent ultimate image.
Both the color and frame compositions show that Ang Lee knows and has studied Michelangelo Antonioni, Ingmar Bergman, Bresson, Tarkovsky. Lee is destined to be ranked with all of them in the future.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - losdzez (Thu Dec 29 2005 10:54:59 )

This is a pretty basic question given the depth of your analysis but did you see a significance in the fact that the blue denim jacket (Jack's?) was inside Ennis' shirt at the end, while when he found it in the closet the jacket was on the outside?

I.e., that his placing the shirt on the outside of the jacket perhaps was one more way of showing tenderness and care to Jack that he had not been able to show in life?

Like an eternal embrace.

Someone had mentioned on an earlier thread that Ennis never seemed to comfort Jack. I've only seen the movie once but I do recall that there is a flashback sequence just before Ennis drives away from Jack, to an earlier leavetaking where Ennis comes up behind Jack and puts his arm around him. A very tender and open moment, rare from Ennis.

And the shirt on the outside seems to echo that embrace.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - BannerHill (Thu Dec 29 2005 10:56:22 )

Remember at the end when Ennis is in Jacks room and he opens the window and then sits down? I noticed that-very carefully-The camera lowers down as Ennis sits. I thought how odd that was, and I thought it was as if....we were in the room silently witnessing him. As if we were sitting down WITH him. Did anyone else get this?

Have I gone too far?

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - josh773 (Thu Dec 29 2005 11:02:54 )

Also, I think that the card that comes back marked "Deceased" is the first time that Ennis is suggesting the time for their next get together.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - naun (Thu Dec 29 2005 11:09:13 )

Casey, thanks for another illuminating post. You know, I quite seriously think they should hire you to do a commentary track for the DVD.

the opening sequence where Ennis is always shot against the buildings hemming him in and Jack is always shot with open fields or other 'free' landscape

Rather like the imagery associated with the two sisters in Sense and Sensibility, interestingly enough!

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - jmmgallagher (Thu Dec 29 2005 11:12:50 )

Probably because Ennis was feeling guilty about August....

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - Tantemo (Thu Dec 29 2005 12:10:07 )

I like the fact that Jack's dad is a stud duck. Not the first animal that comes to my mind when I think of a stud.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Dec 29 2005 12:50:26 )

UPDATED Thu Dec 29 2005 12:52:04
losdzez:

A beautiful image isn't it? Discussion on it has cropped up in a number of other threads. It's too bad we can't re-organize some of the better posts from this one and others under thread topics.

One thread topic could be [jumping off from your post] the numerous ways that Ennis creates reminders of Jack and their time on Brokeback throughout his life from the begining of his marriage with Alma.
Have you noticed how in the winter tobogganing scene immediately following the weddding scene he is wearing a BLUE wool cap - the color associated throughout the film with Jack? Has to be a deliberate touch by Ang Lee.
And another scene or two later there is a painting of a mountain peak which looks very much like Brokeback hanging in the sad rancher's cabin where Alma and Ennis have set up their home and family. It prepares us sub-consciously for their first reunion meeting and 'the kiss' as it shows that Ennis has constantly been paying hommage to Jack and their relationship with a multitude of tiny, subtle iconic touches.
The use of color as symbol, reflection of, and visual commentary on the relationship of Ennis and Jack could start a whole new thread.

Anyone want to take the color or icon topic and 'ride with it'?

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - mlewisusc (Thu Dec 29 2005 13:33:29 )

Casey (and all),

I have been somewhat hesitant to post on this thread because I'm so impressed with your knowledge and analysis. I just jumped off another thread wherein a poster traced the color blue thru the film as an enticement to Ennis - including blue earrings Alma Jr. is wearing when she asks if she can come live with him. Futhermore, this poster pointed out that the only color in the Twist home in Lightning Flat was blue. I'll need to see the film again and watch for this.

I had another reference which is from the story and included in the movie, but I don't know how much of a leap it is. In the telephone conversation between Ennis and Lureen, she says the following in reference to Brokeback Mountain: "But knowing Jack, it might be some pretend place where the bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring [quoting screenplay]."

These are lines from the song "Big Rock Candy Mountain," which has a current reputation as a children's song, but (as used in "O Brother Where Art Thou" recently) was originally a Hobo ballad, and one with some dark history. In some records regarding the origins of the song, there's a version which is the story a farmer's boy tells who is seduced by the words sung in the song into going on the road with a Hobo who passess by his farm - the Hobo telling the boy he will take him to the Big Rock Candy Mountains and ennumerating all the great things he will find there - all of which are fantastic, of course. But when the boy returns from the road, he ends the song by telling how it was all a lie and that he was sexually used by the Hobo.

Is it possible Proulx could have had this "darker" version of the song in mind when she put these words in Lureen's mouth (not that I think Lureen was making such an alllusion) - and by extension or choice director Lee?

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - mlewisusc (Thu Dec 29 2005 13:36:04 )

Here's the link to the other thread talking about the color blue:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/32520788

Jack's room
by - pyotr-3 (Thu Dec 29 2005 13:58:54 )

I had not noticed that the shirts were hidden in a nook of the closet. I went back and sure enough, Proulx's story refers to them as being hidden there.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - naun (Thu Dec 29 2005 14:01:47 )

In some records regarding the origins of the song, there's a version which is the story a farmer's boy tells who is seduced by the words sung in the song into going on the road with a Hobo who passess by his farm - the Hobo telling the boy he will take him to the Big Rock Candy Mountains and ennumerating all the great things he will find there - all of which are fantastic, of course.

Gosh, that sounds like a version of the Pied Piper legend. If there's any relevance to Brokeback, perhaps Ennis is the crippled child who cannot follow.

By the way, the Pied Piper story makes an unexpected and stunning appearance in Atom Egoyan's film of "The Sweet Hereafter".

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Dec 29 2005 14:05:57 )

mlewisusc:

PLEASE !! Don't be hesitant. I'm just riffing here, trying to externalize thoughts as I attempt to come to terms with the emotional response Brokeback Mountain has created in me. I think we're all seeking communal enlightenment and solace on this board. What Ennis says about their relationship should apply to all of us Brokeback seekers --'Ain't no reins on this one.'

Sounds like you should start another thread with the Big Rock Candy Mountain query.
I had another musical thread going over a month ago

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/29901831?d=29901831#29901831

in which I was dealing with the songs with which Ennis and Jack serenade each other on Brokeback in the Proulx story. I had asked a similar question regarding the different sanitized versus saucy versions of Stawberry Roan which Ennis might have sung. I was sorry to see that there wasn't much of their singing in the film.

Afraid I can't help you. But, you should get a response from someone else.
If you want to start another thread feel free to integrate with my content from the link above.

You might even send the query to the forum on Annie Proulx's own site www.annieproulx.com assuming that her son-in-law [the site administrator] might be able to field the question. He has been known to get replies from her regarding various questions.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - mlewisusc (Thu Dec 29 2005 14:22:47 )

Thanks Casey!

I am not very tech savvy (this is my first experience posting on a message board ever - that's what "Brokeback Mountain" has driven me to), but I'll try to start a new thread about the song. A word for you on the Strawberry Roan (which I posted a day or so ago and now can't find the thread!) - I read on a folk music database that the "salty" or "bawdy" version of Strawberry Roan involved two cowboys hired to castrate the horse, rather than (in the regular version) one bronc-busting cowboy hired to break the horse.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS

by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Dec 29 2005 14:31:47 )

mlewisusc:

There are separate links to both of the versions of Strawberry Roan in my intial post on the link I provided earlier to my earlier musical thread. It will save you a little time if you're looking to compare them.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - losdzez (Thu Dec 29 2005 15:17:19 )

Bumping this thread because it's the type of thing IMDB was [or should have been] created for: people who love films, who "feel" them, and want to enjoy them as the nourishment for the soul that they can be.

I'm writing a couple of screenplays. One of my teachers tried to get me to remove a reference in a scene (not as erudite or classically founded by a long shot as the references here in this thread), and we ended up arguing.

And I thought afterwards that perhaps he was right, since it's symbolism that could be missed anyway, just something simple and subtle pointing to a character's attempt to hide his true nature and/or his unwittingly revealing it. Something hugely significant to me but . . . maybe not so much to others. I came close to acquiescing.

Seeing this thread, and thinking back on the film, I see that even the most subtle nuance can enrich the story - even if the viewer is unaware of the symbolism, the subliminal signals, the images in the background, the vistas, the colors. Most viewers don't know when they're being engulfed by the story, or the storytelling, or how. They just know it works for them.

So I am back to inserting symbols that work for me, because they always and only come from inspiration, the "muse", and they inform and deepen the story, even if the ultimate viewer (fates be praised if this ever gets seen!) is not wholly aware of them.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - pyotr-3 (Thu Dec 29 2005 16:47:34 )

I must say I agree with Josh's interpretation of the room. I can't wait to go see Brokeback for my fourth time so I can watch out for all these things!!

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - pyotr-3 (Thu Dec 29 2005 17:40:46 )

I am in awe of the posters on this thread. Are they an example of what happens when you pay attention in class? Bravo to you all!

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - pyotr-3 (Thu Dec 29 2005 18:21:05 )

We must lobby Ang Lee to hire Casey for commentary on the DVD! Anyone got his address??

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - abydosianchulac2 (Thu Dec 29 2005 19:57:31 )

UPDATED Thu Dec 29 2005 20:01:04
I just came back from a showing of BBM at Boston Common (fairly weak turn out, only about a quarter to a third full), and I had tried to keep an eye out for the usage of color throughout the film but kept getting distracted by little stuff like, you know, the plot. What I did think I noticed was an overall downward trend in the vibrance of the color from the rich blues, greens, and browns at Brokeback Moutain to the drab, dusty neutrals that come to surround Ennis's life. Notably, the only real bright colors towards the end of the movie (especially after Jack's murder; after that point, all color seems to vanish into a sepia wash) come from objects in Ennis's life that connect to good times with Jack and the love that they had/have for each other: the red of the post office; the blue of Jack's mother's clothing; and the blue and brown of Jack's and Ennis's shirts, respectively, are all the major sources of color I saw. Everything else spiraled downward losing hue and vibrance until Ennis found himself in Jack's family home which was practically devoid of any color at all. Then, in the last scene, the trend reverses itself almost completely, moving back into the neutral shades of the dust and dirt around Ennis's trailer, then into Alma Jr.'s clothing, then into the shirts and postcard in the closet, then finally full circle to the bright greens and golds of the grasses outside the window in the final shot. If anyone can find evidence to either support this analysis or tear it apart, please post it; like I said, I didn't get a chance to devote much time towards focusing on the technical aspects of the film.

Side Note: Did anyone else notice that the opening shot of the mountains and hills at sunrise with Ennis hitchhiking to Signal and the shot of Ennis driving back home from Lightening Flat were almost identical? Can anyone find a solid connection between them, cause I'm too emotionally tired (again) to look much more into the movie tonight?

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - flashframe777 (Thu Dec 29 2005 20:01:03 )

And did you notice the view of Brokeback Mountain in the background right beyond Aguirre's trailer in the opening scene. It looks so majestic in the background - as if it's a prelude to something great coming into view.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - mlewisusc (Thu Dec 29 2005 21:02:21 )

I think Casey posted earlier in this thread that when Ennis first arrives, he arrives at sunup in a truck moving from right to left across the screen, holding all his possessions in a paper bag. When he departs from Lightning Flat, he travels at dusk, in his truck, from left to right across the screen, holding his most important possession (the shirts) in a paper bag. At the end of that scene, there is one of only four fadeouts in the film. These things are symbolic of the opening and closing of his relationship with Jack.

Make sure you give Casey and not me the credit for these observations.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - abydosianchulac2 (Thu Dec 29 2005 21:24:22 )

Whoops, mea culpa! I guess I overlooked that in his postings. Sorry, Casey!

TOoP/Bruce · « **Reply #3 on:** June 16, 2007, 07:05:24 am »

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - starboardlight (Thu Dec 29 2005 22:05:55 )

I'm writing a couple of screenplays. One of my teachers tried to get me to remove a reference in a scene (not as erudite or classically founded by a long shot as the references here in this thread), and we ended up arguing.

And I thought afterwards that perhaps he was right, since it's symbolism that could be missed anyway, just something simple and subtle pointing to a character's attempt to hide his true nature and/or his unwittingly revealing it. Something hugely significant to me but . . . maybe not so much to others. I came close to acquiescing.

set it aside for a while then re-evaluate. The thing you don't want to do is fall in love with a detail to the detriment of the big picture. You're right, just because it's not obvious to the general audience, doesn't mean it should be taken out. However, look carefully to see if it serves the story, in terms of helping the pacing, revealing the characters, etc. You teacher's objection may be to the fact that it doesn't fit, rather than it being an obscure reference. Good luck with the screenplay, though.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - michellemybell (Thu Dec 29 2005 23:59:27 )

Is this film going to become the next film and compartive literature topic course...to much thinking hurts my head...I cant wait to graduate college so I never have to think again...lol

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - HBFilmBuff (Fri Dec 30 2005 00:16:32 )

I noticed that the reference to "whiskey springs" was first made by Ennis, when he is telling Jack "it's not going to be like that" when Jack proposes they move up to Wyoming together.

So it struck me as ironic, that Lureen uses those same words to ridicule Jack's dreaminess and idealism when she is talking to Ennis about Jack.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - mlewisusc (Fri Dec 30 2005 00:36:02 )

Good point, HBFilmBuff, although I think it actually occurs at a later reunion where Ennis mocks Jack's suggestion Ennis move to Texas with something about talking Alma into letting Jack and Lureen adopt Ennis' girls. Got to go look at the screenplay again!

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - jmmgallagher (Fri Dec 30 2005 05:43:06 )

Just sneak it in. Be crafty.

Your teacher will just be one of the people who didn't get it all, and that's ok.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Fri Dec 30 2005 10:49:15 )

losdzez "this thread [is] the type of thing IMDB was created for"
Amen to that !! I can't believe some of the hate-filled, inappropriate, and unfit posts which are distracting rabid fans of Brokeback from delving more into the film and its significance.
BUMP

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - mlewisusc (Fri Dec 30 2005 14:26:08 )

On another thread, balrog20 just pointed out an interesting symbolism and I want to put it in front of you folks.

When Alma Jr. drives up to Ennis' trailer, Ennis has just put numbers on the side of his mailbox - as balrog20 says, no more general delivery for him!

To balrog20, this is symbolic of Ennis settling down and making more of a commitment, just as he concludes the film with a commitment to Jack.

What do you think?

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - BannerHill (Fri Dec 30 2005 14:39:15 )

That is intersting. Particularly ater seeing the post office several times. Very good point. I guess he WAS settling down, huh? Alll the more sad that now all he's just got a shirt.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - pyotr-3 (Fri Dec 30 2005 15:46:35 )

Yes, Ennis is re-joining the Universe. And some people think that it is significant that he puts the number 17 on his mailbox. Someone said this is the age he got kicked out of his sibling's house, out on his own. And now he is starting over in life once again.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - pyotr-3 (Fri Dec 30 2005 16:38:52 )

Does Ang Lee have this many amazing aspects of his OTHER films??

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - pyotr-3 (Fri Dec 30 2005 17:12:08 )

Funny, it never occurred to me that Mr Twist would be angry for any reason OTHER than his being gay. We gay guys usually start feeling the hatred of our dads when we do something non-masculine at about age 5 and it continues from then until the day one of us dies. It never occurs to me that parents actually get mad at their children for any other reason, since until you've felt the angry eyes of a homophobic parent aimed at your innocent gay self for 10 or 20 years, you probably haven't experienced hopelessness. Unless your parent is a sociopath, psychopath, or seriously demented child abuser.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - pyotr-3 (Sat Dec 31 2005 06:20:40 )

This thread really needs to be put in a BOOK!


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - naun (Sat Dec 31 2005 07:10:34 )

But, starting with a higher, comparitively 'jarring', noticeably contrasting, overhead shot of Ennis's head, Jack's Mother's bony hand enters the frame, and touches Ennis's shoulder, breaking the 'spell' of the Father's disdain and hatred for what his son was.

It has struck me that this is not the first time we see Ennis touched on the shoulder. In the flashback sequence where the young Ennis is shown the body of the dead rancher, the father's hand is seen on the boy's shoulder. As the boy's eyes widen in horror at the sight of the dead man, the father's hand tightens like a vice around the boy's neck.

To me this is a powerful image of parental responsibility abused. (There's a rather similar shot, with not dissimilar overtones, in Hulk when the young Bruce Banner witnesses a traumatic scene.) The later scene with Jack's mother seems to mirror this earlier scene; it may not be coincidental that the dead (not yet put to rest, as Casey observes elsewhere in this thread) are a presence in both scenes. But here the touch is benevolent, not coercive. It is, as Casey says, as if she is breaking the father's spell. I'm tempted to go further and say that she is breaking the spell cast by both fathers, Ennis' as well as Jack's. Jack's mother, through this small, healing gesture, seems to accept Ennis as a son and to bestow on him the parental love his own father withheld.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - pyotr-3 (Sat Dec 31 2005 15:29:33 )

I love the contrast to the Aeneid. I just saw the film for the fourth time, however, and I didn't see an otherworldly glow in the kitchen. But other than that everything in the Aeneid comparison is right on target.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - mlewisusc (Sat Dec 31 2005 16:16:58 )

WOW great though!

Re: One of the most brilliant sequences in movie history
by - pyotr-3 (Sat Dec 31 2005 17:24:22 )

Yes, Roberta Maxwell almost deserves an Oscar nomination for her role. It is small, yet so pivotal, and SO perfectly done.

whiskey springs
by - pyotr-3 (Sat Dec 31 2005 18:33:39 )

Yes, also the reference to bluebirds (with the whiskey springs) is interesting. Notice that Alma, Jr., was wearing bluebird earrings when you see she & Ennis riding in the truck together.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - CaseyCornelius (Sat Dec 31 2005 18:52:34 )

UPDATED Tue Jan 3 2006 23:04:00
naun:

I sense that you are as touched as I am by the sensitivity and sympathy Ang Lee shows at numerous levels towards every one of his characters.

