Discrimination

[David In Indy]

Have you ever felt discriminated against?

On these boards we have discussed discrimination the Gay community faces, but as we all know, there are many other forms of discrimination out there.

Discrimination HURTS.   

The Merriam Webster dictionary defines discrimination as: "To distinguish or to show favor or disfavor unjustly".

My mother did her best to shield me from discrimination, and this is BEFORE she realized I was gay. Because, not only am I a gay man, but I also have Native American and African American ancestry. My mother knew discrimination, having been raised as a Native American/African American in the 1930's and 1940's. I suppose she wanted to keep me from experiencing the same hatred and injustice she was exposed to as a child.

The first time I heard a racial slur aimed at my family was when I was about 5 or 6 years old. I was shopping with my mother and her father (my grandfather, who looked quite a bit like Ossie Davis) and I remember hearing someone say "HUMPH! Now that's HIGH YELLOW if I ever saw it!" This woman was staring right at us when she said it, and later I asked my mother what "High Yellow" meant, and she told me it was a hateful word for people like us. People like us?  Some people pronounced it "High Yeller" which was even MORE offensive. Since I didn't look black, my mother always told me to never tell anyone about it. "Even one teeny tiny drop of Black blood is too much" she would tell me. I  didn't understand it then, but I do now. The African American community would never accept me because I didn't look Black. The White community would never accept me because I wasn't White.

I had a harder time hiding my Native American heritage, since I have many of the typical Native American features;  high cheekbones, reddish brown complexion, etc. Back when I was little, it definitely WAS NOT COOL to be Native American. We were perceived as beggars, robbers and liars.

And since I was raised Roman Catholic in a predominantly Protestant state, I faced some discrimination because of my religion.

But there are many other forms of discrimination, aren't there? Discrimination against obese people, Jewish people, handicapped people, foreign people, and other people too.

Have you ever felt discriminated against? Why? What happened and what did you do about it?

[Ellemeno]

David, if your grandfather looked like Ossie Davis, he was probably one handsome, noble-looking man.  I always admired Ossie Davis.  He and his wife Ruby Dee may have been the first celebrities I ever heard of, when I was a child, who put their fame to good use by speaking up about important things.

I may come back tomorrow and write about my few experiences with discrimination.  Not up for looking at them myself, right now.  Great topic, thanks for telling us some of your experiences.    It will be interesting to hear the diverse experiences of our members.  I have thought before that this is part of what draws many of us to BBM, the connection of feeling outside the norm somehow. 

[opinionista]

My grandpa was a black man. He looked a lot like the late Cuban singer Compay Segundo without the cigar. Ever heard of him? Here's a picture:



He suffered discrimination not just for being black but also for growing up poor. A lot of people think that hispanics aren't racist but a lot are and very much so. I know this is a statement not everyone would agree with, but it is the truth. There's a common say in Puerto Rico that goes: Oh you know he's... uhm... black but such a sweet person. That's a very racist statement, IMO.

Anyway, my grandpa told me discrimination taught him to be stronger and to fight for what he wanted. And he did. He became a well to do and a highly respected person and professional.

I never really suffered racial discrimination in Puerto Rico. My grandma was a white woman and my dad is a white man, so I'm not exactly black. My skin is dark but hair is straight so, I look like the typical hispanic woman. Like basically everyone else in Puerto Rico.  But I faced discrimination when I moved to the United States. Don't get me wrong I met a lot of wonderful people. It wasn't that people treated me bad but that they have this terrible image of Puerto Ricans. And though they said, I was an exception, because I happen to come from a well to do family and can afford to dress well and get an education, they would say terrible things about Puerto Ricans in general that hurt just the same. "They are a bunch of drug addicts, theives," etc. As if they aren't white and blond drug addicts and thieves. I mean look at Timothy McVeigh. He was white and blond as they make it but also a terrorist.

Sure, some Puerto Ricans are pure lowlifes, but as it happens in all ethinc groups they constitute a minority. I've always respond that. Some agreed others would simply ignored me. But more importantly I applied my grandpa's motto. Feel sorry for them, because they aren't capable of seeing beyond skin color or ethnicity and they're missing the experience of learning something new and meeting great and wonderful people.

And it is true. My current neighbors are arabs. I have a good relationship with them. They're very nice. Sometimes they invite me to dinner, and I have tried wonderful home made arab food. Their hummus is the best I have ever tried.

[David In Indy]

David, if your grandfather looked like Ossie Davis, he was probably one handsome, noble-looking man.  I always admired Ossie Davis.  He and his wife Ruby Dee may have been the first celebrities I ever heard of, when I was a child, who put their fame to good use by speaking up about important things.

Yes, he looked quite a bit like Ossie Davis. I have some pictures of him. I'll get them scanned and uploaded! 

My grandpa was a black man. He looked a lot like the late Cuban singer Compay Segundo without the cigar. Ever heard of him? Here's a picture:



He suffered discrimination not just for being black but also for growing up poor. A lot of people think that hispanics aren't racist but a lot are and very much so. I know this is a statement not everyone would agree with, but it is the truth. There's a common say in Puerto Rico that goes: Oh you know he's... uhm... black but such a sweet person. That's a very racist statement, IMO.

