Author Topic: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack? -- by StreetWithNoName  (Read 7035 times)

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What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by StreetWithNoName   (Fri Jul 21 2006 20:51:00)


Do you think he would've remained completely in the dark about his homosexual nature? There are a few reasons why I believe that would've been the case:

1) Ennis was never properly socialized (orphaned early on, abandoned by siblings shortly afterwards), and probaly never experienced first-hand what it mean to love or be loved. His feelings for Jack were probaly the first of their kind, and it just so happened that he (Jack) was a man instead of a woman.

2) It's implied that he was a virgin before meeting Jack, and thus, was a "blank slate" as far as sexuality and romantic emotion went.

3) He doesn't try to form relationships--sexual or otherwise--with any other man besides Jack.

It almost seemed like Jack met Ennis for a reason, to introduce Ennis to the innermost part of his being. If their fateful meeting on the mountain never occured, I don't think Ennis would've even experienced any homosexual attraction; he probaly would've just conformed to the social construct of the heterosexual male.



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by honeybellashley   (Fri Jul 21 2006 21:59:37)


I think he would of kept it inside feeling ashamed about it and denying it and i believe he would have lived out his life as a straight man with a wife and children never experiencing true happiness. While also denying himself the full potential of his love.



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by vhw11   (Sat Jul 22 2006 00:40:34)


There will be no such film "Brokeback Mountain" to haunt our hearts and souls,
it Ennis never met Jack.



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by don8946   (Sat Jul 22 2006 04:52:40)


The author said it herself..."You can't have Ennis without Jack."

Time heals all wounds until you run out of it.



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by Santinos_Bridesmade   (Sat Jul 22 2006 06:51:20)


Jack was the missing piece in Ennis's life and vise-versa. According to fate, they were soulmates. They were part of each other, so if they'd never met, they'd live their lives with that void in their souls. If he'd never met Jack, Ennis would have been even more introverted and miserable. Better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all.

My imaginary friend thinks you have serious mental problems.



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by HellsThorn   (Sat Jul 22 2006 13:22:45)


Ennis would be better off unfortunatly, who knows if the gay tendencies were even real before Jack. If they weren't, than Ennis would of been fine, live a life with Alma, but if he was gay before Jack, than thats still a problem, he would be less happier.

"I'm sorry, I'm Sorry." "its alright."



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by kajunite   (Sat Jul 22 2006 13:49:55)


It amuses me how some people try to make Ennis a straight man seduced by Jack and that's when all Ennis' troubles began. No man is going to have anal sex as easily as these two did if one of them is new to it. Ennis turned Jack around like a pro, people! He KNEW what he was doing...



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by ScissorhandsRaineyluv   (Sat Jul 22 2006 14:19:16)


^
Ennis was a virgin...

"Should he tell her? Should he not tell her? He's torn, Georgie. This is drama." Ed Wood



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by StreetWithNoName   (Sat Jul 22 2006 17:20:15)


It amuses me how some people try to make Ennis a straight man seduced by Jack and that's when all Ennis' troubles began.

If by "some people", you're referring to me, I suggest you read my original post a little more carefully. I never claimed that Ennis was straight; I merely believed that he was in the dark about his sexual orientation until he met Jack. The level of repression that Ennis evidenced from the outset makes me wonder how he would've lived his life if he had never been confronted with his own attraction--both emotional and sexual--to another person. I'm not suggesting that Jack "turned" Ennis gay.



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by clockworkgirl21   (Fri Aug 4 2006 11:19:39)


It amuses me how some people try to make Ennis a straight man seduced by Jack and that's when all Ennis' troubles began. No man is going to have anal sex as easily as these two did if one of them is new to it. Ennis turned Jack around like a pro, people! He KNEW what he was doing...

LOL. That's right. Ennis was gay/bisexual from the start, he just may have not realized it until Jack came along.

www.youthrights.com
Seriousness is the only refuge of the shallow.



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by Santinos_Bridesmade   (Sat Jul 22 2006 16:01:09)


He would absolutely not have been better off. He had a loveless marriage with Alma, and would've whether or not he knew Jack. He was homosexual - NOT bisexual. Jack helped Ennis come out of his shell. Jack was the only one who knew the real Ennis. Alma, try as she might, could never have gotten through to Ennis like Jack did. Who else could spur a public display of affection from him such as one in the reunion scene? You could tell Ennis had had it pent up in him for 4 long years.

My imaginary friend thinks you have serious mental problems.



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by HellsThorn   (Sat Jul 22 2006 17:21:34)


Oh, yes, thanks BBM historian. And you obviously missed my point. I said if he was straight before the Jack encounter, he could of had a good life with Alma, but if he was gay before Jack came about, than his life would be worst, why do i repeat myself? Sometimes i feel like i have to.

"I'm sorry, I'm Sorry." "its alright."



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by Santinos_Bridesmade   (Fri Aug 4 2006 10:53:32)


Really, why do some people just have the hardest of times comprehending the fact that Ennis was gay before he met Jack? You don't simply become gay because of one person that intrudes on your life.

