What do you think of Spanking?

[dot-matrix]

There are a lot of parents here, I've  had some interesting talks  with  a few of you about parenting.  There are also a lot of us who have never had children.   BUT, we've all been children who have been disciplined.   SO....

What's you opinion on corporal punishment. Tell us your thoughts both pro and con.  If you're con what alternatives do you suggest, what works for you?   If you're pro tell us; How you determine what constitutes a spanking offense?   If you've been on the receiving end of spanking, how did it make you feel?  Did you learn anything positive from the esperience? Or did you feel humilated and degraded.... I'd like to know.

I was a child that spanking did nothing for except to embarass me and make me angry.  I personally don't feel it ever taught me anything except to be more circumspect in my actions...in other words it made me sneakier.

[David In Indy]

I answered "parental choice" believe it or not.

Personally I do not believe in spanking or other physcal punishment, but I'm also not a parent, so I really don't have any sense of the different challenges facing parents; especially in today's world.

My parents strongly believed in physical punishment. This was not unusual in middle America during the 1960's and 70's. Most parents back then physically punished their children. Both my mother and father believed in spanking. Mom would simply turn us over her knee and swat us with her hand. Dad would normally make us go out back and cut a switch off one of the bushes back there. If we came back in with an unacceptable switch (too small), Dad would go out there himself and find a suitable one. You didn't want him doing this either. His switches were ALWAYS big and they hurt... BAD!! Sometimes he would use his belt. The switch was better in my opinion because those metal belt buckles would leave a nasty welt. And how many swats? It just depended on what we did. If memory serves me, it was never less than 5 though.

If we were caught cussing or lying, Mom made us suck on soap. A bar of soap was inserted into our mouths and we sucked on it, without a drink of water, until mom was satisfied. In the early 70's they developed liquid soap and there was a liquid soap dispenser in each bathroom as well as in the kitchen. Mom would place some liquid soap on her index finger and then rub it thoroughly on the roof of my mouth so I couldn't get it out. No drinks of water were allowed and no spitting either. I would sit there for 15 or 20 minutes and taste the soap. I've always said it didn't do me any good either, because I still cuss and swear like nobody's business. 

When my sister and I were toddlers, Mom kept us on leashes when out in public. I had a blue leash and my sister had a pink one. We wore a harness around our chests, and the leash attached to the harness. I remember that even at such a young age, I felt embarrassed when I wore the leash. I can't really blame Mom for using it though. My sister and I had a tendency to run off and explore things when she wasn't looking.

I don't know Dottie. I'm not sure if these corporal punishments work or not. I don't think they really did me any good in the long run. But I sure do remember them! Sometimes I think parents hit and swat their children simply because it makes THEM (the parent) feel better. They are frustrated and hitting the source of the frustration feels good. I hate to think like this, but I have a feeling I'm probably correct. 

I really do believe it is the natural instinct of a child to try and please his or her parents. When a parent voices displeasure to the child, I think in most cases this is probably enough of a punishment, although a time out in the corner or canning them to their bedrooms may also be necessary in certain situations. But never hitting, or other forms of punishment such as sucking on soap. 

Good question Dottie! Thanks for posting it! 

[souxi]

I don't know Dottie. I'm not sure if these corporal punishments work or not. I don't think they really did me any good in the long run. But I sure do remember them! Sometimes I think parents hit and swat their children simply because it makes THEM (the parent) feel better. They are frustrated and hitting the source of the frustration feels good. I hate to think like this, but I have a feeling I'm probably correct. 

