Author Topic: TOTW 05/07: Should Ang Lee have showed more affection between Ennis and Jack?  (Read 9134 times)

Offline Penthesilea

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Mornin, folks and happy new week  :)

This week we have another first: we don't discuss within the movie/story, but try to step back and have a look from the outside.
We have been profundly moved by Ang Lee's movie, by the love between two characters, which shows so clearly to us. But yet, others didn't see the love so clearly, and with all the restraint Lee put into his work he left us with the feeling of "never enough".

Should Ang Lee have showed more affection between Ennis and Jack?

What would have been the effects if he had? Isn't this "never enough" feeling part of the fascination? Would it have been marred, had Lee shown more affection? How about non-Brokies? People who saw the movie, but weren't hit by it like a ton of bricks?

Tell us what you think  :).

Offline SFEnnisSF

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All I ever wanted, and hoped for, was a brief 5-10 second clip of them being affectionate up on the mountain the first summer.  Show them sharing a cigarette.  Showed Jack cuddled up behind Ennis with Ennis arms around Jack around the campfire.  Hell, even 3 seconds would've been enough.

Lots of folks said "they were just friends" or "they didn't see the love".  This left a lot of folks "not getting the movie".  I do feel that Ang was a little reserved in this here.  I swear, I think a 3, 5, or 10 second clip as I mentioned above would have made a world of difference to those who didn't "see" the love and to those of us who "wanted more"!

Offline Brown Eyes

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I perceived tons of chemistry between them from the beginning... I think they have boat loads of chemistry.  I even think Jake and Heath have lots of chemistry in real life (in interviews, etc... like on Oprah). 

And, yes, I've always thought Ang Lee should have shown more affection... at least a moment or two of affection... during the later camping trips after the reunion.

I've always thought that after the reunion the film focused *too* much on the lives of the wives, children, Cassie, etc.  That aspect of the film is just so different from the story where the attention is always on Jack and Ennis.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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          I agree with Amanda, in that I could have had less focus on the family, but it would have then been more difficult to sell to the general public..They needed to see the devastation they were causing by their illicit behaviors.
          I agree with Eric partially too.  I would have liked to see the affection and love that kept them returning again and again to each other after the reunion.  I felt that they only showed the negativity of the relationship, after the first time, when Jack stroked Ennis's neck when he was showing such sorrow.
          But as to showing the affection and not sex part only for a few seconds,, I thought that the scene that Aguirre watched was entirely that.  Horseplay, fun and affection all rolled into one..But I will have to say I thought it was cut way too short...I would have liked to see a few more seconds of that. " Never enough time never enough."



     Beautiful mind

Offline Brown Eyes

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I think the sense that editing out some moments of affection might have been done to appeal to a "general audience" is one of the more annoying implications of this issue (of the lack of affection in the second half of the film and the over-emphasis on the families). 

The one aspect of it that I think works artistically, is it gives the relationship between Jack and Ennis a sense of privacy.  It makes it feel like after the reunion, we're not invited to watch them anymore and that their interactions are purely for them.  Some of the edits are so striking... as in the camping trip after Jack finds his blue parka and is cooking corn waiting for Ennis.  The camera cuts just as the two of them make contact.  And after that all the later camping scenes show us the bare-minimum for us to understand that their relationship was progressing.  I appreciate the idea that their relationship is given space and is not sensationalized in the later parts of the film.  Somehow, I also think it sets the dozy embrace flashback up for being extra-romantic since it's the first really romantic physical contact that we've seen since the reunion (the very brief and somewhat ominous TS3 moment aside).

So, I can argue both pros and cons for the lack of affection in the later part of the film.  I do find it irritating if the decision was done for a marketing reason.

The contrast between the first and second halves of the film is definitely striking though.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Brown Eyes

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The dozy embrace was that perfect moment of affection that made the tears start flowing.


