What do you think makes this movie so romantic?

[serious crayons]

One thing I've always wondered about Brokeback is, what makes it such a powerful romance? Why do I find it roughly a million times more romantic than any other movie love story I can remember seeing? I mean, sure, we're all obsessed. Still, it seems odd that out of all of cinematic history I am unable to think of even one film couple that I cared about half as much as I do Jack and Ennis. So what makes their relationship so moving?

A few possible reasons come to mind. Probably no single one fully explains it, but maybe a bunch of them put together do. So I thought I'd see what you guys have to add.

So I'll start:

I was discussing Brokeback with a friend, who liked it but only in a mildly appreciative way. One of her criticisms was that she wished you could see more sparks between them prior to TS1. Of course, as all of us here know, you can. The subtlety of those sparks caused my friend to overlook them -- I barely picked up on them myself the first time I saw it -- but it's the subtlety that makes them so touching.

I started thinking about how in most movies, the sparks are generated by some wildly improbable experience the couple goes through. She is being chased by gangsters, and he has to help her hide. Or they each think the apartment they live in is theirs, but that's because one of them is actually a ghost. Even more everday scenarios are still pretty out there: they go on a date together and everything goes absurdly wrong, or they hate each other until one of them goes through a bad experience and the other one is sympathetic ... or whatever.

But we watch Jack and Ennis fall in love exactly the way people in real life fall in love. There's the initial physical attraction. The friendship develops. They admire qualities in each other. They sneak glances when the other isn't looking. They find opportunities to touch. They do nice things for each other. They flirt. They start to genuinely care about each other.

Nothing absurd or unusual. Plus, they do all this while also trying NOT to show that it's happening. The realism and subtlety draw us in. We remember what those feelings are like, and can feel ourselves falling in love, too.

What else?

[Aussie Chris]

Great question Katherine.  Ok here's one from me (it's the obvious one I'm afraid): Jack and Ennis really only have each other.  Like the Montague and Capulet families of Romeo & Juliet, the world is against them.  We identify with them because we see our own romantic lives as a struggle of fate against reality.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Just one reason, but an important one: It's a tragedy. They don't live happily ever after, or ride off into the sunset just before the credits role. All the great love stories in Western culture are ultimately tragedies.

[ednbarby]

I agree with all these observations.  And Katherine, I can't tell you how much it gets on my last nerve when people see it for the first time and dismiss it largely based on that "no sparks" observation.  Dumbass mules.  I can understand where it's hard to see them for some people in their first viewing, I guess.  But I never had a doubt.  And you're right - I think it's because our culture is conditioned to only "believe" love stories when they're actually highly contrived.  Bugs the bejesus out of me.  Reminds me of some lines from one of my favorite band's songs, which has become eerily Jack-like to me in recent times:

I'm the son of rage and love,
The Jesus of Suburbia
The Bible of Therapy and Love -
on a steady diet of.

And there's nothing wrong with me,
This is how I'm s'posed to be.
In a land of make-believe,
They don't believe in me.

But I digress.  I've always loved the stories like "Jane Eyre" and "Emma," or "Sense and Sensibility" where two people who are best friends outwardly are inwardly very much in love with one another but don't recognize it consciously until it's almost too late.  In Brokeback's case, it is absolutely too late when Ennis finally recognizes it and gives it its proper name in his mind.  That's the tragedy (among others, since nothing about it is black and white).

[serious crayons]

Green Day channeling Jack Twist! There's a new concept, Barb. (How about "Time of Your Life"?)

OK, here's another one: For me, perhaps THE most romantic aspects is the internal struggle Ennis goes through. A great romance often requires one or both lovers to overcome some daunting challenge on behalf of the other. That's exactly what Ennis does -- despite a lifetime of associating homosexuality with fear and violence and shame, he loves Jack SO MUCH that he sets all those prejudices aside in order to be with him. Not as far aside as we'd like, of course. But for him, it's huge. And it's worth noting that he never allows his negative feelings to diminish his obvious joy and passion when he is with Jack.

And for Jack, of course, the daunting challenge is the 20-year wait. And again, the fact that he's able to hang in there so long tell us how much he loves Ennis and how important that love is.

[Brown Eyes]

OK, here's another one: For me, perhaps THE most romantic aspects is the internal struggle Ennis goes through. A great romance often requires one or both lovers to overcome some daunting challenge on behalf of the other. That's exactly what Ennis does -- despite a lifetime of associating homosexuality with fear and violence and shame, he loves Jack SO MUCH that he sets all those prejudices aside in order to be with him. Not as far aside as we'd like, of course. But for him, it's huge. And it's worth noting that he never allows his negative feelings to diminish his obvious joy and passion when he is with Jack.

Absolutely!  I think that nails Ennis's situation perfectly.  He gives Jack every little bit that he thinks he's capable of giving.  Once Jack is dead, of course, he realizes just how much more he could have given.  But still, that romance is what makes his life meaningful and exciting (aside from his kids).

I think the "true romance" or "love of one's life" romance from both sides (Jack and Ennis) is solid from very, very early on on Brokeback (maybe from the moment that Ennis clings to Jack's head in the first tent scene).  I felt that the tragedy and tension comes not from worrying whether they're in love but from the external tensions and external homophobia (and the internalization of that homophobia in Ennis's mind) that constrain them.

As to people who don't see the initial attraction in the beginning of the film... I think people are just simply not used to seeing two men flirting.  Especially given the exquisite subtlty of Lee's depiction of this.  People tend to immediately see two men looking at each other as a sign of competition, rivalry, etc., etc.  But, it becomes a leap or a total change of perspective for many people to see those gazes as longing and attraction.  This same thing would be true in the depiction of two women falling in love too.

[ednbarby]

Actually, I find Green Day to be channeling Jack in pretty much all their songs.  Especially on "American Idiot" (where the idiot, for the unitiated, is everyone who sits in judgment of others).

Check this out from St. Jimmy:

I'm the patron saint of their denial
With an angel's face and a taste for the suicidal

Or this from Novacaine:

Take away the sensation inside
This bittersweet migraine in my head
It's like a throbbing toothache of the mind
I can't take this feeling anymore.
Drain the pressure from the swelling
This sensation's overwhelming.
Give me your kiss good night
And everything will be all right
Tell me that I won't feel a thing -
Give me novacaine.

Or this from Jesus of Suburbia:

And I leave behind
This hurricane of f***ing lies
And I've walked this line
A million and one f***ing times,
but not this time.

And this from She's a Rebel:

She's a rebel, she's a saint
She's the salt of the earth
And she's dangerous
She's a symbol of resistance
And she's holding on my heart like a hand grenade.
She sings The Revolution - the dawning of our lives
She brings this liberation that I just can't define,
Well, nothing comes to mind.

Have I mentioned that I love this band?

[RingerFanatic]

I think a large part of why this is The Ultimate Romance movie for me is Jack Twist as portrayed by Jake Gyllenhaal. His expressions of love and longing...and at the end, bitter disappointment and sadness is sometimes just too much to bear. It's pure, sweet and completely heartbreaking. Jake really brought to life a character of such innocent and romantic longing that it made me want to love like that (or at least find someone like that to love me!)

And the other half, Ennis Del Mar as portrayed by Heath Ledger, also adds to the romantic heartbreak by showing us a man who is capable of happiness and pure love in private....but not in public. Like the other posters here mentioned, this is about two regular everyday people who (IMHO) realistically fell in love. No effects. No overbearing John Williams soundtrack. No overacting emoting. Just plain fellas falling in love. A love that dares not speak its name. Now that's romantic tragedy at its best.

