Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move-- by CaseyCornelius

[TOoP/Bruce]

Casey, thank you for this post.   
by - HobokenJeff (Fri Jan 27 2006 07:19:16 )   

I read your post some time ago, and couldn't remember having noticed the camera technique when I saw the film. Upon further viewings, I have completely noticed it, and I am convinced that you nailed Ang Lee's intent. Jack is struggling with a heartbreaking decision. As an enhancement to Jake's performance, Ang Lee wants to add a visual illustration of what's going on.

Over one of Jake's shoulders Ennis is "in the picture" and over the other shoulder he is "out of the picture". I honestly don't think I would have grasped this scene in the way I do now if you hadn't pointed this out to me. Thank you.


The moon hiding its face   
by - CaseyCornelius (Fri Jan 27 2006 15:05:57 )   

UPDATED Fri Jan 27 2006 15:07:19
starboardlight:

Another 'moon' observation, in appreciation of your pertinent observations.

The last time we see Ennis and Jack in a night-time embrace just before the argument/lake scene/final meeting, there is a brief 'reaction' shot showing the outside of the tent after the shot of them asleep which parallels earlier shots of the tent/love-cocoon. The exterior is bathed in the same moon-white light, but from what I recall [and I may be wrong about this - will have to see it again to confirm] the moon is not visible in the shot. This may be a bit of a stretch, but might it be a visual suggestion that the 'union of lovers' is about to be challenged - ie. by the following morning's disastrous argument?

I'll stretch even a little farther - it might even be a visual representation of the psychological tension which Ennis is feeling in knowing that the next morning he must tell Jack that their one of their scarce 'fishing trips' will have to be pre-empted due to his work. It links with Ennis's obvious discomfort - rubbing the door handle of the truck, hemmin and hawing - before coming clean and uncomfortably telling Jack the bad news.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - nonon99_99 (Fri Jan 27 2006 19:47:17 )   

UPDATED Sat Jan 28 2006 00:21:57
As one of the ubiquitous reflections that happen in all the levels, at the very beginning of Brokeback Mountain, there exist another group of numbers. In that scene a truck comes forward to the camera, it then stops and Ennis takes off, at this moment we can see a group of numbers on a plate labeled on the the truck. Since these numbers are so clear in our view, I don't believe they are choosen randomly. But I can't recall what these numbers are, all I can remember is they inculde '3' and '4'. I hope someone provide his/her analysis to us.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - meryl_88 (Fri Jan 27 2006 21:23:43 )   
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Another remarkable thread. Thank you!


Re: archiving this thread   
by - Flickfan-3 (Fri Jan 27 2006 21:42:09 )   

good idea Ellemeno
I think tomorrow or Sunday, I am setting the threads I love to the right format, printing what is there now, and then will catch up every couple of days--some of the threads are not moving as fast as they were initially anyway.

To think that people pay big money for a college professor to teach them much less than I am learning now on these boards--these comments are gold to someone who loves Brokeback but also anyone who simply loves film.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sat Jan 28 2006 15:46:23 )   

UPDATED Sat Jan 28 2006 15:50:14
nonon99 99:

I'll look for the license numbers on the truck at my next viewing.
It would be interesting to speculate as to whether they have any significance. They're not mentioned in the screenplay. Whereas, the exact numerals on Ennis's mailbox at the end ARE specified in the screenplay. So I would assume that any symbolism regarding them is entirely intentional.

Two thoughts which I've encountered RE: the numerals 1 and 7:

1] Your thoughts a couple of posts back regarding the Chinese numerological symbolism of 1 + 7 = 8.

2] Some threads and posts on other boards have toyed with the idea that 17 commemorates the number of years Jack and Ennis had together on their 'fishing trips' - following the four year hiatus after brokeback.

3] They're random numbers - but this last is highly unlikely as McMurtry and Ossana specify them precisely in the screenplay.

This should perhaps be a separate thread. If we continue the discussion we should initate another subject thread.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - derekisdman (Sun Jan 29 2006 15:25:38 )   
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Ang Lee isn't Antonioni or Welles - you're looking too far into the scene.

___________________
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Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 30 2006 08:24:53 )   

UPDATED Mon Jan 30 2006 08:49:12
Ang Lee is a serious film maker who has declared Antonioni as one major influence upon him. And every film-maker knows Welles and Greg Toland's innovations as common practice and employ them as part of a 'filmic' vocabulary as much as Mozart and Beethoven listened to Haydn and integrated all of his musical innovations as a musical hommage.
If you read the other posts on this board, pertinent points appear linking Lee's visual vocabulary to both film-makers. The whole sub-thread with the subject of the Fireworks scene essentially discusses a Toland/Wellesian positioning of Ennis monumentally within the frame which is a direct 'steal' from 'Kane'.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - derekisdman (Mon Jan 30 2006 12:43:51 )   
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I didn't read the entire thread, no, but I skimmed it. I didn't mean to imply that Lee had failed to utilize any form of Wellesian or Antonionesque language techniques in his work. I believe that the fireworks scene you mentioned is one example that displays this (not completely obviously, but quite noticeably to those familiar with film language), what I’m suggesting is that your overanalyzing of various sequences of the film, while impressive, are on the verge of pretentiousness. I think you're giving the film, and Lee for that matter, too much credit.

I've stated before that you could potentially turn any disaster of a film into a masterpiece if you throw in metaphors and symbols frequently enough with interpretation, but interpretation is not intention. I don't believe (not that I know for a fact), that Lee intended to convey all of these abstract ideas and meanings that you're insinuating. Whether you base the quality of a film on your own interpretation or on the actual intent of the director I suppose is up for debate. I'm not implying that Brokeback was a disaster of a film, nor am I trying to discredit Lee as an admirable filmmaker, but he is not nearly on the same level as Antonioni or Welles, and is definitely not as innovative.

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Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Mon Jan 30 2006 12:50:19 )   

I don't believe (not that I know for a fact), that Lee intended to convey all of these abstract ideas and meanings that you're insinuating.
______________________________________

Maybe not consciously....my point is above in my first post. But I'd still be willing to bet he did.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - nonon99_99 (Mon Jan 30 2006 16:55:49 )   
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UPDATED Mon Jan 30 2006 17:01:12
So, seeing so many things, people should pretend not knowing them, in order not to be 'on the verge of pretentiousness'.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Jan 30 2006 21:27:15 )   

UPDATED Mon Jan 30 2006 22:34:46
Pretentious ?! MOI ??

derekisdman, I'd be interested in any insightful comments you can offer to prove that Brokeback is a LESSER film that I'm imagining it to be or effectively argue away the visual devices, literary allusions and symbolic content that I and others are finding. It's not an exercise in innovation, to be sure, but that doesn't make it any lesser a film. And, to blithely and inappropriately invoke the names of Antonioni and Welles in a straw man argument regarding innovation to bash Ang Lee in comparison is a little unfair don't you think? Bergman's 'Winter Light', Renoir's 'Rules of the Game', and Clement's 'Forbidden Games' are not stuffed with innovation, but they are some of the most respected films ever made. The naturalistic content and provenance of the original story preclude Ang Lee making the film into a virtuoso exercise.