I agree completely.  The dozy embrace (still after about a million viewings) makes me cry almost every time.  :) :'(


And, well, I guess perceiving chemistry is just subjective.  There's no right or wrong way to read it.  For me I felt the chemistry starting in the bar after the initial meeting in Aguirre's trailer.  I LOVE the opening of the movie.  In the earliest moments, before Aguirre arrives and asks them to come into his trailer... I don't so much feel chemistry as a sense of wonder or curiosity.  By the time of the bar and Ennis borrowing Jack's lighter, I definitely feel chemistry.  I suppose in terms of acting I feel this most in the way Jake/ Jack looks at Ennis and the tone of voice.  It still feels much more subtle with Heath/ Ennis, but this is right to me since Ennis is a little slower to catch-up to Jack in terms of sexual awareness.  I still contend that some of this really probably does come from Jake and Heath's camaraderie that seems pretty comfortable even in real life.


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Oregondoggie

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Ang Lee's sense of reticence annoys me every time I see the movie. 

Jack could have still peeled that damn potato and been sneaking a furtive look at Ennis' bawd (as Annie wrote it).   And, after the Second Night In The Tent, a couple of warm loving scenes BEFORE Aguirre sees them horsing around would have been nice.  The scene in the motel could have panned up from more of Ennis' torso. 

Hope I live long enough to see the remake in 30 years or so.  (With actors who aren't physical godlets, by the way!)

Offline Katie77

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At my first viewing of the movie, I thought they could have left the first tent scene out, or rather, could have just let us know what happened in a more subtle way...

Even though i felt that way, the movie still had a hold of me and affected me instantly.

After several more viewings, my feelings did a complete turn around, and I wanted more...wanted the love scenes to be longer and more detailed, wanted more scenes of affection, wanted to hear them speak to one another as lovers, there is just not enough...never enough.

I think Ang has given us the same frustrating feeling that Jack felt, of there never being enough, and once Jack was gone, the feeling that probably Ennis felt, that we would never see them together again.
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

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......... there is just not enough...never enough.

I think Ang has given us the same frustrating feeling that Jack felt, of there never being enough, and once Jack was gone, the feeling that probably Ennis felt, that we would never see them together again.

I completely agree with you, Katie. Of course I long for more tender scenes, as much as both of them longed for more time together. It´s a frustrating situation, ( although we have the option of rewinding and watching the scenes over and over again, and still....) and that reflects perfectly the way they felt all the time. Longing for more, more, more, and this devastating feeling of never again once Jack had died....

moremojo

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The movie shows us a lot more affection between Ennis and Jack than the short story does. The story's characters are a lot less admirable in many ways than how the film presents them (this is especially true of Jack), and the emphasis in the original tale is how obtuse the two men are (or at least Ennis is) to what is really going on between them. They rationalize that it's just sex, when they really have fallen in love.

I feel that the film shows just enough affection between Jack and Ennis to make its salient points. I would have preferred to have seen more, but the film would have been different as a result, certainly with less of the "never enough time" flavor that imbues the overall product with such melancholy.

Offline Brown Eyes

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I think Ang has given us the same frustrating feeling that Jack felt, of there never being enough, and once Jack was gone, the feeling that probably Ennis felt, that we would never see them together again.

I think this is a great observation and probably very accurate.  It's interesting to think about how the film itself and the strategies employed to make the film actually function to strengthen the narrative or mood of the film... or theme of the film even (frustration, lack of time, etc.).
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Ellemeno

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Like y'all are saying - I want more, but that's Ang's plan - to leave us wanting more, and feel that never enoughness.

Offline belbbmfan

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I think this is a great observation and probably very accurate.  It's interesting to think about how the film itself and the strategies employed to make the film actually function to strengthen the narrative or mood of the film... or theme of the film even (frustration, lack of time, etc.).

Yes, I agree. That is, i've now reached a point where I can agree. My sense of sadness and frustration after seeing the film was so intense that I would have said 'no' to this question. I wanted to see more. I would have loved to hear Jack say that line from the story 'that's one of the two things I need right now' during one of their later camping trips.

But I understand and accept why there isn't more affection shown. It's one of the brilliant aspects of this movie, in not showing us what we wanted to see, we ended up feeling exactly like the characters in the movie. And crying over the sad and difficult lives of two ranch hands in Wyoming... :'(
'We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em'

Offline jstephens9

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The appeal to the “general audience” is partially a flaw in the movie especially since I’m not even sure that the “general audience” even got it. I would say that the “general audience” were more likely to get Jake’s appearance on SNL which was shown for at least the third time this past Saturday. I’m sorry to those who like this, but I still don’t get that and I certainly do not like it. There was nothing funny about BBM and there certainly wasn’t anything funny about Jake’s drag performance or the gay cowboys. Sorry I will get off my soapbox.

I also feel there was an overemphasis on family as many of you have already expressed. We certainly did not need the scenes between Jack and Laureen, none of them. She could have just as easily been only the voice on the phone as she was in the book. We definitely did not need any of Cassie. The only point of her even being in the movie that I can see is to show how much Ennis is basically turned off by her. The dumping part by Ennis was the only good part of any of those scenes with the "throw my feet in your lap for a foot rub" being the worst. She was probably the worst and most disgusting character in the entire movie. We also did not need Randall and his talkative wife either. I think it would have been much better to show more of Jack and Ennis on the trips to Brokeback. This in itself would have possibly shown the general population the amount of love that was shared between them. The best scenes of the movie for me are the ones where they are talking to each other. The movie was not about sex so I definitely do not think more was needed in that area. The second tent scene and the motel scene of the reunion obviously pointed out that there were sexual relations, but the main thrust here was the affection and compassion Ennis and Jack showed to each other. Believe it or not, the first tent scene is not one of my favorite parts of the movie although it was needed to get from where they were to where they ended up. To me that scene showed no love or affection and I think a lot of people judge the movie from that scene.

As far as chemistry, I also felt that develop in the first bar scene after they left Aguirre’s trailer. I never felt there was any lack of chemistry and that came through strong each and every time they talked. I felt that Ennis had a very difficult time showing his feelings and fought them rather than giving into them. I feel that this was part of his character. I feel that this made it even harder for Jack to ever know what was completely going on between them. He knew and felt the chemistry, but what he did not and never knew was how far Ennis would truly go for him. We, of course, never knew that either. It seemed obvious after Jack’s death and the final feelings we see from Ennis that if it were possible for Ennis to do it over again things would have been much different, but what would have happened if Jack had not of died? Would they have continued the occasional meetings on Brokeback with the same outcome forever? Would Ennis have ever recognized what he truly had and wanted from Jack?

And one final point, I agree with all of you who have mentioned the closeness between Heath and Jake in real life. I think this movie would have been very difficult had they not have been as close as they are. I have always said that these two have a lot of feelings for each other and to me it came through in the movie.

Offline huntinbuddy

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As far as chemistry, I also felt that develop in the first bar scene after they left Aguirre’s trailer. I never felt there was any lack of chemistry and that came through strong each and every time they talked. I felt that Ennis had a very difficult time showing his feelings and fought them rather than giving into them. I feel that this was part of his character. I feel that this made it even harder for Jack to ever know what was completely going on between them. He knew and felt the chemistry, but what he did not and never knew was how far Ennis would truly go for him. We, of course, never knew that either.

Agreed,  but I think the one thing that could have been included if not at the laundry apartment reunion scene, but perhaps somewhere else, is from the original short story.......and Ennis, not big on endearments, said what he said to his horses and daughters, little darlin.

There is no question in my mind that Ennis and Jack have very strong feelings for each other.  The reunion scene proves that.  But I think using the line above from the original story would have sealed it for many viewers. After all, Ennis is the one who doesn't use many words to begin with

Offline jstephens9

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That is a great idea huntinbuddy. I too think that would have been a line that should have been included. I know that line in the book definitely had an effect on me. Like you say Ennis doesn't say many words or express many endearments anyway, and the "little darlin" line would have fit in so perfectly with his character towards someone that he loved which was obviously Jack.

Offline Fran

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The appeal to the “general audience” is partially a flaw in the movie especially since I’m not even sure that the “general audience” even got it. I would say that the “general audience” were more likely to get Jake’s appearance on SNL which was shown for at least the third time this past Saturday. I’m sorry to those who like this, but I still don’t get that and I certainly do not like it. There was nothing funny about BBM and there certainly wasn’t anything funny about Jake’s drag performance or the gay cowboys. Sorry I will get off my soapbox.

Jstephens, I agree with you totally re Jake's appearance on SNL, although we're probably the minority opinion here.

To answer the topic question, yes, I think Ang Lee should have included more affection between Ennis and Jack, especially the little acts of verbal and physical affection included in the story.  The "little darlin'" line definitely should have been included (multiple times), with Ennis saying it to his horses, his daughters, and Jack but never to Alma.  The shared cigarette at the Motel Fiesta also would have been a nice touch as well as the later scene in the story when the horses are nickering in the darkness and Ennis puts his arm around Jack, pulling him close, and Jack puts his cold hand between Ennis's legs while they talk about their children.

That said, I think more interaction of any kind between Ennis and Jack would have been nice.

BTW, my least favorite characters were Randall and Lashawn, especially the latter.  We didn't need to hear Lashawn's endless chatter; let's face it, we're not particularly interested in anything she has to say.  It's almost as if the screenwriters are giving Randall a reason not to want to be with her when Randall doesn't need another reason.  The inclusion of Cassie doesn't bother me as much because BBM is mostly Ennis's story and she's part of that.  I also didn't like the "foot rub, dummy" scene -- probably because I wouldn't stick my smelly feet in the lap of a guy I was trying to attract.  :)



« Last Edit: August 30, 2007, 12:19:10 am by Fran »

Offline BBM-Cat

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So many wonderful insights....just wanted to add that I would have liked movie Ennis to state the line from the story at the reunion, about 'not letting Jack out of his sights' referring to the day they parted in Signal.

Overall, yes, I would like to have seen a few more moments of affection and intimacy between Jack and Ennis. Although, I never stopped believing it was there despite how difficult their lives became.

Fabienne (and others) have described the phenomenon so well - "in not showing us what we wanted to see, we ended up feeling exactly like the characters in the movie". I wonder if the impact of the movie would have been nearly the same if we weren't left with a sense of longing at the end of it. Look at the proliferation of wonderful fan stories that help to fill in some of the gaps. The repression of emotion has allowed for some very creative and imaginative scenarios.
Six-word Stories:  ~Jack: Lightning Flat, lightning love, flat denied   ~Ennis: Open space: flat tire, tire iron?

Offline Toycoon

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Fabienne (and others) have described the phenomenon so well - "in not showing us what we wanted to see, we ended up feeling exactly like the characters in the movie". I wonder if the impact of the movie would have been nearly the same if we weren't left with a sense of longing at the end of it. Look at the proliferation of wonderful fan stories that help to fill in some of the gaps. The repression of emotion has allowed for some very creative and imaginative scenarios.

This is exactly what I've come to realize about the film, we end up feeling like there 'ain't never enough time'. We want so much more for these characters but we never get it. Wanting to see more affection between the fellas is exactly what spurred the fanfic thread, Jack with Ennis/The Fanfic Game. Now, we 'get' to see plenty of action. Yeehaw!
"The most important thing is being sincere, even if you have to fake it." - Cesar Romero

Offline BBM-Cat

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This is exactly what I've come to realize about the film, we end up feeling like there 'ain't never enough time'. We want so much more for these characters but we never get it. Wanting to see more affection between the fellas is exactly what spurred the fanfic thread, Jack with Ennis/The Fanfic Game. Now, we 'get' to see plenty of action. Yeehaw!

Yes, and especially, thank goodness for that thread!  :laugh:
Six-word Stories:  ~Jack: Lightning Flat, lightning love, flat denied   ~Ennis: Open space: flat tire, tire iron?

Offline Dobie1018

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Yes, I definitely wish Ang Lee would have let the boys show more affection towards one another.  Just an arm around a shoulder or a pat on the back, a hug when they greeted each other whenever they got together.  Another tent scene would have been nice, with them both laying close to each other and just talking.  When they were sitting by the stream and Jack says "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.", I wanted Ennis to go over to him and put an arm around him or hug him or something.  The book says upon parting after that initial summer, they each hit each other on the shoulder.  Even just that small touch between them would have been nice.