I've just seen the film for the fifth time and agree with your assessment of the parallel shots of the father's coercive hands on Ennis's shoulder in the flash-back sequence and the beneficence conveyed in the shot of Jack's mother 'blessing' him with a similar touch. You are spot on with that thought.

This time, I looked for more visual motifs of 'touching' and was able to spot another instance of parallelism/symmetry. It conveys yet another example of Ennis's identification of a healing and comforting touch by 'the mother' as an archetype.

The valedictory flashback of Ennis embracing Jack from behind by the fire, singing a song his mother taught him, is one of the few 'tendernesses' which Ennis is able to demonstrate in the film, a gesture also taught to him by his mother from a distant memory, accompanied by the same child-talk.
An identification with Alma as 'the mother' whose tenderness Ennis still seeks is provided by a parallel shot, earlier in the film [but later in the narrative since we see the flashback later], of Alma embracing Ennis from behind, when they are readying themselves for bed. Alma embraces Ennis in exactly the same way as Ennis embraces Jack, same arm position, very similar angle and position in the frame. And Ennis falls back against Alma, in the same way Jack falls back against Ennis, to quote Proulx's story, "leaning against the steady heartbeat."

Moreover, it's obvious that Ennis has a relationship with Alma primarily as a maternal, tender 'comforter'. Alma herself counsels the possibility of Ennis being better off closer to people, not forcing himself to live in the lonely way he was raised without his parents, invoking the protecting concern of the 'shades' of his parents.

However, to relate to her sexually he has to 'mask' her by turning out the light and make love to her in the position with which he familiarly made love to Jack because in a similar way, to quote Annie Proulx from the story, Ennis does not want "to see nor feel that it [was] Jack he held". Or Alma for that matter. He must make love to Alma in the same way, not to ape the act of sex from behind, but using that position in order to avoid loving her or anyone openly, face-to-face. Even in making love to Jack, one cannot imagine a single instance when Ennis's eyes are ever open. Even the 'second night' embrace on Brokeback has Jack initiate sexual tenderness to which Ennis responds as if it were more of a mother's embrace, with his eyes closed, not able to look at or willingly face Jack himself.

It's yet another instance of the heart-breaking inability of Ennis at every level to identify and accept the true object of his deepest love, Jack. It's due to the disgust and abhorrence of such tenderness having been instilled in him by his father forcing him to witness Earl's corpse, the tortured and desecrated result of such a love.

I'm astounded by the depth and richness of psychological insight Ang Lee conveys through these tiny details and the way he weaves them together so coherently and with such fragility as if the film's whole structure would break apart if a single detail was overstated. The film IS a miracle and a wonderful gift.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - pyotr-3 (Sat Dec 31 2005 19:39:58 )

Exactly. This message board was created for postings like what we see on this thread. Not for childish banter over whether or not Jake & Heath really had sex or not. Too bad there can't be an "adult room" and a separate "children's room" so we don't have to wade thru the silly junk to find substance like Casey's comments.

TOoP/Bruce · « **Reply #4 on:** June 16, 2007, 07:08:48 am »

Water Walking Jesus
by - pyotr-3 (Sun Jan 1 2006 06:51:59 )

What was the significance of Jack singing the "Water Walking Jesus" song?

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - josh773 (Sun Jan 1 2006 07:09:29 )

The seventeenth letter of the alphabet is "Q".

Re: Water Walking Jesus
by - CaseyCornelius (Sun Jan 1 2006 07:35:41 )

pyotr-3:

RE: Water Walking Jesus.

I've commented on the songs which Jack and Ennis sing to each other in a previous thread titled Ennis and Jack Serenading - you can probably find it if you go through my profile and posts. Someone else a little later on this thread tried to integrate it with a discussion about Big Rock Candy Mountain.

Jack's singing of Water Walking Jesus - a fictional hymn, the fragment of which Jack sings was written by Larry McMurtry's son, Annie Proulx and another person listed in the credits for the film - is another subtle allusion, this time Biblical, which provides another layer of depth to Jack's character.

We could begin another whole discussion here with reference to Jack's Mother and how her acceptance of Jack's love for Ennis is not incompatible with her faith. And, hence, in Annie Proulx's eyes obviates any conflict between true Christian faith and the tolerance for a man loving another man.

Remember that in the story Jack serenades Ennis with a favored hymn, "Water Walking Jesus" learned from his mother who believed in THE PENTECOST [emphasis mine].
It's touching in the film that Jack cannot explain the Pentecost to Ennis, despite his up-bringing. He confuses it with the Last Judgement, whereas it is actually the beginning of the Christian church, with the first descent of the Holy Spirit, the enlightening 'paraclete' or comforter, upon all believers. Roberta Maxwell's brief, but astonishing portrayal of Jack's Mother comforting Ennis, who has himself offered condolences to Lureen and Jack's parents, is all the more moving as she is the first and only person to offer comfort to HIM.

I'm moved to tears by the pathos of Jack's fondness for the Biblical account of the miracle of Jesus walking on the water and encouraging the disciple Peter to leave the rest of the disciples and join him on the tumult of the waters. What an apt Christian symbol to reflect Jack's more adventuresome, open, and daring spirit in complete contrast to that of the taciturn, mistrusting, fearful Ennis.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - mlewisusc (Sun Jan 1 2006 07:45:02 )

I'm astounded, once again, by your insights. The parallel to Alma holding Ennis to Ennis holding Jack seems spot-on to me.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - anml-lvr (Sun Jan 1 2006 07:56:14 )

Wow Casey...
That's deep. Love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think you are right on.
Thank you...

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - pyotr-3 (Sun Jan 1 2006 08:21:43 )

CaseyCornelius for President!

Another 'glass half full' reinterpretation of this scene...
by - bkamberger (Sun Jan 1 2006 08:29:21 )

...remember that the blood on the shirts is Ennis', which Jack had wiped off with his sleeve. Boys often become "blood brothers" by self-inflicting a small wound and mingling the blood. By keeping the shirts, Jack was cherishing that pact and perhaps hoping that this blood would eventually carry him to Ennis' heart, just as blood does in the body.

I'm not half the classics scholar you are, but I seem to recall several legends in which a fallen hero is restored by reacquiring a bit of his own blood that has been lost. And having that blood be on the shirt of his lost love would surely have even more of a restorative effect for both. The shirt is, in fact, their entire relationship in talismanic form, and it will survive them both.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - diemxperdidi (Sun Jan 1 2006 08:51:30 )

Even though it made me feel very young and stupid, thank you for that wonderful analysis!

Re: Another 'glass half full' reinterpretation of this scene...
by - CaseyCornelius (Sun Jan 1 2006 12:23:24 )

bkamberger:
Thank you !!
I had toyed with the idea of 'the wound' on the shirts alluding to an 'intermingling of blood' which is the prime trait of a Bruderschaft. I'm glad that it's also occured to you.
I had backed off of the idea for two reasons:
1] the wounding was not willing nor intentional, but accidental on Jack's part, eliciting a frustrated, agressive reaction by Ennis -- ie. suggested no agreement whatsoever;
2] none of Jack's blood was spilt -- although the obvious, painful bruise which appeared could be conceived of as such.
Still, I'd agree with you that the ultimate use of the shirts as a talisman [your terrific term !] by Jack emotionally signifies something similar to a Bruderschaft.

Thank you, too,...
by - bkamberger (Sun Jan 1 2006 17:10:34 )

UPDATED Sun Jan 1 2006 17:24:14
...for your openness to different interpretations as well as your considerate explanation of your viewpoint.

You're right that "the wounding was not willing nor intentional," but given the characters involved, how could it be otherwise? Neither could ever quite pledge commitment, or even state his love openly, and they certainly do more than their share of hurting each other, either inadvertently or in an angry form of blind passion. And yet, for all their denials, they ultimately do forge a bond as close and strong as any Bruderschaft. Remember that the memory Jack cherishes most is of Ennis hugging him in a non-sexual manner and humming a lullaby, just as a loving brother might. Remember, too, that Ennis was raised by his brother, who was hard on him, and that his relationship with Jack was probably at least partially spurred by a yearning for a more affectionate sibling.

Since I originally posted my reply, I've read the Proulx story for the first time. Here's the passage that occurs when Ennis finds the shirts, which I've italicized where I think the wording is germane to this discussion:

"It was his own plaid shirt, lost, he'd thought, long ago in some damn laundry, his dirty shirt, the pocket ripped, buttons missing, stolen by Jack and hidden here inside Jack's own shirt, the pair like two skins, one inside the other, two in one. He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands."

One final detail that might be worth recollecting: In the story, Ennis and his wife live unhappily in an apartment over a laundry, and it is to this place that Jack returns, four years after the Brokeback Mountain summer, to rekindle his relationship with Ennis. Clearly, too, Jack would rather "go to hell," as he says just before their first coupling, than wash out the bloody shirt "in some damn laundry."

Re: Thank you, too,...
by - CaseyCornelius (Sun Jan 1 2006 19:49:49 )

UPDATED Mon Jan 2 2006 13:03:11
bkamberger:

The passage you quote from the story is very compelling and has convinced me that it does indeed allude to a Bruderschaftich or Bruderschaft-like relationship between Jack and Ennis. I've wanted to consider it and will join you willingly in assenting to that point. My God, just your quoting the passage reminds me what a heart-rending image Proulx has created, destined to be a locus classicus for the symbolic tragic male love story of our time.
The 'two in one' has just now suggested to me the image from Plato's 'Symposium' in which there is a discussion of why we fall in love with various persons - an absurd simplification being the idea that we were all originally part of a double-entitiy being which later was split into two, spending the rest of our lives trying to match up to our corresponding half, whether it be another male or another female. I'm tempted to link this allusion to the unified two-in-one image of the shirts, but will have to give it more thought.
I know we'll both continue pursuing this as I'm sure there must be a more pertinent and exact allusion which we might come across.
However, in the mean time, I'll join you in affirming the Bruderschaft of Ennis and Jack as we form 'ein EnnisundJackebruderschaftichkeitgesellschaftchen' in discussion with you !!

And congratulations are due to you for bumping this thread over the 100 post mark. Long may it thrive.

Re: Thank you, too,...
by - flashframe777 (Sun Jan 1 2006 20:19:12 )

Perhaps the very act of joining the two shirts together is the talisman that brought them back together.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 2 2006 12:10:31 )

adamx013:

You and I share our excitement over this shot with Roberta Maxwell herself -- the actress playing Jack's mother.
In one of the threads containing a recent Jeffrey Wells interview with her, she recalls herself being shocked by that very shot when viewing the film for the very first time on December 9, turning to the person next to her and saying, "Is that MY hand?" It was so striking a camera move she didn't even recognize her own gesture.

You're very kind...

by - bkamberger (Mon Jan 2 2006 12:56:20 )

UPDATED Wed Jan 4 2006 09:56:23
...to acknowledge my point, especially since I didn't even mention that "Jack, I swear..." is said when Ennis is looking at the shirts and could be seen as his way of finally committing to the Bruderschaft. Interestingly, Proulx tells us, "Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind."

The Aristophanes story in the Symposium is a very interesting correlation, particularly since the playwright emphasized that the double-people were originally back to back. Much is made throughout the story of Jack and Ennis not looking at each other, and it's hinted this is because, deep down, they can't face the fact that their "double" is a man. Even Jack's cherished memory of Ennis' tenderness is of an embrace from behind. Ang Lee, of course, repeatedly positions Jack and Ennis in ways that suggest this lack of face-to-face contact, and such a shot is used in the film's poster.

It's also ironic that Aristophanes called the double-males "children of the sun," and yet most of the terrible things that happen in the course of the Ennis-Jack relationship occur in the sunlight: Aguirre spying on them, their farewell before the four-year separation, Alma seeing the kiss, Jack's disappointment after Ennis' divorce, all of the men's violent quarrels with each other, Jack's death. On the other hand, Ennis' violently "macho" outbursts when Jack is not present all occur in the nighttime, as does Jack's patronizing of Mexican hustlers as a way of secretly satisfying his cravings while maintaining the facade of straightness. As you may recall, Aristophanes called men-women, or the original heterosexuals, "children of the moon."

Re: You're very kind...
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 2 2006 13:12:55 )

UPDATED Mon Jan 2 2006 15:38:46
bkamberger:

The shirts; Ennis's " Jack, I swear --": der Bruderschaft
proven in spades !!

Quod erat demonstrandum

Moreover, thanks for 'torquing' this discussion back in line with the original 'Classical references' thread title with the amplification and clarity you provided to the Aristophanes/Plato 'Symposium' allusion.

Re: You're very kind...
by - pyotr-3 (Mon Jan 2 2006 18:08:27 )

This discussion must be read by all who see this movie...

TOoP/Bruce · « **Reply #5 on:** June 16, 2007, 07:13:51 am »

Re: You're very kind...
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 2 2006 21:07:54 )

bkamberger:

I had originally thought that the Aristophanic account from 'The Symposium' might provide a light tangential diversion. However, it's gotten serious. Your reference to my favorite passage in the story [which I've committed to memory I've returned to it so often] where Jack cherishes that 'distant memory' of being embraced from behind by Ennis sent me back to a passage in 'The Symposium' referring to what happens when a male half of an original being meets its corresponding half:

"And when one of them meets with his other half, the actual half of himself,[ ]the pair are lost in amazement of love and friendship and intimacy, and will not be out of the other's sight, as I may say, even for a moment: [ ]
For the intense yearning which each of them has towards the other does not appear to be the desire of lover's intercourse, but of something else which the soul of either evidently desires and cannot tell, and of which it has only a dark and doubtful presentiment."

I can't help but hear a resounding correspondence with Proulx's passage:
"What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and held him close, the silent embrace signifying some SHARED and SEXLESS hunger." [emphasis mine]

With this evidence and truth of the intense yearning on both their parts for each other, is there any possibility that Jack could ever have found a way to 'quit' Ennis or that Ennis could ever hope that Jack would 'let him be'? They were bound together, intertwined as much as that image of the shirts which is their talisman. Being forced apart, 'out of each other's [constant] sight' by societal rejection and intolerance of the possibility of their love and spiritual union created the tragedy.

There, Symposium and Bruderschaft are integrated.
I had first thought that Proulx's image of the intertwined shirts might have derived from another literary or mythic allusion which might still have occured to us. The more I consider it, though, it appears sui generis, a true original. Fantastic !!

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - Xodiac-sky (Tue Jan 3 2006 09:31:52 )

Did you cry writing this, because I cried reading it.

All I can say is Wow!

Thank you for making that connection, if that was not an intentional parallel in this movie then its amazing how the subconcious effects our creative decisions.

.
by - bkamberger (Tue Jan 3 2006 13:13:25 )

...for the most enlightening and friendly discussion I've had on these boards in many years. I hope we'll continue the discussion after I see Brokeback Mountain again this week, because I certainly don't want to quit you!

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - Shuggy (Tue Jan 3 2006 13:17:17 )

Aeneas says to Dido's ghost, "I swear by every oath that hell can muster, I swear I left you against my will. The law of God--the law that sends me now through darkness, bramble, rot and profound night--unyielding drove me; nor could I have dreamed that in my leaving I would hurt you so".

Thank you so much! I've been racking my brains trying to think what Ennis would have sworn, and that's IT - except of course that with his background he could have never have got it into words, let alone those words. Wonderful!

"If you can't stand it, you gotta fix it."

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - pyotr-3 (Tue Jan 3 2006 13:51:58 )

I'm not convinced that Ennis thought he had LEFT Jack. Did I miss something? I think he felt as loyal to Jack as he always had.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - vkm91941 (Tue Jan 3 2006 22:17:24 )

UPDATED Tue Jan 3 2006 22:17:54
Thank You for bumping this. I wasn't going to read it, but am so glad I did. What wonderful, moving and carefully thoughtout analysis of the film. I especially like the links to Aeneas. Incredible! Thank You for your sharing your beautiful words.

Forget about what you thought you were and just accept who you are.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - CaseyCornelius (Tue Jan 3 2006 22:31:54 )

If you've only read the first, original post, you're missing about 10 times as much wonderful material from the multitude of other people who responded to it. So check out the replies -- amazing, thoughtful responses. The discussion on this and another of my posts Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move has been nothing short of inspiring and astounding. Everything I've felt this board should be.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - starboardlight (Tue Jan 3 2006 22:46:38 )

wow! i'm stunned at the level of insight. you guys are amazing.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - vkm91941 (Tue Jan 3 2006 23:16:22 )

I have been reading the other posts here and at you other thread. There are some really insightful people posting here and I am impressed and moved and amazed everytime I check in. Thank You again to EVERYONE who thoughtfully posts their feeling, opinions and observations.

Forget about what you thought you were and just accept who you are.

Re: Final Bruderschaft thought
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Jan 4 2006 08:30:32 )

UPDATED Wed Jan 4 2006 08:33:46
bkamberger:

I've appreciated your fine responses, intellect, and sporting attitude immensely as well.

Another Bruderschaft thought and a somewhat tangential one, again, just when I thought it was safely put to bed.
I'd forgotten about the only other direct reference to a Bruderschaft in recent English literature -- the symbolic one between Gerald and Birkin in D.H. Lawrence's 'Women in Love'. Both men refer to their relationship as a symbolic Bruderschaft and the striving and physicality of its expression is baldly stated in their [in]famous, naked wrestling scene. That physical expression links in my mind with the extreme physicality with which Ennis and Jack initially show their own spiritual connection - confusing as it is to both of them. And the Gerald/Birlkin Bruderschaft ends badly as well with Gerald's suicide because of the inability to reconcile his place in the world with his ambiguous sexuality and self-loathing. The opposite character in that work, Birkin, the equivalent of Jack, is the one left to grieve his friend deeply, resolving, in the famous closing lines, that he will pursue his ravenous need for a physical and personal union with a male.

Ah, yes...
by - bkamberger (Wed Jan 4 2006 09:00:52 )

...always nice to be reminded of that wrestling scene, especially as enacted in the film version with Oliver Reed and the Adonis-like Alan Bates, may they both R.I.P.

