Why not read the original short story by Annie Proulx?

[TJ]

While I might have liked the movie better if it had been from an original screenplay by Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana, I actually like the Annie Proulx's original short story better.

Larry McMurtry admitted in a Time magazine interview that he created extra women on purpose for the story because he likes women.

The screenplay writers also created other characters which were not in the book, too.

[Br. Patrick]

The Motel scene in the short story is just fantastic.  I have the book "Brokeback Mountain - Story to Screenplay" with the original short story (which I had to use a dictionary to get through (well worth the effort)) AND it also includes the Screenplay along with three additional short essays from Annie Proulx, Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana.  (Great book!)

In Annie's essay she writes how she wrote a letter pleading for the Motel scene.  Some aspects of it turn up at the last meeting in the film, but there are really great other things too.  I especially like Jack wanting more time THEN with Ennis saying, "Come on Ennis, you just shot my airplane out of the sky - give me somethin a go on.  This ain't no little thing that's happenin here."

In the movie they DO get more time but it would have been great if they used Annie's dialog for Jack.   In the film Jack is SO happy but Ennis looks SO CONFLICTED!  This is true of course but as it been said in another thread, Annie's Ennis says, "Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out of my sights.  Too late then by a long, long while."

It's things like this that should make Annie Proulx's short story MANDATORY reading for everybody who loves the film!

[juneaux]

After seeing the film for the first time I purchased the short story and read it about 4 times before giving it to a friend.  Got another copy and read it a couple of times and gave *it* to another friend.  I now have a copy of "Wyoming Stories" in my bedside table.  (It is more difficult to give away when the book is NOT on my person.) 

[Lynne]

I loved the short story, but I must admit that the movie made the story come alive for me.  I've re-read the story several times interspersed with movie viewings and I appreciate it more each time.  I think the prologue about the dream is fantastic, considering how it's worked its way into many of our own dreams.  I'm slowly working my way through the other Wyoming short stories in that volume.

[iristarr]

Hi Lynne and Juneau.  In response to your posts about reading the story -- an evening or two ago I was re-reading it, and I noticed for the first time how (IMO) Ennis got a little shortchanged in the character-building department.  He's sometimes made me a tad impatient with his near-total emotional blockage and some viewers have voiced the opinion that they doubted the depth of his love for Jack.  

But here's what I think they left out: unless my ears failed me, Ennis never says "li'l darlin' during the kiss scene, as he does in the book.  In the motel scene he says, "I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you."  And in the next paragraph: "That summer, when we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois.  Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights.  Too late then by a long, long while."

Not that I personally ever doubted Ennis' love, but I do believe these sentiments he expresses in the book round out and deepen my feelings about it and I think they might have a similar effect on other viwers, especially those not so addicted to the story that they stay up late at night discovering such little details six weeks after first seeing it.  Anyone else notice this stuff?  Iris

[BBMGrandma]

After seeing the film for the first time I purchased the short story and read it about 4 times before giving it to a friend.  Got another copy and read it a couple of times and gave *it* to another friend.  I now have a copy of "Wyoming Stories" in my bedside table.  (It is more difficult to give away when the book is NOT on my person.) 

HAHAH "J"...I gave away MY one copy to my therapist on Monday.  Had to go out and buy another copy too.  I'm going to have to do the same thing.  Purchase a copy of Wyoming Stories and NOT take it out of the house!!   

Nancy 

[juneaux]

Iris, you are correct.  The emotive things said by Ennis in the book were not carried through to the movie.  My guess is that leaving out those statements make the character more distant and closed thereby making his transformation at the end (in Jack's closet with the shirts and with Jr.) more extreme.  (By the way, the expression on her face when he agrees to attend her wedding makes my heart soar.  Not just for the characters either.  I see it as a testament to the ability of humans to learn from our mistakes and to make a conscious effort NOT to repeat them.)

Nancy, I suggest buying the collection to leave at home and the single short story to keep with you just in case run into someone who hasn't read it. 

[BBMGrandma]

By the way, the expression on her face when he agrees to attend her wedding makes my heart soar.  Not just for the characters either.  I see it as a testament to the ability of humans to learn from our mistakes and to make a conscious effort NOT to repeat them.)

Oh yes "J"  ....those are MY hopes too!!   That we "own" our mistakes and face them.  And when that's done...move along.  The past is over...done...kaput.  There is SO much more to gain by looking to the future!! 

 And what a smile...on 'Juniors' face....huh?  PURE LOVE!!   Ennis DID love his girls....that's for sure and it's quite clear they adored their dad! 

BTW....I truly believe that THIS is the place to 'own' those mistakes.  And more importantly....the springboard to the future. 

Much love to all....Nancy

[Aussie Chris]

But here's what I think they left out: unless my ears failed me, Ennis never says "li'l darlin' during the kiss scene, as he does in the book.  In the motel scene he says, "I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you."  And in the next paragraph: "That summer, when we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois.  Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights.  Too late then by a long, long while."

You know what Iris?  I love that we have another source to provide a better understanding of characters.  In particular, I love that he called Jack li'l darlin' and was really into him, but really, these little bits and pieces had to be left out from the film.  Could you imagine how confusing it would have been if "that" side of Ennis was retained in the film, but we are still asked to believe that Ennis couldn't commit to Jack beyond the sporadic trysts up on Brokeback Mountain?  I mean it would all still work, but how realistic would it have been if Ennis was up front with his feelings?  I just don't think it would work.

[TJ]

Oh, I think that more of the story could have been included in the movie. In one version of the screenplay which I found online, there were more things in that version of McMurtry's and Ossana's screenplay than what was in the final script of the movie.

I also say that since they show Ennis Del Mar's flashback of when they got blood on the shirts when discovers them in Jack Twist's boyhood closet as a scene early in the movie, they could have had Jack telling about his father urinating on him when he was a small boy when the guys were together at an earlier time. Ennis remembers that as a flashback when he is at Lightning Flat.

Oh, they would not have to show his father's penis in the movie; they could have just shown that he was undoing his pants and then cut to a little boy getting wet.

I just think that all of the action which is merely narrative when it takes place outside of Wyoming could have been done as a "voice-over" narrative, too.

I still don't understand why the other writers and the movie script had to have Ennis arrive in Signal in a semi truck, having hitched a ride with a trucker. In the screenplay, Ennis did not even know when he got to Signal; but, in the book, while Ennis is talking to Jack up on Brokeback Mountain, he does mention that his older brother lives in Signal.

Oh, I wouldn't have been surprised if Ennis had not called Jack, "little darlin" when they were up on Brokeback and being intimate.

Speaking of "intimate," unlike the movie, after Ennis gets into Jack's bedroll that first night in the tent, there was deepened intimacy before Jack took Ennis' LEFT hand and put it on his cock.

That was make to look rather awkward in the movie, with Jack lying on his left side with Ennis flat on his back behind Jack. Jack used his RIGHT hand to reach ACROSS Ennis to get Ennis' RIGHT hand and pull it across himself.

If Jack had actually done it like in the movie and knowing the character of Ennis, Ennis would not have had sex with Jack; he would have slugged him, giving Jack a cowboy "Attitude Adjustment." 

[Lynne]

After seeing the film for the first time I purchased the short story and read it about 4 times before giving it to a friend.  Got another copy and read it a couple of times and gave *it* to another friend.  I now have a copy of "Wyoming Stories" in my bedside table.  (It is more difficult to give away when the book is NOT on my person.) 

HAHAH "J"...I gave away MY one copy to my therapist on Monday.  Had to go out and buy another copy too.  I'm going to have to do the same thing.  Purchase a copy of Wyoming Stories and NOT take it out of the house!!   

Nancy 

'It's funny how those cowboy stories never stay with you'....;-)  That's supposed to be a play on Lureen's 'It's funny how husbands never want to dance with their wives' line.... My brother has my personal copy of the short story, which he then loaned to his neighbor.  My officemate has my Wyoming Stories with the admonition it's due back at the library in 2 weeks :-)  Evangelical, indeed.

[Aussie Chris]

Oh, I think that more of the story could have been included in the movie. In one version of the screenplay which I found online, there were more things in that version of McMurtry's and Ossana's screenplay than what was in the final script of the movie...

Hmmm, ok...  All of this may be true.  But I think the main point I was trying to make was that, as with all scripts, revisions are made as the pieces come together and the writer/producer/director sees what's working and what isn't.  So some things are changed or left out entirely and others are inserted based on the creative skill of the people involved.  When I read the short story I also revelled in the more explicit nature of the Jack/Ennis relationship, but I am happy that ALL of this was left out because this was a film predominantly about love and regret, and less about the sex that occurs.  Clearly you find the first tent scene unrealistic and the book gives you a way of explaining this sequence better.  You have a perfectly valid point, and maybe this could have been done better.  But does this admonition ruin the film for you, or does it just give you a reason to enjoy the book as well?  I like the idea of the latter.

[iristarr]

Chris, I can see your point in that perhaps some of the details I liked needed to be left out of the movie, in the interest of reinforcing Ennis' TOTALLY blocked character.  But I'm not sure. . . I think some of those little indications of his feelings for Jack might have just given him a bit more dimension and complexity, and I wouldn't have gotten so impatient with him when he just couldn't spit it out to the man he loved.  But we'll never know, will we, and none of this nit-picking changes one whit the beauty and strength of this film.

[Aussie Chris]

Chris, I can see your point in that perhaps some of the details I liked needed to be left out of the movie, in the interest of reinforcing Ennis' TOTALLY blocked character.  But I'm not sure. . . I think some of those little indications of his feelings for Jack might have just given him a bit more dimension and complexity, and I wouldn't have gotten so impatient with him when he just couldn't spit it out to the man he loved.  But we'll never know, will we, and none of this nit-picking changes one whit the beauty and strength of this film.

Totally!  So the fact that Ennis was represented in this way, and drove you to the point of frustration (just like Jack), that you think he's shallow and without emotional depth, isn't your problem with the missing declarations simply a case that the film is perhaps a little too successful?  I remember seeing the film "The Cook, The Thief, His Wife and Her Lover" by Peter Greenaway and being repulsed by the depictions of rancid food being turned into exotic dishes (amongst other horrors).  I was so incensed by these that I went into an impassioned tirade that my friends had to patiently endure for at least 15 minutes.  And then it dawned on me... that my emotional response (revulsion) was exactly what the film was trying to do, and it had succeeded on a scale that I was not giving it credit for.

With Ennis, absolutely everything about him is suppressed.  He cannot love Jack because he cannot be loved by Jack, at least with any words to the effect.  We are forced to view Ennis' emotions through a key-hole of small actions and reactions.  It is all he is and it is his undoing.  Even his final redemption is so understated that you could easily miss it.  Although he manages to go and see Jack's parents and gets the shirts, are these actions in themselves his redemption?  I don't think so, not yet.  I don't think this happens until he asks Alma Jr if Kurt loves her, and when she says he does he has to look away as if about to cry.  This [love] is what he couldn't give to Alma, and also what he could never accept from Jack.  But then, at long last, he says "Jack, I swear..." as he finally admits to himself the truth and the mistakes he’d made - The End.  Just my interpretation of course.

So was the depiction of Ennis excessively constrained?  Absolutely, guilty as charged!  But is this a bad thing or a failing when compared to the book/screenplay?  Maybe.  But the fact that I'm "angry" with Ennis is also the reason why I'm so affected and motivated to "learn from his mistakes".  I wanted it to turn out differently too, but I just don't know if I would feel the same way if the film-Ennis was more like the book.  Even Annie Proolx said in an audio interview that the film-Ennis (through Heath's performance) was more clearly "Ennis" than even she had imagined.

[iristarr]

I gotcha Chris!  My God, you're right on every count -- it is just such little subtleties in this film that work their way into you until you react in whatever way you do --sincerely, from your heart.  No masquerading here, it all gets dug up and thrown on the table for us to weep over, dig through, and ultimately (one would hope) reconstruct into a positive, growing interior life. Double WOW!!!  I'll have seen the film 10 times tomorrow and the depth of it only continues to grow on me. Much gratitude for your comments, Iris.

[backtobrokeback]

I'm going to get the DVD for a lot of people in my life, and I think I'll get them the book too.  They belong together.  The book is Ennis - tight, terse, full of hidden depths and tremendous sorrow.  The movie is Jack - with arms open, a big grin, and a "Tell you what, here's what happened on Brokeback". 

[iristarr]

That's a good idea.  I've got a few close people who haven't seen the picture at all, for whatever reason, and a bunch more who have seen it maybe once, and I'm sure would like to have the DVD. Not sure any of them would read the book though, but if the movie hooks them, perhaps they'll be curious enough to do their own research.  Iris

[Br. Patrick]

I have a question to all of you with ALL of Annie Proulx's Wyoming Stories.   Since I loved "Brokeback Mountain" I would consider ordering it if others recommend it.  Is it just me or am I the only one who needed a dictionary to get through Annie's prose?  I always thought that my vocabulary was above average but Annie uses such expressive words and sentences.  I quess that I just don't want to feel 'stupid' because I used a dictionary to get the most out of this story that has literally changed my life.

peace

[Suffused]

Is it just me or am I the only one who needed a dictionary to get through Annie's prose?

I, on my thirtieth reading of BBM, decided to sit in front of my terminal and google all the words and phrases i was unfamiliar with.  It was great !!  Resistol, Blue Heeler, species of plants, animals etc.  It made the story much more compelling.

[iristarr]

I'd say, do whatever you need to do to wring the meaning from the story, without apology.  Proulx uses plenty of unfamiliar, local, colloquial terms in her work, most of which I can usually guess at by the context, and some I'm just curious about.  (Had to do a bit of research on "stem the rose," for instance.)  I do find that every time I dig around with my dictionary or whatever, the new understandings I get keep enriching my experience of this whole BBM thing.  It has been a remarkable unfolding.  Iris

[juneaux]

To be honest, Br. Pat, I haven't finished many of the *other* stories in the collection~ I tend to keep rereading the one that stole my heart.  I will let you know when I do complete them and my thoughts about the entire book.

I live in the South so didn't need to look up some of the terms about which Wayne was unsure.  However, I, too was clueless in regards to stemming roses.   

It is wonderful that the people on this board are so willing to share their thoughts about this story.  When I try to discuss it with my friends they call me obsessed.  (To be fair, this topic has dominated my thoughts and conversations for the past four months...)

[Phillip Dampier]

Hmmm, ok...  All of this may be true.  But I think the main point I was trying to make was that, as with all scripts, revisions are made as the pieces come together and the writer/producer/director sees what's working and what isn't.  So some things are changed or left out entirely and others are inserted based on the creative skill of the people involved.  When I read the short story I also revelled in the more explicit nature of the Jack/Ennis relationship, but I am happy that ALL of this was left out because this was a film predominantly about love and regret, and less about the sex that occurs.  Clearly you find the first tent scene unrealistic and the book gives you a way of explaining this sequence better.  You have a perfectly valid point, and maybe this could have been done better.  But does this admonition ruin the film for you, or does it just give you a reason to enjoy the book as well?  I like the idea of the latter.

The more graphic stuff being left out also cuts down the negative campaigning against the film, which turned out to be more muted than one would have thought.  There were no boycotts, just the usual nonsense that it was Hollywood trying to change America into a liberal bastion.  With more graphic sex scenes, I'm sure we would have heard more whining.  I didn't think the actual "sex" itself was as important as the conveyed emotions.  This was not at all a "turn on" film for me.  It was an emotional movie all the way through.

[Fla_Tim]

Over the weekend I read the short story for the first time, and it did me some good in dealing with some of the feelings I was left with after leaving the theater.

As some of you have said, Ennis's feelings for Jack come shining through in the short story, where in the film since he internalized so much, it is not as evident.

Probably the best thing it did was clear out some of the horror I felt watching the images of Jack's death. I came away from the film thinking Jack had been murdered, and possibly by his father-in-law. Annie Proulx's ending is somewhat cryptic, but the tire iron seems to be Ennis's nightmare of what he thought happened stirred up by what his father made him see as a child (the body of the murdered gay man). The author actualy starts the section talking about Jack's death something like "He heard about the accident...", and she is clear in the story when she talks about the father in law having predeceased Jack.

[donnaread]

Hi Lynne and Juneau.  In response to your posts about reading the story -- an evening or two ago I was re-reading it, and I noticed for the first time how (IMO) Ennis got a little shortchanged in the character-building department.  He's sometimes made me a tad impatient with his near-total emotional blockage and some viewers have voiced the opinion that they doubted the depth of his love for Jack.  

But here's what I think they left out: unless my ears failed me, Ennis never says "li'l darlin' during the kiss scene, as he does in the book.  In the motel scene he says, "I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you."  And in the next paragraph: "That summer, when we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois.  Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights.  Too late then by a long, long while."

Not that I personally ever doubted Ennis' love, but I do believe these sentiments he expresses in the book round out and deepen my feelings about it and I think they might have a similar effect on other viwers, especially those not so addicted to the story that they stay up late at night discovering such little details six weeks after first seeing it.  Anyone else notice this stuff?  Iris
[/quote  Yes, Yes, Lynne, there are a lot of "little things" in the story that didn't make it into the movie.  Some I'm glad they didn't, like Jacks: "Guns going off".  I think its better he said nothing...that ground pounding was extremely sensual, and to me extremely "real"  Jack sounds like he's enjoying it, but its also painful.  He DOES sound like he's giving grunts of pain as well as pleasure.  Ennis says a lot more in the story than the book...Also, Jack doesn't tell Ennis (in the movie) about Aguirre seeing them, and you know Jack knows before Aguirre tells him that next summer.  When Aguirre comes to tell Jack his uncle Harold is in the hospital, he looks up through his binoculars to see Ennis on the mountain, and when he does, Jack gets a look of realization on his face that tells you that he knows Aguirre had been watching him and Ennis with those same binoculars.  Also, in the movie Ennis didn't tell Jack he broke down in the alley after they parted.  There are a bunch of "little things" like that.  I am SO glad they did the flashback of Ennis holding Jack by the fire...its one of the three times Ennis shows affection for Jack. The other two times are the 2nd tent scene, and when they reunite after four years.  But the reunion is more about passion and longing than tenderness.  Jack is much more affectionate and tender with Ennis than the other way around.  I LOVE the motel scene when Jack is holding Ennis against his chest, its just so sweet. 

[Fla_Tim]

And I just loved the spare taut prose of Annie Proulx. I had been reading a trashy gossipy novel, Saturday I read Brokeback Mountain and when I finished and started up reading the novel I felt like I was breaking out from the novel (Male Model), everything was described to the nth degree which gave me fits. I only got through it because these were the only two things I brought on an out of town trip.

Any reccomendations from Annie Proulx's other works?

[Jack_ME]

It's an interesting topic to discuss and compare Annie Proulx's short story, and Ang Lee's film. And it's worthwhile from the point of view of understanding how films are inspired and how they are developed and finally presented. I enjoy that sort of discussion myself.

However, I would like to make another point here,

The film is the film and the short story is the short story!

Unlike, for example, a factual documentary on the life of JFK wihich may have left a viewer with unanswered questions, unclear points, or omissions, and for clarification and answers to those questiions, the viewer could turn to an authorized published factual biography of JFK, one can not view the film, BBM and then turn to Annie Proulx's short story to answer questions about the film.

There are four main characters if one wants to discuss both media versions. There is Film Jack and there is Story Jack, and there is Film Ennis and there is Story Ennis. These are 4 independent artistic and fictional characters and artistic creations.

It is obvious that Ang Lee, Diana Ossana, and Larry McMurtry have based their film work on the short story but they were not creating a documentary of the story! In essence what they have done, and what every film-maker does who isn't creating a documentary, is INTERPRET that work of art from the one media into another work of art in a different media.

Consequently, while it is an interesting discussion to compare the two works of art, it isn't fair to use the one as an explanation of the other, or worse to fault the one for being different from the other.

Many here in this thread have commented on and noted the differences in the two media's versions  of Ennis's character, and in actuality the two Ennis's are NOT the same character, so it should be no surprise that they differ.

This is one of my personal soap-boxes, because it always amazes me when some people WON'T view and asess the film on its own merits. And if I stated the situation in reverese, the unfairness of it becomes quite obvious, namely to criticize Annie Proulx's short story for failing to present the more developed Lureen or Alma from the movie!  (creation sequence disregarded of course for this example)

I think both works are wonderful and amazing and true works of art in their respective media. And they each stand on their own.

Myself, I am quite happy to have both couples in my life!

As Phillip currently has in his signature line, Annie Proulx has said that the story is not finished until the reader reads it and brings his/her own interpretations to those words she has chosen in crafting her story. So surely Ang Lee has as much right as any other reader to bring his own interpretations to life. Annie Proulx has said that she was overwhelmed with how accurately he had got the essence of her characters.  So while she herself was obviously aware of these differences in the film from her story, she felt more than satisfied with Ang Lee's film presentation.


Jack in Maine

[Jack_ME]

  (By the way, the expression on her face when he agrees to attend her wedding makes my heart soar.  Not just for the characters either.  I see it as a testament to the ability of humans to learn from our mistakes and to make a conscious effort NOT to repeat them.)

Juneaux, this scene is so great!

I love the change in Junior's face from sadness to joy, and how that actress acomplished that so wonderfully with barely even moving her head, just changing her facial expression. It's great!

It had real resonance for me, because I saw that same wonderful change of expression on my Dad's face when I finally had my first REAL talk with him face to face. We had had a difficult relationship, and though I do have some small isolated pleasant moments from my childhood with him, in general we never spoke and I tried to avoid him. I left home at age 13 for school, and finally for good at age 17, and over the next decade analyzed and examined my relationship with Dad and gradually understood why and how it was that way, and finally realized I needed to speak to him, and so I did. After many aborted attempts. When I was 27 years old I sat across the table from him and I told him for the first time in my life that I loved him and that I was proud to be his son. I will never forget the change in his expression. (he had been a bit nervous as I had announced I was coming and needed to speak to him privately) But when I said that I loved him.....his face grew such an enormous wide smile from ear to ear. His faced changed just like Junior's did when Ennis told her he would go to her wedding. It's my greatest memory of Dad.

I also "reminded" my Dad at that talk that I was homosexual and I asked him if he knew what that meant. For me it was just important to say that to him, especially in the context of telling him I loved him and was proud to be his son. He and I only had about 10 years left, and only about 7 of those to communicate, as he got ill with Parkinson's and deteriorated badly over the last 3 years. But I have my memory, and I know I gave him something wonderful too. If I had to pick one accomplishment from my life that I was proudest of, it would be that moment and giving to my Dad the love he deserved, and opening up to him, so I could receive from him the love I deserved.

(this is way off topic! Sorry! Phillip feel free to move it to a Personal Blog space if you feel it should be)

Jack in Maine

[Jack_ME]

I have a question to all of you with ALL of Annie Proulx's Wyoming Stories.   Since I loved "Brokeback Mountain" I would consider ordering it if others recommend it.  Is it just me or am I the only one who needed a dictionary to get through Annie's prose?  I always thought that my vocabulary was above average but Annie uses such expressive words and sentences.  I quess that I just don't want to feel 'stupid' because I used a dictionary to get the most out of this story that has literally changed my life.

peace

Br.Patrick,

Annie Proulx does have a distinctive voice and if you enjoy that, over and above the content of BBM, you will enjoy her other stories too. But in case you are not aware, this is the ONLY story of hers dealing with this subject of homosexual love, as far as I know.

A little bio: Annie Proulx is about 73 years old now, and she has been married several times, and has several children by her different husbands. She is of French Canadian ancestry and she grew up in New England. She now lives in Wyoming. The only reason I'm stating these facts here, is that I know some people have assumed, and believed, that she herself was "gay". But as far as I know, that is not now nor has ever been true. (you can read her bio yourself at annieproulx.com)

So the bottom line is, if you like her writing, you will enjoy the rest of her stories. But if you are looking for more from her on the subject of Ennis and Jack's love or homosexual love in general, you won't find that in them.

Jack in Maine

[BBMGrandma]

. But I have my memory, and I know I gave him something wonderful too. If I had to pick one accomplishment from my life that I was proudest of, it would be that moment and giving to my Dad the love he deserved, and opening up to him, so I could receive from him the love I deserved.

OH Jack....how TRULY fortunate you were to have had that openess and love shared between you and your Dad.  There are SO many who have never had that experience.  It was YOUR initiation of the talk...that did it!!  If you hadn't....perhaps you and he would NEVER have known the love between the two of you.  Bravo to you Jack!!!  What a lovely memory...indeed!!  One that I'm sure you'll treasure...always.  A REAL 'Alma Jr./Ennis moment for sure!! 

Warm HUGS.....Nancy 

[BBMGrandma]

Evening Everyone....

I've just come from my 10th viewing of Brokeback Mountain...and I'm STILL rather taken aback at the emotional upheaval it stirs in my gut. 

As I sat down in the theater...a couple came in and sat directly behind me.  We were all early and they started chatting about what they were having for dinner.  Quite an argument ensued about whether they were going to have brocolli or green beans.  No problem...the movie hadn't started yet. 
When it started....about 8 minutes into the film...they started up again!!  This time the woman gave a huge sigh...and said...quite loudly..."I don't see what ANYONE sees in this movie...."
As I told someone else earlier....I wanted to turn around and tell her..."IF you kept your mouth shut...maybe YOU WOULD understand"  But I held back and moved my seat. 

I was holding it together quite well...or so I thought!!  Two scenes though...again...blew me away.  When Ennis cried out to Jack..."It's your fault I'm like this....nowhere..nobody..." and collapses into Jack's arms...I could actually feel my heart...almost bursting out of my chest.  And then, of course, the conversation at the end between Alma Jr. and Ennis...in his trailer.  Her smile lights up my heart.  Such a gamut of emotion in this movie.  PURE LOVE....and total despair. 

I'm learning SOO much about myself....and what I NEED in this life.  I'm learning that NO ONE is going to knock on my door...and bring happiness TO me. .  I have to be brave...and go OUT into the world....and find it for myself.  No one else can find my happiness for me....I need to GET OUT there...and search it out on my own.  It's sooo frightening though if you've been hurt...again and again.  The only other alternative is to live in a cave...alone!!  Gotta be BRAVE!! 

The film is the film and the short story is the short story!

I think both works are wonderful and amazing and true works of art in their respective media. And they each stand on their own.

Myself, I am quite happy to have both couples in my life!


[/color]

I SOO agree with you Jack.  I have all four of them tucked neatly inside my heart!!!  I can't compare them....they each have their very own niche....and in MY book...they're happy as clams together....always!!! 

Much Love....Nancy 

[BBMGrandma]

and I see I've posted this in the wrong thread!!  SORRY...sometimes I just 'lose' myself in here....with the wonder of everyone and everything here in our safe place.

Oooopsie...sorry....Nancy

I bought Wyoming Stories just yesterday and I haven't read it yet.  Soo...I can't comment on it yet!!  I've read BrokeBack Mountain though....a trillion times it seems.  And each time...I love it a little bit more.   

[iristarr]

Jack, so much appreciated your posts on BBM - the film, vs. the story.  Many good points raised. I have surely enjoyed the process in which this film engaged me -- the symbols and metaphors, the analyses, the comparisons, the studies of the tiniest, most subtle gestures, glances, words.  All of this has been entirely new to me, this intense interest in one particular film, to which I return again and again. Never ever happened before in my life. This afternoon I saw it for the eleventh time, not to check out any particular detail or effect, but just to bask in it, to revel its beauty and sadness. I likened the experience to having a really excellent meal, or a wonderful deep massage, or totally gratifying sex, something one is called back to revisit time after time after time.  What a gift it is!  And I thank you for contributing to my deepening understanding. Iris  

[donnaread]

Jack, so much appreciated your posts on BBM - the film, vs. the story.  Many good points raised. I have surely enjoyed the process in which this film engaged me -- the symbols and metaphors, the analyses, the comparisons, the studies of the tiniest, most subtle gestures, glances, words.  All of this has been entirely new to me, this intense interest in one particular film, to which I return again and again. Never ever happened before in my life. This afternoon I saw it for the eleventh time, not to check out any particular detail or effect, but just to bask in it, to revel its beauty and sadness. I likened the experience to having a really excellent meal, or a wonderful deep massage, or totally gratifying sex, something one is called back to revisit time after time after time.  What a gift it is!  And I thank you for contributing to my deepening understanding. Iris  

Iris, I know what you mean about never feeling like this about a movie before.  It is the same for me.  Never have I wanted to sit and just absorb every sound, word, gesture, facial expression....EVERYTHING about his beautiful movie.  It is in my heart and has affected my whole being.  I almost never buy movies.  One I can't afford many, and two I live in a small place, and don't have room for a lot of "stuff", lol, and most of mu stuff is furniture and books!  The only two movies I ever bought are AS GOOD AS IT GETS (some homosexual characters, starring Jack Nicholson &  Helen Hunt), and FINDING FORRESTER (friendship between a black teenager and a middle aged man played by Sean Connery).  Awesome movies that I've watched so  much that I know the dialogue, lol.  But NOTHING has ever touched me the way BBM has.  It haunts my every waking moment...just wish I could dream about it, too, ha ha.  I've really enjoyed your posts.  Donna

[Fla_Tim]

Is it just me or am I the only one who needed a dictionary to get through Annie's prose?

I, on my thirtieth reading of BBM, decided to sit in front of my terminal and google all the words and phrases i was unfamiliar with.  It was great !!  Resistol, Blue Heeler, species of plants, animals etc.  It made the story much more compelling.

I'm with you Patrick, I read the short story last weekend in about 20 minutes (I do read fast), but I found myself rereading certain passages and unsure about the meaning of some words. I thought myself pretty literate too, usually I'm the one asked to proof stuff at work and my partner is constantly calling me to ask him to spell some word he can't get close enough for a spell checker to correct.

I ordered Wyoming Stories, the soundtrack and the making of the movie this week and am looking forward to digging into he other works. Besides falling in love with BBM, I fell in love with her writing style. It is so gritty and real.

[Jack_ME]

OH Jack....how TRULY fortunate you were to have had that openess and love shared between you and your Dad.  There are SO many who have never had that experience.  It was YOUR initiation of the talk...that did it!!  If you hadn't....perhaps you and he would NEVER have known the love between the two of you.  Bravo to you Jack!!!  What a lovely memory...indeed!!  One that I'm sure you'll treasure...always.  A REAL 'Alma Jr./Ennis moment for sure!! 

Warm HUGS.....Nancy 

Thank you Nancy for your nice comments.

That event with my Dad took place about 25 years ago, but to this day, when I think of it, I can clearly see my Dad's joyous smiling face...and I DO treasure that memory. And I thank God that I was able to understand and act in time. For me that was a real blessing in my life.

I have known friends, other guys, and some gals, who "hated" their parent and the parent died and so these guys are left trapped in that attitude. Of course there are some parents who are truly bad and fully responsible for negative relationships with their offspring, but in my observational experience, many of these troubled relationships are focused on two factors: lack of real communication, and sexual orientation. It takes real work to come to grips with ones own sexual orientation (especially in years past, but I'm sure still today), and then it takes even more work to accept a parent's negative views on that, and to try to get that parent to learn to understand, either that it is no reason to condemn, or that the two CAN have a real loving relationship even if they can never come to agreement on the issue of sexual orientation. But that does take work, and from both individuals.

Jack in Maine

[Jack_ME]

Jack, so much appreciated your posts on BBM - the film, vs. the story.  Many good points raised. I have surely enjoyed the process in which this film engaged me -- the symbols and metaphors, the analyses, the comparisons, the studies of the tiniest, most subtle gestures, glances, words.  All of this has been entirely new to me, this intense interest in one particular film, to which I return again and again. Never ever happened before in my life. This afternoon I saw it for the eleventh time, not to check out any particular detail or effect, but just to bask in it, to revel its beauty and sadness. I likened the experience to having a really excellent meal, or a wonderful deep massage, or totally gratifying sex, something one is called back to revisit time after time after time.  What a gift it is!  And I thank you for contributing to my deepening understanding. Iris   

Iris, I know what you mean about never feeling like this about a movie before.  It is the same for me.  Never have I wanted to sit and just absorb every sound, word, gesture, facial expression....EVERYTHING about his beautiful movie.  It is in my heart and has affected my whole being.  I almost never buy movies.  One I can't afford many, and two I live in a small place, and don't have room for a lot of "stuff", lol, and most of mu stuff is furniture and books!  The only two movies I ever bought are AS GOOD AS IT GETS (some homosexual characters, starring Jack Nicholson &  Helen Hunt), and FINDING FORRESTER (friendship between a black teenager and a middle aged man played by Sean Connery).  Awesome movies that I've watched so  much that I know the dialogue, lol.  But NOTHING has ever touched me the way BBM has.  It haunts my every waking moment...just wish I could dream about it, too, ha ha.  I've really enjoyed your posts.  Donna

Iris, Donna, and all,
I too know just what you mean.

It is truly amazing how there has been such interest in and intense analysis of every aspect of this film's characters' lives and motivations. And what is the most amazing part, and the indication that this film is a real masterpiece, is that the film STANDS UP to this intense examination! Too many films I've seen don't bear close examination. There is either nothing there worthwhile to learn, or what one learns is that the film actually lacks any cohesive integrity of character. Not BBM! A real work or art.

Jack in Maine

PS: Donna, I just have to ask, is your user ID, actually your name, or does it mean something else, or is it possibly a trbute to another Donna Reed? The TV show was great, but several of her film roles were truly wonderful...I love D.R.! SHE would have been great in a film like BBM. She had that "genuine human" quality. (Way off topic again! sorry)

[juneaux]

  (By the way, the expression on her face when he agrees to attend her wedding makes my heart soar.  Not just for the characters either.  I see it as a testament to the ability of humans to learn from our mistakes and to make a conscious effort NOT to repeat them.)

Juneaux, this scene is so great!

I love the change in Junior's face from sadness to joy, and how that actress acomplished that so wonderfully with barely even moving her head, just changing her facial expression. It's great!

It had real resonance for me, because I saw that same wonderful change of expression on my Dad's face when I finally had my first REAL talk with him face to face. We had had a difficult relationship, and though I do have some small isolated pleasant moments from my childhood with him, in general we never spoke and I tried to avoid him. I left home at age 13 for school, and finally for good at age 17, and over the next decade analyzed and examined my relationship with Dad and gradually understood why and how it was that way, and finally realized I needed to speak to him, and so I did. After many aborted attempts. When I was 27 years old I sat across the table from him and I told him for the first time in my life that I loved him and that I was proud to be his son. I will never forget the change in his expression. (he had been a bit nervous as I had announced I was coming and needed to speak to him privately) But when I said that I loved him.....his face grew such an enormous wide smile from ear to ear. His faced changed just like Junior's did when Ennis told her he would go to her wedding. It's my greatest memory of Dad.

I also "reminded" my Dad at that talk that I was homosexual and I asked him if he knew what that meant. For me it was just important to say that to him, especially in the context of telling him I loved him and was proud to be his son. He and I only had about 10 years left, and only about 7 of those to communicate, as he got ill with Parkinson's and deteriorated badly over the last 3 years. But I have my memory, and I know I gave him something wonderful too. If I had to pick one accomplishment from my life that I was proudest of, it would be that moment and giving to my Dad the love he deserved, and opening up to him, so I could receive from him the love I deserved.

(this is way off topic! Sorry! Phillip feel free to move it to a Personal Blog space if you feel it should be)

Jack in Maine

Jack, It is wonderful that you have shared these times with your father.  Mom passed 5 1/2 years ago and it amazes me that the memories that mean the most are the ones in which we genuinely share with each other.  True emotional connections are rare for me~ maybe that is why this movie and short story have so much of my attention.

[iristarr]

Donna, I really enjoyed hearing from you.  I have to say this will be the first time in my life I've ever bought a DVD/Video.  Although I've always loved going to the movies, I've never studied one in the way I am doing with BBM, and it makes me curious now about other films that I liked at the time and what several viewings might reveal about them.  Also I'm hoping to find a class or group that exists to view and discuss films.  To that end I just last night signed up with Netflix, so I could view Ang Lee's previous work, and see Jake and Heath in other roles.  Looking forward to seeing TransAmerica tomorrow.  Peace, Iris

[donnaread]

Donna, I really enjoyed hearing from you.  I have to say this will be the first time in my life I've ever bought a DVD/Video.  Although I've always loved going to the movies, I've never studied one in the way I am doing with BBM, and it makes me curious now about other films that I liked at the time and what several viewings might reveal about them.  Also I'm hoping to find a class or group that exists to view and discuss films.  To that end I just last night signed up with Netflix, so I could view Ang Lee's previous work, and see Jake and Heath in other roles.  Looking forward to seeing TransAmerica tomorrow.  Peace, Iris

Hi Iris, thanks for the kind words.  I used to be a movie fanatic.  Love them to death, but since BBM I'm obsessed with it and ONLY it.  I saw it in the theater yesterday evening for the 9th time.  I am wondering how long it will be before the glow wears off and I'll be able to enjoy other movies again.  BUT, "There ain't no reins on this one" and I'm going to ride it as long as I can  .  I've been trying to see Jake and Heath's previous movies too.  Heath was really good (so sad, again) in Monster's Ball, and been trying to rent Jarhead, but it is always out, lol.  The only other obsession I've ever had is the Beatles and that was a long, long time ago.   Donna

[iristarr]

Donna, I know what you  mean about not wanting to see any other movies right now -- it seems almost sacreligious, in a way; as though doing so would pollute the pure emotions we've all been having on BBM.(Although I must confess I took a couple of my grandkids to see Shaggy Dog a couple of weekends ago!)  That said, I'm at the same time getting excited about seeing particular films now, like TransAmerica, that deal with gender issues, and other gay-themed films. Things that thread off from the BBM experience. Have you seen Angels in America, BTW? Another magnificent ground-breaker.

Nice to be getting to know you, Donna.  Peace, Iris

[Jack_ME]

Hi Donna and Iris and all,

I know just what you both mean. I saw BBM last afternoon for my 10th time. Went with a friend of many years...but we had had a falling out about 6 0r 7 years back and although we would meet in the same social circle of aquaintances and be friendly there, this was the first time he and I spent time together just the two. This was his second viewing. I was pleased he asked to see it with me. He knew I'm really taken with the whole experience and I feel it also affirmed that he trusted me emotionally, as the film really knocked him for a loop on his first viewing and he was a bit nervous to see it again. And it knocked him for a loop again! But it was nice to be able to comfort him just by my presence and then we discussed the film for about 4 hours! (Had dinner too)

I've brought hom tonight "Monster's Ball". I had not seen it, but I had heard that Heath's character in this film is in some ways similar to Ennis, so I'm curious to watch it. I also brought home "Ned Kellley" with Heath and Orlando Bloom, and I got a film, recommended by the video store gal, called "Lovely and Amazing" with Jake. Last week I watched "The Good Girl" and "Donnie Darko" with Jake and previously I had watched "Brothers Grimm" with Heath.


Honest to betsey I never even heard of either of these guys before Brokeback! I'm not that up on my pop culture!
Actually I'm really glad of that, because part of the powerful impact BBM had on me was that I ONLY saw the characters, since I had no clue who any of the actors were!

(side note, my video store is the best in the universe. No lie! It's a single locaton created way back when by a film affecionado, and he employs only other film buffs, and he stocks the most esoteric and fantastic stuff along with the usual new releases etc. It's amazing how many film titles he has in this store, for it's size! Thousands of titles! This comment is just a plug for the wonderful result of following one's interests. which this fellow did)

Well off to supper.

This thread seems to have drifted off topic! Not sure how we handle that. Maybe Phillip can move it to another location? Or maybe it doesn't matter.

Jack in Maine

[Aussie Chris]

Honest to betsey I never even heard of either of these guys before Brokeback! I'm not that up on my pop culture!
Actually I'm really glad of that, because part of the powerful impact BBM had on me was that I ONLY saw the characters, since I had no clue who any of the actors were!

Hey Jack, just on the subject of Jake and Heath before BBM, the thought of whether I would have a different opinion of BBM if I didn't know their work so well also crossed my mind.  Especially when I think of Donnie Darko since before BB, DD was my #1 favourite film.  In some ways, DD managed to capture how I see the world, at least in terms of being a bit of a disestablishmentarian.  I was therefore a little worried that I would somehow see "Jack" in "Donnie" or vice versa, but to my pleasant surprise I easily separate these characters.  It is only when I watch BBM that I see Jack and Ennis.  Maybe it's a testiment of their acting, or Ang Lee's direction, but I'm always completely transported into the world of BBM.

Before BBM the only film of Health's I really liked "10 things I hate about you", which I think was his first role in the U.S.  I haven't seen Monster's Ball but just about everything else Heath did between "10 things" and "Brothers Grimm" left me thinking what a waste of a movie ticket.  Clearly he thought the same thing and he has said as much in a number of interviews.

Jake on the other hand has always been one of my favourites ever since Donnie Darko.  He's always great and I've loved just about every film he's been in (except maybe for Day After Tomorrow and Jarhead).  If you get a chance check out Moonlight Mile.  It's a bit of a slow burn, but Jake's at his Indy best in it.

Congrat's also Jack on rekindling your friendship, what a lovely way to do it over our cherished film...

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

After hearing some of you guys nit-picking about differences between the story and the book, I must disagree. While it's true that certain mesmerizing aspects of the short story (such as "lil' darlin") were left out, the movie was very faithful to the book. It's remarkable, to me, how accurately the dialogue, characters, and mood is presented in the movie in comparison to Proulx's book. I do wish some of the scenes were in the movie as well but I do think, overall, the movie was a remarkably faithful adaptation. This thread has compelled me to go read the book right now.

Both works of art are beautiful and excellent.
 

[juneaux]

Both works of art are beautiful and excellent.
 

I wholeheartedly concur!   

[Aussie Chris]

After hearing some of you guys nit-picking about differences between the story and the book, I must disagree. While it's true that certain mesmerizing aspects of the short story (such as "lil' darlin") were left out, the movie was very faithful to the book. It's remarkable, to me, how accurately the dialogue, characters, and mood is presented in the movie in comparison to Proulx's book. I do wish some of the scenes were in the movie as well but I do think, overall, the movie was a remarkably faithful adaptation. This thread has compelled me to go read the book right now.

Both works of art are beautiful and excellent.

Was I one of the nit-pickers?  I agree, in fact I'm astounded that a short-story could be made into a screenplay and then into a film pretty much unaltered.  Has that ever happened before and worked as well?  Harry Potter comes to mind but I wouldn't say it worked as well?  In BBM, just about all of the dialogue is there, the nuances, the gestures, everything.  In my earlier posts I was just commenting that I was grateful that the film retained a subtlety that could have easily been lost with a lesser director.  So I'm right there with you on my gushing praise for both works of art.  They both give me pleasure in different ways, but in my heart they both are simply the story of Jack and Ennis.

[TJ]

I have been distracted by involvements in other forums not even connected the "BetterMost" ones and I forgot that I started this discussion thread back in March.

Reading Annie Proulx's original story, Larry McMurtry's & Diana Ossana's co-authored screenplay and watching Ang Lee's movie is like reading Matthew, Mark and Luke in the Bible, which are called the "Synoptic Gospels," but reading them one at a time before comparing them. All three gospels are basically the same in a way but there 3 different tellings of the same story. Two of the authors were Jews and one, Luke, was a Greek. Then, theres the Gospel According to John and it has quite a bit of things that are not in the other three gospels.

Since I initially posted the first message in this thread, I have seen lots of still pics online which seem to imply that some of the stuff which was in Annie Proulx's story and/or in the McMurty/Ossana screenplay could have been in the movie but was left out.

While the screenplay and the movie had Ennis hitching a ride to Signal with a semi-truck driver, the book has him driving his own truck there. I have seen still pics of Ennis and Jack wearing the very same shirts and jeans the wore in Aguirre's office and they are leaning against a GMC pickup which we see that Ennis drives later in Riverton. But, the truck is parked on the grassy area between the highway across from Aguirre's trailer and the railroad track.

On one of the BbM forums which likes to brag, in words to this effect, that it is better than any other Brokeback Mountain Movie forum on the internet, quite a few stated that they did not like the book at all but enjoyed the movie very much.

And . . . , some people on that forum said that while they the movie, they disliked the fact that the music for the movie was either real country music or the sound track was country & western music influenced. But, the music genres in the movie go along with what is in Annie Proulx's story . . . (and even with what is in the screenplay, too).

[FuzzyChanny]

Was I one of the nit-pickers?  I agree, in fact I'm astounded that a short-story could be made into a screenplay and then into a film pretty much unaltered.  Has that ever happened before and worked as well?  Harry Potter comes to mind but I wouldn't say it worked as well?  In BBM, just about all of the dialogue is there, the nuances, the gestures, everything.  In my earlier posts I was just commenting that I was grateful that the film retained a subtlety that could have easily been lost with a lesser director.  So I'm right there with you on my gushing praise for both works of art.  They both give me pleasure in different ways, but in my heart they both are simply the story of Jack and Ennis.

BBM is a LOT shorter than any of the Harry Potter books.

[Front-Ranger]

In my case I read the story in 1997, and saw the movie nearly 10 years later. I was glad that Lee excised the cruel treatment of Jack from his father because the excellent performance of John Twist said it all. But I missed some of the dialogue of Ennis that Lee/Ossana/McMurtry cut out, because the movie made Ennis into much more of an unattainable object of love and made Jack's situation so much more quixotic and heartbreaking. I even feel anger towards movie Ennis for leading Jack on through the reunion when he had no intention of following through. Ossana and McMurtry made the perfect decision to flesh out the supporting characters and women while leaving Jack and Ennis pretty much true to their story characters. In the story to screenplay book, McMurtry said something about short stories being more adaptable to film as opposed to long novels, where you had to spend most of your time figuring out what to cut.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I think somewhere Annie Proulx once said something like, "You can't have Ennis without Jack," and you sure can't have this movie without the short story.

At one level, that's obvious: No story in the first place, then no movie to be made from it. And what astonished me most about the film at my first viewing was how faithful it was to the original story. Even the characters created by McMurtry and Ossana to open up the story, sometimes (as in the case of Cassie) based on less than a complete sentence of Annie Proulx's original prose, were entirely plausible and worked very well.

I understand the position that the film and the story are two different works of art, but I still feel that anyone who refuses to take the story with him or her in attempting to understand the film does himself or herself a disservice, because sometimes in the dialectic of comparing the two, enlightenment can be found.

Someone on this thread mentioned Annie Proulx's essay in Story to Screenplay. I also heartily recommend Diana Ossana's essay in the same book. I found it very helpful in formulating my own conclusions about the movie.

[TJ]

I hope this area of the forums is a place where I have a right to voice my opinion without people telling me that I have to right to one because I am not from the big city or another country like in other forums not connected with bettermost.net. In what went on in those other forums, I was reminde of the country singer, Toby Keith, who claimed that the Dixie Chicks ladies did not have a right to freedom of speech because he wrote songs and they didn't.

In some cases, the screenplay writers (SW) took what was merely mentioned and created one of more scenes based on that.

Why the SW people decided that Jack Twist would be hired by his father-in-law makes no sense at all.

In the book, when Jack complained in 1967 about getting no financial help from Lureen's NO NAME father in the first place. Jack did not even work for the company until after the man who hated Jack's guts was dead.

Consider the ages of Jack's son when he is talked about in the book. The boy is 8 months old when he is first mentioned and then the next time Jack talks about him, he is 15 years old and has a learning problem.

In my opinion, if the screenplay writers had actually really been true to the original story, they would not have merely tried to keep the "spirit of the story" by adding their own spin to it.

In a Time Magazine interview, Larry McMurtry admitted adding women to the story because he likes women and think women understand men better than men understand themselves.

I have observed that while some women have special gifts when understanding some things about men, most of them really have little understanding when it comes to men who are exclusively homosexual in their sexual orientation. I have met heterosexual women who were professional therapists and the reason they had an understanding of gay men was due to what they learned mostly from a gay brother or son.

[TJ]

I created a new thread of discussion in the Main forum discussion area which is related to this one.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1225.0

[Front-Ranger]

A good question...

[brokebackjack]

I had not read it before seeing the film. It was provided to me by online buds at another forum; since then I have bought ALL Annie's work. In multiples, got them signed and gave them away. She has become my favorite author.

If you are obsessed by the film you need to read the short story. If you want details or insights, go the Front Ranger's thread about the bookfest in Casper last year/