Author Topic: Black Hats, White Hats  (Read 61032 times)

Offline ednbarby

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Black Hats, White Hats
« on: May 08, 2006, 04:03:01 pm »
On my most recent viewing, yet another question came up that I don't think has been addressed yet here (and if it has and I've missed it, I apologize).

We all know that when Ennis and Jack are apart, there always seems to be a black hat in the background whenever Ennis is out in public.  But has anyone else noticed that there seems to be only one black hat in Ennis' backgrounds, but there are always more than one in Jack's?

My little viewing party and I (mind you, after a few glasses of wine on Saturday night) came to the consensus that the single black hat in Ennis' world means there is only one other man for him, whereas the multiple black hats in Jack's world mean that though he loves Ennis best of all, he is secure enough in his own sexuality that he can be satisfied, at least for a little while, by other men.

What do you think?
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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2006, 06:03:42 pm »
I would say that the reason that (the movie) Ennis has a smaller wardrobe of hats is that he is too poor to own very many or even more than a couple of hats at a time over the years. My version of logic also fits the original Annie Proulx story.

I don't think that there is any special symbolism in the hats at all.

I have more than one black cowboy hat, all felt type, and that is because they are not the same style of hat. I even have cowboy hats in various shades of brown and they are made of different materials.

One of the reasons that you see another cowboy with a black hat in the background in the movie is that is just what the wardrobe guys gave for the atmosphere person, aka extra, to wear.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2006, 06:29:03 pm »
My little viewing party and I (mind you, after a few glasses of wine on Saturday night) came to the consensus that the single black hat in Ennis' world means there is only one other man for him, whereas the multiple black hats in Jack's world mean that though he loves Ennis best of all, he is secure enough in his own sexuality that he can be satisfied, at least for a little while, by other men.

I'm with you, Barb. I haven't noticed this, in fact I still have barely registered the background hats at all. But this makes sense. Keep that wine flowing!


Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2006, 11:17:33 pm »
**most excellent topic**

I always thought the black hat/ white hat issue had to do with the ying and yang idea.  The idea that Ennis and Jack are "opposites" but rely on one another and each also contains a little bit of the other.

It's nice that the hats in the background aren't always consistent.  It would be too much if all the hats in the background of Jack were always white, and vice versa.  I think we just see Jack in crowds a lot more than we do Ennis.  And on a simple level, this explains why there are more hats (of each color behind Jack). I mean, Jack goes to busy, crowded bars (Ennis goes to pretty small, lonesome bars), Jack is a performer (and is surrounded by lots of crowds at the rodeo), goes to "proper" dinner dances with Lureen and other couples, etc.  Jack is simply more social and "worldly" (in that he travels, seeks out companionship etc., while Ennis tries to hide from people, and doesn't seem to seek out the same social atmospheres as Jack).  However, for both Ennis and Jack, I think there are significant moments when background hats and their colors are really symbolic and important.  There are lots, but I'll just mention a few for now.

-I think the key example is in the Cassie/pie scene at the bus station.  Many people have noted the poignant detail of the two men (one in a black hat and one in a white) at the bus counter buying a ticket and getting out of town.  A sad reminder of what Jack and Ennis could have done together.

-One of my favorite moments of Ennis and a black hat is in the scene where Alma Jr. is watching Ennis and Cassie dance.  The only other couple dancing near them is a man in a black hat and a woman with lots of tattoos.  The man in the black hat is tilting his head in such a way that he looks like a "generic" guy in a black hat... It seems like a big clue about what's on Ennis's mind.  Almost like a thought bubble in a cartoon...

-An interesting and complex moment with Jack and background hat colors is in the Jimbo bar scene.  Clearly Jack seems attracted to Jimbo as a kind of "Ennis substitute" made clear by the white hat (the freaky, too white hat) and the white shirt.  When Jimbo rejects Jack and walks to the pool table his buddies close in around him to listen to what he's saying... and in that group there are two black hats and two white hats.  I don't know exactly how to read that, but I've always noticed it.  Ever since my first few viewings.

-And, regarding Jack and white hats... People have noticed that at the rodeos there are often an abnormally large number of guys in white hats in the stands.  Also when he's selling tractors there are often mostly men with white hats.

OK, I'll stop before I go on and on about the man in the white hat that walks out of the frame behind Ennis during the parting conversation with Jack during the Brokeback summer while Jack and Ennis are leaning on the black truck...
 ;)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2006, 11:20:25 pm by atz75 »
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2006, 11:49:17 pm »
OK, I'll stop before I go on and on about the man in the white hat that walks out of the frame behind Ennis during the parting conversation with Jack during the Brokeback summer while Jack and Ennis are leaning on the black truck...

LOL - I love you Amanda!  I watched BBM a couple of days ago and after weeks of listening to your observations, I can say I had a tremendous time watching for hats and knowing glances, etc.  These just never registered for me in the dozen previous viewings!  What can I say, I think I'm missing a chromosome.

Ok, so I'm a bit of a newbie when it comes to this degree of symbolism, but I did notice that Jack in Black Hat and Blue Shirt is really only the first impression we get with him, after coming down from the mountain he doesn't have these colours.  He wears a fawn coloured hats from then on, not that dissimilar to Ennis'.  Is this symbolically relevant?
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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2006, 12:55:08 am »
We also have to remember that if the movie were to based on the lives of real people, and the movie makers were not trying to inject symbolism into the scenes, the hats themselves would have no special meaning whatsoever.

While in the old Western movies, the good guys always wore white hats, the good guys in the real Old West usually wore what they could afford to buy.

I amusing ask "What does yin and yang (a Chinese philosopy) have to do with the color of cowboy hats in Wyoming?"

Offline starboardlight

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2006, 02:06:26 am »
We also have to remember that if the movie were to based on the lives of real people, and the movie makers were not trying to inject symbolism into the scenes, the hats themselves would have no special meaning whatsoever.

I would disagree with that. Just because we dramatize a real person, doesn't mean that we can't employ interesting story telling devices to help out the story development. Look at the various historical plays done by Shakespeare. Julius Caesar is rife with symbolism and foreshadowing. I do think the hats take on symbolic meanings here. They don't affect the story progression directly, but they do offer us a second and third layer of meaning and interpretations.

Quote
I amusing ask "What does yin and yang (a Chinese philosopy) have to do with the color of cowboy hats in Wyoming?"

The yin/yang dynamic comes from Ang Lee's eastern background and offer us an understanding of the dynamic between Ennis and Jack. It describes not only the fact that the men are opposite in personality, but also the fact that they somehow complete one another. In addition, they exert a push/pull influence on one another through out their lives. It's an interpretation to be sure, and until Ang Lee comes out and say it is or it isn't there, we can argue about it. We do know that in his various film, Ang Lee draws from Asian traditions, symbolism and imagery to help tell his stories. It's assumed that he does the same here, even if Wyoming is not China. The references simply add another layer of meaning that we can choose to read into or to ignore depending on your take of the film. To me the reading of yin-yang to describe the men's relationship fits like a glove, so I'm with Amanda in recognizing it as being significantly poignant.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2006, 09:30:31 am »
Amanda, I've noticed the two white hats and two black hats at the pool table every time, too.  I'm not sure how to read that, either, but I can't shake the thought that it is somehow significant.  Perhaps following the yin and yang symbolism, black hats are one kind of man and white hats are another.  Are black hats secure in their sexuality and white hats are not?  That doesn't work, because there are way too many white hats in all of Jack's backgrounds.  Are black hats fixers and white hats standers?  I think I'm maybe getting warmer on that one.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2006, 02:43:44 pm »
LOL - I love you Amanda!  I watched BBM a couple of days ago and after weeks of listening to your observations, I can say I had a tremendous time watching for hats and knowing glances, etc.  These just never registered for me in the dozen previous viewings!  What can I say, I think I'm missing a chromosome.

LOL, thanks Chris.  You're a sweetie.  Also thanks for all the interesting comments ednbarby and starboardlight...  I like your idea, ednbarby, that black and white might have particular meanings... like fixer vs. stander (by the way, I feel like I'm speaking in a special Brokeback language when write things like that... fun!).  I don't know what to make of Jack switching to light hats once in a while (reunion kiss and post-divorce).  Why doesn't Ennis change his hat color ever?

And, thanks starboardlight... you explained perfectly what I meant by yin and yang.  I think that's a really important component of the movie actually.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2006, 03:00:55 pm »
LOL, thanks Chris.  You're a sweetie.  Also thanks for all the interesting comments ednbarby and starboardlight...  I like your idea, ednbarby, that black and white might have particular meanings... like fixer vs. stander (by the way, I feel like I'm speaking in a special Brokeback language when write things like that... fun!).  I don't know what to make of Jack switching to light hats once in a while (reunion kiss and post-divorce).  Why doesn't Ennis change his hat color ever?

And, thanks starboardlight... you explained perfectly what I meant by yin and yang.  I think that's a really important component of the movie actually.

I agree - I think the idea of yin and yang (two halves of the same whole, broken down the middle, pushing and pulling at each other) is central to the movie.  Along the lines of the Broken In Two discussion, I think the name lends itself to this concept.  I know, I know - Annie Proulx has never said this is why she named it what she did, and maybe it wasn't even a conscious choice on her part.  Regardless, I think Ang Lee took it and ran.  He said he liked "the taste of" the title Brokeback Mountain.  I take this to mean that there is a whole lot more meaning there to him than just a quaint name for a particular range.

And I think Jack's willingness to change his hat color shows his flexibility - his willingness to do whatever he has to do to keep his love alive.  Ennis' lack of change in hat color can similarly be seen as symbolic of how rooted he is in the way (he thinks) things have to be.  I just watched Memoirs of a Geisha the other night, and one part of the narration struck me in an Ennis-y/Jack-y way (there I go with the special BB language again ;)):  The older sister was "like a tree - rooted steadfastly in the earth, unmoving, solid."  But Chiyo was "like water - and when water finds itself trapped, it carves out a new path."
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2006, 03:07:00 pm »
Why doesn't Ennis change his hat color ever?

Good one! Because he doesn't change himself ever? Because he steadfastly tries to play the acceptable "white hat" role?

On a related but slightly OT note, I always notice that in the pie scene, Ennis is wearing an uncharacteristic plain gray shirt. Does this mean anything? Does it mean he's confused or depressed (since I think he is both)? I think he wears it at least one other time -- perhaps in the Twist ranch scene? Is he confused then?

Or maybe it's just a shirt. But in this movie, when is anything just an anything?

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2006, 03:12:35 pm »
Good one! Because he doesn't change himself ever? Because he steadfastly tries to play the acceptable "white hat" role?

On a related but slightly OT note, I always notice that in the pie scene, Ennis is wearing an uncharacteristic plain gray shirt. Does this mean anything? Does it mean he's confused or depressed (since I think he is both)? I think he wears it at least one other time -- perhaps in the Twist ranch scene? Is he confused then?

Or maybe it's just a shirt. But in this movie, when is anything just an anything?

OH-MY-GOD.  I think this is HUGE!  And why on Earth did I never notice it before???

To me, throughout the movie, Jack always wearing solid shirts symbolizes his security in his sexuality.  Ennis always wearing light, patterned shirts symbolizes his lack thereof.  If he's wearing a solid shirt in the pie scene and in the Lightning Flat scene, even if it is light in color (and all the more appropriate, really), this CLINCHES that he was ready to accept himself as he was and therefore possibly make a go of having a life with Jack.

HOLY crap.  Now I've gotta watch it again tonight.  DARN you, Katherine!  ;)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2006, 03:26:09 pm »
OH-MY-GOD.  I think this is HUGE!  And why on Earth did I never notice it before???

To me, throughout the movie, Jack always wearing solid shirts symbolizes his security in his sexuality.  Ennis always wearing light, patterned shirts symbolizes his lack thereof.  If he's wearing a solid shirt in the pie scene and in the Lightning Flat scene, even if it is light in color (and all the more appropriate, really), this CLINCHES that he was ready to accept himself as he was and therefore possibly make a go of having a life with Jack.

HOLY crap.  Now I've gotta watch it again tonight.  DARN you, Katherine!  ;)

Barb, I've never been so pleased to be cursed! ;)

I LOVE your interpretation. I hope I'm right about when he wears the solid color. I know for sure he does in the pie scene, but I haven't seen the movie in weeks, and my memory of what he's wearing at the Twists is not trustworthy. I went to my old reliable reference source, YouTube, and the site is down. So Barb, you and other DVD-owners will have to check it out and report back!

It would be funny if that's it, wouldn't it? How many movies make you figure out major plot points by analyzing the color of the characters' shirts?

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2006, 03:55:49 pm »
But, would Ang Lee tell an interviewer or just a member of an audience that he used the Asian tradition of "yin and yang" to make the movie?

When I studied design and color composition/theory in college art classes, we did not use anything related to religious traditions to explain why we created our designs nor did the professors refer to Asian traditions during class.

But, if you see programs on TV related to what we studied in class, such as architectural design and home improvements, so many of the experts on the shows and the people they are working with have to use Asian religious terminology to explain why they did certain things.

There were no orientals in the movie/story itself as major or minor or minor characters.

IMO, to claim that Ang Lee used the theory of yin and yang when we don't even know whether he did it or not is called "eisegesis," the adding of personal ideas and one's own world view in to a piece of art using "visualized words" or a piece of writing using "word pictures."


Offline ednbarby

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2006, 04:19:38 pm »
Hey, now - I'm not saying that's the absolute answer and that any other interpretation is wrong, TJ.  Just that it's mine.

For what it's worth, Jake says that Ennis and Jack are the yin and the yang in one of the special feature interviews (I forget which one - sorry about that).  It may very well just be his interpretation, but it makes me think they all must have discussed it in rehearsal.  But then, maybe I'm just transferring my own personal ideas and world view onto a piece of art again.  ;)
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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2006, 08:08:36 pm »
If you were to meet a real life Ennis Del Mar or Jack Twist and you were to mention them being "yin and the yang" in their relationship with each other, they would ask, "Hunh?", "Huh?", "Say whut?", or "Come agin?"