Although I can understand why you'd equate the conflicted, self-loathing Gerald with Ennis and the more open-hearted and sexually needy Birkin with Jack, it is ironic that the fates of Lawrence's characters are the reverse of their Proulxian counterparts. "Jack, I swear..." may not be as articulate as Birkin's vow, but I think it voices a similar emotion, albeit pledging a different course of action.

Re: Final Bruderschaft thought
by - pkdetroit (Wed Jan 4 2006 09:11:30 )

Damn you bkamberger! I was doin' just fine readin' one of the great discussions on these boards, miraculously troll free...then you have to go and include those lines about the shirts, and I had to gulp down a sob and quickly think of something else so I could continue reading without crying.

I too wondered if the figurine Ennis finds in Jack's room was the finished version of what he was carving up on Brokeback.
I don't believe the father "knew" Jack was gay. I think he found all that talk about coming back to the ranch, first with Ennis then the rancher neighbor, odd and confusing, but I don't think he would have made the connection to "gay". He considered his son a flighty dreamer, wierd and "too good" for the family. It is surprising what parents do not know about their sons and daughters.

"It was the Summer that Sebastian and I went to the Incantadas"

There's a powerful line in the Proulx story...
by - bkamberger (Wed Jan 4 2006 09:54:33 )

UPDATED Sat Jan 14 2006 11:35:29
...that can't quite be captured on film, alas. As Ennis is speaking to Lureen on the phone, Proulx says, "He wanted to curse her for letting Jack die on the dirt road." It's irrational to blame her for this, of course, but it does make sense that Ennis might transfer to her his own sense of guilt for not being there when Jack needed him -- both at this specific moment and throughout his life.

A lot of people have speculated that Lureen's father might have had a hand in Jack's death, but that's possible only in the film, since Proulx mentions that the father had died by that point.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - pauzhaan (Wed Jan 4 2006 14:02:57 )

Thank you for the "essay". I'm a voracious reader, but I rarely come up with subtle interpretations like this so I appreciate those who do. I'm a "straight" 53 yo mother, spent 10years in the Air Force.

For two years at an Air Force Base in Upstate New York in the 70's I was a "girlfriend" to a wonderful gay guy. He was a good friend and I had a great time. I go to dress up and go to social and military functions with him and when ever he left the country for trips of 2-3 weeks he left me his 427 T-top Corvette to drive. His friends teased me about being a personal "fag-hag". It was a wonderful period of my life. I had a handsome male friend who could really dance and who didn't put demands on me and who was always ready to listen. He was not unlike Jack and Ennis in that he was a very rugged "manly" man.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Jan 4 2006 20:57:31 )

UPDATED Wed Jan 4 2006 21:02:04
abydosianchulac2:

I find Ang Lee's use of color symbolism throughout the film consistent and fascinating. A lot of this has been discussed in earlier posts in this thread and in two other threads: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move
and Spoiler: The Color Blue

The association of a 'wheat brown' color with Ennis and the 'sky or indigo blue' with Jack is very consistent throughout the film. And it's a symbolic way of Lee showing their emotional lives intertwining.
Little details such as Ennis wearing a blue wool cap in the snow-tobogganing scene with Alma, immediately after his marriage as a reminder of Jack and Brokeback. The fact that they end up driving vehicles with colors which match their respective 'beloveds' - Jack a brown truck, Ennis a blue truck. etc.

As I've posted in the Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene thread, a lot of this derives from Lee's interest in the cinematic techniques of Michelangelo Antonioni, who also employed extensive color symbolism in his middle period films.

The summation of this in Brokeback is the final shot you mention of the golden grain [Ennis] the blue sky [with which Jack has always been associated in the film] and the green - the final color suggesting to me and to another poster naun - the generational renewal in Alma, Jr. betrothal to a man who she knows loves her at the same age of 19, the age Ennis was when his loving bond was initiated with Jack.

A few thoughts, which could turn into a lively discussion. I feel that this board needs to consolidate some of the scattered technical discussion about the film, even at the risk of duplicating some of the material many of us have conceived and shared.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - Darrell-13 (Wed Jan 4 2006 21:03:31 )

Sometimes when you buy a DVD you will have an audio track on the DVD where the story is narrated in full detail, making all of the pieces as clear as a bell.

If any story deserved one of these audio tracks - it is Brokeback Mountain. I hope to God that they add such an audio track to the DVD when it comes out. It bothers me not knowing all of the circumstances surrounding the death, what the "I swear..." was really meant to say, and several other pieces of the movie along the way that could be read several different ways.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Jan 5 2006 22:59:33 )

UPDATED Fri Jan 6 2006 06:57:07
I can understand the desire of a lot of viewers to have more of the film made clearer. However, it seems to me that Ang Lee, Larry McMurtry, Diana Ossana, and, Annie Proulx have deliberately tried to make the story/ film as subtle, ambiguous, and, hence, as psychologically fluid as possible. That's why it works so profoundly on the psyches of persons who give in to its riches. And why it gets so 'under the skin'. Many of us have experienced the way it works its way into our thoughts, hovering in our minds for hours and days after a viewing. I've heard about this effect on other friends and anyone else who's seen it.
It's what makes Brokeback so singular and different from any other film in recent memory - the pacing, its patient yielding of its riches, and its inexplicable perfection in weaving so many different emotional strands which don't seem complex but inevitable. I've read that Proulx and Lee deliberately wanted the reader and audience to fill in the answers to the questions they raise.

I don't see how a commentary or an attempt to explain the details of how it works could be successful without cutting out or denying so much of what we experience in seeing it. Part of the film's success is that we can read more things into it, because of its ambiguity. Look at what we've come up with on the thread.

I can't see any of the film-makers wanting to do anything to jeopardize that. They've all gone out of their way to counter normal expectations, thematic and film conventions, and the normal 'answers'.
I'd prefer to be left with the questions they raise.

Re: There's a powerful line in the Proulx story...
by - amgineurt (Fri Jan 6 2006 13:51:44 )

...that can't quite be captured on film, alas. As Ennis is speaking to Lureen on the phone, Proulx says, "He wanted to curse her for letting Jack die on the dirt road." It's irrational to blame her for this, of course, but it does make sense that Ennis might transfer to her his own sense of guilt for not being there when Jack needed him -- both at this specific moment and throughout his life.

I think this is very significant, as it was precicely this end that Enis feared. He couldn't even consider Jack's idea of having a life together because of the depth of this fear. He gave up the possibility of happiness for it, and I think to him it makes the sacrifice of it all for naught. It's guilt and the idea that what could have been should have been if this was how it would end anyway.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - naun (Fri Jan 6 2006 15:10:28 )

UPDATED Fri Jan 6 2006 15:17:37
I don't see how a commentary or an attempt to explain the details of how it works could be successful without cutting out or denying so much of what we experience in seeing it. Part of the film's success is that we can read more things into it, because of its ambiguity. Look at what we've come up with on the thread.

Casey,

While I can only agree that pat answers would cramp our experience of the film, I'd like to think it would be possible to present a commentary that instead opens people's eyes to the range of nuances that are implied in the film. I can't tell you how much the discussions here, not least your own contributions, have enriched my own experience of this film -- and of film generally, as a medium. Brokeback is one of the comparatively few works of high art that touch people from every walk of life. I'd like others, the people who will be watching the film on DVD in decades to come, to have these possibilities opened up to them as they have been to me.

If anything, it seems to me that Brokeback would benefit more than most films from having not just one but multiple commentary tracks, each examining the film from a different perspective.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - Darrell-13 (Fri Jan 6 2006 20:05:33 )

I can't see any of the film-makers wanting to do anything to jeopardize that. They've all gone out of their way to counter normal expectations, thematic and film conventions, and the normal 'answers'.
I'd prefer to be left with the questions they raise.
Not me. I think a large number of people have seen the film more than once. Besides, once you buy the DVD, the mission has already been accomplished! There is no need to withhold the answers at that point. Whether the answers are there or not I won't buy two of the DVDs. Sales should not be affected by this. Other movies have had a narrated audio track, movies that were ambiguous in places and the narrator clarifies why things are the way they are. I really don't think this will hurt sales.

Maybe though, it's possible that Proulx and Ang want to haunt people with this movie forever, and will leave it out. That would be sad.

TOoP/Bruce · « **Reply #6 on:** June 16, 2007, 07:16:39 am »

I SWEAR I said this 10 days ago--but it's not there.
by - rvognar01 (Sat Jan 7 2006 19:21:46 )

The scholarship and sensitivity displayed by the three main participants in this discussion nearly brought the tears to my eyes which the movie has so far failed to do.

"You come see us again"--Jack's mother

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - starboardlight (Sat Jan 7 2006 19:44:16 )

i will have to respectfully disagree with you on this. I do not want those questions answered. so much of this film is built around mirroring Ennis's experience. i think the not knowing is very much part of what Ennis went through. That sense of being tortured by not having the answer is very much part of life, his and ours. I don't want that taken away.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - Darrell-13 (Sat Jan 7 2006 21:02:56 )

i will have to respectfully disagree with you on this. I do not want those questions answered. so much of this film is built around mirroring Ennis's experience. i think the not knowing is very much part of what Ennis went through. That sense of being tortured by not having the answer is very much part of life, his and ours. I don't want that taken away.
You have a right to your opinion. I thought it would be a good idea for those of us who would like more details of what was going on.

One thing to keep in mind is that if the audio dialogue is not placed onto the DVD, there is nothing that you can do to put it there later. Yet if the narrative is there, you don't need to play it if you don't want to.

I have seen narrative on DVDs that were totally transparent. Who would need it explained? Yet this movie I think would need some things explained. I read the short story, and it does explain "some" things a little more than the movie does. I find that quite interesting. I actually enjoy the movie better when I know what is really going on.

Re: I SWEAR I said this 10 days ago--but it's not there.
by - Darrell-13 (Sat Jan 7 2006 21:10:18 )

The scholarship and sensitivity displayed by the three main participants in this discussion nearly brought the tears to my eyes which the movie has so far failed to do.
It's funny that you should say that. I took a friend with me to one of the showings. I think it was my 2nd time seeing it. He didn't find it all that sad until I explained to him what was going on. I am not sure if he was daydreaming, or maybe he was preoccupied with something heavy on his mind. In any case, he did not even remember the first scene where Ennis said he forgot his shirt. He did not know what the story was behind the shirts. He was upset after we had a long talk about the things that he did not find clear. He also mentioned that he thought it seemed a little unreal because of the fact that the guys got together for sex so quickly after meeting on the mountain.

The thing about a movie is that you do not know how much time has passed between one segment and the next. I do know that they were together enough to talk personal matters with each other, and Jack grabbed Ennis' hand and put it onto his hard-on under the covers which I'm sure he would not do if he was not 100% comfortable with Ennis. So one has to assume that they shared a lot of emotional comfort between each other at that point.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - starboardlight (Sat Jan 7 2006 21:19:35 )

but being on the DVD commentary, it will make its way into the dialogue about the film, on this board and elsewhere. whether I turn the commentary on or not, I'll come across it eventually, and will have to concede to that opinion given on that DVD commentary. At that point, what we think happened will not be opinions anymore. People will cite that commentary as source for definitive answer. I'd have to withdraw from the discourse entirely to hold on to my perception, and that would make me a sad mac.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - Darrell-13 (Sat Jan 7 2006 21:41:54 )

but being on the DVD commentary, it will make its way into the dialogue about the film, on this board and elsewhere. whether I turn the commentary on or not, I'll come across it eventually, and will have to concede to that opinion given on that DVD commentary. At that point, what we think happened will not be opinions anymore. People will cite that commentary as source for definitive answer. I'd have to withdraw from the discourse entirely to hold on to my perception, and that would make me a sad mac.
By the time the DVD is released, I think many of us will be over the initial impact of the story. We will never forget the story - guaranteed, but we will be over the sadness of the story.

If they don't release the commentary on the DVD when it is released this year, I am hoping that once they start producing HD-DVDs that they will re-author the DVD to have the commentary on it. That will be far enough away.

Even the Beatles were questioned about some of their mysterious lyrics and they freely told people what the answers were. Their music still thrived. At the end of Strawberry Fields Forever it sounded like they were saying "I've Buried Paul" or "I'm Going Home". He's actually saying, "Cranberry Sauce". Look at Eleanor Rigby - wearing a smile that she keeps in a jar by the door, who is it for? Most of that stuff has been explained, but it's still damn good. I think Brokeback Mountain is a great movie. Whether the commentary comes out or not, it will never take that away from the movie. I'm sure even with the commentary there will still be things to debate. Debating is pointless though unless you can find a definitive answer. Why debate something that nobody can prove yes or no? Isn't that a waste of time?

Re: I SWEAR I said this 10 days ago--but it's not there.
by - pyotr-3 (Sun Jan 8 2006 08:27:01 )

Some people have very odd misperceptions about what they see in ANY movie. This is inevitable, I suppose.

Re: I SWEAR I said this 10 days ago--but it's not there.
by - Darrell-13 (Sun Jan 8 2006 08:54:36 )

>>Some people have very odd misperceptions about what they see in ANY movie. This is inevitable, I suppose.

Yes, and sometimes it is these interpretations that makes us like the movie. I think most of what was in Brokeback Mountain was pretty obvious. I don't think there are any big misinterpretations about that story. The only things that are ambiguous is what lead up to Jack's beating and just what did Lureen really know? Whatever became of Ennis? Whatever became of Jack's ashes?

Re: I SWEAR I said this 10 days ago--but it's not there.
by - hibbler (Sun Jan 8 2006 16:02:41 )


Whatever became of Jack's ashes?

Jack's dad said they were going in the family plot, remember?

Re: One of the most brilliant sequences in movie history
by - juliaz3 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 08:38:08 )

If Judi Dench could get a Best Supporting Oscar for her ~9-minute role in "Shakespeare in Love", then certainly someone in the Academy should wake up and see that Roberta Maxwell deserves one for this role. She is astounding.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - juliaz3 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 08:41:37 )

I totally agree Casey. There are times when I've really enjoyed a director's (or other) commentary, but some films are to me so special and so complete in themselves that I've had no desire to have any "questions answered", although I am also willing to allow those who want to dig deeper in this way their space to do so. Just don't anybody tell me what the director/actors/cinematographer said!

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - juliaz3 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 08:43:24 )

You bet.

--Ennis's reply to Jack's first postcard.

Re: One of the most brilliant sequences in movie history
by - Flickfan-3 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 10:59:10 )

her performance was illuminating--wonder how long she and Heath rehersed it--he said in interview that Ang Lee has long pre-production period but no instruction on set--
did anyone notice how her eyes were always shot so that there was a light gleaming in them--they should have been dead from the lack of love in her life--but they were bright and full of something that energized the viewer--at least it did me

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - quiplash 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 13:34:15 )

"Ang Lee's brilliant final shot juxtaposes the closing closet door of Ennis's Brokeback shrine to Jack's eternal memory with the wind-swept fields of ripening golden grain visible through the trailer window and establishes a supreme ambiguity. Are the fields an image of renewal and hope OR an image of intractible inevitability? A symbol of the emotionally limited world which Ennis will inhabit the rest of his days, giving obeisance to the memory of Jack OR a foretaste of the 'Elysian fields' where Ennis/Aeneas will one day be re-united with his beloved?"

Wonderful, insightful post. Reading about the uncanny parallels you outline, it gave me a chill up the back of my head.

I caught the contrast of the final shot as well. In my review of BBM(http://www.ryanschultz.com/blog/archives/2006/01/movie_review_br.html), I said:

"Heath Ledger as ranch hand Ennis Del Mar deserves an Oscar for Best Actor. When he was on-screen he was mesmerizing. Never missed a beat. During my second viewing of Brokeback Mountain I made a point of watching Heath Ledger's face during the first half hour of the movie, and he reminds me of nothing so much as a frightened child. The only times I ever saw him with his face relaxed were when he was with Alma during the first four years, when he was with his daughter Alma Jr., and of course many of the times he was with Jack. A glimpse of the Ennis that could have been.

There's one scene at the very end of the movie that caught me off guard. If you blinked you missed it, but there's a shot of the Brokeback Mountain postcard pinned to the closet door of Ennis' trailer, which is then closed, revealing in its place the view out his trailer window: flat plain. Ennis has literally given up his mountaintop experience (and the potential to continue it) for a sad, flat life. This movie is all about giving up on your happiness and your dreams because of fear of what others may think, an issue of particular resonance for gay men my age or older."

Again, thank you for sharing your insights with us.

TOoP/Bruce · « **Reply #7 on:** June 16, 2007, 07:19:06 am »

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - flics 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 14:23:03 )

UPDATED Wed Jan 11 2006 14:24:07
Thank you Casey for this astonishing and truly inspiring reading of the film, and indeed that goes for the many other sensitive analyses. I was overwhelmed by the film, it rushed in on me in wave after wave of unexpected beauty and sorrow. I'd read and loved the story, but curiously had left it somewhere far away. Ennis and Jack were not with me when I first went to see the film. It moved me in ways I honestly did not think possible - I'm saying that I dipped into reserves of emotion I did not even know that I had. For the first time ever I returned to the cinema to see it a second time, in a way trying to come to terms with it, like I was laying flowers at a grave. And I find myself crying throughout the day at the thought of just a frame or two in the film, or a few bars from the soundtrack. Ennis saying "Jack, I swear". I wake up hearing it. I am sure this will pass. But I have never been grief-stricken by a film before.
I came to IMDB looking for solace and was saddened by the cretinous responses, until I came here. I hadn't seen the Aeneid references but you are spot on. They are unmistakeable once you are alerted to them. It seems clear that a course in film could be based on this one film! And this thread has helped me to start clicking the thinking part of my brain into action and enjoying all the subtle beautiful details that make up the film. It helping me to heal, and to feel like the sensible and normal person I (mostly) am.

And of course it's good to be humbled in front of great great art.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - nene2 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 14:41:23 )

Extraordinary discussion. I hope it continues forever. I have seen the film four times, plan to see it again and again, can enjoy it just for its "musical" structure. Lee's cinematography, blocking, pacing, construction and succession of shots are simply extraordinary. And then there's the story! Endlessly fascinating and satisfying. There's so much to think and talk about.

