Stay Home.

[opinionista]

Hi opinionista,

Not sure why you would feel sorry for her.  If you missed it, she admitted she had no intention of ever MARRYING anyone.  What she wanted - and got - was a free trip to the U.S. so she could be with her boyfriend.

In case you also missed it, she took my relative's money under false pretenses and when he tried to right the wrong by sending her home, she also took that money as well and jumped ship.

Then she called to make fun of him.

This relative of mine - misguided or not - was in love with her.  So you also got his feelings wrapped up in this.

And you tell me you feel sorry for her.

OK, to each their own.
, um, yeah.

First of all, there was no need to be so nasty. I didn't mean to offend you. But it seemed to me that you brought up that relative of your's story to demonize immigrants in general.

You know, I'm sorry about your relative's feelings and i honestly think she didn't have a right to do what she did. But your story has nothing to do with the immigration issue. It is just a love story gone awry in which one of the parts happened to be an immigrant. He could've had the same experience with an american woman. 

And yes, I feel sorry for her because a person who does that kind of things is someone who didn't have healthy/happy upbringing. But that doesn't mean I condone her acts, but I do try to understand the situation she might be in and why she behaves the way she does. Maybe she's a bad person because bad people do exist, but she could also be a very troubled young woman.

There's too much hatred in the world already and we cannot come and think all immigrants are bad people because of stories like this one.

[sparkle_motion]

I think it comes down to whether you see immigrants as equals. It seems that some think that because they were born on american soil they should be allowed sole access to a better life. All people should be given the opportunity, no matter on which land you were born, to have a better life. Period.

[starboardlight]

This is very interesting  I'm not sure it would work well.  Many companies outsource in order to cut overhead.  There is a lot of abuse in 3rd world countries - sweat shops, Kathy Gifford, Union Carbide etc - when this kind of thing happens.  Those companies do business in certain areas because the worker protection laws are lax or non-existent.  This is how they save money.  If companies that outsourced overseas or in south of the border countries were held to the same stringent standards of safety, pay scale, benefits etc., as here in the U.S. it would no longer be cost-effective to outsource.

Also, companies are very hesitant to invest in Mexico after the last nationalization of everything seized American investments in that country.

you're right it wouldn't work, because this country has absolutely no interesting solving the issue, only to express anger and scape-goating immigrants. like i keep saying the issue is deeper than criminalizing immigrants and boarder control. Sweat shops offend American sensibilities, and yet those same people who would have been in sweat shops risking life and limbs to cross the boarder don't get any compassion. There are tough choices to make, but most Americans are not willing to even consider them. Like I keep saying, this country is only interested in getting angry, and our leaders exploit that for political purposes.

[Sheyne]

Hi opinionista,

Not sure why you would feel sorry for her.  If you missed it, she admitted she had no intention of ever MARRYING anyone.  What she wanted - and got - was a free trip to the U.S. so she could be with her boyfriend.

In case you also missed it, she took my relative's money under false pretenses and when he tried to right the wrong by sending her home, she also took that money as well and jumped ship.
Then she called to make fun of him.
This relative of mine - misguided or not - was in love with her.  So you also got his feelings wrapped up in this.

And you tell me you feel sorry for her.

Well actually, Del, I kinda felt sorry for her too. I don't see the world as black and white. There is always grey area. I think that our ability to be compassionate and our ability to forgive is one of few things that separate us from animals. People who live their lives without these things often live LIKE animals.

I'm not a religious person, by the way. But I believe in Karma, as I have seen - firsthand - that it is a very real thing. You cannot afford to be so hardass about the people that wrong you. Pity them for goodness sake, but don't condemn them. If people wrong you, they WILL be dealt with. You may not see it for yourself but it happens. I know of a girl who was raped by her grandfather - within 10 years of it happening, the man had arthritis in both hands so badly he couldn't hold a coffee cup. His eyesight deteriorated to the point he was legally blind. He was also impotent. Not a bad turnaround from a man who was otherwise very healthy, huh? And he died 15 years after that, very slowly and painfully. And do you know what? She not only visited his deathbed - twice - but she forgave him for he did to her, cause she could see that he needed it.

So you can be bitter and vindictive about immigrants because of one that you knew - albeit in a roundabout way - but why not take a broader view? My friend didn't hate her grandfather for what he did to her - in fact, she pondered what on earth could have happened to this man that he would DO such a thing to her.