A film as wonderfully crafted, visually detailed, thematically consistent, and intellectually honest as Brokeback invites interpretation and, perhaps, generates some over-stimulating conversation. But, I think there's enough obvious consistency in Ang Lee's visual choices thoughout the film to convince me that I'm not engaging in over-analysis, but excited and insightful discovery of what it conveys.

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - writer_cb (Mon Jan 30 2006 22:10:52 )   


This makes me kind of sad...it's like, Jack gave up on loving Ennis?! That seems to be what you're saying the camera stuff meant...but I might be wrong (probably am, silly me).

And the way Jack's dad, at the end, mentioned Jack talking about Ennis, and then later about cabining-up with a different guy...seems Jack was going with other guys. That just bothers me. Their love was so true, it makes me sad that Ennis found this out after



**SPOILERS AHEAD**

after Jack's death. Isn't it sad? It makes me sad.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - Ellemeno (Mon Jan 30 2006 22:10:57 )   

>> Pretentious ?! MOI ??



Ang Lee's peers sure seem to think highly of him.

"You got a better idea.......hunh?"


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - STAN39520 (Mon Jan 30 2006 22:18:53 )   

Read anything you want into this movie! What I got out of it was "Jack" would of done anything to keep Ennis in his life. Jack took whatever he could from "Ennis" however it was clear to me that Jack would dump his wife if he could live with any man. Jack was living in a fantasy world. In the back of his mind he knew they were never going to be together as a couple ever but he would love to Ennis anytime he could even if was just once in a great while!


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Mon Jan 30 2006 23:06:19 )   

UPDATED Wed Feb 1 2006 11:24:27
nono99...the plate numbers on the truck are 3 3447. The space between the two threes has a white emblem of a rider on a bronco, what they use for the Wyoming plates and Roadsigns. Interesting, 3 means communication and travel, and in between the two threes is a Cowboy riding a bronco. Two coming together in a communication. 4 represents home life and children, while 7 represents marriage and legal affairs, and ultimately judgment. The numbers are progressional, and return to exactly where they began. The five numbers added together give us 3 in numerology - a communication, a journey, it is representative of Mercury, the messenger, the storyteller.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - zigzo_pazoru (Mon Jan 30 2006 23:53:42 )   

I agree.

I love your scale/weighing the options observation. So plausible. And maybe another point, in keeping with the text, was to make it clear that things being "torqued" back to the way they were was Ennis' safety net, knowing Jack could (and would) keep Ennis in focus as long as he was alive. Maybe "I wish I knew how to quit you!" foreshadows the only thing that could rid Jack of his love for Ennis (which was, ultimately, death). Ironically Ennis' love was evermore forcefully in focus after the death occurred. Only when Jack left him--REALLY left him--did he realize that things staying the way they were wasn't how they were meant to stay. Now the love he lost is love he can finally admit to needing no matter what. "Jack, I swear."

I've absolutely loved this entire thread. I graduated from film school last year and am quite embarrassed to say I have only seen the film once and so was very emotionally involved and spent a minority of my time during those 2+ hours analyzing screen shots. Thank you for your observations!

~~~~~~~~
I'll quote whatever I feel like quoting, GOSH!!


Re: Chinese numerology and a final blessing in the Epilogue   
by - zigzo_pazoru (Tue Jan 31 2006 00:42:44 )   

Casey, I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before (has it?)

When Ennis finds the shirts in Jack's closet, Jack's is on the outside and Ennis' is barely visible but entirely intertwined (sleeves and all). Which pretty much depicts how their relationship was for the 20 years they lived it. When we see the shirts again in the final scene, Ennis' is on the outside and Jack's is on the inside. He buttons Jack's shirt...both shirts are clearly visible and intertwined and we know he's going to hold onto Jack for a very long time.

I did notice that when I watched it the first time and thought it was a very nice touch. Poor Ennis... I can't really get over how bad I feel for him. For everyone, even.

~~~~~~~~
I'll quote whatever I feel like quoting, GOSH!!


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Tue Jan 31 2006 16:02:00 )   

Ellemeno:
Agreed, Ang Lee is certainly considered to be in the upper echelon of international contemporary directors.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - chooken (Tue Jan 31 2006 17:54:55 )   
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I saw this movie for the second time yesterday and noticed it! It really stuck in my head too, that beautiful way the camera moves and fades, I just thought... wow. Fantastic shot.


Four peas and as much ice cream as you'd like to eat.


Thanks for the Heads Up!   
by - TheFabulousThomasJ (Tue Jan 31 2006 20:44:32 )   

. . .two guys that I work with haven't seen it yet, so I'm going with them Thursday to see it again.

I'll watch for this scene.

Tom

Back by popular demand!


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Feb 1 2006 09:03:32 )   

flashframe:

Fantastic exegisis of the license plate numbers. I don't doubt that you're likely spot on with the observation. Are the meanings of the numbers from Chinese numerology or some other source? Incredible that the very progression of the numbers might spell out the chronological action of the story.
I know that other directors, notably Hitchcock [as a joke], have done this. Why not Ang Lee? In such a visually rich, incredibly thought well thought film, it stands to reason that every detail is woven together.
Thank you.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Wed Feb 1 2006 11:19:27 )   

UPDATED Wed Feb 1 2006 11:35:03
Casey, thanks. The meanings of the numbers is not directly from Chinese numerology. I find that as anything reduces to its base, including numerology, the more universally it applies to all schools of order because it all flows from a single unknownable source. There are always, as I am sure you know, common denominators in any religion or school of thought. In this case Western numerology grew out of Eastern numerology, and the base components remain the same. So this numerological interpretation is just as applicable in my opinion.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Feb 1 2006 14:50:26 )   

flashframe777:

I thought we rabid posters would have exhausted the subtle meanings and symbols of Brokeback, but, obviously, more revelations wait.