I am surprised that, as far as I have seen, nobody in this thread has mentioned the screenplay recently published by Scribner. The dialogue and scene descriptions exactly as they occur in the film - plus the original short story and wonderful essays, written just for this publication, by Proulx, McMurtry and Ossana. It's almost like having the DVD!

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - spottedreptile 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 14:45:49 )

I'm trying to find the thread that was talking about the windows being open and Jack being the wind. When I saw it the other night I was really struck by Ennis opening Jack's bedroom window - it seemed very significant, as though he was letting Jack out or letting the wind in and I can't remember where I read someone else's thoughts about this.

There is also a line Aguirre speaks about "look what the wind blew in" re Jack. I'm guessing Jack is the Element of wind here? Makes sense - wind, sky, shifting, ephemeral, never grounded etc.

Anyone help?

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - ashleyjbear 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 15:01:53 )

"...OR a foretaste of the 'Elysian fields' where Ennis/Aeneas will one day be re-united with his beloved?"

Elysium. In Greek mythology, the abode of the blessed, paradise. Situated at the end of the world it is here that those chosen by the gods are sent to.

I live in Paris, where lovers, and just about every pilgrim in search of beauty, will march at some point down the Champs Elysees: tr:'Elysian Fields'

In the days of Louis XIV, these were actually just fields, but in order to continue the Grand Axis from the Louvre toward his own ideal sactuary, Versailles, it was he who concieved the Champs Elysees as they are today, an avenue of timeless grandeur.

by - jlilya 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 15:12:31 )

UPDATED Wed Jan 11 2006 15:37:16
When bkamberger said that the double-people were originally back to back, and then they were separated. Broken in two from the back, Broke-back, Brokeback!!!?? A good reason for the title?

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 22:17:04 )

quiplash:

Thanks for sharing your insights as well. I've expanded my thoughts regarding that final shot, adding and debating other layers of meaning with some of the posters, particularly 'naun' in the discussion above. I say with absolute humility that if you've only read my original post at the begining of this thread you are missing about 10 times as much wonderful material in the subsequent posts and discussions. There's a whole solar system of topics branching off in the numerous replies. Also recommend you check out a related thread "Jack and Ennis-Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move" for more discussion of what I see as Michelangelo Antonioni touches throughout the film, particularly the final shot, which is a summing up of several themes and visual motifs.
Check out the other posts.
It's what this board should be about.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - flashframe777 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 22:24:47 )

UPDATED Fri Jan 13 2006 20:50:11
I'm trying to find the thread that was talking about the windows being open and Jack being the wind. When I saw it the other night I was really struck by Ennis opening Jack's bedroom window - it seemed very significant, as though he was letting Jack out or letting the wind in and I can't remember where I read someone else's thoughts about this.

There is also a line Aguirre speaks about "look what the wind blew in" re Jack. I'm guessing Jack is the Element of wind here? Makes sense - wind, sky, shifting, ephemeral, never grounded etc.
______________________

Hey Spotted,

That was my post. But it was deleted. I was waiting for a reason to repost it. Hope Casey doesn't mind my posting it below:

"The Straw That Broke The Camel's Back"

The elements of Earth, Air, Fire and Water majorly influence Chinese Philopshy. My interest became how Ang Lee may have applied those in his directing of BBM. One of the actors, maybe Heath, talked about how Ang did a ceremony to the four corners before shooting each scene. Of course the four corners represent the above-mentioned four elements. So today, I sought to find out where they were placed, especially when they were represented in human form. I don’t have a good grasp of Taoism, and can only reference it in a very Western context…

I am not saying this was all intentional on Lee’s part. What I am trying to examine is how Superconsciousness, or the powers that be, may intervene and influence the affairs of man.

Earth – This is Ennis Del Mar. And what an extreme challenge we have here. Frankly because his name means Island by The Sea . He is the Earth engulfed by the Water. And water is the element of time. Ennis, the earth, at his pinnacle is a Mountain. Brokeback Moutain is the highpoint of Ennis Del Mar. His handicap – no man is an island.

Lee places a curious formation of salt, sugar, and pepper shakers on a table in front of Alma, the morning she waits at the table for Ennis to come back from his tryst with Jack Twist. The three, forgive me, Condiments, form the shape of a Mountain, not unlike Brokeback, next to which is a cup of black coffee. It speaks of Alma’s experience with Ennis – bittersweet. Mountains are immovable, unchanging, at least in the moment of now. And so is Ennis Del Mar.

Air - This is Jack Twist. Jack, uncontained and ungrounded by Earth, moves from place to place, rodeo to rodeo. In the first few scenes we see the wind blowing the grasses next to a moving train. Off in the distance we see a moving truck. The wind kicks up a storm as Jack drives into view. This is Jack Twist, the wind. Jack represents the freedom of the wind, and the danger of a tornado (Twist...Twister).

As a testimony to the sign of air, Joe Aguirre says point blank to Jack Twist, upon his third attempt seeking work on Brokeback, “Well, look what the wind blew in!” Windows originate from wind. Later on that.

Fire – the element, is warmth and passion. What happens when something touches fire? In a literal sense, one gets burned. In a figurative sense, one get’s tested. If the test is passed, one becomes pure. The element of fire represents the love affair between Ennis and Jack. The fire almost dies down in front of the tent that first night, but it’s stoked by body heat moments later.

Later when the men part after Brokeback, some part of that fire was exchanged between the two and radiated like those campfire embers for 4 years. The moment Jack and Ennis reunite we see a spark, a flame, and a wildfire.

Water : In this story, water represents the element of time, passing slowly, passing quickly, water under the bridge. It works against Jack and Ennis in the smaller picture, but in the bigger one it etches their love into something as solid as stone.

In one of the most powerful scenes Jack stands in front of a river…a river that previously reflected a mirror image of two magnificent mountains, and says, as if to himself, “Never enough time, never enough.”

Character Flaws revealed and resolved:

In a back to back sequence Ang Lee uncovers the central flaws of Jack and Ennis.

Jack’s flaw is recklessness. The scene where Jack hits on the rodeo clown, who, by the way, is dressed in clothing similar in style and color to those that Ennis wore. Jack get’s rejected, and possibly even exposed due to his lack of judgment, and inability to gauge a correct degree of discretion. Actions of the sort can be a life-threatening experience for a gay man in a sh*tkicker bar.

Ennis’ flaw is revealed in the next scene. Insulted by fowl-mouthed greasers, Ennis’ unbridled emotion overcomes him, and causes him to beat the heck out of those guys. Poor Alma seems shocked at Ennis’ rage. Fireworks by the dawn’s early light go off in the background to underscore it.

Recklessness meets up with rage on the last trip shared by Ennis & Jack. Jack’s Mexico recklessness meets Ennis’ uncontrollable rage causing Ennis to shut down and stuff. Jack explodes. Ennis implodes.

Observations:

As Jack dances with Lureen the first night at the kickerclub, he is completely surrounded by temptation in the form of men, ALL, save one, who are dressed like Ennis Del Mar – white patterned rodeo shirt with print and jeans! Just like rodeo clown in an earlier scene. At the end of this scene Jack drops the mask he’s put up for Lureen, and we see the depth of his sorrow. It’s as if he realizes he must submit if he ever hopes to survive in the world around him. Lureen takes the lead from then on out.

Lureen is Ennis in female form. Revolting against Daddy, she snags Jack and takes control from the back seat of the car to the back seat of the business. She, like Ennis, is Earth. She’s practical, a numbers cruncher, an unmovable mountain.

Alma is Jack Twist in female form. She is an idealist, and a demanding one at that. Jack is no different on Brokeback…demanding more than beans, not settling for less than elk. Alma, like Jack, has a set of needs that she seeks to have filled. They move into the town apartment, and the suggestions that Ennis seek better employment.

Finished Before They Began

Both of these marriages were finished long before Jack & Ennis reunite after 4 years. The reason they even do reunite is because Ennis knows its over, and begin’s to withdraw from Alma. Munroe, by this time already had designs on Alma, as witnessed in the store.

Jack knows it’s over mainly because it never really began. Jack & Lureen’s relationship was the inverse of Ennis and Alma’s. Ennis, due to emotional fragmenting, pushed people away. Jack, due to the fragmenting of his family, pulled people to himself to fill the void. Jack & Lureen worked because it was an arrangement. Ennis & Alma didn’t work out because it was a masquerade.

And Monroe – he’s just Ennis with an education, a few more layers of fat, and a few more aspirations. Most importantly, for Alma at least, there was no ring of fire Monroe needed to walk through. Monroe was never tested in the way that Ennis has been.

Numerology and Esoteric Symbols

Alma & Jack’s laundry apartment number is 2. The arcane represented by the number Two, in hebrew is Gimel, or camel. It corresponds to safety. As if a journey through a desert is made with a beast of burden like a camel, horse, burro, mule, etc. Ennis shoots a coyote that was big enough to eat a Camel. He smokes Camel cigs - we see him put 2 packs in his shirt pocket. Brokeback Mountain is symbolic of the last straw...

THE STRAW THAT BROKE THE CAMEL'S BACK.

In arcana 2 is not the number of the lovers, as one might initially think (that would be 6). It is the issue of money and possessions, the electric knife as opposed to the manual knife. That was Alma’s focus in this place.

Ennis’ mailbox at the trailerpark was #17. It reduces numerologically to 8, which means rebirth. It represents a Phoenix, a magic bird of fire, that rises from the ashes of death. Ennis, has certainly walked through the fire, and come out other side.

There are at least 2 phallic symbols that I found, but won’t go into detail. One happens as Jack get’s to ride the winning bull. The other happens the first Tent Night between Jack & Ennis, and involves the strategic placement of a coffee pot.

The Point of No Return

On the final trip together, Jack has pushed past the point of no return. We hear his final plea to Ennis delivered in a vocal register from his younger days, “Truth is, sometimes, I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.” Ladies and Gentlemen, Jack Twist has left the building. Spirit knows the time and place, and this is the foreboding. The shell of Jack that remained did so as a last ditch effort to make a run for the border – to no avail.

With a river in front of him reflecting the element of water, the test of time, we hear him say “Never enough time, never enough”, knowing on some spiritual level that it had run out. Jack heads up to Lightning Flat for the last time in the flesh to help spirit seed his final gift to Ennis…the Brokeback Shirts.

Open A Window, and Let The Light In:

In major arcana a window represents an opportunity for spirit (a higher element of fire) to enter into human consciousness (as opposed to human subconscious). It also symbolizes opening a place in the heart.

Ennis waits excitedly at his own open window looking for the first sign of Jack to drive up for their reunion.

Much later, Ennis ventures up to Jack’s room, in tears, and opens Jack’s window. He sits, as if waiting for a response. Spirit, the spirit of Jack Twist, enters his consciousness, and guides Ennis to a memento of their relationship, 2 shirts hidden in a secret crevice of Jack’s closet. Ennis and Jack intermingled and intertwined.

As Ennis exits the house and stands outside of the door we see above his head, Jack’s still open window, and it’s almost as if Jack stands beside it saying farewell watching over him or perhaps, I will wait for you here until you join me for the next journey.

In the final scene – a picture window of the world, as revealed by Ennis’ closet door closing shut. We can’t really tell if the window is sealed shut or if maybe just the handle is missing. But we do know that Ennis has opened his heart, and when the heart is open, other windows of opportunity can appear at any time.

Is this Ennis’ rebirth, the bird of fire, up from the ashes?

Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

TOoP/Bruce · « **Reply #8 on:** June 16, 2007, 07:23:08 am »

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - CaseyCornelius 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 22:42:31 )

hey flashframe:

Absolutely delighted to have your 'Straw/Camel' post back. I'd searched through the first 80 pages of the board hoping to find it and a link for spotted reptile, but couldn't find it. It's full of wonderful brilliant insights. Bravo!!
Did you, personally, delete it? Or was it deleted by the administrator? I'm thinking that I should copy some of the material here in case it gets deleted by some random action. It's too good to lose.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - flashframe777 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 22:51:03 )

UPDATED Wed Jan 11 2006 23:01:57
I didn't delete it. A lot of threads were gone the next day. I figured imdb was trying to save bandwidth.

BTW - I have been totally into this thread since it first appeared, and really enjoy your thoughts on this Casey.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

(TOoP's note: What none of us knew at the time was that this was the beginning of the silent trolls attacks that brought down thread after thread of incredible postings here... IMDB adminstators stood by as thread after thread in these forums were deleted. In frustration, many of these posters started up and moved to a new site: BetterMost.org)

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - CaseyCornelius 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 23:31:10 )

UPDATED Thu Jan 12 2006 07:04:36
flashframe:

Right back at you. Have appreciated your contributions as well!

I got a little spooked by your experience having your "Straw/Camel" post arbitrarily deleted. When I think of how great it was, to think that it could just disappear is appalling - especially considering the dross which remains on this board.

I've taken the liberty of copying your Straw/Camel post for preservation. Hope you don't mind. As well as the Lake Scene and Classical References posts and replies.
We could write a book.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - Ellemeno 6 days ago (Wed Jan 11 2006 23:35:21 )

"We could write a book."

I have two responses:
1) Do it!!
2) We all have written an encyclopedia, 79,872 posts and counting.

Write the book!

I'll stick with beans............
......................Well, I won't.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - flashframe777 6 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 01:26:32 )

LOL! Of the two of us...you're the true intellect...I'm just groping around in the dark for answers.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - Ellemeno 6 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 02:45:50 )

"I'm just groping around in the dark for answers."

flashframe777, just like Jake in the first tent scene, and look what he found!

I'll stick with beans............
......................Well, I won't.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - spottedreptile 6 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 03:00:23 )

oh my thank you so much Flashframe! I've been looking and looking for that post. How bizarre that it got deleted, maybe by mistake?

Anyway it's just GREAT that you brought it back. I'm going to save it to my hard drive so it won't get lost again.

yeah, that book would be a big 'un.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - naun 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 07:12:23 )

We could write a book.

Casey, flashframe777, it may interest you to know that somebody apparently is planning to edit a volume of essays on Brokeback Mountain. It's mentioned right at the end of the article linked below. Perhaps you could contribute to the book?

http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2005/12/15/news/wyoming/326c9c98ce1669d3872570d70075314f.txt

Flashframe777, thanks for reposting your earth/air/fire/water analysis, which has been a thrill to read. I missed it the first time. The equation of water, in the form of the passing river, with the passage of time hadn't occurred to me. I suppose you are thinking of the saying about never stepping in the same river twice, and the two lovers never recapturing their time on Brokeback Mountain. Previously I'd associated the water with the idea of purity and guiltlessness, which I suppose is a fairly obvious association to make.

I'd also never noticed the parallel between the two window scenes, but had been intrigued by Ennis' action of opening the window. Your interpretation makes wonderful sense of it, and also of the shots that follow in that scene, which, as someone pointed out on this board, subliminally suggest Jack's presence in the room. The air/wind idea adds something to that final shot in the movie as well, where we see the stalks swaying in the breeze.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 07:22:47 )

ashleyjbear:

I know the Grand Axis well. On a visit this past summer I walked from the Louvre through the Arche de Triomphe to the Grande Arche of La Defense marvelling at the Grand Perspective and the vision of both Louis XIV and the Grand Travaux of Francois Mitterand.
However, walking past the current megastores on the Champs Elysees it's hard to reconcile the vision of Elysium [Greek derivation] or the interchangeable Elysian Fields [Anglicized Latin derivation via French] with your description of the original whether Attic or Parisian.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - goldilocks_78 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 07:27:37 )

Casey Cornelius (and all others):

Thank you so much for your insightful comments and all your interpretations. This might be a never-ending thread! I actually spent hours reading through it and it has been among the most meaningful spent time I can think of. People like you make it worth coming back to this board for a high-altitude spiritual experience once in a while. This topic deserves to be remembered and if it is not a good idea to have commentaries on the DVD, then at least this written discussion could surely have been published with the DVD, hell yeah. It is true that the immediate experience of seeing a movie is each person’s own. Also, details of a story can have a different meaning to the author, the moviemaker and the viewer. However, to hear other people’s interpretations enriches the experience. I think that many people who see this movie for the first time just do not see the significance of all the little things and come back saying “What was the fuzz about? This was just another boring, slow movie where nothing really happened.” Reading a discussion like this leaves me in awe of the depths of this movie and of Ang Lee’s genius. Your comment also added substance to my sombre and unsettling feeling about the whole scene with Ennis in Lightning Flat. This was the part of the movie that I think worked most profoundly on my psyche, and left me disturbed. And it is unbelievable that there are so many things I have not yet noticed after two viewings. This movie is a great piece of art and can be seen over and over again, each time noticing significant details and use of symbols, each time adding new depths. Oh, I have to go and watch it again.

What amazes me the most about the making of the movie is how well they have kept it in line with the original short-story. Imagine, such a sparsely written story, with such huge depths. And everything that is added just enriches it and makes it into something bigger. And discussing it makes it into something overwhelming. Funny, for instance, how this one discussion is already far longer than the short-story…

While you are into use of symbolism though, I would like to add something that I am surprised hasn’t yet been mentioned, which is the hats. (Or have I just missed it? If so, I’m sorry). I don’t know if it is far-fetched or just too obvious, but we once earlier discussed the significance of the hats. The hats seem to be used as shields to hide themselves behind, emotionally. At their first meeting, it is obvious that Jack cannot get through and get to know Ennis, as his face is completely hidden beneath his hat. In the second tent scene, Jack takes Ennis’ hat and puts it to the ground, i.e. putting down Ennis’ defenses. When they say goodbye after their descent from Brokeback and Ennis says he won’t return the next summer, the until then open Jack closes down and returns inside himself, dropping his head, looking down and disappearing behind his hat. When they reunite, Ennis does not wear a hat. And, on my second viewing, I noticed another interesting detail: In the scene by the campfire where, at first, Ennis is lying on his back on the ground, hatless, completely at ease, saying that he is thanking his lucky star [for Jack not bringing the harmonica…] and so on, then Jack says: “You know it could be like this, always..” and proposes to start a ranch together etc…. Right away, Ennis sits up, takes his hat on and hides himself again, closes up completely, starts mumbling. “I told you, it ain’t gonna be that way”.

