A question on religion

[moremojo]

Greetings to all checking in here--

I write this to seek guidance in an area that probably wouldn't neatly fit any of our other forums. I am curious to learn more of any religions or spiritual traditions that see same-sex attraction, affection, and eroticism in a positive light, or see those possessing homosexual attributes or behaviors as valued and important members and contributors to the spiritual community (transgendered qualities also fall within this purview). I am especially interested in traditions that actively support homosexual identity and life rather than merely tolerate them, though information on any of the latter would also be welcome. The religions or traditions in question may be living systems or defunct ones preserved only in scholarly literature and lore.

I am aware that some Native American traditions accorded much honor to people we would now describe as homosexual, but know little about the specifics of such beliefs or the precise identities of the tribes or nations holding such views. Again, any germane information would be appreciated, and I thank in advance all who choose to reply.

[injest]

David knows quite a bit about Native Americans and gays...we were having a discussion about this a few months ago...

let me see if I can find that thread!!

 

[Daniel]

Hey, Scott. Glad I caught you.

"In many Native American tribes, homosexuality in both sexes was accepted as a fact of nature and the homosexual berdache accorded a wide-ranging array of sacred and practical powers and given great respect. Many berdaches cross-dressed, and so inhabited, with social approval, a region "between" the sexes. By all indications, the berdache role was an ancient one, and the respect given to it may well echo an ancient tolerance of variety in human nature that patriarchal cultures have lost. Certain ethnologists believe that some form of berdache practices, such as cross-dressing and homosexual relations by shamans, existed among the ancient Siberians who began migrating from Asia to North America thirty-thousand years ago."

"In such tribes, berdaches played an integral role in the life of the people. They were the ones who gave sacred names, who cut down the Sun Dance pole in the central sacred rituals, who foretold future events. They were famous for their bead and quill work, hide-tanning abilities, and extravagant fancy dress (not all berdaches dressed in women's clothes; it depended on their vision). They were considered good luck to take along on a war party or horse-stealing raid. Many were married as second or third wives to warriors; some became the wives of chiefs. Often berdaches would live together in a group of teepees on the outer edge of the camp, where they would exercise their many roles as doctors, storytellers, matchmakers, and leading scalp dancers. Different names were given to the berdache by different tribes. The Sauk and Fox tribes called the berdache i-coo-coa; the Ojibway (Chippewa) named him agokwa, the Cheyenne called him hee-man-eh; and the Sioux, winkte."

Some interesting berdaches you might want to look into include We'wa (1849-1896) of the Zuni tribe, Hasteen Klah (1867-1937) of the Navajo tribe, and Maurice Kenny (b. 1929) of the Mohawk tribe.

[Daniel]

In ancient China and Japan, homosexuality seems to have been accepted by a number of Buddhist traditions as part of a creative "love-nature" or an extraordinary religious genius. You might want to look further into Qu Yuan, China's first major poet who was a shaman-priest, Kobo Daishi, Zeami (who founded the theatrical style No), and Basho, a Japanese poet and Zen master.

[moremojo]

Hey, Jess and Daniel, thank you for your replies. Yes, I knew that David was knowledgeable in the area of Native American views on homosexuality...maybe he'll come across this thread in time.

It seems like many of the Native American peoples valued their homosexual members to a degree perhaps unmatched in any other known culture or tradition (and I'm including the modern Western civilization in which we live in this). The honor which was accorded them and the central degree to which they were integrated into tribal life are impressive. And Daniel, I noted one of your examples includes a person who is seemingly still living, suggesting that these views and traditions remain viable and pertinent to at least some communities. I am also intrigued to note the geographical range of the nations who esteemed these particular people, ranging from the Mohawk of the Eastern Seaboard and nations of the plains like the Cheyenne and Sioux, to the southwestern peoples like the Zuni and Navajo.

This is a great start, and most helpful. Thanks again for the valuable information and references.