[SFEnnisSF]

#1:  They start out as friends, and go through and experience something together (hearding the sheep).  The world (and their work) brings them together. 

I really don't think it was all lust and flirting in the beginning.  I don't think they knew how to do that, honestly.  But the signs of a growing friendship were definitely there.

#2:  They are torn apart from eachother (for many reasons), and then we see the reunion, and our hopes and warm feelings and passions are hightened by this.

#3:  But then, their love is really never fully obtained.  This is the most gut-wrenching part as to why this movie lingers.  We only see the hopes and dreams of it.

[ednbarby]

As to people who don't see the initial attraction in the beginning of the film... I think people are just simply not used to seeing two men flirting.  Especially given the exquisite subtlty of Lee's depiction of this.  People tend to immediately see two men looking at each other as a sign of competition, rivalry, etc., etc.  But, it becomes a leap or a total change of perspective for many people to see those gazes as longing and attraction.  This same thing would be true in the depiction of two women falling in love too.

Exactly!  Beautifully-stated, Amanda.  I hope you don't mind if I use this argument the next time one of my boneheaded ex-friends tries that lame-ass argument on me.

[ednbarby]

I think a large part of why this is The Ultimate Romance movie for me is Jack Twist as portrayed by Jake Gyllenhaal. His expressions of love and longing...and at the end, bitter disappointment and sadness is sometimes just too much to bear. It's pure, sweet and completely heartbreaking. Jake really brought to life a character of such innocent and romantic longing that it made me want to love like that (or at least find someone like that to love me!)

And the other half, Ennis Del Mar as portrayed by Heath Ledger, also adds to the romantic heartbreak by showing us a man who is capable of happiness and pure love in private....but not in public. Like the other posters here mentioned, this is about two regular everyday people who (IMHO) realistically fell in love. No effects. No overbearing John Williams soundtrack. No overacting emoting. Just plain fellas falling in love. A love that dares not speak its name. Now that's romantic tragedy at its best.

Also beautifully-said, RF.  To expand on this just a little, it's about Jack's outward yearning and Ennis' inward one.  What's so heartbreaking to me is how much Ennis always holds back from Jack.  We see him *pining* for him in all those scenes when he's without him.  Out on the highway, looking towards the mountains in the distance, in bed with Alma, trying with all his might to pretend she's him, waiting for his arrival and drinking 7 (or is it 8 ) beers and chain-smoking because he's so afraid he isn't gonna show/so excited at the anticipation of his actually showing.  And then all he can say to Jack's "What about you?" is "Me? Uh, I ... dunno..."  Or when Jack says "Truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it," and he can't even muster a single word, but we *know* his heart has been burning for him since the last time he saw him.  You're right, though - it's both of them.  Because as we've said many times before, you can't have one without the other.  And it's that constant push and pull between them that's so captivating.  As one of my acting heroes says, it's about the delicate cord that exists between two people who love each other.  Lee hones in on that delicacy - it's his particular talent.  And as I've said before, this film separates the men from the boys for me - the men being the ones who can see and appreciate that delicate cord for how very real it is, and the boys being the ones who need their love stories to be utterly contrived and overtly emotional in order for them to make any sense to them.

[Brown Eyes]

Exactly!  Beautifully-stated, Amanda.  I hope you don't mind if I use this argument the next time one of my boneheaded ex-friends tries that lame-ass argument on me.

Awww, thanks Friend.  Of course, feel free to use that line of argument anytime. 

Along with all the things people have mentioned... The pace and wistfulness of the filming goes a long way to producing a romantic atmosphere.  That and the intangible, indescribable chemistry between Jack and Ennis also contributes a great deal.  Jake and Heath just flat out have some chemistry going in real life too.  Even in their "real life" interviews there's an amazing chemistry (be it platonic and just friendship or not). 

[ednbarby]

They absolutely have the chemistry, Amanda.  And that's something you either have with someone for real or you don't.  Laurence Olivier or Carrot Top - you cannot act pheromones.

[Aussie Chris]

Also beautifully-said, RF.  To expand on this just a little, it's about Jack's outward yearning and Ennis' inward one.  What's so heartbreaking to me is how much Ennis always holds back from Jack.  We see him *pining* for him in all those scenes when he's without him.  Out on the highway, looking towards the mountains in the distance, in bed with Alma, trying with all his might to pretend she's him, waiting for his arrival and drinking 7 (or is it 8 ) beers and chain-smoking because he's so afraid he isn't gonna show/so excited at the anticipation of his actually showing.  And then all he can say to Jack's "What about you?" is "Me? Uh, I ... dunno..."  Or when Jack says "Truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it," and he can't even muster a single word, but we *know* his heart has been burning for him since the last time he saw him.  You're right, though - it's both of them.  Because as we've said many times before, you can't have one without the other.  And it's that constant push and pull between them that's so captivating.  As one of my acting heroes says, it's about the delicate cord that exists between two people who love each other.  Lee hones in on that delicacy - it's his particular talent.  And as I've said before, this film separates the men from the boys for me - the men being the ones who can see and appreciate that delicate cord for how very real it is, and the boys being the ones who need their love stories to be utterly contrived and overtly emotional in order for them to make any sense to them.

Hey Barb, the "afterglow" scene in the hotel always makes me a little sad for Ennis.  Right there and there, lying in Jack's arms, he's so happy and in love.  You see him stroke Jacks arm when he confesses that he thought he's never see Jack again after "that punch".  And just when Jack talks about redlining it there and asks "how about you", Ennis runs back inside his shell, unable to say anything but reflect on his lot in life.  You just want to give him a good shake don't you?

But one thing that I've been thinking lately is Jack was all too willing to accept the situation and the limited amount of time Ennis was willing/able to give him.  The book talks about the first "fishing trip" as almost a consolation prize after Ennis rejects the cow-and-calf operation and "shoots Jack's plane out of the sky".  I'm not getting into a book/film comparison here, but I sometimes wonder why Jack did this.  In my thinking this makes him a co-conspirator, and makes him equally responsible for Ennis' reluctance as Ennis was.

So another reason the film is realistic and romantic, they each make mistakes and fail to do the obvious thing that would make them happy - again, just like real life!

[TJ]

Here in the USA, we call a hotel where you can park your "motor car" right outside of the front door a "motel." That's "motor hotel" shortened to one word. The place was called the "Motel Siesta."

In the book, after Jack and Ennis trade places, and Ennis actually gets to work while riding his horse with the sheep, Ennis begins to have a change in his own self-esteem.

Ennis felt that he had accomplished something when the first thing he told Jack when he came down from above to the camp platform was that he had killed a coyote at first light. Ennis' spirit is that of one who is a protector. After he shaves, Ennis strips off in front of the campfire (Jack notices that Ennis wears no underwear nor socks) and warshes everything he can reach while Jack is peeling potatoes. And after supper, Ennis opens up to Jack about his life before Brokeback. And, Jack shares his own experiences, too.

That evening together where Jack and Ennis respected each other's opinions moved Ennis' self-esteem up several notches. That's why he felt like he could paw the white out of the moon when he was riding back up to spend the night with the sheep.

It could have been love at first sight for Jack Twist; but, with Ennis, the friendship which developed over time turned into his being in love with Jack. I think that the "dozy embrace" flashback where a sexless hunger was satisfied took place during their developing friendship before the first night in the tent. I feel that Jack had a need of natural affection from another man as to fill a emptiness for companionship and that Ennis took care of doing that in his sorta mothering Jack by holding  him behind. I only use "mothering" here because Ennis apparently never got hugs and kisses or was even held by his own father before his father died.