These are just immediate thoughts by a non-scholar though… but it is thrilling to think of that probably nothing is accidental and everything is there for a purpose.

Again, thank you so much for creating and contributing to this beautiful thread! (and BUMP away)

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - goldilocks_78 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 07:39:00 )

There is also a line Aguirre speaks about "look what the wind blew in" re Jack. I'm guessing Jack is the Element of wind here? Makes sense - wind, sky, shifting, ephemeral, never grounded etc.
Wow, thanks for bringing in that line! I smiled to myself when watching that as all I could think about was Donnie Darko's father saying: "Look what the cat drew in!" Didn't know if that was an intentional parallell or not.

Seems to me that people's immediate interpretations to this movie are on somewhat different levels... What a joy that we can go to this board and get some more substance to our own experiences...

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - flashframe777 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 09:12:23 )

Goldilocks...Great commentary on the hats.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - adammc80 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 09:23:21 )

Ennis ascends the deathly, bare stairs to Jack's room where he finds the only true repository of any of the memories of his childhood, the core of his personality. The bare room looking out over the dusty plain and down "the only road" he had every known is heart-breaking. A simple cot for a bed. The rest of the room consists of reminders of Jack's failed dreams. A desk and chair where he failed to make an impression as a scholar. A cowboy figurine is a mocking reminder of his failure to achieve his dream of becoming a cowboy himself. The small .22 hanging in a wooden rack is a mockery of his lack of marksmanship evident earlier in the film. The only thing representing anything of value he might have achieved is the iconic/cult object of his true and abiding love for Ennis - the two shirts hidden away from the prying eyes of Jack's father and the rest of the world. Only his Mother would have been party to their significance.

This part of your post moved me to tears, CaseyCornelius. I never thought of it like that. Absolutely heart-breaking.

TOoP/Bruce · « **Reply #9 on:** June 16, 2007, 07:25:40 am »

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - nene2 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 13:03:57 )

Regarding hats, note that in the scene in the house with Jack's parents, Ennis is hatless, neither wears nor carries a hat. For the first time we encounter Ennis Del Mar - and Heath Ledger - stripped bare, in the rough, exposed and cruelly open. He is finally ready to confront Jack with total honesty.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - ashleyjbear 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 13:07:03 )

"...I walked from the Louvre through the Arche de Triomphe to the Grande Arche of La Defense marvelling at the Grand Perspective and the vision of both Louis XIV and the Grand Travaux of Francois Mitterand."

This is precisely the sentiment of 'timeless grandeur' I intended, not the 'megastores'. I think we're in violent agreeement...

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - The_Naked_Librarian 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 13:59:40 )

That moment when you first see Jack's room, how spare and mean it is, is as piercing as anything I've seen in a movie. It only occurred to me later how very like it Ennis's trailer is--even down to the shirts in the closet and the view out the window. I think you can read that any number of ways. Possibly it means Ennis is finally ready, like Jack was already in childhood, to dream of a better life and try to live it (as signified by his at long last allowing his daughter fully into his life, and vice versa). Yet somehow in my heart I don't believe that, because the movie leaves me more with the ache of regret than with any great hope.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - austendw 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 15:45:23 )

But, starting with a higher, comparitively 'jarring', noticeably contrasting, overhead shot of Ennis's head, Jack's Mother's bony hand enters the frame, and touches Ennis's shoulder, breaking the 'spell' of the Father's disdain and hatred for what his son was. She [as the screenplay directions indicate] has never been a part of her husband's life, but has endured the hatred which he feels for their only son.

That may be the best and most powerful shot of the whole movie for me. I am very impressed with your analysis of this scene in filmic terms.

Deliberate Classical references and Questions....
by - flashframe777 5 days ago (Thu Jan 12 2006 17:27:32 )

UPDATED Thu Jan 12 2006 17:30:10
What's your take on the quick scene where Ennis is laying down hot pavement talking to the guy who says something to the effect of, "My wife keeps asking me to quit. But I tell her strong backs and weak minds run in my family"? It happens right after Ennis' wedding. I know it's there for a reason. The first time I saw the scene, I just thought the man was just there to annoy Ennis. Now I think that it shows a man who was in a loving marriage holding up a mirror to Ennis, who was not in a loving marriage. His wife wants him home, but Alma want's Ennis to work harder. Your take?

There are lots of references to Ice throughout the movie. Lureen tells Jack he wore the parka last when they had that big Ice Storm (I have not seen the movie - "Ice Storm"). Then there's the hailstorm. Ennis falls asleep and his tent gets covered in the snow. The first time we see Alma and Ennis together it is in a field of snow. I relate the snow to water, and water to time...so snow would be "a moment frozen in time."

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

Re: Deliberate Classical references and Questions....
by - austendw 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 05:29:26 )

There are lots of references to Ice throughout the movie. Lureen tells Jack he wore the parka last when they had that big Ice Storm (I have not seen the movie - "Ice Storm"). Then there's the hailstorm. Ennis falls asleep and his tent gets covered in the snow. The first time we see Alma and Ennis together it is in a field of snow. I relate the snow to water, and water to time...so snow would be "a moment frozen in time."

I tend to think of ice as the quintessence of coldness, viewed either physically or metaphorically - emotionally. Ennis's snow covered tent suggests his loneliness, his need for emotional warmth and affection. On the night of their first f-ck, Ennis is sleeping alone outdoors under a thin film of icy dew (unless I'm misremembering?) and it is this extreme coldness, and aloneness, which at last gets him snuggled up with Jack in the tent. In fact it may be precisely in order to emphasise this image of coldness/aloneness that the film makes a change from the story at this point: in the story Ennis moves from the tent's ground sheet to the bed roll; in the film it's from outside the tent to inside.

Alma and Ennis in the snow may suggest that the warmth Ennis has with Jack is really lacking in their relationship. The parka? Well, I reckon that's just a parka. And as to the hail storm, I'm afraid my memory isn't functioning well - I have only a vague recollection of that scene: I've only seen the movie once, last Sunday, and until I've been to see it again (and maybe take notes) I'm not going to be able to make any even vaguely intelligent comments.

Cheers

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - jlilya 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 11:21:11 )

This next two paragraphs were written by Casey Cornelius and bkamberger, respectivley and it made me think about the title of the book:

The 'two in one' has just now suggested to me the image from Plato's 'Symposium' in which there is a discussion of why we fall in love with various persons - an absurd simplification being the idea that we were all originally part of a double-entitiy being which later was split into two, spending the rest of our lives trying to match up to our corresponding half, whether it be another male or another female. I'm tempted to link this allusion to the unified two-in-one image of the shirts, but will have to give it more thought.

The Aristophanes story in the Symposium is a very interesting correlation, particularly since the playwright emphasized that the double-people were originally back to back. Much is made throughout the story of Jack and Ennis not looking at each other, and it's hinted this is because, deep down, they can't face the fact that their "double" is a man.

This is what i think: If this is what Annie Proulx had in mind then the title Brokeback Mountain would tend to support this. In essence Jack and Ennis, the double-entity is split down the middle, in this case down the back, or broken at the back, hence Brokeback.

I always thought it interesting how Annie structured the beginning of the story. She says in the first line "They were raised" , not "Jack was raised in lightening flat" and "Ennis was raised around Sage", but she puts them together right from the start by saying "They" were raised and then she immediately pulls them apart and shows they are opposites (in opposite corners of the state) and describes them as opposites showing Jack's dynamism ( Jack Twist, Lightening Flat, Montana Border) and Ennis's more laid back personality ( Ennis del Mar, from around Sage, Utah line). Then she continues to show there similarities ( from small poor ranches, both high-school dropout country boys, both rough mannered, brought up to hard work and privation, etc.)
So anyway, I'm really buying your ideas about Plato's symposium and the guys being two halfs of a whole. I never could quite totally get the title of the book and it's proiminece in the story, she keeps repeating the name brokeback, but now I think it makes sense, at least to me.
I wanted to comment on one more thing that Casey wrote:

And when one of them meets with his other half, the actual half of himself,[ ]the pair are lost in amazement of love and friendship and intimacy, and will not be out of the other's sight, as I may say, even for a moment: [ ]

Is this possibly one of the reasons for Annie's paragragh " During the day Ennis looked across a great gulf, and sometimes saw Jack......Jack, in his dark camp as night fire."
Also, You could argue that once they leave each other that summer that they are out of each others sights, but from this point on the shirts are together "one inside each othere like two skins" so aren't they really still together, at least in a symbolic or you could say spiritual sense.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - starboardlight 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 11:28:17 )

Jlilya wrote:
This is what i think: If this is what Annie Proulx had in mind then the title Brokeback Mountain would tend to support this. In essence Jack and Ennis, the double-entity is split down the middle, in this case down the back, or broken at the back, hence Brokeback.

I love that interpretation.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - flashframe777 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 11:40:02 )

The shirts were a talisman that kept them together - Jack's most cherished dream. After twenty years, the talisman becomes a third dimensional connection or portal between the twin souls of Jack & Ennis. Ennis and Jack are together every night in his dreams. And in the morning Ennis hopes a panel of the dream will slide forward - to paraphrase Proulx.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

a mother's love=redemption
by - yaadpyar 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 13:28:30 )

UPDATED Mon Jan 16 2006 13:55:28
For me, one of the most touching aspects of the scene in Jack's parent's home is that Ennis has finally visited Jack's home - finally gone where Jack had been asking him to go for years - but it's Jack's death, the end of their relationship, that enables Ennis to finally take this step. By then, it's too late to have any meaning to Jack, but it's full of meaning for Ennis. He has finally said yes to Jack, and it's just tragic that he's better able to say yes to honor a memory than to say yes in life to nourish love. Ennis holds their love in a sacred space inside of himself, and has been terrified that exposing that love to life in the real world would destroy it and them in the process. Sadly and so ironicaly, Jack is destroyed anyway, without the comfort of knowing that they made the most of the time they had available.

With Jack's death, Ennis is finally able to give himself over completely to this love without the tricky complication of finding a place on earth for them to be together. He can confess his love for Jack in death in a way he never could in life. He speaks to Jack's wife, visits Jack's home and parents, and tells each one of them how he feels about Jack - something he's never before done.

There is only one woman who understands the full truth of Jack and Ennis, and it's Jack's mother. Jack's death has stripped away all of Ennis's excuses - his excuses for not being available, for not making room in his life for what was in his heart. In Jack's mother, Ennis finally finds the one individual who knows the truth, accepts and embraces the love they share. I think her acceptance combined with Jack's death, finally melts something that had remained "ice cold" in Ennis' heart until then.

You can see Jack's mother longing to connect more deeply with Ennis, to talk with him, maybe to hold him, to know and love her son's one true love, to share stories and memories, to connect to Jack through Ennis. But in the same way that Ennis is emotionally constrained/restrained by his fear of those around him, she is restricted from speaking or expressing herself more fully in the presence of her harsh and angry husband. So - everything that can be said without words is communicated in longing silence through their eyes, a language in which Ennis and the mother are both fluent, but one that Jack never spoke well. Jack's mother's longing to connect with Ennis paralells Jack's struggle to connect with Ennis - a longing unfulfilled but undeniable.

I think the visit to Jack's home is Ennis's redemption. His love for Jack broke him down, and the love of Jack's mother restores him. The acknowledgement from Jack's mother in such a simultaneously subtle and obvious manner, despite the father's anger, brings Ennis back to life - gives him persmission to fully feel the entirety of his love Jack for the first time. Ennis can accept love from this woman in a way that he cannot even from Jack.

The poignancy of their meeting is highlighted when Ennis departs the house, holding the paper bag which contains proof of thier love (the shirts). He is hatless, not shielded in any way, and he makes full eye contact with Jack's mother. In my memory, this is the only time we see Ennis make fully expressive eye contact where his words of thanks match the gratitude in his eyes.

Acknowledging in Jack's death what he couldn't in Jack's life opens Ennis to at least the possibility of real connection. In the very last scene when he finally says yes to his daughter, he is finally saying yes to embracing belonging and family. Finally, he is not delaying, avoiding or denying love this time.

And I think this is part of what Ennis is swearing to Jack - swearing that he will always be true to their sacred love, swearing that he will never forget, swearing that their love was true, and swearing that their love will live on in every moment of love Ennis experiences.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - flashframe777 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 14:13:13 )

And I think this is part of what Ennis is swearing to Jack - swearing that he will always be true to their sacred love, swearing that he will never forget, swearing that their love love was true, and swearing that their love will live on in every moment of love Ennis experiences.
_______________________________

Wonderfully put.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 16:38:26 )

jlilya:

I hadn't even thought of the image of Brokeback being linked with an allusion to the 'Symposium' and the separation of lovers. But, your idea is fascinating.
Don't know if Annie Proulx would have intentionally made a connection, but your suggestion certainly suggests an unconscious or archetypal one.
Great work !!

TOoP/Bruce · « **Reply #10 on:** June 16, 2007, 07:29:31 am »

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - nene2 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 19:09:28 )

I think one of the film's strengths is its ambiguities. Things that are clear in the short story are vague in the film, and vice versa. I think that is the way it should be.

I have a very different take on "Jack, I swear . . ." Swearing or making promises has nothing to do with it. "I swear" is an old rural US euphemism for "Damn" or other swear word. Today we would say "Wow!" My grandfather (in Indiana) used to say "I swear" whenever he was astonished or deeply impressed by anything. Tell him the news of the day or show him something unusual and he would say "Well, I swear!" For me, Ennis's last words in the movie mean "Damn it, Jack! All I have are these memories! How could you do this to me?"

I wonder if anyone else takes it that way.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - rubin2018 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 19:45:49 )

Casey,

Just as I can not get the poetry from Brokeback
out of my mind...the same has been true for many
years with Bridges of Madison County. It also had
a devastatingly emotional impact on me for the
lesson of unconditional love and the pain of
separation from your true other half.

Please allow me to share three different lines
from Bridges that still haunt me the same way I
know Brokeback will for the rest of my life.

“For a moment, I didn't know where I
was. And for a split second, the
thought crossed my mind that he
really didn't want me -- that it was
easy to walk away.”

“It seems like everything that I‘ve done
in my life has been to make my way to you.”

“There has not been a day since that
I have not thought of him. When he
said we were no longer two people, he
was right. We were bound together as
tightly as two people can be.”

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - rubin2018 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 20:26:04 )

goldilocks,

I have been hooked up to the Internet for 12 twelve years,
but never have encountered anything like this. I never
imagined that such an amazing group discussion like this
could ever take place on the Internet.

Anyway, for some reason your "goldilocks" User Name hit me
as I was reading what you had to say. I kept thinking how
Ennis arrives at Jack's parent's house and sits at the
kitchen table without his hat on. You could actually feel
Ennis's soul opening up as he sat up there in the chair with
his beautiful golden locks of hair.

R.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - yaadpyar 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 21:17:11 )

UPDATED Fri Jan 13 2006 21:20:39
“It seems like everything that I‘ve done
in my life has been to make my way to you.”

Such a powerful quote...the great tragedy of finding the place in which you belong completely only to have made yourself belong elsewhere already.

Re: There's a powerful line in the Proulx story...
by - rubin2018 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 22:32:01 )

That is really interesting now that you bring up the Ennis-Lureen conversation. Think about it VERY CLOSELY!!

Think about the intonation she used when describing how he died.
Verrrrrry Monotoneeeeee. I beg you to listen again! It was as if Lureen had discovered the true facts behind her husband's death......and she felt that she needed to conjure up a less scandalous story to let everyone know what happened.
She was a businessperson through and through. It was like she was repating it for the 450th time. Watch her roll her eyes as she does this. Her eye movements indicate that she is just trying to remember what "her story" was. She probably hadn't had to tell it for a while and had to focus quite a bit to remember her story of her husband's death.

She had the farm machinery business to protect and she wasn't going to let the sins of her husband and the detail of his demise threaten her ability to go out and buy gaudy rings and have her hair done up Hollywood style.

OMG !!! PLEASE FORGIVE ME!!! I must confess that the words "Bad Rim Job" came to mind when thinking about what Lureen said happened to Jack.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - animesux 4 days ago (Fri Jan 13 2006 22:36:57 )

you are a total genius..

and i swear... if ennis and jack aren't reunited i would just die inside.

Re: There's a powerful line in the Proulx story...
by - yaadpyar 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 05:14:37 )

UPDATED Sat Jan 14 2006 05:16:32
It's fairly clear in the short story and maybe less so in the movie, that Lureen was going through the motions of telling the "story" of Jack's death. She didn't start-out a gold-digging materialist, but I think she had nothing left by the time Jack died.

She slowly died inside, much the way Alma did, upon finding out that her husband wouldn't/couldn't be the man she wanted, and in fact, never was the man she thought. She hardened into a shell of the Lureen we first meet, her cold exterior protection against the ultimate emptiness of her life.

Her conversation with Ennis about Jack is so full of unspoken thoughts and feelings on both sides, both of them fighting against what they know or suspect. Fascinating the paralells between Ennis & Lureen: both with hardened exteriors, neither able to fully embrace him, both willing to let so much remain unsaid and unknown in their relationship, neither demanding of Jack what he so desperately wanted to give, each crippled emotionally and hobbling along until Jack's death presents them with a reality they can no longer avoid...

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - naun 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 06:28:47 )

UPDATED Sat Jan 14 2006 06:33:45
Another literary (albeit not classical) connection that occurred to me. I first mentioned it in another thread, but this seems like a good place to repeat it and expand on it a little.

There's a scene in the movie -- and the same elements are in the short story -- where Jack and Lureen are at the tractor showroom, years after their rodeo days. Jack is outside trying to sell a tractor (the infamous "Versatile" tractor), while inside the office Lureen does the accounts. This scene reminds me of Yeat's poem "At Galway Races", these lines in particular:

We, too, had good attendance once,
Hearers and hearteners of the work;
Aye, horsemen for companions,
Before the merchant and the clerk
Breathed on the world with timid breath.