And Sparkle - we should ALL see immigrants as equals. In fact, I cannot conceive of the person who'd dare look down their noses at those who've had a less fortunate life. What an arsehole they'd have to be! We definitely agree on that.  Its like the bullshit social class hierarchy that I battle with everyday as a school teacher. You see it in 6 and 7 year olds these days - no kid is going to walk around with their eyes downcast in my classroom cause they come from a poor background. The fact that its their instinct to do so pisses me off beyond the telling of it.

You wanna get a fire in your belly about something, Del? Get it about HELPING these people, not keeping your boot on top of their heads.

[delalluvia]

rtprod,

I think you're really missing the boat.  You refuse to acknowledge that poor people have and continue to, turn around things in their own countries whether violently or not

You refuse to acknowledge the facts of all the revolutions I've mentioned.

I'm beginning to think you're avoiding discussing these because they will ruin your argument about how people are just too poor to make any changes in their countries.

And honestly, it's beginning to smack of insulting to those people who actually did stand up and fight for change in their own countries.

"Wait!  You can't stand up and try to change your country!  You have to remain poor and downtrodden and oppressed so you can be rescued!"

Do I have a connection to this in anyway?

I grew up in a neighborhood full of illegal immigrants.  1/2 mile from the projects (govt housing) they call 'Little Mexico'.  They were my next door neighbors, the people across the street, my customers, some were my relatives.  My mother still lives there and she has illegal immigrants as neighbors.

And one of my ex-uncles by marriage used to be of those lovely purveyors of human misery - a coyote.  One of those who takes money from Mexican Nationals to smuggle them across the border.  So yes, my connection is pretty close.  Try nearly 3 decades close of living this.

Sheyne suggested I'm keeping my boot on top of their heads by not wanting to help them.

How about the poor people in this country?

We have poor here you know.  Quite a few of them.  The poor people in the South who were living on welfare and displaced by the hurricanes?  The dirt poor of the Appalachia regions?  Or finally, my own relatives, one branch of which was so poor, they couldn't afford to bury their loved one and the hat got passed around to the entire family to try to collect enough money.  Our public education system is a shambles, etc.. I get a fire in my belly, Sheyne, about helping all of them.

Apparently my compassion for them doesn't count? 

I might suggest the opposite.  That you're keeping your boot on top of illegal immigrants heads by implying that they're too poor to do anything and really need to go into a sort of patronage system with all the 'rich' people in the U.S. because they're really helpless. 

Do you understand how condescending and insulting that sounds?

star,

'Solving the issue'...you mean solving the problem of illegal immigration?  To fix the problem, instead of allowing illegal immigration and making those here citizens, that won't stop anything.  You're right.  That's only treating the symptoms and not the cause.  Which is, in this part of the country, the Mexican government/economy.

Now an earlier poster just lambasted the U.S. by our habit of going into countries who didn't ask for any help or want any changes in their way of doing things and forcing democracy on them.

Now, short of doing that since the U.S. is 'bad' for doing that, what do you suggest the U.S. do with the Mexican economy that doesn't require making them like us so that the Mexican nationals do not feel they have to cross the border?

opinionista and sheyne,

I wasn't mad, just confused.  I don't feel sorry for thieves who steal from hardworking people.  I didn't feel sorry for her because what she was doing was running a scam.  She was forming e-mail relationships with more than one man in the U.S. and whoever coughed up the money and airline ticket was the one she was going to 'marry'.  So she came here with no intention of following through, no sincerity, no honesty.  And when she wanted to meet her friend at the airport, she wanted to take my in-law's car.  Alone.

Would she have come back?  Or would he have been out a car as well?

Karma did catch up with her.  It put her boyfriend in jail, left her penniless and pregnant.

I consider it an immigration issue because she probably did prey on the sympathies of my in-law, but it was dishonest from the get-go.  Yes, he could have been bilked by some woman here, but not to become a citizen. 

sparkle

It seems that some think that because they were born on american soil they should be allowed sole access to a better life.

Do people think that in the U.K., France, Italy, Greece, Australia, etc?  Those are nice places to live too, I'm sure.

All people should be given the opportunity, no matter on which land you were born, to have a better life. Period.

Agreed.  And you have to work for it.  Make your country a better place to live if it is not.  Hard to do, but it's done by people with great vision and great determination.  That's why they're venerated, because they fought to make a difference.