While my situation with Ed Pursell was not quite like that of Jack and Ennis, I believe that Ed was in love with me from the beginning of our first night together. I moved in with him 10 days after that. I loved Ed as a friend and it felt like being with family in his presence. But, we were together for a while before I realized that I was in love with him and said to myself, "I want to spend the rest of my life with this man."

And, I had that thought one evening when Ed was fixing something to eat and I was standing in the kitchen talking to him. We had talks like I had with my mother in the kitchen at home.

[Brown Eyes]

Hey Barb, the "afterglow" scene in the hotel always makes me a little sad for Ennis.  Right there and there, lying in Jack's arms, he's so happy and in love.  You see him stroke Jacks arm when he confesses that he thought he's never see Jack again after "that punch".  And just when Jack talks about redlining it there and asks "how about you", Ennis runs back inside his shell, unable to say anything but reflect on his lot in life.  You just want to give him a good shake don't you?

Yes, there is a bit of frustration with Ennis's inability to articulate things here in the motel.  But, film-Ennis almost exclusively expresses his affection physically... after each of Jack's questions/ comments in the motel Ennis caresses his arm... and he does this especially forcefully when Jack says "Brokeback got us good."  But, Ennis does sort of laugh in agreement when Jack talks about redlining it and being so anxious to get there.  He also echos Jack's little "four years" comment in the very beginning of the scene.  The "I dunno" is pretty frustrating at the same time.  Jack doesn't seem concerned by this at this point.  I think he understands the part about reading Ennis's physical signals throughout.  If nothing else, Jack is very smart and careful about how he approaches Ennis, what he tells him, how he deals with all of Ennis's millions of insecurities... People of these threads have said that Ennis speaks and expresses himself in a sort of code since he's so closeted.  Jack becomes extremely good at interpreting all this, though yes Jack certainly makes some mistakes. 

It makes me sad that the beautiful mood at the beginning of the "prayer of thanks" scene is broken and made at least sad and worrisome just at the moment when Jack really takes a risk and puts himself out there with his cow and calf operation proposal.  It may have been too soon to suggest living together... almost the equivalent of a marriage proposal.  But, I guess we need to bear in mind that he doesn't yet know the full extent of Ennis's fear, internalized homophobia and background until the Earl story.  Talk about a super romantic scene filled with a million complexities.  It goes from sweet, peaceful and simple... to a moment filled with a bit of pressure through Jack's proposal (certainly romantic tension from Jack's perspective)... to Ennis's revelation of his deepest fears... and then to the beautifully sweet and loving resolution of Jack caressing Ennis's face.  I also think that this moment of conversation contains Ennis's biggest moment of verbal commitment to Jack (at least while he's alive).  When Jack asks how long they'll be together under Ennis's sad rule of only "once in a while"... Ennis replies "for as long as we can ride it".  I think this greatly eases the disappointment for Jack.  Ennis is essentially saying that he wants to be with Jack for as long as humanly possible.  The "there ain't no reigns on this one" comment is awfully romantic too.  It's like he's saying he's so in love with Jack that he can't control himself or societal reactions, but he'll try to make this work for as long as he can.

OK, so I'm going on and on... but I have one last comment here (for now  ).
I think one of the reasons the movie is soooo romantic is that it's essentially about intimacy and loving someone way beyond anything to do directly with sex.  I think this is the point behind the flashback scene and even the way that Proulx writes that scene.  They want to be together and cling to one another.  The love making is a big part of it... but usually when we see them in moments of physical contact, they're hugging or cradling each other, or kissing rather gently.  I think it's very interesting that the motel scene does focus on the "afterglow," the embrace and the conversation and not on the actual "love scene" itself.

[serious crayons]

... When Jack asks how long they'll be together under Ennis's sad rule of only "once in a while"... Ennis replies "for as long as we can ride it".  I think this greatly eases the disappointment for Jack.  Ennis is essentially saying that he wants to be with Jack for as long as humanly possible.  The "there ain't no reigns on this one" comment is awfully romantic too.  It's like he's saying he's so in love with Jack that he can't control himself or societal reactions, but he'll try to make this work for as long as he can.

That's how I read that conversation, too, Amanda. What else could he mean by "if this thing takes hold of us at the wrong place, wrong time" -- what is the "thing"? It's love, or the passionate expression of it -- so powerful that Ennis worries they won't be able to resist showing it, wherever they are.

I know some people feel sad for Jack when Ennis doesn't answer the "how bout you?" question. But I tend to think that's more OUR frustration than Jack's -- we'd sure like to hear Ennis say something nice, but Jack barely seems to notice. In fact his "Brokeback got us good, didn't it" immediately afterward shows that he understands that Brokeback got Ennis good, too, whether he says so or not.

And that's the pattern throughout their relationship. Ennis has ways of expressing his love, they're just not verbal for the most part. But Jack knows how to read them. I never get the sense that Jack is longing for confirmation that Ennis loves him. What he's longing is for Ennis to make a commitment to that love.

[Aussie Chris]

That's how I read that conversation, too, Amanda. What else could he mean by "if this thing takes hold of us at the wrong place, wrong time" -- what is the "thing"? It's love, or the passionate expression of it -- so powerful that Ennis worries they won't be able to resist showing it, wherever they are.

Um, I don't think "love" is completely the right word in place of "thing" for me - "passion" suites better in my mind (sorry if that's just simantics).  I don't think I was necessarily "sad" at Ennis not saying something nice to Jack at this time, actually I think it's in keeping with his lack of thought on the issue, and his caresses of Jack arm speaks volumes anyway.  So I agree that this was enough for Jack (at least then).

It's interesting to me that I have very fond feelings towards Ennis when I think about him in this light.  Contrastingly though, if we were to have a detailed conversation about how Jack felt, my frustration would probably rule.  Makes me think I have an idea of what it might be like to be Libran or maybe I'm thinking Gemini - I get confused about who's supposed to be what...

[serious crayons]

Um, I don't think "love" is completely the right word in place of "thing" for me - "passion" suites better in my mind (sorry if that's just simantics).

Tell you what, Chris, you're right. And it's not just semantics, it's a valid distinction. I'll take that back. What he refers to as "this thing (that) grabs hold of us" is passion, not love.

However, I think he subtly expresses love throughout this scene, from the "prayer of thanks" to the lines Amanda mentioned about "long as we can ride it" and "ain't no reins."

I don't think I was necessarily "sad" at Ennis not saying something nice to Jack at this time, actually I think it's in keeping with his lack of thought on the issue, and his caresses of Jack arm speaks volumes anyway.  So I agree that this was enough for Jack (at least then).

There's just an ongoing division of opinions on this issue: did Ennis express his love to Jack? I'm in the school that says he did, unmistakably. Believe me, personally I would LOVE to see more endearments from Ennis, verbal or otherwise. They're my favorite parts! But I think limiting them helps define his character.

It's interesting to me that I have very fond feelings towards Ennis when I think about him in this light.  Contrastingly though, if we were to have a detailed conversation about how Jack felt, my frustration would probably rule.

That tension is answer factor in what makes the movie so romantic, hunh?

[nic]

My take on this question is that it is because we see their relationship portrayed as the ultimate first love and lasting love.  It is probably both guys' first (& only) time properly in love, and they fall in love in an idyllic setting where it's just the two of them & nature.  The ideal place, making it all the more special even though first love is so special anyway.  You feel like there is just you & your lover & nothing else matters.  They had pretty much the realisation of that to start with. 