So Jack and Lureen have been reduced in middle age to being "the merchant and the clerk". But it's the rest of the poem that resonates:

Sing on: somewhere at some new moon,
We'll learn that sleeping is not death,
Hearing the whole earth change its tune,
Its flesh being wild, and it again
Crying aloud as the racecourse is,
And we find hearteners among men
That ride upon horses.

Here are more of the themes and images from Brokeback: the singing, the moon, the dream of expressing one's nature free from social constraints, and perhaps also the idea that death will not finally part the "hearteners".

Maybe coincidental, maybe not.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - austendw 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 07:21:40 )

the singing, the moon, the dream of expressing one's nature free from social constraints, and perhaps also the idea that death will not finally part the "hearteners".

And perhaps Lureen has a sudden realisation that Jack had experienced something of this, when she learns on the phone that Brokeback had a far greater meaning for Jack than she had imagined, a significance that Jack had never shared with her.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - yaadpyar 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 07:43:13 )

UPDATED Sat Jan 14 2006 07:57:23
And perhaps Lureen has a sudden realisation that Jack had experienced something of this, when she learns on the phone that Brokeback had a far greater meaning for Jack than she had imagined, a significance that Jack had never shared with her.

So true - her realization that not everything Jack said was just unrealized fantasy. The struggle that we see in both Lureen and Ennis during the phone call, each trying to keep their composure in their seperate grief, is this amazing power struggle for Jack's memory...who knew him better, whose memories were longer, who buried him, who knew the true story. What is revealed and concealed by each to the other.

From Ennis's call, Lureen finds out that Jack's life was real in ways she didn't know - that he was a dreamer, but not just a dreamer. And Ennis finally has to acknowledge that Jack wasn't just a dream of his own to tuck away in his mind and heart, making space for it in his life only as he wished...

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 11:07:39 )

UPDATED Sat Jan 14 2006 11:30:05
nene2:

Yet another intriguing take on that final line, but I can't help but see it as more than an everyday emotional expletive.

I'm maintaining an interpretation with other posters in the discussion who see Ennis's final "Jack, I swear --" as a voicing of commitment and eternal love.

flashframe777 in a post
(thread deleted)

above which eloquently says [quoting another poster?]:
"And I think this is part of what Ennis is swearing to Jack - swearing that he will always be true to their sacred love, swearing that he will never forget, swearing that their love love was true, and swearing that their love will live on in every moment of love Ennis experiences."

Another disucssion is with naun on the Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move thread:
(REPOSTED)

where both of us see Ennis's voicing of 'I swear' as a response to Alma, Jr.'s affirming that she has [at the age of 19, the same age Ennnis first loved Jack] found someone who can state his love and commit in marriage to her. The vow she is planning to state in marriage elicits a similar response from Ennis towards Jack. It has been stated several times in these threads that Ang Lee was intent on making this last scene redemptive.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - nene2 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 14:02:48 )

UPDATED Sat Jan 14 2006 14:22:32
CaseyCornelius:

Thanks for you comments. I don't think there is any way to know what Proulx or the screenwriters meant by "Jack, I swear" - unless somehow we could ask them. Proulx's original text adds ". . . though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind." Which blows my expletive theory. On the other hand, that seems untrue, for wasn't Jack constantly trying to get Ennis to swear his love, make a commitment? Forgetting the short story, the effect for me of "Jack, I swear" in the film, which after all must stand on its own, is simple, provocative ambiguity. Maybe that's the way it was meant to be. I am more bothered by what happens afterward. The screenplay states that, after saying "Jack, I swear," Ennis "closes the closet door [and he] looks out the window, at the great bleakness of the vast northern plains." He doesn't do that in the film. I wish he had, for I wanted something more than a fadeout on the closet door frame, with a window to the side.

I've seen BBM four times, savor that lateral camera movement at the lake each time. It's stunning for it's one of the few camera movements in the film - causing some posters to compare Ang Lee to John Ford, who never moved his camera at all, never. As you pointed out, one sees movements like that in the films of Antonioni and especially Bergman, and I think they imply that the camera (the film maker, the viewer) is analyzing a person, trying to focus, understand him, despite the obstacles in the foreground. Lee saved his most dramatic scenery and that single, conspicuous, dizzying camera movement for the "showdown" scene at the lake, which is the dramatic center of the story. Interestingly, Proulx was unhappy with that aspect of the screenplay for in her short story she placed the dramatic center in the motel. She asked Lee to respect her original, but he would not and she gave up on the project. When finally she saw the film she says she was relieved and delighted, for she realized that, in the film at least, moving the dramatic peak to the lake was perfect. Film is not literature is not film is not literature, etc., etc.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 15:32:34 )

nene2:

This last post of yours raises a number of points, to one of which I have an immediate response.

I believe the final two shots DO show Ennis looking out the window. The penultimate shot is of his hand fixing the photo on his 'ceremonial effigy'/altar to the memory of his and Jack's relationship.
And then, as I recall, the closet door is pulled into 'our eyes'/the camera - ie. Ennis's point of view - and wipes across the screen to the left, 'lifting off the screen' as it were much like a transparency or superimposition, to reveal the open window behind it. It directly justaposes the ceremonial image of the idealized photo of Brokeback on the postcard with the reality of the open window - 'the great bleakness of the vast northern plains'.

Could the final shot showing both the closed closet door and the open window not be a filmic interpretation of Proulx' final sentence - "There was some open space between what he knew [the open window] and what he tried to believe [the hidden ceremonial altar] --"? Given your familiarity with Antonioni I'm sure you can appreciate this very Antonioni-esque justaposition of symbolic images within the frame.

Another poetic reference comes into the daylight after having nagged at me in my dim memory from the Proulx story with the continuation of this same sentence - "--but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it."
It echoes T.S. Eliot's lines in The Hollow Men --
"Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow."

I'll have to work with this as a sentence from the opening of the paragraph of the story,
"The wind booms down the curved length of the trailer and under its roaring passage he can hear the scratching of fine gravel and sand."

reminds me of the earlier line in The Hollow Men as well
"--quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rat's feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar".

But that's for another discussion.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - JadziaDragonRider 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 15:47:05 )

What an amazing post. I am not up on my European classical lit or drama but I enjoyed this post nonetheless. I do want to assert, that I read Jack's father differently. I don't know if he was mollified by Jack's death or what but I think there was greif and regret. He's not stupid. He knew that these men Jack mentioned were lovers I think. I think in those final scenes he might have transferred some of his feelings of guilt over Jack's fate onto Ennis as if to say "If you had come up here with Jack, he wouldn't be dead." I think it was in hte actor's delivery. He's not witholding the ashes to punish Jack even in death I think he's regretfull and angry that his son is dead and on some subconcious level he blames the man who could have saved him. He wants his boy to be in the family plot. If it was about being indifferent to Jacks' memory I think he would have left the ashes with Loreen, and if he didn't have some regret he would have refused Ennis entrance into his home.

TOoP/Bruce · « **Reply #11 on:** June 16, 2007, 07:33:56 am »

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - nene2 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 15:59:34 )

I still don't like the last scene. But if the majority does, that's what matters. And I respect Lee's vision.

I will ponder your references to Eliot. BTW, that italicized preface to the short story was not in the original New Yorker publication. Proulx added it later.

What is your take on the four-note guitar theme that is heard loudly and prominently during the final scene? It is underscoring something . . . but what? And why on the CD is that music called "The Wings"? The fact that the music is a waltz, in 3/4 time, also kindles all kinds of thoughts in my mind.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - flashframe777 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 16:14:36 )

UPDATED Sat Jan 14 2006 16:23:59
Nene2 - the four note guitar theme that opens the movie (not The Wings).

Oh, I've thought about this. For me, it's an abandoned, abused soul crying out. The sparseness of the notes underscore that sensation we all have had of feeling small and insignificant in a vast universe. The shot we see first is multi-layered mountain range at dawn. It's a divided soul calling to its twin flame - and it's the flame answering back.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

She did NOT, by the way, add it later! The New Yorker
by - rvognar01 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 16:25:43 )

Editied it out! She restored it in "close Range," and McMurtry and Diana used it...

"You come back and see us again"--Jack's mother

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - mlewisusc 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 16:25:56 )

nene2,

I THINK the preface was originally submitted but the New Yorker editors deleted it.

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."

Do I repeat myself? very well, I repeat myself
by - rvognar01 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 16:28:57 )

UPDATED Sun Jan 15 2006 09:00:36
...after his wife invited him in?

Proulx wrote the original story with the two italicized paragraphs, and the New Yorker edited them out; they also edited out some other things==all of which she restored in "Close Range." All of which were used in the screenplay (which is not to say every word she wrote was in the screenplay, or that nothing was added to the screenplay). OR to the movie, after 3-4 takes...

And that's all I have to add to this magnificent thread that Casey Cornelius started with an essay that would get an A in any grad school film coruse...which he might also teach...nuan, jmghallagher, all them guys...

"You come back and see us again"--Jack's mother

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - nene2 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 16:32:00 )

Quote

Thanks, mlewisusc. I didn't know that. Interesting . . .

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - nene2 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 16:35:56 )

flashframe777:

But why is the guitar music that ends the movie called "The Wings"?

The word "wings" occurs a few times in the dialogue, but I don't get the connection. Maybe they just had to call it something . . .

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - flashframe777 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 17:07:33 )

UPDATED Sat Jan 14 2006 17:10:31
Nene2

I think Casey talked in an earlier post about this.

Proulx writes: He had staunched the blood which was everywhere, all over both of them, with his shirtsleeve, but the staunching hadn't held because Ennis had suddenly swung from the deck and laid the ministering angel out in the wild columbine, WINGS folded.

The last scene is of the bloody shirts, the talisman which reunites them, a result of last day on Brokeback.

Perhaps Santaollala made this connection, and was inspired to name the song, "The Wings" because of this.

That's the best I got.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - nene2 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 17:15:31 )

Also, when Ennis attends Thanksgiving dinner back at Alma's, Alma Jr. asks him to tell about when he rode broncs in the rodeo. Ennis says:

"Short story, honey. Only 'bout three seconds I was on that bronc, an' the next thing I knew I was flyin' through the air. Only I wasn't no angel like you and Jenny, and didn't have no wings . . ."

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - flashframe777 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 22:15:35 )

Nene2

Jack, Jenny and Alma Jr. are described as angels with wings. Those are the people that Ennis holds closest to his heart.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 22:42:45 )

UPDATED Sun Jan 15 2006 06:41:45
flashframe and nene:

It might be a tad obvious but is not the 'angel' image / Wings also suggested by the out-spread sleeves of the shirts hung on the nail from the closet door?

Ennis did hold his daughters - the other angels - in his life dear in paternal love, but he held Jack dearest in devotional love.

I've read through numerous threads discussing the 'ministering angel' quote as a foreshadowing of Jack's death. But, I've not seen anybody bring up the reference to Act V, sc. 1 of Hamlet. Laertes is at his sister Ophelia's funeral and chides the priest who does not wish to give her any more church rites of burial as she was a suicide -- "I tell thee, churlish priest, A minist'ring angel shall my sister be
When thou liest howling."

Don't know if Proulx intended an allusion to Hamlet, but it is the one that springs most readily to mind in literature. AND Ennis IS concerned with proper burial rites at the end of the story, much as Laertes. Jack will continue to act as Ennis's ministering angel, providing comfort through the medium of the 'winged' shirts, much as he did in life.

Another allusion suggested by that same 'wrestling' scene and the wounding which Jack accidentally inflicts on Ennis might be to Jacob wrestling with the Angel in Genesis [not a ministering angel, however]. A bit of a stretch, but much as the Angel cannot prevail over Jacob and is forced to wound him in the thigh to gain release, so Jack symbolically wounds Ennis since he cannot prevail in disarming Ennis's sullen spirit at their parting.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - rvognar01 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 22:46:53 )

UPDATED Sat Jan 14 2006 22:50:46
How could I have forgotten...Ophelia committed suicide--maybe, and that's why the priest wouldn't give her fuill funeral rites.

"You come back and see us again"--Jack's mother

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - flashframe777 3 days ago (Sat Jan 14 2006 22:51:09 )

"I tell thee, churlish priest, A minist'ring angel shall my sister be
When thou liest howling."
_________________________
Beautiful association Casey.

Hmmm....what are the chances Proulx has ever read Shakespeare? :-)

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - austendw 3 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 02:34:36 )

Could the final shot showing both the closed closet door and the open window not be a filmic interpretation of Proulx' final sentence - "There was some open space between what he knew [the open window] and what he tried to believe [the hidden ceremonial altar] --"? Given your familiarity with Antonioni I'm sure you can appreciate this very Antonioni-esque justaposition of symbolic images within the frame.

That's very well argued, Casey. I like the way the closet door acts as a screen, which temporarily obscures the reality through the window. This shrine to Jack may be hidden (it's literally "in the closet"), but when opened, it hides and counteracts the bleakness and emptiness of the world outside.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - starboardlight 3 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 02:52:09 )

YES! that reference to Hamlet is amazing. Well observed Casey.

Re: Do I repeat myself? very well, I repeat myself
by - shrinkrapt 3 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 03:24:27 )

Wow, what a treat, after all those hordes of trolls. Don't have time for it now, but I've saved this to hard disk for later perusal.

People, I swear....no film has ever drawn me back to the theatre time after time. I don't WANT to see it again, but I need to (to check out these classical references, apart from anything).

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - Jamessemaj12 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 05:43:41 )

What an astute and profoundly moving comparrison that is. I felt the same things but never made the analogy with DIDO and AENEAS from Virgil's Aeneid which was one of my most beloved stories from Greek Mythology class long ago in High school.
I also believe and have done so since first reading the story years ago that the Jack , I swear is a pronouncement of the guilt that Ennis feels and his proclaiming had he known he would lose his love he would not have let him go but would have found the courage to do things differently.
I was away when this thread first appeared but someone called my attention to it, Thank you again .
I find it so fascinating that this story has all the elements of Greek tragedy even without the comparrison to Aeneid yet is set in modern western civilization.

Should anyone care to read The Aeneid by Virgil here is a link but be forewarned if not familiar with the classics of Greek literature it can be an arduous read but so very worth it.

http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~joelja/aeneid.html

"But all in all, it's been a fabulous year for Laura and me." BUSH. after 9/11 attacks, 12/20/2001

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - newyearsday 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 07:54:40 )

So glad this thread has stayed vibrantly alive and that more and more insights keep coming. We're up to 87,000 posts on this board, but this one is right up at the top IMO. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.

Thank you.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - jlilya 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 08:52:40 )

Did everyone notice the blood red nail polish on Lureen's finger as well as on her nails in the the phone call with Ennis. Do you think that this is Ang's way of saying that Lureen has "blood on her hands"? It was pretty obvious, that little bit of nail polish on her finger, must have some meaning. And this may be a shot in the dark but, a possible allusion to Lady Macbeth? I'm not all that well read, so maybe someone who is, might pick something up on this point.
Also, what's the deal with Lureen being almost "ghost" white except for the nails. Maybe to set them off more, or maybe that she is only a spectre of her original self, the girl full of fire and life. At any rate a sad commentary on what she's become. Any feedback appreciated.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - flashframe777 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 09:04:00 )

Casey and James and Austendw and everyone else,

The works by authors of old like Homer, and the masters like Shakespeare and Dickens and the like lead me to think of the creative impulse making its first imprint on man. Maybe great storytelling will always refer and reduce to the great works by these artists because it's the original flame.

When I attended school in Austin, I used to stop into the building that houses the first photograph ever taken. It felt like a religious pilgrimage because I was in such awe. I thought whatever the spirit of film and light may be, whomever it may be, it made it's first physical statement to the world in this piece of art. Was there something I could gain by being in its presence? Don't know, but it couldn't hurt.

Yes, I love your reference to Shakespeare Casey. Everyone worth his or her metal drinks from the source.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - starboardlight 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 10:02:25 )

i didn't take the nail polish to mean that. i never believed that she had anything to do with Jack's death. they were to emphasize the artificiality of her life.

there have been a couple of really well discussed thread to the question of her clothing and hair. don't have time to find them just now though. To me, they represent her growing distance from her life, her husband and he child. We first see her full of life, dressed in red with long lose hair. She's passionate, dangerous and reckless. She is wild abandonment. But as she settles into accounting books for her daddy, that quality drains from her. Her hair begins to take on unearthly and unnatural structures and also drains of color. She falls into a routine (crunching numbers) and she neglect her marriage and child (her forgetting to tend to his educational need). We see the life visually drain from her. At the end, she's all white. The only colors are in her lipstick and nail polish, and those are messily applied.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - starboardlight 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 10:16:39 )

just a minor correction. Virgil was a Roman. Despite the mythology behind Romulus and Remus, Virgil portrays Aeneas is the father of Rome. It's been years since I read it but the basic story is that Aeneas, a Greek, was sent by the gods to start a new nation, Rome. Druing his journey, he met, fell in love with, but could not stay with Dido. Julius Caesar claims a direct descendent of Aeneas.

TOoP/Bruce · « **Reply #12 on:** June 16, 2007, 07:37:43 am »

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - henrypie 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 10:35:55 )

Any thoughts on Ennis's name, Del Mar? He's the one who's never traveled more than round a coffee pot to find the handle, who is earthbound and beige, who comes from Sage; yet he has the name Del Mar -- of the sea. I'm don't think Twist or any of the other names is crying out for exegesis, but Del Mar stands out as a deliberate contradiction to his character and, I can't escape it, a reference to Jack -- blue....

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - mlewisusc 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 10:42:57 )

"Ennis" is an old Gaelic word meaning "Island." Thus, "Ennis del Mar" is "Island (surrounded by) the Sea (water)."

Lots can be dug out of this - insular, established, immovable while all around him moves, and if you go up further in this thread and take Water in the film to represent the passage of time, time and change pass around Ennis, perhaps altering his form and appearance, but not moving him along at all . . .

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - stevme 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 11:37:08 )

Beautifully written. thank you.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - juliaz3 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 12:58:46 )

I'm with Nene2 (in her post from Friday) in that I interpreted and still interpret Ennis' "I swear" as more of an exclamation. I've often used "I swear" in this way. But I do see that it can be interpreted both ways, as the colloquial exclamation and a promise or vow of some sort, which was probably the author's intention.