[JennyC]

Everyone deserves a pat on the back for your compassion, your humanity, and your progressive views.  The first time I wanted to say that, there is part of me meant it sarcastically, but I do mean it sincerely now, very sincerely. We are a compassionate group of people that share progressive views on many social issues (You do know that we are minority in the US, right?) Even the people who disagree with you on certain things are also compassionate on human suffering.  Let’s not dismiss that.

As the thread grows, I see the discussion getting more and more polarized. There is the tendency to either demonize illegal immigrants as whole, or demonize anyone who suggests that there should be some control on immigrants.  Seems to me that “enforcement” or “control” are all taboo to be mentioned here.

I am not defending Del, as she is more than capable of defending herself, and I do disagree with her on some of her arguments. But she does have some valid points from the other side of the fence.  People tend to jump on certain controversial comments she made, but fails to recognize some of the valid points she presented.  Then the argument just got more heated. 

As to me, I don’t quite meet eye to eye with the rest of you on this issue either. I have asked more than once that if US can really afford to have a sustainable open door immigration policy, if US economy (even it’s the largest one in the world, it’s still has boundaries) and available resource can support such a policy.  What if we are talking about 1 billion immigrants who want to come here, can you still whole heartily welcome them. No one address that.  I don’t know whether because it’s such a dumb ass question, or because it really contradicts your ideology.

I share your ideology and its principle. Ideology is always grand, but ideology alone does not solve real world problems. There are a lot of ideology talks here, but not much analysis in the context of the issues and constrains we are facing today.  A policy or principle not only needs to address the current issue, but also gives consideration to the future implications.

Sheyne mentioned that people are in their Ivory Tower when talking about the issues in Africa or South America, very true.  On the other hand, my friends, aren’t we also in our own Ivory Tower to think that we can truly accommodate everyone’s (I mean everyone) pursuit of better life here.  Supply and Demand, it’s as simple as that. You need to have rules to regulate the demand. When you have to have rule, then you need to implement it and enforce it, because it’s the only way that it can be fair to everyone. You can not on one hand address the existing issue, but not to address the source of the problem.  It will only become an on-going problem. I just do not see how you can get around the obvious.  Am I so blind not seeing the reasons that you see?

My dear CT friends, people say that you should not discuss politics and religion with your friends.  It’s all dandy when everyone is in agreement, but can we really handle our differences?  Guess we are all human…

[delalluvia]

Well said, Jenny.

[starboardlight]

'Solving the issue'...you mean solving the problem of illegal immigration?  To fix the problem, instead of allowing illegal immigration and making those here citizens, that won't stop anything.  You're right.  That's only treating the symptoms and not the cause.  Which is, in this part of the country, the Mexican government/economy.

Now an earlier poster just lambasted the U.S. by our habit of going into countries who didn't ask for any help or want any changes in their way of doing things and forcing democracy on them.

Now, short of doing that since the U.S. is 'bad' for doing that, what do you suggest the U.S. do with the Mexican economy that doesn't require making them like us so that the Mexican nationals do not feel they have to cross the border?

it wouldn't have to be that extreme. I go back to India and China as examples. As they are now, they're no where near being just like the US, and we didn't force democracy on either of those countries. Free trading simply allowed these countries to develop to a point where their citizens saw hope in their future. I think allowing some of the jobs to migrate down south would help. But we also need to get the leaders of Mexico to address the issue from that side of the boarder too. There could be a harder push to help people find jobs and housing in Mexico. Just as FDR's WPA efforts helped American through the depression, Mexico could start similar campaigns, with American help. I definitely don't advocate American going in and dictating anything, but a cooperations could be reached.

Would allowing our manufacturing jobs to migrate down, be so bad? Sure there'll be issues with sweatshops, but that's something that we can deal with as consumers making informed choices (consumer advocacy did push for Nike, Gap, Mattel, among other companies and their off shore manufacturing plants  to adopt more worker friendly processes), as well as something the Mexican workers have to determine for themselves. In addition, protectionism is not an economic policy that can be sustained very long in a global economy anyway. Some Americans will lose jobs as these jobs migrate downward, but that's not new, as time and technology evolves. We seen it through out the industrial age. People adapt as new technology create new jobs.

[JennyC]

Del,

As a friend, I still have to respectfully disagree with some of your views on current illegal immigrants.  Based on my experience, immigrants (legal or illegal) are general hard working and law biding members of the society, because they cherish the opportunity they get.  It sounds like you have known more than your share of bad apples, but that can not be generalized to the entire immigrants.  The illegal immigrants do play an important role in today’s economy, and I don’t think we can easily dismiss their contribution to the economy.  Without them, we will feel the impact in our everyday life, particularly where you are and where I am.  That said, I don’t think you have suggested deportation is the right solution.

