Author Topic: Do You Support The Death Penalty?  (Read 166275 times)

Offline delalluvia

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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #111 on: October 20, 2007, 07:24:46 pm »
Changing the angle a little bit....

Having followed the discussion here from the sidelines, I've been put in mind of a couple of quotes by Sir Winston Churchill. No, he didn't speak about abortion, far as I know, but I'm drawing the analogy nevertheless. Here's the first one:

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

Replace "Democracy" with "Pro-choice" and "government" with "dealing with unplanned pregnancies", and you see what I'm getting at. In practical life, what would a strict so-called Pro-life solution lead to except an abundance of human tragedies? "Back to the knitting needles" - ie. unsafe and downright dangerous illicit abortions would flourish, with much greater risk to the mothers (especially poor mothers) and exactly the same outcome for the fetus as in legal abortions. Alternatively many children might be born into lives of misery or neglect (far from all children would be given up for adoption even if the mother would primarily have wanted an abortion), there would of necessity have to be penalties and punishment and social stigma and investigation of women who tried to circumvent the law through performing or having an abortion - whatever their reason for doing so. Raped girls and women would have to carry the reminder of the rape around for nine months at a in some cases not inconsiderable health risk to themselves.... and so forth and so on.  Is that really better? Better than showing each woman the respect of letting her make an informed decision and be legally in control of her own situation, her own body?

Even when taking at face value the pro-lifers' concern for the fetus as a human being with the full rights of a human being as the single ovverriding reason for their strict anti-abortion stance, I'd ask them to consider the following Churchill quote:

"However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #112 on: October 20, 2007, 07:45:15 pm »
Interesting twists on the points. to clarify, here are some responses

2) of course laws inhibiting drug (legal and illiegal) use, unlawful operations, unnecessary operations, etc are about "bodily sovreignty". and being compelled to work at a job or occupation or trade that one does not want to is the same thing. They exist because government believes people can't make the right choices. The inability to view child bearing as something other than "bodily sovreignty rights" is the bias that inhibits another view outside the rigid pro choice, any time, any place, any reason mentality, I think.
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This is a very trite argument I think...personally I have never heard of the government forcing a person to
remain in a job they hated in order to pay child support.  You have every right to change jobs...whenever.
You continue to bring the entire focus of this right into the realm of when or where a fetus becomes a
person..That is and will always be everyones individual decision.  As much as you want to make it a scientific
proof..It is like proving there is a god...You can never prove there is one to those who are non believers...and you cannot prove he doesnt exist either..its a philosophical question..not a factual one.. And as for the difficulties
that any woman goes thru before and after they choose, or dont choose to have an abortion..It has many
different questions to consider.  If you put societal and religious thoughts into the equation, it is only a more
difficult decision.  It is however usually the male dominated society that is telling women what and why they]
should not be allowed to have this choice..Starting with the Catholic churchs mandates...no abortions period..no birth control period, etc..it is a lot of the way it is carried forth.  It is thru teachings and further threats of hell and
damnation...All of these issues come to bear on her decision making.  She has enough to think about without all the rest of us getting the govt. involved...
      This always brings to mind the people that think the point of insemination  is the beginning of the
live or not live argument...  Ok then if that is the point of humaness, and it should not be allowed to be terminated.  Or discarded.  Why then do we not go one step further, and say that a man throwing his seed away is not the same thing.?  I just dont understand why people want or try to get involved in other peoples private
business.  And the Constitution itself gives us the right to "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.."  Isnt this
a part of that freedom.  It doesnt say unless, so and so is involved, or whenever others say its ok for you to do that.   Or are women supposed, no entitlement to that freedom...That they are unworthy, or not discerning enough to make these decisions on their own behalf..Along with their doctors...



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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #113 on: October 20, 2007, 09:44:11 pm »
Well, From everything that I have read ( I'll see if I can find exact statistics) very few abortions are preformed due to life threatening circumstances.
While I agree, that it is a womans body, a choice should have been made earlier as to wether or not to have sex. It is not the childs fault the mother or father for that matter doesn't want it.Why destroy an innocent life for that reason? I know, people are going to say what if the woman had no choice IE rape. Well, those acount for one tenth of one percent of all abortions according to the NRLC.
Again, as terrible as it is, is it the childs fault? SHould we go kill the children of the rapist for what he did? No!

I wonder how many people who are pro choice would want prostitution legalized. After all, it is a wpmans body!
I'm not trying to be mean or disrespetful. I am for full equality for women.I just think taking an innocent life is wrong!
Sorry if I made anyone angry. This is just my opinion andI repect everyones opinion even if I disagree.


Honestly, I think you would possibly look at this whole situation differently if you had a female body.  I don't honestly think you understand how threatening an unwanted pregnancy is to a woman.  I don't think that most men actually understand what a pregnancy means in terms of pain, potential danger, etc.

Furthermore, as to the issue of the decision to have sex in the first place... where does the responsibility of the straight male reside in all of this?  This puts an incredibly huge and unfair burden on a straight female.  As a gay woman, I actually often count my blessings that an unwanted pregnancy is something I don't have to worry about when I'm with a partner.  I don't honestly know how difficult this issue might be for straight women, but I can imagine that it's a huge stress when it comes to sexual activity.  It's something men never have to worry about and it's completely unfair for a man to impose his abstract set of rules on a woman who has to actually, physically bear the burden of those rules.  Only the woman should have the right to decide what happens to her own body during and after sexual intercourse.  And, again, even though I'm gay, I'll fight tooth-and-nail for the rights of straight women to control their own bodies... that's what this comes down to in my opinion.

The idea that a woman should be expected to carry the fetus of a rapist is really dismissive of what it means to be a victim of rape.  And, who is ANYONE to tell a rape victim that she has to do such a thing? The whole question of rape and what that means cannot be brushed aside so easily.

I also think raising the issue of prostitution in relation to the pro-choice issue is really offensive and off-topic.  Anyway, some prostitutes are men.

Equal rights for women, as you bring up, involve a woman having just as much control over her own body (not-pregnant or pregnant) as a man has over his.  Only a woman can make these decisions for herself... without the interference of the government or abstract, external ideals set down by other people who have nothing to do with her own life.  There are lots of women who would never have an abortion for lots of reasons.  And there are women whose lives depend on the option of having an abortion, for lots of reasons.  Again, true equal rights for women... if you believe that women have equal rights means that you trust them to make their OWN decisions.


And, for the record, as far as I'm concerned a fetus that is not-viable outside of a woman's womb is not a child and in no way has similar rights as the mother.

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #114 on: October 20, 2007, 10:16:18 pm »
Well, From everything that I have read ( I'll see if I can find exact statistics) very few abortions are preformed due to life threatening circumstances.
While I agree, that it is a womans body, a choice should have been made earlier as to wether or not to have sex. It is not the childs fault the mother or father for that matter doesn't want it.Why destroy an innocent life for that reason? I know, people are going to say what if the woman had no choice IE rape. Well, those acount for one tenth of one percent of all abortions according to the NRLC.
Again, as terrible as it is, is it the childs fault? SHould we go kill the children of the rapist for what he did? No!
With as many couples treying to adopt it seems like a no brainer to me.
When does the right of the child come into play here? It is not a painless procedure for the child.
Dr Bernard Nathenson, an abortinist, filmed the abortion of an 11wk old inborn child. The child tried to get away from the light and as the procedure started could be viewed in what can only be described as a scream from the pain of the procedure.
I don't understand how people who are against the death penalty can view this as ok. As to the death penalty an adullt made a concious decision to take another life knowing the consequences of that action. Death is the punishment for said actions. In an abortion, an innocent child is either dismembered and sucked into a specimin jar or sink or burnt with a saline solution and forced out the birth canal! Both are barberic and both are done only because the child is not wanted for whatever reason.
I wonder how many people who are pro choice would want prostitution legalized. After all, it is a wpmans body!
I'm not trying to be mean or disrespetful. I am for full equality for women.I just think taking an innocent life is wrong!
Sorry if I made anyone angry. This is just my opinion andI repect everyones opinion even if I disagree.