To keep this wonderful thread alive here are some comments and a couple of questions:

I took Jack's father's statment "I know where Brokeback Mountain is" to mean "I know all about my son's sexual preference, you ain't fooled me". He almost uses it as a euphemism, like the man who hired them to work Brokeback later taunts Jack with the phrase "stemming the rose".

Jack is the first one to make a sexual reference, when he speaks of the wolf he saw with "balls as big as apples". Later Jack returns to the fire after taking a piss and proudly "flicks" the rodeo belt buckle he wears (a trophy) to show it off, which I also interpreted as a come-on gesture. These two comments/actions to me revealed their growing imtimacy.

As Jack and Ennis talk around the fire, a few hours before their first sexual encounter, Jack says something like "sinners like us" and Ennis says he isn't a sinner because "I haven't had the opportunity".

When Ennis returns to the mountain and finds the dead sheep that was killed by a predator, he is overwhelmed by emotion. The second time I saw the film I connected the image of the dead sheep with the image of the murdered gay man that Ennis saw as a child. I think the Ennis was o.k. with what had happened between he and Jack until he sees the dead sheep. Did anyone else connect those two images? (Sorry if this is obvious and has already been discussed.)

Did anyone else think Jack must have loved Ennis for his laconic wit? Ennis is a man of few words, but boy, he can snap off some funny remarks.

I think in the end Ennis finally realized that he had been surrounded by love (Alma, Jack, Cassie, his daughters) and just never saw it or allowed himself to feel it. He had been orphaned, and then left to fend for himself. He married a nice girl who he was comfortable with, probably for the security and companionship, but we know he didn't feel passionate love for her. He never expected to find love or be loved, even when it was right there waiting for him.

Question: The film or the projector was dimmly lit during that first sex scene between Ennis and Jack. As Jack tries to kiss Ennis, does Ennis hold his eyes tightly closed, like he doesn't want to give in but also doesn't want it to stop? It seemed that way to me but I couldn't see it well.

Question: Why does Alma crack during the Thanksgiving dinner? That puzzles me. She has moved on and has a nice husband and a secure home. Is she still in love with Ennis? Has she held in her anger at him for so long that finally something about him being there and getting attention and love from his daughters make her so angry that she has to finally confront him? I didn't notice if there was anything that set her off, it just seems to happen.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - nene2 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 13:15:08 )

UPDATED Sun Jan 15 2006 13:20:05
"One tender moment's reprieve from loneliness can illuminate a life."
(Last line of Stephen Holden's review of BBM in TNYT, 9 December 2005)

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - juliaz3 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 13:23:06 )

Excellent!

On second viewing (which certainly won't be my last) I noticed that Jack lies somewhat to Ennis when he tells Ennis about going back to Brokeback the next summer to look for him. He just says that Ennis wasn't there so he left, but he doesn't tell Ennis that the foreman ridiculed him and threw him out. I enjoyed watching Jake G. in that scene the second time I saw it because you see so much in his eyes and his attitude. Jack is a cocky guy, but the foreman cuts him with his words, and yet not even that can stop Jack from asking for Ennis. His body language and eyes show that although he is embarrassed, he still yearns for Ennis and will do anything for one word about his whereabouts.

The second time I saw this film I was somewhat bummed by my friend's reaction to it. He is a gay man who enjoys films and I thought this one would get him the same way it got me. However, his main comment afterward was, "Well, I thought I would see more of their intimacy. I mean, to me it seemed like they could just have been good buddies. Two straight guys horsing around. I guess that the filmmakers were scared to show what they really needed to to make it seem like they were lovers."

That so disappointed me. I think we saw many intimate moments. My friend assured me he didn't expect to see more "sex scenes", but that he thought that, especially after the Brokeback scenes, the meetings between the two men lacked intimacy. I could agree somewhat -- excepting of course their reunion after four years! -- but he so completely focused on what he expected and then did not see that I think he missed the rest of the story. There is a weight of political expectation on this fim that unfortunately doesn't allow some people to view it purely as a film.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - jnaomi 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 14:12:23 )

[Casey] Okay, I won't hesitate in asking my two questions. Clearly, you have wonderfully full, comprehensive thoughts on so many subtleties in this most beautiful film.

One, I wonder if you have any thoughts on the actual choice of the name "Brokeback" for the mountain. Is it a real mountain? Is it a reference to "having a broken back" aka broken spirit?

And, I haven't seen anyone question John Twist "sturdy" statement "I know where Brokeback is" as possibly a way in which John Twist has known some (I don't know how to word this) gay experience himself. Perhaps he had gay feelings so very repressed, it made his understanding and rejection of Jake's gayness so extreme and so harsh. I mean, if a person says, I know where such and such a place is, it usually means they have been there themselves. Maybe? Any thoughts, any one?

"Buy the ticket take the ride." Hunter S. Thompson[/quote[


Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - flics 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 14:34:57 )

The name Ennis can also be derived from the name Aengus, which means in Old Irish "sole or only choice". I admit that the surname "Del Mar", 'of the sea', would certainly connect the name Ennis strongly with the Irish 'inis', which means island - and which is a town in the south of Ireland, in County Clare.
Ennis being the only one for Jack is also appropriate. Both work beautifully.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - juliaz3 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 15:09:26 )

UPDATED Sun Jan 15 2006 15:11:22
In the thread above I mentioned that I think Jack's father saying "I know where Brokeback Mountain is" means quite clearly that he knows about his son's sexual orientation. He almost spits it out. It's a bit of a mirror of the scene in which Jack is confronted by the Brokeback foreman when he returns the next year to ask for a job, and to ask about Ennis. The foreman tells him that he knows the boys were "stemming the rose".

I don't think it's meant to suggest any repressed homosexuality in Jack's father.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - starboardlight 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 17:03:03 )

UPDATED Sun Jan 15 2006 17:04:10
However, his main comment afterward was, "Well, I thought I would see more of their intimacy. I mean, to me it seemed like they could just have been good buddies. Two straight guys horsing around. I guess that the filmmakers were scared to show what they really needed to to make it seem like they were lovers."

the lack of intimacy was very deliberate, not because the film makers were scared, but because Ennis is scared. Ang Lee very brilliantly mirror the emotional journey of the film with those of Ennis. When he find joys, his fear and paranoia rise and undercut them. Ang Lee does this for us as well. We begin to feel joy at their consumation in the first tent scene, and that joy is undercut with the discovery of the dead sheep. We want to indulge in their intimacy in the second tent scene or in the reunion scene, but Ang Lee brings back paranoia with Aguirre spying on them and with Alma discovering them. Ennis and Jack are frustrated because they're not allowed to experience fully the joy of their union, and we in turn are not allowed the same. It's a big risk for Ang Lee to take, cause it could alienate some audience members, but for the most part, it paid off. We get just as frustrated as Ennis and can empathize with his lose.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - asphodelli 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 20:56:30 )

You know, that's what i thought too... i mean, these people are grieving and trying not to show it- especially Mr. Twist, which makes him appear cold. He seemed to have almost a sort of "it ain't right, but i won't say it's wrong" attitude toward Ennis. Bitterness and regret seem forefront, possibly because he was not as involved in his son's life as he could have been, and now there's no chance.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - mightypog 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 21:06:08 )

That's too bad your friend was dissapointed by the lack of intimacy. I can see his point of view, in that it was pretty demure. I have read others express a similar critique.
My thought is, more sex would have taken the film out the romance genre. We don't necessarily expect movies about the great romances of heterosexual people to be terribly torrid. The emphasis is the romance, not the sex. In fact, if you think about it, there's a tendancy to shy away from too much physicality in romance movies, (Ever After, Ladyhawk, Pretty Woman, The English Patient, Shakespeare in Love, The Thorn Birds, for example)I think to avoid cheapening the characters and focus instead on the purity of the bond, a purity that transcends the body, even, presumably, death.
In the case of Ennis (Love the idea of Ennis as Aeneas!!!)and Jack, the idea, I think was to focus on what the relationship became after it got physical. I read a gay writer point out that being gay is not about who you have sex with, it's about who you fall in love with. I think that's a point the movie also made, one that more physicality might have diminshed.
Further, even if Ang Lee did chose to avoid more graphic sex in order to not drive off the mainstream altogether, I think he wasn't out of line.
One of the reasons I celebrate this movie so much is that it is utterly, 100% pioneering. It broke new ground. It presented a serious romance between two men to the American public. Increments are perfectly honorable. What an incredible achievement!
Kudos to Casey. What a wonderful discussion. Just what I was looking for. I have spent two days reading through the posts here before posting myself. How nice to be able to go past the infantile trolling by some of God's more joyless creatures in some other threads and just come here. Wonderful analyses, all.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - CaseyCornelius 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 21:13:54 )

UPDATED Sun Jan 15 2006 21:17:07
henrypie:

The post from mlewisusc following yours gives a great exegesis of Ennis del Mar.

I know that Annie Proulx sent Jake Gyllenhaal an inscribed copy of Close Range:Wyoming Stories letting him know that the name Twist referred to the strength of thigh and butt muscles which a rodeo rider needs to stay on a bull or bucking bronc. Appropriate, no[?], given his tenacious holding on to the dream of a life with Ennis through all of their difficult life together.

Alma being Spanish for soul, heart, or sweetheart is fairly common knowledge.
Interesting, isn't it, that we never learn her maiden surname? She's presented both in the story and the film as if she's had no existence prior to her life with Ennis [we never learn anything about her family] and always been true to the core in her love for Ennis -- which might explain her eternal sense of betrayal which explodes in the Thanksgiving scene.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - CaseyCornelius 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 21:34:55 )

UPDATED Sun Jan 15 2006 21:37:30
juliaz3:

Appreciate the thoughts in your post.
I absolutely agree with you that the shot of the dead sheep resonates with Ennis as the image of the dead, desecrated corpse of Earl does later in the film, though it's something we discover later. At the point in the film at which he sees the sheep I believe he himself is feeling an inarticulate guilt and intense shame around the previous night's explosion of sex with Jack. But, we can definitely connect the dots when we later see the hideous evidence of homophobic hatred which Ennis's father subjected him to at the unconscionable age of nine.

In the first night love-making with Jack, Ennis keeps his eyes open as far as I can tell - though he's so inebriated that one wonders what he's taking in.
The second night love-making definitely has Ennis closing his eyes and embracing Jack so tenderly, begining a relationship, according to Annie Proulx, in which Ennis will never embrace Jack face to face with his eyes open "because he [does] not want to see nor feel that it is Jack he [embraces]." Ennis even makes love to Alma this way as well. It's as if Ennis embraces both Jack and Alma as the hurt, emotionally arrested child that he is.

I believe Alma cracks during the dinner scene because she truly still loves Ennis at her core and cannot stand the eternal betrayal and the lie he is making of his emotional life. Earlier at the Thansgiving table she reacts with a derisive look at Ennis as he tries to charm and be the happy daddy for his daughters who obviously adore him. I don't think Alma wants to deny Ennis their love and respect, but wants him to own up to what and who he really is to both himself and herself.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - mlewisusc 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 23:22:44 )

Casey, was Alma's last name in the story Beers? If so, any thoughts there?

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - flashframe777 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 23:29:06 )

More about the musical score:

I wrote previously: Oh, I've thought about this. For me, the music speaks of an abandoned, abused soul crying out. The sparseness of the notes underscore that sensation we all have had of feeling small and insignificant in a vast universe. The shot we see first is multi-layered mountain range at dawn. It's a divided soul calling out to its twin flame - and it's the flame answering back.

I was referring to the music on the sountrack named "The Opening". The guitar strums, then the next instrument echoes the same notes as a shared sentiment. This music plays in three specific places - right before Jack & Ennis first meet, a second time when Ennis dry heaves in the alley, however, only the last note, the guitar strum is heard - then Alma appears. The next time we hear it is when Jack reunites with Ennis after 4 years with that glorious hug.

"The Wings" is played whenever a situation in the story is oppressive and unyielding. We first hear it after Ennis tells Jack why two men can't live together, that there are no reins on their relationship. That segues into Ennis and Alma having that round robin of an argument outside by the swings. Finally it's played at the end of the movie with a shot of Ennis' closet in juxtaposition to a picture view window. (Okay, I have to admit that I didn't get that until tonight - to choose between staying in the closet or coming out into the world. It's obvious, but I love it when things are hidden on the surface). When one is blocked, surrounded by four walls and no windows or doors to escape, like Jack and Ennis, the only way out is to rise above, and for that a pair of wings would certainly come in handy.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

TOoP/Bruce · « **Reply #13 on:** June 16, 2007, 07:40:27 am »

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - mlewisusc 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 23:32:11 )

This is probably gonna be a little corny, BUT

Brokeback Mountain reminds me powerfully of another impossible romance film, Casablanca.

I avoided Casablanca for years because it was supposedly such a "great" film.

Then I saw it and fell in love with it. And let's be clear, it's generally a pretty cheesy bit of filmmaking. But brilliant also!

Why? The fact that they don't end up together! But my post is really in response to the level of intimacy shown between Rick and Ilse. There's damn little. When Ilse goes to Rick's office, determined to get the letters of transit at any cost - her body, or Rick's death - after threatening to shoot him, she finally falls into his arms on the sofa . . . and . . . after a fade out . . . they are up again, tuxedo pressed, Rick is standing at the window and smoking - and Ilse's hair looks great . . .

I think this isn't just the restraint of the period but also the restraint of great writing - we want them to HAVE each other, fully and completely, but the filmmakers deny us this, because the characters are going to be denied or are denied - and we eat it up. We watch the stuff over and over. We can't resolve it in our heads to the point where we can "Let be, let be." We post on this board. Good God, I hated The Thorn Birds, but I was completely drawn to it - the forbidden love. Watched the whole damn thing. It's just true - good art usually comes from great pain.

Did I just solve the ache of the whole Universe or what?

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - flashframe777 2 days ago (Sun Jan 15 2006 23:46:29 )

Did I just solve the ache of the whole Universe or what?
______________________________________________________

Yes you did Prometheus. See you same time tomorrow.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - austendw 2 days ago (Mon Jan 16 2006 02:24:16 )

But I do see that it can be interpreted both ways, as the colloquial exclamation and a promise or vow of some sort, which was probably the author's intention.

I rather like this way of looking at it. There are twin perspectives at work here. For Ennis, a man of few words, seldom even aware of his own feelings, let alone able to express them, "I swear" seems to be his frustrated, strangled attempt to say something to Jack. Everything he should have but never said? His undying Love? His sense of guilt and grief? Who knows what? But for us, Ennis's unprecedented need to to express himself, the yearning to communicate to Jack, gives those words the depth and quality of a solemn oath.

I think that in her story, Proulx actually performs that magical transmutation of meaning when we pass from the colloquial "Jack, I swear" to the deeper "Jack had never asked him to swear anything...." Now that's mastery.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - austendw 2 days ago (Mon Jan 16 2006 03:33:28 )

I think that if the name Ennis del Mar signifies anything it's an allusion to John Donne's "No man is an island, entire of itself". Ennis is what no man is, or should be: an "Island of the Sea". He eventually confesses to Jack: "I'm nothing, I'm nobody" (or something like that).

(Sorry if this has been mentioned umpteen times before: it's the inevitable result of delayed trans-Altalntic release, leaving me groping to catch up with the hot topics on your side of the pond.)

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - juliaz3 1 day ago (Mon Jan 16 2006 06:10:35 )

Yes, Ennis breaks down and says to Jack, "It's because of you that I'm nowhere and nothing."

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - juliaz3 1 day ago (Mon Jan 16 2006 06:19:24 )

Excellent points! I tried to talk to my friend in this way, but he was too intent on needing to see more obvious physical intimacy (he was careful to tell me he did not mean SEX). He really missed the more truly intimate moments, they way the men said each other's names, the roles they took on, that sort of thing. For example (I think I remember this correctly), the time we are shown Ennis arriving at their meeting camp and he has brought two horses for them to ride. You hear him say, almost in voiceover, "Look what I brought." He delights in making their time together enjoyable.

It was only at my second viewing that I heard Ennis tell Jack he'd quit many jobs to make sure he was free to meet with Jack. Then it made sense to me when Alma said (paraphrase), "I'd be happy to have more of your kids if you'd support them." I thought, hmm, I guess she means emotionally, but something didn't seem right. Then later I realized, oh, he's quitting jobs all the time, probably with flimsy excuses, and it exasperates her. It really struck me that Ennis, who was no quitter, would quit those jobs. That was a real show of his commitment and his need for Jack.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - juliaz3 1 day ago (Mon Jan 16 2006 06:28:43 )

Casey, thanks for your response! Good points about Alma's reaction. And you're right that it's the second night they are together that Ennis keeps his eyes tightly closed. I realized that a while after I made my post.

When does everyone think Ennis is happiest in the film, at his most "alive"? To me, it seems he was happiest at the time of their first reunion. He is so vibrant and nervous with excitement as he waits for Jack to show up. And after they've shared that long kiss, he bursts in and is jumping to go out and spend time with Jack. We see Ennis happy and relaxed later, but to me he never seems so alive and vital as he does when they first see each other again. The fulfillment of that long desire, a dream Ennis had thought would never come true, and then the postcard and the buildup to the wonderful moment of being reunited with that one person he could be truly himself with. Makes me think of the Beatles lyrics, "One sweet dream, came true today."

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - mlewisusc 1 day ago (Mon Jan 16 2006 07:49:57 )

I presume, although we only see the briefest glimpses of it later, that he is this *alive* every time he meets with Jack out in the wilderness, however often (2 of 3 times) in a year.

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - naun 1 day ago (Mon Jan 16 2006 08:34:40 )

Yes, Ennis breaks down and says to Jack, "It's because of you that I'm nowhere and nothing."

Doesn't this remind you of Marlon Brando's "It was you, Charlie ... I coulda been a contender" speech in On the Waterfront?

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - naun 1 day ago (Mon Jan 16 2006 08:59:15 )

Alma being Spanish for soul, heart, or sweetheart is fairly common knowledge.