Lake Scene's Symmetry to Earlier 'Fishing Trip' Scene   
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Feb 2 2006 08:10:34 )   

UPDATED Sun Mar 12 2006 20:45:05
As with so much in this most visually and thematically subtle of films, Ang Lee and Rodrigo Prieto are not intent on being clever with the shot, but in integrating seamlessly into the texture of that all important Lake Scene.
Upon an eighth viewing the other night I noticed that a similar camera movement [in a film where a camera movement is rare - most of the time Ang Lee sets the viewer in the scene as an observer without any striking camera movements as comment], dollying around Jack, appears earlier in the film. It follows the scenes where Jack is looking for his blue parka and Ennis is packing his fishing gear [the wonderful scene with Alma's knowing "You forgetting something?" line], the excitement of both of them unbearably palbable in contrast to their work-a-day lives.
Cut to Jack by the river, in the blue down parka, chucking corn cobs into a pot -- he hears Ennis's truck approaching, rises with obvious delight to face Ennis and the camera sweeps across him exactly the same way as if expressing his bliss with a shiver of delight.
What a contrast to the later Lake Scene, with the same camera movement evoking the exact opposite feeling in Jack - frustration, ennui with Ennis's litany of excuses etc. - with Ennis BEHIND him, all beside the still, torpid lake.


Re: Lake Scene's Symmetry to Earlier 'Fishing Trip' Scene   
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Feb 2 2006 17:09:27 )   

Forgot about one other similar camera movement [making for a total of three], which is in the flashback that closes the Lake Scene. As the younger Jack watches the younger Ennis ride away the camera dollies around him again, capturing that wonderful epiphany of the complete and utter bliss on Brokeback - creating yet another contrast to the Lake Scene immediately previous.


Re: Lake Scene's Symmetry to Earlier 'Fishing Trip' Scene   
by - flashframe777 (Thu Feb 2 2006 17:10:15 )   
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The last shot in the film is of JACK TWIST.

Inside Ennis dreams...outside the elemental essence of Jack, the wind is moving upon the face of the green and gold field.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - PeterDecker (Thu Feb 2 2006 19:35:19 )   

Thank you CaseyCornelius and everyone else in this thread. Thank you very much.


Re: Lake Scene's Symmetry to Earlier 'Fishing Trip' Scene   
by - Flickfan-3 (Thu Feb 2 2006 22:05:18 )   

Forgot about one other similar camera movement [making for a total of three]...another example of the power of three in this film...


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - stitchbuffymoulinfan (Fri Feb 3 2006 20:31:17 )   

>>Despite Casey's brilliant observation, I prefer to hang on to these lines, and believe that had Jack had not decided to leave Ennis.


I so agree!
The thought of Jack leaving Ennis behind is just too heartbreaking...

Casey has truly made some excellent, excellent observations. You seem so intelligent; your wonderful study of this film has made the film even stronger and more powerful in my mind (which I didn't even think was possible, I respect this movie that much).

www.jlodown.com
www.petitionspot.com/petitions/jlodown



Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - naun (Sat Feb 4 2006 06:41:12 )   

Could the "swinging" of the camera also be likened to the pendulum of a clock? This shot leads directly into Jack's line about "never enough time".

I keep thinking somebody has already suggested this interpretation, but I can't think where.


Re: Lake Scene's Symmetry to Earlier 'Fishing Trip' Scene   
by - Flickfan-3 (Sat Feb 4 2006 06:59:07 )   

and wind is invisible and ever present---just like Jack's spirit...



"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - zaltru (Sat Feb 4 2006 07:27:19 )   

Back to the numbers on the mail box, I don't have any knowledge of numerology, so none of those thoughts occurred to me. They were extremely interesting to read, and even comforting. What I wondered is whether it was a message about how many people are homosexual? Can it be 1 out of 7? A grasp at straws on my part.


Re: Lake and Rivers   
by - RobertPlant (Sat Feb 4 2006 08:04:06 )   

Sorry, I'm sure you have already talked about this, but I can't find the posts:

Is this the only time they encountered each other in front of a lake?
If yes, may the quiet water symbolize their relation has come to a dead point maybe to the end?



Re: Lake and Rivers   
by - NewHorizons37 (Sat Feb 4 2006 09:10:14 )   

Not answering your question, but adding to it. The night scenes right before the big confrontation scene show them sleeping in the tent with Ennis curled up around Jack. Then it cuts to an exterior shot of the blue tent with the water flowing by near them. I had the impression they were camped by a river as usual. So where is this lake in relation to where they camped?


Re: Lake and Rivers   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sat Feb 4 2006 09:37:46 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 4 2006 09:48:03
It looks to me that the lake in the day scene is a different location from the night scene. The lake is next to the lot in which they are packing up. They had probably horse-ridden to a more remote part of the wilderness, as we see them do several times during the film, where they would have camped.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - rgettys (Mon Feb 6 2006 20:40:02 )   

Please let me take a moment to sincerely thank you for starting a string of posts regarding film and the enjoyment of the medium. God bless you. I enjoyed these academic and analytic views on Ang Lee's work. This is what these boards were created for.


Re: Lake and Rivers   
by - fernly (Mon Feb 6 2006 21:01:21 )   

a thought about lighting and shadow...
In Jack's room... people have described how the camera angle - looking out from the closet at Ennis - is as if Jack is looking out at Ennis.
What I saw today (4th viewing), and was struck by, is that when Ennis goes into the closet, as he touches Jack's coat and shoes, and finds the shirts and holds them to him, he is for that whole time himself embraced by a shadow...Jack's shade, perhaps...
I didn't notice it the first 3 times (what with the tears and all), but with all the precise choices Lee and Prieto made in this film, I think maybe it's not by chance that a soft-edged, textured, damn near palpable shadow surrounds and holds Ennis as he holds the shirts.

P.S. Casey - if I'd just typed, and thought, faster, bumping would have been moot. Thank you so much for your insights on this and other threads.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - lcalee (Mon Feb 6 2006 21:17:49 )   

After reading this thread, I now have to see the film twice more! Once more to catch everything I read here, and once more just to bathe in the beauty of it! LOL

"The root of all unhappiness is unmet expectation."


Re: Ennis/Alma Scene   
by - kid-8 (Mon Feb 6 2006 23:47:42 )   

The screenwriters had that scene in the original screenplay.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - kid-8 (Mon Feb 6 2006 23:53:53 )   

The original version of the screenplay clearly describes the final shot in the film...

Ennis looks at the ensemble through a few stinging tears.

ENNIS
Jack, I swear....

He looks out the window, at the great bleakness of the vast northern plains....

THE END


Re: Lake and Rivers   
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Feb 9 2006 13:19:31 )   

fernly:

I'll go even farther in extending your observation to other key points of the film. Perhaps it's Jack's 'shade' in the scene you mention, but shadow or darkness always seems to accompany the clandestine nature of their love throughout the film:
1] their first encounter takes place in the wonderfully shadowed profile of Brokeback, the mountain almost seeming to shield them from prying eyes - I'm always amazed at this scene, that Ang Lee holds resolutely for a long time to one shot while Ennis scrambles around on all fours, drunkenly debating whether to go back to the sheep
2] the alley scene - enough said
3] in Mexico, Jack and the hustler are enveloped in the darkness
4]] the romance of the final meeting -- the dusk scene is framed with just a portion of the gloaming sky visible in the upper left hand corner and the two boys tiny figures in the lower foreground of the river-landscape - occurs just before one of their more intimate colloquies, specifically Jack mentioning, after some good natured, phatic ribbing, how much he misses Ennis - an astoundingly honest and heart-rending moment in Jake Gyllenhaal's performance.

Just a few thoughts, undeveloped, to agree with you.


Re: Lake and Rivers   
by - fernly (Thu Feb 9 2006 17:57:51 )   

hi casey,

all four scenes you cite, yes, absolutely.
there're some aspects with this idea i'll just have to go back and watch for, not sure how clearly i'm remembering.

(i've felt the emotional effects, without having the language to articulate what Lee and Prieto were doing, as the qualities of light and shadow modulate throughout the film. i really appreciate what you and other posters have done to explain processes such as day for night, film stock choices, framing, and holding shots, as well as of course the power of the symbols throughout)

there are images from the book, which i have at hand, that pertain to the "shadow or darkness [that] always seems to accompany the clandestine nature of their love"

"the shadow of the foreman's hand moving into [white light]"
- not his hand, just the shadow of it. Aguirre never actively moves against them, but he doesn't have to, just casting a shadow over their time together contributes to their being kept apart by fear, even though Jack tries to shield Ennis by only telling him part of what Aguirre said

"the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings was darkened by the sense of time flying"
- Jack/Jake, as you said, said it best

and the image that has stayed with me for months since first reading the story (before seeing the film), powerful enough to stay on its own parallel track next to the equally powerful flashback image in the film...

"They had stood that way for a long time in front of the fire, its burning tossing ruddy chunks of light, the shadow of their bodies a single column against the rock."
- the boys as they could be but only in shadow, together against the intractable rock of the forces that would separate them

fern

Re: Lake and Rivers   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Feb 13 2006 11:18:13 )   

fernly:

And there are the numerous shots of the free outdoors which Ennis and Jack inhabited on Brokeback now shut in by the town buildings and abodes in which they dwell. One shot in particular is the shot introducing us to the meagre ranch house which Ennis Alma and their two daughters inhabit - the camera shoots out the kitchen door showing Ennis unloading his horse trailer and then tracks through the kitchen to show Alma doing her quotidian wifely duties with Ennis joining her a few seconds later.


Re: Lake and Rivers   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Feb 15 2006 00:04:17 )   

And, of course, the alley scene shows the first drawing back of Ennis into the shadows, hiding the overwhelming, uncontrollable desire for Jack by retreating from the bright daylight, the open vista visible from the alley-way being the life he now leaves behind to live in emotional shadow.


The Wind Rocking the Trailer, Hissing   
by - CaseyCornelius (Fri Feb 17 2006 06:42:15 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 18 2006 15:18:07
flashframe777:
Again, I've been subject to the inadequacies of certain theater's sound systems. But, on a ninth viewing I finally heard the wind blowing underneath Ennis's trailer in the penultimate shot. It follows Alma, Jr.'s exit and is another wonderful connection to our and Ennis's thoughts of Jack's presence with him as well as a link with the opening paragraphs of Proulx's story - "Ennis del Mar wakes before five, wind rocking the trailer, hising in around the aluminum door and window frames."--"The wind strikes the trailer like a load of dirt coming off a dump truck, eases, dies, leaves a temporary silence".

It didn't strike me until this post that Proulx's image of 'a load of dirt' gives almost the sense that Ennis will remain in that lonely state the rest of his days - the load of dirt alluding to HIS burial mound?

Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - muscla_1 (Sat Feb 18 2006 15:22:27 )   

It's not all that unique. It's called "rack focus."

"Jack, I swear..."


Re: The Wind Rocking the Trailer, Hissing   
by - flashframe777 (Sat Feb 18 2006 16:14:25 )   

a link with the opening paragraphs of Proulx's story - "Ennis del Mar wakes before five, wind rocking the trailer, hising in around the aluminum door and window frames."--"The wind strikes the trailer like a load of dirt coming off a dump truck, eases, dies, leaves a temporary silence".
___________________________________________________________________________
The wind...truly remarkable Casey.

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - StarryKat (Mon Feb 20 2006 21:53:46 )   

Casey, I'm a 20 year old student, I study film and television, I'm in my last year and I wanted to thank you for creating this thread as it has really proved to me how amazing the actual cinematography is in this film.
I cannot wait for a repeat viewing. It NEEDS to be done as there is so much to witness. This film is truly haunting.

Thank you so much.


Katie


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Feb 23 2006 00:04:52 )   

Agreed, beautifully and simply filmed with little attempt to use any virtuosic or self-conscious effects, but achieving a captivating and compelling result.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - spare_time (Thu Feb 23 2006 12:59:25 )   

I have not read the entire thread, don’t know whether someone has mentioned these. If so, my apologies for being repetitive….

I may be slightly off topic, but I thought the scene where Lureen’s parents visit the baby is beautifully framed. In that shot, Jack is at the door, looking inward, he sees Lureen with her parents and the baby. The way the picture is framed makes you feel, at a subconscious level, that Jack has always been an outsider of the Newsome family… he did not belong… then the remark of Lureen’s father about “rodeo can get it”, Jake Gyllenhaal’s reaction, his eyes are priceless…..

Another scene, which is one of my favorite, perfectly executed (and heartbreaking) is the “one shot thing” sequence. The entire sequence, Ennis was filmed from his backside (even when he was speaking). At a subconscious level, the audience gets a sense that Ennis cannot face what he had to face after the first night…

Ang Lee is a true master….


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Fri Feb 24 2006 13:16:54 )   

I'd second positively my admiration for that shot of Ennis from the back. Though, I do find it striking that the shot immediately prior to this is of the coyote hide hoisted on the tree stump within the sheep-herd. It's as if Ennis, as the physcially adept one in the relationship [note the irony that we see that Jack's marksmanship is not good enough to hit 'his' coyote, but Ennis shoots two of them within a few scenes], is reacting to his previous feelings of 'shame' upon seeing the eviscerated sheep the night after his and Jack's first love-making in the tent, by 'stringing' up the symbolic source of his shame. This shot immediately precedes his approaching Jack on the hill-side, kneeling down in order to speak his acceptance to Jack of their 'one shot thing' they've got going.
I also find it so touching that Jack, even though he should be tending the 'lower' camp, has actively sought out Ennis on the upper hill-side camp in order to be with him.


Similarities in Ride With The Devil.   
by - nonon99_99 (Sat Feb 25 2006 06:35:01 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 25 2006 06:38:29
There is also a unique camera move in the final scene of Ride With The Devil. In it Jake Roedel has his gun aiming at Pitt Mackeson, we see the gun occupies the most of the screen and moves from far left to far right, with Roedel's face at the inner most position of the picture. I find its similarities with the one in BBM discussed here, considering the visual, and the dramatic crisis they both reveals. I am eager to hear people's analysis on RWTD but am amazed that so few of them. It is a film deserves the same attention of BBM.


Re: coyote killings   
by - Flickfan-3 (Sat Feb 25 2006 07:47:12 )   

Casey, you mentioned that you thought Ennis shoots two of them (coyotes) within a few scenes...I did not get that impression...I thought the telling of the shooting and then the shot of the weathered skin hoisted on the tree limb were the same animal---I asssumed showing how the skin had deteriorated was part of showing how time passed on the mountain...and that in their attempt to protect their sheep from predators, using that one warning emblem would not be enough--that they needed to be constantly on guard since that skin was only transitory due to the elements and their moving the sheep to different grazing grounds...
I am not criticizing your comment about Ennis's shame at leaving the sheep open to predators while he dallied with Jack in the tent because that is obviously what Ennis was feeling...and I am sure that killing the coyote and marking his territory allowed him to alleviate his guilt to certain extent...but that transferrence of his guilt to a third party also lends credence to why Ennis would choose to believe that Jack was murdered by gay bashers instead of dying by accident...and with this continuation, I do go off topic

Ennis could shift his guilt/pain in not being there in August when Jack was probably died--and for perhaps choosing someone other than Ennis as Mr. Twist said Jack was planning to do---remember in the story Ennis only chose murder over accident after he is confronted with Jack's plans by Mr. Twist...Jack was not there to be questioned or punished for his infidelity as Ennis had threatened to do at the final reunion/confrontation, so Ennis's imagination gave him an internal method to compensate and impose his retribution...transference of his guilty wish to make Jack pay for entertaining the idea of leaving Ennis onto the backs of the "imagined" tire iron wielders...just as he transferred his guilt over pleasure in sex with Jack and leaving his charges vulnerable to the back of the coyote he killed at random--that may not have been the actual killer even if it was a predator--

That part of the material is obviously an "object lesson" -- the fact is that the coyote could have just as easily killed the sheep when Ennis was on the mountain if the coyote had been stealthy enough and the sheep vulnerable enough--however it may not have had time to eviscerate it ---as I remember and thought unusual the throat of the sheep is untouched---which is not how coyotes usually bring down their prey from what I understand--thought they usually try to rip the throat open before they start to actually feed on the sheep...so that was a decision where visual imagery/symbolism ranked over physical accuracy...if anyone has more specific, first-hand knowledge of that method would like to know...always interested in how things work

"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - redgryffindorclaw (Sat Feb 25 2006 08:08:47 )   

great observation.. never really noticed the camera movement.. but its ang lee... his a genius at camera movements...


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - newyearsday (Sat Feb 25 2006 08:27:40 )   

Long live this thread. May it never be taken off or lost in the immensity of this board. Amen.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - silkncense (Sat Feb 25 2006 10:34:12 )   

Brokeback will reach their audiences without recourse to conventional filmic devices, cliches or vocabulary. So little of Brokeback seems 'clever' or 'arty', but, my Lord, how profoundly it's reaching audience members by tapping to a depth which is rarely seen in such an ostensibly 'simple film. Look at what it's pulled out of some of the discussion on only these boards.

Perfectly stated Casey.

[TOoP/Bruce]

by - CaseyCornelius (Sat Feb 25 2006 15:14:34 )   

Flickfan-3:
Terrific to have another enlightening discussion with you.
I'm moved by all of your post, and I sense we're in agreement over the significance of the eviscerated sheep.
But, I'm going to hold to my thought that there are two different coyote killings - the first happens the day Ennis comes back from the herd camp, mentioning the shooting of a coyote with 'balls the size of apples', and enacting his bathing-scene.
I'm positive that it is a second coyote which is hoisted up in another sheep-herd location, later in the film. We as the audience see Ennis, Jack and the herd moving to higher ground and this is where the hoisted coyote carcass is desplayed. We know Ennis shot and killed another one, since we've heard him speak of the first 'hit' and know that Jack is not capable of hitting one.
I'm convinced that this second coyote carcass is meant to be considered as not just a warning emblem within the sheep-herd, but also a potent token of Ennis asuaging and triumphing over his confused feelings - hence the admission-'one shot thing' dialogue with Jack immediately following.


Re: coyote killings   
by - RobertPlant (Sat Feb 25 2006 15:21:11 )   

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/9492/schermata10xh.png

two coyotes on this pole. We see it after the dead ship scene and the Jack washing the shirts scene...

I'm packing my bags for the Misty Mountains
over the hills where the spirits fly


Re: coyote killings   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sat Feb 25 2006 15:27:21 )   

UPDATED Sat Feb 25 2006 15:38:47
Robert Plant:
Thanks for the image from the film.
I'm always so mesmerized by the weight of the events ocurring in the story at that point that I've failed to see that there might have been two coyote hides. The image you've posted is a little dim so I can't quite make out clearly that there are two, but I'll take your word for it.

And add the following from a response to Ellemeno and henrypie about the same subject which I've borrowed from the latter's Garden of Eden Symbolism thread:


More Biblical symbolism from Numbers 21:7-9 relates to this as Moses interceded in a plague of biting serpents, lifted up a fiery serpent in the wilderness and set it on a standard to cure the children of Israel of their fear. Much as Ennis shoots the coyote [maybe even the same one that Jack missed?] and hoists it as a symbol of his ridding himself and Jack of the cursed image of the gutted sheep [to be related later in the film to the shot of the mutilated body of Earl].

Re: coyote killings Lee's idea   
by - Flickfan-3 (Sat Feb 25 2006 22:04:11 )   

Casey
I looked at the photo Robertplant linked to and agree that the photo seems to show two separate skins...I never thought Jack was responsible for any killing--that inability is part of his "persona"--he can't kill anything, even his love for Ennis...I thought the screenplay in the new edition with writers' essays might be some help with one/two coyotes but there is no mention of the shot of the coyote pelt-banner at all...just Ennis's boast to Jack about killing one...so this device seems one of the changes Lee brought to the shooting script...just like making blue the color of Jack's first pickup instead of Proulx's green...

I guess I am surprised that it was Lee whose only exposure to coyotes would have come from American films who added it with its layers of symbolism instead of McMurtry or Proulx who have deep personal knowledge about the West yet did not think to use the coyote pelt since it is fairly common superstition/folk lore--if you kill a predator, you leave its body there to show/warn/scare off others of that ilk--For example, if you kill a rattlesnake, you leave the body there to warn off its mate since rattlesnakes always travel in pairs...