It's a terrible thing when we are raised to be ashamed of who we are; especially when it comes from our parents. I can understand why my mother did it; she was trying to protect me, but it doesn't make things any less painful. I've learned to be proud of my Native American and Black heritage, and there's a WHOLE LOT to be proud of too.

Each person in this world is like a thread which is a part of a very large and beautiful tapestry. I am borrowing this from some fanfic I read a while ago, and I thought it was very beautiful and very true. Each person in this world has some wisdom to impart and a story to tell, no matter who they are or where they live. Everyone has a story, and the world suffers when we isolate people because of discrimination and intolerance. Fortunately things are getting better (slightly) for Black people and Native people. We still have a very long way to go with the Gay people in our country and in the world.   

[injest]

I have experienced discrimination based on income...(or lack thereof)

When I was growing up we were very poor. but even now I still run into people that think that because they have a Hummer they are better than other people...

My mother worked hard all her life. Raised five kids by herself. A couple of years ago, she was standing under an awning downtown Longview. She was waiting for my niece, who was taking a class at a art museum. The owner of the awning (an attorney) came out with a mop and told her to start cleaning up.....no loitering!

I am still FURIOUS about that. I felt so sorry for her....I guess he thought she was a homeless person..

[Kelda]

Please tell me off if I am being too forward or am out of line but I have a question....

My mother did her best to shield me from discrimination, and this is BEFORE she realized I was gay. Because, not only am I a gay man, but I also have Native American and African American ancestry. My mother knew discrimination, having been raised as a Native American/African American in the 1930's and 1940's. I suppose she wanted to keep me from experiencing the same hatred and injustice she was exposed to as a child.

The first time I heard a racial slur aimed at my family was when I was about 5 or 6 years old. I was shopping with my mother and her father (my grandfather, who looked quite a bit like Ossie Davis) and I remember hearing someone say "HUMPH! Now that's HIGH YELLOW if I ever saw it!" This woman was staring right at us when she said it, and later I asked my mother what "High Yellow" meant, and she told me it was a hateful word for people like us. People like us?  Some people pronounced it "High Yeller" which was even MORE offensive.

David, I've never heard this expression before - if you don't mind can you explain it? Is this in reference to the native american or african american origin?

Also, can I ask another question.. when I met up with an old friend who emigrated to the US when we were 14 a few years ago in Washington DC, I was commenting on liking somebodys tshirt and she asked who? what tshirt?  and I said the coloured guy over their wearing the purple top.

And she shoosshed me, saying You can't say THAT - you say black over here.

Can I ask why the word coloured to describe somebodys skin is deemed offensive in the US?

I've been lucky to have any discrimation minimised given that I grew up in the 80's.. In addition I have a very thick skin and will defend myself or others to the hilt, but definitely I have felt it a little bit not necessarily directly but- a) from being from a poor single parent family, and b) being female.

I'm sure in a previous life I was probably a suffragette.. maybe I associated with Emiline Pankhurst back in the days!

[injest]

High yellow meant that the person had a lot of 'white' mixed ...and it was considered to be not a good thing to be 'mixed'. It was 'better' to either be ALL black...or all white....(or all Native American).

Coloured was used by bigots so much that it began to take on a bad connotation...it is considered demeaning.

[David In Indy]

High yellow meant that the person had a lot of 'white' mixed ...and it was considered to be not a good thing to be 'mixed'. It was 'better' to either be ALL black...or all white....(or all Native American).

Coloured was used by bigots so much that it began to take on a bad connotation...it is considered demeaning.

What Jess said, Kelda.

Most of the African American side of my family still lives in the South, in Louisiana near New Orleans. Most of the French side of my family also still lives down there. And every once in awhile, people will still refer to members of my family as "colored". In addition to what Jess said, it's also offensive because it was commonly used during the pre civil rights era. To call someone "colored" suggests to African Americans that they/we haven't made any progress. It reminds us of the "back of the bus" days. Most people of African descent in America today prefer to be called "African American".

There are many choice words for Native Americans too, and people have used some of these nasty words when referring to me; words such as "Prairie N*gger" and "Injun". Terrible words! Like I said, discrimination hurts. 

[Kelda]

Thanks David and Jess fopr explaining.... there really is some horrid peoplel in the world.

[David In Indy]

Thanks David and Jess fopr explaining.... there really is some horrid peoplel in the world.

You're quite welcome sweetie! Thanks for caring enough to ask! 

That's why I started this thread. Because people don't know, or they are afraid to ask. The only way we will ever understand each other is to talk about it.

Thanks Kelda!!     

[injest]

What Jess said, Kelda.

Most of the African American side of my family still lives in the South, in Louisiana near New Orleans. Most of the French side of my family also still lives down there. And every once in awhile, people will still refer to members of my family as "colored". In addition to what Jess said, it's also offensive because it was commonly used during the pre civil rights era. To call someone "colored" suggests to African Americans that they/we haven't made any progress. It reminds us of the "back of the bus" days. Most people of African descent in America today prefer to be called "African American".