[Daniel]

In some Sufi traditions (which is predominantly male oriented), there are a number of writings which indicate that love of a homosexual nature was a reflection of Divine Mystery. " 'God is Beauty' says the Qur' an; for many great Persian mystics that beauty was most exquisitely and profoundly seen, tasted, and adored in the beauty of a beardless young man. The love of young men, in this vision, did not separate the seeker from God; on the contrary, as in the vision of Plato, it could be an initiation into divine splendor and bliss." If you want to look more into this, you might consider researching Farrid ud-Din Attar, Musharrif ud-Din Sadi, Muhammad Shams ud-Din Hafiz (1307 - 1388), Fahkruddin Iraqi (1213 - 1289), Muwlana Nur ud-Din Jami (1414 - 1490).

[moremojo]

I just now read your second reply, Daniel. I remember reading that there was a tradition in Japan that homosexual male relations were introduced into that country by Buddhist priests. This is almost certainly an oversimplification of social history, but it is interesting to note the ancient conflation of Buddhism, in this part of the world, with homosexual practices and attitudes.

I am quite fond of Basho in his articulation and development of haiku, but did not realize that there are homoerotic associations or motifs in his story. I will definitely look into that, as well as the other names you mentioned.

[moremojo]

Wow...just read your third reply, Daniel. I am familiar with the names that you mention here, but have read very little by them. The mystical Persian poet with whom I am most familar is Rumi, who does not seem to have invoked this theme of seeing the divine in the beautiful young male, or at least not to such a pronounced degree.

This tradition is particularly fascinating in how it presents such a different face of Islam to that which we have become accustomed in the modern West. Perhaps this validation of the homoerotic is a dormant element within the current Muslim psyche, waiting hopefully to spring one day to renewed life and inspiration?

[Daniel]

Actually, Rumi was greatly inspired by Farid ud-Din Attar, whose book "The Conference of the Birds" is one of my favorite epic poems. I am not extensively familiar with the Sufi traditions or their teachings, but I have read "The Love Poems of Rumi" as well and find that if any of his poems hinted at eroticism (Rumi's, not Attar's), it was of a hetero-erotic nature.  This just leads me to believe that Sufism could be greatly personalized.

[David In Indy]

Hey, Jess and Daniel, thank you for your replies. Yes, I knew that David was knowledgeable in the area of Native American views on homosexuality...maybe he'll come across this thread in time.

It seems like many of the Native American peoples valued their homosexual members to a degree perhaps unmatched in any other known culture or tradition (and I'm including the modern Western civilization in which we live in this). The honor which was accorded them and the central degree to which they were integrated into tribal life are impressive. And Daniel, I noted one of your examples includes a person who is seemingly still living, suggesting that these views and traditions remain viable and pertinent to at least some communities. I am also intrigued to note the geographical range of the nations who esteemed these particular people, ranging from the Mohawk of the Eastern Seaboard and nations of the plains like the Cheyenne and Sioux, to the southwestern peoples like the Zuni and Navajo.

This is a great start, and most helpful. Thanks again for the valuable information and references.

Hi Scott!

I meant to post this an hour ago but I keep getting pulled away from the computer.

Daniel did such a wonderful job of outlining the Native American attitudes of homosexuality, there's really not much I can add.  

I remember my mother telling me about the "basket and bow" test, which sometimes would be given if a child was suspected of being a wink'te, the Lakota word for "half man" or "gay". The child would be instructed to walk into the middle of a ring encircling a basket and a bow. After the child entered the ring, it was set on fire. The child was then told to grab one object and quickly leave the ring. If the child was a male and grabbed the basket instead of the bow, this would prove the child was indeed a wink'te.  I'm not sure if this test was used on girls. I suppose it could have been.

Wink'te were highly honored among the Sioux. They were considered holy and wise. They were a "bridge" between male and female; a perfect cosmic vibration that would insure balance and peace within the tribe. Wink'te were elevated to a near god like position in the Sioux tribes; their visions and medicine always trusted. Wink'te were considered a sacred gift from WakanTanka (God).

Many members on the Lakota side of my family have told me that in addition to Native American Wink'te, the Sioux also adopted non Native wink'te into their tribes. I have never seen any written evidence of this, but I was told this was done on several ocassions in my specific tribe. It's a shame these wonderful Sioux qualities and traditions were left out of our history books.

