Author Topic: TOTW 09/07: Did it seem like Jack was responsive to Randall's flirtatiousness?  (Read 20653 times)

Offline jstephens9

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You're right Lee that he didn't respond at the dance. But he didn't reject him either. And isn't that just as good as saying, hey, let's go for it?!?!?  :P

Remember, Jack flirted with the rodeo clown at the bar. Flirting was second nature for him. Meeting Ennis changed his behaviour for a while, but not for life.



Sorry Lee, but I don't agree that not rejecting someone outright can be taken as "hey, let's go for it." I don't believe the two are related. If someone doesn't clearly reject you I just don't think that means "yes." It could be that the person is simply being nice, not wanting to hurt someone's feelings, and hoping that they get the message of non interest without being blatant about it.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Here is a different question:

    If Jack divorced and moved up to Lightning Flat with Randall,  would he have made up some excuse to disappear for a week to go meet Ennis?

    "hey Randall,  I'm going down to Childress to see my son Bobby".  Then he goes camping with Ennis.


This is a really interesting question David!  My feeling is that if Ennis were to get in touch with Jack in this type of situation (or really any circumstance), Jack would go meet him.  I don't know that Jack would really be able to resist an invitation from Ennis.  Whether or not Jack would initiate invitations to Ennis in this type of circumstance somehow seems more complex to me.  I think Ennis would also go running to Jack under most circumstances.  Neither one really "knows how to quit" the other.

But, as we see from Ennis's reaction to Mexico... we know that Ennis would not react well to the idea of Jack living in Lightning Flat with Randall or any other fellow.  I think Jack would have to hide the fact that he was living with Randall entirely for a relationship to persist with Ennis.  So, the type of scenario you suggest would involve a lot of denial and sneakiness to be feasible at all.



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Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 09/07: Did it seem like Jack was responsive to Randall's flirtatiousnes
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2007, 03:39:48 pm »
There are parallels between this scene and the scenes of Jack and Ennis on the mountain. It's almost like the charity dance is a mini telling of Jack and Ennis, only with some things reversed or turned around, and parts played by other people.

At the beginning of the dance, Jack helps Randall when his truck was broken; at the end of their time on mountain, Ennis helps Jack when his truck is broken. LaShawn tells her background and how she wound up in Childress; Ennis tells his background and how he wound up on the mountain. LaShawn talks a blue streak to Jack; Ennis talks to Jack more than he's spoke in a year. With Ennis, Jack spills beans on himself. With Randall, Jack spills ashes on himself. Both spillings immediately followed a comment alluding to masculinity, one positive and the other negative -- "balls the size of apples," "husbands never dance with their wives." After that, Jack looks away while Ennis is washing (trying to resist), and Jack looks away when Randall proposes Roy Taylor's cabin (trying to resist?).



Offline southendmd

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Great topic of the week!

I love the "camera trick".  It took me several viewings to see it.  I suspect it was intentional, adding to the ambiguity. 

I found it interesting that Jack asks Lashawn to dance right after Lureen's comment that husbands never want to dance with their wives.  Jack looks at Lashawn ("wanna dance?"), then he does look at Randall, and says, "you mind?"

Lureen is then left at the table with Randall, and she looks away, exasperated, probably knowing Randall ain't gonna ask her to dance.  He's too busy looking at Jack.

Regarding the bench scene, I find Jack's response to Randall's proposition difficult to read.  I'm not sure if it's shock, he seems to have some internal dialogue though.

I'm puzzled by the nose-powdering line:  it seems so odd; is it just small talk, or is he communicating something else?

Offline BBM-Cat

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I've always thought that Jack was not flirting with Randall at the table, though I do think Randall thought for a split second that Jack was asking him to dance.

I've never heard anyone agree with me on this, but I think that when Randall flirts with Jack outside on the bench, Jack looks frozen with the shock of "OMG, am I that obvious that this new guy can tell I'm queer?" 
I do think (based on the "ranch fella" remarks of Mr. Twist, and Jack's own story about running around with the ranch foreman's wife) that Jack and Randall develop a sexual relationship, but how deep that relationship was, I don't know.  I still think he would have dropped him for Ennis in a flash, if Ennis had given him any hope, or just continued with Ennis as they were, seeing him as much as possible, and just not mentioning Randall.

I do agree with you on this Clarissa - that was one of my first thoughts as well, that Jack might be thinking 'is my sexuality that apparent?' Being propositioned by Randall IMO was a 'shock' to Jack for multiple reasons. Not the least of which, it caught him off guard and I believe he was used to being the pursuer, not the pursued. And, I believe as others have commented, he had immediate thoughts of Ennis interpersed with his initial reaction.
Six-word Stories:  ~Jack: Lightning Flat, lightning love, flat denied   ~Ennis: Open space: flat tire, tire iron?

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 09/07: Did it seem like Jack was responsive to Randall's flirtatiousnes
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2007, 04:27:07 pm »
I'm puzzled by the nose-powdering line:  it seems so odd; is it just small talk, or is he communicating something else?