There are many choice words for Native Americans too, and people have used some of these nasty words when referring to me; words such as "Prairie N*gger" and "Injun". Terrible words! Like I said, discrimination hurts. 

humph! when EVERYONE that knows you knows that the PROPER words to describe you is:

Sweet
Kind
gentle
funny
smart


and











KEEEEE ute as a bug!!

 

(there are other words but I don't want to embarrass you or give you a swelled up head)

[Kerry]

It breaks my heart to hear that you've been hurt so badly, David. 

There really are some despicable people out there.

I was discriminated against all through my childhood. I grew-up in an era when men were men (even if you were eight years old!) and women were invisible! I won't get into the gay discrimination thing here, because that wasn't entirely the root cause of the discrimination I was exposed to. No, I was naturally just a delicate, effete kinda kid who hated sport and loved ballet and art - even from a very early age. This just came naturally to me. All the little butch boys at school were very threatened by me and I used to get beaten and attacked on a regular basis. Got so that I was terrified to get on the school bus and had to get public buses to and from school, just to avoid the pint-sized terrorists that made my lil life hell.

I used to hide out in the library and art rooms and in time became very religious.

Fortunately, I had loving, supportive parents. As my dear ol' Mum used to say, "They're more to be pitied than blamed."
 
Yep, good ol' school days weren't exactly very "good" for me. 

[Kelda]

the only people that think school was the good old days is in my experience the chherleaders and the jocks (are whatever the equivalent is each country - in mine probably the smokers, the rugby players and the hockey players)

[David In Indy]

It breaks my heart to hear that you've been hurt so badly, David. 

There really are some despicable people out there.

I was discriminated against all through my childhood. I grew-up in an era when men were men (even if you were eight years old!) and women were invisible! I won't get into the gay discrimination thing here, because that wasn't entirely the root cause of the discrimination I was exposed to. No, I was naturally just a delicate, effete kinda kid who hated sport and loved ballet and art - even from a very early age. This just came naturally to me. All the little butch boys at school were very threatened by me and I used to get beaten and attacked on a regular basis. Got so that I was terrified to get on the school bus and had to get public buses to and from school, just to avoid the pint-sized terrorists that made my lil life hell.

I used to hide out in the library and art rooms and in time became very religious.

Fortunately, I had loving, supportive parents. As my dear ol' Mum used to say, "They're more to be pitied than blamed."
 
Yep, good ol' school days weren't exactly very "good" for me. 

I don't think I'm any different than anyone else Kerry. Not really. In fact, I think every single person in this world has felt discrimination at some point in their lives. A conservative in a room full of liberals; a liberal in a room full of conservatives; a woman in a room full of male chauvinists; someone living or visiting a country and they cannot speak the language; religion. There's all different kinds of situations.

I had a difficult time in school too Kerry. I think those school years were probably the most difficult time in my life. I was an effeminate Catholic boy which was not a good thing to be in 1960's and 1970's Indiana. Catholic schools can be rough anyhow, for some reason. But most of the boys at my school viewed me as a "sissy pretty boy"; because they didn't know those other bad words yet. In middle school and high school the word "fag" reared its ugly head. So, we've all been through discrimination haven't we? Discrimination, intolerance, ostracism and the feeling of confusion and isolation. 

Things are better now in some ways. But we still have a way to go when it comes to race and sexual preference, at least in some places in this country and in the world. 

[KristinDaBomb]

I'm sorry to hear/read about people on here being discriminated. None of you deserve that.

When I was in Kindergarten or first grade, I moved from Chicago (I think, can't remember, we moved around a lot) to Atlanta Georgia. Everyday kids would call me cracker because I was the only white girl in a class of African American's. And when I lived in Hawaii people would call me a Haloe which is supposed to be a term for foreigners, but it was really just a bad word for white people.

[Kerry]

I'm sorry to hear/read about people on here being discriminated. None of you deserve that.

When I was in Kindergarten or first grade, I moved from Chicago (I think, can't remember, we moved around a lot) to Atlanta Georgia. Everyday kids would call me cracker because I was the only white girl in a class of African American's. And when I lived in Hawaii people would call me a Haloe which is supposed to be a term for foreigners, but it was really just a bad word for white people.

Discrimination is ugly - whichever way you look at it.     

[underdown]

(I should be in bed, but this thread is so worthwhile .....)

The face of North America seen in Oz is, no doubt, the pretty one. The ugliness of discrimination doesn't often make it onto the screen (except, perhaps, for films like BBM .... and that took courage).

As an example, I've always thought that Native Americans were respected, for their traditions and values (although one does hear the occasional story of discrimination that leaks out). I'm rather shocked by what you say, David. And, yes, ignorant.

We have heard in the past about the mistreatment of Black Americans, too, but it seems in recent years to have been promoted as just that. The past. We just don't hear about that sort of thing still happening.

The aboriginal population in Australia is not large, percentage wise, and most folk don't really get to know them at all. I have known a few who have been degraded by white society to the point where they are resentful and greedy for Government handouts. I've also had the good fortune to meet some who are determined to ignore the discrimination. Some of those keep their heads down and just survive. Some fight for their people, and that is admired here.

It is also the case, in Australia, that people of mixed aboriginal/other heritage, even with a little aboriginal blood, are deemed aboriginal. There are, officially, no 'mixed blood' people. It means that someone with a claim to even some aboriginal blood can take advantage of Government assistance, but that is a minority, and tolerated because the alternative, of a class of 'mixed' blood people, would be a more difficult problem.

Discrimination in Australia is fairly widespread in other ways. Wealth (or 'success') is probably the most common. I've known people who have migrated from countries where 'love thy neighbour' is quite outside their vocabulary, with a selfish attitude towards others, but, if they are successful, they are respected. Others who are really good people, but not as successful, are considered undesirable company. It's a strange society.

I grew up in a struggling family, and won a place at a prestigious school by examination. But it didn't work very well. The education was tops, but my parents couldn't afford university fees, and I was constantly told there was no point thinking about my dreams. Years later I studied and gained the qualifications to enable me to work in a high paying industry. There have been big ups and downs (divorce settlement was a killer), but I can now mix it with 'society' if I wish. The one thing I can't do is be a snob. There are people out there who think that one should soar with eagles, not walk with turkeys. And people who would give the shirt off their back. Some who follow all the 'rules', and some who are 'different'. But I love them all. They are people.

Maybe that's being a rebel. Ok, I'll admit that. Maybe I'm cheeky and don't conform to the discriminatory view. ...  Well, tough.

Rob

[Kerry]

As an example, I've always thought that Native Americans were respected, for their traditions and values (although one does hear the occasional story of discrimination that leaks out). I'm rather shocked by what you say, David. And, yes, ignorant.

I too was shocked and deeply saddened when David told me of his experiences. Broke my heart. 

We have heard in the past about the mistreatment of Black Americans, too, but it seems in recent years to have been promoted as just that. The past. We just don't hear about that sort of thing still happening.

Not sure that I can agree with you here, Rob. Wasn't there a story in the news just last week about white students hanging nooses in a tree and a whole town going into hyperdrive as a result? Racism is a festering sore in many societies (not all of them white), Australia included. 

The aboriginal population in Australia is not large, percentage wise, and most folk don't really get to know them at all. I have known a few who have been degraded by white society to the point where they are resentful and greedy for Government handouts. I've also had the good fortune to meet some who are determined to ignore the discrimination. Some of those keep their heads down and just survive. Some fight for their people, and that is admired here.

It is also the case, in Australia, that people of mixed aboriginal/other heritage, even with a little aboriginal blood, are deemed aboriginal. There are, officially, no 'mixed blood' people. It means that someone with a claim to even some aboriginal blood can take advantage of Government assistance, but that is a minority, and tolerated because the alternative, of a class of 'mixed' blood people, would be a more difficult problem.

I work very closely with the Aboriginal Health Unit (along with other disciplines) in my work. I am particularly close to the Director of the Aboriginal Health Unit. She is an absolute darling. Diligent, hardworking, conscientious and intelligent, with a gorgeous sense of humour. Her brother (deceased) was Australia's first Aboriginal judge. She is a nurse by profession, now working in administration. She is such a gentle soul. It saddens me so much to think of what has happened to the Aboriginal population of Australia over the years. There have been massacres in this country. And the women and children have been systematically raped, and continue to be. It's a tragedy.   

The one thing I can't do is be a snob. There are people out there who think that one should soar with eagles, not walk with turkeys. And people who would give the shirt off their back. Some who follow all the 'rules', and some who are 'different'. But I love them all. They are people.

That's a very sweet philosophy you've got there, Rob. Reminds me of the quote from "Harold & Maude," where Maude tries to explain to Harold why she loves people so much. She says something like, "Why wouldn't I love them? After all, they're my species!" (not a verbatim quote) Sweet! 

Gee, you must have got to bed really late last night! 

[underdown]

Well, I get to bed late most week nights.
Try to leave for work by 6, and home about 7 to 7.30, and get too wound up to sleep!
(sigh) I sometimes think time discriminates most of all. 
But I'm off to bed shortly.
Sleep tight.
 

[Kerry]

Well, I get to bed late most week nights.
Try to leave for work by 6, and home about 7 to 7.30, and get too wound up to sleep!
(sigh) I sometimes think time discriminates most of all. 
But I'm off to bed shortly.
Sleep tight.
 

Nighty-night, Rob. Sweet dreams. 

[loneleeb3]

words such as "Prairie N*gger" and "Injun". Terrible words! Like I said, discrimination hurts. 

