Why not read the original short story by Annie Proulx?

[juneaux]

To be honest, Br. Pat, I haven't finished many of the *other* stories in the collection~ I tend to keep rereading the one that stole my heart.  I will let you know when I do complete them and my thoughts about the entire book.

I live in the South so didn't need to look up some of the terms about which Wayne was unsure.  However, I, too was clueless in regards to stemming roses.   

It is wonderful that the people on this board are so willing to share their thoughts about this story.  When I try to discuss it with my friends they call me obsessed.  (To be fair, this topic has dominated my thoughts and conversations for the past four months...)

[Phillip Dampier]

Hmmm, ok...  All of this may be true.  But I think the main point I was trying to make was that, as with all scripts, revisions are made as the pieces come together and the writer/producer/director sees what's working and what isn't.  So some things are changed or left out entirely and others are inserted based on the creative skill of the people involved.  When I read the short story I also revelled in the more explicit nature of the Jack/Ennis relationship, but I am happy that ALL of this was left out because this was a film predominantly about love and regret, and less about the sex that occurs.  Clearly you find the first tent scene unrealistic and the book gives you a way of explaining this sequence better.  You have a perfectly valid point, and maybe this could have been done better.  But does this admonition ruin the film for you, or does it just give you a reason to enjoy the book as well?  I like the idea of the latter.

The more graphic stuff being left out also cuts down the negative campaigning against the film, which turned out to be more muted than one would have thought.  There were no boycotts, just the usual nonsense that it was Hollywood trying to change America into a liberal bastion.  With more graphic sex scenes, I'm sure we would have heard more whining.  I didn't think the actual "sex" itself was as important as the conveyed emotions.  This was not at all a "turn on" film for me.  It was an emotional movie all the way through.

[Fla_Tim]

Over the weekend I read the short story for the first time, and it did me some good in dealing with some of the feelings I was left with after leaving the theater.

As some of you have said, Ennis's feelings for Jack come shining through in the short story, where in the film since he internalized so much, it is not as evident.

Probably the best thing it did was clear out some of the horror I felt watching the images of Jack's death. I came away from the film thinking Jack had been murdered, and possibly by his father-in-law. Annie Proulx's ending is somewhat cryptic, but the tire iron seems to be Ennis's nightmare of what he thought happened stirred up by what his father made him see as a child (the body of the murdered gay man). The author actualy starts the section talking about Jack's death something like "He heard about the accident...", and she is clear in the story when she talks about the father in law having predeceased Jack.

[donnaread]

Hi Lynne and Juneau.  In response to your posts about reading the story -- an evening or two ago I was re-reading it, and I noticed for the first time how (IMO) Ennis got a little shortchanged in the character-building department.  He's sometimes made me a tad impatient with his near-total emotional blockage and some viewers have voiced the opinion that they doubted the depth of his love for Jack.  

But here's what I think they left out: unless my ears failed me, Ennis never says "li'l darlin' during the kiss scene, as he does in the book.  In the motel scene he says, "I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you."  And in the next paragraph: "That summer, when we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate somethin bad at that place in Dubois.  Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights.  Too late then by a long, long while."

Not that I personally ever doubted Ennis' love, but I do believe these sentiments he expresses in the book round out and deepen my feelings about it and I think they might have a similar effect on other viwers, especially those not so addicted to the story that they stay up late at night discovering such little details six weeks after first seeing it.  Anyone else notice this stuff?  Iris
[/quote  Yes, Yes, Lynne, there are a lot of "little things" in the story that didn't make it into the movie.  Some I'm glad they didn't, like Jacks: "Guns going off".  I think its better he said nothing...that ground pounding was extremely sensual, and to me extremely "real"  Jack sounds like he's enjoying it, but its also painful.  He DOES sound like he's giving grunts of pain as well as pleasure.  Ennis says a lot more in the story than the book...Also, Jack doesn't tell Ennis (in the movie) about Aguirre seeing them, and you know Jack knows before Aguirre tells him that next summer.  When Aguirre comes to tell Jack his uncle Harold is in the hospital, he looks up through his binoculars to see Ennis on the mountain, and when he does, Jack gets a look of realization on his face that tells you that he knows Aguirre had been watching him and Ennis with those same binoculars.  Also, in the movie Ennis didn't tell Jack he broke down in the alley after they parted.  There are a bunch of "little things" like that.  I am SO glad they did the flashback of Ennis holding Jack by the fire...its one of the three times Ennis shows affection for Jack. The other two times are the 2nd tent scene, and when they reunite after four years.  But the reunion is more about passion and longing than tenderness.  Jack is much more affectionate and tender with Ennis than the other way around.  I LOVE the motel scene when Jack is holding Ennis against his chest, its just so sweet. 

[Fla_Tim]

And I just loved the spare taut prose of Annie Proulx. I had been reading a trashy gossipy novel, Saturday I read Brokeback Mountain and when I finished and started up reading the novel I felt like I was breaking out from the novel (Male Model), everything was described to the nth degree which gave me fits. I only got through it because these were the only two things I brought on an out of town trip.

Any reccomendations from Annie Proulx's other works?

[Jack_ME]

It's an interesting topic to discuss and compare Annie Proulx's short story, and Ang Lee's film. And it's worthwhile from the point of view of understanding how films are inspired and how they are developed and finally presented. I enjoy that sort of discussion myself.

However, I would like to make another point here,

The film is the film and the short story is the short story!

Unlike, for example, a factual documentary on the life of JFK wihich may have left a viewer with unanswered questions, unclear points, or omissions, and for clarification and answers to those questiions, the viewer could turn to an authorized published factual biography of JFK, one can not view the film, BBM and then turn to Annie Proulx's short story to answer questions about the film.

There are four main characters if one wants to discuss both media versions. There is Film Jack and there is Story Jack, and there is Film Ennis and there is Story Ennis. These are 4 independent artistic and fictional characters and artistic creations.

It is obvious that Ang Lee, Diana Ossana, and Larry McMurtry have based their film work on the short story but they were not creating a documentary of the story! In essence what they have done, and what every film-maker does who isn't creating a documentary, is INTERPRET that work of art from the one media into another work of art in a different media.

Consequently, while it is an interesting discussion to compare the two works of art, it isn't fair to use the one as an explanation of the other, or worse to fault the one for being different from the other.

Many here in this thread have commented on and noted the differences in the two media's versions  of Ennis's character, and in actuality the two Ennis's are NOT the same character, so it should be no surprise that they differ.

This is one of my personal soap-boxes, because it always amazes me when some people WON'T view and asess the film on its own merits. And if I stated the situation in reverese, the unfairness of it becomes quite obvious, namely to criticize Annie Proulx's short story for failing to present the more developed Lureen or Alma from the movie!  (creation sequence disregarded of course for this example)

I think both works are wonderful and amazing and true works of art in their respective media. And they each stand on their own.

Myself, I am quite happy to have both couples in my life!

As Phillip currently has in his signature line, Annie Proulx has said that the story is not finished until the reader reads it and brings his/her own interpretations to those words she has chosen in crafting her story. So surely Ang Lee has as much right as any other reader to bring his own interpretations to life. Annie Proulx has said that she was overwhelmed with how accurately he had got the essence of her characters.  So while she herself was obviously aware of these differences in the film from her story, she felt more than satisfied with Ang Lee's film presentation.


Jack in Maine

[Jack_ME]

  (By the way, the expression on her face when he agrees to attend her wedding makes my heart soar.  Not just for the characters either.  I see it as a testament to the ability of humans to learn from our mistakes and to make a conscious effort NOT to repeat them.)

Juneaux, this scene is so great!

I love the change in Junior's face from sadness to joy, and how that actress acomplished that so wonderfully with barely even moving her head, just changing her facial expression. It's great!

It had real resonance for me, because I saw that same wonderful change of expression on my Dad's face when I finally had my first REAL talk with him face to face. We had had a difficult relationship, and though I do have some small isolated pleasant moments from my childhood with him, in general we never spoke and I tried to avoid him. I left home at age 13 for school, and finally for good at age 17, and over the next decade analyzed and examined my relationship with Dad and gradually understood why and how it was that way, and finally realized I needed to speak to him, and so I did. After many aborted attempts. When I was 27 years old I sat across the table from him and I told him for the first time in my life that I loved him and that I was proud to be his son. I will never forget the change in his expression. (he had been a bit nervous as I had announced I was coming and needed to speak to him privately) But when I said that I loved him.....his face grew such an enormous wide smile from ear to ear. His faced changed just like Junior's did when Ennis told her he would go to her wedding. It's my greatest memory of Dad.

I also "reminded" my Dad at that talk that I was homosexual and I asked him if he knew what that meant. For me it was just important to say that to him, especially in the context of telling him I loved him and was proud to be his son. He and I only had about 10 years left, and only about 7 of those to communicate, as he got ill with Parkinson's and deteriorated badly over the last 3 years. But I have my memory, and I know I gave him something wonderful too. If I had to pick one accomplishment from my life that I was proudest of, it would be that moment and giving to my Dad the love he deserved, and opening up to him, so I could receive from him the love I deserved.

(this is way off topic! Sorry! Phillip feel free to move it to a Personal Blog space if you feel it should be)

Jack in Maine

[Jack_ME]

I have a question to all of you with ALL of Annie Proulx's Wyoming Stories.   Since I loved "Brokeback Mountain" I would consider ordering it if others recommend it.  Is it just me or am I the only one who needed a dictionary to get through Annie's prose?  I always thought that my vocabulary was above average but Annie uses such expressive words and sentences.  I quess that I just don't want to feel 'stupid' because I used a dictionary to get the most out of this story that has literally changed my life.

peace

Br.Patrick,

Annie Proulx does have a distinctive voice and if you enjoy that, over and above the content of BBM, you will enjoy her other stories too. But in case you are not aware, this is the ONLY story of hers dealing with this subject of homosexual love, as far as I know.

A little bio: Annie Proulx is about 73 years old now, and she has been married several times, and has several children by her different husbands. She is of French Canadian ancestry and she grew up in New England. She now lives in Wyoming. The only reason I'm stating these facts here, is that I know some people have assumed, and believed, that she herself was "gay". But as far as I know, that is not now nor has ever been true. (you can read her bio yourself at annieproulx.com)

So the bottom line is, if you like her writing, you will enjoy the rest of her stories. But if you are looking for more from her on the subject of Ennis and Jack's love or homosexual love in general, you won't find that in them.

Jack in Maine

[BBMGrandma]

. But I have my memory, and I know I gave him something wonderful too. If I had to pick one accomplishment from my life that I was proudest of, it would be that moment and giving to my Dad the love he deserved, and opening up to him, so I could receive from him the love I deserved.

OH Jack....how TRULY fortunate you were to have had that openess and love shared between you and your Dad.  There are SO many who have never had that experience.  It was YOUR initiation of the talk...that did it!!  If you hadn't....perhaps you and he would NEVER have known the love between the two of you.  Bravo to you Jack!!!  What a lovely memory...indeed!!  One that I'm sure you'll treasure...always.  A REAL 'Alma Jr./Ennis moment for sure!! 

Warm HUGS.....Nancy 

[BBMGrandma]

Evening Everyone....

I've just come from my 10th viewing of Brokeback Mountain...and I'm STILL rather taken aback at the emotional upheaval it stirs in my gut. 

As I sat down in the theater...a couple came in and sat directly behind me.  We were all early and they started chatting about what they were having for dinner.  Quite an argument ensued about whether they were going to have brocolli or green beans.  No problem...the movie hadn't started yet. 
When it started....about 8 minutes into the film...they started up again!!  This time the woman gave a huge sigh...and said...quite loudly..."I don't see what ANYONE sees in this movie...."
As I told someone else earlier....I wanted to turn around and tell her..."IF you kept your mouth shut...maybe YOU WOULD understand"  But I held back and moved my seat. 

I was holding it together quite well...or so I thought!!  Two scenes though...again...blew me away.  When Ennis cried out to Jack..."It's your fault I'm like this....nowhere..nobody..." and collapses into Jack's arms...I could actually feel my heart...almost bursting out of my chest.  And then, of course, the conversation at the end between Alma Jr. and Ennis...in his trailer.  Her smile lights up my heart.  Such a gamut of emotion in this movie.  PURE LOVE....and total despair. 

I'm learning SOO much about myself....and what I NEED in this life.  I'm learning that NO ONE is going to knock on my door...and bring happiness TO me. .  I have to be brave...and go OUT into the world....and find it for myself.  No one else can find my happiness for me....I need to GET OUT there...and search it out on my own.  It's sooo frightening though if you've been hurt...again and again.  The only other alternative is to live in a cave...alone!!  Gotta be BRAVE!! 

The film is the film and the short story is the short story!

I think both works are wonderful and amazing and true works of art in their respective media. And they each stand on their own.

Myself, I am quite happy to have both couples in my life!


[/color]

I SOO agree with you Jack.  I have all four of them tucked neatly inside my heart!!!  I can't compare them....they each have their very own niche....and in MY book...they're happy as clams together....always!!! 

Much Love....Nancy