Question.. Gay v Lesbian - is one more 'socially acceptable' than the other?

[Kelda]

I asked this in Maggiesmommys thread about the family stone..but though I'd pose it again in a new topic..

Another question I've been meaning to pose... do people think that a male gay couple is more socially acceptable than a lesbian couple and if so, why?

My take is yes, but I'm not quite sure why.. TV maybe?

More male gay characters on TV? (I know there was The L Word but I never watched it)

latjoreme was the only reply, with

I don't know about real life, but you're right, in movies this certainly seems to be true. Maybe it's because most filmmakers are straight men who feel even more threatened by gay women than they are by gay men.

Thoughts guys?
K
x

[isabelle]

Believe me, where I live (France), same-sex couples are NOT socially acceptable, whether male OR female, so I'd be hard-pressed to answer. But I'll try.
I have watched the L Word, but on imported DVD since it is not known in France. And the ONE gay-oriented channel we have is private, therefore you have to pay for it and few people watch it, but yeah, it is more male oriented I think.
I would venture to say that it is because whatever men do in our societies, it is paid more attention than what women do - unless it concerns housekeeping and child-rearing issues. Or faithfulness to husband.
When homosexuality was still a crime (till 1982 here) and on the list of mental illnesses (till 1992 here, and till 1990 for the World Health Organization), it seems that more male gays suffered, or are known to have suffered, than lesbians (I think of Oscar Wilde, Joe Orton...). Female homosexuality was even NOT believed to exist by Queen Victoria! So it has probably been more invisible all the time, and now that in some countries or social backgrounds gay couples are becoming socially acceptable, I am not surprised that male gay couples are more acceptable: they're the ones who've been talked about all the time.
Just my 2 cents.

[Kelda]

wow! Thankyou for filling me in in the French attitude/background to this.

I have to say I'm surprised. I always took France to be a very liberal nation in a lot of ways. How was BBM recieved?


I def think you are right when you say this - and then this would be reinforced by television and the media.. ie will and grace etc.

So it has probably been more invisible all the time, and now that in some countries or social backgrounds gay couples are becoming socially acceptable, I am not surprised that male gay couples are more acceptable: they're the ones who've been talked about all the time.
Just my 2 cents.

[isabelle]

BBM was seen by over 1,4 million people in France, although there was no big hype (only the 'intelligent' papers and magazines, and radio stations, talked about it - all in very enthusiastic terms). But only those who had nothing against gays went to watch it, and many people I know just said "yeah, it was good. A bit too slow/long".

I don't know why France is seen as such a liberal country. The cliché of the French couple being composed of 3 persons is still alive (abroad). I guess that situation must have been rife at a time because of the unbearable machismo and sexism of French men (chasing other women because hey! that's what women are there for, and the wives getting fed up and deluding themselves that they might be happier with another male??).

France was one of the last European countries to grant women the right to vote, the right to contraception (then to FREE contraception), the right to abortion, the right to claim they had been raped, when they HAD been, without the Police laughing in their faces, the right to say they'd been raped by their husband and have it recognized as such (only 2-3 years ago).

On IMDb, some non-French Europeans were shocked that I could say France was still a homophobic country. Only one girl voiced her agreement: she was British and had just spent a year in France, and was amazed at how even STUDENTS could be so homophobic. She was right: I teach secondary (high school) and uni students, and we did have debates about same-sex couples/love this year, and the overwhelming majority are against gay marriage (with adoption of children).

Gays are ok in films here, especially American films, but 'NIMB'. The most popular French film picturing gays is "La Cage aux Folles", which figures screaming hysterical gays - the stereotypes straight males like to see, because... they are so different, aren't they.
 I even asked my local LGBT for figures, and could see that more Americans (!!) are in favour of gay marriage with adoption than French people! I am sorry to tell you, Kelda, that the British are even worse than the French on that one...

Ok, I'll stop here, but could go on a while, when I get started on this I cannot stop!

[littleguitar]

I think what Isabelle said about lesbianism's invisibility is really important.  Many people deny that female couples even really exsist in the same way male couples do because, since there is no penis involved in the sex, it isn't considered real sex.  When people were first starting to take notice of homosexuality, before the terms homosexual or gay even existed to lable it, men were really the only ones in the public eye or punnished because a relationship between two women was seen as a "friendship".  People had a hard time imagining it could even move beyond this.  Also, since women have always had the stigma of being "naturally" more caring etc., society thought  that, what we would now call lesbianism, was just normal female bonding.  It's really only when sex was attached to it that it became a problem.  What's interesting now is that many lesbians would say that they don't even have a language to describe what they do in the bedroom because sex is a male term that implies a penis... just something to think about.  But IMO, gay men are more accepted than gay women, possibly because of media exposure.  In many ways, lesbianism is still invisible.  Bisexuality even more so, many people, both gay and straight have trouble accepting bisexuality.

[isabelle]

Littleguitar: I have to agree with every single word!

[j.U.d.E.]

Believe me, where I live (France), same-sex couples are NOT socially acceptable, whether male OR female

What?!

Hmm.. I can't answer the original question, because as much as I think people seem to accept more a male-gay-couple than female, I keep hearing/reading that a women-couple is more acceptable...

Well, among the same-sex couples I know or have met, they were all male, except one back in the early 90s in the UK (actually that's a lie, I have met more lesbian couples since), I had a co-student who when I asked her whether she was already married (we were in our early 20s and she was wearing a wedding ring) she said yes and gave me a female name (her wife). I looked a bit surprised, because it was the first open lesbian I had come to know. In my time in Britain I 'came across' many more gay couples (gay or lesbian). It seemed to be no big deal at all.

Belgium even if a bit behind with many things, is quite forward with respect to the gay/lesbian-couple theme. Love it!

~ j U d E

[YaadPyar]

I think the reality of homosexuality, male or female, is problematic for most socieities.  However, the straight male fantasy of two women together is a prevalent one, though it is distant from any reality I know.  So, the image of women kissing or touching each other sexually is considered titillating, whereas the general perception of men doing the same is that it's offensive.

In that sense, women can get away with same sex physical intimacy to some degree more than men, at least in the US, but that's really in specific sexual context.  

[starboardlight]

From my perspective, gay and lesbians are accepted in equally limited amount, though in different way. Gay men are accepted by mainstream society as fashionable accessories. Every woman must have a gay best friend who will advise her on the best color for the season and will tell her if that latest hairdo will make her face look trimmer. Lesbian depictions are limited to heterosexual male fantasies. In both, the mainstream don't want to see either gay men or lesbians as fully human. Neither have been depicted as people with full lives and love, but rather are limited to stereotypes.

[littleguitar]

I agree Celeste, but I think it's that really specific sexual context that makes us think lesbianism is accepted when really it isn't.  With two beautiful women in a movie or porn flick, lesbianism is fine.  But if it's two real looking women going at it and wanting nothing to do with men, that's when our society tends to find it offensive.  How many times does a lesbian hear something like, "you just need a real man"... there is a really fine line, I think, when it comes to lesbianism about what will turn a man on and what will offend him.  And, concerning women, I think gay men tend to me more accepted by women than lesbians.  Obviously that isn't always the case, but it seems to be true a lot of the time.