I am not looking to get into argument with you .  You are entitled to your opinion. If we can not convince each other, that’s fine, at least we know where we are coming from (I mean the area).   My focus on this issue is more on what we should do to improve the current situation, hence the enforcement aspect and provide current illegal immigrants means to legalize their status.

Talk to you guys later, if you are still interested in continue the discussion in a less confrontational way.

[delalluvia]

Del,
As a friend, I still have to respectfully disagree with some of your views on current illegal immigrants.  Based on my experience, immigrants (legal or illegal) are general hard working and law biding members of the society, because they cherish the opportunity they get.  It sounds like you have known more than your share of bad apples, but that can not be generalized to the entire immigrants.  The illegal immigrants do play an important role in today’s economy, and I don’t think we can easily dismiss their contribution to the economy.  Without them, we will feel the impact in our everyday life, particularly where you are and where I am.  That said, I don’t think you have suggested deportation is the right solution.

I am not looking to get into argument with you .  You are entitled to your opinion. If we can not convince each other, that’s fine, at least we know where we are coming from (I mean the area).   My focus on this issue is more on what we should do to improve the current situation, hence the enforcement aspect and provide current illegal immigrants means to legalize their status.

Talk to you guys later, if you are still interested in continue the discussion in a less confrontational way.

Hiya Jenny,

No offense taken.  There really isn't a consensus on how to handle the situation.  And while I agree that our current administration has dragged this issue out in the spotlight in yet another opportunity to polarize the nation, it IS a problem that has been ongoing for decades that has never been adequately addressed and it needs to be.

Perhaps it's that the closer you are to the border and you see how heavily impacted social services/schools and neighborhoods are by the influx of illegal immigration, the more obvious it becomes that this isn't an innocuous situation that our society can - as a whole - keep absorbing without economic repercussions.

I've never suggested we ship illegal immigrants home, I have nothing against legal immigrants.  Yes, I have had many bad experiences with illegal immigrants over the decades.

I wondered earlier, if rtprod's excellent experiences with illegal immigrants had to do with the fact that he is, indeed, a white male and that many of my bad experiences came from the fact that I am not.  In the Hispanic community, the patriarchy is alive and well.

But I don't think they are ALL bad people, of course not.

I just don't tend to idealize people.  I don't care who they are or what they've been through.

As has been pointed out to me, illegal immigrants are humans too and as such not everyone is a saintly, hard-working soul who only wants to do good and not all of them are skanky conwomen.  They are people just like everyone else.

They can be the carload of young men who wrecked my car and drove off without bothering to see if I had even survived the crash and they can be Ahmed the manager of the convenience store who saw the whole thing and ran out to help me and offered to be a witness if I ever caught the guys.

As for the impact of their work, I would be very interested in reading any material/articles etc on exactly what that amounts to.  I'm fairly sure there should be SOMEthing coming out soon that says what we as a nation lost dollar-wise on the day they left work.  After all, we get little news blips about how much work dollars were lost when the White Sox won the World Series or people took off to go see 'The Phantom Menace' back in '99 and this is a bit more important than that.

I don't think making them citizens will solve any problems.  We will just have 11 milliion new citizens and the illegal immigration will continue.  As I suggested to star, to fix the influx we have to make - at least in the south - Mexico a good place to live and work.

What I see as an economic issue is that many - not all - but many are essentially unslkilled labor.  Such jobs are rapidly falling by the wayside - assembly plants are closing, textile mills are long gone, many agricultural jobs have been turned over to mechanization, etc - I wonder if there is much of a future for such jobs and job holders.

As star pointed out, there may be a loss of such jobs, but technology marches on and people have to adapt.  After all, there used to be a whaling industry and people made their livelihoods on that.

I read a small article once on the outsourcing in India.  How many young people were eager for the jobs since they paid 3 or more times the going wage (which is still pitifully small compared to the U.S.) but I don't know exactly what their working conditions are.

I think star's idea is pretty valid but there has to be some understanding between our two governments.  The US could help with money or better yet, 'advisors' and building materials/technology, people who are not necessarily 'running the show' as Americans are often arrogantly described as doing, but people who are there to get the job done and report any suspicious activity to the U.S. authorities so that any hint of corruption or bribery is dealt with with the full cooperation of the Mexican govt.  That way, the social programs he suggested would run smoothly and cost-effectively with only a modicum of corruption.