Your quite right David. The thing is, most parents hit in anger as a last resort. The angrier they get, the harder they get. The more the child screams, the harder they hit them to shut them up, and so it goes on. I also think parents hitting their children makes them nothing more than a big bully. It just sends them a message that says: "I,m bigger than you and if you don,t do what I tell you, I,ll hit you and make you do it". I also honestly think that there are people in the world who only have children so they can have something to yell at. My neighbours are a prime example of this. They are always screaming at their children, and they have no qualms atall about regularly telling them both to fuck off. The kids are about 7 and 5. They also shut them in their rooms and leave them to scream. If they keep on too long, the mother, (for want of a better word) thunders up the stairs and smacks the pair of them hard.
I remember last year, in the summer. The little girl was at school and the little boy, who was at the time too young for school was playing out in the garden by himself. I have no idea what he did,  but all of a sudden, his dad decided he had dome something wrong. He went flying outside, dragged him upstairs and smacked him. Now he must have hit him really hard because that child screamed and screamed and screamed. It made my blood run cold. I don,t have to hit my children to discipline them. They know by the tone of my voice to do as they are told. I simply take away a treat etc if they misbehave. There is nothing worse than being out somewhere and seeing some parent smack their child and watch the poor little mite screaming, with tears running down it,s face and seeing a big hand print on the backs of it,s legs. I think it,s cruel and should be against the law, punishable by prison and a heafty fine, and possibly having the children taken away from you.

[Penthesilea]

I voted "It's child abuse."

Spanking, hitting, slapping, beating children is wrong. Period.

Every person has the right of physical inviolability and to be treated with respect. I think most people will agree on that. But many forget this guideline when it comes to (their own) children.

Is it acceptable to hit other adults when they truly annoy you? - No
Is it acceptable when a man hits on his wife? - No.
Why should it be acceptable to hit children?


Voting "child abuse" I have things in my mind like Dottie and David recieved. Planned and concious actions by parents who think they have the right to corporal punish their children. That's child abuse in my mind. It is now and it was then, but to cut their and other parents some slack, I know times were different and it wasn't seen as child abuse then. It was more normal.

I wouldn't use the term "child abuse" when it happens not regularly, when the corporal punishment is not too strong (a slap, not half a knock-out beat) and when it is not done with "premeditaion". When a parent just loses it and slaps the child once or twice on the hand or butt - it's still wrong but I wouldn't call it child abuse.
In the end, we're all just human and we all make mistakes. And parenting can be a very hard business. I have three children and I know the feeling of helplessness and utter despair when NOTHING seems to work (at some days). And I know the feeling when you want to hit your children, when you think there's no other way now.

And yes, I'm guilty, too. In the earlier years, it happened twice that I put my oldest daughter over my knee and hit on her butt three or four times. I was simply overstrained, desperate and it just happened. I never ever would have thought this is possible because I feel really strong about not spanking children.
Afterwards I felt so guilty and so mean. It was a horrible experience for both of us (but more for my daughter of course) and I can't take it back. But what I can do is to never let it happen again. And although I've been very, very tempted many times I managed to survive the last nine years without corporal punishment against my children and without getting completely nuts. And yes, some days it was just surviving. But it get's better as they get older.

[dot-matrix]

I don't want to give anyone the impression that my brother and I were beat for misbehaving.  We were NOT, we had loving and supportive parents.  But there were rules to live by and responsiblities to be shouldered.   I only have one memory of my Mother ever raising her hand to me and it was on a occassion when I was mouthing off something terrible and I called her a rude name.  Nothing foul, but something said in the school yard alll the time but certainly not anything you'd ever say to your Mother.  She slapped me across the mouth so fast I was shocked.  The shock of that slap alone was enough that I can honestly say I never spoke back to my Mom again.  It is also the only corporal punishment I ever received from her and the only that, in hindsight, I think I richly deserved.

Ordinarily my Mother punished by withholding priviledges or long wished for things.  When that failed then spankings were my Father's area.  He would sit us down and talk to us about what we had done, how disappointed he was in us (which hurt me more than anything else and would have had the desired effect if left at that while I stewed in my room) and the he explained how this was going to hurt him more than it hurt us....my unvoiced thoughts were always "yeah right!"... but I know I was never struck hard enough to bruise or leave a mark and never more than 3 times and always on the buttocks only.  It was humiliating, degrading and as I said it really pissed me off.  But it never hurt me and it never caused me to think for one minute that my parents didn't love me....Oh I got mad at them and conjured up  "they be sorry one day" scenarios in my mind but it was all just so much childish brouhaha.

I don't know what I would do if I had an unruly child to deal with along with all the dangers, temptations and stresses of modern life.  I grew up in a much simplier time, when it was safe to walk to school.  Teddy and I would take off in the morning after chores and not see home again until dinner time and my Mother never had to worry,  Kids can't have that kind of freedom today.  That lack of freedom combined with parental pressures I think is making both parents and kids a little crazy today.  I agree with David about there seeming to be more out of control kids around with ineffectual parents just shusshing them.  I don't know what the answer is, I don't believe it lies in corporal punishment but at the same time I don't know what it is.  That's why I'm interested what everyone thinks.

[ifyoucantfixit]

  

Well I dont like to pull the age and experience thing here, but some children demand more than simple time outs, and revoking of priviledges.  They get out of hand, as the terminology goes.  There is lots and lots of gang and other types of behavior being vented on others and society, primarily from children that have never been taught the perimeters of behavior, and acceptance. 
 
I have raised four of my own, and ten grandchildren, and helped friends and relatives with countless others.  I have meted out very very little corporal punishment in my time.  I have slapped the mouth as Dottie mentioned, and that is very effective also for an upstart mouth that only gets worse as time goes by, if left unabaited.  I have spanked, (not beaten) on rare occasion, when the threats no longer held the hoped for effect.

But i am more than well aware there are some kids that need a spanking from time to time, or those that have never had one that society in general would have benefitted from them having.  Its a narrow street to walk, but a necessary one I feel...I dont believe its child abuse.  I think  to allow a child to be a terror is just as much an abuse.  lots of kids never need it at all.  Others however do...IMHO

[delalluvia]

I voted "for" spanking.    Too many kids today are out of control.        Part of the beauty of the spanking is just the threat of one.     My Mom would say :" You'd better behave or your father will spank you when he gets home".    That was usually enough of a threat t oget us to behave.    LOL

And I have no memory of ever being spanked!   

Ditto.  I agree it should be a parental option.  It has its drawbacks like any technique (e.g. as a loner child, timeouts would have meant nothing to me.  Sit in my room?  Sure, I'll read, color, write stories.  Where's the punishment?).  Spankings work on some kids and not on others.  It sure worked on me.  I have memories of being spanked, but it was never in anger and only happened 3 times. 

I was a fast learner. 

Like nut, after that, it was just the threat that kept us in line.

[dot-matrix]

WOW we've had 136 views of this poll but only 11 votes.  Interesting.  Well I thought y'all might like to see the results of the same poll, held on another website.  This one had 5038 respondents and like ours invited both parents and non parents to vote.


Child abuse, plain and simple:         0.7%   36 votes
Not abuse but should be outlawed by the government:        0.4%   20 votes
A parental choice with benefits and drawbacks:    70.1%       3532 votes
A good strategy for instilling discipline:    28.5%       1435 votes
No opinion         0.3%        15  votes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Total Votes:  5038

In another seperate Poll on the same site, this one labled just for parents,  it finds that 43% of parents responding find spanking an effective and acceptable form of punishment.

[ifyoucantfixit]

      That Dottie seems to be the norm around here.  Like selling a house.  Lots of lookers, and no

buyers.. I had over 160 people look at my campaign issues poll..only seven people voted...I dont know if

some people dont care about the heavy issues, or if they dont want others to know their opinion for

whatever reason...

[injest]

Well the problem is that spanking is not black or white. I mean...there are graduations....for example, your toddler is trying to pull something over on top of himself so you say "NO!" and pop that diaper enough to startle him....teaches him that "NO!" means stop and look at mom. Taking a board and leaving bruises...that is child abuse. Spanking a small child with your hand or switch in the privacy of your home is vastly different than slamming a preteen to the floor of a public store and slapping him, yelling "Who the Hell do you think you are?" until he cries out "Nothing! I am nothing! I am nobody".

I believe popping a diaper with an open hand is ok. I think spanking in private is ok.

other than that no. I don't.

and I don't want anyone else spanking my child. I remember a teacher in fifth grade that would assign twenty questions a night as homework. She would paddle you for every question you got wrong. I only got that paddle once...but I still remember her rubbing that paddle over my behind and the utter humiliation I felt. One boy couldn't take it and jumped up and ran away one day. We never saw him again. I think she did it because of some sick enjoyment...not to help us.

[Scott6373]

I am totally in favor of "spanking"...both for unruly children and adults...in fact, there should be spanking stations located in every town...when someone get's out of line, a professional spanker would take care of that little issue right then and there.

[louisev]

Corporal punishment is not for the child, it's for the parent.  It has been demonstrated conclusively that P.E.T. (Parent-effectiveness training, or the "logical consequences" method of child discipline) is effective.  The problem with using a logical consequences model is that it requires maturity and persistence on the part of a parent.  Hitting a kid is easy, particularly when you are angry and want to.  And that is precisely when it is the worst thing to do.

P.E.T.  is a behavior model in which children are rewarded for positive behavior with desirable activities (usually with the parent) and punished with withdrawal of rewards.  Like "clean up your room" gets an hour of a favorite show and a trip to the ice cream shop after dinner.  No clean up room, no ice cream, no tv.  It took about 2 1/2 weeks of using a chart with check-off points on it for desired behavior (clean up room, do homework, go to bed on time) before my stepson, who did have behavioral problems related to his mother's sudden death and two years of ensuing court battles, was a model child.

[delalluvia]

Corporal punishment is not for the child, it's for the parent.  It has been demonstrated conclusively that P.E.T. (Parent-effectiveness training, or the "logical consequences" method of child discipline) is effective.  The problem with using a logical consequences model is that it requires maturity and persistence on the part of a parent.  Hitting a kid is easy, particularly when you are angry and want to.  And that is precisely when it is the worst thing to do.

P.E.T.  is a behavior model in which children are rewarded for positive behavior with desirable activities (usually with the parent) and punished with withdrawal of rewards.  Like "clean up your room" gets an hour of a favorite show and a trip to the ice cream shop after dinner.  No clean up room, no ice cream, no tv.  It took about 2 1/2 weeks of using a chart with check-off points on it for desired behavior (clean up room, do homework, go to bed on time) before my stepson, who did have behavioral problems related to his mother's sudden death and two years of ensuing court battles, was a model child.

If you'll excuse me, this method assumes a middle income family and also that

1) the child has a close relationship with the parents
2) that the child has 'little privileges' to begin with

In families such as I was raised, we kids cleaned up our rooms period.  That was one of the many labors performed around the house for the privilege of living with our parents gratis.  This wasn't ever an option.

Dessert taken away as a punishment?  What dessert?  A dessert was a treat we got maybe once or twice a year.

Favorite TV shows?  We had one TV and our parents controlled the set from sunup to sundown.  We had to ask to even watch a show to begin with.

Outings with the family?  I guess if you call accompanying your parents shopping for groceries or hardware an 'outing'.  We didn't do movies except rarely, and only when my parents wanted/could afford to go.  If they didn't, we didn't go and we rarely ever went.  I think I could count on the fingers of one hand the times we went to the movies as a family and still have fingers left over.

We kids did kid things, parents did grown up things.  The only things we did together was take vacations every summer.

Think of Jack or Ennis as children growing up.  What privileges did they have to lose?

[moremojo]

If you'll excuse me, this method assumes a middle income family and also that

1) the child has a close relationship with the parents
2) that the child has 'little privileges' to begin with

In families such as I was raised, we kids cleaned up our rooms period.  That was one of the many labors performed around the house for the privilege of living with our parents gratis.  This wasn't ever an option.

Dessert taken away as a punishment?  What dessert?  A dessert was a treat we got maybe once or twice a year.

Favorite TV shows?  We had one TV and our parents controlled the set from sunup to sundown.  We had to ask to even watch a show to begin with.

Outings with the family?  I guess if you call accompanying your parents shopping for groceries or hardware an 'outing'.  We didn't do movies except rarely, and only when my parents wanted/could afford to go.  If they didn't, we didn't go and we rarely ever went.  I think I could count on the fingers of one hand the times we went to the movies as a family and still have fingers left over.

We kids did kid things, parents did grown up things.  The only things we did together was take vacations every summer.

Think of Jack or Ennis as children growing up.  What privileges did they have to lose?

Shit, that's hard.

[ifyoucantfixit]

I am totally in favor of "spanking"...both for unruly children and adults...in fact, there should be spanking stations located in every town...when someone get's out of line, a professional spanker would take care of that little issue right then and there.

       You are so silly/!!!!!!!                         

          Bend over........you can be first

[Jeff Wrangler]

OK, I just went with "parental choice with benefits and drawbacks."

Yes, I was spanked as a child, but not regularly and not often.

Skimming through the thread, I see lots of interesting points.

Louise's report on Parent Effectiveness Training is very interesting, but the first thought that popped into my head is, What do you do with a very young child who does something potentially dangerous--like get into the medicine cabinet? I got spanked for something like that once. I wasn't even in school yet. I climbed up on a chair in the kitchen to go after something I saw on shelf in the cupboard, the package of yummy, orange-tasting chewing gum--which actually was a sore-throat remedy called Aspergum (do they still make that stuff?). That probably wouldn't have killed me, but after that spanking, did I ever go after something like that again? Hell, no.

I'd rule out belts and switches, though. To me that doesn't sound like spanking, that sounds like beating (OK, so maybe it's a fine line). My mother used her hand, and, on occasion, a small wooden paddle, a little smaller than a ping pong paddle, that came form a toy we had in my childhood--a rubber ball attached by a rubber band to the wooden paddle, the idea being you kept bouncing the ball off the paddle (do they still make those things?).

As for Scott's suggestion, I've long felt that there are plenty of young thugs running around--and quite a few older ones--who would benefit more from a public flogging than they would from sitting in jail, where they just learn even worse villainy than what put them behind bars in the first place. 

[ifyoucantfixit]

       Ok I came here to give my opinion of "What did i think of Jeff Wrangler"  Thats the way the bump read...lol    

   But now that im here.  I have already given my opinion... But to answer your questions Jeff.  Yes to both of them.. They do still

   make Aspergum, and those paddle ball sets...

        I still believe that with certain children a good hard swat or two on the behind is a valuable tool, of drawing their attention,

   when the talking is not getting the job done...I dont believe in using things to hit them with that would leave a mark of any kind.

   Believe me when i tell you I know the differences between a spanking and a beating....TAKE MY WORD.  I vowed never to strike my

   one of my children in anger...It was not as has been mentioned for my benefit.  I hated to do it.. They could even tell you, it was always

   a last resort.  Always something they had been told repeatedly not to do...Something that would endanger them if they continued to

   do it.   So I stand by my former answer.

   And as to my first thought....I approve very much of Jeff.  He is a fine looking intelligent, and funny young man....and a wonderful

   traveling companion.........tee hee
  

[Jeff Wrangler]

    And as to my first thought....I approve very much of Jeff.  He is a fine looking intelligent, and funny young man....and a wonderful

   traveling companion.........tee hee
  

Aww. ...   

[Scott6373]

Aww. ...   

Let me guess...it was the "young" part that you liked best 

[Kelda]

       
   And as to my first thought....I approve very much of Jeff.  He is a fine looking intelligent, and funny young man....and a wonderful

   traveling companion.........tee hee
   

 

[louisev]

the P.E.T. model does not imply anything about income level.  It implies that withdrawal of reward (or of positive attention) can be a potent influence on child behavior.

Jeff does bring up an excellent point about age being a factor in being able to apply the method though.  However I disagree that spanking is more suitable for younger children who don't quite grasp logical consequences.  I think it is less suitable.

[mvansand76]

I voted "for" spanking.    Too many kids today are out of control.        Part of the beauty of the spanking is just the threat of one.     My Mom would say :" You'd better behave or your father will spank you when he gets home".    That was usually enough of a threat t oget us to behave.    LOL  

Oh I have to strongly disagree with you.... You see, the really interesting question is "why are they out of control?" and "is this the child's fault?". And to echo Chrissi, why in the hell is it OK to hit your child, when it's so NOT ok to hit your wife or husband or just anybody on the street?

I vote "No, absolutely NOT!". There are too many parents who take their lifelong frustrations out on their children and so many children are actually being molested by their parents and the line between spanking and abuse is so fine. I would say keep your hands off your child and find a different way to discipline him/her and start finding out why your child is out of control and what your part is in that.

I think spanking is putting the blame of the child's behavior entirely with the child, when the parent is to blame as well. This sets a bad example and burdens the child with feelings of guilt that are destructive for him/her.

[David In Indy]

      That Dottie seems to be the norm around here.  Like selling a house.  Lots of lookers, and no

buyers.. I had over 160 people look at my campaign issues poll..only seven people voted...I dont know if

some people dont care about the heavy issues, or if they dont want others to know their opinion for

whatever reason...

This is one of the things that discourages me the most as moderator of this forum. I'm always trying to encourage people to not only cast votes in the polling threads, but to leave comments as well, in order to start a dialogue. I've tracked the traffic in this forum for about 6 months now, and there's a lot of it! Lots of visitors but few contributors. 

[Shasta542]

I got a few spankings when I was little growing up  and I don't feel like I'm warped because of it. No one yelled at me, and I never had bruises or anything---really--it didn't hurt. haha  But I had people who loved me and looked out constantly for my well-being.  I was definitely never abused. I was talked to a lot. 

So many kids today get no attention from their parents unless the parents are screaming/cussing at them or hitting them. That is heartbreaking---giving your children a good raising has to be top priority--that doesn't mean giving them everything they want, but giving them everything they need.

Discipline means "teaching" -- what is the best way to teach your child? If you love the child, you won't administer physical or emotional harm. If you need to spat their bottoms, send them to their room, have a sit-down discussion, etc---you should know your child well enough to know what works and what doesn't. Whatever you do, the child should be aware that there are consequences to bad choices on their part, but you have the responsibility to guide them in making wise choices. And that guidance should start at an early age.

[Jeff Wrangler]

the P.E.T. model does not imply anything about income level.  It implies that withdrawal of reward (or of positive attention) can be a potent influence on child behavior.

Jeff does bring up an excellent point about age being a factor in being able to apply the method though.  However I disagree that spanking is more suitable for younger children who don't quite grasp logical consequences.  I think it is less suitable.

OK, seriously, does the P.E.T. model address what to do with very young children who get into situations like I did? Spanking is less suitable than--what?

[David In Indy]

Oh I have to strongly disagree with you.... You see, the really interesting question is "why are they out of control?" and "is this the child's fault?". And to echo Chrissi, why in the hell is it OK to hit your child, when it's so NOT ok to hit your wife or husband or just anybody on the street?

I vote "No, absolutely NOT!". There are too many parents who take their lifelong frustrations out on their children and so many children are actually being molested by their parents and the line between spanking and abuse is so fine. I would say keep your hands off your child and find a different way to discipline him/her and start finding out why your child is out of control and what your part is in that.

I think spanking is putting the blame of the child's behavior entirely with the child, when the parent is to blame as well. This sets a bad example and burdens the child with feelings of guilt that are destructive for him/her.

I got a few spankings when I was little growing up  and I don't feel like I'm warped because of it. No one yelled at me, and I never had bruises or anything---really--it didn't hurt. haha  But I had people who loved me and looked out constantly for my well-being.  I was definitely never abused. I was talked to a lot. 

So many kids today get no attention from their parents unless the parents are screaming/cussing at them or hitting them. That is heartbreaking---giving your children a good raising has to be top priority--that doesn't mean giving them everything they want, but giving them everything they need.

Discipline means "teaching" -- what is the best way to teach your child? If you love the child, you won't administer physical or emotional harm. If you need to spat their bottoms, send them to their room, have a sit-down discussion, etc---you should know your child well enough to know what works and what doesn't. Whatever you do, the child should be aware that there are consequences to bad choices on their part, but you have the responsibility to guide them in making wise choices. And that guidance should start at an early age.

I think both Melissa and Shasta make excellent points. And for the most part I agree with them.

I still feel it should be a right for a parent to swat their children. But it should be a right that is rarely, if ever exercised. In this part of the country people still do swat their children occassionally. But if done in public, these parents are met with very nasty stares from others around them. Times have changed since I was a kid, thank God.

I also fully agree that the behavior of children is the responsibility of the parents. If the child is raised badly, with questionable values, he or she will exhibit a bad behavior. Plain and simple. And it's the parent's fault.

I'll never forget when I was living in Evansville, I was friends with a woman raising her grandson. The boy's name was Stephen. Stephen's parents more or less abandoned him when he was younger. He was an out of control child. One day when I was riding in the car with my friend, and Stephen began kicking the back of the driver's seat with his foot. My friend (I'm leaving out her name for privacy reasons) asked him to stop it several time, but he continued to do so. Finally she pulled the car over to the side of the road, turned around and raised her hand to him. She didn't plan on hitting him, but she did raise her hand. Stephen immediately said "If you hit me, I'll call that child abuse number when we get back to the house and have you arrested!" My friend asked Stephen where he planned on living after she was in jail and he answered "I'll move in with David!" I thought to myself "Oh, the HELL you will!" There was NO WAY that ill behaved, out of control 12 year old would EVER live with me! But you see, kids these days are now smart to the idea that if they are disciplined in any manner they find objectionable, they can pick up a phone and call a number. And they sometimes use this as leverage against the parent. I've seen it firsthand!

So what happens how? Somehow things in this country have swung a full 180 and instead of parents controlling their children, the children are controlling the parents with threats!  

[David In Indy]

 I got spanked for something like that once. I wasn't even in school yet. I climbed up on a chair in the kitchen to go after something I saw on shelf in the cupboard, the package of yummy, orange-tasting chewing gum--which actually was a sore-throat remedy called Aspergum (do they still make that stuff?). That probably wouldn't have killed me, but after that spanking, did I ever go after something like that again? Hell, no.

I had a similar experience Jeff. My Grandmother kept a yummy tasting, marshmallow flavored liquid in a bottle on top of her toilet tank. The first thing I would do when we arrived at grandma's house was to run up the stairs and into the bathroom to drink some of it. One day my mother caught me doing it and she swatted me within an inch of my life. Then it was dad's turn. Then I got a long lecture from my grandmother. I still don't know what that stuff was, but I never touched it again after that day.

I was always eating and drinking things I shouldn't. Mom stopped buying me crayons because I would eat them. I was always disappointed to find out the purple crayons didn't taste like grapes and the yellow ones didn't taste like lemons. I ate paste in school too. Lots of it. And I often sucked the sugar coating off those One A Day vitamins. Once, I went through a half a bottle of them. I didn't swallow them. I'd just suck off the sugar coating and then spit them out. I also remember eating half of my mother's lip stick! I got in BIG TROUBLE for that! 

And I got swatted each and every time I did something like this. After I got punished, I would stop eating that one particular item I was being punished for, but I always found something new and different to try. I was a weird kid, I guess.   

[injest]

Oh I have to strongly disagree with you.... You see, the really interesting question is "why are they out of control?" and "is this the child's fault?". And to echo Chrissi, why in the hell is it OK to hit your child, when it's so NOT ok to hit your wife or husband or just anybody on the street?

I vote "No, absolutely NOT!". There are too many parents who take their lifelong frustrations out on their children and so many children are actually being molested by their parents and the line between spanking and abuse is so fine. I would say keep your hands off your child and find a different way to discipline him/her and start finding out why your child is out of control and what your part is in that.

I think spanking is putting the blame of the child's behavior entirely with the child, when the parent is to blame as well. This sets a bad example and burdens the child with feelings of guilt that are destructive for him/her.

Do you remember "Tough Love"? It was a fad that went around back in the eighties I believe...they had books and videos and were featured on all the talk shows. They advocated taking no flack from kids and throwing them out on the street if they misbehaved...

Well, I was flipping through the book one day. One of the founders was discussing his twelve year old daughter. They went into counseling and it came out that he was molesting her nightly. "But that is NOT an excuse for her to be disrespectful to me or not obey me"

OY!

[Shasta542]

"I'll move in with David!"    

I bet you could have had him lined out in a couple a weeks!!   

[injest]

I think both Melissa and Shasta make excellent points. And for the most part I agree with them.

I still feel it should be a right for a parent to swat their children. But it should be a right that is rarely, if ever exercised. In this part of the country people still do swat their children occassionally. But if done in public, these parents are met with very nasty stares from others around them. Times have changed since I was a kid, thank God.

I also fully agree that the behavior of children is the responsibility of the parents. If the child is raised badly, with questionable values, he or she will exhibit a bad behavior. Plain and simple. And it's the parent's fault.