I can't believe that!!
I guess being in the south there aren't many Native Americans in my area.
I have always been proud of my native American Heritage! My Granny always said thats where I got my coloring from was from that bloodline. It's my understanding (I may have posted this before so sorry if I'm repeating) that my grat grandmothers Grandmother was a Blackfoot Indian from Montanna. We've tried to document it but there just are no records that we can get our hands on and not many left who even know the names of the generations past. It's sad really. I have seen pictures of My great Great grandmother and you can see the native American features she has. She was a beautiful dark skinned woman with long black hair put up in a big victorian bun.
She kinda looked out of place wearing that high collared victorian dress.
Anyway, I think even if we were all black or all white, people would still find somthing to discriminate each other for.
I think that is just a sad part of human nature.
I hate hearing your story though David. That just breaks my heart. People can be downright evil sometimes!

[Shakesthecoffecan]

In Virginia we have Indians, remants of large populations who carry on the identity of their ancestors, The Pamunkey and The Mattaponi live on reservations near Richmond and still pay their yearly taxes to the Govenor in the form of game, as per the treaty of Middle Plantation , 29 May 1646.

There are also the Rappahannock, Nandsmond, Chicahominy, Eastern Chicahominy and Upper Mattaponi, they were all memners of Powhatan's Confederation. Additionally there is the Monacans, near Lynchburg. They are all recognized by the Commonwealth of Virginia but not the federal government.

In the early 20th century white folks often would not want it known they had natives in their background. Natives had also bended with Africans and that added to the taint of being anythingless than 100% white. Those with native features would often claim to be descendants of Pocahontas, since she was so famous it sort of made it okay. That is what my family did, and in the process lost all memory of who they were, like Lees, it is not documented.

And there was Plecker, heard of the vital statistics bureau for 60 some years who refused to allow any birth or death certificate to list a person as an Indian, circulating lists of surnames to local registrars of family to be designated as "Colored". the SOB was run down by a truck crossing the street in Richmond in 1957. Today the vital statistic bureau will reissue those certificates corrected to read "Native American". 

[Rayn]

Let's talk international a bit.  Did you hear the President of Iran say today that "In Iran we don't have homosexuals like you do here in the US...."  words to that effect...that 's not an exact quote.   Well, did you also know that in South Korea, "There are no gays."   Yes, that's what many will tell you here and even though the younger people are starting to change, discrimination still runs deep.  One famous TV actor who came out some years ago was fired and never heard from again.  Don't know what happened to him, but you can be sure he 's not working as an actor here anymore. 

I have to be careful too.  I am not out on the job, I can't be. I could lose my job.  Oh, they say they have a free country, a democratic country, but there's discrimination everywhere and not just against gay and lesbian people.  There are many forms of it in society. 

But homosexuals are a big joke.  Men can dress up in women clothes for a laugh on TV, but real gay men or lesbians have a very tough time here.  Please remember this when you think of me and send up a prayer to heaven for us all. 

People in the USA have it so much better, remember that too, and count your blessings. 

[Wishes]

I can't believe they even let that so called president of Iran in the country. I think it's an insult. I had to turn the channel last evening because I could not listen to his rhetoric another second.

I actually think every day how lucky I am to have been born in the U.S. Life is far from perfect but I have a roof over my head, food and clean water to drink. Things many people in this world do not have. I also have a profession where I will always be employed.

Regarding discrimination I want to mention how important it is to never be a bystander. I always speak up when I hear someone saying a racial or gay slur which has happened at work several times. I have heard the "n" word twice. I was appalled and told one co-worker "I don't ever want to hear that word coming out of your mouth again!"

[underdown]

Hello people,
It is interesting to note that, so far, in the 'Pet Peeves' Poll, the highest votes are for things people do that annoy.
There are no votes against people who are fat, thin, tall, short or immigrants.
It's nice to know that Bettermost folk do not discriminate on appearance. 

[Rayn]

 

I can't believe they even let that so called president of Iran in the country. I think it's an insult. I had to turn the channel last evening because I could not listen to his rhetoric another second.

I disagree and here's why: 

I submit that it's a good thing that he's allowed to come to the US.  Maybe he will learn something about us, about freedom, about the goodness of the people.  Peace and better relations cannot never be created without dialogue. Communication with people you don't like is sometimes needed to improve relations for everyone.   And we can learn something about Iran from him, you know.  If it's only "how not to be" , that's something, but there is a lot about Iran and the people there that Americans could benefit from.  The act of inviting him to the US was the best example and display of how a free and open society works.

[Kerry]

I couldn't believe it when he said there were no homosexuals in Iran.

The audience openly laughed in his face for making that ludicrous observation. He deserves to be laughed at for making such a fallaciously vacuous remark.

They execute gays in Iran. Only recently, two young teenage lovers were executed together, in the open marketplace. And for what reason? Because they loved each other, that's why. It breaks my heart.

[loneleeb3]

I couldn't believe it when he said there were no homosexuals in Iran.

The audience openly laughed in his face for making that ludicrous observation. He deserves to be laughed at for making such a fallaciously vacuous remark.

They execute gays in Iran. Only recently, two young teenage lovers were executed together, in the open marketplace. And for what reason? Because they loved each other, that's why. It breaks my heart.

Thats why there are no homosexuals in Iran. He kills them.

[Kerry]

Thats why there are no homosexuals in Iran. He kills them.

If Jack and Ennis lived in Iran, he would have them executed. It makes me so sad. I'm finding it very difficult to be erudite, intellectual and philosophical in the face of this monstrous evil. Forgive me.

[opinionista]

Thats why there are no homosexuals in Iran. He kills them.

And others simply flew the country. There's an arab restaurant near my building ran by a couple of gay Iranians. They became Spanish citizens and are now legally married. Im not sure if they practice islam.

[Wishes]

Rayn, I'll have to disagree. I'm listening to KGO Newstalk in San Francisco right now and they are saying that any negative publicity this guy is getting here in the U.S. is actually uniting Iranians in his favor at this point. Eventhough he is considered rather unstable even in Iran.

The reputation of the U.S. is rather pathetic around the world. It would take quite a lot to change that.

There are two immigrants in my family. My brother actually had a hard time getting his wife here. And this guy floats in. I know he was just here for a "visit" but I don't like it.

Anyway, I don't get much interaction on this board and I don't want any to just be negative so I'll stop with this subject right here.

[Rayn]

Rayn, I'll have to disagree. I'm listening to KGO Newstalk in San Francisco right now and they are saying that any negative publicity this guy is getting here in the U.S. is actually uniting Iranians in his favor at this point. Eventhough he is considered rather unstable even in Iran. The reputation of the U.S. is rather pathetic around the world. It would take quite a lot to change that.  There are two immigrants in my family. My brother actually had a hard time getting his wife here. And this guy floats in. I know he was just here for a "visit" but I don't like it.  Anyway, I don't get much interaction on this board and I don't want any to just be negative so I'll stop with this subject right here.

Perhaps it's best, as you say, to end it here, unless there is someone else who would like to say something about it, but if it ends here we could end it noting what we have and need to continue in the United States of America and that is, FREEDOM of SPEECH.

The man was invited to the US by Americans to speak. 

     It would be against the constitution and everything that is truly American if he were silenced because some people didn't like what he was saying and anyone who doesn't like what he's saying can exercise his or her right, as you did Wishes, to turn the TV or Radio to a different channel, there are however, as evidenced by the many who listened to him at Columbia University, many people who want to talk to him and hear what he has to say.  Dialogue, change happens when there is dialogue, a very American activity, isn't it?  

     What I'm also getting at here, Wishes, is that in your one entry about him, you insult the President of Iran and then say how against discrimination and slurs you are!  What's going on with that picture?   You may not agree with him, you may dislike him, you may even think it's an insult to Americans that he was invited to speak in America, but the President of Iran is deserving of respect just as all human beings are deserving of respect.  He is like me and you and everyone else.  He just wants to be happy in his life and be free to speak the truth as he sees it.  As an American, I believe he is entitled to do that and so when I read your slur against him "the so called president of Iran", I felt the need to respond to that.

     And in parting, the negative publicity he's getting is helping his ratings in Iran, you say?  Again, that proves the point I am making.  Insults and mean spirited slurs against the President of Iran while he is a guest in our country will work against the United States and make its reputation even worse than it is.   When a leader is attacked by strangers in an unpopular country, it usually increases the support of his own people for him out of sympathy.  Surely that is something, Wishes, you can understand.

Honest dialogue doesn't have to be filled with insults and negative energy.  It can be respectful even while it is truthful.     

[Kelda]

I don't think Wishes was insulting him or being discriminatory - just stating an opinion - as you both say, its lucky we have a freedom of speech iin our countries. Each day we should be thankful for the lives we have - I often forget how lucky I am and moan about my day. It pales into insignificance compared to others. 

[Rayn]

I don't think Wishes was insulting him or being discriminatory -

  Kelda....  Let's look at language noting that when a person calls the legitimate postion of a president of any nation into question by calling him "the so called president" of Iran, that is an insult, plain and simple.  She might as well have called him "a fake".  That's not an opinion. 

The President of Iran was elected by his own people.  He isn't the "so called president"; he's the duly elected president of Iran.  That Wishes dislikes the man is clear in her insult.

And why not allow Wishes to answer for her own statement?  Perhaps if there were some reflection on language used there might also be some learning about how to write about someone she dislikes in a more respectful manner. 

Learning respect for people we don't like ... hmmmm... now that is something that could help us all! 

[Rayn]

I couldn't believe it when he said there were no homosexuals in Iran.

The audience openly laughed in his face for making that ludicrous observation. He deserves to be laughed at for making such a fallaciously vacuous remark.

Of course they laughed, because they reacted instead of giving it some thought first.

He didn't say there were NO Homosexuals in Iran, He said there were no homosexuals in Iran LIKE THERE ARE IN AMERICA....That is what I heard the translator say.   And if that's what he said, then he's right.   Iran is a completely different culture , not like American culture at all. 

There are several ways to understand the man if you can look and hear him from an unbiased point of view.  Also, was anything lost in translation?  Think about it.   

And perhaps ask why we are whipping up so much hatred of this guest that we invited to visit with us and speak to us.


DA

[David In Indy]

  Kelda....  Let's look at language noting that when a person calls the legitimate postion of a president of any nation into question by calling him "the so called president" of Iran, that is an insult, plain and simple.  She might as well have called him "a fake".  That's not an opinion. 

The President of Iran was elected by his own people.  He isn't the "so called president"; he's the duly elected president of Iran.  That Wishes dislikes the man is clear in her insult.

And why not allow Wishes to answer for her own statement?  Perhaps if there were some reflection on language used there might also be some learning about how to write about someone she dislikes in a more respectful manner. 

Learning respect for people we don't like ... hmmmm... now that is something that could help us all! 

I don't think it's quite that cut and dry. He is the elected leader of Iran. However, the candidates are hand picked by the mullahs before an election takes place in Iran. The Iranian people then elect their president from this group of pre-screened, mullah approved candidates. This is like saying to someone they can purchase any make, model and color of car they wish, but all the cars on the lot are blue Ford Tauruses. Not exactly a democratic process, is it? The mullahs are the true leaders in Iran. The Iranian President is basically their puppet, saying and doing exactly what they tell him.

Having said that, the Iranian President IS the visible head of state for Iran, and he should be treated with absolute and total respect when he is in the United States. I was shocked, angry and disappointed by the way he was treated at Columbia University. They invited him into their "house" and then treated him like crap while he was there. I've always believed Americans to be a warm and kind hearted people; at least for the most part. We certainly didn't live up to those qualities last Monday at Columbia University. It disappoints me.

[loneleeb3]

Having said that, the Iranian President IS the visible head of state for Iran, and he should be treated with absolute and total respect when he is in the United States. I was shocked, angry and disappointed by the way he was treated at Columbia University. They invited him into their "house" and then treated him like crap while he was there. I've always believed Americans to be a warm and kind hearted people; at least for the most part. We certainly didn't live up to those qualities last Monday at Columbia University. It disappoints me.

he is a despot and a dictator He doesn't deserve any respect. I am glad the Prsident of the univerity challanged him.No one has yet. He can spew his propoganda to Diane Sawyer, say what he wants on all the major news channels and no one challenges him at all!
 My Grandfather was part of the allied forces that liberated the concentration camps. He went into Nordhausen.
After the people were liberated he was in charge of documenting the atrocities for the Nuremburg war tribunals.
My Grandfather still has nightmares today. Anyone who denies the holocost, calls for Isreal and the US to be wiped off the map, murders homosexuals and sponsors terrorists does not deserve any respect. respect is somthing that is earned and in my book he hasn't earned any. If Hitler came to speak would you give him your rspect? What about Pol Pot or  Stalin? He is an evil man not worthy ofmy time or respect!

[ifyoucantfixit]

         I would think you should then not attend his meetings.  That would to me be the highest form of disrespect, and at the same time preserving your own respectful way of behaving.

[loneleeb3]

         I would think you should then not attend his meetings.  That would to me be the highest form of disrespect, and at the same time preserving your own respectful way of behaving.

Amen!
I wouldn't. I can't believe they even let him talk.

[David In Indy]

he is a despot and a dictator He doesn't deserve any respect. I am glad the Prsident of the univerity challanged him.No one has yet. He can spew his propoganda to Diane Sawyer, say what he wants on all the major news channels and no one challenges him at all!
 My Grandfather was part of the allied forces that liberated the concentration camps. He went into Nordhausen.
After the people were liberated he was in charge of documenting the atrocities for the Nuremburg war tribunals.
My Grandfather still has nightmares today. Anyone who denies the holocost, calls for Isreal and the US to be wiped off the map, murders homosexuals and sponsors terrorists does not deserve any respect. respect is somthing that is earned and in my book he hasn't earned any. If Hitler came to speak would you give him your rspect? What about Pol Pot or  Stalin? He is an evil man not worthy ofmy time or respect!

Then why invite him in the first place? What do you think this accomplished? And what do you think he'll do? He'll go back to Iran and inform his people how badly he was treated by the Americans. Remember most Iranians HATE this man, and many are looking for a regime change, much like what is currently happening in Myanmar. Most Iranians are pro West. But I'm scared of what happened at CU last Monday may cause the Iranian people to rally around him rather than against him.

It's important to remember Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a HEAD OF STATE. If this guy was some Iranian version of Rush Limbaugh, I'd feel different about it. But he's the Iranian President. And whether or not the man actually deserves it, he is the president of a nation, and this alone demands our respect.

Lee, I totally agree with you. The man is a dictator, a terrorist, a liar and a madman. He'd love to kill me. If I traveled to Iran, I'd probably be executed, and he'd rejoice about it. He's a horrible person. But I just feel that since he IS a head of state, we should treat him with the same respect we would show any other visiting dignitary such as Gordon Brown, Queen Elizabeth, Queen Beatrix, Nicolas Sarközy, etc...

         I would think you should then not attend his meetings.  That would to me be the highest form of disrespect, and at the same time preserving your own respectful way of behaving.

I agree Janice. That would be the ULTIMATE slap in the face! If Columbia University wanted to express their hatred for this man, an empty auditorium would certainly do it!

[Kelda]

  Kelda....  Let's look at language noting that when a person calls the legitimate postion of a president of any nation into question by calling him "the so called president" of Iran, that is an insult, plain and simple.  She might as well have called him "a fake".  That's not an opinion. 

The President of Iran was elected by his own people.  He isn't the "so called president"; he's the duly elected president of Iran.  That

Just stating my point of view Rayn - which is that the statement was not an insult just an opinion that she dislikes the person - our point of views are obviously different on that! Generally I know I and many other write as we would talk on this board. And if I was to speak this statement I would not see that not as an insult just an opinion.

 


EDITED TO CLARIFY:

What I'm trying to say here is that this is a board where colloquialisms and easy use language is generally used. I have a good grasp of the English language, I would say, but I don't feel the need in bettermost to go to huge lengths to check that my use is grammatically correct or proper written English is observed (checking dictionaries etc) as I am writing and speaking to my friends in a chatty manner generally. I have to write in a formal matter enough at work!! 

[Rayn]

...., the Iranian President IS the visible head of state for Iran, and he should be treated with absolute and total respect when he is in the United States. I was shocked, angry and disappointed by the way he was treated at Columbia University. They invited him into their "house" and then treated him like crap while he was there. I've always believed Americans to be a warm and kind hearted people; at least for the most part. We certainly didn't live up to those qualities last Monday at Columbia University. It disappoints me.

Exactly, thanks David.... and there have to be others, but you are the first to actually get the real point I am making.  Respect people, or as someone so long ago said in more radical terms...

LOVE YOUR ENEMIES! 

And if you can't love them, at least
Treat them with respect... .

[Rayn]

Just stating my point of view Rayn - which is that the statement was not an insult just an opinion that she dislikes the person - our point of views are obviously different on that! Generally I know I and many other write as we would talk on this board. And if I was to speak this statement I would not see that not as an insult just an opinion.

I have never given a point of view.  I have only pointed out that I don't like insults on the board, no matter if they are directed toward people I know or toward a distant head of state that no one knows personally.  This is something, as a moderator, you might understand.  But to sum up and be done with it, if Wishes were to speak the statement she wrote, we would hear tone of voice and it would not be polite, of that I am sure. 

I'm sorry, dear Kelda, but you have a misunderstanding of English which, if you care to clear up, any ordinary dictionary will give you the meaning of so-called the way Wishes used it and it's neither nice nor an opinion. 

From the Cambridge Dictionary:

so-called    adjective [before noun]
1. used to show that you think a word that is used to describe someone or something is not suitable or not correct: It was one of his so-called friends who supplied him with the drugs that killed him.


It's ok though, I'm quite used to this sort of thing.  My devotion to words and language are due to being an English teacher, and I can tell you,  even people in university don't get it or don't care to get it.   It's often hard to tell which.   But I do my best and wish you, yours, Kelda.  Farewell.

[Rayn]

he is a despot and a dictator He doesn't deserve any respect. I am glad the President of the univerity challanged him.No one has yet. He can spew his propoganda to Diane Sawyer, say what he wants on all the major news channels and no one challenges him at all!   My Grandfather was part of the allied forces that liberated the concentration camps. He went into Nordhausen.  After the people were liberated he was in charge of documenting the atrocities for the Nuremburg war tribunals. My Grandfather still has nightmares today. Anyone who denies the holocost, calls for Isreal and the US to be wiped off the map, murders homosexuals and sponsors terrorists does not deserve any respect. respect is somthing that is earned and in my book he hasn't earned any. If Hitler came to speak would you give him your rspect? What about Pol Pot or  Stalin? He is an evil man not worthy ofmy time or respect!

Once again.... the question comes up in my mind.... why all the hatred? 

My Dad fought the Japanese, but I don't hate them, nor does he.  My grandfather left Russia while Stalin was in power, but he didn't hate him.   

Hitler was a great man, as in "a man of great consequence".    I don't hate him.  In fact, I'm positive I would have completely disagreed with him had I lived in his time, but I would have listened to him speak.  He was a spell binding orator--- I might have asked him the same question, "Why all the hatred?"   But see! Even our gay brother, Jeffery Dahmer, terrifying murderer that he was, had a mother & father who loved him!

There is good and evil in each of us, isn't there?  There is health of body and mind and sickness in every human being...."There are two dogs fighting in every man.  One is mean, vicious, the other, gentle and kind.  Which one will win... The one you feed the most."     

And who is the ultimate judge of men and women?  Is there One, really?  I don't know. 

I do know that when I am filled with hatred and disrespect for other human beings, I hurt no one but myself.  So, why do it at all? Why push the envelop of hate when we can push the envelop of love?    

Push the envelop of love and see what happens.

Think about it, take it to your heart and see what it does there.

[Rayn]

This is a difficult topic, discrimination, and I feel I've given enough time and energy to it; so farewell fellow brokies on this one.  Bye.

Peace,
Rayn