Vote to get this higher in the top 250! http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by mars_nr1   (Fri Aug 4 2006 11:10:21)


That's not the question. You don't become gay because of one person that intrudes on your life, but you may realize that you're gay because of such a person. And if you've never met such a person and live a straight life, will you become unhappy? Even if you're gay and live a straight life you don't have to become unhappy, you can have a lovely wive and live can be much easier if your path is already paved, which it is far more for straight people as it is for gay people.

Follow the white rabbit....



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by Santinos_Bridesmade   (Fri Aug 4 2006 11:26:17)


You're obviously missing the bigger picture. If Ennis had never met Jack, yes, he'd have had a comfortable, peaceful marriage with Alma, but by no means a satisfactory life. During those four Jack-less years with Alma, she could never satisfy him sexually. A woman could never have satisfied Ennis in any way. Ennis was living a sham, and Jack was a breath of fresh air. Why do you think, when reunited with Jack, he couldn't contain himself and devoured him as if starving, despite Alma being right there? Ennis lived for those ocassional "fishing trips" with Jack. Ennis did find happiness with Jack, so when reunited, Alma became a mere obligation to Ennis, and then a burden. Overall Ennis would have been "better off" had he left himself love Jack. Had he never met Jack, he'd have gone on living a sham with Alma - a comfortable sham, but a sham nonetheless.

Vote to get this higher in the top 250! http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/



bump
  by LauraGigs   (Tue Aug 29 2006 09:14:44)

interesting ....so it's not deleted



Re: What would have happened to Ennis (spoiler)
  by richardg49   (Tue Sep 12 2006 13:29:03)
UPDATED Tue Sep 12 2006 17:43:37


Given Ennis' tendency to resort to violence when challenged or confronted, there is also the horrible possibility that he could have turned into the same kind of bigoted, gay-bashing homophobe that his father had been, the sort of person he imagines in that 'vision' he has of Jack's death.



Re: What would have happened to Ennis (spoiler)
  by malina-5   (Tue Sep 12 2006 22:01:24)


<<there is also the horrible possibility that he could have turned into the same kind of bigoted, gay-bashing homophobe that his father had been, the sort of person he imagines in that 'vision' he has of Jack's death. >>

I see what you're saying, but I don't think he would've gone that far without some other external factor .. without something major happening to him. Actually, I don't think he would've been capable of it at all. Ennis is a good person. He's full of frustration and rage, but not full of hate. Yes, he has a tendency to resort of violence.. but at the same time, he stops short of actually injuring anyone. He uses only his fists.. he just seems to need to throw that first punch, to get relief from whatever it is he's feeling. It's qualitatively different from killing someone with a tire iron.

But I do think that, without Jack, he would've had much less self awareness. He would've been dissatisfied and not known why. He wouldn't have developed as a person. Over time he would just grow more lonely and withdrawn. But horses and ranch work would be a relief. He would've thought that's all there was to life.



Re: What would have happened to Ennis (spoiler)
  by latjoreme   (Tue Sep 12 2006 23:08:33)


<< He's full of frustration and rage, but not full of hate. Yes, he has a tendency to resort of violence.. but at the same time, he stops short of actually injuring anyone. ... It's qualitatively different from killing someone with a tire iron.>>

I completely agree. His motivations for violence are also very different from his father's. He acts compulsively, not premeditatively. He is letting out frustration, not torturing someone for their behavior.

The closest he comes to using violence to punish someone's behavior is with the bikers. But they were obnoxious and provocative, not just going about their own business and being gay.

Actually, when Ennis tells the story of Earl and Rich, he expresses subtle admiration for them ("tough old birds").



Re: What would have happened to Ennis (spoiler)
  by ailuro   (Mon Sep 25 2006 20:47:46)

Who keeps posting only to delete? Its irritating to click the damn topic only to find not a new post but a deletion.

If ya want to bump, just bump.



[2 Posts deleted by an administrator]



Re: What would have happened to Ennis (spoiler)
  by dly64   (Tue Sep 26 2006 10:08:27)


Quote
djo9449: This all probably woudn't have happened if these two "friends" hadn't met. I agree, that Ennis would probably had less self-awareness, and would not have felt as fulfilled, and just would have continued on in his normal routine, without experiencing what a true, meaningful relationship is all about.

I completely agree! I don't think either one would have found anyone else that would have come close to what they meant to each other. I doubt that Ennis would have even had a gay relationship if he wouldn't have met Jack. Jack ... he probably would have had a gay relationship, but it certainly wouldn't have been anything close as to what he felt for or had with Ennis.
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em" - Ennis, BBM



Re: What would have happened to Ennis (spoiler)
  by malina-5   (Tue Oct 3 2006 17:53:21)

bump



[6 Posts deleted by the poster]



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by nonoclaudine   (Tue Oct 17 2006 06:56:44)


Ennis would have been just fine. At some point (probably in the later
1970's) he would have acknowledged his secret tingly feelings and
booked an appointment with an attractive masseur. As time went on,
Ennis would have been more and more comfortable and would have
eventually left his nag wife to open a bed & breakfast in New
Mexico.



Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by the_kid_qwellz   (Wed Nov 1 2006 11:42:20)


Always so cheerful ... U should write a screenplay & send it to Ang's agent


Throw the Jew in the well / so my country can be Free -Borat



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by stephen-mellor   (Wed Nov 1 2006 14:02:33)


An interesting thread. Many interesting ideas. Here's mine (though I make no claims about it being interesting.)

There's been a lot of discussion about Alma's reaction to the Reunion Kiss. Without starting in on that again, it's my opinion that Alma mostly simply didn't know what to do with the information. She did not have the vocabulary to say "My husband is gay" or even "My husband is in love with a man." She might have been able to say "My husband showed more passion with him than with me," but now what? Indeed, it took her 12 years for the water to widen, no real trouble, until she divorced. (God, I love Annie's prose.)

I think the same would apply to Ennis: He wouldn't have the vocabulary. He'd marry Alma (because that's what people do in 1963), and be happy enough sexually ("I enjoy doin' it with women, yeah..."), but I'd guess he'd think something was missing. But he wouldn't act because he has no idea what that something is.

Could he have met a man? I doubt it. I'm amazed he came out of his shell enough to find Alma, but I guess that was like the Cassie episode: she came to him. A man? That man would have to break down so many barriers to reach Ennis, including now the additional barrier of his marriage. Jack had the advantage of having Ennis for about a month, mostly alone, no distractions, and he pried him open bit by bit. Also, Ennis at 19 would be "driven," shall we say, making Jack's advances more likely to be accepted than later in Ennis' life.

With such a closed man, Alma well may have divorced him anyway. It's not just passion but also the emotional connection, and Ennis showed that only with his girls and Jack. I guess he'd end up in that same trailer. Without the shirts, without the memory of Jack, without any love in his life--even a lost love.

Such a sad sad sad story no matter how you imagine it.



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by HeathandMichelle   (Tue Dec 26 2006 15:51:49)
UPDATED Tue Dec 26 2006 15:52:56


Like so many people, gay, straight, married and single people, Ennis would have lived a life of quiet desperation. Never living and experiencing a life with their real true love. Too many people live the same way. That's why I think this movie connects so much.



[2 Posts deleted by the poster & 1 by an administrator]



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by anml-lvr   (Tue Nov 28 2006 21:57:38)


I agree.
In addition, during the final scene when they are together, Ennis implies to Jack that his life has been ruined because of Jack. I think it's because he felt they would be killed if they everlived together and so he(Ennis) was forced to live a life of shame....in the closet...



[2 Posts deleted by an administrator]



Re: bump
  by Hatsumomo-hime   (Tue Dec 26 2006 16:22:21)

bump

iin na naomosa mitsumete aruku



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by RingerFanatic   (Tue Jan 2 2007 23:07:45)

bump



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by dav0001   (Wed Jan 3 2007 00:02:41)

grump



[3 Posts deleted by the poster & 2 by an administrator]



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by shilling119   (Tue Jan 30 2007 02:47:44)

I'm sorry this is off topic, I have been enjoying the tone of this thread.

But what does BUMP mean?



Re: What would've happened to Ennis if he never met Jack?
  by monsieur_potiron   (Tue Jan 30 2007 06:45:56)

it means you're posting a message to bump the thread up in the most recent message so it doen't disappear...



[1 Post deleted by the poster & 8 by an administrator]
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Offline TrollHammer

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Thanks for reviving this TH!

(I'm now back after a long unanticipated absence...)

You're welcome.

Hey there, Bud. :-*  I've been so out of it I didn't realize you'd been gone long.

And I was still miserable that Clancy hadn't ever returned to the "other" board -- before realizing he'd been back for a month! :o  Knew there was a new guy writing long posts whose eloquence people were praising. :-\  Was sad 'cause it just wern't the same. :'( :laugh:  Last week I saw where he told a dumbass troll he wasn't a lot like Clancy, he was Clancy. 8)  Couple days ago I more closely read a few of his posts and sure recognize him! :D

As of July 4, the day after stealth-bumping ceased to be possible "over there," there were 397 threads.  I've saved 305 of those at least once and tried to update my saves of any that were later about to fall off.  I've continued to try to save newer threads that are about to fall off also.  I got your CD, like, forevvvurrr ago but haven't even managed to open the envelope; but I will, and at some point will send you a CD of my saves, and I'll try to still help with the reposting.

Of the 92 that I didn't save, you had already reposted many of them here.  As much as I could I copy-pasted new posts since the repost version.  Unfortunately I missed some newer Ranch-Del-T threads and some recent posts in some older Ranch-Del-T threads before his account came down.  Plus I know of one thread about the music that vanished mysteriously without my having read and perhaps saved it.  And many threads created after July 4, could go missing and I wouldn't know it.

Feel free, of course -- and so should everyone here -- to ask about specific threads.  Worked for this one. :)  (This particular request I spotted "over there.")

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