[Daniel]

Thanks David, for that compliment. I think I should have taken Comparative Religion in college, but I got stuck in Anthropology. Still got a lot out of it, so that's good.

Anyway, in addition to the sects that I mentioned earlier, there are some Christian sects which seem to promote homo-erotic love (without the sex of course). I believe there are some legends that St. Francis of Assisi might have been "unattracted to women". Of course, that could mean anything. Regretfully, the Catholic church seems to play down the sex thing completely in its more spiritual orders, but there are some traditions in both the Franciscan Order and the Jesuit Order which could be homo-erotic in nature. Like I said, its difficult to tell because the Catholic church plays down the sex thing completely.

[David In Indy]

Thanks David, for that compliment. I think I should have taken Comparative Religion in college, but I got stuck in Anthropology. Still got a lot out of it, so that's good.

Anyway, in addition to the sects that I mentioned earlier, there are some Christian sects which seem to promote homo-erotic love (without the sex of course). I believe there are some legends that St. Francis of Assisi might have been "unattracted to women". Of course, that could mean anything. Regretfully, the Catholic church seems to play down the sex thing completely in its more spiritual orders, but there are some traditions in both the Franciscan Order and the Jesuit Order which could be homo-erotic in nature. Like I said, its difficult to tell because the Catholic church plays down the sex thing completely.

You took Anthropology in college Daniel? I didn't know that! Very cool!! 

I have heard some similar things about St. Francis of Assisi. I think Saints Ambrose and Anselm were known to think outside the box as well. But, yeah you're correct Daniel. The Catholic Church has a terrible history of supressing sexuality. I had to leave the church because of this intolerance. I am what they call a "Cradle Catholic".

This is one of the reasons I am so proud of my Sioux heritage. The Sioux not only accepted homosexuality, they embraced it, honored it and celebrated it. 

[Daniel]

Actually I graduated with a degree in Anthropology.... and I'm doing next to nothing with it, lol.

But it's nice to be noticed. Thanks again.

[Kerry]

Ooh, this is such a fascinating thread. Right up my alley, so to speak. Thank you, Scott.

I spent some time as a friar, cloistered within a Carmelite monastery. Though there were "special friendships" formed within my monastery, I never saw any proof of overt homosexual activity. I was very young at the time and developed a particularly strong crush on a fellow friar, who just happened to be drop-dead gorgeous, by the way. He sure did look stunning in his Carmelite habit! But nothing ever came of it, and I would never have wanted anything to come of it. In my personal experience, it would have been very difficult to have conducted a tryst in my monastery.

We were kept busy by our superiors every minute of the night and day, chanting the Divine Office throughout the day in chapel, fulfilling other prayerful observances, meditation, contemplation, communal meals taken in silence in the refectory whilst listening to religious lessons being read to us. Speaking of silence, its observance was demanded. Within the cloister, signs reading "Silence" were posted at regular intervals. And let's not forget the manual labour. There was always plenty of manual labour. My monastery was a working farm. We had no farm labourers to help us. We were the farm labourers. Yes, folks, it's true, I really do know how to milk a cow!

We took our vows of Poverty, Chastity and Obedience very seriously. Contrary to popular belief, it was the vow of Obedience, not Chastity, that finally convinced me that I did not have a religious vocation. For example, one day I had spent many hours polishing the cloister floors and was very happy with the result. I was standing back admiring my work (sin of pride?) when the Prior came along and told me to re-polish the cloister (a huge job).  I explained that I had just finished polishing the cloister and he responded, very calmly and gently, "Re-polish the cloister floor, Brother." It was an "obedience" test I was being put through, and I failed it big time. Boy, I sure did resent having to re-polish that cloister! Things such as that finally convinced me to "leap over the wall."

