Author Topic: Cellar Scribblings  (Read 9898638 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Cellar Scribblings
« Reply #17180 on: June 02, 2021, 11:43:04 am »
Speaking of which, Chuck, do you pronounce bruschetta brusketa or brusheta? I learned on the first night of my first trip to Italy (from an American) that the former is correct, so I've been using it ever since. But I often have Americans either ignore my pronunciation or correct it, as if I pronounced it that way because I'd never heard the word spoken before.

 

Offline southendmd

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Re: Cellar Scribblings
« Reply #17181 on: June 02, 2021, 12:28:39 pm »
Speaking of which, Chuck, do you pronounce bruschetta brusketa or brusheta? I learned on the first night of my first trip to Italy (from an American) that the former is correct, so I've been using it ever since. But I often have Americans either ignore my pronunciation or correct it, as if I pronounced it that way because I'd never heard the word spoken before.

This is difficult for Americans.  We see "sch" (followed by i or e) and assume it's pronounced "sh", as in Schitt's Creek; whereas in Italian, "ch" (followed by i or e) is always pronounced "k". 

I usually remind people of how to pronounce "chianti"; the "ch" is always hard. 

Another difficult one is the word for "closed"--"chiuso".  Americans want to pronounce it "choozoh", whereas it's "kyoozoh".

Don't get me started on "panini"!  It's plural, and one sandwich is a "panino"!

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Cellar Scribblings
« Reply #17182 on: June 02, 2021, 12:34:43 pm »
Yes, I have that problem with my name. People are often trying to pronounce it Resha or Rechia (gross!). It's actually just a hard c. The name (from my ex) is actually Sicilian, not Italian and means river.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Cellar Scribblings
« Reply #17183 on: June 02, 2021, 12:41:01 pm »
This is difficult for Americans.  We see "sch" (followed by i or e) and assume it's pronounced "sh", as in Schitt's Creek; whereas in Italian, "ch" (followed by i or e) is always pronounced "k". 

I usually remind people of how to pronounce "chianti"; the "ch" is always hard.

Or you could remind them of how we pronounce school!  :laugh:



Offline southendmd

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Re: Cellar Scribblings
« Reply #17184 on: June 02, 2021, 02:01:41 pm »
Or you could remind them of how we pronounce school!  :laugh:

Sure!

school
schizophrenia
schedule
 
Schumann
Schitt's
Schoenberg

maybe depends on the origin?


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Cellar Scribblings
« Reply #17185 on: June 02, 2021, 02:14:57 pm »
Notice that Latino and Latina are now frequently referred to as Latinx. So that's one down -- a million to go. I'll take the next one.

Not necessarily. Apparently "Latinx" is controversial, especially among the people to whom it's supposed to apply. I just read something about this ... somewhere ... lately, but I can't remember where, so I can't provide a reference.   :(  I remember reading something like "Latinx" is popular among academics and some sexual minorities--I've seen journalists use it, too--but among others maybe not so much. Grammar and pronunciation are involved ( Is it "Latincks" or "Latin-ex"?). There was some question, too, about the use being "imposed" by people--like academics--who are outside the community. Since we're now supposed to refer to people the way they prefer, I suppose this could get quite messy,
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Cellar Scribblings
« Reply #17186 on: June 02, 2021, 02:20:42 pm »
Sure!

school
schizophrenia
schedule
 
Schumann
Schitt's
Schoenberg

maybe depends on the origin?

Of course, if you're British, it's "shedyool."  ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Cellar Scribblings
« Reply #17187 on: June 02, 2021, 03:16:35 pm »
Of course, if you're British, it's "shedyool."  ;D

Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?  ;D



Re Latinx, I do realize it's controversial. I think it's not just academics but younger Latinx people who use it.

But yes, in older generations I imagine it's less popular.

When I'm talking to someone I have to try to read the room. Generally I figure it's safer to be too PC than not PC enough. As for print, I'm not sure what AP is saying these days. Last I heard AP required "Indian" on first reference (for indigenous Americans). That, too, was at least at one point controversial, often by generations -- older people were fine with Indian. I'm not sure where that one's at these days.

Recently I wrote about a guy who preferred Mexican above the others, even though he was the third generation in the United States.

I was just glad when they opened the door to capitalized Black. Short, easy, readily identifiable and respectful.

Since we're now supposed to refer to people the way they prefer, I suppose this could get quite messy,

That's for sure. I just follow the guiding light of AP -- if there's any objection, I can blame it on them and say we're forced to follow those rules (which, of course, we are).






Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Cellar Scribblings
« Reply #17188 on: June 02, 2021, 04:05:58 pm »
Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?  ;D

There even are places where English completely disappears. In America they haven't used it for years.  ;D

Quote
Re Latinx, I do realize it's controversial. I think it's not just academics but younger Latinx people who use it.

A) I wish I could remember where I read that piece.  :(

B) I wish I could remember if it went into whether or not it's a generational thing.  ???

Quote
Last I heard AP required "Indian" on first reference (for indigenous Americans). That, too, was at least at one point controversial, often by generations -- older people were fine with Indian. I'm not sure where that one's at these days.

I think it still might be wise to work around that issue when you can. I remember Craig Johnson (author the Wyoming-set Longmire novels) say that his Cheyenne friends laugh when he calls them "Native Americans," but he didn't go into whether that was generational or not. My assumption has been he meant his generation, and he's just a few years younger than you and I.

Quote
I just follow the guiding light of AP -- if there's any objection, I can blame it on them and say we're forced to follow those rules (which, of course, we are).

Always good to have someone else to blame.  ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Sason

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Re: Cellar Scribblings
« Reply #17189 on: June 02, 2021, 04:38:33 pm »
No, they don't, thank God, because if they did I can see it potentially becoming a gender equity issue at some point. I'm not sure how, because I don't know enough French, Italian or German (or other European languages I don't speak at all) to know whether their seemingly arbitrary designation follows any pattern that might be deemed offensive -- say, if "science" is masculine and "housework" is feminine.

Those Anglo-Saxons were foresighted enough to neutralize nouns from the getgo and avoid trouble 1,500 years down the road.

Notice that Latino and Latina are now frequently referred to as Latinx. So that's one down -- a million to go. I'll take the next one.


Aprire lx finestrx. Done! Now just work on pronunciation.

Despite potentially supporting the patriarchy, languages with gendered nouns are that much harder to master. You have to learn the word and its gender. (Although English is considered hard to master for other reasons, like the variable pronunciation of particular spellings, e.g., "tough" "though" "ought," etc. -- I believe European languages are more consistent.)


Sonja (or Paul) do Scandinavian languages have gendered nouns?


 

Yes, Swedish does.

We have four genders: masculinum, femininum, neutrum and reale.

Masc and fem are fairly simple, they belong to nouns where it's fairly self-evident: girl, boy, woman, man etc. They don't really affect anything else.

Neutrum and reale are trickier, and must be hard to learn for a foreigner. I don't think there are any rules that determine which one of them a specific noun belongs to (I wouldn't know for sure since I've never studied Swedish as a foreign language).

Those two genders determine the pronouns and the adjective inflection. Maybe something else too that I can't think of right now.


Danish is similar to Swedish, whereas Norwegian is more complicated.

Düva pööp is a förce of natüre