Like Lureen's remark about men never dancing with their wives, it's a comment on Jack and Lureen's sex life. He's saying, "Why powder your nose if you're just going to go home and go to bed? There's nothing going at home in bed, that's for sure!"




Offline Fran

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.I'm puzzled by the nose-powdering line:  it seems so odd; is it just small talk, or is he communicating something else?

Because my mother frequently used the expression "Let's go powder our noses" when I was young as a euphemism for going to the ladies' room, I think it's just small talk, a way for the screenwriters to poke fun at how often women need to use the restroom and how long it takes them once they're in there.  We don't see how long Jack and Randall have been waiting for their wives.  Perhaps it was a long time.  Maybe Jack is thinking, Damn Lureen, what's taking her so long.  I want to get out of here.  I'm sick of always having to wait for her....  But instead he just comments, "Ever notice how a woman'll powder her nose before a party starts, and then powder it again when the party's over?  Why powder your nose just to go home to bed?"  Jack's a guy; he doesn't get the whole makeup routine.  Neither does Randall.

I think the conversation is just a way for the screenwriters to get the characters from trivial conversation to the heavy stuff, Randall's proposition of a weekend at Roy Taylor's cabin for just the two of them. 


Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 09/07: Did it seem like Jack was responsive to Randall's flirtatiousnes
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2007, 07:29:52 pm »
I do agree with you on this Clarissa - that was one of my first thoughts as well, that Jack might be thinking 'is my sexuality that apparent?' Being propositioned by Randall IMO was a 'shock' to Jack for multiple reasons. Not the least of which, it caught him off guard and I believe he was used to being the pursuer, not the pursued. And, I believe as others have commented, he had immediate thoughts of Ennis interpersed with his initial reaction.

Hi Elle and BBM-Cat,
This is a really interesting interpretation of the scene and Jack's physical response.  But, it's funny... I have tended to read the significance of the whole scene as being about Jack's strong "gaydar" and his ability to either read or draw-out other gay men.  I think Ennis is meant to be the most astonishing achievement in this regard... the fact that Jack was able to get Ennis to come out of his shell on Brokeback, etc. is of course one of the appeals of the relationship (I think from Ennis's perspective at least).  And, here again, Jack and Randall are able to figure each other out through subtle exchanges and glances at a dinner table with their wives present, etc.  It leaves the Jimbo exchange open for interpretation.  Jimbo appears to reject Jack completely, but I've heard discussions here and there where it's been suggested that Jack really did have an understanding that Jimbo might be interested in men but that Jimbo felt threatened by the public-ness of Jack's advance (in front of the bartender, etc.).

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 09/07: Did it seem like Jack was responsive to Randall's flirtatiousnes
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2007, 07:31:55 pm »
Hi Fran, I partly agree with what you just said. My comment before that was about the subtext, of course, not Jack's actual literal meaning. It didn't occur to me that Paul might be asking literally what Jack was talking about, perhaps not having heard the phrase as a once-common euphemism for going to the restroom. Yes, Jack was making small talk and using a common idiom of the day. And it's a way to carry the conversation along with small talk.  To me, it works just fine on that level.

But most if not all of the lines in the film carry multiple meanings, and I think this one serves a second purpose. Subtextually, I see the entire dance scene as full of subtle remarks -- often digs -- about sexuality, including sexual orientation, sexual activity and masculinity. Men never dance with their wives. Jack and Randall don't have a smidgen of rhythm between them. Randall isn't mechanical. He wouldn't listen to LaShawn if he were going deaf tomorrow. LaShawn spent more on clothes than she made at N.M., which is more than Randall ever will make. Then there's the question of who Jack's actually asking to dance and the underlying meaning of Randall's invitation.

To me, the nose-powdering remark is another one of those. Subtly, unconsciously, Jack is saying there's nothing going on in bed that's worth getting gussied up for.






Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 09/07: Did it seem like Jack was responsive to Randall's flirtatiousnes
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2007, 07:33:32 pm »
There are parallels between this scene and the scenes of Jack and Ennis on the mountain. It's almost like the charity dance is a mini telling of Jack and Ennis, only with some things reversed or turned around, and parts played by other people.

At the beginning of the dance, Jack helps Randall when his truck was broken; at the end of their time on mountain, Ennis helps Jack when his truck is broken. LaShawn tells her background and how she wound up in Childress; Ennis tells his background and how he wound up on the mountain. LaShawn talks a blue streak to Jack; Ennis talks to Jack more than he's spoke in a year. With Ennis, Jack spills beans on himself. With Randall, Jack spills ashes on himself. Both spillings immediately followed a comment alluding to masculinity, one positive and the other negative -- "balls the size of apples," "husbands never dance with their wives." After that, Jack looks away while Ennis is washing (trying to resist), and Jack looks away when Randall proposes Roy Taylor's cabin (trying to resist?).

And... I just want to say wow to this observation!! :o

I think this is a truly interesting way to see this scene.  So, is this an example of the "ink-blot" structure of the film?  Or a microcosm of the film?  Maybe microcosm is most accurate?



the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie