Author Topic: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind  (Read 89522 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

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I can't resist.  I feel that BetterMost needs and deserves its very own version of a "Jack and the Wind" thread (especially since this topic has been sneaking into other threads a lot lately).  I would love to respark more discussion about this.  Those of you who know me, know how much I love this topic.

One of the most beautiful (and to me one of the most romantic) metaphors that has come out of discussions of symbolic aspects of BBM is the idea that Jack comes to be represented by the wind or, that his nature symbol is the wind/ air.  This parallels Ennis's nature symbol which many see as earth (or sometimes fire)- topics for another thread perhaps.  Thinking about these symbols seems particularly important in relation to the film's official tag line, "love is a force of nature."

The clearest moment in the film that nearly spells out the idea that Jack= Wind is in Aguirre's trailer when Jack returns to see if Aguirre has a third summer of work for him (and is really there to see if Ennis has been around).  As Jack steps into the trailer, the vent above Aguirre's desk starts to spin (it had been still up to the moment Jack enters) and Aguirre says "well, look what the wind blew in".   Electic fans and vents also seem to be evocative of Jack and the wind, especially in Ennis's trailer at the end.

There are all sorts of moments throughout the film where Jack seems to be evoked by the visual or audio presence of the wind.  The wind often seems to be brought in as an element in the film to signify that Ennis is thinking about Jack.

Here are two of the most important aspects of the wind to me. 

The first moment is directly following the first tent scene.  As Ennis mounts his horse and rides away, we see Jack watch him disappear into the distance.  Just at this moment the wind kicks up rather dramatically.  It's as if the wind is coming from Jack or Jack's gaze and follows Ennis up the mountain.  The wind blows strongly against Ennis and his horse as if Jack is tormenting him or overwhelming him.  We know that Ennis is consumed by thinking about Jack and what the two of them have done.  It's at this moment that Jack takes on slightly, oh so subtle, magical quality.  And this makes sense, Jack is the *beloved* to the protagonist Ennis in this story. So Jack through Ennis's eyes would be seen as this particularly special figure who has a lot of power over him.  Jack from this point on haunts Ennis's thoughts (especially in his daily life in Riverton, through the wind and through the constant presence of men with black hats).

The second most moving aspect of the wind idea, for me,  comes following Jack's death.  The symbol of the wind allows Jack to persist as an extremely subtle ghostly presence after he dies.  The wind rustling in the grass at the very end seems to me to be Jack acknowledging Ennis's "I swear..."  To me the best example of the air symbol is in the Lightning Flat scene when Ennis is in Jack's bedroom.  It's only after Ennis opens the window to allow the air into the stagnant room that he notices the closet.  There is no real noticeable wind here (the curtains don't flutter for example).  But, the air seems to signify that Jack has been given entry into the scene.  When Ennis is in the closet and discovers the two shirts, it's slightly spooky to notice that the sleeves of the coats in the closet continue to sway after Ennis had fondled them (as if Ennis is being proded by the motion of Jack's old clothes to find those coupled shirts).

It's interesting that the wind idea seems much more subtle in the film than in the book.  Proulx hits the reader over the head with it.  From the first paragraph:

"Ennis Del Mar wakes before five, wind rocking the trailer, hissing in around the aluminum door and window frames.  The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft.... He... pulls on his shirt and jeans, his worn boots, stamping the heels against the floor to get them full on.  The wind booms down the curved length of the trailer and under it's roaring passage he can hear the scratching of fine gravel and sand.  It could be bad on the highway with the horse trailer. He has to be packed and away from the place that morning.  Again the ranch is on the market... He might have to stay with his married daughter until he picks up another job, yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream... [He] lets a panel of the dream slide forward.  If he does not focus his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong.  The wind strkies the trailer like a load of dirt coming off a dump truck, eases, dies, leaves a temporary silence."
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 12:06:46 am by atz75 »
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2006, 12:59:29 am »
My two favorite Jack-as-wind moments are:

When Ennis and Alma are sitting on the bed, and he's longing for Jack, and just after Alma says "not all lonely like you was raised" we hear the whooooooo of wind outside.

When Ennis is wretching in the alley, the little tree visible between the buildings is practically being blown over by wind. In fact, I suddenly realize, the posture of the tree echoes Ennis'.

Was there wind blowing in the tar-spreading scene? Because that's one of my favorite "Ennis thinking about Jack during their four-year separation" moments.




Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2006, 09:33:06 am »
I can't wrap my brain around this whole topic just yet, so I just wanted to comment on the "control the weather" part. Aguirre (society) not only held Jack responsible for the weather but also intimated that he could cure pneumonia too. This presents parallels to the life of Jesus, who was predicted to be a messiah who would come and literally save the Jews from their persecutors. In actuality, Jesus had a more abstract mission to save humans through love. I don't want to dwell too much on the Christianity aspects but sometimes they are too strong to ignore.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2006, 10:21:55 am »
I can't wrap my brain around this whole topic just yet, so I just wanted to comment on the "control the weather" part. Aguirre (society) not only held Jack responsible for the weather but also intimated that he could cure pneumonia too. This presents parallels to the life of Jesus, who was predicted to be a messiah who would come and literally save the Jews from their persecutors. In actuality, Jesus had a more abstract mission to save humans through love. I don't want to dwell too much on the Christianity aspects but sometimes they are too strong to ignore.

Very nice observations Front-Ranger.  I quite like the pneumonia idea.  Yes, he seems to expect the impossible out of Jack.

Sure, the religious imagery is all over the place.  The film begins with the image of three crosses silhouetted against the sky (the electric wire poles) and sure, the water-walking Jesus connection with Jack is very strong.  I think Casey and others back on the old board used to discuss the connection between the hymn and the image that we see of Jack near the beginning when they're first ascending Brokeback.  We see Jack walking through the water of a shallow creek carrying a lamb and he's gesturing to Ennis to follow him.  Also, during the "prayer of thanks" discussion Jack is clearly framed by the image of the rushing water.  And, in a way, Jack "saves" Ennis emotionally, etc.... especially in the end with those shirts. 

I'm not even slightly religious myself, but I find all of this extremely interesting and poignant.

cheers!
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2006, 10:39:01 am »
I love the Jack as wind and Jack as Christ references, too.  As I said on another thread, the wind symbolism became so powerful to me during the period immediately following my seeing of this movie twice in succession in February (I took a month off from seeing it, then - the second time had rocked me to the core and I couldn't bear going through that grief again at that time), that I believed Jack and therefore his ghost was real and that he was manifesting himself in the howling wind around me at that time.  (Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you... still do...).  On a somewhat side note, the wind here in South Florida has been relentless for three months.  Everyone I talk to says just about every day, "Geez.  Can you believe this wind?"  Always makes me smile and think "He lives" to myself.  But seriously, it is unprecedented and I think gives us all a feeling of impending doom considering last year's hurricane season and the prediction that this one would be as bad or worse.

Back to the subject at hand - I of course also love the scene with Ennis whittling the lamb, and the wind and rain raging outside as he does it.  To me, this mixes all the symbolism together - Jack is the lamb, but he is also the wind and the rain - it represents the storm of passion swirling in Ennis' heart as his love for Jack grows but he isn't in touch with the fact that that's what he's feeling.

And Amanda - I love all the references you've mentioned - I never thought about that wind kicking up behind Ennis and Cigar Butt on the mountain that morning as being Jack following him, nor as the wind in the grass at the end being Jack acknowledging Ennis' "I swear."  I had thought about the others you and others here have mentioned.

God, I love this movie.  Here I thought I wasn't gonna watch it again for a while, but I just might have to tonight and look specifically for all those references.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 10:40:32 am by ednbarby »
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2006, 11:00:00 am »
Thanks for your comments ednbarby,

I know what you mean about reacting to the wind, etc. in real life sort of differently after thinking about his movie so much.  Things like pick-up trucks have entirely new meanings to me these days... things I've very rarely thought about much in the past.

Anyway, that strong wind following the first tent scene seems particularly important.  In this case the wind seems to actually be emanating from Jack.  I mean, I know it's not.  But, it feels like it comes right from him as he watches Ennis leave.

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2006, 11:49:13 am »
Lots of good observations.

Ednbarby, I think of Ennis as carving a horse in that scene, but either way your interpretation of it is interesting! I had always wondered a bit about its significance and I think you have it exactly right.

I missed the imdb religious thread, or maybe I skipped it out of skepticism, but now I'm sorry I did. Those images sound very meaningful and undeniably deliberate.

Slightly OT, but speaking of the scene of Aguirre telling Jack about his uncle. I've always found that scene a bit mysterious -- why bother putting in all the stuff about the uncle? why not just have Aguirre stopping by for a routine check? -- but just over the past 12 hours I have learned two things about it. One, and I can't remember where I saw this last night (for all I know it was back a ways on this thread!), was that Jack felt threatened when he saw Aguirre looking at Ennis through the binocs -- not so much because he felt protective of Ennis just then, which is the way I'd always looked at it, but because he realizes that Aguirre could have been watching them through the binocs at any time. Well, duh! Now it seems obvious. But somehow that had never occurred to me.

And the other sprang from reading the post above about its being Jesus allusion. Aguirre's line, "not much you can do about it down there, either, not unless you can cure pneumonia" can also be interpreted as a foreshadowing reference to Jack's inability to do anything "down there" in society (or down there on earth if you take the Jesus perspective), about Ennis and the way his life winds up going -- not unless he can cure, well, homophobia.

Another reminder that if a scene doesn't quite make sense, or if there's something going on that seems a bit unnecessary, there's probably a good reason.


Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2006, 12:51:25 pm »
Slightly OT, but speaking of the scene of Aguirre telling Jack about his uncle. I've always found that scene a bit mysterious -- why bother putting in all the stuff about the uncle? why not just have Aguirre stopping by for a routine check? -- but just over the past 12 hours I have learned two things about it. One, and I can't remember where I saw this last night (for all I know it was back a ways on this thread!), was that Jack felt threatened when he saw Aguirre looking at Ennis through the binocs -- not so much because he felt protective of Ennis just then, which is the way I'd always looked at it, but because he realizes that Aguirre could have been watching them through the binocs at any time. Well, duh! Now it seems obvious. But somehow that had never occurred to me.

And the other sprang from reading the post above about its being Jesus allusion. Aguirre's line, "not much you can do about it down there, either, not unless you can cure pneumonia" can also be interpreted as a foreshadowing reference to Jack's inability to do anything "down there" in society (or down there on earth if you take the Jesus perspective), about Ennis and the way his life winds up going -- not unless he can cure, well, homophobia.

Heya,
I'm glad you brought up the topic of the scene where Aguirre comes to tell Jack about his uncle.  It is confusing when you first think about it.  I think your explanation of Jack's realization that the binoculars are a threat is a good one.  It reminds me of the placement of those binoculars in Aguirre's trailer at the very beginning and then in the "look what the wind blew in" scene.  In the beginning the binoculars are in their case hanging behind Aguirre as he's explaining the tender/herder jobs (in fact we don't know they're binoculars until later).  Then, in the scene where Jack comes back for a job alone the next summer we see those binoculars hanging outside their case... still positioned behind Aguirre's head.

It seems important that it's only Jack who knows about the binoculars and is the only one to have to deal with the "stemming the rose" comment.  If Ennis knew about either of those two things... it's hard to imagine how he'd react.  Jack can handle all of this for some reason, while Ennis's insecurities would run wild with the knowledge of either of these things.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2006, 12:57:09 pm »
True -- if Jack had told Ennis about the stemming-the-rose remark on the night of the reunion, Ennis would have had to run out and try to beat someone up, and perhaps get beat up himself. And that would have put a damper on the evening.

Seriously, though, it's touching the way Jack protects Ennis from stuff like that. And I think the difference is a real key to Jack's character. Unlike Ennis, he is able to let people's disapproval roll off of him -- he might be bothered by it, but not demoralized -- which makes him better equipped to challenge society's prejudices.


Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2006, 01:06:27 pm »
True -- if Jack had told Ennis about the stemming-the-rose remark on the night of the reunion, Ennis would have had to run out and try to beat someone up, and perhaps get beat up himself. And that would have put a damper on the evening.

LOL  :laugh: :laugh:
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2006, 08:26:39 pm »
Ummm, I think in BBM, the wind is blowing because in Wyoming the wind is always blowing.

IMO some things were done for the ambiance and reality of their locales.

I never did buy the Christ-analogy of Jack thing.

He has very little in common with Jesus.

Jack wades through water with a sheep - he doesn't 'walk on water', yes he is a shepherd, but he also wants to shoot and eat the sheep.  Hardly a 'good shepherd'.

Lee is Buddhist, IMO he imbued his movie more with eastern religious imagery than western.

Aguirre never said or implied Jack could cure pneumonia, Jack just said he couldn't do anything about it and Aguirre agreed. [shrug].

« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 08:28:56 pm by delalluvia »

Offline EnnisLovesJack

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2006, 08:56:02 pm »
Hey atz!

The second time my sister saw the movie, she thought Jack says "The sheep got all over my ass, like I'm supposed to control the weather!" I couldn't stop laughing.

Especially 'cause she didn't believe me that it's "Aguirre got all over my ass..." till her third  viewing. She thought the sheep were afraid 'cause of the lightning, and literally piled up around/on top of Jack, like kids crawling into their parents' bed after a bad dream.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 04:06:53 pm by EnnisLovesJack »
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2006, 09:09:03 pm »
Especially 'cause she didn't believe me that it's "Aguirre got all over my ass..." till her third  viewing. She thought the sheep were afraid 'cause of the lightning, and literally piled up around/on top of Jack, like kids crawling into their parents' bed after a bad dream.

That's too funny!  You can just see it can't you?  Jack standing there with a confused expression (a little like in the "the hell they are" scene) and there are scores of sheep all around him, clamering to get up into his protective arms.  Oh wait, that's me projecting again... ;)
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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2006, 10:27:04 pm »
Jesus only walked on water one time during a storm and the disciples were already in a ship out on the sea when he did that.

In the Bible, wind and spirit are the very same words in the original languages.

I don't see so much "religion" in the move as much as I see spirituality. Religion is what one does by living by a set of man-made rules. Spiritually has to do with one's relationship with one's higher power, no matter what religious persuasion, his relationship with others, his environment and how he feels about himself.

In the published in book form original story, there is only one paragraph with any connection with religion.

But, in my "Christian" mystic way of thinking at times, I do see that there is lots of spiritual undertones in the movie. I did some study of the Spanish mystic, Santa Teresa of Avila, and in some of her writings and what was written about her, I just believe that she was somewhat Pentecostal by experience. I was a Spanish major in college in the early 1960s and I read what she wrote in Spanish. I had a therapist who had been a former nun (although I did not know it until someone else told me first) and I talked to her about thinking of Teresa with my own meditation experiences.

The Annie Proulx "Water-Walking Jesus" was developed into an on-screen discussion about going to hell because of the fact that it was called a sad hymn and Jack sang it like a funerary song which one might sing on Good Friday.

Offline nakymaton

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2006, 10:41:44 pm »
She thought the sheep were afraid 'cause of the lightning, and literally piled up around/on top of Jack, like kids crawling into their parents' bed after a bad dream.

I love this image. :D
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2006, 11:17:49 pm »
Heya Friends,

:laugh: I quite enjoy the idea of the sheep crawling all over Jack too.

Anyway... TJ, I don't think there's "religion" in the movie in any conventional sense either... I do think the filmmakers play with the symbolism of religion a lot though.  To me the symbols are more allegorical or poetic than anything else.  And, as I said before, I'm not at all religious myself, but I still found some of the religious symbolism used in the film quite poignant.  This topic probably deserves its own thread or two.

But, I'd rather talk about the wind.  :D  Hey, so I re-watched the divorce scene again tonight and noticed a new wind symbol.  Above Ennis sad little shack he has a windmill! But, the whole time we see it the windmill is completely still.  It reminds me of that huge, still fan that sits right next to Alma Jr. in the last scene when she's talking to Ennis about the wedding.

I love how the symbol of the wind seems to mirror Jack's personality and role in the movie.  He's the "breathe of fresh air" so to speak and the light-hearted one (at least in the beginning).  I love the idea that the wind is in constant motion and that's how Jack has to live his life in order to facilitate the relationship with Ennis.  He's like the wind blowing back and forth across all those miles, fields, plains, etc. going back and forth between Wyoming and Texas.  And on his drive up to see Ennis right before the heartbreaking divorce scene... we can see that he enjoys this driving  and the freedom of the road (especially when he thinks Ennis is at the end of the road).
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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2006, 11:37:02 pm »
In the various discussions of the movie, I see members of the BetterMost forums and other online forums and internet email type groups using eisegesis when discussing the book and the movie.

I tried to do my best to use "exegesis" when reading Annie Proulx's Brokeback Mountain for the first time. In that, I attempted to follow the rules of literary hermeneutics and try to understand the author's own world view of what she was writing about. With exegesis, one does not attempt to read his own ideas/experiences into a story or other piece of literature, to do so is to use "eisegesis."

But, when I saw the movie several weeks after I had read the story, I had a problem with "eisegesis" when I saw the movie because I had read the story first and had some understanding of her POV.

I even feel that Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana used eisegesis in their adaptation of the story into a screenplay. I see that they added people and things which were not even in the book and probably never thought of by Annie Proulx in the first place. And, eisegesis seems to have been used by the movie makers, too.

I consider it eisegesis when people assume "wrang it out" means Ennis masturbated and "stem the rose" meant to "have anal sex with the anus being a 'rose' and a penis being a 'stem'." But, to "wring something out" has to do with thinking of the same thing over and over trying to figure out what it means, sort of like wringing the same piece of cloth over and over trying to figure out why it won't dry. And to "stem the rose" comes from the act of cutting rose blooms off of stems for no purpose whatsoever and that is from the verb, to "stem," which means "remove the stem from a flower or a fruit." Here in Oklahoma, we call removing the stems from berries "hulling them" when we are not putting hulls (stems) on them, we are taking them off.

Offline EnnisLovesJack

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2006, 04:08:45 pm »
Quote
Oh wait, that's me projecting again... ;)
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2006, 12:16:38 am »
let me add a haiku i wrote a while back.

Winds of the mountain
rush through me and I hear him
wispering my name.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 12:34:58 am by starboardlight »
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Offline EnnisLovesJack

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2006, 12:29:30 pm »
let me add a haiku i wrote a while back.

Winds of the mountain
rush through me and I hear him
wispering my name.
Very nice. I quite like that.
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2006, 04:47:03 pm »
It's easy to imagine the sheep crawling up on Jack for comfort because of that scene where the sheep is laying on Jack while getting a pedicure  ;D.

I'm going OT here, but on The Morning AFter when Ennis wakes up, do you recall how loud the sound of the rushing water is outside the tent? And what a happy sound it is?!
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2006, 04:53:16 pm »
I'm going OT here, but on The Morning AFter when Ennis wakes up, do you recall how loud the sound of the rushing water is outside the tent? And what a happy sound it is?!

I hadn't noticed that, but thanks for pointing it out, Lee! I can almost hear it. I love the way water is used to symbolize their relationship (and how scenes with Ennis and Alma often involve tap -- artificial -- water), and how sad it is when it gets stiller and stiller as the movie goes on, until in the end they're at a lake. I started wondering today if there's any significance in what direction the water is flowing -- from Ennis toward Jack, or vise versa? That might be reaching, though.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2006, 05:01:58 pm »
I hadn't noticed that, but thanks for pointing it out, Lee! I can almost hear it. I love the way water is used to symbolize their relationship (and how scenes with Ennis and Alma often involve tap -- artificial -- water), and how sad it is when it gets stiller and stiller as the movie goes on, until in the end they're at a lake. I started wondering today if there's any significance in what direction the water is flowing -- from Ennis toward Jack, or vise versa? That might be reaching, though.

I had noticed the happy rushing water sound (seems to coincide too with the look of utter contentment on Jack's face as he's sleeping), but I had not thought about the waters getting stiller and stiller throughout.  Thanks for pointing that out, Katherine!  :)
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2006, 11:58:04 pm »
Yeah, the rushing water is striking me more and more as a really significant symbol.  In some of their later camping trips they seem to be camping near what appear to be almost white water rapids.  Also, at least once, Ang Lee uses a simple shot of water rushing in a stream to transition from a camping trip back to the "real world" in average society.

Also, lately more details about the flashback are striking me.  It's hard to focus on some of the little details here because it's easy (and better) to get swept up in the emotion of the scene.  But, I've really been aware of the transition that Lee uses to shift from the intense hug at the end of the argument to the surreal and wistful peacefulness of the flashback.  The main transition is facilitated by the sound of the wind!!
 :D
Seriously, the sound effect of the wind sort of ushers the viewer out of the mindset of the argument and into the different time/place/mood of the flashback.

Very excellent.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2006, 12:28:40 pm »
Also, lately more details about the flashback are striking me.  It's hard to focus on some of the little details here because it's easy (and better) to get swept up in the emotion of the scene.  But, I've really been aware of the transition that Lee uses to shift from the intense hug at the end of the argument to the surreal and wistful peacefulness of the flashback.  The main transition is facilitated by the sound of the wind!!
 :D
Seriously, the sound effect of the wind sort of ushers the viewer out of the mindset of the argument and into the different time/place/mood of the flashback.

Thanks Amanda, I hadn't noticed that -- perhaps because as soon as the scene switches from them hugging by the lake to the flashback campfire, I always burst into tears. Not because of the argument. Lately I have found the flashback itself to be one of the saddest scenes in the whole movie, between its sad context, its suggestion of how happy they COULD have been, its showing Ennis in one of his few nurturing moments, its transition from young Jack's dreamy expression to old Jack's grim one, its "see you in the morning" and all that implies, and because it's the last time we see Jack.

You know, I just thought of another subtextual meaning for "see you in the morning" besides the sort of metaphysical ones we've discussed (e.g., see you in the next world, see you when society becomes less homophobic, etc.). In both the past and the present, Ennis rides off, confident that he will see Jack in the morning (or "in November," in the present). And in the flashback, he will. But in the present, he won't.

Is there a sound of wind I'm missing due to sobbing? Maybe that helps trigger my sadness, too.

Also, at least once, Ang Lee uses a simple shot of water rushing in a stream to transition from a camping trip back to the "real world" in average society.

And they cross a stream with the sheep when they're going up to Brokeback the first time, transitioning from the "real world" to their idyll.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2006, 03:30:42 pm by latjoreme »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2006, 04:54:05 pm »
You know, I just thought of another subtextual meaning for "see you in the morning" besides the sort of metaphysical ones we've discussed (e.g., see you in the next world, see you when society becomes less homophobic, etc.). In both the past and the present, Ennis rides off, confident that he will see Jack in the morning (or "in November," in the present). And in the flashback, he will. But in the present, he won't.

This is a very good point I think.  In both the flashback and the present, Ennis doesn't look back (obviously in the present because he's in the truck, and in the flashback he just concentrates on looking ahead.  Interesting that in both of these instances we presume that Ennis is anticipating a future with Jack (we assume he leaves the argument thinking that November actually will happen...).  This reminds me of the end of their summer on Brokeback.  Katherine, I know we've chatted a bit about the lasso, "confusing tussle" situations and Jack's upbeat tone through much of this.  It's been discussed that Ennis is all upset at the end of the Brokeback summer because he feels that it's the end of his time with Jack (so his mood is grumpy, pessimistic and angry).  Whereas at the end of that first summer Jack doesn't seem to perceive that it signals the end of their relationship at all.  It's interesting that at the end of the flashback there's that famous look from Jack that seems so contented and romantic.  But, at the end of the parallel argument scene he has the same, glum or pessimistic look that would have been more associated with Ennis's mood at the end of the first summer.  I guess this is just a signal of foreboding... but man!

So sad!
 :'(
« Last Edit: May 21, 2006, 12:04:59 am by atz75 »
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2006, 07:51:55 pm »
In both the flashback and the present, Ennis doesn't look back (obviously in the present because he's in the truck, and in the flashback he just concentrates on looking ahead.  Interesting that in both of these instances we presume that Ennis is anticipating a future with Jack (we assume he leaves the argument thinking that November actuall will happen...).  This reminds me of the end of their summer on Brokeback.  Katherine, I know we've chatted a bit about the lasso, "confusing tussle" situations and Jack's upbeat tone through much of this.  It's been discussed that Ennis is all upset at the end of the Brokeback summer because he feels that it's the end of his time with Jack (so his mood is grumpy, pessimistic and angry).  Whereas at the end of that first summer Jack doesn't seem to perceive that it signals the end of their relationship at all.  It's interesting that at the end of the flashback there's that famous look from Jack that seems so contented and romantic.  But, at the end of the parallel argument scene he has the same, glum or pessimistic look that would have been more associated with Ennis's mood at the end of the first summer.  I guess this is just a signal of foreboding... but man!

So sad!
 :'(

You are right. The difference between Jack's expressions is like the difference between a sunny sky and a dark one. That alone should be a signal of impending disaster. And good point about how the two of them switched in demeanor and expectations, from the end of one era to the end of another.

Also, you've alluded to yet another reason I find the flashback so sad. Ennis doesn't look back. Who leaves someone they love so quickly and easily after such a tender moment? I don't know what it's supposed to mean, if anything. Clearly Ennis does love Jack. But I know it's another factor that makes that scene especially hard  to watch. Is it a sign that even from the beginning Ennis took their love too much for granted?

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2006, 12:22:38 am »
I don't know how exactly to interpret Ennis not looking back in the flashback either.  But, here are a few ideas.  I'm brainstorming here... I'm not sure how these ideas fit together yet.  Somehow Ennis not looking back makes the flashback seem very dream-like.  I think it's fair to say that even though this is a shared memory between Jack and Ennis, we see the flashback from the viewpoint of Jack's memory (this is more explicit in the story... and wow, isn't this a contrast in the two flashbacks we see in the movie... Ennis's Earl flashback and Jack's romantic flashback).   I think Ennis riding away without looking back might be just another example (in Jack's mind) of Ennis holding-back too much in terms of affection.  But, at the same time, in riding away, Ennis becomes a pure image of Jack's ideal cowboy.  We've all talked about Ennis eyeing Jack on horseback in early scenes in the movie as evidence that Jack fulfills Ennis's cowboy-fantasy too, in terms of pure visuals.  So, this is Jack's turn.  Jack probably remembers being able to drink in the sight of Ennis after the embrace as a super happy part of his memory since this happened when he too was still very optimisitc about the future and knew that the morning would come.

One more idea... I wonder if this is the filmmakers' translation of Proulx's disheartening idea that Ennis would not embrace Jack from the front and did not want to look at him in the face during this hug.  I think the filmmakers improve 100 percent on this in the actual embrace... I think they try hard and Heath tries hard to convey the idea that he's gazing at Jack's profile.  Proulx's notion also doesn't make much sense in the film given the intimacy of the 2nd tent scene.  But,  maybe Ennis not looking back as he rides away is meant to evoke this idea that Ennis was still resisting certain kinds of intimacy.
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Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2006, 12:37:22 am »
I loooove the wind metaphor in this movie. It is, to me, probably the most touching of them all.

It's been a few weeks since I last watched this movie but if I remember accurately, when Ennis is sitting by the window in Jack's childhood bedroom as he looks over into Jack's old closet, wind can be heard.

I love the presence of wind in the final scene -- so astonishingly moving -- and how it follows Ennis up the mountain after they first have sex, also after Jack and Ennis leave each other after their first summer on Brokeback...

And this brilliant symbol makes the first Alma and Ennis love scene seem much more integral and excellent with the "lonely" bit.

Next time I watch I am going to try to decipher the rushing water symbol. This seems intriguing to me.
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Offline Sheyne

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2006, 04:59:20 am »

Ang Lee himself has commented that the water imagery is a direct metaphor for the love between the men. Cannot think where I heard him say it, but he did.

After the first tent scene: as Ennis peers outside the flap of the tent, we can hear that beautiful trickling water (their intimate relationship has begun). Whenever we see them together camping, we see running water - even the time they caught up together when Ennis first brought the horses - just before the cutaway to Jack and Bobbie in that big farming truck together, we see a close up of the rushing stream.

Someone mentioned the white water rapids...  If memory serves, that was their fishing trip after the 4 year reunion - ie their love is powerful, reignited and explosive. They even strip off completely naked and leap off a cliff into the water - is that not an amazing metaphor for "diving into their relationship head first"?

Their trip just before Ennis meets Cassie, they're beside a running river, but its nowhere near as powerful a current as previous scenes. I mean, they may have argued and bickered, but their love is still strong. 

Which makes the lake scene - beside a totally still body of water - completely devastating.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2006, 12:19:14 pm »
Isn't it amazing how consistent and ever-present all these symbols are -- water, wind (and fans), buckets, coffee pots, cold/snow, etc. -- throughout the whole movie? I love how in Ennis' trailer at the end you see the coffee pot and the big fan.


Offline starboardlight

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2006, 01:27:36 pm »
Isn't it amazing how consistent and ever-present all these symbols are -- water, wind (and fans), buckets, coffee pots, cold/snow, etc. -- throughout the whole movie? I love how in Ennis' trailer at the end you see the coffee pot and the big fan.



What's the coffee pot metaphor?
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2006, 01:34:56 pm »
This is a very good point I think.  In both the flashback and the present, Ennis doesn't look back (obviously in the present because he's in the truck, and in the flashback he just concentrates on looking ahead.  Interesting that in both of these instances we presume that Ennis is anticipating a future with Jack (we assume he leaves the argument thinking that November actually will happen...).  This reminds me of the end of their summer on Brokeback.  Katherine, I know we've chatted a bit about the lasso, "confusing tussle" situations and Jack's upbeat tone through much of this.  It's been discussed that Ennis is all upset at the end of the Brokeback summer because he feels that it's the end of his time with Jack (so his mood is grumpy, pessimistic and angry).  Whereas at the end of that first summer Jack doesn't seem to perceive that it signals the end of their relationship at all.  It's interesting that at the end of the flashback there's that famous look from Jack that seems so contented and romantic.  But, at the end of the parallel argument scene he has the same, glum or pessimistic look that would have been more associated with Ennis's mood at the end of the first summer.  I guess this is just a signal of foreboding... but man!

So sad!
 :'(

I really love the parallel between the two parting scenes; end of first summer and lake side showdown. they both seems to have the same structure. The two men grapple with one another, one physically, the other emotionally. They hurt one another, inadvertently and purposely. Both scenes, Jack embraces Ennis and tells him "It's alright." And there's a riding away and "looking back". August is an issue. Money is an issue. I really love your take on the "looking back" and role reversal. In one Ennis believes it would their last time together, in the other, it's Jack who is glim and pessimitic.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2006, 05:36:49 pm »
OOooh, Nipith! I'd never thought of some of those little details! You're right -- when Jack says, "What the hell happened to August?" he's essentially saying the exact thing Ennis said when leaving Brokeback. And both times, Ennis being broke is a factor, though for different reasons.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2006, 05:42:16 pm »
Ang Lee himself has commented that the water imagery is a direct metaphor for the love between the men. Cannot think where I heard him say it, but he did.

and

Quote from: latjoreme
I love the way water is used to symbolize their relationship (and how scenes with Ennis and Alma often involve tap -- artificial -- water), and how sad it is when it gets stiller and stiller as the movie goes on, until in the end they're at a lake.

Great observations! Very powerful and expressive imagery with the rushing water, turning still and placid towards the end of the film.  :'(

At the Toronto Film Festival's Press Conference after the screening there of BBM in the autumn of 2005, one of the questions asked to the actors was how they worked and what they did in order to ensure that the chemistry between their characters worked. In the course of some rather meandering replies, Jake Gyllenhaal said that in preparing for scenes, they were helped by whole paragraphs of screen directions in the script, explaining what the characters were feeling. He gave as an example  that at one point, the script said that when Jack looks at Ennis, he "feels as if 1,000 rivers flow through him."

(I can't recall whether that sentence is in the actual final script - I think not, but I may be wrong in that?)  Either way it does confirm the rushing water imagery as symbolic of Jack and Ennis's love.

It also serves to explain why the sad flashback to Ennis's childhood appears to take place in the most arid and desert-like landscape of the entire movie, a contrast to the rushing waters of Brokeback Mountain and all that they symbolize.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2006, 05:45:00 pm by Mikaela »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2006, 05:54:05 pm »
What's the coffee pot metaphor?

Somewhere around here there is a thread discussing this. It started with buckets. The poster (damn, I hate not being able to give proper credit but as usual I can't remember who posted this brilliant observation) noticed that buckets keep appearing at key points throughout the movie. While setting up camp, Jack carries buckets overflowing with water (i.e., their relationship) and sets them down by Ennis. Ennis knocks over a bucket on his way into the tent in TS1. Later, he angrily kicks one when he's fighting with Alma -- and the bucket's full of ashes. He drops a bucket when Jack suggests he move to Texas. I think there are others. If you missed that one, I'll see if I can find it for you, because it was great.

So that led to a discussion of coffee pots, with people noticing that the coffee pot seems to represent Jack, while the bucket represents Ennis. Ennis is washing out a coffee pot in that early scene when he's standing in the river and worriedly watches Jack ride up the mountain. The morning after TS1, he opens the tent flap and the first objects in view are a coffee pot and bucket (now uprighted). In the dozy embrace scene, the coffee pot and bucket are standing cozily side-by-side on the grill. Jack's mom serves Ennis coffee. In Ennis' trailer, there's a coffee pot on the stove, and he serves Alma Jr. coffee.  There are probably others I'm not remembering.

Quote
It also serves to explain why the sad flashback to Ennis's childhood appears to take place in the most arid and desert-like landscape of the entire movie, a contrast to the rushing waters of Brokeback Mountain and all that they symbolize.

Hey yeah, Mikaela! Good one. And while we're on that subject, the last time I watched I noticed the ominous music we hear in that flashback scene sounds a lot like the ominous music when Ennis finds the dead sheep.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2006, 06:55:41 pm »
Hey starboardlight, I just found the thread I was referring to. In fact, it's still active on this very board. It's called "on buckets, eagles, impatience and ..."

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=569.0

Now I can properly credit Front-Ranger for her brilliant discovery of the bucket motif. Here is one of her really good observations:

Quote
The last time I saw the bucket, my heart sank. Jack and Ennis were camping beside a stream and for the last time Jack suggested that Ennis leave Riverton and come and live near him in Texas. Ennis responds angrily and while he is berating Jack, a bucket starts to float down the stream. Silently I cried out, Ennis, your life and all your chances for happiness are floating away! But Ennis just kept grousing about how Jack was a big thinker (dreamer). Jack F**king Twist.

And further on, Amanda lists all the bucket and coffee pot references. A good one she spotted that I'd forgotten about is where Ennis says "the only traveling I've ever done is around a coffee pot looking for the handle."

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2006, 07:30:59 pm »
Hooray for buckets and coffeepots!

OK, so now I've been thinking a bit about dialogue and parallel and/ or wierd moments when the same of similar lines of dialogue are repeated.  I started thinking about this because of the August observation above.  At the end of the first summer Ennis is angry at the idea that Aguirre wants them to leave early and exclaims "but it's the middle of August"... and at the end in the argument (as has been noted above) Jack asks "what the hell ever happened to August?"  So, it's not exactly the same, but a really noticeable and important parallel.  Another example... The fact that Jack's Dad uses Jack's catch phrase, "tell you what..." also seems important as an indication of family ties and habits and as a sad reminder to Ennis of Jack.

So, here's the one that I just noticed last night and I have no idea what to make of this (it's OT as it doesn't seem to have much to do with wind or water).  When Aguirre comes to tell Jack about his uncle in the hospital as Jack's chopping wood, Aguirre says "your Ma sent me to tell you so here I am."  When Jack comes to Wyoming for the surprise visit to Ennis in the post-divorce scene he uses the exact same phrase... "I got you card about the divorce... so here I am."  He even says that phrase in a very similar way to how Aguirre said it.  Why would this phrase be repeated in these two contexts?  The scenes seem to have little to do with one another.  Any thoughts?
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Offline twistedude

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2006, 09:52:56 pm »
Don't know (like Randall, '
Don't know."), but Jack never controlled anything, except the soul of the nman he loved, by dying...
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2006, 12:55:42 am »
Another example... The fact that Jack's Dad uses Jack's catch phrase, "tell you what..." also seems important as an indication of family ties and habits and as a sad reminder to Ennis of Jack.

So, here's the one that I just noticed last night and I have no idea what to make of this (it's OT as it doesn't seem to have much to do with wind or water).  When Aguirre comes to tell Jack about his uncle in the hospital as Jack's chopping wood, Aguirre says "your Ma sent me to tell you so here I am."  When Jack comes to Wyoming for the surprise visit to Ennis in the post-divorce scene he uses the exact same phrase... "I got you card about the divorce... so here I am."  He even says that phrase in a very similar way to how Aguirre said it.  Why would this phrase be repeated in these two contexts?  The scenes seem to have little to do with one another.  Any thoughts?

I don't have the answer to this. But Amanda, these verbal repetitions could almost be a whole new thread. I certainly have noticed the "Tell you what." I'll try to see if I can think of any others. ...

... OK, here's one. It's not hugely original, because we've talked about it before. But anyway: "What's your name?" "Ennis ... Del Mar." (And I love, in the Cassie scene, that odd little half-smile Ennis gives after saying that.) Oh, and another example of this line is the cute funny way (despite the sad context) he signs his last postcard with his whole name. Like if he just said "Ennis," Jack might be left wondering which Ennis it could be.



Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2006, 06:36:05 am »
... OK, here's one. It's not hugely original, because we've talked about it before. But anyway: "What's your name?" "Ennis ... Del Mar." (And I love, in the Cassie scene, that odd little half-smile Ennis gives after saying that.) Oh, and another example of this line is the cute funny way (despite the sad context) he signs his last postcard with his whole name. Like if he just said "Ennis," Jack might be left wondering which Ennis it could be.

ROTFL!  You are too funny Katherine!  And I love the smiling "Del Mar" that Ennis emphasises in the Cassie scene - not going to make that mistake again.  You guys are amazing and my head's spinning just reading this.  I can't believe that you're still finding more symbolism and metaphors that work so beautifully and cleverly that they must be intentional.  I don't really have any help for you at this stage, you're all on a level I could begin to dream of.  I will think about it though!
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2006, 10:20:22 am »
It also serves to explain why the sad flashback to Ennis's childhood appears to take place in the most arid and desert-like landscape of the entire movie, a contrast to the rushing waters of Brokeback Mountain and all that they symbolize.
Oh, wow, good catch, Mikaela. That's the scene that I think was filmed in New Mexico (the vegetation and rocks look like northern NM, at least), and every now and then I've wondered why they trekked all the way down to New Mexico to film that scene. I mean, it seems as if they managed to find places to stand in for everything else, even Texas, in Alberta. I haven't been through Ennis's hometown, but at that elevation and in that part of Wyoming, the vegetation should be a bit different, still sagebrush but not so desert-like.

But if they wanted a lack of water to be really symbolic of that memory, well, that makes the choice make more sense.

Katherine:
Quote
But anyway: "What's your name?" "Ennis ... Del Mar." (And I love, in the Cassie scene, that odd little half-smile Ennis gives after saying that.)
And that sets up a sad parallel with Jack's encounter with Randall, when Randall talks about getting together to go fishing and everything. Other people are trying to pick up both Ennis and Jack, but the experiences just remind both men of each other.

You know, I like the additions of the Cassie and Randall stories to the movie. They show just how intense the bond between Ennis and Jack was -- even after so many years of being surrounded by other people, it's clear that none of the other options is a satisfying substitute.

As for other repeated lines: Ennis calls Jack "Jack fucking Twist" at the reunion and the 2nd to last camping trip. (And in the lake confrontation? I can't remember.) Jack calls Ennis "son of a bitch" at the reunion, and "son of a whore-son bitch" in the lake confrontation. Terms of affection turned painful. :(
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2006, 12:49:00 pm »
Thanks, Katharine and Amanda, for unburying that thread and for your kind comments. It was Amanda who pointed out about Ennis and the coffeepot.

About the “And here I am” statements, I’m sure I don’t begin to understand them but I will make a start. We hear “And here I am” in two places: . Each time there is an undercurrent of uneasiness. Aguirre is spurred by Jack’s mother to appear at the camp. Through him, she offers an out if he wants to leave his job. Perhaps she misses him (I know I would!) and wants him to return. Perhaps Uncle Harold is gay and/or Jack has a special relationship with him. In the latter declaration, Alma offers Ennis an out of the sham he is living by divorcing him. Jack shows up and says “And here I am” at the pivotal point. Ennis, panicking because now he has to make a commitment or at least a decision, uses his daughters as his latest excuse. Jack must have had qualms that this would happen; thus he sends no advance post card and makes no phone call before his visit. I’m not sure if Jack’s actions are premeditated or wishful thinking, but the end result is that, in both cases, a door is opened and no one goes through it.
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2006, 01:36:25 pm »
So that led to a discussion of coffee pots, with people noticing that the coffee pot seems to represent Jack, while the bucket represents Ennis. Ennis is washing out a coffee pot in that early scene when he's standing in the river and worriedly watches Jack ride up the mountain. The morning after TS1, he opens the tent flap and the first objects in view are a coffee pot and bucket (now uprighted). In the dozy embrace scene, the coffee pot and bucket are standing cozily side-by-side on the grill. Jack's mom serves Ennis coffee. In Ennis' trailer, there's a coffee pot on the stove, and he serves Alma Jr. coffee.  There are probably others I'm not remembering.

how did I miss that discussion. I like the bucket and coffee pot analysis. Jack as the coffee pot, makes Ennis's "only traveling I eve done, was around the coffee pot looking for the handle" kinda sexy metaphor. It certainly fits into that part of the discussion about Mexico with a new underlayer for me.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2006, 01:53:00 pm »
Jack as the coffee pot, makes Ennis's "only traveling I ever done, was around the coffee pot looking for the handle" kinda sexy metaphor.

That's for sure!

Offline starboardlight

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2006, 02:28:24 pm »
That's for sure!

recalls the reach around in the TS1, even if it's instigated by Jack.
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Offline belbbmfan

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2006, 03:55:32 pm »
fantastic thread! the coffeepot and bucket theme are new to me.
As for the repeat lines: the 'what are you doing?' Ennis said to both Jack and Cassie always struck me as very poignant. At both stages in his life, Ennis reacts surprised (Cassie) or shocked (Jack) that anyone would want to touch him or be physically close to him.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2006, 04:37:34 pm »
fantastic thread! the coffeepot and bucket theme are new to me.
As for the repeat lines: the 'what are you doing?' Ennis said to both Jack and Cassie always struck me as very poignant. At both stages in his life, Ennis reacts surprised (Cassie) or shocked (Jack) that anyone would want to touch him or be physically close to him.

Another excellent catch, belbbmfan.  And the beginning of another beautiful friendship.  So glad you're here with us.  :)
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2006, 07:00:29 pm »
Other people are trying to pick up both Ennis and Jack, but the experiences just remind both men of each other.

You know, I like the additions of the Cassie and Randall stories to the movie. They show just how intense the bond between Ennis and Jack was -- even after so many years of being surrounded by other people, it's clear that none of the other options is a satisfying substitute.

As for other repeated lines: Ennis calls Jack "Jack fucking Twist" at the reunion and the 2nd to last camping trip. (And in the lake confrontation? I can't remember.) Jack calls Ennis "son of a bitch" at the reunion, and "son of a whore-son bitch" in the lake confrontation. Terms of affection turned painful. :(

All of this is quite excellent nakymaton!  And, belbbmfan, I completely agree.  I've always heard Ennis's little question "what are you doing" - especially in the first tent scene - as a sign of his low self esteem.  He can't believe he could be so attractive to someone.  I never noticed the parallel with Cassie's line. Also quite excellent.  I like the intersection of both of your comments.
 :D
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2006, 12:04:06 pm »
Heya,
Back to the wind topic and Jack's symbols more generally...  I just posted this over in the "I love everything Brokeback" thread last night.  And it occurs to me that it would be worthwhile to post it here too.

A discussion came up about the two notes that seem to echo each other at the very beginning of the BBM score as the movie starts.  So, this was my reply:

I always hear those two notes as echos... meant to foreshadow the Jack/ Ennis relationship.  It's interesting that Ennis enters the picture in a literal way (we see him coming) but Jack enters the situation symbolically before we see him.  The echo in ths score, the wind that's really prominent before he arrives, and the little symbol of the rodeo cowboy on the semi-truck's license plate all seem to be clues that Jack is arriving too.  I love that license plate by the way.  It's how he leaves the film too... he dies but his symbols persist for several important scenes after he's no longer around as a person.

So, here's what I find really interesting about this.  It seems to me that Jack is not only a real person/character but, in the form of the symbols that surround him, Jack is the abstract idea of Ennis's sexuality or desire.  So before he even meets Jack all of these emotions and ideas and desires are swirling around in Ennis's head but he doesn't quite know what they mean.  The wind at the beginning hasn't yet taken on its full significance, but it does represent something that's already inside Ennis. Symbols like the wind are still abstract and unfocused at this point.  Once Jack appears on the scene all of these things inside Ennis that add up to his "awakening" sexuality start to focus on Jack.  So that by the time the movie is over and Jack is gone, all of the symbols, like the wind, etc. have taken on huge amounts of meaning and are completely linked to Jack.


« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 11:12:07 pm by atz75 »
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2006, 12:22:17 pm »
Heya,
Back to the wind topic and Jack's symbols more generally...  I just posted this over in the "I love everything Brokeback" thread last night.  And it occurs to me that it would be worthwhile to post it here too.

A discussion came up about the two notes that seem to echo each other at the very beginning of the BBM score as the movie starts.  So, this was my reply:

I always hear those two notes as echos... meant to foreshadow the Jack/ Ennis relationship.  It's interesting that Ennis enters the picture in a literal way (we see him coming) but Jack enters the situation symbolically before we see him.  The echo in ths score, the wind that's really prominent before he arrives, and the little symbol of the rodeo cowboy on the semi-truck's license plate all seem to be clues that Jack is arriving too.  I love that license plate by the way.  It's how he leaves the film too... he dies but his symbols persist for several important scenes after he's no longer around as a person.

So, here's what I find really interesting about this.  It seems to me that Jack is not only a real person/character but, in the form of the symbols that surround him, Jack is the abstract idea of Ennis's sexuality or desire.  So before he even meets Jack all of these emotions and ideas and desires are swirling around in Ennis's head but he doesn't quite know what they mean.  The wind at the beginning hasn't yet taken on it's full significance, but it does represent something that's already inside Ennis. Symbols like the wind are still abstract and unfocused at this point.  Once Jack appears on the scene all of these things inside Ennis that add up to his "awakening" sexuality start to focus on Jack.  So that by the time the movie is over and Jack is gone, all of the symbols, like the wind, etc. have taken on huge amounts of meaning and are completely linked to Jack.




i love that thought, and so beautifully articulated. don't think I can add much to that, but just take pleasure in reading it again.  :)
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2006, 12:31:45 pm »
Thanks starlightboard! :D

I don't know why I keep obsessing about topics like this one.  I guess I like to think about these details because they make almost every little aspect of the movie come alive.

cheers!
« Last Edit: May 29, 2006, 04:39:35 pm by atz75 »
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Offline belbbmfan

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2006, 01:16:21 pm »
I don't know why I keep obsessing about topics like this one.  I guess I like to think about these details I guess because they make almost every little aspect of the movie come alive.

Please, let's never stop obsessing! The symbol of the wind is so powerfull. While I was reading some of these posts, I thought of a song by Lucinda Williams 'I envy the wind'

I envy the wind
That whispers in your ear
That howls through the winter
That freezes your fingers
That moves through your hair
And cracks your lips
And chills you to the bone
I envy the wind

I envy the rain
That falls on your face
That wets your eyelashes
And dampens your skin
And touches your tongue
And soaks through your shirt
And drips down your back
I envy the rain

I envy the sun
That brightens your summer
That warms your body
And holds you in her heat
And makes your days longer
And makes you hot
And makes you sweat
I envy the sun
I envy the wind, I envy the rain, I envy the sun, I envy the wind
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Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2006, 01:25:26 pm »
Quote
Please, let's never stop obsessing!

Seriously! All this brilliant, beautiful symbolism makes me love the movie even more. And it's astonishing how many layers and nuances there are in this film.
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Offline nakymaton

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2006, 04:14:39 pm »
It's interesting that Ennis enters the picture in a literal way (we see him coming) but Jack enters the situation symbolically before we see him.  The echo in ths score, the wind that's really prominent before he arrives, and the little symbol of the rodeo cowboy on the semi-truck's license plate all seem to be clues that Jack is arriving too.  I love that license plate by the way.

Oh, wow, it had never occurred to me that the cowboy on the Wyoming license plate could be symbolically linked to Jack. (That cowboy has been on Wyoming license plates forever -- it's one of the few license plate symbols that stayed constant when the trend toward multi-colored plates started in... the late 80's? the 90's?)

I love the idea that the guitar in the score symbolizes Ennis, and the other instrument symbolizes Jack. (What's the other instrument? It sounds like a dobro or something, but I think I'm wrong about that.) Someday I'm going to be able to distance myself enough from the characters to really listen to the score (and watch the cinematography). I keep meaning to really listen, or really look at little details, and then I get drawn into the characters and I forget what I meant to be listening for.

Poor Ennis. He'll keep seeing that cowboy on license plates until he dies.  :'( I mean, I guess it's great that Jack is everywhere still, but it's sad at the same time, if that makes sense.
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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2006, 04:36:39 pm »
Quote
It's interesting that Ennis enters the picture in a literal way (we see him coming) but Jack enters the situation symbolically before we see him.  The echo in ths score, the wind that's really prominent before he arrives, and the little symbol of the rodeo cowboy on the semi-truck's license plate all seem to be clues that Jack is arriving too.  I love that license plate by the way.

Oh, wow, it had never occurred to me that the cowboy on the Wyoming license plate could be symbolically linked to Jack. (That cowboy has been on Wyoming license plates forever -- it's one of the few license plate symbols that stayed constant when the trend toward multi-colored plates started in... the late 80's? the 90's?)

I love the idea that the guitar in the score symbolizes Ennis, and the other instrument symbolizes Jack. (What's the other instrument? It sounds like a dobro or something, but I think I'm wrong about that.) Someday I'm going to be able to distance myself enough from the characters to really listen to the score (and watch the cinematography). I keep meaning to really listen, or really look at little details, and then I get drawn into the characters and I forget what I meant to be listening for.

Poor Ennis. He'll keep seeing that cowboy on license plates until he dies.  :'( I mean, I guess it's great that Jack is everywhere still, but it's sad at the same time, if that makes sense.

It was Larry McMurtry and possibly Diana Ossana who decided that Ennis would hitch a ride with a semi truckdriver to Signal, Wyoming. The Story Ennis arrives at the parking lot of Aguirre's trailer office in his own truck. Story Ennis might have been broke; but, he never hitched ride in the original story.

On a number of non-USA websites where there are screen caps and possibily publicity stills, while leaning against a GMC pickup truck, Jack and Ennis are wearing the very same shirts that they wore up on Brokeback Mountain and the very "same" ones which got the blood on them their last day on the mountain.

The truck is the very same one which Ennis was driving when he brought his horses home and Alma was using a washboard to do their laundry. It is also the same one which he drove in Riverton, too.

Did Ang Lee originally want to make the movie jibe more with Annie Proulx's original story line and have Ennis drive his own truck in 1963?

Offline Mikaela

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2006, 05:49:43 am »
Mulling over the discussion so far in this thread...... I love the insights here!

It struck me that there might be some sort of "air and wind" connection and difference inherent in the Jack/Lureen relationship. Jack is connected with wind, and Lureen...... well, the very first time we meet her, as she's being introduced in the barrel racing competition, the speaker says: Look at her fly! He could logically have continued: "...... like the wind!" and it would have made perfect sense. That's certainly what he's implying.

The reason for Lureen's developing hairstyles has been discussed a lot, I know. Maybe this is *way* too far-fetched, even symbolically, but nevertheless: As her hair gets more elaborate and "starched" in every scene it looks more and more like a strictly indoor "do" - something that requires her to keep herself away from wind and open air and the elements in order to preserve the facade. It's as if she's communicating a hurt "right back at ya" that way: "If the wind doesn't want anything to do with me, well - I don't need or want the wind in any case! So there!"

Offline ednbarby

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #57 on: June 07, 2006, 09:28:00 am »
Mulling over the discussion so far in this thread...... I love the insights here!

It struck me that there might be some sort of "air and wind" connection and difference inherent in the Jack/Lureen relationship. Jack is connected with wind, and Lureen...... well, the very first time we meet her, as she's being introduced in the barrel racing competition, the speaker says: Look at her fly! He could logically have continued: "...... like the wind!" and it would have made perfect sense. That's certainly what he's implying.

The reason for Lureen's developing hairstyles has been discussed a lot, I know. Maybe this is *way* too far-fetched, even symbolically, but nevertheless: As her hair gets more elaborate and "starched" in every scene it looks more and more like a strictly indoor "do" - something that requires her to keep herself away from wind and open air and the elements in order to preserve the facade. It's as if she's communicating a hurt "right back at ya" that way: "If the wind doesn't want anything to do with me, well - I don't need or want the wind in any case! So there!"

Wow.  Another excellent observation. 

You know it strikes me - I wonder what Diana/Larry/Ang/Annie would think of all these discussions if they knew about them.  Somehow I believe that few, if any, of these observations would draw a "I never thought of that" response out of any of them.  (I do think they might be a bit concerned at how obsessed/obsessive we all are, though.  ;))
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2006, 01:25:46 pm »
You know it strikes me - I wonder what Diana/Larry/Ang/Annie would think of all these discussions if they knew about them.  Somehow I believe that few, if any, of these observations would draw a "I never thought of that" response out of any of them.  (I do think they might be a bit concerned at how obsessed/obsessive we all are, though.  ;))

I've wondered about that, too. I think the vast majority of our observations they would recognize because they were intentional. In some cases, they would be amazed that anyone even noticed (the yin/yang cherry cake? the opaque/transparent bread bag?). I suppose inevitably they'd think a few are off the mark (clarifying: not necessarily the cake or the bread bag!).

And there might even be a few to which they might say, "You know, I didn't plan it that way, but now that they say it, it makes perfect sense!"

Sometimes I wonder if they actually have been here. I know they're busy, but if it were me I'd have a hard time resisting a peek or two.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2006, 05:06:40 pm by latjoreme »

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #59 on: June 07, 2006, 01:32:09 pm »
I am reading the 2003 screenplay and several concepts are introduced there that are either developed more fully in the final or dropped completely, and these tend to confirm that many of the allusions we've seen are true.
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2006, 04:08:52 pm »
I am reading the 2003 screenplay and several concepts are introduced there that are either developed more fully in the final or dropped completely, and these tend to confirm that many of the allusions we've seen are true.

reading the characters with their elemental association is definitely not a stretch. Michelle Williams definitely talked about evoking the quality of water in her performance, when she did a Q&A at the Pacific Design Center in LA. It confirmed for me that Ennis, Jack, Alma and Lureen are Earth, Wind, Water and Fire respectively.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #61 on: June 07, 2006, 05:07:47 pm »
It confirmed for me that Ennis, Jack, Alma and Lureen are Earth, Wind, Water and Fire respectively.

Hunh? I always thought water was Ennis' and Jack's relationship. Or maybe that's bodies of water? Or outdoor water?

Offline starboardlight

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2006, 08:14:28 pm »
Hunh? I always thought water was Ennis' and Jack's relationship. Or maybe that's bodies of water? Or outdoor water?

there's the characters taking on the quality of the elements, and there the elements themselves.

We always see Alma around water of some form. She doing laundry, washing dishes at the sink, steam shooting through laundry vent as she angrily storms out from apartment in "no body's eating, unless you're serving it" scene, the snow outside as she confronts Ennis with the sink running. Michelle Williams explained how water has this strength to hold up ten thousand ton metal ships and yet is so formless that it collapse through your fingers. I definitely see that tension in her reaction to the reunion kiss. She's holding up a huge weight, yet she's about to collapse into a puddle on the floor.

So Alma character is describe as being water like. That doesn't mean that Water necessarily represents Alma. Does that make sense? Perhaps the distinction is in civilization water vs. outdoor water? I'm not sure. The visual of water movement clearly correspond with the dynamic in Ennis' and Jack's relationship. Yet, at the same time, Alma's story arc also flow like water. She tends toward path of least resistance, eventually settling for a comfortable if passionless life with Monroe.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #63 on: June 07, 2006, 08:41:04 pm »
OK, thanks Nipith, I think I get it. And actually I myself have also thought this:

Perhaps the distinction is in civilization water vs. outdoor water?

I've noticed Alma is often associated with indoor water, while Jack, or Jack and Ennis, are always around outdoor water. The distinction is particularly apparent in the two shirt-washing scenes.

Offline wolf

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #64 on: June 07, 2006, 10:33:31 pm »
Sometimes I wonder if they actually have been here. I know they're busy, but if it were me I'd have a hard time resisting a peek or two.


far be it from me to claim any sort of real knowledge about this  8), but it's worth noting that key players in phenomenons like BBM, the sort that give birth to gargantuan cyber worlds, almost ALWAYS watch and listen.  many, and those you're referring to are no exception, participate.  'they' have very good cloaking devices  ;).

w


Offline nakymaton

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2006, 11:24:26 pm »
Mulling over the discussion so far in this thread...... I love the insights here!

It struck me that there might be some sort of "air and wind" connection and difference inherent in the Jack/Lureen relationship. Jack is connected with wind, and Lureen...... well, the very first time we meet her, as she's being introduced in the barrel racing competition, the speaker says: Look at her fly! He could logically have continued: "...... like the wind!" and it would have made perfect sense. That's certainly what he's implying.

The reason for Lureen's developing hairstyles has been discussed a lot, I know. Maybe this is *way* too far-fetched, even symbolically, but nevertheless: As her hair gets more elaborate and "starched" in every scene it looks more and more like a strictly indoor "do" - something that requires her to keep herself away from wind and open air and the elements in order to preserve the facade. It's as if she's communicating a hurt "right back at ya" that way: "If the wind doesn't want anything to do with me, well - I don't need or want the wind in any case! So there!"

Also, fire needs air to keep burning. Take away the air... and the fire goes out.

Sometimes I feel really sorry for Lureen. She was smart, she was aggressive... and she went for the wrong guy.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2006, 11:35:14 pm »
reading the characters with their elemental association is definitely not a stretch. Michelle Williams definitely talked about evoking the quality of water in her performance, when she did a Q&A at the Pacific Design Center in LA. It confirmed for me that Ennis, Jack, Alma and Lureen are Earth, Wind, Water and Fire respectively.

Heya,
I'm happy to see this thread come back to life!   I agree starboardlight. I feel quite comfortable discussing the nature symbols at length simply due to the movie's tag line too.  "Love is a force of nature."  I feel like that sentence must be an important key to certain aspects of the film if the writers chose to highlight it so prominently.

The water discussion is making me think about what Jake says in one of the bonus feature interviews... Jake said that Lee told him that Jack and Lureen go together "like milk and water."  Jake goes on to make a joke about this as being awfully vague... but again here we have Lee explicitly using metaphors like this in his direction.

And, back to the wind topic and laundry... A moment in the sequences leading up to the reunion really struck me as interesting.  When Ennis pulls into his drive way and gets out of his truck to head up to the apartment (right before Alma tells him that he got a postcard from someone named Jack) the vent from the laundromat kicks on audibly and visibly.  The hot steam from the vent blows the hot steam out towards the truck and Ennis as a whirling sound starts up.  Very excellent.  Then, when Ennis is actually in the kitchen to receive that first postcard there's another vent prominently visible over the stove (it doesn't seem to be moving or doing anything visible/audible as far as I can tell).  I think all fans and vents in the film tend to be interesting visual stand-ins for the wind idea. 

ps. wolf, that was a very intriguing post!


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Offline wolf

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2006, 11:58:53 pm »
lovin' this Jack The Wind thread  :).

if wind isn't the ultimate 'merchandise' I don't know what is!

atz, just wanted to issue a heads up to the effect you might be surprised who you're 'talking' to  :P.

w

Offline Mikaela

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #68 on: June 09, 2006, 08:34:12 pm »
Quote
Sometimes I feel really sorry for Lureen. She was smart, she was aggressive... and she went for the wrong guy.


I do feel sorry for Lureen. I really like her a lot, except her mothering skills. I even think it's debatable whether she went for the wrong guy. (And not just because I'd totally have gone for him too!  :P ) My opinion is that she truly loves Jack, and that's what keeps her in the marriage to the end. And given that premise, we're back to discussing whether it's "Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all". Does that apply when the love is one-sided? Lureen might never have loved anyone else, and if so..... arguably, and sadly, she went for the right guy. Though it makes me depressed even to write that.


Quote
I've noticed Alma is often associated with indoor water, while Jack, or Jack and Ennis, are always around outdoor water. The distinction is particularly apparent in the two shirt-washing scenes.


Perhaps the distinction can also serve to explain the difference in their state of (un)dress in those scenes? Not that I *mind* Jack doing outdoors activities in the nude - very far from it  :P  - but that just doesn't make sense to me. The symbolical sense is tenuous - the realistic, practical sense escapes me, I'm embarrassed to admit. I can see how the FNIT might have soiled certain pieces of clothing, but why not put on the clean set and wash the dirty ones? Or....doesn't he have an extra pair of trousers? How did he manage to make the clothes dry till he went up to Ennis later in the day - the weather wasn't especally warm. And so forth.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2006, 08:44:32 pm by Mikaela »

Offline Mikaela

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2006, 01:50:44 pm »
Last time I saw the movie on the big screen, it seemed to me that Jack had the car window open, rolled all the way down when he's driving north to the post-divorce scene. Hence the clear view out the window; - he does at any rate have that window all the way down as his car comes into view at Ennis's place. Then, as he drives back, it seems he's rolled the window up - that would be a realistic sort of reason for the blurry view and the "seen through tears" visual impact.

But it's hard to tell for sure - especially with the way he supports his elbow against (or on) the window sill in both scenes.

Anyway, the use of open window/closed window in those scenes would fit perfectly and poignantly  with the wind symbolism that has been discussed in this thread and also with the later scene where Ennis opens jack's window to let the air in.

Offline starboardlight

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2006, 02:27:31 pm »
Last time I saw the movie on the big screen, it seemed to me that Jack had the car window open, rolled all the way down when he's driving north to the post-divorce scene. Hence the clear view out the window; - he does at any rate have that window all the way down as his car comes into view at Ennis's place. Then, as he drives back, it seems he's rolled the window up - that would be a realistic sort of reason for the blurry view and the "seen through tears" visual impact.

But it's hard to tell for sure - especially with the way he supports his elbow against (or on) the window sill in both scenes.

Anyway, the use of open window/closed window in those scenes would fit perfectly and poignantly  with the wind symbolism that has been discussed in this thread and also with the later scene where Ennis opens jack's window to let the air in.


oh man! the details of opened/closed windows is yet another thing to look for and analyze. I think you are on to something with this.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2006, 07:45:24 pm »
oh man! the details of opened/closed windows is yet another thing to look for and analyze. I think you are on to something with this.

Sure, it seems like a really important topic.  Thanks for noticing the truck window detail Mikaela!  Yet another detail that I've somehow missed during my many viewings.  The window issue seems to reach it's greatest moment of importance in Jack's room during the Lightning Flat scene.  It's just so sweet that it's Ennis who opens that window to let the air in.  It's almost like he's letting Jack enter the room a bit (even though I've noticed there's no indication of actual wind... the curtains don't flutter).  It's also been pointed out that it's only after the window is open that Ennis looks to the closet.  Also, I love that we see that window still open when Ennis walks out of the house with the paper bag.  Amazing. 
 :'(

It would be interesting to think of other window moments.  I think Ennis's window at the very end (the last shot) with the wind in the grass is also probably really important.

About Jack driving in general... and the wind that would come in his open truck window... I like to think of Jack's willingness to travel all the time as part of his "wind" association.  He seems content to drive for hundreds of miles to get to Ennis.  I love that he doesn't complain to Lureen about the driving... he seems annoyed that she would even question why he'd want to be in motion, be the one who travels.  It's like Jack as the wind is blowing back and forth over the plains/ earth (i.e. Ennis's symbol) and is truly happy about it.  I also love that we see him whistling and so happy in his truck as he's driving up to surprise Ennis in the post-divorce scene.
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Offline fernly

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2006, 08:30:49 pm »
A sequence of windows....and it was sitting there all this time....thank you, Mikaela!
How about this one -
  During Jack's Thanksgiving, all the windows are obscured by white curtains, except right behind him, where they're slightly parted to show sections of two large, closed windows, with no handles for opening them visible. What we see through them isn't a 'way out', it's just the patio and yard, enclosed by a tall solid fence.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #73 on: June 19, 2006, 10:54:12 pm »
My favorite window moment is the one Ennis gazes through after asking Alma Jr. if Kurt loves her.

And of course he does the same with the phone-booth window.

Oh! And the window of his apartment in the reunion scene.

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2006, 08:54:52 pm »
Dunno if some variant of this thought has been expressed yet, in these parts or elsewhere, but just the other day the following metaphor entered my mind: The wind is free, "blowing where it listeth", yet wherever it roams, the earth is always below it, ever within sight. Wherever life took Jack, Ennis was always there, in his thoughts and his heart. These two beautiful souls could not, nor would want to ever sever the exquisite union that bound them together.

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #75 on: June 21, 2006, 09:00:39 pm »
THat's beautiful, Scott, and so true. Lat, another window moment I love is when Ennis comes in the house while Alma is washing clothes in the sink and washes his hands, he takes a moment to look out the window. I think he is looking at the sky, and certainly know what he is thinking about!!
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #76 on: June 21, 2006, 10:13:46 pm »
Awww.... lovely ideas Lee and Scott!  Everything about this thread makes me happy and weepy all at the same time.
 :) :(
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #77 on: June 22, 2006, 12:03:16 am »
Lat, another window moment I love is when Ennis comes in the house while Alma is washing clothes in the sink and washes his hands, he takes a moment to look out the window. I think he is looking at the sky, and certainly know what he is thinking about!!

Oooh, good one, F-R! Is that the scene with the runny-nosed girls, or the one where Alma says "Ennis, do you know someone named Jack?"

And speaking of that postcard scene -- this may not be the thread for it, but what the hell -- I'm always amazed at how well Ennis keeps his composure when Alma says that. Just calmly finishes washing his hands, finally says "Maybe ... why?" Is he afraid to reveal anything untoward? Afraid to get his hopes up? At the very least, I think it's interesting that when telling Alma about his summer on Brokeback he obviously not only didn't give details but never even mentioned the name of the guy he worked with. What are your thoughts?

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #78 on: June 22, 2006, 12:08:55 am »
I was thinking about the runny nose scene, but he also looks out the window that other time, I think both he and Alma look out the window together. It's like a little ritual, wash hands, glance out window, dry hands on butt.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 12:14:55 am by latjoreme »
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2006, 12:19:07 am »
I was thinking about the runny nose scene, but he also looks out the window that other time, I think both he and Alma look out the window together. It's like a little ritual, wash hands, glance out window, dry hands on butt.

... head off to the back of the house to wring it out.

PS I actually did not modify your post above, F-R -- sorry! I wanted to hit "quote" but accidentally hit "modify" instead. The dangers of having those amazing moderator powers when you're posting late at night ...

Offline starboardlight

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2006, 12:23:29 am »
I was thinking about the runny nose scene, but he also looks out the window that other time, I think both he and Alma look out the window together. It's like a little ritual, wash hands, glance out window, dry hands on butt.

yep. three kitchen scenes (runny nose, postcard, and thanksgiving showdown), and in all three, Ennis takes a peak out the windows. As a matter of fact, all three scenes are very similar structurally. Alma is there at the corner, Ennis enters, look through the window, they have a brief exchange, and Ennis rushes out of the kitchen leaving Alma there.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2006, 12:27:01 am »
Good one, Nipith. I guess whenever Ennis is in any room near a window (or even when he's not, as on the tar-spreading crew), we should be alert for thinking-of-Jack signs!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #82 on: June 22, 2006, 09:07:19 am »
... head off to the back of the house to wring it out.

LOL!  Yup.  It's fun to see this "controversial" issue re-introduced. 
 ;) ::)

And, yes, Nipith, it's really interesting to note the similarities in those scenes!
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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #83 on: June 27, 2006, 01:49:17 am »
I come upon a thread here about the harmonica and I posted a response.  atz75 responded to my post by telling me about this thread and suggested that I re-post my comment over here... so here I am...



I think the harmonica continues the Jack as Wind metaphor.  It's a wind instrument that only plays when someone blows wind into it.  Jack plays "He Was a Friend of Mine" a couple of times -- foreshadowing his own death.

I think Ennis' comment about the harmonica breaking in two is symbolic of Jack's death and the fact that he was broken in two... half of his ashes in Texas and half of them in Lightning Flat.

I'm new here so if this has been mentioned before...

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #84 on: June 27, 2006, 02:59:05 am »
Oooh, good one, F-R! Is that the scene with the runny-nosed girls, or the one where Alma says "Ennis, do you know someone named Jack?"

And speaking of that postcard scene -- this may not be the thread for it, but what the hell -- I'm always amazed at how well Ennis keeps his composure when Alma says that. Just calmly finishes washing his hands, finally says "Maybe ... why?" Is he afraid to reveal anything untoward? Afraid to get his hopes up? At the very least, I think it's interesting that when telling Alma about his summer on Brokeback he obviously not only didn't give details but never even mentioned the name of the guy he worked with. What are your thoughts?


I think keeping ones composure in such situations is easier for the more quiet folks. It takes some seconds before he reacts, so he wins a short time to tkink about it. Surely not an unusual behavior for Ennis and Alma is used to it. And Ennis is used to not expressing his thoughts and emotions.
Another stategy to avoid an immediately answer is to pretend you didn't understand the question. So the other person has to repeat and you win a few seconds to prepare a nonchalant answer. That would have been my choice in this situation. But only if I hadn't a heart attack at the very moment  ;)

On Jack's name: maybe he mentioned Jack's name once or twice, but Alma either forgot it or didn't draw any connections to Brokeback summer because Jack is a fairly common name.
Hmmm, could be, but somehow I have the feeling that Ennis indeed never mentioned Jack's name. And what does that say about Ennis' and Alma's relationship before their marriage and during the first years? There's no way I would not have known the name, had Ennis been my husband. (probably I would have known the name of every single sheep two days after my husband's return  ;) )


Jack plays "He Was a Friend of Mine" a couple of times -- foreshadowing his own death

You sure? I have never heard this  :o


Quote
I think Ennis' comment about the harmonica breaking in two is symbolic of Jack's death and the fact that he was broken in two... half of his ashes in Texas and half of them in Lightning Flat.

Another sad one  :'(

Quote
I think the harmonica continues the Jack as Wind metaphor.  It's a wind instrument that only plays when someone blows wind into it
Yes, the harmonica fits good. The harmonica's tones are sometimes similar to the wind. It soughs (howls?) like the wind.

Offline starboardlight

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #85 on: June 27, 2006, 07:49:10 pm »
I come upon a thread here about the harmonica and I posted a response.  atz75 responded to my post by telling me about this thread and suggested that I re-post my comment over here... so here I am...



I think the harmonica continues the Jack as Wind metaphor.  It's a wind instrument that only plays when someone blows wind into it.  Jack plays "He Was a Friend of Mine" a couple of times -- foreshadowing his own death.

I think Ennis' comment about the harmonica breaking in two is symbolic of Jack's death and the fact that he was broken in two... half of his ashes in Texas and half of them in Lightning Flat.

I'm new here so if this has been mentioned before...

great observations Ruthless, and welcome to the board. I really love reading the connection with the wind to the harmonica.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #86 on: June 28, 2006, 12:17:23 am »
Heya ruthlesslyunsentimental !
Thanks for joining in here!  I think your observations are excellent.  And, it truly isn't an aspect of the wind metaphor that I'd thought about before. 

The broken part of the harmonica situation is interesting too.  It seems complicated because Jack says it got flattened (it doesn't actually break in two) and yet even though it's crushed, it still works and Jack is able to continue playing on it (even if it's not perfectly in tune anymore).  Ennis's ominous idea of the harmonica breaking in two definitely seems like foreshadowing about Jack's tragedy.  I like your idea about the divided ashes too.  But, I wonder if the idea of the flattened-yet-resilient harmonica is another kind of metaphor about Jack's ability to rebound and keep going through the course of the relationship even after disappointments and obstacles?  Even when the harmonica doesn't work correctly anymore Jack is so "loyal" to it, loves it and wants to play it, that he's not willing to give up on it.  I wonder if this is a metaphor for his feelings towards Ennis too.

All sorts of interesting avenues here.  And I do love that it all links back to the wind idea.
 :D

I wonder if Ennis's humming relates to Jack's harmonica-playing/ singing?
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ruthlesslyunsentimental

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #87 on: June 28, 2006, 02:15:00 am »
Heya ruthlesslyunsentimental !
Thanks for joining in here!  I think your observations are excellent.  And, it truly isn't an aspect of the wind metaphor that I'd thought about before. 

The broken part of the harmonica situation is interesting too.  It seems complicated because Jack says it got flattened (it doesn't actually break in two) and yet even though it's crushed, it still works and Jack is able to continue playing on it (even if it's not perfectly in tune anymore).  Ennis's ominous idea of the harmonica breaking in two definitely seems like foreshadowing about Jack's tragedy.  I like your idea about the divided ashes too.  But, I wonder if the idea of the flattened-yet-resilient harmonica is another kind of metaphor about Jack's ability to rebound and keep going through the course of the relationship even after disappointments and obstacles?  Even when the harmonica doesn't work correctly anymore Jack is so "loyal" to it, loves it and wants to play it, that he's not willing to give up on it.  I wonder if this is a metaphor for his feelings towards Ennis too.

All sorts of interesting avenues here.  And I do love that it all links back to the wind idea.
 :D

I wonder if Ennis's humming relates to Jack's harmonica-playing/ singing?


I love what you had to say here.  Let's say that the harmonica is a part of the wind metaphor.  What's the wind?  Jack.  Let's say it shows Jack's ability to rebound and keep going.  That seems to fit in with the notion that Jack's spirit continues on (rebounds, if you will), comforting Ennis, even after he has died -- the wind blowing through the field in the final shot, out Ennis' window.  This works for me.

Ennis' humming may be related... it's wind, after all.  But it also foreshadows Jack's death since he's humming "The Cowboy's Lament" ("Streets of Laredo") --

As I walked out in the streets of Laredo,
As I walked out in Laredo one day,
I spied a poor cowboy wrapped up in white linen,
Wrapped up in white linen as cold as the clay.

 :'(      :'(      :'(      :'(      :'(


And -- Jack's singing of "Water-Walking Jesus" foreshadows his death.  When does he meet the Lord?  On that final day.  What does he ask Him to do?  "Take me away."


 :'(      :'(      :'(      :'(      :'(


Gosh darn it!  If you make me cry one more time... I'll make you reach through your computer and give me one of the tender ear rubs that Jack and Ennis are famous for.


(Final thought: Everytime those boys sang or hummed or played the harmonica they foreshadowed Jack's death.  They really should have kept their mouths shut, huh?)

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #88 on: July 07, 2006, 03:15:09 pm »
Another wind thing...In the corner of Ennis's apartment is an interesting assortment of items: a vacuum cleaner (wind), a hot water heater (water), and an    :'(  iron on an ironing board. Doom for Jack!! 
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #89 on: July 08, 2006, 01:33:52 am »
Another wind thing...In the corner of Ennis's apartment is an interesting assortment of items: a vacuum cleaner (wind), a hot water heater (water), and an    :'(  iron on an ironing board. Doom for Jack!! 

Heya,

Wow!  Good observations!  I think background props like that have a lot of weight in this film.  I'd never thought about all those things as "societal" versions of the natural elements that keep recurring in the film.  Sad about the iron!  Maybe the iron is also a version of fire.  So, where's the earth?
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #90 on: July 08, 2006, 08:00:34 am »
And speaking of that postcard scene -- this may not be the thread for it, but what the hell -- I'm always amazed at how well Ennis keeps his composure when Alma says that. Just calmly finishes washing his hands, finally says "Maybe ... why?" Is he afraid to reveal anything untoward? Afraid to get his hopes up? At the very least, I think it's interesting that when telling Alma about his summer on Brokeback he obviously not only didn't give details but never even mentioned the name of the guy he worked with. What are your thoughts?

That struck me, too.  And I have a thought on why that is based on my own experience.  That "true" love I've mentioned on the PT board ultimately married someone else, too.  The first time I met her was when he brought her to my house (surprisingly, actually) for a party I was having after I was married.  At this point, they were just dating seriously.  She couldn't have been nicer and I couldn't help but like her.  The next time I came across them at a mutual friends' party, she was as cold as ice.  And he was, too.  I thought, "What the hell?  Did I say or do something to offend them last time?"  I couldn't for the life of me think of what that could have been - they left my house that night giving me a very warm good-bye and seemed to have had a really nice time.  I noticed over the next few months that they had broken up for a little while.  Came to find out from a mutual friend of hers that the reason for all that was that he had neglected to mention to her that he and I had ever dated, and we dated for about a year quite exclusively only about two years prior to his starting to see her.  The first time he had ever mentioned my name to her was when I had that party.  I guess a little while after that, that mutual friend said something to her like, "I'm surprised you guys went to that party - what with their history and all."  And all hell broke loose.

So Ennis didn't ever mention his name because - yeah - I think he thought that in doing that, he'd betray something in himself and Alma would realize there was more there than met the eye.  Not consciously.  And I think there's an element, too, of not wanting to share that time with him on the mountain with anyone else - of just sliding it a panel forward at a time to stoke his days.

Funny thing with my story - I did tell Ed about his and my history.  Not first thing, but once we were comfortably in our own groove and sharing everything.  They had been a couple for several months before this debacle transpired.  I've also come to find out that he tells everyone I broke up with him, when that couldn't be further from the truth in my mind.  Does he really see it that way?

Sigh.  Look at you all, see the love there that's sleeping... 
No more beans!

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #91 on: July 09, 2006, 12:44:46 pm »
Let's see, earth related things would be found in Jack's domain. One that I can think of off the top of my head is the big tractor that is used for earth moving, and other farm equipment that are the four-wheeled versions of four-footed animals. Others? I'm sure they are there!!
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #92 on: July 16, 2006, 03:48:23 pm »
Okay, two other Ennis-related things that are in Jack's domain... in the hallway where Jack seems to spend half his time there is a drawing or photo of a horse. Also prominently featured are closets, which seem to take up half the room.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #93 on: July 16, 2006, 03:56:16 pm »
Lee these are really good observations!  I really like the tractor idea.  It's interesting that Jack becomes a relatively wealthy man due to his skill at selling machines that move the earth (as you say).  Lureen says that he's the best and only combine salesman they have.   So, Jack has some skills when it comes to dealing with the earth, ie. Ennis.
 ;)

I'll have to think more about other examples of Ennis's symbols in Jack's "domain" (other than white hats).  It's definitely a good idea to flip the situation around here a bit.

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #94 on: July 17, 2006, 07:06:07 pm »
'Nother thing. In the corner of Jack and Lureen's room is a clothespole, and Ennis was described as "lean as a clothespole."
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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #95 on: August 06, 2006, 05:02:18 pm »
The concept of things related to Jack being in Ennis's domain and vice versa begins earlier while they were on the mountain. For instance there is a scene where Ennis is standing in a rushing stream washing a coffeepot. He looks up and sees Jack on the mountainside, so small he looks like an insect (according to the story). Cut to a scene of Jack overlooking the herd of sheep who are moving screen right, just the opposite of the water in the previous screen. Jack crouches down to aim and shoot at a coyote, which he misses. Both the sheep and the coyote are four-footed animals associated with Ennis, and perhaps the gun is too, being a volatile weapon, although some have theorized that the gun stands for their relationship. In a similar way, the coffeepot is associated with Jack, even though he supposedly is from Texas, and does not drink coffee, which is one of the inside jokes of the movie.
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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #96 on: August 06, 2006, 05:17:47 pm »
'nother example. Remember the scene where in the foreground we see Jack peeling potatoes and Ennis with a bucket of water, washing himself. Potatoes grow in the earth, so are associated with Ennis. What's more, Ennis has just "peeled" himself!   ;)
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #97 on: August 06, 2006, 10:21:40 pm »
Hey there Friend!
Thanks for reviving this old thread!  My favorite of all BetterMost metaphors... the wind idea.

Anyway, I like the potato idea.  And, I've never thought to notice the direction of the sheep movement vs. the flow of the stream.  That's very good.  It's interesting that Jack is unable to shoot a coyote just as Ennis feels unable to eat a sheep.  These are both earth-animals and furthermore the sheep (at least in my own funny little reading of BBM) are equated with Jack (and to a certain extent gay men in general).  Ennis is able to kill a coyote though.  He tells Jack that he killed that one coyote and then we see another dead coyote all strung up by the herd after TS1 and before the boys' chat on the hillside.  So, why is Ennis able to kill a coyote and not Jack?
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #98 on: August 07, 2006, 12:38:58 am »
So, why is Ennis able to kill a coyote and not Jack?

For one thing, I think it's because Ennis is supposed to be the more skilled cowboy. For another, it may symbolize whose decisions prevail in their relationship. Jack misses the coyote, gets thrown by his horse, never gets Ennis to settle down with him.


Offline fernly

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #99 on: August 07, 2006, 02:21:26 am »
Quote
For one thing, I think it's because Ennis is supposed to be the more skilled cowboy. For another, it may symbolize whose decisions prevail in their relationship. Jack misses the coyote, gets thrown by his horse, never gets Ennis to settle down with him.

I wonder a little about Ennis being the more skilled. Ennis gets thrown off his horse, too. And gets injured. When Jack gets thrown he never mentions it until days(?) later and then only says his harmonica got flattened, nothing about any hurt to himself. (though I have wondered too if the slow and careful way Jake sits down at the beginning of their 'rodeo cowboy' scene could have been his way of showing that Jack had fallen shortly before that).

Years later, Ennis tells Jenny that he only stayed on that saddle bronc for three seconds, while Jack had ridden bulls (an even more demanding and dangerous event), and, regardless of what those two customers said, he had done more than tried to ride them. Jack wouldn't have earned the two or three thousand dollars (film or story amounts) without having some success at it.

Clearly, though, Ennis is a better shot than Jack. Symbolically, what could that imply? Maybe one interpretation, least as far the coyotes are concerned, could tie back to the sign on Aguirre's trailer that trespassers will be shot, and survivors will be shot again.
The coyotes are certainly trespassers far as sheepherders are concerned, so Ennis shoots 'em, including the one that survived Jack's attempt.
Then there's Ennis' wedding, where we hear, not "dearly beloved", or (fantasy scene material - "if anyone can show cause why..."), no, we hear part of the Lord's prayer - "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
So who's the trespasser here, according to Ennis? (Since that voice-over starts while Ennis is kneeling in the alley, I think we can safely read that concern over trespass as being at least somewhat reflective of his thoughts.)

With good reason, Ennis sees a lot of dangers in the world and tries his best to protect those he feels responsible for and loves, and also himself, from those dangers.
If the trespasser(danger) is a coyote, that's comparatively easy for Ennis to deal with. If it's something you can't shoot, though, like awful fathers, or a condemning society, Jack, who can't shoot coyotes, proves himself more versatile (pun absolutely intended from the the name of the combine Jack is driving with Bobby) at dealing with those threats that "trespass against us."

But why can't Jack shoot coyotes? Maybe to show that he can't deal with the dangers to them in a way that would make Ennis feel safe.
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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #100 on: August 07, 2006, 02:58:03 am »
Very interesting observations, Amanda and Fernly.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #101 on: August 07, 2006, 10:46:22 am »
When Jack gets thrown he never mentions it until days(?) later and then only says his harmonica got flattened, nothing about any hurt to himself.

That's true. Course, he never walked into the camp bleeding, either.

Quote
Years later, Ennis tells Jenny that he only stayed on that saddle bronc for three seconds, while Jack had ridden bulls (an even more demanding and dangerous event), and, regardless of what those two customers said, he had done more than tried to ride them.

Good point.

Quote
Clearly, though, Ennis is a better shot than Jack. Symbolically, what could that imply? Maybe one interpretation, least as far the coyotes are concerned, could tie back to the sign on Aguirre's trailer that trespassers will be shot, and survivors will be shot again.

That's really interesting, Fernly. I never even connected the "trespassers" in the sign with the "trespasses" in the wedding. I like your interpretation.

I always thought of trespasses, in the wedding/Lord's prayer context, as meaning breaking the "rules" -- i.e., having sex with a man. And in that sense, the sign could read:

Tresspassers (Jack) will be shot (killed). Survivors (Ennis) will be shot again (left alone and grieving).

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #102 on: August 07, 2006, 10:52:55 am »
Shit, that's hard. But absolutely true. Good observations!
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #103 on: August 07, 2006, 08:07:05 pm »
Yup, fernly, that was one excellent post.
 8)
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Offline Andrew

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #104 on: August 29, 2006, 09:38:51 pm »
...Jack Wind, Ennis Earth...

"Why do I love" You, Sir?
Because --
The Wind does not require the Grass
To answer -- Wherefore when He pass
She cannot keep Her place.

Because He Knows -- and
Do not You --
And We know not --
Enough for Us
The Wisdom it be so --

The Lightning -- never asked an Eye
Wherefore it shut -- when He was by --
Because He knows it cannot speak --
And reasons not contained --
-- Of Talk --
There be -- preferred by Daintier Folk --

The Sunrise -- Sir -- compelleth Me --
Because He's Sunrise -- and I see --
Therefore -- Then --
I love Thee --


                                   Emily Dickinson


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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #105 on: September 25, 2006, 01:07:43 pm »
Watching the movie again after a month away from it, I was struck by the scene where Jack, on the left, is peeling potatoes in the foreground while Ennis, naked and blurry in the background, is washing. The smoke from Jack's cigarette swirls in front of Ennis as Jack exhales forcefully, and the smoke obscures Ennis even more, just as we hear the sound of the water as Ennis swishes his washrag in it and uses it to wash "everything he can reach."
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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #106 on: September 26, 2006, 11:52:56 pm »
A "mirror" of this is when Ennis's truck is seen travelling toward the miserable little ranch house and Alma, swathed in a veil of mist, during the early years of their marriage.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #107 on: October 20, 2006, 09:12:35 pm »
Hey Bud,

It's fun to see this thread here at home with the other "deep analysis" threads.

 :D
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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #108 on: October 21, 2006, 10:07:33 am »
I like that "deep analysis." For some time I've thought of you and the other posters on this forum as my sister vestal virgins of Brokeback, either that or the Banditas, according to my mood! Glad Jack and his wind blew in here!!
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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #109 on: November 27, 2006, 10:24:44 pm »
In addition to Jack and the wind, there are quite a few references in the story and movie to Jack and nautical things. For one, there is a lamp with an anchor on the wall of his room. Also, Jack is described as having a sweet salty smell about him, as of the ocean.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #110 on: November 29, 2006, 02:25:10 am »
Heya Lee,

Well I wonder if the nautical associations (which I do agree seem to come up around Jack a lot) may have to do with his connection to Ennis. I seem to remember some old discussion somewhere about the anchor on Jack's wall maybe being a reference to Del Mar (the sea and all the references to water and islands that Ennis's name evokes).  And Ennis is uniquely qualified to know all about how Jack smells.
 :o :)
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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #111 on: November 29, 2006, 07:27:11 am »
Heya Lee,

Well I wonder if the nautical associations (which I do agree seem to come up around Jack a lot) may have to do with his connection to Ennis. I seem to remember some old discussion somewhere about the anchor on Jack's wall maybe being a reference to Del Mar (the sea and all the references to water and islands that Ennis's name evokes).  And Ennis is uniquely qualified to know all about how Jack smells.
 :o :)

I always wondered about that anchor, but never drew a connection to 'Del Mar'. So thanks for pointing it out.
What pops into my mind, thinking of Jack and nautical associations, is Jack's driving to Wyoming and back. Back and forth like the tides.

Here's the anchor. It is out of place (at a lonseome ranch in Wyoming) and therefore demonstrative.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2006, 07:44:52 am by Penthesilea »

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #112 on: December 01, 2006, 05:22:43 pm »
Also, the covered wagon, of which there is a toy one on Jack's bureau, is often called a "prairie schooner."
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #113 on: December 01, 2006, 11:51:46 pm »
I always wondered about that anchor, but never drew a connection to 'Del Mar'. So thanks for pointing it out.
What pops into my mind, thinking of Jack and nautical associations, is Jack's driving to Wyoming and back. Back and forth like the tides.

I like that you brought up the idea of Jack's movements back and forth between Wyoming and Texas being like water.  It's come up in beautiful discussions about the wind metaphor itself (probably buried somewhere here on this big thread)... that he's like wind sweeping across the plains... rushing over the terrain/ covering a lot of terrain (terrain/ Earth= Ennis).  It's interesting how Ennis's name evokes both water (Mar) and land/ earth (island).
« Last Edit: December 02, 2006, 12:26:02 am by atz75 »
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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #114 on: December 02, 2006, 12:30:24 am »
Wow Bud,
Thanks for posting that pic (blurry or not)... It's a great moment to have thought of in terms of this discussion.

Yeah... those boots in Jack's closet are very rarely discussed...  Interesting.  They get overshadowed so quickly by the shirts.  It's interesting too, that the only cowboy hat in the Twist house is not in Jack's room, but is the one hanging on the hook while Ennis is sitting at the table with Mr. and Mrs. Twist. (Am I correct in thinking this... or am I forgetting a detail or two?).
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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #115 on: December 16, 2006, 09:30:15 pm »
Hi Buds, I just read this (below) and knew I wanted it for this wonderful thread.  How's this for validation that we are on the right track and not overanalyzing:

The sounds of the American West were also vital for establishing the desired emotional backdrop for this story. “I would say that the critical sound component of the movie for Ang was wind,” says supervising sound editor Eugene Gearty, who also acted as sound designer, sound editor, and re-recording mixer on the film. “It was the most interesting, dramatic, and affecting sound that we worked with throughout the film. The juxtapositions in this film - from the intimacy of two people to the vastness of the natural landscape - were emphasized by the wind. We wanted to tell this story through the power of the wind - through nature's forces.”

http://www.avid.com/profiles/051219_brokeback_filmcomposer.asp?featureID=945&marketID

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #116 on: February 19, 2007, 11:34:56 am »
Jack as the wind is not only in the movie, but also in the story. I'm sure this has already been mentioned at some point of this 8 pages long thread.

But what stuck me today is how similar Jack enters the scene in both, story and movie.
In the movie, Ennis is already at Aguirre's trailer. Then the wind refreshs and announces Jack's arrival.

In the prologue of the story, it's very similar: Ennis is already in his trailer. And even though Jack is dead at this point, he enters the story with the very first sentence: Ennis Del Mar wakes before five, wind rocking the trailer, hissing in around the aluminum door and window frames.

The next sentence even emphasizes his presence: The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft.

Jack is there, is with Ennis and is in the story even before he is introduced to the reader by name.

Somehow I find this thought oddly comforting: Wyoming is a very windy edge of the world. Jack will always be with Ennis.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #117 on: February 20, 2007, 09:00:04 pm »
Elle, thanks (really rather belatedly, hunh?  ::) ;D ) for that quotation.  In response to both your post and Penthesilea's... I think you're both right in pointing out how much evidence there is in the filmming and the way the story is written to support the idea of this metaphor of Jack and the wind.  While I believe that there's no way to give a symbol any one singular meaning (just because a symbol can be so open to personal interpretation), I also think that this "Jack= wind" idea is built up to be pretty readily legible to the viewer/reader.  I think that this symbol is like an anchor or a major clue that can lead you to see a lot of the other, perhaps more subtle nature symbols that we've all discussed all over the place.  I think by having Aguirre essentially articulate the Jack and the wind metaphor when he says "look what the wind blew in" (in combination with the things that you've pointed out Penthesilea) we're really meant to sit up and take notice.

Jack will always be with Ennis.

Yup, I think this is the main point of this wind metaphor.  By the time Jack dies, I wonder too if the wind functions as both a happy thing (a reminder of Jack's presence) and a sad thing (a constant reminder of Ennis's regret).  I know I've said this before, but I always feel that BBM becomes ever so slightly spooky once Jack dies... especially in the Lightning Flat scene.  He seems to be not only the wind but even more simply - the air - in his childhood bedroom (once the window is opened) that somehow nudges Ennis to look in the closet.  The wind I think functions a little bit like a ghost at times. Which brings us right around to Casey's classical allusions thread topic.
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Offline fernly

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #118 on: February 20, 2007, 11:55:13 pm »
Quote from: atz75
I wonder too if the wind functions as both a happy thing (a reminder of Jack's presence) and a sad thing (a constant reminder of Ennis's regret). 

To comment on just one point in many intriguing posts...
The story has a line that establishes this view of the wind as both happy and sad while they are still up on Brokeback - "There were only the two of them on the mountain flying in the euphoric, bitter air.."
And though this description occurs in 'real' time before Ennis has lost Jack (when, theoretically, the wind perhaps 'should' just be euphoric), in 'story' time, he already is grieving, since the prologue has established the loss. And even in 'real' time, they've already set their separation in motion with the "one-shot thing" exchange.

If this has been brought up before, I apologize...I agree that Jack is certainly symbolized by the wind, so....when he laments "like I was supposed to control the weather", then is what Jack is himself, something that he feels he can't control?
on the mountain flying in the euphoric, bitter air

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #119 on: February 21, 2007, 01:14:20 am »
The story has a line that establishes this view of the wind as both happy and sad while they are still up on Brokeback - "There were only the two of them on the mountain flying in the euphoric, bitter air.."

Ooooo fernly, this is a most excellent phrase to point out!  You're right!  What a great little description of the air having simultaneously positive and negative aspects.  A bit of yin and yang there too (with simultaneous opposites or contrasts).

And, I think you're also right to question what Jack is bemoaning when he complains about controlling the weather.  With his clumsiness and awkwardness (which is also sometimes graceful and charming) he probably did feel a bit like he was out of control sometimes.  He couldn't hold his gun steady to hunt the coyote, or use the can opener without spilling, etc.  So, these are little things that demonstrate a sense of being a bit out of control... But, maybe this is a very early and Jack-version of Ennis's later "no reins on this one." 
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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #120 on: April 29, 2007, 02:23:06 pm »
I'm so glad this thread is being featured now. Do you realize that Amanda's first post was on May 1, 2006? I would like to hereby petition our high priestess to proclaim May 1 "Jack and the Wind Day." 

The wind figures in an indirect way in the Dozy Embrace, too: "Stars bit through the wavy heat layers above the fire." That master storyteller Annie Proulx manages to portend Jack's violent death, his associateion with the heavens, his passionate relationship with the fiery Ennis, and the vibrations/waves/wind connection, all in 10 perfect words!!
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #121 on: April 29, 2007, 05:55:23 pm »
I'm so glad this thread is being featured now. Do you realize that Amanda's first post was on May 1, 2006? I would like to hereby petition our high priestess to proclaim May 1 "Jack and the Wind Day." 

The wind figures in an indirect way in the Dozy Embrace, too: "Stars bit through the wavy heat layers above the fire." That master storyteller Annie Proulx manages to portend Jack's violent death, his associateion with the heavens, his passionate relationship with the fiery Ennis, and the vibrations/waves/wind connection, all in 10 perfect words!!


Whoo-eee!  Thanks Bud!  Very nice post.  I'm so happy to see the highlight for this great old thread (and really great old topic that pre-dates this thread... it had an ancestor back at imdb)!

I'm much approve of the suggestion of making May 1 "Jack and the Wind day".

The wind is just such a seemingly clear-cut nature element associated with Jack and it certainly figures into many of the more "romantic" or poignant moments of the film as well as the story.  Am I correct in remembering that in the film there is sort of the sound of the wind as the scene transitions from the lake scene to the flashback/ dozy embrace?   I'd run and check myself... but I'm on a Brokeback-fast until the BBQ!  I don't want to watch it again until the group screening there.

And, one of my favorite aspects of the wind idea is how it seems to become a really important element following Jack's death.
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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #122 on: April 29, 2007, 10:21:17 pm »
Speaking of the wind, did you realize that Jack's favorite instrument is the harmonica, which is played by blowing your breath or wind back and forth through the mouthpiece? By the way, my musical friends tell me that Jack's harmonica was in the key of D, for death of course. And, since the harmonica was flattened when that mare threw him, maybe it ended up being in the key of D flat! That reminds me, another reference to the wind was the way Jack ostensibly died, according to Lureen. He was pumping up a flat tire, that is, pumping air into it. And supposedly the tire exploded from the iron wheel and hit him in the face, breaking his jaw. So, that is a second flat, and a second reference to wind. AND a second reference to a wily and devious female. AND a second reference to the area of the mouth. All should spell danger with a D for the  man from Lightning Flat.

I better stop now...I am starting to hyperventilate!!

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #123 on: April 29, 2007, 10:49:17 pm »
I better stop now...I am starting to hyperventilate!!

 :laugh: Hey Bud, thanks for the observation-packed post!   I love the detail of the harmonica!  I hadn't thought much about the implications of blowing up a tire also being related to air and wind.  Good call. 

Hyperventilating seems like a very appropriate side-effect to dealing with the topic of the wind.  Take a deep breath!  ;D

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #124 on: April 29, 2007, 11:41:19 pm »
Yes'm.

To calm me down and anybody else who may be hyperventilating right now, here is a picture of the Wind River canyon which I had the opportunity to see on my way home from Bay City, Michigan back in February (seems like yesterday!)

The Wind Rivers were a series of mountain ranges, part of the Rocky Mountains, that Jack and Ennis visited during their 20 years together (okay, I guess it was just 16 years, due to Jack's detour into Wyoming). It is an amazingly beautiful area with an astounding hourglass canyon that squeezes to a narrow opening and then opens out again into an incredible vista. It is the most sublimely beautiful route you could possibly take to Yellowstone National Park altho you can also veer east to the Bighorns (or Big Horns) and Brokenback Mountain!



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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #125 on: April 29, 2007, 11:47:59 pm »
What a gorgeous photo!  Thanks for posting it Lee!
 :o :D

It occurs to me to mention that one of the reasons I love the wind topic so much is that it's like a key to noticing other nature metaphors that might be in play in the film/ story.  The wind seems like the easiest to recognize (it's made the most explicit), so it helps point to more subtle things like the "earth" relating to Ennis.  Etc.
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Offline Meryl

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #126 on: April 30, 2007, 01:37:48 am »




In Honor of the Classic "Jack and the Wind" Thread

Started by atz75 one year ago

May 1, 2007

Shall Be Designated

JACK AND THE WIND DAY


YEEHAW

Ich bin ein Brokie...

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #127 on: April 30, 2007, 12:03:58 pm »




In Honor of the Classic "Jack and the Wind" Thread

Started by atz75 one year ago

May 1, 2007

Shall Be Designated

JACK AND THE WIND DAY


YEEHAW

What a great picture of smilin Jack!
This is a great thread! I love all the symbolisms y'all are pointing out. This movie/story just keeps getting better and better!
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #128 on: April 30, 2007, 12:59:58 pm »
Great idea for May 1st

Interesting Lee that his music is produced by his breath through the harmonica.

Also interesting that his death (according to Lureen - and Annie Proulx did call it an accident in the novella) was caused by the tire essentially knocking the wind out of him and causing him to drown in his own blood while looking up.

I'll wear something blue around my neck tomorrow on Jack and the Wind Day.


Offline loneleeb3

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #129 on: April 30, 2007, 01:11:14 pm »
Great idea for May 1st



That picture is so beautiful it takes my breath away! :o
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

Offline Toast

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #130 on: April 30, 2007, 01:22:42 pm »
The Wind Rivers were a series of mountain ranges, part of the Rocky Mountains,

Boneless Blue, Lee
That picture could make you hyperventilate by itself
Gorgeous pic.
You lucky girl, being able to scoot around Brokeback territory.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #131 on: April 30, 2007, 09:47:33 pm »




In Honor of the Classic "Jack and the Wind" Thread

Started by atz75 one year ago

May 1, 2007

Shall Be Designated

JACK AND THE WIND DAY


YEEHAW




  THANK YOU HIGH PRIESTESS!!
what a Wonderful Gesture!!






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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #132 on: April 30, 2007, 09:49:35 pm »
Great idea for May 1st

Interesting Lee that his music is produced by his breath through the harmonica.

Also interesting that his death (according to Lureen - and Annie Proulx did call it an accident in the novella) was caused by the tire essentially knocking the wind out of him and causing him to drown in his own blood while looking up.

I'll wear something blue around my neck tomorrow on Jack and the Wind Day.


Hey Toast, Bud!!  I like your suggestion.  I'll make a point of wearing blue and black tomorrow.  :)
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Offline loneleeb3

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #133 on: April 30, 2007, 09:52:05 pm »
Me too! ;D
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

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moremojo

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #134 on: April 30, 2007, 11:15:36 pm »
Hey Toast, Bud!!  I like your suggestion.  I'll make a point of wearing blue and black tomorrow.  :)
Oh drat! I'm wearing blue and black today! I guess this is one of those rare times I'm fashionably early. ;D

Offline nic

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #135 on: May 01, 2007, 06:08:44 am »
Here's to "Jack & the Wind" day!  A great idea.  It's a lovely day spring day here with just the faintest breeze ruffling the leaves, now & then picking up enough to sway the branches of the trees I can see from my window - perfect for staring at whilst cotemplating Jack.  The breeze is also dislodging some blossoms from those trees that have it & that makes me think of Jack's departure from this world  :'(

Anyway, who's wearing blue & black?
Old Brokeback got us good and it sure ain't over

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #136 on: May 01, 2007, 08:37:18 am »
We are having a very rainy day here today.
Should rain tomorrow too.
Cleaning up all the grit and dirt from the winter, I hope.

Good day to wear my jeans - blue of course.
and a blue hanky around my neck.
Nice day to skulk around the pup tent while Ennis carves in the big tent.

View the Dozy Embrace- with "Spiritual", an instrumental piece by Charlie Haden and Pat Metheney.  (Thanks for finding this Paul.)

Experience Jack and the Wind Day in your own way.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #137 on: May 01, 2007, 09:29:16 am »

Happy JACK and the WIND Day from the Windy City!


            P.S. Something -- or someone -- blew the top off my front porch light last night!





Offline loneleeb3

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #138 on: May 01, 2007, 09:37:32 am »
I'm wearing Blue but didn't have any black! :-\

We should re-make that Patrick Swazey song "She's like the wind" to "He's like the wind"

He's Like The Wind
by Patrick Swayze
album: 
He's like the wind,
Through my tree
He rides the night
Next to me

He leads me through moonlight
Only to burn me with the sun
He's taken my heart
He doesn't know what He's done

Chorus:
To feel his breath on my face
His body close to me
Can't look in his eyes
He's out of my league
Just a fool to believe
I have anything He needs
He's like the wind

I look in the mirror
And all I see
Is a young old man
With only a dream
Am I just fooling myself
That he'll stop the pain?
Living without him
I'd go insane

Chorus:
Feel his breath on my face
His body close to me
Can't look in his eyes
He's out of my league
Just a fool to believe
I have anything he needs
He's like the wind

Chorus:
Feel your breath on my face
Your body close to me
Can't look in your eyes
You're out of my league

Just a fool to believe
(Just a fool to believe)*{GIRL}
He's like the wind

(Just a fool to believe)
Just a fool to believe
(He's like the wind)

Just a fool to believe
(Just a fool to believe)
He's like the wind

(Just a fool to believe)
Just a fool to believe
He's like the wind........

Just a fool,
He's like the wind

He's like the wind
Just a fool,
He's like the wind
Just a fool.
 

"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

moremojo

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #139 on: May 01, 2007, 05:07:16 pm »
Anyway, who's wearing blue & black?
Hey, I just realized that, without having put any thought into it, I am wearing blue and gray today! Is that close enough? ;)

Actually, the gray is quite fitting for the drizzly overcast weather we are having on this Jack day here in central Texas. Yea verily, the whole world weeps for Jack. :-\

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #140 on: May 01, 2007, 09:39:00 pm »
 :D

I'm here to report that I very consciously wore a pure black suit to work today with a sky blue shirt underneath!  The best part is that the blue shirt has white cuffs and a white collar... so I snuck the black and white/ yin and yang idea in at the same time!

 :D 8)
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #141 on: May 01, 2007, 10:32:32 pm »
 :laugh:  I love how we are all reporting our outfits!

OK, here's mine: When I got dressed today I knew I was going to wear jeans (cropped, because it was about 80). (I dress casually because I work out of my home, for those who don't know.) So then I wondered ... what shirt? And it was like a V-8 forehead slapping moment. A black T-shirt, of course!

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #142 on: May 01, 2007, 11:04:21 pm »
Fashion Report

Toast in jeans as predicted, blue hanky around the neck, and my white Gorilla Glue T-Shirt.  oh yes, blue checked boxers too.

It was a great (but rainy) Jack and the Wind day for me.
My jacket was blue and black and white.

Muah!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #143 on: May 01, 2007, 11:14:34 pm »
We had a first-class thunderstorm and even some tornado warnings in the area today!  So, I guess this was weather worthy of Lighnting Flat... or of a stormy day on Brokeback.



the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #144 on: May 02, 2007, 08:58:14 am »
Yesterday I took my daughter to her horseback riding lessons. Where the stables are is a national park and I went walking on a nature trail. It was warm and sunny. I walked the trail till I came to a turn off and followed that for awhile. I came to a board walk that ended in a deck over a pond created by a beaver dam. There were reeds and swamp grass all around. As I sat there looking over the water and thinking suddenly the wind picked up. The reeds were dancing and the wind was whispering through the tall grass. I couldn't help thinking of our Jack. There had really been no wind that day until I was alone there in the woods with my thoughts. It was then my thoughts turned to Jack and I couldn't help but shed a tear. I know he's not a real person but he has and Ennis have had such an impact on my life. I am so glad I have come to know them and love them and learn from them.
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #145 on: May 02, 2007, 09:30:01 am »
Thank you for that beautiful post, Lee. Last night I was taking a picture of the full moon and the breeze brushed through the pine trees gently and brought me their vanilla smell. I sensed the spirit of Jack most powerfully!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline serious crayons

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #146 on: May 02, 2007, 10:10:41 am »
the breeze brushed through the pine trees gently and brought me their vanilla smell

Was it a sweet salty stink?

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #147 on: May 02, 2007, 04:36:19 pm »
Was it a sweet salty stink?


Yes without the salty part. (I'm Ennis's salt shaker, so I can supply that part!)

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline miniangel

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #148 on: May 03, 2007, 07:12:15 am »
Having only just signed on I've only just read this thread but here I am, quite accidentally wearing blue and black and having been thinking about Jack and the wind ever since it started blowing a gale a day or two back. I woke this morning to rain and twigs and stuff hitting the roof with some force, and a whole new way of looking at the last camping trip spewing forth from my brain so I had to jump up and write it out. I felt that listening to the wind all night had inspired me. I could just be nuts, of course.

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #149 on: May 03, 2007, 07:23:24 am »
Having only just signed on I've only just read this thread but here I am, quite accidentally wearing blue and black and having been thinking about Jack and the wind ever since it started blowing a gale a day or two back. I woke this morning to rain and twigs and stuff hitting the roof with some force, and a whole new way of looking at the last camping trip spewing forth from my brain so I had to jump up and write it out. I felt that listening to the wind all night had inspired me. I could just be nuts, of course.

Well Howdy and Welcome! If you're nuts your in good company here! ;D
I watched the movie again last night. I really paid attention to the wind and Wow, what a big part it plays in the story.
I was blown away! LOL (pun intended) ;D
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

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Offline miniangel

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #150 on: May 03, 2007, 07:25:28 am »
The wind is the first sound you hear in the film, as I guess everyone has noticed.

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #151 on: May 03, 2007, 12:56:31 pm »
Welcome to miniangel! I think you will be so comfy here at BetterMost lying in the blue columbine that you'll be inspired to unfold and stretch your wings and even fly a little!!

Funny that everyone's talking about black and blue! Makes me think, of course, of the black and blue eagle bar where Ennis had a dirty fight on Thanksgiving nite. As well as Jack's bruise from where Ennis hit him.  :'(

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #152 on: May 03, 2007, 01:07:57 pm »
Quote
As well as Jack's bruise from where Ennis hit him. 
Thats what It made me think of too! :(
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #153 on: May 03, 2007, 10:10:33 pm »
Will someone please tell Jack's Wind that its special day is over???

 :P
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #154 on: May 03, 2007, 10:13:45 pm »
Will someone please tell Jack's Wind that its special day is over???

 :P

Hee Hee!
You know our Jack, he just don't know when to quit! ;D
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #155 on: May 05, 2007, 03:58:06 pm »
He wished he knew how to quit us, but I'm so glad he never learned how!!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #156 on: May 05, 2007, 04:04:39 pm »
He wished he knew how to quit us, but I'm so glad he never learned how!!

Friend, you and me both! :)
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #157 on: May 14, 2007, 08:31:37 am »
In my Wyoming travel guide I found a quote which reminded me so much of Jack and the wind that I wanted to share it with you.
It's from Buffalo Bill Cody. It was spoken in defense of Wyoming, when a friend complained of the wind:

"You know where those winds come from? Well, this country up here is so close to paradise you can feel the breezes from heaven. That wind comes from the angels' wings. When they flap their wings the wind comes right down this valley."

This quote brings together Jack and the wind and the picture of Jack as the ministering angel  :D. How fitting it is for BBM.

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #158 on: May 14, 2007, 09:24:12 am »
"You know where those winds come from? Well, this country up here is so close to paradise you can feel the breezes from heaven. That wind comes from the angels' wings. When they flap their wings the wind comes right down this valley."

This quote brings together Jack and the wind and the picture of Jack as the ministering angel  :D. How fitting it is for BBM.

That is so beautiful and true!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Meryl

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #159 on: May 14, 2007, 12:32:07 pm »
"You know where those winds come from? Well, this country up here is so close to paradise you can feel the breezes from heaven. That wind comes from the angels' wings. When they flap their wings the wind comes right down this valley."

This quote brings together Jack and the wind and the picture of Jack as the ministering angel  :D. How fitting it is for BBM.

And how fitting as a caption for one of my favorite photo manips!  8)

Ich bin ein Brokie...

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #160 on: May 14, 2007, 12:52:04 pm »
And how fitting as a caption for one of my favorite photo manips!  8)



That is so COOL!
The only thing missing is his cowboy hat! ;D
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

Offline miniangel

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #161 on: July 13, 2007, 12:30:35 am »
I've only just returned to Bettermost, having met some of you lovely people in person - and what a great time that was - only to find that delicious photo. I feel a new avatar coming on.....

Offline Meryl

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #162 on: July 13, 2007, 11:12:15 am »
Hi miniangel!  That avatar would be terrific for you.  I'm looking forward to seeing it around a lot here.  ;D  8)
Ich bin ein Brokie...

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #163 on: July 13, 2007, 11:24:47 am »
That is so COOL!
The only thing missing is his cowboy hat! ;D

He didn't have his cowboy hat when he was in the stream, beating on the shirt with a stick. And he didn't have his hat when Ennis knocked it off right before the reunion kiss. So, Jack without his cowboy hat is s'alright with me.

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #164 on: July 13, 2007, 11:32:26 am »
He didn't have his cowboy hat when he was in the stream, beating on the shirt with a stick. And he didn't have his hat when Ennis knocked it off right before the reunion kiss. So, Jack without his cowboy hat is s'alright with me.


Well, I ain't complainin mind ya!  ;D
Just sayin..
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #165 on: July 13, 2007, 11:33:28 am »
He didn't have his cowboy hat when he was in the stream, beating on the shirt with a stick. And he didn't have his hat when Ennis knocked it off right before the reunion kiss. So, Jack without his cowboy hat is s'alright with me.
Obviously, he also couldn't have had it on when he was born, and probably didn't have it on when he died. Jack Twist was a role that not only Jake Gyllenhaal played, but also Jack Twist himself. When we return to the ineffable after our earthly demise, our roles come off of us just like discarded costumes.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #166 on: July 13, 2007, 11:35:55 am »
Welcome back to BetterMost miniangel!

That is a pretty cool photo indeed and definitely seems like a nice visual relationship to the wind topic.  I think it would look sort of odd if he was wearing a cowboy hat in this context.  So, I agree with Lee that Jack without a hat is just fine in some circumstances.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #167 on: August 01, 2007, 08:05:20 am »
Another connection to the wind...