I'll never forget when I was living in Evansville, I was friends with a woman raising her grandson. The boy's name was Stephen. Stephen's parents more or less abandoned him when he was younger. He was an out of control child. One day when I was riding in the car with my friend, and Stephen began kicking the back of the driver's seat with his foot. My friend (I'm leaving out her name for privacy reasons) asked him to stop it several time, but he continued to do so. Finally she pulled the car over to the side of the road, turned around and raised her hand to him. She didn't plan on hitting him, but she did raise her hand. Stephen immediately said "If you hit me, I'll call that child abuse number when we get back to the house and have you arrested!" My friend asked Stephen where he planned on living after she was in jail and he answered "I'll move in with David!" I thought to myself "Oh, the HELL you will!" There was NO WAY that ill behaved, out of control 12 year old would EVER live with me! But you see, kids these days are now smart to the idea that if they are disciplined in any manner they find objectionable, they can pick up a phone and call a number. And they sometimes use this as leverage against the parent. I've seen it firsthand!

So what happens how? Somehow things in this country have swung a full 180 and instead of parents controlling their children, the children are controlling the parents with threats!  

 

You call his bluff! Tell him to feel free to call the number....he might enjoy being in foster care! Even if by some chance the authorities DO come out...all they will do is take a report and go on....

the threat is more mental then real. I have called child services before...trust me it is not easy to get them involved!

[David In Indy]

"I'll move in with David!"    

I bet you could have had him lined out in a couple a weeks!!   

  

  

 

[Kelda]

I had a similar experience Jeff. My Grandmother kept a yummy tasting, marshmallow flavored liquid in a bottle on top of her toilet tank. The first thing I would do when we arrived at grandma's house was to run up the stairs and into the bathroom to drink some of it. One day my mother caught me doing it and she swatted me within an inch of my life. Then it was dad's turn. Then I got a long lecture from my grandmother. I still don't know what that stuff was, but I never touched it again after that day.

I was always eating and drinking things I shouldn't. Mom stopped buying me crayons because I would eat them. I was always disappointed to find out the purple crayons didn't taste like grapes and the yellow ones didn't taste like lemons. I ate paste in school too. Lots of it. And I often sucked the sugar coating off those One A Day vitamins. Once, I went through a half a bottle of them. I didn't swallow them. I'd just suck off the sugar coating and then spit them out. I also remember eating half of my mother's lip stick! I got in BIG TROUBLE for that! 

And I got swatted each and every time I did something like this. After I got punished, I would stop eating that one particular item I was being punished for, but I always found something new and different to try. I was a weird kid, I guess.   

I am giggling just thinking about your eating habit david.

[pettifogger]

I voted parental choice.  It should be used only as a last resort and should never be done in anger.  I also think no impliment should be use.  The flat open palm against the buttocks only, just firm enough to get their attention combined with a stern talking to and time to reflect in private.  Likewise I think after the punishment has been metered out it is important to reinforce that the child is still loved and it is not the child but the behavior that is unacceptable.  So many grow up with damaged self esteem because parents fail to do this.

[delalluvia]

the P.E.T. model does not imply anything about income level.  It implies that withdrawal of reward (or of positive attention) can be a potent influence on child behavior.

Jeff does bring up an excellent point about age being a factor in being able to apply the method though.  However I disagree that spanking is more suitable for younger children who don't quite grasp logical consequences.  I think it is less suitable.

Well, I don't see how you can escape it, when 'rewards' imply something a child is getting/wants to get.  Positive attention from the parent?  Well, I guess that's OK if a child feels close to their parents and wants to hang out with them.  Again, the P.E.T. model makes assumptions about a child's home life, both in income and relationship with the parents.

If a child is too young to grasp logical consequences, then talking to them, time outs/privileges lost isn't going to make much sense to them either. 

[Jeff Wrangler]

If a child is too young to grasp logical consequences, then talking to them, time outs/privileges lost isn't going to make much sense to them either. 

That's what I was thinking, unless, in a situation where the child has attempted to do something potentially dangerous, somehow the "talking to" is gonna scare the bejeezus out of them.

[injest]

That's what I was thinking, unless, in a situation where the child has attempted to do something potentially dangerous, somehow the "talking to" is gonna scare the bejeezus out of them.

well younger kids don't understand danger like we do...they think they are immortal or death is something that is not permanent....and when they get old enough to conceptualize it...well, then you are the parent and what the heck do you know??