But, if you told them that they go together like a horse and wagon or a mule with loaded packs, they would understand what you were saying.

This discussion reminds me of those who have attempted to use astrology to define the personalities of the main characters of the story.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2006, 09:10:26 pm »
 >:(
I was about to continue the discussion about the topic of the thread, but I just have to say this...

Philosophies, whether western or eastern, can be applied and discussed in extremely wide-ranging contexts and most certainly across cultures.  That's the whole point of a "philosophy"... to use it as a tool in analysis, interpretation, debate, etc.  It would be a very closed and segregated world if philosophies had to be constrained to the location/culture of their origin.  Why shouldn't Chinese philosophy be applied to a western context or vice versa?  The world is hopefully a fluid enough place to allow for this.  I'd also like to say that I don't think Chinese philosophy has much if anything to do with astrology.  I think it's a bit patronizing to Chinese philosophy to make such an assertion.

Further, when discussing a film in terms of interpretation and personal observation there is no reason on earth to feel constrained by what one might feel is the exact intention of the author, either Lee or Proulx (though there's no way to ever really know or prove either author's intention) or to stick to the exact literal circumstances of the plot as it's spelled out.  Literary theory, film theory, art history, etc. are built on these notions.  Proulx (for what it's worth) has said that she expects the reader to complete her stories themselves.  She's clearly been reading up on Roland Barthes' literary theory in making this statement.

The production of this story/ film is an incredible work of hybridity.  This is a story about gay men, written by a straight woman, and in the movie those gay men are portrayed by straight men and while this is a "western" film (in terms of the genre "western") it's directed by an Asian man.  Further, the story by the single straight woman was adapted and re-written by a man and a woman for the film.  To only think of the story one way (only as about Wyoming or western culture, or the specifics of cowboy culture, or any single context) misses the complexity of the situation.  There is no one right answer to these questions or ideas.  That's the fun of all these discussion here on the board (at least for me).

I think the application of a concept like yin and yang to the story of Jack and Ennis is absolutely beautiful.  The fact that it's a somewhat surprising juxtaposition (perhaps) makes it all the more intriguing I think. 

I absolutely agree with what ednbarby said above... 

Quote
I think the idea of yin and yang (two halves of the same whole, broken down the middle, pushing and pulling at each other) is central to the movie.  Along the lines of the Broken In Two discussion, I think the name lends itself to this concept.  I know, I know - Annie Proulx has never said this is why she named it what she did, and maybe it wasn't even a conscious choice on her part.  Regardless, I think Ang Lee took it and ran.  He said he liked "the taste of" the title Brokeback Mountain.  I take this to mean that there is a whole lot more meaning there to him than just a quaint name for a particular range.

I'd go so far as to say I think the design of the movie poster hints at the yin and yang idea.  The intersecting black and white hats and the opposing yet overlapping profiles subtly suggest... if nothing else... the idea of opposites that rely on one another for definition or that are inextricably linked.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2006, 09:18:20 pm by atz75 »
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TJ

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2006, 09:23:49 pm »
This discussion reminds me of an conversation which I have heard lots of times when a person inquired why someone did something a certain way.

Person one, "Why did you do that?"

Person two, "'Cause."

Person one, "'Cause why?"

Person two, "Just because, no reason. I just did it."

Offline akredhead

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2006, 09:45:34 pm »
Hi! New member here...

As far as white/black hats are concerned...I've always thought it was an idea of innosense...

I mean, Jack basically took Ennis's virginity...and in a sense...Ennis is never "man" enough to own up to his true self...its like he is still a child trying to figure out a way to keep stealing from the cookie jar but never getting caught.

Whereas, Jack is not innocent and is the instigator of their relationship...he is the tempting cookie Ennis wants to steal but doesn't want to get caught with.

Does this make any sense at all? HAHAHA! ;)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2006, 10:01:54 pm »
welcome akredhead!  I like the photos, etc. in your signature too.  :D

I agree, there's certainly something to the idea of innocence vs. experience in the hat colors too.  Black and white definitely have a lot of longstanding symbolic associations like that.   I think in certain ways, Ennis's constant choice of a white hat (following on latjoreme's comments above) shows that he's always trying to be the "good" boy or "good" cowboy too in terms of doing what he thinks is conventionally expected of him... his sense of societal duty, etc.  This leads right into the idea that Jack's black hat helps signify him as a "black sheep" or a rebel/ non-conformist. 

Does anyone remember that great old imdb thread... I think it was titled "Jack the Black Sheep"

Quote
Whereas, Jack is not innocent and is the instigator of their relationship...he is the tempting cookie Ennis wants to steal but doesn't want to get caught with.

LOL!  :D
« Last Edit: May 09, 2006, 11:59:57 pm by atz75 »
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2006, 12:41:34 am »
Person two, "Just because, no reason. I just did it."

I think you're being a little unfair here TJ.  No one here is saying things just are and for no reason.

The concept of Yin & Yang is not Chinese, only the expression is.  You yourself provided a more cowboy-like way of expressing the same concept so there's no reason it could not be applied to BBM.  We just use Y&Y because we know and understand the term, but if you want you could just as eaily replace it with Horse & Wagon and you'd have the exact same conversation.

I also think you're missing the point that a discussion on symbols does not have to be based in fact or even in reality, and you certainly don't need knowledge of the film-makers intentions to have fun with it.  Seemingly arbitrary (beyond the aesthetic) set designs, lighting, costumes and accoutrements still had to be selected by someone, and with the degree of care for everything else in this film, why not consider that hat colour was part of that plan, or that a Y&Y (make that Horse & Wagon) relationship between Jack & Ennis was the intention?

The world is far more interesting than any of us give it credit for or could comprehend - this is just one way of exploring it.
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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2006, 03:33:19 am »
Speaking as an American who learned how to speak an syncretic version of Western Oklahoma and Eastern Oklahoma English before I attended public school and lived around small community and rural folk and having lived in the country, rural communities and small towns, where many of the students in the public schools and in college were from the very same kinds of places, I just look at things differently and speak from my own world point of view, too.

I was a full-time public school teacher in Southwestern Kansas in a very small town where most of the students lived out in the country. I was a teacher years later in SW Missouri where many of the students lived outside of the City limits. And the next school term, I was in NE Missouri where the Junior-Senior High School was literally in the country south of a town which had around 2,000 in population.

Besides working and living on farms in Oklahoma, I have also lived on a dairy in Northern California; worked in fruit orchards and vegetable farms in Oregon.

I don't consider myself to be better than anyone else. But, as an art student who studied design and composition and and also as a person who has some experience in the theatrical arts (I was a member of the players group in college and a member of the National Honorary Dramatic Fraternity - one has to be invited to join that after one has done so much work with on-campus productions, on stage and behind the scenes), I don't see why people have to explain why an artist, aka the director, Ang Lee, had to use an Asian philosophical context as a reason why he did things a certain way or why they just came out that way.

BTW, I have directed stage plays and I even designed the scene sets, too. I just created them the way I thought would look the best from the audience POV, composition and design wise, with no thought of philosophy whatsoever.

Offline RouxB

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2006, 03:49:27 am »
BTW, I have directed stage plays and I even designed the scene sets, too. I just created them the way I thought would look the best from the audience POV, composition and design wise, with no thought of philosophy whatsoever.

But Ang Lee is not you ???


 O0

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2006, 03:59:01 am »
But Ang Lee is not you ???


 O0

EXACTLY! And not you, neither!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2006, 09:56:15 am »
TJ, if works of art -- movies, books, paintings -- never contain metaphors and subtexts and layers of meaning beneath the surface, then artists and critics and college professors have been wasting a hell of a lot of time over hundreds of years.

Many movies, probably most movies, can be fully understood just by watching what's on the screen and listening to the dialogue, just like many books don't mean much beyond the obvious words on the page. But clearly, great works of literature go a lot deeper than that. And if you refuse to acknowledge that any meaning lies beneath those superficial elements in Brokeback Mountain, IMO you're missing half the movie.

We don't know exactly what Ang Lee meant by everything -- that's the nature of metaphors and subtexts in art. They're SUPPOSED to be complex and ambiguous, not spell things out. So yeah, we're analyzing and debating and wondering. But it's beyond doubt that there's SOMETHING there, that he hopes we'll look for it and that doing so will enrich our experience.

Incidentally, there was an article on Slate around Oscar time about how costume designers like to make subtle comments on their characters through their choices of clothing colors, styles, etc. The point of the piece, in fact, was that although costume-design Oscars usually go to spectacular period pieces such as Memoirs of a Geisha, the costumers themselves actually aren't fond of those movies because, with all the historical frou-frou, there's no room for those subtle distinctions. Here's the link, if you're interested: http://www.slate.com/id/2137272/




Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2006, 12:01:51 pm »
Hi, and welcome! Yes it makes sense to me! Looking forward to hearing more from you. I like your signature!
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2006, 12:47:17 pm »
OH-MY-GOD.  I think this is HUGE!  And why on Earth did I never notice it before???

To me, throughout the movie, Jack always wearing solid shirts symbolizes his security in his sexuality.  Ennis always wearing light, patterned shirts symbolizes his lack thereof.  If he's wearing a solid shirt in the pie scene and in the Lightning Flat scene, even if it is light in color (and all the more appropriate, really), this CLINCHES that he was ready to accept himself as he was and therefore possibly make a go of having a life with Jack.

HOLY crap.  Now I've gotta watch it again tonight.  DARN you, Katherine!  ;)

WHAO! just when I thought all the observations have been made.  :) Will have to pop the dvd in later on tonight.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline starboardlight

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2006, 01:02:47 pm »
This discussion reminds me of an conversation which I have heard lots of times when a person inquired why someone did something a certain way.

Person one, "Why did you do that?"

Person two, "'Cause."

Person one, "'Cause why?"

Person two, "Just because, no reason. I just did it."

with most other directors, I'd agree with that. but with Ang Lee, I don't. He's known to be a very meticulous director. Actors that have worked with him have said that he's the kind of artist that give thoughts to every detail. For him, "no reason. I just did it." is not the usual mode. In addition, the use of black hat/white hat is too prominent in the film to not have meanings. In the world how many colors of cowboy hats is there? yet in the film the majority of hats are black or white. Visually, it dares us to dig for reasons. If the yin/yang theory doesn't sit with you, then perhaps you can offer another.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2006, 03:10:58 pm »
That is an excellent observation, Barb!
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2006, 03:30:41 pm »
Barb, I've never been so pleased to be cursed! ;)

I LOVE your interpretation. I hope I'm right about when he wears the solid color. I know for sure he does in the pie scene, but I haven't seen the movie in weeks, and my memory of what he's wearing at the Twists is not trustworthy. I went to my old reliable reference source, YouTube, and the site is down. So Barb, you and other DVD-owners will have to check it out and report back!

Well, here is my report after last night's viewing.  He is wearing a patterned shirt underneath a light grey canvas jacket.  But the interesting thing about the patterned shirt is that the stripes are so close together as to seem almost solid.  So it's certainly the most solid shirt he wears in the entire movie.  I like to think this means that he wasn't quite there yet - but almost.  Another thing I noticed about this ensemble is that he seems to have *the exact same* one on in the Lightning Flat scene, as if he contacted Jack's parents (Mrs. Twist looks like she expects him when she comes to the door) immediately after getting off the phone with Lureen, got in his truck, and drove straight there.

And I noticed something in an early scene that I don't remember anyone mentioning before:  Jack says to Ennis in the bar, "My second summer up here - last summer - one lightning storm killed 42 sheep..."  He has worked for Aguirre TWICE before, not just the previous summer.  Yes, that's an assumption on my part - it could have been some other guy the summer before.  But if it is Aguirre, they have quite the history, do they not?
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Offline RouxB

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2006, 08:23:34 pm »
Barb-

He is saying 1963 is his second summer. "(it's my) second summer up here. Last summer...). He is just leaving off the first part of the sentence as they frequently do.

I think that point has been covered in the interviews and making ofs.


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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2006, 10:24:00 pm »
While the Ennis Del Mar character wore clothing in the movie which is even more expensive than what I might spend fof my own clothes and he was supposed to be dirt poor, the wardrobe for him could have been purchased at a local Goodwill store, a Salvation Army thrift shop or similar 2nd hand clothing store.

And, that included the hats, too.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2006, 10:46:26 pm »
Well, here is my report after last night's viewing.  He is wearing a patterned shirt underneath a light grey canvas jacket.  But the interesting thing about the patterned shirt is that the stripes are so close together as to seem almost solid.  So it's certainly the most solid shirt he wears in the entire movie.  I like to think this means that he wasn't quite there yet - but almost.  Another thing I noticed about this ensemble is that he seems to have *the exact same* one on in the Lightning Flat scene, as if he contacted Jack's parents (Mrs. Twist looks like she expects him when she comes to the door) immediately after getting off the phone with Lureen, got in his truck, and drove straight there.

Also, even though it is summer (or late summer? I'm not up on my BBM dates) he wears the lightweight solid gray jacket in three of the last five scenes, not including the one where he gets the postcard nor the one with Alma Jr. -- right? He wears it in the pie, phone booth and Twist ranch scenes. In my understanding, none of those occur on the same day. And one more thing: he's wearing a shirt like Ennis' but different, as you noted above, under a solid-color jacket that is like Jack's but different.

So although I'm disappointed that the shirt is not a skeleton key that unlocks the entire end of the movie, it stlil could mean something ...


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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2006, 11:36:06 pm »
Unlike the deal about the costume movie people in the slate link, no fancy high-priced clothing would even have been needed if the movie's screenplay writers and the director and his crew had ADOPTED more stuff that was in Annie Proulx's original story.

Most of the clothing needed for the role of Ennis could have purchased at a used clothing store. And the clothing for Jack could have been purchased at a chain department store where lower-middle income and lower income people shop.