Most first loves are doomed to fail because of the circumstances - you're too young, you're on holiday, etc  With these two, their love does not abate with time as seen by the reunion kiss. Their love really is a force of nature, it overcomes them.  Then they continue to meet, and when they do, it's just them together back with nature. That they have to lie to get there, have limited time & live without each other for the rest of the time pales into comparison when they're together again - a recreation of Brokeback & all that was perfect about it.  That continues for the most part untainted by pressures & stresses building up, so it means they never loose that feeling of being so into each other.  Just like a long distance relationship for the most part.  Lust is very importantly involved too, in that it re-inforces feelings of falling/being in love.   

Their love never gets to the stage of having a large component of loving companionship brought about my sharing everyday experiences together.  That kind of love is a prvilege to have and when you have it, you still have moments of being in love but that heady feeling of being high on love can't last.  Biologically it would be impossible anyway  - our brains & nerves would fry from all those chemicals flying around!  But who doesn't yearn to feel that high?  There's nothing like it, nothing to beat it. 

And that's why I think I find BBM so romantic - I associate J & E with falling & being in love.  It evokes those feelings again & the passions that fortunately I have experienced in my life.  It's a credit to Heath & Jake that they were able to convey it so well, especially to a (mainly) straight woman like myself. 

nic

[ednbarby]

*Very* well-said, Nic.  I think you've hit the nail on the proverbial head, there.  Beautiful.

And as for what I was saying about Ennis not expressing himself more, I think I always feel so sad for Jack in that "I dunno" scene because I always see him closing his eyes a little tighter there in response.  But I think I may have misread that.  Now, I'm thinking it's not in response to Ennis' non-answer but kind of in preparation for what he's about to say, which is "Brokeback got us good, don't it?"  I think you're all absolutely right - Jack knew Ennis loved him - it's why he kept on keeping on with him for so long - it's why any of us in that situation do - either out of knowledge that he loves us or in the hope that he might.  In their case, I do think he knew.  And as was said before, his frustration wasn't in Ennis not expressing it better, because of course he loved Ennis absolutely the way he was, and that kind of expression wasn't something he was capable of.  It was in his inability to make that leap to building a life with him, together, as Jack wanted.

Have I mentioned yet today how much I love this movie?  And you guys?

[nic]

*Very* well-said, Nic.  I think you've hit the nail on the proverbial head, there.  Beautiful.

And as for what I was saying about Ennis not expressing himself more, I think I always feel so sad for Jack in that "I dunno" scene because I always see him closing his eyes a little tighter there in response.  But I think I may have misread that.  Now, I'm thinking it's not in response to Ennis' non-answer but kind of in preparation for what he's about to say, which is "Brokeback got us good, don't it?"  I think you're all absolutely right - Jack knew Ennis loved him - it's why he kept on keeping on with him for so long - it's why any of us in that situation do - either out of knowledge that he loves us or in the hope that he might.  In their case, I do think he knew.  And as was said before, his frustration wasn't in Ennis not expressing it better, because of course he loved Ennis absolutely the way he was, and that kind of expression wasn't something he was capable of.  It was in his inability to make that leap to building a life with him, together, as Jack wanted.

Have I mentioned yet today how much I love this movie?  And you guys?

Thanks!  It was a ramble about something I feel, rather than think.  Glad it made some sense to you.

Yep, Jack kept on with Ennis because of love.  Even in relationships that are genuinely falling apart, both partners can still be a bit in love with the other and that is why some endings of relationships get long & drawn out & are so painful.  This was beginning to happen in the end with J & E to a small extent, but that is another discussion.

nic

[Aussie Chris]

And that's why I think I find BBM so romantic - I associate J & E with falling & being in love.  It evokes those feelings again & the passions that fortunately I have experienced in my life.  It's a credit to Heath & Jake that they were able to convey it so well, especially to a (mainly) straight woman like myself. 

Thanks for your thoughts here nic, and I agree with you.  You know it's crossed my mind from time to time why this relationship (Jack & Ennis) works for straight women.  In general (forgive me please), I am of the understanding that most women are not "turned on" by gay sex, although that might be more about male's preoccupation with pornography.  Do you think BBM is accessible to women simply because of the romance angle?  Is this all that was needed to override any issues of gender/orientation?  Can this also be used to define the level of enjoyment for BBM?  That is, is an appreciation of romance in a film or a desire for romance in life a character trait for a Brokaholic, distinguishing them from the "it was just ok" or "didn't like it" demographics?

[ednbarby]

Thanks for your thoughts here nic, and I agree with you.  You know it's crossed my mind from time to time why this relationship (Jack & Ennis) works for straight women.  In general (forgive me please), I am of the understanding that most women are not "turned on" by gay sex, although that might be more about male's preoccupation with pornography.  Do you think BBM is accessible to women simply because of the romance angle?  Is this all that was needed to override any issues of gender/orientation?  Can this also be used to define the level of enjoyment for BBM?  That is, is an appreciation of romance in a film or a desire for romance in life a character trait for a Brokaholic, distinguishing them from the "it was just ok" or "didn't like it" demographics?

Ooh - meaty discussion, here.    Well, speaking just for myself, I actually *am* turned on by gay sex, just as I'm turned on by straight sex and lesbian sex, *when* it's shown between two partners who appear to be very deeply in love with each other.  I'm not turned on by pornographic sex of any kind - it only hits me where I live when I can feel their love for one another.  You know?  When it's truly intimate - that's what's erotic to me.  That's why I love kissing scenes most of all when they're done right and the chemistry is real between the actors - because I think kissing is *much* more intimate than just the act itself, regardless of whether the act is gay, straight or lesbian.  That's why the reunion kiss (and their very first kiss) rocks my world and gives me the hands-free sensation every time.  Because it's intimate, and it's real.  But I must also say that their first consummation turns me on, too, because there's so much very believable passion in it.

And as far as the romance angle, I think it's safe to say that women as a rule are much more into love stories than straight men.

[Brown Eyes]

Well, I'm a gay woman and while I don't get *turned on* so to speak by two guys being intimate... I completely love and adore the fact that this is a powerful and amazing gay romance.  I think our boys are adorable and I love to see them *being together* but my reaction to all this is on a level that I really can't explain.  I think that's a huge part of the reason why I am so preoccupied with the movie. 
 

[ednbarby]

Well, I'm a gay woman and while I don't get *turned on* so to speak by two guys being intimate... I completely love and adore the fact that this is a powerful and amazing gay romance.  I think our boys are adorable and I love to see them *being together* but my reaction to all this is on a level that I really can't explain.  I think that's a huge part of the reason why I am so preoccupied with the movie. 
 

You know, Amanda, I do think that those of us who respond to this movie like we do are responding to it on a very primal level.  You're right - it is very difficult to put it into words.  My husband responded to it on that level, I think, and I doubt very much that he's turned on by gay sex per ce.  (But, hey, I've been wrong about him before.)

I think that for straight/bi women and gay men, there is certainly an element of empathizing on the level of knowing what it is to be passionately in love with a man.  But I don't think it's the only element - it can't be, or straight men and gay women wouldn't be moved by it like so many are.  Perhaps it is the universal aspect of missed opportunities, of fear holding us back from being all we could be, so to speak.  But, just like you, I think there's more to it than that.  I can't quite put a finger on it, but I think it has to do with the idea or memory of finding that one person in a million with whom you can be utterly yourself and then the idea or memory of losing such a person forever when you had it in your power not to that's what cut my husband (and me, come to think of it) to the core.

[Aussie Chris]

Hey there Amanda & Barb, I must say that I take some pride in the fact that I asked a question you couldn't immediately answer!    I think the two of you are right up there in the expert category (as far as I am concerned) when it comes to understanding all the nuances of this film, particularly in terms of artistic merit, aesthetics, and symbology, so it intrigues me to think about all these elements add up to affect you (and us all) on a personal level.

Within this context of this discussion, I'm not convinced that it is merely about being able to identify with the missed opportunities of the characters, etc, etc.  I'm happy to accept that there are primal responses involved that go beyond gender and orientation, but are we saying that romance *is* primal?  Or put another way, is there a fundamental need by humans to love and be loved that goes beyond sexuality?  I certainly believe this is true for me, but I wonder if I would feel the same if it were two women, or a man and a woman?  Being a gay man I'm not sure I could (a humble admission).   Note we have to suspend the "unattainable element" aspect of the BBM for a moment (at least for a straight version).

What are your thoughts?

[serious crayons]

You know it's crossed my mind from time to time why this relationship (Jack & Ennis) works for straight women.  In general (forgive me please), I am of the understanding that most women are not "turned on" by gay sex, although that might be more about male's preoccupation with pornography.  Do you think BBM is accessible to women simply because of the romance angle?  Is this all that was needed to override any issues of gender/orientation?

I'm glad you asked this, Chris, because this has been an intriguing part of the experience for me. It IS difficult to explain, but I will try. I was surprised myself that I found the love scenes so thrilling. For one thing, I'm usually not hugely interested in watching people of any orientation have sex unless one of the people is me. I don't find most movie sex scenes sexy. I only do if a) they're very aesthetically appealing: beautiful lighting and cinematography, beautiful actors (yes, I'm shallow), etc. AND b) the backstory is engaging -- usually that means romantic, and c) they are convincingly passionate (which right there excludes 90 percent of movies). Frankly, I did expect to find this one even less exciting than usual. I've never felt particularly interested in watching gay men together, no offense to anyone, not because I'm homophobic (I hope) but because that seems like something that by definition wouldn't include me. Also, when I HAVE felt engaged in love scenes in straight movies, I assumed it was because I identified with Julia or Gwyneth or whoever -- I put myself in the woman's place, she's my portal into the scene. With this there'd be no portal.

So anyway, obviously I was wrong. Brokeback passes all those tests for me. Aesthetic appeal? Check. Romantic story? Check. Convincingly passionate? Man, that's for sure. And as far as being able to put myself into the scene, turns out gender doesn't matter for this, so this movie actually TWICE as many portals, twice as many ways to be drawn in as straight movies do. When I previously assumed I was identifying with the actress as a fellow woman (so to speak), I now realize that actually I was putting myself in her place simply because I was attracted to the man. With Brokeback, I can put myself in either place and still have fun! And as for feeling drawn into the scene, hard to feel otherwise when the camera moves in so close you can see spit strings! I'm THERE.

Yes, it's unrealistic: I couldn't actually BE part of that scene because I'm female. On the other hand, I also couldn't be there because it's fictional and I'm allergic to horses. So what's the difference?

So that's what I learned about myself. That I actually CAN find movie sex scenes sexy regardless of orientation as long as they a) are well filmed, b) romantic, c) passionate and d) star Heath and Jake.

PS While I was writing this, you posted again, Chris. I've already droned on for a long time (I always feel like such a thread hog!), but my first thoughts are: certainly I think there is a fundamental need for humans to love that goes beyond sexuality. I would think anybody could connect with this movie in that way. But if you ask why I find the love scenes so erotic, well, there's my answer.

But also, I've wondered if, since 99.9999 percent of the movies ever made have featured straight characters, are gay people able to put themselves into those scenes? In other words, could you go through my process in reverse (reducing from two portals to one, unfortunately)? (BTW, in case anybody questions this, yes, that means men would have to put themselves in the actress' place and women the actor's. But again, what matters is not which person you IDENTIFY with, but which person you would rather TAKE THE PLACE OF.)

[Aussie Chris]

PS While I was writing this, you posted again, Chris. I've already droned on for a long time (I always feel like such a thread hog!), but my first thoughts are: certainly I think there is a fundamental need for humans to love that goes beyond sexuality. I would think anybody could connect with this movie in that way. But if you ask why I find the love scenes so erotic, well, there's my answer.

But also, I've wondered if, since 99.9999 percent of the movies ever made have featured straight characters, are gay people able to put themselves into those scenes? In other words, could you go through my process in reverse (reducing from two portals to one, unfortunately)? (BTW, in case anybody questions this, yes, that means men would have to put themselves in the actress' place and women the actor's. But again, what matters is not which person you IDENTIFY with, but which person you would rather TAKE THE PLACE OF.)

Hey there Katherine, great post, exactly the sort of thing I was looking to talk about.  And I love that you're [occasionally] a thread hog, because everything you write has such substance - or maybe because I tend to agree with you - anyway, whatever hog away my dear! 

Anyway, thanks for flipping it around on me.  I guess I first have to eliminate the same 99.9% of sex scenes that you do.  Rarely are they sexy for me, they seem abstractly stuck on because of some formulaic need to have them there.  Ironically, most non-romance films still "need" to have a sex scene.  To be honest, off the top of my head I can't think of a single sex scene that I actually find erotic.  I'm sure I have, I just can't think of any.  They always seem more like a plot device than about eroticism.

Ok, to make this work for me I need expand this into general romance (kissing etc) in order for me to identify with it.  I think the easy answer is that I mostly identify with [or take the place of] the woman in the scene.  It's actually a little tricky though for much the same reason that you could never have a relationship with Jack & Ennis, being female and all.  In straight films I have the same problem.  I guess, like you in Brokeback, I simply suspend disbelief momentarily and dive in as if I *was* a woman.

[ednbarby]

That's an excellent point, Katherine - I think the love scenes are so thrilling for me for primarily the same reason.  I can identify with both characters at once, and so I can imagine myself in either of their places in any given, uh, time.

And Chris, I do think that we do have a need for love as human beings that goes beyond sex.  Since I tend to see everything from an evolutionary standpoint, that need makes sense in that as human beings, our survival rates are probably higher when we mate for life.  And in order to mate for life, there needs to be something more there than great sex.  Physical passion fades over time, and if you then find you're with someone you can't stand talking to, it all goes out the window.

Like I said before, love to me is finding that one in million with whom you can be utterly yourself.  I think we all need to make that connection - to find the other half of our souls - because perhaps without it, our survival as a species would have been tenuous.  I mean, imagine if there were no such thing as that kind of love.  If we all walked around never finding or having a life partner.  Or even a series of long-term life partners.  I really don't see how we could have survived over the ages without it.  And it's not just about stronger men protecting weaker women.  It's not about that much at all.  It's about feeling like we're a part of something bigger than we are as individuals.  It's faith personified.  I do think we need that.

[nic]

Ooh - meaty discussion, here.     

Definitely!

That's why I love kissing scenes most of all when they're done right and the chemistry is real between the actors - because I think kissing is *much* more intimate than just the act itself, regardless of whether the act is gay, straight or lesbian.  That's why the reunion kiss (and their very first kiss) rocks my world and gives me the hands-free sensation every time.  Because it's intimate, and it's real.  But I must also say that their first consummation turns me on, too, because there's so much very believable passion in it.

I love kissing scenes too & the reunion scene kiss is almost undescribable: sexy as hell but also touching because there's so much emotion behind it.  (fingers crossed it wins the MTV best kiss award)

And as far as the romance angle, I think it's safe to say that women as a rule are much more into love stories than straight men.

True.  In fact, I think slash fiction (males involved with each other romantically and/or sexually) equals the popularity that Mills & Boon romance "novels" used to have.  Two guys together is somehow extra romantic because they are both guys and have to overcome any inherited machoness to be able to get together.  There is also a lot of first-time slash fiction around and that cashes in on the extra added attraction of evoking the feelings of the idealised first time making love. 

The fact that a lot of women like men together has been overlooked for a long time and women's sexuality is still more shrouded in taboo/mystery/secrecy/perceived roles/etc & the fact there is still a lot of unknowns about it, more so than for men's sexuality. One reason I like slash is because I can relax into it without the risk of reading about something I know I wouldn't like if I were the woman on the receiving end, eg "oh no, I tried that once & it just didn't work" or "uh-uh, that wouldn't work - his legs would get in the way"! I am able to focus completely on the character's enjoyment and that is where skilled writing comes in!

Back to the original point: yeah, I do think an appreciation of all things romantic & of love contribute to getting over the gender/sexuality issue of liking BBM IF it is an issue in the first place. 

nic

[nic]

Within this context of this discussion, I'm not convinced that it is merely about being able to identify with the missed opportunities of the characters, etc, etc.  I'm happy to accept that there are primal responses involved that go beyond gender and orientation, but are we saying that romance *is* primal?  Or put another way, is there a fundamental need by humans to love and be loved that goes beyond sexuality? 

This thread is giving the old grey matter a work out!   

The need for love has been studied extensively by those with the appropriate "-ologies"!  I know of one school of thought that thinks finding a partner is something to do with the need to replace the figure that raised you as a child, to have a care-giver, someone to appreciate you, help you, reassure you, all sorts of psychological stuff and falling in love is how nature dresses it up for us.  Unfortunately I don't know enough to elaborate but this reasoning would go beyond sexuality (in that a replacement figure is needed regardless of gender).

[Aussie Chris]

This thread is giving the old grey matter a work out!   

He he, don't hurt yourself now!    I loved your post nic, and I fully agree with you.  My next ponderer though is this: We (still) talk about women being emotionally motivated and men being physically motivated, so much so that it's cliched.  But do you think things are changing such that men are becoming more like women (at least emotioally)?  A female friend of mine asked me over dinner tonight if I considered myself more like a woman (my motivations, likes and dislikes, etc), and with some discomfort I suggested that maybe I do.  And if there was any doubt, BBM took care of that!  But enough about me, I wonder if anyone is experiencing this or noticing it generally in others?  Is the cliche destined for the scrap heap?

[serious crayons]

Wow, thanks, Chris. You are so nice. And pretty substantive yourself, I might add. For example, this

I guess I first have to eliminate the same 99.9% of sex scenes that you do.  Rarely are they sexy for me, they seem abstractly stuck on because of some formulaic need to have them there.  Ironically, most non-romance films still "need" to have a sex scene.  To be honest, off the top of my head I can't think of a single sex scene that I actually find erotic.  I'm sure I have, I just can't think of any.  They always seem more like a plot device than about eroticism.

is SO true. Every movie about robots attacking humans or whatever seems to have an obligatory romantic subplot tacked on. And why bother, I've always wondered, if the couple is so lacking in chemistry and the romance so perfunctory?

But even movies in which romance is ostensibly the whole point usually fall flat for me. I like romantic comedies, they can be cheery and cute, the actors are usually appealing. But erotic? Hardly at all. And romantic dramas -- you'd think I must have found some of those a turn on, but I honestly can't think of any either. The only recent sex scene that I can remember finding the least bit hot was the one in "Cold Mountain." But even that one I can't imagine myself watching over and over on YouTube.

So despite my rational explanation above, I actually am still a little mystified about what makes Brokeback so sexy. Obviously it's very beautiful and well done, and I think everybody involved must have been trying hard for that -- not only for the usual artistic reasons but also because they wanted to make homosexuality look good to a "crossover" audience. Also, what you said, Nic, is very true -- seeing men in movies express strong emotion and vulnerability for a change is powerful.

But is their being gay a factor in my response? To be honest, I just can't tell. Certainly that's what makes the story unusual and interesting. It also could be the other way around, maybe my awareness that Heath and Jake are (apparently) straight in real life makes a difference. But I'll have to admit that lately I find watching men and women together kind of boring. That's scary! I hope it's just a temporary result of my obsession.

In any case, I should note that not all straight women I know find the movie sexy; for some, I think orientation is a barrier. This is a pretty self-selected group here at BetterMost.

I remember getting in one of those debates over on imdb about whether it's a universal love story or a gay love story. The straight people were arguing, of course, that it was universal, otherwise how could they connect with it? And a gay man replied something like, hey, this is the first really big great movie about a gay romance, let us have it. And I said, "No fair! You guys get the best one!" I was being funny, partly, but I was also being completely truthful.

PS Chris, I see that once again you've posted since I wrote this, and the conversation has moved on somewhat. I do hope maybe Brokeback will help open up more possibilities for male expression in movies.

[j.U.d.E.]

Aaaah! Bumping for later..

~ j U d E

[nic]

He he, don't hurt yourself now!    I loved your post nic, and I fully agree with you.  My next ponderer though is this: We (still) talk about women being emotionally motivated and men being physically motivated, so much so that it's cliched.  But do you think things are changing such that men are becoming more like women (at least emotioally)?  A female friend of mine asked me over dinner tonight if I considered myself more like a woman (my motivations, likes and dislikes, etc), and with some discomfort I suggested that maybe I do.  And if there was any doubt, BBM took care of that!  But enough about me, I wonder if anyone is experiencing this or noticing it generally in others?  Is the cliche destined for the scrap heap?

I hadn't specifically thought about it before but I would say it is probably the case that men are now more than ever able to express their emotional side, which could be because they always had it but had to hide it before or because the male role has actually changed.  Maybe a bit of both is true.  Certainly society has changed a lot, with women now also being major breadwinners, able to compete in most professional arenas (not fully equally yet mind!) , men more involved in bringing up children, men becoming more aware of their appearance (there is a thread about body image on this very site!), more visibility of gay men, etc.  In my lifetime there has been talk of the "new man" (a staight phenomena) and recently the "metrosexual" man (straight again). 

Is the change a good thing? Yes, hopefully if we are more alike we understand each other better is my simplistic naive answer! It's alll part of the unavoidale human melting point - we are all becoming more alike in every way and that now includes male & female.  Just like there are groups & societies to preserve ethnic & historic traditions soon there will be measures to preserve the traditional male & female roles!  Imagine re-enactment groups recreating a domestic scene from the 1950s : a woman serving the husband his cocktail as he gets home from work, handing him the newspaper & his slippers so he can relax while she goes off to prepare the elaborate evening meal !

I digress.   A related question to you to end on : are women becoming more like men?

nic

[Aussie Chris]

So despite my rational explanation above, I actually am still a little mystified about what makes Brokeback so sexy. Obviously it's very beautiful and well done, and I think everybody involved must have been trying hard for that -- not only for the usual artistic reasons but also because they wanted to make homosexuality look good to a "crossover" audience. Also, what you said, Nic, is very true -- seeing men in movies express strong emotion and vulnerability for a change is powerful.

Masculine vulnerability is a really tricky thing isn't it?  It needs to be matched with "virility" otherwise it comes across as weakness.  But we don't see Jack and Ennis as emotionally weak do we?  Quite the opposite.

But is their being gay a factor in my response? To be honest, I just can't tell. Certainly that's what makes the story unusual and interesting. It also could be the other way around, maybe my awareness that Heath and Jake are (apparently) straight in real life makes a difference. But I'll have to admit that lately I find watching men and women together kind of boring. That's scary! I hope it's just a temporary result of my obsession.

Probably temporary, but then again the bar may have been raised here.  I myself would be more than happy to see straight-romance *if* it was done with the degree of integrity and honesty that it was in Brokeback.  I think the boredom factor comes from us becoming jaded with the knowledge that there are two actors on the screen, in a contrived "time for the sex-scene" part of the movie, where it's not much more than a simulation of intimacy.  They're a bit like breast implants - some people like them (I guess) but they're only superficial.  Yawn, pass the pop-corn why don't you...

In any case, I should note that not all straight women I know find the movie sexy; for some, I think orientation is a barrier. This is a pretty self-selected group here at BetterMost.

Their loss in my opinion.  But sympathetically, I wonder what really moves these people?  Nothing?  God that would be awful.  Personally, I wouldn't give up the fact that I see beauty and cry in appreciation of it for all the tea in China.  As for the gay/universal love story debate, for goodness sake, is that all this film is to them?  Property?  Btw, I loved your joke about "No fair", that's so cute!

PS Chris, I see that once again you've posted since I wrote this, and the conversation has moved on somewhat. I do hope maybe Brokeback will help open up more possibilities for male expression in movies.

Oh God yes please...

[Aussie Chris]

Is the change a good thing? Yes, hopefully if we are more alike we understand each other better is my simplistic naive answer! It's alll part of the unavoidale human melting point - we are all becoming more alike in every way and that now includes male & female.  Just like there are groups & societies to preserve ethnic & historic traditions soon there will be measures to preserve the traditional male & female roles!  Imagine re-enactment groups recreating a domestic scene from the 1950s : a woman serving the husband his cocktail as he gets home from work, handing him the newspaper & his slippers so he can relax while she goes off to prepare the elaborate evening meal !

Ha ha, re-enacting the 1950's stereotypes?  Don't we just have to watch Happy days for this?  Actually Pleasantville does this quite well for me, although it uses an extreme 1950's sitcom view of the 1950, I still find the Betty character so endearing (Joan Allen is just brilliant).

I digress.   A related question to you to end on : are women becoming more like men?

Boy, well I guess I've got to get as good as I give it here don't I?  You know I have thought about this.  I've always been "attracted" to strong women.  My best friend is very strong and I value her opinion more than just about anyone in the world.  Not strong in overbearing or demanding way, it's more the intangible quality of really being present in this world.  So many people in the world (not just women) seem to be more "filler" to me than anything else.  They go through life and participate in their own way, but without really impacting it.  I guess I seek out the women that have an impact and associate with them (flying with the eagles and all that jazz).  I think these women are certainly becoming more common-place.  If I were to say how women are changing on the whole, it would be in this way rather than being more like men.

Actually there are more and more women that are acting like men (read arrogant).  I work in a large corporation (by Australian standards) and there are quite a lot of women in power here.  Most are brilliant, but then you get those that overcompensate.  You can pick 'em a mile off, but they're usually so shallow that they don't even realise that they are susceptible to flattery more than they should.  In other words, just make them feel like the boss and they're usually happy, but stay out of their way when they're not.

I hadn't specifically thought about it before but I would say it is probably the case that men are now more than ever able to express their emotional side, which could be because they always had it but had to hide it before or because the male role has actually changed.  Maybe a bit of both is true.  Certainly society has changed a lot, with women now also being major breadwinners, able to compete in most professional arenas (not fully equally yet mind!) , men more involved in bringing up children, men becoming more aware of their appearance (there is a thread about body image on this very site!), more visibility of gay men, etc.  In my lifetime there has been talk of the "new man" (a straight phenomena) and recently the "metro-sexual" man (straight again).

In a very real way I like to think that the emergence of gays in society is helping this along.  I know that many of my long term (straight) male friends have matured immensely over the years.  I made it one of my rules that I would treat their heterosexuality with as much respect as I wanted my homosexuality to be treated.  That means not thinking that everyone is gay they just don’t know it yet, and "bi-curious" is not my prerogative to explore or encourage (I have had a couple of those requests though).  My friends and I can hug, cuddle, and even kiss (hello/goodbye), at least in an appropriate environment.  For these men I had to establish very strong integrity borders around how I acted around them.  I had to make sure that I never made them feel uncomfortable or think that I was (shall we say) being "too friendly".  With my friends it was always clear in word and deed that our affection was very real but completely platonic, and with that knowledge we were free to express it without fear.

The key word here is *integrity*.  When it becomes part of your core values and you demonstrate it on a daily basis, people begin to trust you instinctively and their defences are free to be lowered little by little.  But it is at that moment when people that are just giving lip-service to integrity are caught out, and I think they are the ones that give the anti-gay movement so much ammunition.  Thankfully I have a pretty good integrity-radar when it comes to people like that - you just have to watch their eyes!

[nic]

Actually there are more and more women that are acting like men (read arrogant). 

I have heard this before and think it is probably true, but in defence of my gender to a certain point, female emancipation is still fairly new.  There are not many role models, and the higher you go in a career or profession the fewer they become.  So I think it is partly due to lack of experience and knowledge as to how to act.  Overcompensation is very common when one feels insecure. 

In a very real way I like to think that the emergence of gays in society is helping this along. 

I'd agree, in the sense that it increases awareness of alternate lifestyles and increases tolerance, in a similar way to racial integration and increasing opportunities for women, ie everyone becomes more knowledgable about their fellow humans and knowledge removes fear of the unknown so should hopefully make everything better overall (she says with her rose-tinted contacts in!).

I haven't got another question this time so you get off easy!

nic

[EnnisDelMar]

"What do you think makes this movie so romantic?"

That it brings people together who would've never known each other had it not been for their consensual love of the film.

[serious crayons]

"That it brings people together who would've never known each other had it not been for their consensual love of the film.

That's a nice thing to say, Brandon! And you're right!

[EnnisDelMar]

Thanks

[kirkmusic]

Personally I've never found this movie to be all that romantic.  Really.  And I've always seen that as a strength.  I've said it before in other threads so I'll be brief here.  Lee showed us as much of the love as was necessary to make us believe it and no more.  Last time I watched TentScene2 I did so at 1/4 speed because it's so darn short, as are all of their expressions of affection.  The whole point was that their emotions had to be kept undercover, and what a brilliant way to get that across.

As to Barb's comment regarding peoples' drive to pair up, for me it's a matter of spiritual development.  When you're going through life without a partner, you can have a great group of friends who support you and vice versa, and a fulfilling job and a faith that keeps you connected to the bigger picture, and you can feel whole and complete and enormously satisfied.  Add to that someone with whom you share a committed relationship, suddenly you're learning all new lessons about trust and devotion and intimacy and the energy in your life skyrockets even further.  The immediate presence of a person who, for you, is a bridge to love itself, brings you closer to God, as I believe God and love to be the same thing.  You can get there on your own.  Having a partner makes it easier to stay there.  And isn't it so much better to share it?

[serious crayons]

Interesting perspective, Kirk! The filmmakers certainly are stingy with the love scenes. Not only does that show that they had to be undercover (as opposed to under covers), but also, it leaves the audience craving more (many of us, anyway), which helps us empathize with the way Ennis and Jack always wanted more. Never enough time, never enough frames of film, even at 1/4 speed ...

I see that as a strength, too, torturous as it is. And I also see a HUGE strength in their refusal to be over-the-top emotional or sentimental or maudlin, as this kind of story can easily get.

But I still think it's extremely romantic. And by that I mean the movie makes us care SO MUCH about what happens to Ennis and Jack as a couple. No other love story in my memory does that as well. And that withholding -- of love scenes, romantic words, etc. -- is part of the way they accomplish it.

[TJ]

While the news commentators and the TV comedians/talk-show hosts called the movie a gay movie and even mocked it, Focus Features and Universal Studios promoted it in newspaper and magazines and TV spots as a love story where two best buddies had happy marriages.

[Aussie Chris]

As to Barb's comment regarding peoples' drive to pair up, for me it's a matter of spiritual development.  When you're going through life without a partner, you can have a great group of friends who support you and vice versa, and a fulfilling job and a faith that keeps you connected to the bigger picture, and you can feel whole and complete and enormously satisfied.  Add to that someone with whom you share a committed relationship, suddenly you're learning all new lessons about trust and devotion and intimacy and the energy in your life skyrockets even further.  The immediate presence of a person who, for you, is a bridge to love itself, brings you closer to God, as I believe God and love to be the same thing.  You can get there on your own.  Having a partner makes it easier to stay there.  And isn't it so much better to share it?

A beautiful way of describing it kirk, I totally agree with you.  I wish I could say something to add to this without doing the "yeah what he said" thing, but you have it in a nutshell: God = Love, and everything else is a poor reflection of this simple truth.

[nakymaton]

Meryl posted this in the "Double Meanings" thread in the Open forum, but I think that my response might fit better here...

This is what I love about Movie Ennis and Jack.  They don't just treat the sex as recreational, as in the story.  There's a silent acknowledgement of its seriousness, as the eye contact and tender kissing in the second tent scene shows.  Without this, I know I wouldn't have cared as much about them, cried over them, been haunted by them (and over-analyzed them).  I'm just really, really glad Ang Lee knew how important this was and insisted on including it, not to mention the fact that in Heath and Jake we were given actors who could make it all work so beautifully.

That's a good point, though I'm going to turn around and try to defend the story in a moment.

I think that, for me, the movie does an amazing job of portraying love without over-doing it. It's just... so restrained, I guess. Perhaps that's why so many people don't get it; personally, I hate being beaten over the head with emotions. I hate being told what to feel. And for me, at least, the movie gives me just the right amount of information, so I can project my own interpretations onto them. I feel more strongly when I'm able to do that, I think.

(I also think that the tragedy - the restrained, understated tragedy - is part of why I respond so strongly to the story. I'm kind of worried about what that says about me, actually. I say that I want a happy ending... but, you know, I'm perfectly aware that a lot of fan fiction writers have given them happy endings. But I haven't read any of the stories, because I think, at some level, that I don't like happy endings, or don't believe that they really happen. Even though I don't have a particularly unhappy or tragic life myself to make me feel that way. And it feels... well, wrong, a bit, to appreciate suffering more than happiness. I'm still trying to work through whether I'm a Bad Person for enjoying the sadness.)

As for a defense of the story. One of the fascinating things about the story for me was that, although the sex on the mountain seemed recreational, we start learning at the end of the story that there was more to it than that. There's the description of the dozy embrace, Jack's wish to have his ashes scattered on the mountain, and then there are the shirts. And I wonder if the emotional distance isn't partly a writing technique -- we're seeing the story from Ennis's POV, and Ennis is deeply in denial about what is really going on between him and Jack. I found that intriguing, and really moving, personally; the ending of the story made me want to go back and search for the hints of the love on the mountain, or to figure out what the summer might have been like from Jack's POV. The movie, actually, exactly fills those gaps for me -- it shows the tenderness in real time, and gives me the answers I wanted from the story.

[serious crayons]

As for a defense of the story. One of the fascinating things about the story for me was that, although the sex on the mountain seemed recreational, we start learning at the end of the story that there was more to it than that. There's the description of the dozy embrace, Jack's wish to have his ashes scattered on the mountain, and then there are the shirts. And I wonder if the emotional distance isn't partly a writing technique -- we're seeing the story from Ennis's POV, and Ennis is deeply in denial about what is really going on between him and Jack. I found that intriguing, and really moving, personally; the ending of the story made me want to go back and search for the hints of the love on the mountain, or to figure out what the summer might have been like from Jack's POV. The movie, actually, exactly fills those gaps for me -- it shows the tenderness in real time, and gives me the answers I wanted from the story.

Hmm. I agreed with Meryl's post back on the other thread, but I can see your point, Mel. The story did not have nearly the same effect on me that the movie did. But I know you've talked about how much you appreciated it and, in light of this explanation, your reaction makes sense.

[JennyC]

(I also think that the tragedy - the restrained, understated tragedy - is part of why I respond so strongly to the story. I'm kind of worried about what that says about me, actually. I say that I want a happy ending... but, you know, I'm perfectly aware that a lot of fan fiction writers have given them happy endings. But I haven't read any of the stories, because I think, at some level, that I don't like happy endings, or don't believe that they really happen. Even though I don't have a particularly unhappy or tragic life myself to make me feel that way. And it feels... well, wrong, a bit, to appreciate suffering more than happiness. I'm still trying to work through whether I'm a Bad Person for enjoying the sadness.)

Don’t feel bad.  We all respond more strongly to tragedy than happy endings.  Most of the great literatures are tragedies.  Love and lost is the forever topic that most people can relate to.  It’s not that we appreciate suffering more than happiness; it’s through the suffering that we understand Ennis and Jack, and hence the empathy.   The story will not have the same impact had it been a happy ending.  We all learn to care for these characters deeply as our heart aches with their 20 years journey, and then you start to think about the what ifs and wish them a happy ending.

[kirkmusic]

Boy, I'm behind.  Six months later I'm responding.

I think Jenny's got something there.  When AFI did their list of the best love stories on film, I believe the top 5 were West Side Story, Casablanca, The Way We Were, Roman Holiday, and Love Story, and NONE of them end well.  Or at least the lovers aren't together in the end.

[delalluvia]

What Kirk said.  Sometimes the romance comes from the tragedy of the characters and their story.  You feel their emotions more.  Which ties into this next:

Quote from: nakymaton on June 05, 2006, 02:19:00 pm
(I also think that the tragedy - the restrained, understated tragedy - is part of why I respond so strongly to the story. I'm kind of worried about what that says about me, actually. I say that I want a happy ending... but, you know, I'm perfectly aware that a lot of fan fiction writers have given them happy endings. But I haven't read any of the stories, because I think, at some level, that I don't like happy endings, or don't believe that they really happen. Even though I don't have a particularly unhappy or tragic life myself to make me feel that way. And it feels... well, wrong, a bit, to appreciate suffering more than happiness. I'm still trying to work through whether I'm a Bad Person for enjoying the sadness.)

Don’t feel bad.  We all respond more strongly to tragedy than happy endings.  Most of the great literatures are tragedies.  Love and lost is the forever topic that most people can relate to.  It’s not that we appreciate suffering more than happiness; it’s through the suffering that we understand Ennis and Jack, and hence the empathy.   The story will not have the same impact had it been a happy ending.  We all learn to care for these characters deeply as our heart aches with their 20 years journey, and then you start to think about the what ifs and wish them a happy ending.