Casey,

In the accent of the region the name is pronounced "Elma", which you could parse as a contraction of "El madre", "The mother". I doubt this is accidental, in light of your earlier observation that, besides being the mother of Ennis' children, Alma's relationship with Ennis is also essentially maternal. In one scene, Ennis actually calls her "Ma". As I mentioned in another thread, Alma's character and predicament are not unlike those of the mother in Ang Lee's earlier film, The Wedding Banquet. Both women are conventional, profoundly nurturing types who find themselves in emotional circumstances they cannot understand.

You also connected the nature of Ennis' emotional relationships, including his relationship with Alma, with his habit of embracing, or being embraced by others from behind. It occurred to me the other day that the shirts follow the same configuration.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - quiplash 23 hours ago (Tue Jan 17 2006 05:52:27 )

UPDATED Tue Jan 17 2006 16:15:36
This is one of the best threads of movie comment I've seen in years. *bump*

Heath Ledger as ranch hand Ennis Del Mar deserves an Oscar for Best Actor (although Philip Seymour Hoffman could give him a run for his money). When Ledger was on-screen he was mesmerizing. Never missed a beat. During my second viewing of Brokeback Mountain I made a point of watching Heath Ledger's face during the first half hour of the movie, and he reminds me of nothing so much as a frightened child. The only times I ever saw him with his face relaxed were when he was with Alma during the first four years, when he was with his daughter Alma Jr., and of course many of the times he was with Jack. A glimpse of the Ennis that could have been.

There's that one scene at the very end of the movie that caught me off guard, which has been discussed here earlier. There's a shot of the Brokeback Mountain postcard pinned to the closet door of Ennis' trailer, which is then closed, revealing in its place the view out his trailer window: flat plain. Ennis has literally given up his mountaintop experience (and the potential to continue it) for a sad, flat life. This movie is all about giving up on your happiness and your dreams because of fear of what others may think, an issue of particular resonance for gay men my age (41) or older.

Oops...I think I just repeated myself. Sorry!

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - austendw 20 hours ago (Tue Jan 17 2006 08:40:44 )

There's a shot of the Brokeback Mountain postcard pinned to the closet door of Ennis' trailer, which is then closed, revealing in its place the view out his trailer window: flat plain. Ennis has literally given up his mountaintop experience (and the potential to continue it) for a sad, flat life.

Nicely put.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - jnaomi 18 hours ago (Tue Jan 17 2006 10:14:32 )

BUMP (though I once had a boyfriend who took the life out of art by parsing every "a" and "the" into some literary allusion.... I find this thread different and remarkable to wallow in)

"Buy the ticket take the ride." Hunter S. Thompson

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - bandia19-1 17 hours ago (Tue Jan 17 2006 11:24:50 )

I agree, and I thought that switch was subtle and beautiful. Ennis changes the order of the shirts, with his own on the outside, as he accepts finally his love for Jack, and it is his small way of consoling Jack, showing him that he cares, that he will protect his memory and think of him always. Ennis takes the initiative for the first time in his life and holds Jack the only way he now can.

I also thought that the scene in the closet where he hugs the shirt and tries to breathe Jack in was heartbreaking...he is holding the shirt to him as if Jack is in it, face to face, the way Ennis couldn't hold Jack in life....now Jack is gone and he wants to hold him and show him his love, his pain, face to face and its too late...

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - starboardlight 17 hours ago (Tue Jan 17 2006 11:32:53 )

We see Ennis happy and relaxed later, but to me he never seems so alive and vital as he does when they first see each other again. The fulfillment of that long desire, a dream Ennis had thought would never come true, and then the postcard and the buildup to the wonderful moment of being reunited with that one person he could be truly himself with.

there's a been great discussion about the shirt colors, earlier here as well as in other thread. I'd like to point out that in the scene where Ennis sends the "You bet." card, he wears a shirt with blue and brown pattern. The two colors are united and weaving in and out of each other. Just a small detail that means so much.

TOoP/Bruce · « **Reply #14 on:** June 16, 2007, 07:43:26 am »

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - starboardlight 17 hours ago (Tue Jan 17 2006 11:36:54 )

I believe Alma cracks during the dinner scene because she truly still loves Ennis at her core and cannot stand the eternal betrayal and the lie he is making of his emotional life. Earlier at the Thansgiving table she reacts with a derisive look at Ennis as he tries to charm and be the happy daddy for his daughters who obviously adore him. I don't think Alma wants to deny Ennis their love and respect, but wants him to own up to what and who he really is to both himself and herself.

I'm kind of conflicted about this. Alma has been hurt and betrayed by the lie, but I wonder if she quite understands it completely. At the sink, she starts by suggesting that Ennis marries again. That struck me as odd. If she felt that, by being with Jack, Ennis was being unfaithful, why would she suggest he go on to hurt some other woman in the same way?

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - bandia19-1 17 hours ago (Tue Jan 17 2006 11:49:10 )

I wanted to add that Ennis uses the hat again in the scene where Aguirre spys on them....he and Jack are having fun, chasing, wrestling and fall togehter into a kiss...With no reason to hide up there, Ennis seems to "naturally" cover their faces with the hat....even in their intimate solitude, he was hiding behind it...

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOI
by - tomwspoon 16 hours ago (Tue Jan 17 2006 12:14:11 )

My god that's the most beautiful thing I have ever read! And to think it appeared in a review of Brokeback Mountain - how appropriate and wonderful!

Re: I SWEAR I said this 10 days ago--but it's not there.
by - wmcecongirl 16 hours ago (Tue Jan 17 2006 12:55:14 )

I was hoping someone would bring up the speed at which Ennis and Jack's relationship progressed. I just saw the film for the first time today and I absolutely loved it. Like your friend, I was struck by the speed at which this relationship developed and found myself wishing that there had been more build-up--until Jack met Lureen and within 5 minutes they had jumped into the backseat of a car and the timing for their relationship seemed perfectly normal. Then I found myself feeling guilty for applying two different standards to the question "how fast is too fast?" based on the sexual orientation of the people involved in the relationship. We're conditioned to expect a man and a woman to meet and "hook up" and maybe even fall in love within 5 minutes of film, but we aren't willing to make the same leap of faith for a relationship between two men (or two women). Shame on us!

Of course since Ennis and Jack are our main characters, we would *expect* the focus of the film to be on the relationship between them and less on their relationships with the supporting cast members, but that didn't keep me from being mad at myself when I recognized my own double standard.

On a side note, thanks to everyone who has posted here. It's so nice to see intelligent discussion on these message boards for a change and I've really enjoyed your thoughts.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...'
by - Ellemeno 15 hours ago (Tue Jan 17 2006 13:02:09 )

UPDATED Tue Jan 17 2006 13:03:19
About Alma: "She's presented both in the story and the film as if she's had no existence prior to her life with Ennis [we never learn anything about her family]"

We do learn that she has a sister close enough to call to come get the kids when Junior breaks the peanut jars.

Ennis thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could pawthewhiteoutofthemoon. [/quote]

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - henrypie 15 hours ago (Tue Jan 17 2006 13:05:34 )

This thread is to most threads as Brokeback Mountain is to most movies.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - aronnyc 13 hours ago (Tue Jan 17 2006 15:11:19 )

Great analysis. I might add that in The Divine Comedy, Virgil is the one who greets Dante in his search for his love, Beatrice.

"Hesh wants some sex!" - Sealab 2021

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - quiplash 13 hours ago (Tue Jan 17 2006 15:29:14 )

Readers of this thread may be interested in reading an excellent essay posted on the LiveJournal blog of destina (which has also been posted to the LJ community gay_cowboys :-)

Symbolism and symmetry in Brokeback Mountain
http://www.livejournal.com/users/destina/326931.html

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - claud_higgins 13 hours ago (Tue Jan 17 2006 15:50:19 )

I saw this film 3 hours ago and have just read this entire thread. It broke my heart all over again and I actually cried more reading people's heartbreaking interpretations than I did seeing the film.

Of course, that could be because I'd feel like an idiot sobbing in the cinema.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - quiplash 13 hours ago (Tue Jan 17 2006 15:51:51 )

Thank you CaseyC. I must confess I am pleasantly flabbergasted at the high level of discussion, thought, and insight taking place in this one thread.

I do have a favour to ask: You mention the "Jack and Ennis-Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move" thread. Instead of me browsing through hundreds of threads to find it, would it be possible to post a URL that leads directly to that thread. It would save me a lot of time and I'd be very grateful, thanks.

Actually, one post with a list of all the links to threads with this kind of discussion would be wonderful. I wish the forums had keyword searching :-(

Anyway, I'm having a blast. You can feast on Brokeback Mountain for *days*.

Re: Jack's Father
by - banjoist 12 hours ago (Tue Jan 17 2006 16:07:49 )

Metaphor, symbolism, allegory, they all pass right over my head sometimes, so this is a great way to see the film as more than just a narrative.

I have to agree and to disagree about John Twist. Ennis asked Jack about walking down the street and people looking at you just like they can tell. (sorry I can't give the exact quote).

When John Twist talked about Jack had always coming up there talking about how he would bring Ennis back to the ranch to "lick it into shape", and then later it was Randall Malone, but he never came, he knew what Jack was about. And he was insulted that Jack would think his ranch, his work, needed whipping into shape.

John Twist didn't want Jack to learn bullriding because he didn't want Jack to be a competitor. It is in the tone of his voice. It is in the expression that Jack always thought he was too good for them.

John Twist was angry, but he did not want Jack there, and, in fact had never wanted Jack around.

Just one man's opinion. Not real eloquent today, but I wanted to get it out there.

Re: Deliberate Classical references and another 'Jack, I swear...' SPOILERS
by - austendw 2 hours ago (Wed Jan 18 2006 02:29:49 )

UPDATED Wed Jan 18 2006 02:53:01
Well, Alma doesn't know for sure that Jack is still on the scene. Even if he is, she probably thinks that since she and Ennis have had two children and did have some sort of sex life, Ennis "ain't no queer" (and many people on these threads would agree). As Jack appears to have been Ennis's only male lover, she may think it as a temporary aberration. Indeed, I'd imagine Alma views Ennis as an innocent victim of "Jack Nasty", that "predatory" man-siren, who tempted him to such wickedness, who gave him his taste for the sort of sex "that don't make too many babies". So Alma probably thinks that, on balance, being married offers some degree of "protection" against Jack or similar temptations. You know, the love of the right woman (which Alma wasn't) may be able to "cure" him.

TOoP/Bruce · « **Reply #15 on:** June 16, 2007, 07:44:16 am »

by malina-5 6 hours ago (Fri Dec 15 2006 04:23:33 )

oh... this is beautiful and stunningly appropriate to the final scenes, as is the whole comparison to Virgil:

<<Aeneas says to Dido's ghost, "I swear by every oath that hell can muster, I swear I left you against my will. The law of God--the law that sends me now through darkness, bramble, rot and profound night--unyielding drove me; nor could I have dreamed that in my leaving I would hurt you so". >>

I read a fragment of this months and months ago, in response to one of our ubiquitous queries re: the 'I swear', but the whole passage, though one couldn't imagine Ennis uttering so many words, is just so... fitting. It fits like a glove.

"This ain't no little thing that's happenin here", all this very multi-faceted culture that's growing up around the BBM experience. I'll always be a little envious and regretful that I wasn't here right at the very beginning, so I'm grateful to have all these classic threads reposted. I know that's looking backward instead of forward, but it still makes you a 'true oracle' for real in my books, TOoP.

...it's easier to change the sheets/ than change what's in your head
- The Ne-er-do-Wells

Brown Eyes · « **Reply #16 on:** March 16, 2009, 10:03:45 pm »

Bumping for the sake of happy nostalgia! But, also because the idea of BBM and Greek Tragedies or Classical references has come up again recently in Open Forum.

Front-Ranger · « **Reply #17 on:** May 11, 2010, 11:01:33 am »

I was just reading in Mark Asquith's Annie Proulx's Brokeback Mountain and Postcards that Jack's shooting of an eagle the year before echoes the same act by Hercules, who was punished for the shooting by his lover Hylas disappearing, leaving Hercules with only a shirt for remembrance. I'll have to read the story of Hercules and Hylas in depth!

TOoP/Bruce · « **Reply #18 on:** May 11, 2010, 12:12:56 pm »

Quote from: Front-Ranger on May 11, 2010, 11:01:33 am

I was just reading in Mark Asquith's Annie Proulx's Brokeback Mountain and Postcards that Jack's shooting of an eagle the year before echoes the same act by Hercules, who was punished for the shooting by his lover Hylas disappearing, leaving Hercules with only a shirt for remembrance. I'll have to read the story of Hercules and Hylas in depth!

What an interesting observation! I will have to read more about that as well!

Monika · « **Reply #19 on:** May 12, 2010, 03:15:13 pm »

Quote from: Front-Ranger on May 11, 2010, 11:01:33 am

I was just reading in Mark Asquith's Annie Proulx's Brokeback Mountain and Postcards that Jack's shooting of an eagle the year before echoes the same act by Hercules, who was punished for the shooting by his lover Hylas disappearing, leaving Hercules with only a shirt for remembrance. I'll have to read the story of Hercules and Hylas in depth!

wow, very interesting

Front-Ranger · « **Reply #20 on:** May 16, 2010, 08:32:02 pm »

More about Heracles (Hercules) and Hylas is here.

Theocritus wrote:
"We are not the first mortals to see beauty in what is beautiful. No, even Amphitryon's bronze-hearted son, who defeated the savage Nemean lion, loved a boy—charming Hylas, whose hair hung down in curls. And like a father with a dear son he taught him all the things which had made him a mighty man, and famous."

Front-Ranger · « **Reply #21 on:** March 27, 2014, 08:56:20 pm »

Upon watching the movie again after a long break, I was impressed with the character of John Twist. He seemed to be a gay person himself who was criticising Ennis for not stepping up to the plate and being who he was, thereby supporting Jack, his son.

CellarDweller · « **Reply #22 on:** March 28, 2014, 08:07:29 am »

Old Man Twist as gay? I never got that reading.

Sason · « **Reply #23 on:** March 28, 2014, 03:59:44 pm »

Me neither

Front-Ranger · « **Reply #24 on:** March 28, 2014, 09:55:31 pm »

I know it sounds crazy...but just listen to what he says, and how he says it!

southendmd · « **Reply #25 on:** March 28, 2014, 11:33:15 pm »

Sason · « **Reply #26 on:** March 29, 2014, 07:53:24 am »

Lee, nothing in what he says or how he says it indicates to me that he might be gay.

What do you mean?

Front-Ranger · « **Reply #27 on:** March 29, 2014, 10:50:38 am »

Well, first of all, he says, "I know where Brokeback Mountain is." I can expound on this if you like.

But later on in his talk, he tells about Jack's hopes and dreams that he and Ennis would move up to Lightning Flat and have a cow/calf operation there and a sweet life. He speaks with constrained intensity. Behind his words I sense an accusation: Ennis! Why couldn't you embrace your true nature and be with my son and be his partner. Also I sense an angry sadness that his son's hopes and dreams were unrealized. As a parent, I would have been angry at Ennis too, realizing that Ennis could have protected Jack from the hatred of the world. If Ennis had stepped up to the plate, Jack would have been happy and wouldn't have indulged in risky behavior.

Old Man Twist does say that Jack's ideas were "half-baked". I don't really see this as a condemnation but rather an acceptance that Jack had flaws and needed the complementary skills of Ennis, who could have planned everything out and executed it well.

I'm also thinking of a passage in the story where Ennis, meeting the elder Twists, thinks that he doesn't see much resemblance to Jack. This leads me to think that Twist pere never sired Jack. That doesn't mean he's straight or gay per se but it's another puzzle piece. I don't think any of these are new ideas, they've been bounced back and forth before.

Sason · « **Reply #28 on:** March 29, 2014, 10:58:35 am »

Well, I hear what you're saying, Lee, but I don't agree with any of it.

morrobay · « **Reply #29 on:** March 29, 2014, 11:06:10 am »

I agree with Sason. I heard nothing but contempt in his voice when he spoke of Jack and his idea about bringing Ennis to the ranch, and all his other half-baked ideas. I think the actor's portrayal in the movie, his hard voice and cruel words about Jack bringing someone else to LF, demonstrated exactly how he felt about his son and his lifestyle. Not to mention Mrs. Twist looked scared to death of the old man. I heard no sadness in his voice about Jack's unrealized dreams.

Front-Ranger · « **Reply #30 on:** March 29, 2014, 11:29:07 am »

You have some good points, Sonja and butler. Especially about Mrs. Twist looking scared. I welcome your thoughts.

That Ang Lee is maddening sometimes with the way he presents things so ambiguously. Even the visual of Peter McRobbie as Old Man Twist was puzzling. The way he stared at Ennis with his two differently colored eyes. I've heard that there are myths about people with different colored eyes, that they are oracles or witches, or just see things differently. The way he chewed his tobacco and spit it into a cup. He seemed to me to be the Old Man who, in movies and stories, acts as kind of an oracle and sums the story up. There was such a character in McCarthy's No Country for Old Men, who was also blind.

Then, when Ennis comes down the stairs with the two shirts, he actually turns to Twist and presents the shirts, showing the old man that he has them. Or one of them, anyway. The bloodstained shirt of Ennis's is hidden within Jack's denim shirt. Twist doesn't seem to react at all, but Mrs. Twist reaches for a paper bag (like the one Ennis began his journey with) to put them in.

x-man · « **Reply #31 on:** March 30, 2014, 01:39:29 am »

Quote from: Front-Ranger on March 28, 2014, 09:55:31 pm

I know it sounds crazy...but just listen to what he says, and how he says it!

I HAVE listened to what Twist said--hundreds of times, literally. No way he was gay, or angry at Ennis for not being there for Jack. Old manTwist made it clear what he thought of Jack as thinking he was too good for the Twist family, and his dislike for Ennis because Ennis was someone Jack cared about. Whether Twist told Ennis about Randall knowing the effect it would have on Ennis is, I think, up for grabs. Personally, I think not. Twist was not a subtle man.

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Author Topic: Deliberate Classical References and another 'Jack, I swear' -- by CaseyCornelius (Read 42873 times)