Heath's character wore what he could afford on his poverty level income. Even the Book Jake's character was rather poor until after Lureen's father died and SHE hired him on giving him a vague managerial title. Jack was a buyer for her company, not a salesman.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2006, 01:11:30 am »
Back to the hats for a moment...

So, I just watched the whole movie twice tonight (someone please help me...).  Once with a friend and once by myself.  And,believe it or not... I noticed a new significant white hat moment.  When Jack is in Mexico and first enters the dark alley, he is immediately preceded in his walk down the alley by a man in a white hat and a white shirt.  You can see him begin to enter the alley in the shot of Jack with the crowded scene behind him... as Jack looks down the alley.  Then there's another shot as the camera travels down the alley (sort of following Jack's gaze/ footsteps) where the white-hatted man is essentially centered in the alley (we see him from behind) and he slips into the darkness at the end of the alley just as Jack's gaze focuses on the prostitute.  It's a bit as if Jack is chasing him or pursuing him.

So, it turns out that Mexico must also really have something for boys like Ennis too. (at least visually *like* Ennis)

I love this movie. :)  (as if there was any doubt)  ::)
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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2006, 02:07:28 am »
I was somewhat shocked to hear the MOVIE Ennis say, "Boys like you," to Jack.

IMO, the only reason that Jack brought up "Mexico" in the first place was he wanted them to meet were it was warmer in the spring, summer, and the fall than it was in the high altitude mountains of Wyoming.

In the book, Ennis only asked Jack if he had been to Mexico. I don't think Annie Proulx was claiming that Ennis believed Jack could be sex with a guy when he wanted it anytime he wanted it in Mexico; I think that he had heard queer guys got murdered in Mexico. And, understanding what kind of homophobic man Ennis's father was, Ennis might have heard that from Daddy Del Mar himself.

All of Ennis's homophobia was rooted into what he saw when he was about 9 years old and his father made him see the beaten with "the tire iron" and mutilated body of Earl, the partner of Rich and the member of the old ranching couple near Sage, Wyoming.

Jack's private life away from Ennis was, IMO, none of Ennis's business since they did not have a covenanted relationship in that Jack would not have sex with any other man.

Quote
"Hell yes, I been. Where's the fuckin problem?" Braced for it all these years and here it came, late and unexpected.

The above quote is from the book. I believe that Jack "lied," claiming that he had been down there; when really he used "Mexico" as a metaphor, so to speak, to admit the fact that he had been having sex with other guys besides Ennis. Jack had plenty of opportunity when he was on the road between Childress, Texas and Lightning Flat, Wyoming and when he was working for the farm and equipment company in a managerial position of sorts (the books' version is different from the movie).

It is just not plausible for me to believe that when Jack was rebuffed by Ennis when he showed up unannounced after Ennis's divorce that Jack would redline it all the way to Juarez, Mexico just to have sex with a male prostitute because he didn't get any from Ennis.

I have encountered "straight" guys who went looking for sex with gay guys after their wives and/or girlfriends would not put out for them when they were horny . . .  but they would not have driven more than 10 miles to do that.

Offline starboardlight

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2006, 10:24:04 am »
Back to the hats for a moment...

So, I just watched the whole movie twice tonight (someone please help me...).  Once with a friend and once by myself.  And,believe it or not... I noticed a new significant white hat moment.  When Jack is in Mexico and first enters the dark alley, he is immediately preceded in his walk down the alley by a man in a white hat and a white shirt.  You can see him begin to enter the alley in the shot of Jack with the crowded scene behind him... as Jack looks down the alley.  Then there's another shot as the camera travels down the alley (sort of following Jack's gaze/ footsteps) where the white-hatted man is essentially centered in the alley (we see him from behind) and he slips into the darkness at the end of the alley just as Jack's gaze focuses on the prostitute.  It's a bit as if Jack is chasing him or pursuing him.

So, it turns out that Mexico must also really have something for boys like Ennis too. (at least visually *like* Ennis)

I love this movie. :)  (as if there was any doubt)  ::)

interesting observation. i also reinforce the idea that he's there not just for sex but because he is still seeking that connection with Ennis.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2006, 11:40:00 am »
Just a little observation, for what it's worth (don't know how well this ties into the discussion already present in this thread):

The last time we see Ennis wearing his large white (Resistol?) cowboy hat, the one we see him wear on the mountain, is in the grocery-store scene in Riverton. And before that, after his sojourn in Brokeback, we see him sport a straw (or straw-like) hat, and a baseball cap in the Timmy/asphalt-laying scene. The straw hat is also what he wears when he goes off with Jack after the reunion, first en route to the motel, and then to the "out in the middle of nowhere" tryst. After that point, save for the flashback scene (the last time, sequentially in the film, that we see the large white hat), we always see Ennis wearing the smaller-styled white (or off-white) hat, which always makes me think of a fishing hat (appropriately enough).

Jack alone seems to retain the same large-style (again, Resistol?) cowboy hat that we first see him wear, though he seems to shift from black to a more neutral tan shade for the color choice (the exceptions, as I recall, are the dance with the Malones, the flashback scene, and Ennis's POV imagining of Jack's supposed murder).

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2006, 12:47:46 pm »
Quote
Also, even though it is summer (or late summer? I'm not up on my BBM dates) he wears the lightweight solid gray jacket in three of the last five scenes, not including the one where he gets the postcard nor the one with Alma Jr. -- right?

He's wearing the light gray jacket in the scene were he gets the postcard, too. And he also wears it in the trailer scene with Alma jr.
He wears it from the pie scene on (directly after the flashback and the one shot of Jack) through the entire rest of the movie: pie scene, receiving the postcard, phone call, Twist home, sticking numbers on the mailbox outside the trailer, Junior arriving, inside the trailer, up to "Jack, I swear".

Do we see Ennis in that light grey jacket before Jack's death? I don't think so, but I'm not sure. Hmmm...
I believe, before Jack's death we see him only in brown jackets, after Jack's death in only in a grey one.

What about the pie scene? Is Jack already dead at this point? Maybe the grey jacket indicates that.
"Ennis didn't know about the accident for months..." (from story). At the pie scene neither Ennis nor the audience know about Jack's death, but maybe the pie scene takes place in one of the months Ennis doesn't know about it, but it already had happened.

Any thoughts, someone?

« Last Edit: May 11, 2006, 12:51:27 pm by Penthesilea »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2006, 01:00:10 pm »
He's wearing the light gray jacket in the scene were he gets the postcard, too. And he also wears it in the trailer scene with Alma jr.
He wears it from the pie scene on (directly after the flashback and the one shot of Jack) through the entire rest of the movie: pie scene, receiving the postcard, phone call, Twist home, sticking numbers on the mailbox outside the trailer, Junior arriving, inside the trailer, up to "Jack, I swear".

Do we see Ennis in that light grey jacket before Jack's death? I don't think so, but I'm not sure. Hmmm...
I believe, before Jack's death we see him only in brown jackets, after Jack's death in only in a grey one.

What about the pie scene? Is Jack already dead at this point? Maybe the grey jacket indicates that.
"Ennis didn't know about the accident for months..." (from story). At the pie scene neither Ennis nor the audience know about Jack's death, but maybe the pie scene takes place in one of the months Ennis doesn't know about it, but it already had happened.

Any thoughts, someone?



I like that theory a lot, Penth. Well, except for the fact that it's sad. I also liked Barb's idea that it indicates Ennis has accepted his sexuality. Either one works perfectly.

I'm about to go watch the movie for the first time in about two months. When I get to the gray-jacket scenes, I will keep an eye out for more clues.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2006, 01:15:16 pm »
What a poetic theory, Penth.  I like it.  It's like all the rest of the color of Ennis' life runs out of him when Jack dies.  He goes from the brown of the earth to the gray of the rock beneath.

I still see it as Ennis going directly from the bus station/diner to the post office to the phone booth all on the same day.  When you watched it again, Katherine, did you get this sense, too?  I can see where he'd go to Lightning Flat on a different day - he'd have to look up the Twists and arrange a visit with them beforehand after all.  But those three other things seem to take place in succession to me in the movie, anyway.
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Offline DecaturTxCowboy

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2006, 03:39:55 pm »
So I was going out on a first date once and couldn't decide on my white straw or black felt hat.  Buddy tells me...If you wear white straw, it sends the message - "F*ck me till the cows come home" and the black felt says, "Are you cowboy enough to bend over my tailgate?"
Take it like a man - steady and strong, not a lot of fuss and carring on.  True to a promise, I can ride in any storm.  So bend over and take it like a man...Too much of a good thing is a good thing.

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2006, 04:21:01 pm »
Welcome to the Forum, DecaturTxCowboy!

I am going to see how you respond to my own posts on BetterMost, Good Buddy!

Folks, while the "DecaturTxCowboy" and I have never met in person, we do have lots of online communication about discussions elsewhere on the internet about BbM.

I do like his on topic sense of humor, too.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2006, 05:22:41 pm »
What a poetic theory, Penth.  I like it.  It's like all the rest of the color of Ennis' life runs out of him when Jack dies.  He goes from the brown of the earth to the gray of the rock beneath.

I still see it as Ennis going directly from the bus station/diner to the post office to the phone booth all on the same day.  When you watched it again, Katherine, did you get this sense, too?  I can see where he'd go to Lightning Flat on a different day - he'd have to look up the Twists and arrange a visit with them beforehand after all.  But those three other things seem to take place in succession to me in the movie, anyway.

Barb, I've always assumed they happened on different days. Either of us could be right, I guess (let's check to see if the shirt under the jacket changes to find out for sure!).

OK, so I just watched the movie for the first time in two months, obsessively keeping an eye on shirts throughout. I have reached the conclusion that you're both right. The gray jacket is about Jack dying, but it's also about what Ennis is feeling. Here's why:

I think the color of the shirts and jackets, their style, and even the number of layers that Ennis and Jack wear almost ALWAYS mean something. Others have commented on some of this stuff elsewhere, particularly in that long-ago color thread -- that came early in my Brokeback career and it was too much detail for me to absorb at that point, so I only skimmed it. Hope this isn't too repetitive.

Now up on Brokeback, Ennis usually wears a tan coat when he's pulling away from Jack somehow -- the day they meet, when he's shy, the day after the first tent scene, when he's freaked out. He usually wears just a shirt when he's moving toward Jack -- working together to set up camp, shooting the elk. Usually the shirt is Ennis' color, tan. There are some exceptions (and a few times I forgot to notice), but that's the usual pattern. In the first tent scene, Ennis is wearing the tan jacket, but this is a transition moment for Ennis. Jack is ready to get closer to Ennis, so he takes HIS jacket off. In TS2, they've both moved another step toward each other: Ennis in just a shirt, and Jack in no shirt at all, still a step ahead of Ennis. Neither is wearing a shirt in the happy tussle -- they're equally happily into each other. Ennis and Jack are both wearing just a shirt in the angry tussle, obviously, but by the time they get back to town ther're both in jackets, separated.

During their four years apart, Ennis wears blue -- denim jacket or print shirt -- in just about every scene; a bright blue print shirt, for example, when he's spreading tar and thinking about Jack (I remember someone pointing out his blue cap in the sledding scene). Jack wears blue, too. Again, exceptions, such as Ennis in the bedroom with Alma -- but then SHE'S wearing a light blue nightgown, as if a pale substitute for Jack.

For the reunion, Ennis wears his nice blue-striped shirt. Jack is wearing a jacket -- Ennis is actually a step ahead of Jack, for a change. In the motel, no shirts for either, they're totally together. When Ennis packs for camping, he throws in all blue-plaid shirts. When they first get to the campsite: no clothes at all! Can't get much more together than that! But in the "you know it could be like this always" scene, Ennis is back in the tan jacket, pulling away. (As others have noted, in the Earl flashback, nine-year-old Ennis is wearing the famous plaid-and-denim pairing).

The pattern continues most of the time until the divorce. Ennis wears a denim jacket when away from Jack but presumably thinking about him, such as when throwing hay off the truck. Jack wears a purple shirt when he's looking for his blue parka and talking to Lureen (others have pointed out that red is Lureen's color, and that this shirt indicates a Jack/Lureen mix. Sometimes Alma wears a dull red, too, such as when she spots Ennis and Jack in the stairwell, and at Thanksgiving dinner). Both Jack and Ennis wear beige down jackets at some point; I have no idea what that means.

Then the post-divorce scene. Ennis wears that really heavy tan corduroy jacket -- a thick layer between them. Jack is wearing (what? black leather jacket?). The big news here is that FROM THIS POINT ON, Jack almost always wears gray or black. As if Jack metaphorically died at that point (a la Jake's comment).

Ennis wears blue when he's alone or with Cassie (missing Jack) and tan when he's with Jack (pulling away). He's confused: always inclined to movel in the opposite direction. (Cassie, incidentally, wears a blue denim jacket on their date with Alma Jr.) At the lake scene, Jack is wearing a tan parka (indicating he still has a connection with Ennis? note the lining is even darker brown) over a muddy-grayish-blue shirt (death). Ennis is in the heavy tan jacket, STILL pulling away. In the dozy embrace, both are wearing heavy jackets. Your guess is as good as mine: maybe a harbinger of their lifelong separation?

Then the pie/Cassie scene. As we've noted, FROM THIS POINT ON, Ennis never wears tan again. Like Jack earlier, he now always always always wears gray, the jacket buttoned almost all the way up over a light shirt. This is why I agree with Penthesilea that Jack literally died around this time and, though still unaware of it, Ennis metaphorically mourns with his clothing.

In the last scene with Alma Jr., Ennis is wearing the gray jacket over a light DENIM shirt. Mourning, but keeping Jack close to his heart.

And when he opens his closet shrine, in addition to the famous shirts there's a blue-plaid shirt hanging from closet pole (and a red-plaid shirt -- not sure why; because both wives sometimes wear red, maybe this indicates Ennis has come to think of himself and Jack as life partners? I can't imagine Ennis actually wearing the red plaid).

What do you think? I may be reaching a bit for some of these, I know. But I'm sure there's something there.

UPDATE: I just copied most of this post onto the color coordination thread over at CT. It seemed very on-topic there, and a bit OT here.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2006, 05:30:08 pm by latjoreme »

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2006, 06:26:10 pm »
Wow, Katherine.  [Ellemeno sings, "Did you ever know that you're my hero?"]  That's fantastic.  Thank you so much.

Offline twistedude

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2006, 09:27:25 pm »
Having just finished a story whidh ends with the beginning of BBM (hands off, please!), I put the first 5 minutes under a microscope...and this least fashion-conscious person discovered that Ennis, when we first see him, is a symphony in brown: his hair, his eyes, his boots, his bag, his canvas jacket (this later appears quite light, but in front of Aguirre's, it's distrinctly light brown), belt, and the narrow braid around the base of the crown of his hat--whcih appears off-white in this scene, though sometimes white (as when he watches Jack ride away from camp after having so much trouble getting his horse pointed in the right diredction). His jeans are of course blue, and his shirt is white withl a ight blue pattern. In my story, his appearance registers with Jack as "a beautiful Brown Man--not his skin; everything else." 

It's amazing, with Ennis's apparent imperviousness to cold--an almst unbroiken series of canvas jackets, with one foray into corderoy--he should nearly freeze to death the night of the first tent scene. Poor guy...

As for the "boys like you," Proulx has the thought in Ennis's mind "Mexico was theplace, he had heard"...but he doesn't express it so crudely. Jack's brave and solid response is just one more reason to love Jack...

I have to go to work, just like I did four hours ago and didn't...or the Asain Art Museuim is going to dashboard me...
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2006, 12:25:57 am »
Thanks, Elle! And Julie, about the cold, you're right -- their choice of shirts vs. jackets often seem unrelated to the weather. For instance, the night of TS2, when it's presumably still cold, Ennis wears no jacket because he is taking that step toward Jack.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2006, 05:13:26 am »
latjoreme:

wow, so many good thoughts in one post. You really watched very intensly yesterday, didn't you?

Ennis wearing brown when with Jack, but wearing blue (Jack's colour) when apart from him - that's a good obversation. I had noticed that Ennis wears blue, often too, but didn't recognise that he (almost?) only wears it when apart fom Jack.
Makes perfect sense.


Barb and latj:

For the time-line of the last scenes from pie scene on:
Quote
Barb, I've always assumed they happened on different days. Either of us could be right, I guess (let's check to see if the shirt under the jacket changes to find out for sure!).

This is quite ot here. So I will start a new thread: Timeline for the last cenes.

Edit: It's here: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1371.0


« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 05:32:20 am by Penthesilea »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2006, 09:15:47 am »
You really watched very intensly yesterday, didn't you?

Thanks, Penth. Tell you what, when you go two months without seeing it, but spend about five hours a day of those two months discussing it here and about 18 hours a day thinking about it, when you finally do see it you watch pretty intensely.

Actually, though, I'm kind of surprised that, given that we've found so much meaning in coffee pots and Elk signs and snow and moons and pickup trucks, and given what a huge powerful symbol TWO of the shirts are, I never thought to take a closer look at ALL of them before. I just kept thinking, Hmmm! Ennis looks cute in that gray shirt; wonder why he never wore that earlier? It was Barb who pointed out there might be more to it than a random outfit choice.



Offline ednbarby

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2006, 09:35:41 am »
All I can do is echo Clarissa's sentiments and say Wow, Katherine.  And thank you.  I think you're right on in every one of your observations.  The only one I can add is this:

When Jack returns to Aguirre's trailer the next summer looking for Ennis, he is wearing four layers - a white T-shirt, a *plaid* shirt (though a nearly solid one) - the only one he wears in the entire movie, a *red* zip-up sweater or sweatshirt zipped up about halfway, and a heavy brown, I believe, coat.  I've always thought of this as symbolizing his vulnerability to Aguirre - he knows deep down that he probably saw them - maybe doesn't think of it consciously until he says so, but metaphorically layers himself for protection and wears the one plaid shirt in the whole thing because it's the one time he feels uncomfortable about his own sexuality.

Have I mentioned yet today how much I love this movie?
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Offline Rayn

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2006, 12:20:44 pm »
I must say, with all the good natured humor I can muster, I never saw anything but boots, jeans, shirts, vests, jackets and hats in all the clothes people wore in the movie.  Just clothes is all I saw. 

I paid closer attention to when Jack or Ennis had no clothes on than to what color hat either of them wore, but I will admit, Lureen looked hot in her red cowgirl hat and she was HOT, but I didn't come away thinkin' her red hat symbolized her fiery love for Jack.  I guess I'm just not that into clothes or somethin'...   (Smirk)

Ok, I'm teasin' you all now, come on...     ;D
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2006, 01:34:41 pm »
He's wearing the light gray jacket in the scene were he gets the postcard, too. And he also wears it in the trailer scene with Alma jr.
He wears it from the pie scene on (directly after the flashback and the one shot of Jack) through the entire rest of the movie: pie scene, receiving the postcard, phone call, Twist home, sticking numbers on the mailbox outside the trailer, Junior arriving, inside the trailer, up to "Jack, I swear".

Do we see Ennis in that light grey jacket before Jack's death? I don't think so, but I'm not sure. Hmmm...
I believe, before Jack's death we see him only in brown jackets, after Jack's death in only in a grey one.

What about the pie scene? Is Jack already dead at this point? Maybe the grey jacket indicates that.
"Ennis didn't know about the accident for months..." (from story). At the pie scene neither Ennis nor the audience know about Jack's death, but maybe the pie scene takes place in one of the months Ennis doesn't know about it, but it already had happened.

Any thoughts, someone?



but he does wear the tan jacket on this trip to Lightning Flat, right? I'll have to watch the dvd again, but I'm sure that it was tan, when he came out of the house with the paper bag, mirroring what he wore at the beginning of the movie.
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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2006, 02:45:02 pm »
Quote
but he does wear the tan jacket on this trip to Lightning Flat, right? I'll have to watch the dvd again, but I'm sure that it was tan, when he came out of the house with the paper bag, mirroring what he wore at the beginning of the movie.

No, I'm sorry, Star. He wears the grey jacket at Lighnting Flat, not the tan one. He wears always the grey jacket from the pie scene on for the entire rest of the movie.

Click to enlarge and look:



« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 02:49:05 pm by Penthesilea »

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2006, 06:36:12 pm »
Unless a person involved with the movie has put in writing that a particular color coordination agenda, or the "Black Hats, White Hats" thing, was actually used with the movie, all we can do is discuss our own theories about it.

If I still lived in North Hollywood, CA, I might ask someone whom I know would be in show business to find out for me. I did have actor friends in LA and even knew some guys who were executives in Movie Studios.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2006, 09:53:07 pm »
Wow, Katherine!  I'm certainly glad you watched the movie again!  Great observation of details.  I love the idea that the jacket-shirt-no shirt transitions are significant in showing the boys getting closer, more comfortable and intimate - or conversely pulling away.  And, I do also like the idea of Ennis going back and forth in his emotional confusion re: both Jack and the women in his life.  I've never thought to look at the other clothes in Ennis's final closet.  But, you're right.  They must be important.  I say this because the clothes in Jack's Lightning Flat closet all seem to be important (in addition to the main shirts).  The boots (even in Proulx) are supposed to be boots that draw Ennis in and he thinks he recognizes them.  The furry/wool collar on one of Jack's jackets must remind Ennis of the flashback caress/ Jack's Brokeback jacket (although it's a different jacket hanging there... are the colors blue and red?  I can't quite recall).  And, the most important item in Jack's closet is the shirt or jacket that keeps swinging once Ennis has fondled it.  When we see Ennis kneeling down that jacket or shirt (I can't tell which) seems to be pushing or urging Ennis on to look in the secret nook.  A subtle suggestion of Jack's ghost perhaps...

More ideas about colors, hats, etc.:
I know this has been discussed either on a board long ago and far, far way or maybe even here (sorry, I haven't re-read this whole thread tonight) that Jack's sudden transition into purples and muted red colors after the post-divorce fiasco may have something to do with the metaphor of a bruise.  I know it's been discussed that these are the colors of blood (both wet and dry) and indicate not only his somewhat brokenheart from this point on, but also his hidden secret about the blood soaked shirts in his closet.  Kind of a lovely thought actually.

Also, it seems important that Jack reverts to a black cowboy hat in the argument scene.  It's a rather large, maybe *Texas* size hat actually.  I think no matter how many shifts in hat color he went with in the middle of the movie, we and certainly Ennis think of him as a black-hatted cowboy (black sheep).

I've always wondered why Ennis stops wearing cowboy hats.  Ang Lee has said he was expecting Ennis to carry the weight of the "western" genre and mood (which I think he does do).  But, given this I think it's very odd that he stops wearing cowboy hats... in a gradual way as has been pointed out.  I don't know what to make of this.  And, I've never liked his smaller hats for some reason.

It's probably been said too many times.  But, the colors of brown (predominantly for Ennis) and blue for Jack correspond with their nature symbols (earth and air/water).  I quite love this too.

Oh my, there's a lot to think about in this thread!
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline starboardlight

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2006, 10:16:04 pm »
I know this has been discussed either on a board long ago and far, far way or maybe even here (sorry, I haven't re-read this whole thread tonight) that Jack's sudden transition into purples and muted red colors after the post-divorce fiasco may have something to do with the metaphor of a bruise.  I know it's been discussed that these are the colors of blood (both wet and dry) and indicate not only his somewhat brokenheart from this point on, but also his hidden secret about the blood soaked shirts in his closet.  Kind of a lovely thought actually.

actually the blood color showed up even earlier than that. we first see it on Jack when he goes back to Aguirre's trailer. We see it on him, even as he shows up for the reunion. Although both times, they weren't shirts. The first was a sweater, and the second was a vest. Still they did really stand out as color shifts.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2006, 10:29:09 pm »
Good point starlightboard.  Maybe the bruise colors have their root in Jack's actual bruise...  The big bruise from Ennis's punch before their parting on Brokeback.  I don't think it matters what kind of clothing the bruise color is on... it just becomes associated with Jack generally.  The dark blue of the parka is also a sort of bruise color when you think about it.  So, it relates to both of his metaphors... bruised/ love (if blue is thought of as the color of love in the movie).

These colors (black, blue, purple, muted red, etc.) are associated with Jack like the bright red and clear white start out as Lureen's colors.  Many people  have noted that her reds and whites become more muted and subtle as time passes and then finally in the phone-call scene her shirt is black and white (with red on her fingers). She's like a fire that has been reduced to ashes and smoldering cinders.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #57 on: May 22, 2006, 07:26:29 pm »
OK, so a conversation in another thread got me thinking about black and white hats again.  So, I thought I'd come here and post on-topic.  Last night I noticed a new, great black-hat moment in the background behind Ennis.  Forgive me if this was mentioned here somewhere before (I haven't re-read this thread all the way through tonight).  But, in the scene where he first meets Cassie and they're sitting in chairs opposite one another to introduce themselves (and Cassie tries to get a foot rub)... there's a guy in a black hat smack in between them but in the background of the bar.  There are a number of black-hatted guys in the bar in that scene.  More visualization of what's on Ennis mind.
 :D
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #58 on: May 31, 2006, 09:59:58 pm »
In the Double Meanings thread there's a discussion going on about the significance of the bus station scene with Ennis and Cassie.  As we've all discussed there's quite a lot of interesting black hat/ white hat action going on in the background of this scene.  Most noticeably with the two guys (one in a black hat and one in a white hat) who buy bus tickets together in the background and leave.  But, at this point I'd like to discuss another black hatted figure that appears briefly towards the beginning of this scene.  Through the window we see a figure in a black jacket and a black hat walk quickly from left to right passed the bus station.  This figure does not seem to enter the bus station, only walks by.  I've been seeing that figure as more and more of an ominous sign that Jack really has already died by this point in the movie.  That figure seems like a little sign that "Jack has left the movie..." so to speak.  That black hatted figure reminds me of the white hatted figure that walks behind Ennis as he has his last conversation with Jack next to Jack's truck at the end of the Brokeback summer.  That white hatted figure has always seemed like a sign that Ennis is trying to find some way to disconnect with Jack and return to his conventional plans.  Of course we all know that this is very much against what his heart is telling him (hence the dry heaves and the crying).
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2006, 11:03:25 pm »
Thanks for reinvigorating this thread, Amanda, because there's something I've been thinking about and wanted to mention. Unfortunately, it's not about hats, though.

Back to clothes: in the swingset scene, Ennis is wearing a tan vest with a red lining -- he's back with Alma, but keeping his love (symbolized by the red) hidden and close under his regular tan. And if I'm not mistaken, Jack is wearing a vest like that in the reunion kiss scene. Not sure -- I am going to try to watch it one more time tomorrow, so I'll check.

tiawahcowboy

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #60 on: June 01, 2006, 09:33:32 am »
IMO, this should have been a light vs. dark in regard to hat colors in the movie.

Ennis does not wear white hats; in fact, he wears them in shades of grey and brown.

Jack is a black-hat man and it might be, like a lot of cowboys, he just prefers black hats. I have a friend who likes cowboy hats and black is the only color he will buy or want people to buy for him. Oh, he wears baseball style caps of all different colors, especially if they identify him as a macho kind of guy.

In the book, Jack only works there kinds of jobs, ranch type, sheep herder, and rodeo cowboy before his father-in-law dies and he becomes an employee of Lureen in her farm machinery company and with a vague managerial title he becomes a buyer of her outfit.

Ennis never wears a hat for dress-up occasions in the movie. His cowboy hats he wears are "multi-purpose/multi-task" hats; he wears the same kinds while working, too.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #61 on: June 01, 2006, 11:18:01 am »
Actually, my referring to black hats and white hats when starting this thread was meant to be a nod to the idea of Jack and Ennis being the yin and the yang.  I realize Ennis' hats aren't truly white.  :)

I like the idea Amanda touched on a few posts back that made me think of that conversation we had earlier about the guys at the pool table in the Jimbo scene, and why some are in black hats and some are in light hats - that maybe the black hats aren't so much fixers vs. standers as black sheep - special and singular in some way.  I like it.  I like it a lot.
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tiawahcowboy

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #62 on: June 01, 2006, 11:46:59 am »
Actually, my referring to black hats and white hats when starting this thread was meant to be a nod to the idea of Jack and Ennis being the yin and the yang.  I realize Ennis' hats aren't truly white.  :)

I like the idea Amanda touched on a few posts back that made me think of that conversation we had earlier about the guys at the pool table in the Jimbo scene, and why some are in black hats and some are in light hats - that maybe the black hats aren't so much fixers vs. standers as black sheep - special and singular in some way.  I like it.  I like it a lot.

Since the original source of the "yin and yang" is from an Oriental religion which people like me chose not to observe which conflicts with my own spirituality, I would much rather not mess with that discussion. That's the same reason I do not mess with horoscopes and/or astrology charts.

The Jimbo scene was a figment of Larny McMurtry's and/or Diana Ossana's imagination. In no place in Annie Proulx's short story does Jack talk to a rodeo clown. Besides, the actor who played "Jimbo" was not even a big as the man who was the "clown," actually called a "bullfighter" in real rodeos.

Professional Bull Riders, Inc. has three men who dress up like clowns in the rodeo arena. Two of them are bullfighters and their purpose is to insure both the safety of the rider AND the bull in each event. The third man is the barrell man and he is sort of a back-up for the bullfighters. He has to have a great sense of humor and he tells jokes between rounds and even pokes good-natured fun at the announcer and people in the audience. Yes, he has to be a stand-up comedian and he often stands up on the barrell he uses during the rodeo, too.

One can discuss contrasting themes in a book or in a movie, or even still in real life, and not even mention religion related terminology at all.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2006, 09:55:41 pm »
Back to clothes: in the swingset scene, Ennis is wearing a tan vest with a red lining -- he's back with Alma, but keeping his love (symbolized by the red) hidden and close under his regular tan. And if I'm not mistaken, Jack is wearing a vest like that in the reunion kiss scene. Not sure -- I am going to try to watch it one more time tomorrow, so I'll check.

Yup, Jack is definitely wearing a tan vest during the reunion kiss.  During the initial hug Ennis is really grabbing onto it... sort of clinging to it.  Well, this is definitely an interesting observation Katherine.  I don't remember what color lining Jack's vest had, but he's clearly wearing a red shirt.  So, it's a red color underneath the tan vest... mirroring Ennis's tan vest with the red lining.  So maybe this is the unfolding of the "ink-blot" pattern of the movie's structure that's been mentioned in threads here and there.  This scene mirrors a scene that's relatively close in timing/ proxiimity (i.e. the reunion scene) since they're both quite near the center of the movie/ ink-blot.  So the opening shot of the movie with the semi-truck seen in the distance against the dark mountains mirrors Ennis's truck going the opposite direction but against similar mountains towards the very end of the movie.  Since the one shot is at the very beginning, its mirroring shot would have to be far away in terms of timing and proximity.  I think the whole ink-blot idea is very interesting (though hard to describe!) and it, like the black and white hats, seems to have a lot to do with the yin and yang idea.

Quote
that conversation we had earlier about the guys at the pool table in the Jimbo scene, and why some are in black hats and some are in light hats - that maybe the black hats aren't so much fixers vs. standers as black sheep - special and singular in some way.  I like it.  I like it a lot.

Barb, the more I watch the Jimbo scene the more interesting the background details become.  I get so distracted by some of the interactions in the background that I sort of tune Jack and Jimbo out a bit (which is not such a good thing maybe...).  My favorite background detail in that scene lately is the table that Jack walks by once he finally decides to get out of there.  There's a table (situated more or less right behind where Jack and Jimbo had been sitting at the bar) and there is a couple of guys (of course one with a black hat and one with a white hat) calmly drinking together.  As Jack leaves they both move their arms at the same time to put their drinks down.    Their contentedness at being together reminds me of the two guys leaving together from the bus station during the Cassie and pie scene.  I guess, all reminders of what could have been for Jack and Ennis...
 :-\ :(
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #64 on: June 02, 2006, 12:48:30 am »
  So maybe this is the unfolding of the "ink-blot" pattern of the movie's structure that's been mentioned in threads here and there.  This scene mirrors a scene that's relatively close in timing/ proxiimity (i.e. the reunion scene) since they're both quite near the center of the movie/ ink-blot.

When I first encountered the inkblot idea the poster said he had gone through the whole movie scene by scene, and found that scenes at the beginning very closely mirrored scenes at the end (trailer/trailer), then the next scenes mirrored the second-to-last scenes and so on. That's interesting, and must be at least partly true, but I think the mirroring is actually messier than that, more like a web than an inkblot.

For instance, lately I've noticed that the scene where Ennis tells the story of Earl and Rich looks a lot like the scene by the campfire after the bear encounter. Both times Ennis has had a traumatic experience. Both times Jack, sitting on Ennis' right, moves closer and comforts Ennis by gently touching his face. Ennis rejects him the first time but not the second. What does this mean? I guess that the bear, like Earl and Rich, stands for the dangers that lie ahead for them as a couple. (The bear is in or by the river, which we've talked about as symbolizing their relationshp, so that underscores the idea.) Also, the contrast between the scenes shows how much has changed, from Ennis irritatedly snatching the wet cloth away to submitting to, and apparently feeling soothed by, Jack's affection.

Sorry, this has nothing to do with hats. I'm not really sure where it belongs. These days the threads are getting so complex and intensive that I'm starting to feel like when you have something to say you just have to jump in where you can. But if I find a better place for it, I'll move or copy.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2006, 02:59:40 pm »
My question is... how did this thread sink all the way to page 5?
 :o :D
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2006, 10:25:31 am »
Wow, interesting details, Barbara. And your interpretations all make perfect sense.

Will the symbolism never end?!

This may have been mentioned before (maybe even by me, for all I know!), but I love the pattern of pre-makeout-session hat removal and how it reflects the participants' attitude about the procedings.

In TS2, as Ennis heads into the tent he takes off his own hat -- he is ready and willing to be with Jack. Yet he continues holding onto it -- still a bit nervous and hesitant. Jack gently takes Ennis' hat and sets it aside, encouragingly -- "s'alright."

In the "happy tussle," Ennis teasingly knocks off Jack's hat -- he has reached the level of comfort with their sex life where initiation can be mutual.

When Jack and Lureen are in the back seat of Daddy's car, Lureen takes off Jack's hat. She's leading the way.

In the reunion scene, Ennis appears hatless, already receptive, and as he pushes Jack to the stairwell he passionately knocks off Jack's hat.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2006, 12:59:56 pm by latjoreme »

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2006, 10:52:46 am »
LOVE it, Barbara and Katherine.  All excellent observations.  The twist gone from the trim - wow - that's exquisite.  And I think you're right, Barbara - it's gone in that last scene to symolize that Jack's strength and will to hold on to Ennis is gone - basically, that all hope and in essence his life force is gone.  His eyes clearly belie that when the flashback ends and he stands there watching him drive away for the last time - all the life is drained out.  But I never noticed the trim on his hats.  Thanks for that.

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Offline 2robots4u

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #68 on: August 04, 2006, 02:03:01 pm »
I noticed the variations of hat colors from the start, but I didn't see any significance.  Just that they wore what goes good with their clothes and boots.  Even cowboys have to be coordinated...that means hat, belt, boots must match.  It also means they wore what they had if they couldn't afford a big wardrobe of hats for every "outfit".  That fit Ennis, but Jack, well, he could afford it, and we see several different styles and colors.  Symbolism at work here?  Perhaps.  Every movie can be scrutinized for hidden meanings (the eating scene in Tom Jones comes to mind); sexual inuendos are probably the most obvious, but do we see that sort of thing in BBM?  So at this point, I take that stand that the hats don't mean anything more than what you see.

And by the way, the only hat I was interested in (and it's really not the hat, but what's under it that got my interest)  was on the head of the guy dancing with the dark haired lady in the blue dress doing the twrills in the dance scene that opens the benefit story.  There's a great shot of just his face framed between a couple in the foreground, over the right shoulder of Jack.  I noticed this guy immediately and replay this scene over and over and over, etc.  Just thought you might want to know. (Don't know how to insert the "wink face" here, so please visually insert it for me)...Doug


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2006, 02:21:10 pm »
Every movie can be scrutinized for hidden meanings ...  but do we see that sort of thing in BBM?

Doug, there are tons of amazing threads on this board discussing the hidden meanings of all kinds of things in the movie: hats, rotary fans, elk, sheep, bear, binoculars, clothing, colors, snow, water, coffee pots, buckets, laundry, spitting, windows ... and this is an abbreviated list. As far as I know, no movie has ever been as packed with symbolism and metaphors as BBM. The idea that the symbolism is that detailed might sound implausible at first, and certainly some of the symbols that people suggest are subject to debate. But after studying the patterns and all of the significant and fitting ways these items appear in the movie, many (probably even most) people agree that the majority of them make perfect sense.

If you want help finding some of the threads, let me know.

(As for inserting the wink face, just place the cursor where you want it to appear, then click on the wink face above. Like this  ;) -- on your reply it will just be a semicolon and a parenthese, but in the posted version there'll be a face.)

Offline 2robots4u

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #70 on: August 04, 2006, 05:48:44 pm »
That's what I initially did, but when I saw just the punctuations marks I didn't think it took, so I deleted it.  Boy, am I learning all kinds of new things..Thanks..Doug :)
 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2006, 05:50:20 pm by [email protected] »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2006, 05:50:34 pm »
Funny; I saw Chris' explanation of how to do quotes, and I had given an explanation of how to do quotes just this morning -- to someone else! It's a day for tutorials, I guess. Let me know if you have any other questions (though I'm hardly the best person to ask).

Offline 2robots4u

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2006, 05:52:05 pm »
Between the two of you, I should get it figured out...soon or later..Doug
l

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2006, 10:20:15 pm »
there are tons of amazing threads on this board discussing the hidden meanings of all kinds of things in the movie: hats, rotary fans, elk, sheep, bear, binoculars, clothing, colors, snow, water, coffee pots, buckets, laundry, spitting, windows ...

Hey there Bud,

Yup, I love that this movie elevates absolutely mundane things, as demonstrated by your list, to the level of poetry and deep meaning. 

And, I also love this new observation about the types of hats... and the trim.  I've always noticed the trim but never thought to ponder possible meanings... silly me.  Well, actually, I have always wondered about the decision to remove the detail of the eagle feather from Jack's hat.  It's mentioned twice in the story.  I wonder if it would just be a distraction in his costume.  I know some posters have argued that movie viewers might strongly object to the notion or visual suggestion that Jack might have shot an eagle during his first solo summer on Brokeback.  But, still he could have just found the feather. ::)  I would have liked to see it there as a further metaphoric link between Jack and the wind/ air. The "twist" aspect of Jack's hat and the rigidity of Ennis's hat (fireworks scene, etc.) are amazing things to notice!  About the removal of hats as foreplay/ sexual innuendo...  I like that in the happy tussle, not only does Ennis playfully knock Jack's hat off, but once they're on the ground together Jack reaches up and takes Ennis's hat off too (he sort of uses it to cover their faces as they seem to kiss).  I think this even heightens the idea that they've reached a mutual level of comfort in their romps at this point.

Ennis's hats are interesting because he gravitates away from wearing outright cowboy hats.  Jack's hats change color and style, but they remain clearly recognizable cowboy hats.  I know lots of people don't like Jack's mustache (and I agree with this thoroughly), but Ennis's later hat is almost the same thing for me.  That hat that really does look more like a fisherman's hat has always bothered me.  I'm sure it's meant to help make him look older (and it works) but it bothers me that it isn't so classically "cowboy" in appearance.  It's funny because Ennis is the one that maintains an identity as a cowboy through his work over the years more than Jack, yet in a way Jack seems to cling to the image.  He doesn't give up on his rodeo belts and by the last argument scene he's graduated to a Texas-sized black cowboy hat.

ps.  I love that this thread has gotten a jolt of new life!  It's a great old thread.
 :D
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #74 on: August 05, 2006, 12:49:53 am »
Fernly once pointed out something I never noticed before: Lureen rejects two men in white hats--and goes for Jack-in-black instead.

The bartender here has a white hat too.  I've always thought of these guys in white here as peripheral temptations for Jack... the constant reminder of Ennis and also the real objects of Jack's interest in the bar anyway (even with Lureen there flirting with him).  It's sort of a cruel situation to see Lureen casually rejecting white-hatted-guy after white-hatted-guy like it's nothing.  It doesn't take much to realize how excited Jack would be if a cute guy in a white hat would approach him and flirt with him (even if it couldn't be Ennis, the ideal, here in this bar).  In a way, this little moment continues to illustrate the frustrations of being gay, single and looking to meet someone in Jack's environment (in a different way from the Jimbo scene).
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #75 on: August 05, 2006, 01:38:29 am »
I like that in the happy tussle, not only does Ennis playfully knock Jack's hat off, but once they're on the ground together Jack reaches up and takes Ennis's hat off too (he sort of uses it to cover their faces as they seem to kiss).  I think this even heightens the idea that they've reached a mutual level of comfort in their romps at this point.

Hey there to you, Friend!  :) While we're on the subject, I've always thought it interesting that Jack DOES use the hat as if to cover their faces when they seem to kiss. They're all alone in the wilderness -- why bother to be demure? It's as if he thinks there might be someone watching ... !

 :o :o :o

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #76 on: August 05, 2006, 02:41:43 am »
I've always wondered that about Jack's gesture with Ennis's hat too.  I don't know.


I have another hat question... What should we make of the fact that during the confusing tussle (prior to the punch) Jack is able to keep his hat on while Ennis loses his hat?  When Jack tries to wipe Ennis's bloody nose he still has his hat on, while Ennis is hatless.  I'm honestly forgetting at the moment... does Jack lose his hat too after the punch?  In any case, there's a lot of complex hat action in this scene.
 ::)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2006, 02:45:53 am by atz75 »
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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #77 on: October 29, 2006, 08:52:46 am »
I've always wondered that about Jack's gesture with Ennis's hat too.  I don't know.

I don't think Jack did it deliberately to hide. They were just playing/ horsing around.
But that danged Ang Lee sure did it deliberately to *not* let us see. Restaraint - never enough of our boys, never enough...

Quote
I have another hat question... What should we make of the fact that during the confusing tussle (prior to the punch) Jack is able to keep his hat on while Ennis loses his hat?  When Jack tries to wipe Ennis's bloody nose he still has his hat on, while Ennis is hatless.  I'm honestly forgetting at the moment... does Jack lose his hat too after the punch?  In any case, there's a lot of complex hat action in this scene.
 ::)

Jack loses his hat when going down after the punch.

There's also a continue mistake in that scene. When their hussling gets angry and Jack is on top, he shoves Ennis into the ground and Ennis's hat lays under him and gets flattened (aside: like the harmonica).
But when Ennis grabs his hat after the punch, it is in perfect shape again.


Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #78 on: October 29, 2006, 04:40:34 pm »
Wow!  Thanks for reviving this classic Open Forum thread! 
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Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #79 on: October 29, 2006, 06:53:15 pm »
The black hats symbolised jack's openness to his gay side, the tan hat symbolised Ennis' closed off sexuality, the straw white hat--Jimbo, and JT in the tractor with Bobby--'str8' characters/characteristics.

The black hats around jack symbolised his openness to sex. the lack of black hats around Ennis symbolised he was a one hat sorta ..... ::)  hat.

So far as i know the cool-dude-rodeo straw hat ennis wore with Cassie and at the fireworks display is not categorised. Any tries?
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Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #80 on: October 29, 2006, 06:56:57 pm »
By the way, hats are used symbolically throughout the film, and evenat least once  in the book.
When Aguirre watches them, they are in the middle of nowhere yet they HIDE THEIR LOVE FROM THE WORLD BEHIND A HAT.

There is a LOT of that in BBM
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #81 on: November 27, 2006, 11:08:22 pm »
 :o :o :o

How did this one fall so far down the list!!!??
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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #82 on: December 08, 2006, 05:50:09 pm »
On request of Amada, I post this pic here. Not for Alma jr. but for the hats in the background.

To be honest, I don't see a pair of men in cowboy hats here. I see a man with cowboy hat sitting at a table with a woman, one guy stand behind him, playing at a gambling machine, and possibly the reflection of a guy with a lighter cowboy hat in the pane of the gambling machine right of the second guy.

Amanda, please tell us were in this pic you see a pair of cowboys.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #83 on: December 09, 2006, 08:18:49 pm »
Heya,

Well, I should have been more specific in that other thread.  I did mean the guy sitting at the table with the woman... this guy is directly overlapped with the guy standing up at the gambling machine.  You're right, they're not really a "couple", but they are paired visually.  It just seems to be a particularly interesting visual detail (especially because they are overlapped) given the context of the situation and what Alma Jr. may (or may not) be thinking or realizing.

 :-\


It's also something I'd never noticed before you posted this picture.
 :)
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #84 on: January 16, 2007, 12:51:37 am »
I'm bumping this one for marlb42 and anyone else here new to Open Forum.  This thread is just so amazing and can really change the way the film is understood (I think).
 :)
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #85 on: January 16, 2007, 01:35:40 pm »
Glad you bumped it, Amanda.

'Cause a new twist (ha ha) has been running through my mind.

Why do you all think it is that Jack's hats get lighter from the Reunion Scene on - they go from black (the summer up on Brokeback and upon his return the following summer, looking for Ennis) to medium brown.  I still am kinda partial to my black sheep/white sheep analogy, and if that applies, perhaps the lighter shade means that by marrying money and having a son and a successful (at least on the surface) career, he's not quite the rebel he once was.

On the other hand, if you apply brokebackdev's theory that the black hats symbolize Jack's security within his own sexuality, perhaps the lighter shade means that his marrying and having a son and playing the role of being straight is obscuring his true nature/feelings for Ennis - at least on the surface.

What do you think?

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #86 on: January 16, 2007, 02:25:48 pm »
Why do you all think it is that Jack's hats get lighter from the Reunion Scene on - they go from black (the summer up on Brokeback and upon his return the following summer, looking for Ennis) to medium brown.  I still am kinda partial to my black sheep/white sheep analogy, and if that applies, perhaps the lighter shade means that by marrying money and having a son and a successful (at least on the surface) career, he's not quite the rebel he once was.

On the other hand, if you apply brokebackdev's theory that the black hats symbolize Jack's security within his own sexuality, perhaps the lighter shade means that his marrying and having a son and playing the role of being straight is obscuring his true nature/feelings for Ennis - at least on the surface.

Those are both really interesting theories, Barb! To tell the truth, I'd never noticed the fading hat phenomenon. But now that you've pointed it out, either of these makes sense to me. Another possibility is that his hats are the equivalent of Alma's hair -- they represent his fading hope and spirit.

Offline mouk

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #87 on: January 16, 2007, 09:24:16 pm »
Hello

This is the first time I post here although I have been completely obsessed with BBM for almost a year now, and I have done a lot of lurking. You guys never cease to amaze me with your insights and your eye for details!

As regards the hats, Jack wears a brownish hat, ie darker than Ennis but lighter than his own, on 3 occasions and on all those occasions he asks Ennis to come and live with him: at the Reunion, after the divorce, when he suggests Ennis moves to Texas. This intermediate colour could therefore be something like mingling, becoming one? By the final weekend at the lake he has a black hat again, he has lost hope of being together.

Randall has a brownish hat too - willing to share a cow and calf operation, if only Jack asked him?

As for Ennis's grey coat at the end of the film, it has a very distrubing resemblance with that of his father when he showed him Earl : Ennis is convinced that homophobia has killed Jack. Perhaps he even thinks that his own homophobia contributed to Jack's death: without this prejudice he would have had the sweet life with Jack.Jack would not have died this way.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #88 on: January 16, 2007, 10:02:19 pm »
Oh, MY, mouk!  What wonderful insights!  And you praised *us* for having an eye for details!

I think you've hit the nail on the head on both of those observations.  I was thinking after I made my post that it seemed Jack's hat went back to being black at the lake, and I could see how it worked with both of my theories to some extent, but with yours it works perfectly.

And Ennis' jacket!  My GOD.  I don't believe anyone has ever drawn that comparison before here or anywhere, that I know of.  That's just brilliant.  And totally in keeping with my theory that in a sense, Jack was killed by the very thing he loved - Ennis - because the latter couldn't move beyond the homophobia that had been ingrained in him BY HIS FATHER.

Wow.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #89 on: January 16, 2007, 10:50:38 pm »
Good points everyone!  And welcome mouk, those really were great insights!

I think it's important to ask the question that Barb raises here, which is why does Jack's hat go back to being black at the end?  I also find it interesting that Jack continues to wear the more traditional cowboy hats throughout the movie while we don't really see Ennis wearing a classic cowboy hat again after Brokeback (I mean he wears the cane hat which is cowboy shaped, but he never goes back to the really classic look he had on Brokeback).

This goes to my theory (which I've probably mentioned somewhere in this long old thread) about the boys' images as cowboys.  Well, Jack maintains an image of being a cowboy through the movie through fashion, but once he quits the rodeo he isn't really a cowboy anymore in terms of the type of work he does.  Ennis on the other hand, is a literal cowboy.  Actually working with cows.  He does work at a cow and calf operation (as he lets us know through the grocery store conversation with Alma)... this is real and hard labor for him... not a component of a fantasy as it becomes in Jack's dream.  Jack's dream to be with Ennis seems to be linked with his desire to go back and be a real cowboy again.  Jack's hat at the end is almost like a caricature of his first hat.  The last hat is black, but it's a little too large... a little too Texas and probably a little too expensive and designer.

That point about Ennis's coat is very interesting.  I don't remember it being discussed that way before either.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #90 on: January 17, 2007, 03:12:07 am »
That point about Ennis's coat is very interesting.

Yes, and he wears it constantly from the bus station scene to the end of the movie. I think we once wondered whether it was a sign that Jack was dead by the time Ennis was in the bus station.

The other interesting clothing detail in the Earl scene is what little Ennis is wearing -- his jacket and shirt faintly echo THE two shirts.

Offline mouk

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #91 on: January 17, 2007, 06:40:03 am »
Friends, thank you for your kind welcome.

I had never noticed before that Ennis was already wearing the coat at the bus station. Somebody says that there is also a Jack-like figure with a black hat passing by in the street, perhaps Jack quitting this world. Wow. I am not sure Jack dies that day, but I would think he is already dead, that's why Ennis is so depressed: he is waiting for an answer to his card and Jack is not responding. Why is he in a bus statio anyway, he who never travelled farther than round a coffee pot? Is it a sign that he is ready to travel a bit further to meet Jack?

Sorry, back on topic, Texan hat/fisherman hat. These reflect the social progress made by each, Jack being more affluent and living in a nouveau riche, show-off environment; Ennis getting poorer and never making it as a proper cow boy, remaining just a ranch hand. He had to squash his professional ambitions to remain available for the fishing trips. And perhaps this is why he wears a fisheman hat: Jack and the fishing trips are always on his mind. Perhaps also he wants to be as inconspicuous as possible by wearing a discreet hat? Perhaps he no longer feels he is worthy of being a cowboy with his shameful secret? While Jack tries to project an image of the successful, happy man he would like to be and hides his pain, frustration and  feelings of inadequacy under his flamboyant hat and behind his moustache.

As regards them wearing clothes that remind them of each other, did you notice the coat hanging in the entrance of Ennis's flat ? Very reminiscent of Jack's coat on the mountain...
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 06:53:10 am by mouk »

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #92 on: January 17, 2007, 10:44:06 am »
Yes, and he wears it constantly from the bus station scene to the end of the movie. I think we once wondered whether it was a sign that Jack was dead by the time Ennis was in the bus station.

Yep. It was actually me who brought up this idea. By then it was just an idea, but meanwhile I'm sure it's true.
It's Ang Lee's equivalent to Annie Proulx' Ennis didn't know about the accident for months...

What still strikes me is the uncanny likeness of Ennis' jacket and his father's. I've seen it interpreted as a sign that Ennis homophobia is getting even worse by the end and that he will end up being/thinking the same way like his father (sans the cruelty).
But I don't believe that since I don't see Ennis that way at all. I think the jacket with it's anthacite (almost black) color is a sign of death. I call it the death-jacket for myself.


As regards the hats, Jack wears a brownish hat, ie darker than Ennis but lighter than his own, on 3 occasions and on all those occasions he asks Ennis to come and live with him: at the Reunion, after the divorce, when he suggests Ennis moves to Texas. This intermediate colour could therefore be something like mingling, becoming one? By the final weekend at the lake he has a black hat again, he has lost hope of being together.

Randall has a brownish hat too - willing to share a cow and calf operation, if only Jack asked him?


I find this idea very intriguing. Does Jack wear the lighter hat only at these three occasions? And what do we make of the even more light hat(s) he wears in Texas? At both occasions we see him with the farm machines (one time praising it to customers, the other time with Bobby) he wears a light hat similar to the ones Ennis wears.

Oh, hold on a minute. While typing this, an old idea comes back to my mind: when being together, each wears his "own" colors: tan/brownish earthy tones for Ennis and intense blue and black for Jack. When away from each other, they often wear the other ones colors. Jack's very light Texas hat fits into this theory.

BTW while looking screencaps at stripedwall I just noticed that Jack wears his original black hat from Brokeback at the "You're late" fishing trip.

And not to forget: welcome to BetterMost Mouk! What an insightful first post you gave us.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #93 on: January 17, 2007, 10:58:36 am »
Why is he in a bus station anyway, he who never travelled farther than round a coffee pot? Is it a sign that he is ready to travel a bit further to meet Jack?

Ooooh, good one, mouk! And let me add my voice in welcoming you to BetterMost. You certainly are starting out with some great posts.

I'd never heard or thought of the idea that Ennis' bus station visit being a sign of him wanting to go further -- either literally or figuratively -- in his relationship with Jack. We've talked about the two guys standing at the counter, one in a white hat and one in a black hat, as representing a hypothetical Ennis and Jack going off on a life together. But maybe there's even more going on. Come to think of it, why is Ennis in the bus station? Is Riverton that devoid of cheery coffee shops or cafes that you'd have to go to such a bleak place for a piece of pie? Or is that a sign that Ennis is ready to "make a move"? I've always leaned toward thinking that Ennis wanted to improve their relationship when they met in November, so I'm partial to this theory. Thanks, mouk!

Offline mouk

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #94 on: January 17, 2007, 11:28:14 am »
Penthesilea, Latjoreme, hi! Thanks for the welcome, I am enjoing this thread.

The bus station - like you I always found it strange that he was in a bus station of all places. Especially considering that he seemed to have his favourite bar in town. It was the mention of  men with black and white hats buying tickets (I have not spotted them yet, look forward to yet another detail to take in) that gave me this idea, as, like you, I have always been of the opinion that by that time Ennis was ready for some change. Probably going somewhere metaphorically rather than geographically for the time being (eg giving more of his time to Jack), but who knows, perhaps he was finally starting to give more consideration to that cow and calf operation?

Back to the hats:
the very white hat with Bobby in the tractor and while selling tractors - somebody mentioned, very astutely, that the very white hats were the straight men (Jimbo and his friends, the tractor buyers). In this case, Jack is trying to conform, and to give the image of a straight man. Ennis is just off-white, ie trying desperately to look straight and conform to straight principles and way of life , to convince himself that he is staight really, because he was quite sure that's what he should be; while Jack, more confortable with his sexuality, just lies blatantly to others (very white, not off-white) for convenience and for his own safety but he does not lie to himself (he never gives up on the black hat)

Black hat at the 'You're late' fishin trip. This is a trip when he does not mention anything about living together. He is abiding by the rules that Ennis has set for their relationship, and trying to make the most of what he gets without asking for more. But he arrived before Ennis although he has such a long drive to do, he is VERY keen to see his man and keep him, whatever the conditions.

The Reunion and the After Divorce are scenes where he goes to Ennis with the express intention of arranging a future together - these are almost marriage hats. I don't think he intended to make another attempt during the 'come to Texas' fishin trip, he just happens to mention it because the conversation leads this way. But it is the only other scene apart from Reunion and Divorce when he mentions living together, and he wears a brown hat, so there must be some link. Perhaps to show that living with Ennis was always on his mind? His answer to Ennis comes out so spontaneously, he was just 'thinkin out loud' ie this was in his mind all the time and just escaped from his mouth.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #95 on: January 17, 2007, 11:56:58 am »
Penthesilea, Latjoreme, hi! Thanks for the welcome, I am enjoing this thread.

 I have always been of the opinion that by that time Ennis was ready for some change. Probably going somewhere metaphorically rather than geographically for the time being (eg giving more of his time to Jack), but who knows, perhaps he was finally starting to give more consideration to that cow and calf operation?

I know I'm going far, but I'm one of those who are sure Ennis was coming around, respectively had been coming around if Jack hadn't died. And I'm sure he at least gave the Cow&Calf operation some earnest consideration.


Quote
Back to the hats:
the very white hat with Bobby in the tractor and while selling tractors - somebody mentioned, very astutely, that the very white hats were the straight men (Jimbo and his friends, the tractor buyers). In this case, Jack is trying to conform, and to give the image of a straight man. Ennis is just off-white, ie trying desperately to look straight and conform to straight principles and way of life , to convince himself that he is staight really, because he was quite sure that's what he should be; while Jack, more confortable with his sexuality, just lies blatantly to others (very white, not off-white) for convenience and for his own safety but he does not lie to himself (he never gives up on the black hat)

Interesting.

Quote
Black hat at the 'You're late' fishin trip. This is a trip when he does not mention anything about living together. He is abiding by the rules that Ennis has set for their relationship, and trying to make the most of what he gets without asking for more. But he arrived before Ennis although he has such a long drive to do, he is VERY keen to see his man and keep him, whatever the conditions.

The Reunion and the After Divorce are scenes where he goes to Ennis with the express intention of arranging a future together - these are almost marriage hats. I don't think he intended to make another attempt during the 'come to Texas' fishin trip, he just happens to mention it because the conversation leads this way. But it is the only other scene apart from Reunion and Divorce when he mentions living together, and he wears a brown hat, so there must be some link. Perhaps to show that living with Ennis was always on his mind? His answer to Ennis comes out so spontaneously, he was just 'thinkin out loud' ie this was in his mind all the time and just escaped from his mouth.

I agree with much of what you've said, but in one thing I disagree: Jack proposing a move to Texas was not a slip. The topic may have come from Ennis' side, not initiated by Jack. But he saw the chance and was determined to use it. Look at his face and his tone, the casual manner was only pretended (when he shrugs while mentioning it). And Ennis knows it. That's (one of the reasons) why he blows up right the next second.
It may have been spontanously, but notwithstanding deliberate.
Missed chance, I'd say. May have been better to take Ennis' concerns more serious instead of using them for his (absolutely legitimate) goal. Jack was trying to take advantage of Ennis' revelation.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 12:02:59 pm by Penthesilea »

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #96 on: January 17, 2007, 12:10:16 pm »
 

Quote
Black hat at the 'You're late' fishin trip. This is a trip when he does not mention anything about living together. He is abiding by the rules that Ennis has set for their relationship, and trying to make the most of what he gets without asking for more. But he arrived before Ennis although he has such a long drive to do, he is VERY keen to see his man and keep him, whatever the conditions.

 Ever notice that its still the middle of the day when Ennis arrives even after Jack said goodby to Lureen and drove for 14 hours? Logisticaly it could be the next day were it not for Jack wearing the same shirt.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 12:41:15 pm by jpwagoneer1964 »
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #97 on: January 17, 2007, 12:17:38 pm »

Ever notice that its still the middle of the day when Ennis arrives even after Jack said goodby to Lureen and drove for 14 hours? Logisticaly it could be the next day were it not for Jack wearing the same shirt.

Well, the shirt alone doesn't indicate it's the next day. Or is it so uncommon to wear a shirt for more than one day?


Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #98 on: January 17, 2007, 12:37:06 pm »
Well, the shirt alone doesn't indicate it's the next day. Or is it so uncommon to wear a shirt for more than one day?


Jack would want to have a clean shirt on for Ennis, as well as Ennis for  Jack. Remember Ennis checking his shirts as he packed them for that very same trip?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2007, 12:40:02 pm by jpwagoneer1964 »
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #99 on: January 17, 2007, 01:53:59 pm »
the very white hat with Bobby in the tractor and while selling tractors - somebody mentioned, very astutely, that the very white hats were the straight men (Jimbo and his friends, the tractor buyers). In this case, Jack is trying to conform, and to give the image of a straight man. Ennis is just off-white, ie trying desperately to look straight and conform to straight principles and way of life , to convince himself that he is staight really, because he was quite sure that's what he should be; while Jack, more confortable with his sexuality, just lies blatantly to others (very white, not off-white) for convenience and for his own safety but he does not lie to himself (he never gives up on the black hat)

More good observations, mouk! I hadn't thought or heard about this before.

Offline mouk

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #100 on: January 17, 2007, 04:50:54 pm »
Quote
I agree with much of what you've said, but in one thing I disagree: Jack proposing a move to Texas was not a slip. The topic may have come from Ennis' side, not initiated by Jack. But he saw the chance and was determined to use it. Look at his face and his tone, the casual manner was only pretended (when he shrugs while mentioning it). And Ennis knows it. That's (one of the reasons) why he blows up right the next second.
It may have been spontanously, but notwithstanding deliberate.
Missed chance, I'd say. May have been better to take Ennis' concerns more serious instead of using them for his (absolutely legitimate) goal. Jack was trying to take advantage of Ennis' revelation.

Yep, Pentesilea, on second thoughts, I totally agree with you  :)

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #101 on: January 18, 2007, 02:23:33 am »
Jack would want to have a clean shirt on for Ennis, as well as Ennis for  Jack. Remember Ennis checking his shirts as he packed them for that very same trip?

I always get the sense that Ennis is checking to see that the shirts are not actually clean, but merely clean enough by his standards.

These two are hot for each other's sweet, salty stink.  I don't think Tide is their preferred scent.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #102 on: January 18, 2007, 08:08:49 pm »
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Cameron

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #103 on: January 18, 2007, 09:03:58 pm »
Penthesilea, Latjoreme, hi! Thanks for the welcome, I am enjoing this thread.

The bus station - like you I always found it strange that he was in a bus station of all places. Especially considering that he seemed to have his favourite bar in town. It was the mention of  men with black and white hats buying tickets (I have not spotted them yet, look forward to yet another detail to take in) that gave me this idea, as, like you, I have always been of the opinion that by that time Ennis was ready for some change. Probably going somewhere metaphorically rather than geographically for the time being (eg giving more of his time to Jack), but who knows, perhaps he was finally starting to give more consideration to that cow and calf operation?

Hi,

I just wanted to jump back in to the bus station discussion.  That was something that I wondered about.  To me it was one of the most heartbreaking images, to see Ennis sitting all alone in the bus station with no other people at the tables at all.  I first thought how incredibly sad, that this is what his life is now reduced to.  But then I decided that he chose to be in a place like that, he could have gone to the bar that he was in before, but he chose to be there all alone.  In my viewpoint the breakdown at the lake left him so depressed and in such despair that he didn't want to be in a place where he could have met other people.  I think that at the lake finally admitted to himself that he couldn't live without Jack, but maybe he felt like Jack left him alreadly.. (I wish we knew what they said after Ennis was crying in Jacks arms.)   I think he chose to be in a place where he was totally alone because he was so broken and depressed at that point.

I believe thatthe conversation with Cassie changed him, when she said "I don't get you ...."  I think that made him realize what he was doing to people and then he decided to change, and mailed the postcard to Jack.

 :-X :-X :-X



Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #104 on: January 19, 2007, 02:16:59 am »
I always get the sense that Ennis is checking to see that the shirts are not actually clean, but merely clean enough by his standards.

Yes, you don't really need to sniff a clean shirt -- it's hanging in the closet all fresh and washed. You sniff the ones you pick up off the floor or dig out from the dirty clothes pile. Don't ask how I know that.  ;D

  I think that at the lake finally admitted to himself that he couldn't live without Jack,

This is how I see it, marlb42.  :-\

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #105 on: March 22, 2007, 12:56:46 am »
I think that at the lake finally admitted to himself that he couldn't live without Jack, but maybe he felt like Jack left him alreadly.. (I wish we knew what they said after Ennis was crying in Jacks arms.)   I think he chose to be in a place where he was totally alone because he was so broken and depressed at that point.

I believe thatthe conversation with Cassie changed him, when she said "I don't get you ...."  I think that made him realize what he was doing to people and then he decided to change, and mailed the postcard to Jack.

 :-X :-X :-X


I really like your post marlb42.  I feel like the bus stop scene is the first scene were we see what Ennis's life will be like for the rest of his life (presumably).  Since by this scene Jack is gone from his life permanently.  You're so right about wondering *how* the boys left things after that intense hug after the lake-scene fight.  It's one of the most brilliant aspects of the flashback.  Besides the flashback being breathtaking in its own right... the timing of when it's placed in the film is critical!  It's because of the flashback that we don't hear the end of their argument/ conversation.  And, the look on Jack's face is so hard to read once the flashback is over, that it leaves tons of room for varying interpretations of what passed between them.  Did Jack actually quit Ennis?  Did they kiss and make up? Etc.  Because of the flashback we won't really ever know the extent of the kind of guilt/ regreat that Ennis is now left to deal with by the time the bus stop scene happens.   It's a nice filmic way to suggest the idea of the "open space between what he knew and tried to believe."  In this case though, the open space indicates the ambiguity in what the viewer knows and tries to believe.

I've never heard the suggestion that the look on Ennis's face at the end of his discussion with Cassie might mean that this is the moment that he decides to send the last postcard.  That's a great interpretation!  I've tended to see it as the moment that he clearly articulates (in his own head) the idea that he and Jack were in love.  I think deep down Ennis has known this for a long time... just not articulated/ admitted it to himself so clearly.  Of course, I think this is spurred by Cassie's open use of the word "love' here.
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Offline belbbmfan

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #106 on: March 22, 2007, 03:08:13 am »

The bus station - like you I always found it strange that he was in a bus station of all places. Especially considering that he seemed to have his favourite bar in town. It was the mention of  men with black and white hats buying tickets (I have not spotted them yet, look forward to yet another detail to take in) that gave me this idea, as, like you, I have always been of the opinion that by that time Ennis was ready for some change. Probably going somewhere metaphorically rather than geographically for the time being (eg giving more of his time to Jack), but who knows, perhaps he was finally starting to give more consideration to that cow and calf operation?



I'd never heard or thought of the idea that Ennis' bus station visit being a sign of him wanting to go further -- either literally or figuratively -- in his relationship with Jack. We've talked about the two guys standing at the counter, one in a white hat and one in a black hat, as representing a hypothetical Ennis and Jack going off on a life together. But maybe there's even more going on. Come to think of it, why is Ennis in the bus station? Is Riverton that devoid of cheery coffee shops or cafes that you'd have to go to such a bleak place for a piece of pie? Or is that a sign that Ennis is ready to "make a move"? I've always leaned toward thinking that Ennis wanted to improve their relationship when they met in November, so I'm partial to this theory. Thanks, mouk!


This is a great thread! I never thought about the meaning of Ennis being in a bus station at this point in the movie, but your explanations make a lot of sense. Thanks!
Here's the picture of the two cowboys (black hat - white hat) buying the tickets. I wonder what Ennis thought when he saw them, if he saw them at all, of course. He did seem to be totally caught up in his own world...  :-\

'We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em'

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #107 on: March 22, 2007, 08:58:24 am »
Here's the picture of the two cowboys (black hat - white hat) buying the tickets. I wonder what Ennis thought when he saw them, if he saw them at all, of course. He did seem to be totally caught up in his own world...  :-\

The white-hatted cowboy is wearing a light-colored plaid, Ennislike shirt, and the black-hatted one is wearing a blue shirt and has black hair! I hadn't noticed that before.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #108 on: March 22, 2007, 09:25:47 am »
Yeah, posting these still images is certainly helpful in being able to pick out some of the subtle aspects of these details.  I hadn't really thought about shirt color/ hair color, etc. regarding those background cowboys before either.

What do we think about the person (who seems to have a black hat) that walks passed the window of the bus stop (I think quite early in the bus stop scene)?  I've always seen that figure as very ominous.  Like the first visual cue that Jack is no longer with us.
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Offline belbbmfan

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #109 on: March 22, 2007, 12:01:11 pm »

What do we think about the person (who seems to have a black hat) that walks passed the window of the bus stop (I think quite early in the bus stop scene)?  I've always seen that figure as very ominous.  Like the first visual cue that Jack is no longer with us.

I haven't yet found a picture of that guy. But i did find this 'Jack' passing Ennis by, right after the big fight with Alma about her taking an extra shift at the store. Poor Ennis, as if he needed any more reminding about why his life was so miserable at that time.

'We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em'

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #110 on: March 22, 2007, 01:24:47 pm »
Wow! It amazes me that over a year after my first viewing, I'm still discovering new things in this wondrous work of art, thanks to all you wonderful folks out there. I never noticed the Jack-like fella in the argument scene before, but...there he is! Ennis must have been haunted by Jack constantly, both before Jack's tragic demise and after.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #111 on: March 22, 2007, 04:58:16 pm »
Yeah, this Jack-like guy always reminds me of the guy that Ennis almost runs over in the dirveway behind the laundromat apartment right before the reunion kiss scene.  There seem to be lots of Jack-like guys strolling around in Ennis's world.
 :D ;)

I think some of my favorite Jack-like guys in Ennis's world are the guy in the background in the bar when Ennis is rubbing Cassie's feet... and the guy dancing on the little dance floor when Alma Jr. watches Cassie dance with Ennis.


And, conversely, lots of Ennis-like guys seem to like watching Jack at the rodeo and to dance on the dance floors of bars/ social halls that Jack frequents.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #112 on: March 25, 2007, 05:45:50 am »
hmmmm. maybe this is why I have a black hat and a white hat.....and a tan one too.
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #113 on: May 01, 2007, 11:32:45 pm »
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #114 on: September 27, 2007, 11:21:52 pm »
<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/2136439-420.jpg" border="0" />


I'm reviving this wonderful old thread with a cross-reference to this week's TOTW... Here's another example of a white-hat-wearing guy positioned significantly near Jack at a very crucial scene.  I wonder if this white hat behind Jack during the moments when he's making his acquaintance with Randall is meant to visually indicate the constant nature of Jack's conflict when it comes to meeting other men.  The white hat can symbolize his continued/ continual desire for Ennis as his ideal (any other guy will be a pale substitute) and it probably indicates a level of guilt that Jack must have been dealing with in an instance when a new opportunity presents itself.  The white hat is like a specter that's omnipresent for Jack just as all those guys in black hats appear at crucial times in Ennis's life.


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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #115 on: September 30, 2007, 10:20:10 pm »
Oh, wow.  Nice catch, Amanda.  In all my viewings (and reviewing screen caps), I've never seen that one.  Especially nice touch in that he's also wearing a tan jacket.  Just further affirmation of the genius of Ang Lee.

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #116 on: October 03, 2007, 12:48:16 am »
Oh, wow.  Nice catch, Amanda.  In all my viewings (and reviewing screen caps), I've never seen that one.  Especially nice touch in that he's also wearing a tan jacket.  Just further affirmation of the genius of Ang Lee.



Yeah, you're right about the tan jacket.  The combination of the hat and the jacket is really evocative of Ennis.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #117 on: October 09, 2007, 05:54:10 am »
I have to admit that I had caught that.

[lol]

It is beautifully done.  And in january if my son had not helped me pick out the clothes to get married in I'd have looked like Jack at that dinner, they were trying to sell me formal leather cowboy jackets and I was so flipped out I'd a bought it.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #118 on: January 11, 2008, 01:37:28 am »


I've been feeling nostalgic for some of the older Open Forum threads tonight and have been having fun reading through this wonderful old topic.

And, I wanted to ask a bit more about this image...  The significance of the white-hat-wearing and black-hat-wearing cowboys buys bus tickets together, seems to be the primary important background detail here.  But, there's also more going on that could be of interest.

Not only are these two guys buying bus tickets together... the counter is covered with candy for sale.  Is this a not-too subtle reference to the "sweet life" that Jack had hoped for?

It's interesting that both the two cowboys and Cassie and Karl are heading in the direction towards the candy.

Having these still images available really is hugely helpful in these discussions.  I feel like I always notice new things when I look at these stills closely and carefully.

I feel like... noticing the blue and red symbol for the bus station on the wall... that there really should be a full thread on the topic of blue and red since this color combination is also seen throughout the movie, much like black and white.



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Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #119 on: January 11, 2008, 01:48:56 am »
all this time and I never realised they were buying tickets, heading towards the sweet life!!!!!!!!!

that is very very good
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #120 on: January 11, 2008, 02:12:00 am »
all this time and I never realised they were buying tickets, heading towards the sweet life!!!!!!!!!

that is very very good

LOL, I'd never noticed the candy before.  So, it really is just amazing how many new details there are to discover all the time.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #121 on: January 11, 2008, 10:40:30 pm »
Here's a new detail that just came to me the other night as I lay awake in bed, not having seen the movie in months...

Did you ever notice that throughout the movie, Jack is always on the right side of the screen when he and Ennis are intimate?

Think about it:  TS1 (while he's sleeping, anyway), TS2, post-TS2 romp, Reunion, Motel Siesta... Jack is on the right, or on Ennis' left.

But in the final Tent Scene, Jack is sleeping on the left side of the screen (on Ennis' right).

Coincidence?  I think not.  ;)

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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #122 on: January 12, 2008, 07:57:57 am »
BARB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :D
So great to see you here. Missin ya, girl  :-*


Here's a new detail that just came to me the other night as I lay awake in bed, not having seen the movie in months...

Did you ever notice that throughout the movie, Jack is always on the right side of the screen when he and Ennis are intimate?

Think about it:  TS1 (while he's sleeping, anyway), TS2, post-TS2 romp, Reunion, Motel Siesta... Jack is on the right, or on Ennis' left.

But in the final Tent Scene, Jack is sleeping on the left side of the screen (on Ennis' right).

Coincidence?  I think not.  ;)




That's a great obversation, albeit their positions are not continous in those scenes. For example, in TS2 first Ennis the one on the right; and during the Reunion the camera angle switches repeated times, so that sometimes Ennis is on the right, sometimes Jack.











But I think this doesn't take away from your observation; we had other examples where Ang Lee mostly stuck to one pattern (with symbols or whatever) - but not always. Maybe it would be too easy otherwise  :).
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 09:55:16 am by Penthesilea »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #123 on: January 12, 2008, 02:13:42 pm »

we had other examples where Ang Lee mostly stuck to one pattern (with symbols or whatever) - but not always. Maybe it would be too easy otherwise  :).

I think it's definitely very fair to say that Lee and the cinematographer (Rodrigo I guess) established visual patterns pretty early in the film.

One of the big examples of straying from a pattern (back on the hat topic) is Jack's hat colors.  It always bugs me that his hat color fluctuates.  I mean, I think we all think of Jack as the black hat cowboy... but sometimes (and in important scenes too) he wears tan.

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Offline Gabreya

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #124 on: April 27, 2008, 01:04:03 am »
I always thought that the black hat and white hat are the symbolisms of Ennis and Jack's differences, despite they do in fact attract. Black and white colors will always go well with eachother. Plus, black hats isn't always worn by the bad guys. Lol!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #125 on: April 28, 2008, 03:33:22 pm »
I always thought that the black hat and white hat are the symbolisms of Ennis and Jack's differences, despite they do in fact attract. Black and white colors will always go well with eachother. Plus, black hats isn't always worn by the bad guys. Lol!

This is a very interesting point about the black and white hats...  we may have touched on it in the past, but I don't recall a huge discussion about the traditional cowboy symbolism of "black hat = bad guy" and "white hat = good guy."

I wonder if there's something to be analyzed there?  Why would Jack be in the "bad guy" hat?  I've always seen the black hat as a metaphor for being a "black sheep"... or a rebel/ outsider.  But, that's not exactly the same thing as a "bad guy."

And, as for the white hat... it makes sense to me that Ennis would wear the white hat, because to me it signifies "protagonist" as well as the traditional "good guy" idea.

Maybe as far as the '63 summer goes, this has to do with experience.  Maybe Ennis is in "virginal" white (he's still a little naive and of course literally loses his virginity with Jack).  And, maybe we really are supposed to see Jack as more experienced (even sexually) and thus the black hat.  Jack is also a form of temptation for Ennis, which may factor into this to a degree.

It's hard to think very literally in terms of "good" and "bad" when it comes to Ennis and Jack though.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

retropian

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #126 on: December 24, 2008, 09:27:41 pm »
I've been reviewing threads on this board that I've missed. I don't know how I missed this one because the subject is one of my favorites. I haven't finished reading thru all the posts but there are lots of great ideas.

My own idea of what Jacks black and Ennis's white hat I posted long long ago on IMDB. In the Western film genre the good guy, the hero frequently wore a white hat and the bad guy a black hat. So much so that it became a cinematic trope, the audience would know who the hero was and who the villain was instantly, especially in a silent film. In later westerns of the 50's and 60's the good guy is usually just trying to make an honest life for himself as a rancher, or farmer, or just trying to keep the peace in his little community as the sheriff. The black hat is the one who starts the plot moving. He's the one who instigates the action. The white hat is threatened in some way and must respond in an effort to return things to the way they where before the black hat showed up. And usually the white hat would get the girl too in the end, so he'd have it all. The white hat would also come to a greater understanding of himself and those around him; the woman he loves the other inhabitants of his community and even of the black hat.
In BBM Jack being the black hat instigates the action which drives the film forward. He is the 1st to put out his hand to Ennis and introduce himself, he leads the way to the bar, he draws Ennis out of his shell, he instigates the sex, he instigates the reunion, he suggests the cow and calf operation. Ennis in contrast as the white hat is simply trying to live his life as best he can and to him that means conforming to what western society claims as a proper life: Married with kids, a hard worker competent at what he does. Heterosexual.  He needs to be the stoic cowboy. Jack throws a wrench into all of that and Ennis must reject him, at least at the end of the summer of '63. Later Jack reappears and Ennis engages with him, again he rejects him, but only partially and tries to have it both ways. In the end Ennis wind's up where he started; alone and still poor. But he does have his daughter's. He's also learned something about himself and Jack along the way.

Offline Lynne

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #127 on: December 25, 2008, 11:38:56 am »
Keep of the good work, mining these old threads, Ian.  This is one of my classic favorites!
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retropian

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #128 on: December 31, 2008, 04:22:50 am »
Keep of the good work, mining these old threads, Ian.  This is one of my classic favorites!

Yeah, from time to time I like to go back and read thru old threads such as the IMDB rewind threads. It's fun to get reacquainted with old posts from when BBM was still in release. I'm always surprised and happy to encounter ideas people had presented that are either new to me, or that I've forgotten.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #129 on: January 14, 2014, 03:52:00 pm »
I can't believe the last post in this classic old thread was in 2008!!  :o Wow, it's amazing how well-established the Brokie community is at this point.

Well, I'm reviving this thread because I had a genuine question come up about the tradition of cowboy hats in movies.  In a completely different type of discussion with non-Brokies over on facebook, it was mentioned that there is a long tradition in western movies of the "good guy" rarely losing his hat or having his hat knocked off even in action sequences. 

I don't know if this is accurate, I don't really know enough about a wide variety of westerns to know.  So, I was wondering if anyone else had ever heard this?  And, I also wonder if it is the case... if it could have some interesting ramifications for BBM?  I'll have to go back and watch the movie to see if and when various characters lose their hats (or keep their hats in improbable moments).

Also, I apologize if this has come up before.  I haven't re-read this entire thread before posting this question.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #130 on: January 15, 2014, 03:05:01 am »
So, I was wondering if anyone else had ever heard this? 


No, I've never heard of this. Which doesn't mean much.


Quote
And, I also wonder if it is the case... if it could have some interesting ramifications for BBM?  I'll have to go back and watch the movie to see if and when various characters lose their hats (or keep their hats in improbable moments).


Scenes from the top of my head:

- the angry tussle; here both of their hats get knocked off.

- Jack's hat gets knocked off in the heat of the reunion scene.

- Ennis' hat gets not knocked off when he beats up the bikers

- but it does years later, when he gets beat up by the truck driver

- both of their hats do not get knocked off at the end of the lake scene argument (damn you, Ennis), which seems odd to me. Well, not Jack's, but Ennis' hat should come off the way/angle he clings to Jack.

- does Ennis' hat get knocked off when he falls off his horse as he encounters the bear? I think yes, but not sure.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #131 on: January 15, 2014, 03:08:29 am »
- does Ennis' hat get knocked off when he falls off his horse as he encounters the bear? I think yes, but not sure.



Nope, it doesn't, which is again odd.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #132 on: January 15, 2014, 08:22:57 pm »
Thanks for all these observations Chrissi!!  It seems like this actually might be a significant issue.  It's amazing how new angles of analysis can still emerge after all these years.  It does seem like they keep their hats in moments when they are meant to be particularly sympathetic.
 :D

i wonder how this issue relates to female characters?  I keep thinking of the barrel racing scene with Lureen where her hat flies off and Jack gets it for her.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #133 on: January 16, 2014, 01:38:16 am »
Paul brought up another example where they keep their hats off, even though it seems against probability:

Interesting that only Ennis is wearing the hat; must have been very difficult to film the dozy embrace without knocking off each other's hats!


But if you ask me, it's purely for the looks in that scene, I don't see any other significance in the fact that they keep their hats on other that it looks simply glorious.

Offline Monika

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #134 on: January 16, 2014, 03:16:11 am »
Paul brought up another example where they keep their hats off, even though it seems against probability:


But if you ask me, it's purely for the looks in that scene, I don't see any other significance in the fact that they keep their hats on other that it looks simply glorious.
I think the hats were left on to reinforce the fact that  they are cowboys (I know - sheep hearders - but still).
Cowboys are such an integral part of American folklore.
A fact that no doubt makes it more provoking to some, too.


Offline CellarDweller

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #135 on: January 16, 2014, 09:13:43 am »
Interesting that only Ennis is wearing the hat; must have been very difficult to film the dozy embrace without knocking off each other's hats!

I have to agree that the hats were left on for the effect/purpose of reinforcing they were cowboys, and yes, the dozy embrace had to be difficult with the hats.   I speak from experience.

 :laugh:





That was from the Colorado gathering.  Jari does not have a hat.  I have seen video from a different angle, and before this pose was achieved, Jari's arm kept resting on the brim, causing the hat to pop up.   :laugh:


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Offline southendmd

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #136 on: January 16, 2014, 10:17:20 am »
Coincidentally, I saw one of Fritz's videos on fb yesterday:  it was from Estes Park, and in it, Adam and Rodney were recreating the Dozy Embrace.  Rodney even commented on how hard it is to do when both are wearing hats!  Especially, he said, because Jake and Heath are similar in height.

Offline southendmd

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Re: Black Hats, White Hats
« Reply #137 on: January 16, 2014, 10:19:08 am »
BTW, here is the photo from opera rehearsals where only Ennis wears the (black) hat: