A question on religion

[Daniel]

Thanks David, for that compliment. I think I should have taken Comparative Religion in college, but I got stuck in Anthropology. Still got a lot out of it, so that's good.

Anyway, in addition to the sects that I mentioned earlier, there are some Christian sects which seem to promote homo-erotic love (without the sex of course). I believe there are some legends that St. Francis of Assisi might have been "unattracted to women". Of course, that could mean anything. Regretfully, the Catholic church seems to play down the sex thing completely in its more spiritual orders, but there are some traditions in both the Franciscan Order and the Jesuit Order which could be homo-erotic in nature. Like I said, its difficult to tell because the Catholic church plays down the sex thing completely.

[David In Indy]

Thanks David, for that compliment. I think I should have taken Comparative Religion in college, but I got stuck in Anthropology. Still got a lot out of it, so that's good.

Anyway, in addition to the sects that I mentioned earlier, there are some Christian sects which seem to promote homo-erotic love (without the sex of course). I believe there are some legends that St. Francis of Assisi might have been "unattracted to women". Of course, that could mean anything. Regretfully, the Catholic church seems to play down the sex thing completely in its more spiritual orders, but there are some traditions in both the Franciscan Order and the Jesuit Order which could be homo-erotic in nature. Like I said, its difficult to tell because the Catholic church plays down the sex thing completely.

You took Anthropology in college Daniel? I didn't know that! Very cool!! 

I have heard some similar things about St. Francis of Assisi. I think Saints Ambrose and Anselm were known to think outside the box as well. But, yeah you're correct Daniel. The Catholic Church has a terrible history of supressing sexuality. I had to leave the church because of this intolerance. I am what they call a "Cradle Catholic".

This is one of the reasons I am so proud of my Sioux heritage. The Sioux not only accepted homosexuality, they embraced it, honored it and celebrated it. 

[Daniel]

Actually I graduated with a degree in Anthropology.... and I'm doing next to nothing with it, lol.

But it's nice to be noticed. Thanks again.

[Kerry]

Ooh, this is such a fascinating thread. Right up my alley, so to speak. Thank you, Scott.

I spent some time as a friar, cloistered within a Carmelite monastery. Though there were "special friendships" formed within my monastery, I never saw any proof of overt homosexual activity. I was very young at the time and developed a particularly strong crush on a fellow friar, who just happened to be drop-dead gorgeous, by the way. He sure did look stunning in his Carmelite habit! But nothing ever came of it, and I would never have wanted anything to come of it. In my personal experience, it would have been very difficult to have conducted a tryst in my monastery.

We were kept busy by our superiors every minute of the night and day, chanting the Divine Office throughout the day in chapel, fulfilling other prayerful observances, meditation, contemplation, communal meals taken in silence in the refectory whilst listening to religious lessons being read to us. Speaking of silence, its observance was demanded. Within the cloister, signs reading "Silence" were posted at regular intervals. And let's not forget the manual labour. There was always plenty of manual labour. My monastery was a working farm. We had no farm labourers to help us. We were the farm labourers. Yes, folks, it's true, I really do know how to milk a cow!

We took our vows of Poverty, Chastity and Obedience very seriously. Contrary to popular belief, it was the vow of Obedience, not Chastity, that finally convinced me that I did not have a religious vocation. For example, one day I had spent many hours polishing the cloister floors and was very happy with the result. I was standing back admiring my work (sin of pride?) when the Prior came along and told me to re-polish the cloister (a huge job).  I explained that I had just finished polishing the cloister and he responded, very calmly and gently, "Re-polish the cloister floor, Brother." It was an "obedience" test I was being put through, and I failed it big time. Boy, I sure did resent having to re-polish that cloister! Things such as that finally convinced me to "leap over the wall."

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that we were kept busy 24/7 and when it came time to return to our tiny, individual cells at night, the only thing we had the energy to do was fall asleep immediately. No energy, or desire, for hanky-panky. And I'm sure life in the medieval monasteries would have been much harder and more exhausting than I experienced in the 60s-70s. It is my personal belief that much of the scuttlebutt about horny monks, racing each other off within the medieval cloisters is just that, scuttlebutt. However, having said that, I have absolutely no doubt that by saying so, I am leaving myself wide open to now being told about all the individual, well documented accounts of such monastic liaisons.

I can speak from my own experiences only. 

[Daniel]

Well if you recall, St. Francis did not begin his spiritual devotion as a monk; he was the son of a merchant family in Venice, whom I think were either dyers or silk tailors or something like that. "Brother Sun, Sister Moon" is one of my favorite films - and St. Francis's actor is drop-dead gorgeous himself... He also looks very compelling in a habit.  So its quite easy to imagine him as being gay.

[Kerry]

David, I would be very interested to hear what you think about the word "berdache." I understand it's viewed as a derogatory, insulting term by Native Americans. Did I read about that somewhere, or have I got that wrong?

[Kerry]

Well if you recall, St. Francis did not begin his spiritual devotion as a monk; he was the son of a merchant family in Venice, whom I think were either dyers or silk tailors or something like that. "Brother Sun, Sister Moon" is one of my favorite films - and St. Francis's actor is drop-dead gorgeous himself... He also looks very compelling in a habit.  So its quite easy to imagine him as being gay.

The Franciscans are one of the four orders of mendicant friars (not monks) within the Catholic Church, the other three being Carmelite, Augustinian and Dominican. IMHO it is probably more likely that St Francis had a crush on St Claire, if anyone. Platonic, of course!!!     

[Daniel]

It might be derogatory. I know it is a European word imposed upon the culture by those who first observed the phenomenon (early white settlers). It is a Persian word that means "kept boy" or "male prostitute", so it very well may be derogatory.  I suppose much in the same way that "Indian" is derogatory. I think the word is still used in ethnographic circles to discuss the same phenomenon which occurs in multiple Native American tribes, but that there is no derogatory implications. Still, perhaps there is a need for a new word.

[injest]

Hi Scott!

I meant to post this an hour ago but I keep getting pulled away from the computer.

Daniel did such a wonderful job of outlining the Native American attitudes of homosexuality, there's really not much I can add.  

I remember my mother telling me about the "basket and bow" test, which sometimes would be given if a child was suspected of being a wink'te, the Lakota word for "half man" or "gay". The child would be instructed to walk into the middle of a ring encircling a basket and a bow. After the child entered the ring, it was set on fire. The child was then told to grab one object and quickly leave the ring. If the child was a male and grabbed the basket instead of the bow, this would prove the child was indeed a wink'te.  I'm not sure if this test was used on girls. I suppose it could have been.

Wink'te were highly honored among the Sioux. They were considered holy and wise. They were a "bridge" between male and female; a perfect cosmic vibration that would insure balance and peace within the tribe. Wink'te were elevated to a near god like position in the Sioux tribes; their visions and medicine always trusted. Wink'te were considered a sacred gift from WakanTanka (God).

Many members on the Lakota side of my family have told me that in addition to Native American Wink'te, the Sioux also adopted non Native wink'te into their tribes. I have never seen any written evidence of this, but I was told this was done on several ocassions in my specific tribe. It's a shame these wonderful Sioux qualities and traditions were left out of our history books.

David I have a question.

I think I read somewhere ( ) that wink'tes got 'married' to warriors in the tribe. Were the men that married them considered homosexual?

Would you (from todays' viewpoint) consider the warriors to be gay?

[David In Indy]

David, I would be very interested to hear what you think about the word "berdache." I understand it's viewed as a derogatory, insulting term by Native Americans. Did I read about that somewhere, or have I got that wrong?

No, you're correct Kerry. Berdache is considered offensive, especially by gay Native Americans. I flinched a little when I read it in Daniel's post, but he was correct to use it in his message. Because it's a word used quite often, especially among white, Christian people. In fact, I think it was the Christian missionaries who first used that word. Most Sioux will use the word "wink'te" when referring to gay people. Other tribes have their own words. Wink'te literally means "half man" in Lakota.

Most Native people interpret the word berdache to mean "hermaphrodite" which obviously is totally inaccurate. I suppose the early missionaries didn't have any other word to use, so they picked that one.