Author Topic: Gender, sexual orientation and power  (Read 13914 times)

Online serious crayons

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Gender, sexual orientation and power
« on: June 09, 2007, 12:23:27 pm »
Hey everybody, this is a new thread created from a conversation that began on the Brokeback Slang thread. It was getting very OT for that thread, yet was so interesting that I created this thread so the discussion could continue.

It's about whether lesbians are more accepted by society than gay men, and if so why, why men throughout history have held more power than women, and other fascinating questions. It starts where the discussion veered off on the other board, with a question about whether the Oscars would ever pick a gay celebrity as host.

Because it was cut out of another thread it begins a little abruptly, but as you read on in the posts you'll get in the swing of it.



« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 05:52:41 pm by ineedcrayons »

Offline Sashca1007

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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2007, 06:42:36 pm »


- I mean, you can't see the Oscars giving the host role to an openly gay person, can you? 

Umm...  can and did!  ;)
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 05:48:44 pm by ineedcrayons »
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Offline brokebackjack

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« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2007, 03:50:15 pm »
Umm...  can and did!  ;)
That's not what  Sheyne  meant, I think<??>

Lesbians are acceptable as hosts, etc.. Gay MALES are not. California will fall into the sea before the studios allow a homo to host the Oscars, the homophobia of execs--quite often Gay EXECS!!!--IS GROTESQUE.

Haven't  :o...and won't, not can and did.
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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2007, 04:23:20 pm »
That's not what  Sheyne  meant, I think<??>

Though Sheyne's comment is dated April 20, 2006, so she may not have known about Ellen at that point, in any case.

Offline brokebackjack

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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2007, 04:54:46 am »
by the way, a person looking over my shoulder asked 'So, Who's the CRAYONBABE??'


lolololol


Just had to share that with you.

It's wierd, ''crayonbabe" [lol, I am dyin here]

Why do you think a lesbian is acceptable but a gay man isn't? It baffles me. Gay is gay, right? Yet they would push a gay woman into the limelight and have a canary at the thought of a gay MAN doing what Ellen did...

any thoughts?
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2007, 12:40:03 pm »
 :laugh: Well, brokebackbabe,  :laugh: actually I'm not sure I agree with your premise.

I guess to the extent that straight people accept lesbians more than they do gay men, it's because according to cultural stereotype lesbians are more "masculine" than straight women and gay men more "feminine," and masculinity is more valued than femininity in this society (and pretty much every other one). So, for example, nobody minds much if a girl is "tomboyish," if she prefers boyish clothes or playing in groups of boys -- often, she's even seen as being cooler or smarter or more skilled than girlish girls. But it's much less acceptable for a boy to be a "sissy," wear effeminate clothes, play with all girls -- that is seen as demeaning and shameful. The same prejudice extends into adulthood. I'm not saying those things are necessarily linked to sexual orientation, but in society's collective mind they are, and therefor the double standard of prejudice.

However, that said, I think the idea that they would allow a lesbian to host the Oscars but they would not allow a gay man to do so is too hypothetical to determine, mainly because there is no male Ellen out there.

First of all, Ellen DeGeneres is one of the most likable people on the face of the earth, so if any gay woman is going to be "accepted," it's her. I bet Rosie O'Donnell, who is way more controversial, would have a tougher time getting the Oscar gig. (Though ... news flash! While writing this, I ran across a story saying Rosie is being considered as a replacement for Bob Barker on The Price is Right!)

But who are the out gay male celebrities? Ian McKellan, Rupert Everett, the guy on "Grey's Anatomy," Rufus Wainwright ... none of them would be likely Oscar hosts in any case. Maybe I'm forgetting someone who would be perfect for the job, but at the moment none comes to mind.

But let's say Jon Stewart suddenly announced that he's gay. Or Steve Carell. Or Conan O'Brien. Likable stars whose income does not depend on playing romantic heterosexual leads -- which I think makes it easier to come out, for either male or female stars -- I can see them being "accepted" by straights, and by Hollywood execs, and even potentially theoretically serving as Oscar host.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 03:55:22 pm by ineedcrayons »

Offline Penthesilea

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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2007, 04:35:23 pm »
:laugh: Well, brokebackbabe,  :laugh: actually I'm not sure I agree with your premise.

I guess to the extent that straight people accept lesbians more than they do gay men, it's because according to cultural stereotype lesbians are more "masculine" than straight women and gay men more "feminine," and masculinity is more valued than femininity in this society (and pretty much every other one).

Oh yes. The male is the "better", worth striving for standard. Women in male domains get usually praise and admiration (e.g. women in car racing or "typical" male professions). Men in "typical" female professions or domains? What do you think a men gets to hear when he loves knitting as a hobby? Or a man who stays at home with the children (and his wife has a paid job)?



Quote
So, for example, nobody minds much if a girl is "tomboyish," if she prefers boyish clothes or playing in groups of boys -- often, she's even seen as being cooler or smarter or more skilled than girlish girls. But it's much less acceptable for a boy to be a "sissy," wear effeminate clothes, play with all girls -- that is seen as demeaning and shameful. The same prejudice extends into adulthood. I'm not saying those things are necessarily linked to sexual orientation, but in society's collective mind they are, and therefor the double standard of prejudice.

Again: oh yes! I have two living examples here in my home: one of my girls is a tomboy. From early age on, she never wanted to wear a dress or skirt, had her hair trimmed down to a a few millimeters, she wanted to have a crane for her birthday, always played with the boys, wore clothes in darker shades, hated pink and shirts with flowers, etc, etc.
And everybody found her cool. The boys liked her because she was "one of them", the girls admired her coolness, the adults said she has guts and assertiveness (which she has). In short: she got only positive reactions.

Now my boy: he's almost four and loves everything pink. He loves to dance (ballett-wise, at least he tries, that's so cute, lol), wants desperately to be a princess or a fairy, wears the dresses of his older sister (not the tomboy, I have another girl) and nail polish, wanted to have a fairy costume for Christmas (and got it), plays mostly with girls, and so on.
Do people think he's cool? No. And what does he get? Admiration? Praise? Rarely. Well, at least he doesn't get any rebuff either. But there have occasionally been people who ask me if I'm not worried about him. No. I'm not. Why should I? But never had anybody asked me if I'm worried about my tomboy girl.


Look at the job world. Which jobs are better paid? Typical female jobs, like medical secretary - or tapical male jobs like a car mechanic? Look at successful female managers, or our German Bundeskanzlerin: her fav clothing is a suit for females (trouser-suit?; not sure about the translation). Ever seen any male top-manager in a dress?
The male is the standard. A woman behaving manly "upgrades" herself, a man behaving womanly "downgrades" hisself.

Another reason for wider acceptance of lesbians than gay men is a historic one: for hundreds, almost thousands of years, it was common sense that women don't have any sexuality at all. So when they're not sexual beings, they can't be homosexual.

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« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2007, 06:45:27 pm »
Right. And when people say a woman has some masculine characteristic, it's usually a compliment -- she's as tough as a man, as brave as a man, knows sports/cars/carpentry as well as a man, etc. And when people say a man has some feminine characteristic, it's almost NEVER a compliment. In the first place, the comparative characteristic would probably be negative: a man is compared to a woman if he cries or gossips or screams at something trivial or can't throw a ball right or do some other typical male skill. But even if the characteristic in itself is positive, it's STILL often said in a backhanded way. Describing a man is as "sensitive as a woman" might not be considered flattering.

Still another possible reason for wider acceptance of lesbians that I was going to mention is that it's more acceptable in this society for women to express physical affection or closeness -- hugging, kissing, going to the restroom together, sleeping in the same bed. But I left that out earlier because I'm not sure which is the chicken and which is the egg: is lesbianism less threatening because closeness among women is more accepted, or is closeness among women more accepted because lesbianism is less threatening?  ??? :-\

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2007, 07:04:27 pm »
However, that said, I think the idea that they would allow a lesbian to host the Oscars but they would not allow a gay man to do so is too hypothetical to determine, mainly because there is no male Ellen out there.

First of all, Ellen DeGeneres is one of the most likable people on the face of the earth, so if any gay woman is going to be "accepted," it's her. I bet Rosie O'Donnell, who is way more controversial, would have a tougher time getting the Oscar gig. (Though ... news flash! While writing this, I ran across a story saying Rosie is being considered as a replacement for Bob Barker on The Price is Right!)

But who are the out gay male celebrities? Ian McKellan, Rupert Everett, the guy on "Grey's Anatomy," Rufus Wainwright ... none of them would be likely Oscar hosts in any case. Maybe I'm forgetting someone who would be perfect for the job, but at the moment none comes to mind.

But let's say Jon Stewart suddenly announced that he's gay. Or Steve Carell. Or Conan O'Brien. Likable stars whose income does not depend on playing romantic heterosexual leads -- which I think makes it easier to come out, for either male or female stars -- I can see them being "accepted" by straights, and by Hollywood execs, and even potentially theoretically serving as Oscar host.

Except that, unfortunately, he doesn't really have the celebrity for the job of Oscar host, Ted the wine and food guy from Queer Eye for the Straight Guy came immediately to my mind when I read that phrase, "male Ellen." Very likeable and personable and completely nonthreatening.

Been a long time since I saw that show. What is his last name, anyway?  ???
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Offline ifyoucantfixit

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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2007, 07:07:28 pm »



         Well stated ladies.  I wonder if the same is true of gay men.  Do they think women also are
less than men?  Or is that just a trait of the heterosexual male.. He just thinks as societal teaching
has made him believe.  The male sexual prowess makes him better than all others, along of course
with his supposed stronger physique.??  Giving way to the natural feelings of dominance, and superiority.? 



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« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2007, 07:21:10 pm »
Well stated ladies.  I wonder if the same is true of gay men.  Do they think women also are
less than men?

Good question! Maybe we should just ask them directly. OK let's hear it, all you gay men out there: Who considers women to be inferior to men?

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Kidding.

Quote
Or is that just a trait of the heterosexual male.. He just thinks as societal teaching
has made him believe.  The male sexual prowess makes him better than all others, along of course
with his supposed stronger physique.??  Giving way to the natural feelings of dominance, and superiority.?

That's another interesting question. How did men get so dominant and sexist in the first place? Is it because they're physically stronger? Or is it because killing animals and fighting wars (while women took care of children) made aggressiveness and power-grabbing evolutionarily adaptive traits?

I guess we're getting a little off the topic of Brokeback Slang. I'd be happy to start a whole thread on questions like these -- which I find fascinating -- if there are people interested in discussing them.


« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 07:30:06 pm by ineedcrayons »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2007, 09:17:58 pm »
         Well stated ladies.  I wonder if the same is true of gay men.  Do they think women also are
less than men?  Or is that just a trait of the heterosexual male. 

Good question! Maybe we should just ask them directly. OK let's hear it, all you gay men out there: Who considers women to be inferior to men?

Nobody adores women like the men who aren't interested in having sex with them.  ;D
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Offline ifyoucantfixit

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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2007, 11:00:17 pm »


        Awww Jeff we can always depend on you to be the sweetie that you really are...



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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2007, 11:01:57 pm »
Nobody adores women like the men who aren't interested in having sex with them.  ;D

Perfect answer, Little Darlin'!  :)


Offline Kelda

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« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2007, 04:49:00 am »
Except that, unfortunately, he doesn't really have the celebrity for the job of Oscar host, Ted the wine and food guy from Queer Eye for the Straight Guy came immediately to my mind when I read that phrase, "male Ellen." Very likeable and personable and completely nonthreatening.

Been a long time since I saw that show. What is his last name, anyway?  ???

is Ted Allen the one that ome of us think looks like DavidinHartford?
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Offline Clyde-B

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« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2007, 11:55:10 am »
Good question! Maybe we should just ask them directly. OK let's hear it, all you gay men out there: Who considers women to be inferior to men?

 

Not in some of the bars I've been in!   ;D



 How did men get so dominant and sexist in the first place?


The lust for power.  Don't you want to have control of the situation? 

In the past physical strength (seen as a masculine trait) was very much a part of that.

Feminine is seen as weaker and less desirable in that context.  (This is not my personal view, don't be coming after me with no shotgun now!)

That's why lesbian (more like men) women are seen as more desirable and homosexual (less like men) men less desirable.

This selfish lust for power is being replaced in some quarters by the realization that everybody working together for our mutual benefit yields more economical, longer lasting results. 

The selfishness partly depends on whether you world view is "There's not enough to go around" or whether it's "Together we can make enough for everybody."

I guess my short version is it's a racket perpetrated by the "might makes right" crowd.

The ironic part of course is "It's the hand that rocks the cradle that rules the world."  So where are these men getting all these ideas from?
 

Offline Meryl

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« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2007, 01:09:06 pm »
How did men get so dominant and sexist in the first place? Is it because they're physically stronger? Or is it because killing animals and fighting wars (while women took care of children) made aggressiveness and power-grabbing evolutionarily adaptive traits?

In cases of war, power-grabbing, ridiculously dangerous sports and aggression in general, I've come to think of men as the "testosterone-impaired."  Or perhaps "hormonally challenged" would be more p.c. today.  ;D

Yes, testosterone has brought us good things like survival of the fittest, inventions, great art and landing on the moon, but when put up against millions upon millions of war dead, genocide and power grabs over the millenia, I see it as a very mixed blessing.  :(
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Offline Clyde-B

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« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2007, 01:37:00 pm »
In cases of war, power-grabbing, ridiculously dangerous sports and aggression in general, I've come to think of men as the "testosterone-impaired."  Or perhaps "hormonally challenged" would be more p.c. today.  ;D

Yes, testosterone has brought us good things like survival of the fittest, inventions, great art and landing on the moon, but when put up against millions upon millions of war dead, genocide and power grabs over the millenia, I see it as a very mixed blessing.  :(

Testosterone impaired!!!!!    :laugh:

Now come on, we all have our hormonal crosses to bear!

I think part of our task is to figure out what works best in spite of our biological difficulties.

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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2007, 01:48:51 pm »
Yes, testosterone has brought us good things like survival of the fittest, inventions, great art and landing on the moon, but when put up against millions upon millions of war dead, genocide and power grabs over the millenia, I see it as a very mixed blessing.  :(

And even those good accomplishments are questionable. Women have made great art, for example, and would have made still more. But sexist societies have a) kept them too busy with housework and child care to have time for art b) actively prevented them from making art c) suppressed what art they did make d) sometimes even forced them to credit males for the art they'd made.

So what men and women can accomplish or have accomplished should be seen in the context of what each has been allowed to do.

The ironic part of course is "It's the hand that rocks the cradle that rules the world."  So where are these men getting all these ideas from?

From women, in many cases. Women have absorbed society's sexist messages, too. For example, many Afghani women are pleased to don a burkha and accept other restrictions. Many American women refuse to consider themselves feminists.

Clyde, nice to see you joining us!  :)

Meryl, do you think we should start a new thread? I'd love to continue this discussion, but I don't want to keep people from posting actual Brokeback slang, and I want to make sure all of those who'd like to participate in a discussion of sex, sexuality and power know that it's going on.


Offline Clyde-B

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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2007, 02:03:23 pm »
And even those good accomplishments are questionable. Women have made great art, for example, and would have made still more. But sexist societies have a) kept them too busy with housework and child care to have time for art b) actively prevented them from making art c) suppressed what art they did make d) sometimes even forced them to credit males for the art they'd made.

So what men and women can accomplish or have accomplished should be seen in the context of what each has been allowed to do.

From women, in many cases. Women have absorbed society's sexist messages, too. For example, many Afghani women are pleased to don a burkha and accept other restrictions. Many American women refuse to consider themselves feminists.

Clyde, nice to see you joining us!  :)

Meryl, do you think we should start a new thread? I'd love to continue this discussion, but I don't want to keep people from posting actual Brokeback slang, and I want to make sure all of those who'd like to participate in a discussion of sex, sexuality and power know that it's going on.



Well, thank you for inviting me, latjoreme.

This verbal denigration of groups or individuals in order to hold on to power is quite common.  If you can get the people in the group you're trying to control to buy into the idea that you are superior to them, then you've got it made.  Women, gays and other minorities have been fed a steady line of this BS for how many years?

We are like Ennis, we must stop believing it as truth and start seeing it as propaganda and what it's purpose is.  Believing it is to enlist us against ourselves.

Offline Ellemeno

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« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2007, 07:55:59 pm »
Chrissi, you sound like a wonderful mother.

Offline loneleeb3

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« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2007, 08:04:29 pm »
AS I have been reading some of these posts I think the main reason Lesbians are more accepted than gay males has been over looked. (if i didn't see this point and it was raised my apologies. I didn't read every post at length.)
I think it is because straight men find the situation of two women having sex incredibly hot!
That is the main reason it is accepted. Lets face it, for the most part this is a society dominated by straight males.I'm not trying to be sexist, i'm just statingthe facts as i see them.
If straight males were as disgusted by lesbians as they are by gay males Ellen wouldn't have a show much less be on the oscars. Ok, yes we have Rosie that most straight men hate but I think that goes to show there is an exception to every rule.
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Offline delalluvia

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« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2007, 09:20:40 pm »
Ladies/women/tomgirls of all ages  ;D

You've said it much better than I could have and I agree completely with your reasoning, this included:

And even those good accomplishments are questionable. Women have made great art, for example, and would have made still more. But sexist societies have a) kept them too busy with housework and child care to have time for art b) actively prevented them from making art c) suppressed what art they did make d) sometimes even forced them to credit males for the art they'd made.

Exactly.  How many famous men with great feats under their belts would have been able to explore/create/invent as they did had they been stuck with the childcare and domestic duties?  SOMEone was doing that for them - the women in their lives - and in turn sacrificed their chance at accomplishing more than just being a great washerwoman.  In the U.S. until the 20th century I believe, it was illegal for women to hold patents.  So all you see in the history of the US is men holding patents, men being the inventors.  Who knows how many of those men who hold patents, did so at the behest of their womenfolk because they themselves could not?

Quote
So what men and women can accomplish or have accomplished should be seen in the context of what each has been allowed to do.

In more and more animal studies of primates, it's seen that the usual inventors in simian societies are the young females.  They invent things and different ways of doing things.  The next to adapt to new ways are the mothers of the societies who then teach their youngsters.

The last and most conservative bunch to pick up new things and adapt to them after everyone else has?  The adult males of the society.

Makes me and anthropolgists and primatologists wonder if in early human societies, it was no different. 

Quote
From women, in many cases. Women have absorbed society's sexist messages, too. For example, many Afghani women are pleased to don a burkha and accept other restrictions. Many American women refuse to consider themselves feminists.

And the major reason for this is societies have developed that have no room for women who buck the system.  There is no culture of single women in poor Muslim countries/societies.  Women live with their families until they marry, then they live with their husband's family.  There is no cultural phase girls go through when they become women to spread their wings, fly and become independent members of society.  They're not supposed to be independent or free-thinking.  They're always to be under the control of some man.  And if they choose not to be?  You've heard the horror stories of what happens to such women.  At the very least, they will be threatened with the loss of their family's status, love and protection.  Where can they go?  In freer societies, a woman can, with regret, shrug and go make her life elsewhere, these women have no place to go.  Such societies are very controlling this way.

Nowadays, with secular law enforcement just starting to come down hard on those who commit 'honor killings' what is happening now, is if teenage girls start to buck their family's traditions, they start getting extreme harrassment from their families, ostracism, threats, until these poor girls - already hormonally on edge with puberty -  commit suicide.  And that solves everything.  The family 'honor' is protected and the family members are 'innocent' of any crime. 

Makes me sick. 

Is it any wonder women are quick to scamper under the bourka and hide?  Better to be a live dog than a dead lion.

and I agree with loneleeb's statement:

Quote
I think it is because straight men find the situation of two women having sex incredibly hot!
That is the main reason it is accepted. Lets face it, for the most part this is a society dominated by straight males.I'm not trying to be sexist, i'm just statingthe facts as i see them.

Straight men I know find lesbianism fascinating and titillating and don't think women are really lesbians.  They just haven't had a good enough fuck yet from a man.  Once they do, of course, they'll be 'turned around'.  ::) ::)
Yes, several men have told me this and one says this is one of his cherished goals in life.

Of course, they actually mean lipstick lesbians, not the Rosie O'Donnell type lesbians. 

Some straight men can be so deluded.  :P
« Last Edit: June 23, 2007, 09:27:05 pm by delalluvia »

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« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2007, 10:26:43 pm »
they start getting extreme harrassment from their families, ostracism, threats, until these poor girls - already hormonally on edge with puberty -  commit suicide. ... Makes me sick.

You and me both, Sista.  :P

Quote
  In freer societies, a woman can, with regret, shrug and go make her life elsewhere

What's weird is that even Western women are not as free as we like to think. Women in this country, for example, theoretically have choices and freedom and legal protection. And those who are determined usually can exercise them. But there is STILL a lot of pressure on women to take on traditional domestic roles, and even educated, successful, ambitious feminists feel it -- particularly if they have children.

Somehow, it's still mostly women who abandon careers to stay home with the kids, effectively supporting their husband's advancing careers with their own unpaid labor. And even women who continue in their careers after having children, surveys indicate, still wind up doing the lion's share of domestic work.

BTW, none of the above should be taken as judgment or criticism of anyone's particular choices. I myself quit a full-time job to work part-time and stay with my kids. I have advanced in my career but made very little money. So I can see things from both sides. I know there are a lot of reasons to stay home with children, many of them personal and wonderful. But I also know that social pressures are among those reasons, including media images of idealized mothers and workplace limitations, that make work/family balance really difficult.

Sorry to ramble on, but that's one of my favorite soap boxes. I should add -- because I sometimes hear this accusation -- that I am in no way comparing the problems of women in industrialized countries with the truly horrific plight of women in traditionalist societies. (In something I read today, a writer expressed gratitude for not living in a time where she had to stay with her husband even if he broke her jaw -- undoubtedly that time is NOW for many, many women in the world.) My point is only that the problems here aren't quite as solved as people sometimes like to think. One writer called it the "half-changed world."

Quote
Straight men I know find lesbianism fascinating and titillating and don't think women are really lesbians.  They just haven't had a good enough fuck yet from a man.  Once they do, of course, they'll be 'turned around'.  ::) ::)
Yes, several men have told me this and one says this is one of his cherished goals in life.

Of course, they actually mean lipstick lesbians, not the Rosie O'Donnell type lesbians. 

Well put, Del! I bet that's why those men find it particularly titillating to watch women together who actually AREN'T lesbians.



Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Gender, sexual orientation and power
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2007, 01:03:15 am »
Katherine,

So do you want things to stay the same or change?

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Sex, sexuality and power
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2007, 01:05:08 am »
What's weird is that even Western women are not as free as we like to think. Women in this country, for example, theoretically have choices and freedom and legal protection. And those who are determined usually can exercise them. But there is STILL a lot of pressure on women to take on traditional domestic roles, and even educated, successful, ambitious feminists feel it -- particularly if they have children.

Somehow, it's still mostly women who abandon careers to stay home with the kids, effectively supporting their husband's advancing careers with their own unpaid labor. And even women who continue in their careers after having children, surveys indicate, still wind up doing the lion's share of domestic work.

Exactly right.  Women are free-er, but not completely so.  Want a great example?  Try Hillary Rodham.  Graduated top of her law school class - ahead of her husband to be - was a successful lawyer, made more money than her husband, but when he ran for president of the U.S., she actually had to take his name and tell the world that no, no, she really did like to bake cookies.   :P

So much for women's freedom in the States.

For a more personal POV?  My fiance was all for my working, all for my higher education, until he heard I was going to keep my maiden name when we got married.

He hit the roof.

He didn't even want me to hyphenate my name.  It was his name or nothing.  I chose nothing.  We didn't get married.

I started asking that question of many men and I found very very few men who want their wives to keep their own names.  They always use children as the excuse, but I counter that since women bear the children, 85 times out of 100 she does all the early childcare and rearing, that perhaps it would be easier for the husband to take the wife's name!

They never think this is logical or a good idea.

So their reasoning has nothing to do with logic and everything to do with the idea of title and ownership and leadership.

One of my fundamentalist conservative friends said that it was the man's responsibility to protect, instruct and shepherd his family down the 'right' path.  I suggested that perhaps the wives might prefer a partner in their marriage and not a shepherd.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2007, 10:58:30 am by delalluvia »

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Sex, sexuality and power
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2007, 01:45:30 am »

So their reasoning has nothing to do with logic and everything to do with the idea of title and ownership and leadership.
 
 
Yes!
In order to start controlling what is going on, it's necessary to understand what is really going on.
And power and control is what it's all about.

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Gender, sexual orientation and power
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2007, 02:57:58 am »
 

And power and control is what it's all about.


But what about the hokey pokey?  ???

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Gender, sexual orientation and power
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2007, 03:33:52 am »

But what about the hokey pokey?  ???

Well of course that too!!!   :laugh:

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Gender, sexual orientation and power
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2007, 07:47:40 am »

But what about the hokey pokey?  ???
You so silly! :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Gender, sexual orientation and power
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2007, 09:47:07 am »
You so silly! :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:


Gotta be, or the depressing realities of this thread would sink me so low I'd give up.

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Gender, sexual orientation and power
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2007, 10:14:57 am »

Gotta be, or the depressing realities of this thread would sink me so low I'd give up.

No No No !!!!

The point of this thread should be learning how to define yourself and not let other people define you!

(and gay people have a lot to teach here!)

We can just kvetch and bitch, but that won't change anything.

Of course a good laugh now and then won't hurt either.   ;D

Online serious crayons

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Re: Gender, sexual orientation and power
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2007, 11:36:41 am »
I agree, Clyde. I think you have to face the problems before you can fix them.

And you're right -- gay people are good role models for learning to be true to yourself.  :)

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Gender, sexual orientation and power
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2007, 12:48:18 pm »
I agree, Clyde. I think you have to face the problems before you can fix them.

And you're right -- gay people are good role models for learning to be true to yourself.  :)


One of the things I discovered was that I was giving up control of defining myself to other people.  I was actually letting them define me for me.  It's very subtle and I think a lot of people that are faced with this problem less severely than gays aren't even aware of how it's being done to them, how they are doing it to themselves, and what to do about it.

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Re: Sex, sexuality and power
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2007, 01:20:01 pm »
Nobody adores women like the men who aren't interested in having sex with them.  ;D
This is so true! Certainly in the realm of arts and entertainment, you would be hard pressed to find more devoted fans of a woman performer than her gay male followers.

A lot of people have this misconception that gay men have no interest or admiration for women, and this is very far from the case. Women just (generally) don't have that erotic allure for most of us that men do.

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Re: Gender, sexual orientation and power
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2007, 02:44:36 pm »
One of the things I discovered was that I was giving up control of defining myself to other people.  I was actually letting them define me for me.  It's very subtle and I think a lot of people that are faced with this problem less severely than gays aren't even aware of how it's being done to them, how they are doing it to themselves, and what to do about it.

I think you're right, Clyde. Gay people have to confront it much more directly, while others are able to ignore or deny it. I know I do that, to some extent.  :-\



Offline delalluvia

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Re: Sex, sexuality and power
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2007, 07:24:01 pm »
This is so true! Certainly in the realm of arts and entertainment, you would be hard pressed to find more devoted fans of a woman performer than her gay male followers.

A lot of people have this misconception that gay men have no interest or admiration for women, and this is very far from the case. Women just (generally) don't have that erotic allure for most of us that men do.

I dunno.  I've been around gay men who were very hostile toward women and groups of women.  They turn away and tune us out when socializing.  Not everyone of course, I'm just saying I've had that experience.

I was one of two women in the audience at the freebie sneak-peek of BBM in a sea of gay men.  I was a little dismayed at the laughter I finally deemed inappropriate that went on and on and on during the scene where Alma sees Ennis and Jack kissing.  Yes, I understand surprise/relief/shocked laughter.  This laughing went on waaaaaaaaaaay too long, IMO and seemed a bit mean-spiritied, especially when you see Alma's character in pain on the screen.

It wasn't funny at that point.

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Gender, sexual orientation and power
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2007, 12:16:26 am »
I think you're right, Clyde. Gay people have to confront it much more directly, while others are able to ignore or deny it. I know I do that, to some extent.  :-\


The first problem to confront is the idea of waiting around for things to change.  Waiting for rights to be granted.  Waiting for things to get better.

As long as the powers that be can convince you to wait until they improve things, got any guesses what will happen?