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that we were kept busy 24/7 and when it came time to return to our tiny, individual cells at night, the only thing we had the energy to do was fall asleep immediately. No energy, or desire, for hanky-panky. And I'm sure life in the medieval monasteries would have been much harder and more exhausting than I experienced in the 60s-70s. It is my personal belief that much of the scuttlebutt about horny monks, racing each other off within the medieval cloisters is just that, scuttlebutt. However, having said that, I have absolutely no doubt that by saying so, I am leaving myself wide open to now being told about all the individual, well documented accounts of such monastic liaisons.

I can speak from my own experiences only. 

[Daniel]

Well if you recall, St. Francis did not begin his spiritual devotion as a monk; he was the son of a merchant family in Venice, whom I think were either dyers or silk tailors or something like that. "Brother Sun, Sister Moon" is one of my favorite films - and St. Francis's actor is drop-dead gorgeous himself... He also looks very compelling in a habit.  So its quite easy to imagine him as being gay.

[Kerry]

David, I would be very interested to hear what you think about the word "berdache." I understand it's viewed as a derogatory, insulting term by Native Americans. Did I read about that somewhere, or have I got that wrong?

[Kerry]

Well if you recall, St. Francis did not begin his spiritual devotion as a monk; he was the son of a merchant family in Venice, whom I think were either dyers or silk tailors or something like that. "Brother Sun, Sister Moon" is one of my favorite films - and St. Francis's actor is drop-dead gorgeous himself... He also looks very compelling in a habit.  So its quite easy to imagine him as being gay.

The Franciscans are one of the four orders of mendicant friars (not monks) within the Catholic Church, the other three being Carmelite, Augustinian and Dominican. IMHO it is probably more likely that St Francis had a crush on St Claire, if anyone. Platonic, of course!!!     

[Daniel]

It might be derogatory. I know it is a European word imposed upon the culture by those who first observed the phenomenon (early white settlers). It is a Persian word that means "kept boy" or "male prostitute", so it very well may be derogatory.  I suppose much in the same way that "Indian" is derogatory. I think the word is still used in ethnographic circles to discuss the same phenomenon which occurs in multiple Native American tribes, but that there is no derogatory implications. Still, perhaps there is a need for a new word.

[injest]

Hi Scott!

I meant to post this an hour ago but I keep getting pulled away from the computer.

Daniel did such a wonderful job of outlining the Native American attitudes of homosexuality, there's really not much I can add.  

I remember my mother telling me about the "basket and bow" test, which sometimes would be given if a child was suspected of being a wink'te, the Lakota word for "half man" or "gay". The child would be instructed to walk into the middle of a ring encircling a basket and a bow. After the child entered the ring, it was set on fire. The child was then told to grab one object and quickly leave the ring. If the child was a male and grabbed the basket instead of the bow, this would prove the child was indeed a wink'te.  I'm not sure if this test was used on girls. I suppose it could have been.

Wink'te were highly honored among the Sioux. They were considered holy and wise. They were a "bridge" between male and female; a perfect cosmic vibration that would insure balance and peace within the tribe. Wink'te were elevated to a near god like position in the Sioux tribes; their visions and medicine always trusted. Wink'te were considered a sacred gift from WakanTanka (God).

Many members on the Lakota side of my family have told me that in addition to Native American Wink'te, the Sioux also adopted non Native wink'te into their tribes. I have never seen any written evidence of this, but I was told this was done on several ocassions in my specific tribe. It's a shame these wonderful Sioux qualities and traditions were left out of our history books.

David I have a question.

I think I read somewhere ( ) that wink'tes got 'married' to warriors in the tribe. Were the men that married them considered homosexual?

Would you (from todays' viewpoint) consider the warriors to be gay?

[David In Indy]

David, I would be very interested to hear what you think about the word "berdache." I understand it's viewed as a derogatory, insulting term by Native Americans. Did I read about that somewhere, or have I got that wrong?

No, you're correct Kerry. Berdache is considered offensive, especially by gay Native Americans. I flinched a little when I read it in Daniel's post, but he was correct to use it in his message. Because it's a word used quite often, especially among white, Christian people. In fact, I think it was the Christian missionaries who first used that word. Most Sioux will use the word "wink'te" when referring to gay people. Other tribes have their own words. Wink'te literally means "half man" in Lakota.

Most Native people interpret the word berdache to mean "hermaphrodite" which obviously is totally inaccurate. I suppose the early missionaries didn't have any other word to use, so they picked that one. 

[David In Indy]

David I have a question.

I think I read somewhere ( ) that 'berdaches' got 'married' to warriors in the tribe. Were the men that married them considered homosexual?

Would you (from todays' viewpoint) consider the warriors to be gay?

Warriors would somtimes be married to a wink'te, if the tribe was fortunate enough to have a wink'te. This was considered a great honor for the warrior. But the warrior would probably also be married to a female. I don't know the complete answer to that question Jess. Maybe I can find something about it on the Internet.

But I do know TWO things:

1. It did happen.

2. It was considered a great honor.

And as Daniel pointed out, gay men were often married to chiefs as well.

[Kerry]

No, you're correct Kerry. Berdache is considered offensive, especially by gay Native Americans. I flinched a little when I read it in Daniel's post, but he was correct to use it in his message. Because it's a word used quite often, especially among white, Christian people. In fact, I think it was the Christian missionaries who first used that word. Most Sioux will use the word "wink'te" when referring to gay people. Other tribes have their own words. Wink'te literally means "half man" in Lakota.

Most Native people interpret the word berdache to mean "hermaphrodite" which obviously is totally inaccurate. I suppose the early missionaries didn't have any other word to use, so they picked that one. 

Many thanks for your response, David. Now that I think about it, I suspect it was probably from you, at another thread, that I read about the term "berdache."

[David In Indy]

I know we have a few other Native American Bettermostian members here as well. It would be interesting for them to chime in here with their knowledge of this subject. Hopefully they will. 

[Daniel]

I certainly did not mean anything inflammatory or derogatory by use of the term. The book I retrieved it from seemed very gay-friendly so I assumed it was an acceptable term. I apologize if I caused you any stress or pain by using it.

[David In Indy]

I certainly did not mean anything inflammatory or derogatory by use of the term. The book I retrieved it from seemed very gay-friendly so I assumed it was an acceptable term. I apologize if I caused you any stress or pain by using it.

NO! I'm glad you used it!! 

I said so in my previous post. Maybe you didn't see it Daniel. You didn't cause me any stress or pain at all! 

[Daniel]

I'm glad of that. But to prevent any such pain in the future (to you or others), perhaps you can think of an all-inclusive term that we might use to apply to these spiritual positions in Native American tribes. I noticed you tend to use the term wink'te, and I would be honored to use that as a culturally specific term if other Tribes would not be opposed to it. Naturally, we would attempt to use the tribe-specific term when referencing wink'te. So for example we might say "the Ojibway wink'te, agokwa" unless we were referencing a specific Ojibway agokwa, in which case we might say "the Ojibway agokwa, **name**".

That sounds like it might get confusing at some point, but I am willing to try if it will be more respectful to both the traditions of those Tribes and the wink'te (singular and plural?) themselves.

[David In Indy]

I'm glad of that. But to prevent any such pain in the future (to you or others), perhaps you can think of an all-inclusive term that we might use to apply to these spiritual positions in Native American tribes. I noticed you tend to use the term wink'te, and I would be honored to use that as a culturally specific term if other Tribes would not be opposed to it. Naturally, we would attempt to use the tribe-specific term when referencing wink'te. So for example we might say "the Ojibway wink'te, agokwa" unless we were referencing a specific Ojibway agokwa, in which case we might say "the Ojibway agokwa, **name**".

That sounds like it might get confusing at some point, but I am willing to try if it will be more respectful to both the traditions of those Tribes and the wink'te (singular and plural?) themselves.

Thanks Daniel!! That simple gesture alone speaks volumes. 

I think the word "wink'te" would be acceptable. Most Native Americans would recognize it, even if they are not from any of the Sioux tribes. It's a Lakota word, but for some reason the Lakota language seems to be universal among Native Americans; much like English has become universal in the Western world.

Thanks Daniel!