A bit of background information, a more earthly one, not a symbolic one - but interesting nonetheless:

Triggered by a post by Adam in the Social Events Forum, I visited the findingbrokeback site once more and there found a link to a site called peakfinder.com.

The mountain we see in the postcard Ennis has at his closet door, next to The Shirts, is Mount Lougheed.
What connects this fact with the wind topic is the following: Mount Lougheed formerly was named 'Wind Mountain' and today the peak south of Mount Lougheed is named Wind Mountain and the steep peak to the right is called Windtower. And it's located in the Wind River Valley (Alberta).
So the mountain(s) who represent Brokeback Mountain in the postcard are closely connected to the wind.

How fitting.


(BTW more Wind names: Riverton lies in the Wind River Mountains Country (WY) and in the Winde River Indian Reservation, named after the Wind River that runs through it.)


If you want to read the whole story about Wind Mountain/ Mount Lougheed and Windtower, it's here:

http://www.peakfinder.com/showpeakbyid.asp?MtnId=558

And here: http://www.rmbooks.com//Peakfinder/peakfinder.asp?PeakName=Windtower


Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #168 on: August 06, 2007, 11:29:37 am »
Hi Chrissi!

Thanks!  That's amazing information.  The imagery associated with this film/ story is certainly multi-layered
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Offline miniangel

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #169 on: August 10, 2007, 12:09:15 am »
Chrissie, that's fabulous! Ennis as water and Jack as wind makes it kind of obvious why they went into the Wind Rivers time and again, and why Ennis lived in Riverton on the Wind River.

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #170 on: August 10, 2007, 12:17:08 am »
I posted a large picture of the Wind River Range here:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,3088.msg200257.html#msg200257

and I also posted an article today about Ang Lee's travels thru the Wind River Canyon while researching the story:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,12399.msg235071.html#msg235071

Coincidence? Maybe. Or maybe we are all just craving a puff of wind during the dog days of summer!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #171 on: August 10, 2007, 06:00:04 am »
I posted a large picture of the Wind River Range here:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,3088.msg200257.html#msg200257

and I also posted an article today about Ang Lee's travels thru the Wind River Canyon while researching the story:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,12399.msg235071.html#msg235071

Coincidence? Maybe. Or maybe we are all just craving a puff of wind during the dog days of summer!



Thanks Lee for both links. Great photo and what a nice article.

Coincidence? - Well, some people say there are no coincidences  ;D.
I don't know. But it's at least intriguing.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #172 on: November 17, 2007, 08:40:19 pm »

I just finished watching BBM tonight and noticed something interesting in two crucial "wind" scenes.  I don't recall if this has come up previously in this thread (forgive me if it has).

In the "morning after" scene following TS1 immediately after Jack says "see you for supper" the wind kicks up (this I know we've discussed in the past).  But the thing that really struck me this time, is that the wind actually comes from behind his back and towards Ennis.  The only effect this wind seems to have on Jack himself is that it ruffles the collar on his coat slightly.  The wind almost seems to follow or line-up with his gaze looking at Ennis.

This is striking, primarily, because it happens again and in a more dramatic/ noticeable way when Ennis and Jack part ways at the end of the '63 summer.  When they're both standing next to Jack's old truck... the wind is really whipping... and again it's essentially coming from Jack's direction and towards Ennis.  In this scene, Ennis is squinting (in his normal way) and really seems to be battered by the wind coming towards his face (his squinting seems to be as much a result of the wind as the brightness of the sun).  Jack however, appears almost completely un-touched by this wind... he almost seems oblivious to it.  He's not squinting (in anywhere near the dramatic fashion that Ennis is) and the fact that the wind come from behind Jack's back causes it to have less of an effect on his comfort (apparently).  And, then of course, once Jack leaves the wind remains to follow Ennis into the alley.

Truly amazing and very spooky.  Jack is honestly a little spooky in many ways even from very early on in the film... Only to become more dramatically so as a "presence" following his death.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #173 on: November 17, 2007, 08:48:55 pm »
Great observations Amanda.
I knew exactly what you were talking about when  I read that!
I just love the wind as a metaphor (I hope thats the right word) for Jack.
It's so fitting.
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #174 on: November 17, 2007, 08:59:10 pm »
Great observations Amanda.
I knew exactly what you were talking about when  I read that!
I just love the wind as a metaphor (I hope thats the right word) for Jack.
It's so fitting.

Thanks Friend!  The wind is my all-time favorite metaphor in BBM (in both the film and the story... and I'm just so glad that the filmmatkers really picked up on the wind idea from the story).  Absolutely gorgeous idea and symbol... and the ways that this symbol funcitons are just so numerous and profound.


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Offline loneleeb3

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #175 on: November 17, 2007, 09:50:54 pm »
Thanks Friend!  The wind is my all-time favorite metaphor in BBM (in both the film and the story... and I'm just so glad that the filmmatkers really picked up on the wind idea from the story).  Absolutely gorgeous idea and symbol... and the ways that this symbol funcitons are just so numerous and profound.
I know, they did a fantastic job.
The wind is truly like another character in the movie.
I don't know if it's been mentioned (probably has cause I'm not really smart enough to come up with this on my own so I probably heard it somewhere and don't remember! LOL) but it seems to me like Ennis Jack and the wind form some type of trinity. Just like in Christianity, when Jesus ascends to be with the Father his  Holy Spirit descends upon us to be with us. kinda like Jack and the wind.
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #176 on: November 30, 2008, 03:28:14 pm »
Bumping! Somehow this thread had fallen all the way down to page 6 of Open Forum! Yikes.  :o


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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #177 on: December 02, 2008, 11:56:20 am »
Well that is an unsatisfactory situation, friend! (said with a Texas twang)

Thought of Jack last nite as the howling wind ushered in a warm front to the Front Range.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #178 on: December 02, 2008, 02:46:43 pm »
It's so funny, Everytime it gets windy I think of Jack.
Once here recently I was chasing a recipt that had blown out of my car across the parking lot.
everytime I just about got my dern hands on it the wind would blow it about a foot ahead.
Finally I said "Very funny Jack, now can I getthat recipt?" I walked right over and picked it up wthout another gust of wind to blow it away. I can just imagine Jack sayin "Aww heck, I was just funnin ya! "  :laugh:  :laugh:
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #179 on: December 02, 2008, 03:14:25 pm »
It's so funny, Everytime it gets windy I think of Jack.
Once here recently I was chasing a recipt that had blown out of my car across the parking lot.
everytime I just about got my dern hands on it the wind would blow it about a foot ahead.
Finally I said "Very funny Jack, now can I getthat recipt?" I walked right over and picked it up wthout another gust of wind to blow it away. I can just imagine Jack sayin "Aww heck, I was just funnin ya! "  :laugh:  :laugh:


 :laugh: Jack must have heard you. Great story.

I love how almost three years into it our boys are still never too far from our minds in our everyday lives.
It's the same with the wind for me. Given that I don't live in a windy area. So when we do have a windy day every now and then, I always think of Jack. And of Barb, because I always think "Jack is here" (Barb is the one who originally posted the thread with the same name).

Offline mariez

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #180 on: December 03, 2008, 07:23:11 pm »
It's so funny, Everytime it gets windy I think of Jack.
Once here recently I was chasing a recipt that had blown out of my car across the parking lot.
everytime I just about got my dern hands on it the wind would blow it about a foot ahead.
Finally I said "Very funny Jack, now can I getthat recipt?" I walked right over and picked it up wthout another gust of wind to blow it away. I can just imagine Jack sayin "Aww heck, I was just funnin ya! "  :laugh:  :laugh:

Oh, that's funny - and kind of touching, too!  :)  Thanks for sharing that. 


I love how almost three years into it our boys are still never too far from our minds in our everyday lives.

I do, too, Chrissi.  It's amazing, really - in a good way.   :)

Marie
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #181 on: December 14, 2008, 01:15:31 pm »
Quote
I love how almost three years into it our boys are still never too far from our minds in our everyday lives.
It's only been a year and ahalf for me. However I will hold them close the rest of my life.
Like i always say......
Thank you Ennis for showing me the way!
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #182 on: December 23, 2008, 09:57:07 pm »
Thanks for bumping this. I had never read thru it before. I enjoyed the idea's posted, many of which are new to me. Jack and the wind is one of my favorite motif's.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #183 on: December 24, 2008, 03:12:15 pm »
Thanks for bumping this. I had never read thru it before. I enjoyed the idea's posted, many of which are new to me. Jack and the wind is one of my favorite motif's.

Hey Bud! It's one of my favorite metaphors from BBM too. :)

There are so many good, old, classic threads here in Open Forum.  Sometimes it really is fun to sit and read through some of the oldies-but-goodies. 8)

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #184 on: December 24, 2008, 03:24:56 pm »
I love this thread too, friends. I love that Aguirre thought Jack could control the weather and cure pneumonia. I love that Jack played harmonica and pumped up a tire. All those things he knew could get him killed and did get him killed, but he did them and we celebrate that he lived and loved in windy Wyoming.

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #185 on: December 25, 2008, 07:13:05 pm »
I love this thread too, friends. I love that Aguirre thought Jack could control the weather and cure pneumonia. I love that Jack played harmonica and pumped up a tire. All those things he knew could get him killed and did get him killed, but he did them and we celebrate that he lived and loved in windy Wyoming.


:'(
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #186 on: December 25, 2008, 08:15:14 pm »
Don't grieve that it came to an end, friend. Rejoice that it happened at all!!


 :-*

And one could say the same thing of the Christmas story...
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Offline loneleeb3

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #187 on: December 25, 2008, 09:55:39 pm »
Don't grieve that it came to an end, friend. Rejoice that it happened at all!!


 :-*

And one could say the same thing of the Christmas story...


True enough.
Had it not, who knows where I'd be!
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #188 on: December 30, 2008, 04:28:03 am »
I love this thread too, friends. I love that Aguirre thought Jack could control the weather and cure pneumonia. I love that Jack played harmonica and pumped up a tire. All those things he knew could get him killed and did get him killed, but he did them and we celebrate that he lived and loved in windy Wyoming.

This probably belongs on another thread, but controlling the weather and curing pneumonia would be miracles. That and the association of Jack with the wind/Pentecost; the spirit of the Lord coming upon his disciples like a wind. Supports the idea of Jack as a Christ figure (IMO). The only miracle Jack could perform was his love for Ennis. Perhaps at the end of the lake scene Jack performed his final miracle; he let Ennis go for Ennis's sake. Jack gave up on his dream of a sweet life with Ennis to set Ennis free from his anguish. Self-Sacrifice, Jack's greatest miracle.

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #189 on: December 30, 2008, 12:15:26 pm »
This probably belongs on another thread, but controlling the weather and curing pneumonia would be miracles. That and the association of Jack with the wind/Pentecost; the spirit of the Lord coming upon his disciples like a wind. Supports the idea of Jack as a Christ figure (IMO). The only miracle Jack could perform was his love for Ennis. Perhaps at the end of the lake scene Jack performed his final miracle; he let Ennis go for Ennis's sake. Jack gave up on his dream of a sweet life with Ennis to set Ennis free from his anguish. Self-Sacrifice, Jack's greatest miracle.

That is a beautiful thought, though sad, like most beautiful things are.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #190 on: December 30, 2008, 12:17:29 pm »
This probably belongs on another thread, but controlling the weather and curing pneumonia would be miracles. That and the association of Jack with the wind/Pentecost; the spirit of the Lord coming upon his disciples like a wind. Supports the idea of Jack as a Christ figure (IMO). The only miracle Jack could perform was his love for Ennis. Perhaps at the end of the lake scene Jack performed his final miracle; he let Ennis go for Ennis's sake. Jack gave up on his dream of a sweet life with Ennis to set Ennis free from his anguish. Self-Sacrifice, Jack's greatest miracle.
Friend,I think you are so right!!

Quote
That is a beautiful thought, though sad, like most beautiful things are.
Amen!! Wonder why beauty and pain are so intertwined?

"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #191 on: December 30, 2008, 01:54:49 pm »
Amen!! Wonder why beauty and pain are so intertwined?



Because beautiful things always seem to be fleeting and impermanent. This is the premise of the first novel ever written, The Tale of Genji, by Lady Murasaki. Genji was a Jack, always pursuing truth, happiness, and beauty, and always disappointed and eluded.

I thought of this concept again when viewing The Curious Case of Benjamin Button.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #192 on: April 09, 2009, 04:45:48 pm »
Because beautiful things always seem to be fleeting and impermanent. This is the premise of the first novel ever written, The Tale of Genji, by Lady Murasaki. Genji was a Jack, always pursuing truth, happiness, and beauty, and always disappointed and eluded.

I thought of this concept again when viewing The Curious Case of Benjamin Button.


Nice observation Lee! 8)  The concept of fleeting happiness... or the theme of recognizing happiness in the moments when it does arrive (while recognizing that it won't be permanent) is also a brought up in the movie The Hours.  I still haven't seen The Curious Case of Benjamin Button.


So, I'm here because some thing that I was reading in a fanfic story recently actually caused me to think about this thread and the wind theme again.  It's a scenario where Ennis is talking about Jack's "gift" for language, conversation and talk while he regrets that he isn't more skillful with verbal language himself.  Often Jack's talkative-ness is seen as a point of humor, but I thought it was interesting to think of it in a more somber and positive way.

And, it makes me wonder if, much like Jack's affinity for wind instruments (harmonica)... talking is an extension of the wind motif (since talking involved pushing air in and out of the lungs).  And, I wonder if Ennis's silence is an extension of his "earth" motif. In some ways he almost seems to have an inability to express himself verbally (as in the motel scene... in the film at least... where he responds to Jack through only touches to some of Jack's question), which to me might go along with the fundamental silence of the earth/ ground/ soil, etc.

I don't know if this has been brought up before here or not... but I thought it was interesting to ponder.





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Offline fernly

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #193 on: April 09, 2009, 05:26:52 pm »
Quote
So, I'm here because some thing that I was reading in a fanfic story recently actually caused me to think about this thread and the wind theme again.  It's a scenario where Ennis is talking about Jack's "gift" for language, conversation and talk while he regrets that he isn't more skillful with verbal language himself.  Often Jack's talkative-ness is seen as a point of humor, but I thought it was interesting to think of it in a more somber and positive way.

And, it makes me wonder if, much like Jack's affinity for wind instruments (harmonica)... talking is an extension of the wind motif (since talking involved pushing air in and out of the lungs).  And, I wonder if Ennis's silence is an extension of his "earth" motif. In some ways he almost seems to have an inability to express himself verbally (as in the motel scene... in the film at least... where he responds to Jack through only touches to some of Jack's question), which to me might go along with the fundamental silence of the earth/ ground/ soil, etc.

I don't know if this has been brought up before here or not... but I thought it was interesting to ponder.

Lovely observations, Amanda, thank you. This'll be interesting to mull over.
on the mountain flying in the euphoric, bitter air

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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #194 on: April 20, 2009, 03:20:27 pm »
You're right that these allusions are related, friend Amanda. And what's more, they're all interwoven. This shows the masterwork of Annie Proulx. She barely mentions the harmonica flattened by a lucky throw from the touchy mare. The harmonica theme is expanded by screenwriters Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana in the movie. Interestingly, AP chose a similar instrument, the accordion, and focused an entire novel on it, Accordion Crimes.

"Flatness" occurs in the very first part of the story...Jack comes from Lightning Flat. The harmonica is introduced during the mountain scenes, and then flatness comes up again at the end. Jack is "pumping up a flat" when it supposedly explodes and the tire rim hits him in the jaw. He dies by suffocation...blood fills his lungs.

Also, in the prelude of the story, the wind, which has been wailing around Ennis' trailer, temporarily "dies" leaving a brief silence, while Ennis has been dreaming about his old sheepherding partner on the mountain. Does flatness refer to lack of wind (breath)? Or does it mean more than that, the "flattening" that is caused by our being beaten down by life, being "hit by the hammer of life" as AP refers to it?
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Re: "I was supposed to control the weather"... Jack and the Wind
« Reply #195 on: February 21, 2012, 04:14:23 pm »
Jack is here today...gusts up to 40 mph!!  :o
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