I would really like a script copy that has three colors, coded to Proulx, McMurtry/Ossana, or Lee, indicating the source of the material...we know that more than half of the script is basically pure Proulx, some definitely the screenwriters' input, and some like this of the coyote warning flag I guess to be Lee's input...I would assume that Lee's input would be mainly in visual imagery and set blocking...it was only Lee's moving the motel scene's dialogue to the later reunion that I have heard Proulx really objected to since McMurtry/Ossana must have left that scene mostly intact in their early drafts...sorry some of this wandered off topic


"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - jkingqm-1 (Sun Feb 26 2006 02:28:08 )   

Thank you for starting this thread on the camera move in the lake scene. I loved it the first time I saw it! Another great cinematography piece of work happens at the Fourth of July picnic. A low camera shot shows Ennis prodominately in the left frame, sobbing wife and kids in the lower right, with fireworks going off overhead. OMG, great cinematography!!!! (If there is not a thread on this shot then please cut and paste this reply to start a new one).

I didn't get to read all of this thread (I already spend too much time reading too many good BBM forums like this :-p), BUT, in this thread a discussion was started about "moon" shots. Did anyone else but me notice that in the scene when Jack meets a trick in Mexico in the dark alley, that the streetlight looked like a crescent moon?


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - jkingqm-1 (Sun Feb 26 2006 03:51:00 )   

CaseyCornelius said:

"I do find it striking that the shot immediately prior to this is of the coyote hide hoisted on the tree stump within the sheep-herd. It's as if Ennis, as the physcially adept one in the relationship [note the irony that we see that Jack's marksmanship is not good enough to hit 'his' coyote, but Ennis shoots two of them within a few scenes]..."

Dayum, I never really noticed all of that! Thank you for pointing it out. It was a nice scene when Ennis shot the elk and then shot his lip off (Ennis speaks and has fun!?!?) at Jack that Jack couldn't shoot. I didn't connect it all (the scene where Jack tries to shoot the coyote, misses, and mutters "damn" and the scene where the Ennis's coyote is simply shown strung up.) Dayum! Ang Lee is so good.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - IamPhineus (Sun Feb 26 2006 04:45:24 )   

oooh maybe because Jack decides that he has had enough of Ennis and that it is time he 'quits him', his death is then sympbolic for the fact that he cannot live without Ennis. Thus as soon as he rejects him/leaves him his life ends.
What do people think?


-- Elia Kazan: 'he was a pudding of hatred'. How does one be a pudding exactly? --


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - spare_time (Mon Feb 27 2006 12:47:35 )   


Casey wrote:
--------------------------------
I'd second positively my admiration for that shot of Ennis from the back. Though, I do find it striking that the shot immediately prior to this is of the coyote hide hoisted on the tree stump within the sheep-herd. It's as if Ennis, as the physcially adept one in the relationship [note the irony that we see that Jack's marksmanship is not good enough to hit 'his' coyote, but Ennis shoots two of them within a few scenes], is reacting to his previous feelings of 'shame' upon seeing the eviscerated sheep the night after his and Jack's first love-making in the tent, by 'stringing' up the symbolic source of his shame. This shot immediately precedes his approaching Jack on the hill-side, kneeling down in order to speak his acceptance to Jack of their 'one shot thing' they've got going.

I also find it so touching that Jack, even though he should be tending the 'lower' camp, has actively sought out Ennis on the upper hill-side camp in order to be with him.
--------------------------------

I did notice the two coyote hides hoisted on the tree stump, but it’s not clear to me when Ennis shot them. Sorry – but I ma having trouble understanding the significance of the dead coyotes , how they relate to Ennis’ “one shot thing” conversation.

I also find it very touching that Jack actively sought out Ennis on the upper hill-side camp in order to be with him. What an excruciating day it must have been for Jack – after he washed Ennis’ shirt, did his chores, he was left to ponder what Ennis was thinking and how Ennis will be reacting. But true to Jack’s nature, he is brave to come to the sheep (and Ennis).


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Feb 27 2006 18:54:09 )   

UPDATED Thu Mar 2 2006 15:22:31
spare time:

Great to discuss with you on several threads this day.
You've had a busy time posting.

Simply put, I see Ennis as 'working out' his inchoate understanding and confused feelings always through some physical, often violent, expression of his frustration or resolution.
Examples are the wounding/fight the last afternoon on Brokeback, the Fireworks scene, and the apallingly stupid attack on the bruiser in the truck following the Thanksgiving fiasco with Alma. All in keeping with Annie Proulx's conception of Ennis as a supremely physical being [ in contrast to Jack as verbal, demonstrative, talkative, full-of-blarney ] -in Proulx's description Ennis is 'scruffy and a little cave-chested, balanced a small torso on long caliper legs, possessed a muscular and supple body made for the horse and for fighting'.

So I see Ennis's shooting and 'posting' of the coyote as his way of validating some strength to himself. He deals with his inchoate understanding and confused feelings about the previous night's explosive sex with Jack - seconded visually in the louring clouds as he rides alone, the ominous music, the look of confused shame on his face as he views the sheep with this action.

Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - momoro (Mon Feb 27 2006 19:08:55 )   
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Thank you, CaseyCornelius, for pointing out this element in the film. I am very interested in the formal qualities of cinema, but in such an emotionally rich and overpowering movie as this, these kinds of concerns tend to be overlooked on the basis of one viewing. The camerawork here sounds intriguing and very meaningful, and I will look for this when I next see the film.

Nil ego contulerim iucundo sanus amico.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Feb 27 2006 21:43:21 )   

momoro:

I'm with you on this one - the overpowering nature of the film is precisely because all of the fantastic photography details and 'formal qualities' are seamlessly integrated into and serve the emotional honesty, subtlety, and profound truths of the story. A miracle of a film, as I'm fond of stating - incredible to believe that it would all fall apart if a single false moment existed so delicately woven together are all of the elements.

Re: the night alley shot   
by - Flickfan-3 (Tue Feb 28 2006 08:42:37 )   

Did anyone else but me notice that in the scene when Jack meets a trick in Mexico in the dark alley, that the streetlight looked like a crescent moon?
don't you think that was specific to show that 1)the relationship between Jack and Ennis was waining and 2) Jack would never have the "full" relationship with anyone else
Just like the street lights in the scene outside the country dance where Jack and Randall are sitting are "false" full moons--meaning this relationship is only a sham of the one Ennis and Jack share...

"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - Ellemeno (Tue Feb 28 2006 22:46:05 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
>> Ennis was filmed from his backside (even when he was speaking). At a subconscious level, the audience gets a sense that Ennis cannot face what he had to face after the first night…

Thank you. So obvious once it's pointed out. Lately, it doesn't feel like a day is satisfying enough unless I figure out or am taught some new bit of BBM discovery.


Got you a extra blanket I'll roll up out here and grab forty winks


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - flashframe777 (Wed Mar 1 2006 01:09:34 )   

Yes, thanks for putting words to Ennis being filmed from behind. That was a bit like stopping time, and zooming in on an important extremely understated yet crucial detail in the lifeblood of this film.

"You bet." --Ennis del Mar


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - zuraffo (Wed Mar 1 2006 01:41:20 )   

Bump, excellent post

The dead sheep on the hill after their first night always had a symbolic meaning to me. A very christian one at that. It's the Bible's Tradition that an animal, especially the sheep is always used to die in place of a sinner to cleanse his sin. And It seems to me that having seen the sheep dead reinforced Ennis sense of guilt.

The last scene has several powerful parallels. One of the most poignant sign is the part where Alma Jr. said :"Yeah, he loves me". Notice Ennis and Jack never said anything about "love" throughout the WHOLE movie. That scene speaks volume to me. considered that Alma Jr only knew her boyfried for less than two years, while Ennis and Jack had known each other for at least 20 years.

Also I believe that what Ennis was swearing was essential that he will stand it "as long as he can ride". This is the parallel to an earlier scene when Jack ask him what to do about their relationship and Ennis committed (unconciously) that:
"If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it"
"for how long?"
"For as long as we can ride." And then add
"This thing that we have here, it's got no end to it" (something like that).

I have never considered Ennis running away/ or in anyway denied his love for jack. In his own way, he was loving Jack with all he had. The last "I swear" was simply a renewal of pledge.

There was something liberating about the last scene. After the daughter drove away, Ennis was again left with the memory of jack, alone.

One of the most successful part of the movie, and essential what made it a masterpiece, is that it leaves so much space, in between all the symbolism and parallelism, for the audience to interpret. It's a show that speak to your heart, not your brain. Damn precious and rare of a gem among today's movie.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Wed Mar 1 2006 23:13:32 )   

UPDATED Thu Mar 2 2006 21:24:31
zuraffp:

"Damn precious and rare of a gem among today's movie."


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hear, Hear !!
One casulty in my experience post-Brokeback [or I should say post 10 viewings of same] -- and in common with numerous other posters on this board -- is that I seem to have lost all patience with the mindless obviousness of so much other commerical film and television. So much of Brokeback has the exquisite sensitivity and depth of the finest classic foreign films.
I can barely stand to watch anything else within the North American entertainment industry anymore. Maybe it will drive all of us back to true live drama, music, and truly artistic visions.

Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - spare_time (Thu Mar 2 2006 15:20:10 )   


Casey wrote:
-------------------
So I see Ennis's shooting and 'posting' of the coyote as his way of validating some strength to himself. He deals with his inchoate understanding and confused feelings about the previous night's explosive sex with Jack - seconded visually in the louring clouds as he rides alone, the ominous music, the look of confused shame on his face as he views the sheep with this action.
-------------------

The shot of Ennis riding alone up the ridge of the mountain to the sheep "the morning after", with clouds looming above, and the ominous music playing is a classic shot. He looks so lost, so lonely and at the same time despite the iconic cowboy image very vulnerable.... I like how Ang Lee set up that shot - beautiful, sad and poetic.

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - CaseyCornelius (Thu Mar 2 2006 22:31:00 )   

spare time:
The shot of him riding high above the distant plains and hills is so telling. Ennis is completely cut off from any guiding social reference in his confusion over the previous night's eruption of uncontrollable feelings with Jack.
It's a brilliant visualization of the line from Proulx's story, Ennis "on the mountain flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back" -- "suspended above ordinary affairs".


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - savvygal (Sun Mar 5 2006 23:38:44 )   

bot where it should be...

ang lee was robbed tonight with the loss of "best picture".
bringing this remarkable thread back to the foreground so that it's apparent that this film should have won "best picture"....


Camera movement noted   
by - momoro (Mon Mar 6 2006 14:04:46 )   

CaseyCornelius, I wanted you to know that I had the pleasure of seeing Brokeback Mountain for a second time this past Saturday, and I noted the intricate camera movement you so carefully describe in your opening post for this thread. I was looking for it on the basis of your careful observation, and was thrilled to confirm for myself that it was there.

Clearly a visual metaphor for Jack's thoughts and feelings at this juncture of the story, the effect is so subtle and unobtrusive that it could easily be overlooked on a conscious level upon first acquaintance with the film. I think it registers on a subliminal level, suggesting how the filmmakers are appealing to our unconscious in how we orient ourselves towards the unfolding story, and this no doubt helps to explain the resulting film's powerful hold on so many.

Thank you again for your close readings and insightful observations on this remarkable movie.

Nothing compares, I think, when thinking right, to a good friend.

Re: Camera movement noted   
by - CaseyCornelius (Sat Mar 11 2006 22:07:40 )   

momoro:

<<the effect is so subtle and unobtrusive that it could easily be overlooked on a conscious level upon first acquaintance with the film. I think it registers on a subliminal level, suggesting how the filmmakers are appealing to our unconscious in how we orient ourselves towards the unfolding story, and this no doubt helps to explain the resulting film's powerful hold on so many.
>>

Absolutely agree with you. Along with a total absence of any 'agenda' - even though the film-makers have been accused of such - the visual effect of the film is miraculous in its subtlety. I love your describing the camera effect under discussion as subliminal, because that is so in keeping with the powerful affect of the film.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - palsuess-1 (Sun Mar 12 2006 00:57:38 )   

does anyone know where i can find more technical info on this film


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - andrewscotth (Sun Mar 12 2006 16:50:08 )   

Brilliant, absorbing post which I have got so much out of reading - thanks to all for contributing particularly Casey. This film will go down as a real classic for study around the world for students of film, drama, cinematography, writing etc. A huge emotional film experience, it is built on an amazing depth of artistic detail which is slowly revealed the more times you see it. I have never been to see a film so many times and am still learning more about it and enjoying the experience and wanting to go back again. I am actually "studying" it as if I was back at University and enjoying doing so!

Despite many cinema viewings I had not picked up on the camera signifance of the lake scene (possibly because I always find that scene about the most painful - sort of hits you and absorbs you completely) nor the camera shot which suggests Jack's ghost or spirit looking out at Ennis from the closet where the shirts hang. That thought sends a shiver down my spine. If there is such a thing I am sure that is where the spirit would have lingered at that moment and would have been watching from. Beautiful insight from that poster.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - meryl_88 (Sun Mar 12 2006 20:53:15 )   

Casey,

I've just enjoyed re-reading most of the posts on this thread and am more and more in love with Ang Lee's wonderful attention to detail, not to mention your insights and those of other posters.

I wanted to mention a detail that I noticed in the Lake Scene on my ninth viewing, and this thread seemed the logical place to do it. Surely someone else has remarked this somewhere, but I am sure I saw the faint echo, on Jack's left cheekbone, of the bruise he received from Ennis on their last day on Brokeback.

I don't remember seeing this mark in other scenes of the film, but I was amazed and touched to see it here, in the last scene that they have together. Just as the shirts were marked permanently with blood, Jack was marked, too. This is a small but incredibly telling detail that I am sorry I missed til now. I will look for it in other scenes when I can go back again.

One other thing leaped out at me in this scene. After Ennis threatens Jack about Mexico, he spits with great violence as he walks away. I noticed Jack flinching at this spit and was suddenly reminded of the way John Twist spits into the coffee cup in the Lightning Flat scene. How many times had young Jack been on the receiving end of just such a vehement expression of contempt?


Jack's Wound and Ennis's Spitting   
by - CaseyCornelius (Mon Mar 13 2006 06:43:10 )   

meryl 88:
Great to hear from you. I had always thought there was something physically unusual or notable about Jack in that scene, but had not thought that it was the 'resurfacing' of the bruise on his face. There are other parallels to the scene that last afternoon on Brokeback - Ennis's inarticulate denial of the clear love he has for Jack, an awkward embrace as both drop to their knees which is both a hug and a shoving away akin to the rolling down the hill in the earlier scene. It makes perfect sense that the 'wound' which Jack has always carried would re-surface in this, the most intensely emotional encounter they have in their life with all the unsayable and unsaid things surrounding their difficult and separate lives rising around them. It adds to the Bruderschaft theme which was explored in the Classical Allusions thread:

[reposted]

I'd noticed the spitting as well and explored it in the Ennis's Maledictions thread as one of three such instances of it in the film including the one by Jack's father:

[reposted]

Re: Jack's Wound and Ennis's Spitting   
by - meryl_88 (Mon Mar 13 2006 16:48:04 )   

Thank you for your comments and those links, Casey! Very helpful in understanding all that's going on there.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - gpm497 (Tue Mar 14 2006 04:45:17 )   

UPDATED Tue Mar 14 2006 04:50:27
Thanks to Casey, flashframe, flickfan and all the others who contributed to this impressive thread. It took me three days to read it. I'm truly humbled with your insight and even more with your devotion in sharing your thoughts with us.

I will copy just a few words that I've written elsewhere because they relate to the issues that Casey and flashframe touched upon above. I was glad to see that someone else has felt the same already...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since I've seen Brokeback Mountain, I can't get myself to watch another movie, and I've tried. I can't even watch any TV, I just can stand it, it all seems so trite, cheap and irrelevant to anything.

Something like that has never ever ever happened to me before.

I know this feeling will pass but still I'm amazed that it has such an effect...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.... I believe that when the art piece of this scale and reach is created even the ones that created it may not be aware of absolutely all the meanings of what they made. Creating an art work doesn't have to be 100% conscious and calculated process, and it rarely is, and it's good that it so.

What I want to say is, we should continue to search for what the movie means to us, and the word of the author is a really valuable help.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Re: riding the ridge line   
by - Flickfan-3 (Wed Mar 15 2006 05:30:00 )   

UPDATED Wed Mar 15 2006 05:33:20
late response to your comment about Ennis's riding the ridge line--physically the ridge line is the midway point between two valleys or like the edge of the cup or bowl--
does this not also illustrate the fact that Ennis is always on the edge of his belief system so to speak because he refuses to commit to Jack and refuses to admit to himself actually that he is homosexual--he is trying to take the "high ground" by saying what they have is a "one-shot thing"...
by having Ennis ride the ridge like that Lee also puts him "above the tree line" which makes him visible/vulnerable to predators--his secret is out and he will find it harder to hide in the real world now because he has become what his father warned him about being-- a "queeer" like Earl, whether Ennis realizes that or not at that point...

"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - Front-Ranger (Wed Mar 15 2006 06:49:21 )   

zurrafo, good post, but I just wanted to clarify Ennis' quote since it's one of the best in the movie and comes closest of anything Ennis said during Jack's life to pledge his undying love to him. He said:

"For as long as we can ride 'em. There ain't no reins on this one."

Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - amandazehnder (Fri Mar 24 2006 20:53:58 )   

Awesome and amazing thread.

I think that Jack was being flat out honest when he said he wished he knew how to quit Ennis. He's self-aware enough to know that he would never really be able to break it off.

By the way... what exactly do people find so funny about the line "I wish I knew how to quit you"? I truly don't understand why people have picked up on that line as something funny (I mean in pop culture generally these days).

About Ennis finding out from Jack's Dad that Jack had ideas of bringing another man to live with him... In another post, it was eloquently discussed that at that exact moment in conversation, Jack's Mom puts her hand on Ennis's shoulder and invites him to go upstairs to the bedroom. She's wanting/waiting for him to find the shirts. She wants to reassure Ennis (in light of the father's bitter talk) that Ennis was the love of Jack's life.


Re: Jack and Ennis - Lake Scene and a Unique Camera Move   
by - Front-Ranger (Sun Mar 26 2006 12:57:53 )   

I think the people who find that line funny are primarily those who haven't seen the movie.
In the case of Ang Lee, who said it to his Oscar statuette when he was presented with the Best Director Oscar, I think it was an inside "joke." He already knew that BBM wouldn't get the Best Picture, and so he was saying that Oscar had treated him badly, just like Ennis did, but still he was there at the Academy Awards, go figure.
Front-Ranger
"There ain't no reins on this one."

[Front-Ranger]

Ang Lee's 'Antonioni-esque' qualities seemed to me employ effects from Antonioni's earlier work, most noticeably L'Avventura and The Red Desert: the former for the way Lee places actors, building, objects within the frame and the latter for use of pure color symbolism, both with regard to identifying traits of Ennis and Jack and the color contrasts between civilization and nature.

In addition to the Antonioni moments I've indicated in previous posts, I recall the use of the passing train in the the 8th or 9th shot of the film, the camera 'peering' between the cars at Ennis, as a means of showing the passing of time, perhaps framing and defining Ennis as a contemporary, habitual, work-a-day, mechanized individual -- a similar famous train shot is for the same purpose in L'Avventura.

I watched Antonioni's Red Desert this evening and enjoyed seeing what inspired Ang Lee so much. His Blow Up was the first adult movie I ever saw...I was 16 and sneaked in to a showing. Deserto Rosso was a fascinating movie but I had to get up and decorate the tree a bit when the ennui got to be too much for me.