11weeks
HEART IS BEATING (SINCE 18-25 DAYS)
BRAIN WAVES HAVE BEEN RECORDED AT 40 DAYS
THE BABY SQUINTS, SWALLOWS, AND CAN MAKE A FIST
THE BABY HAS FINGERPRINTS AND CAN KICK
THE BABY IS SENSITIVE TO HEAT, TOUCH, LIGHT AND NOISE
THE BABY SUCKS HIS OR HER THUMB
ALL BODY SYSTEMS ARE WORKING
THE BABY WEIGHS ABOUT 1 OUNCE AND IS 2 1/2 TO 3 INCHES LONG
THE BABY COULD FIT COMFORTABLY IN THE PALM OF YOUR HAND




lovely. So you think a baby is a living full person inside a mother...yet you want that fully human baby to live for nine months inside a woman that HATES it. You want it born to know it is the product of its mother's shame and pain...and its father is a rapist?

and the woman has to spend nine months watching her body being violated? Breasts sagging, stretch marks, vomiting....only to have hovering over her the knowledge that at the END of the nine months she will have to go thru the worst pain humans experience?

this is the reason why rape has become a favorite tactic for militias in third world countries....rape, the violence that keeps on giving.
 


Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #115 on: October 20, 2007, 10:26:10 pm »
I think expecting a rape victim to carry the rapist's child with NO CHOICE in the matter (imagining a world where abortion would be dis-allowed to a rape victim) is simply re-victimization.


I also often wonder, from the perspective of people who are anti-choice... how far they'd be willing to go in forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies.  In an anti-choice world... should women who have abortions be sent to prison?  Should doctors be sent to prison?  If a pregnant woman was known to desire an abortion, should she be locked up for 9 months under constant supervision to make sure she carried the fetus to term to make sure she would be unable/not allowed to find ways to induce an abortion?  I really am curious about how extreme the measures would be from an anti-choice perspective.


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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #116 on: October 20, 2007, 11:03:12 pm »
I think expecting a rape victim to carry the rapist's child with NO CHOICE in the matter (imagining a world where abortion would be dis-allowed to a rape victim) is simply re-victimization.

Absolutely.

Quote
I also often wonder, from the perspective of people who are anti-choice... how far they'd be willing to go in forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies.  In an anti-choice world... should women who have abortions be sent to prison?  Should doctors be sent to prison?  If a pregnant woman was known to desire an abortion, should she be locked up for 9 months under constant supervision to make sure she carried the fetus to term to make sure she would be unable/not allowed to find ways to induce an abortion?  I really am curious about how extreme the measures would be from an anti-choice perspective.

Excellent point.  From what I've heard from my pro-life, anti-choice right wing friends - both men - they're all for imprisoning a pregnant woman for child endangerment if she so much as has a glass of wine or keeps smoking.

Of course, men can damage their sperm with their less than healthy life habits and impregnate a woman with their poor quality sperm and possibly add to a child's birth defects, but men have never wanted to put any restrictions on their behavior. 

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #117 on: October 20, 2007, 11:07:03 pm »
lovely. So you think a baby is a living full person inside a mother...yet you want that fully human baby to live for nine months inside a woman that HATES it. You want it born to know it is the product of its mother's shame and pain...and its father is a rapist?

and the woman has to spend nine months watching her body being violated? Breasts sagging, stretch marks, vomiting....only to have hovering over her the knowledge that at the END of the nine months she will have to go thru the worst pain humans experience?

this is the reason why rape has become a favorite tactic for militias in third world countries....rape, the violence that keeps on giving.

Ouch!  Awesome point, Jess.  This especially happens in areas where a woman pregnant out of wedlock instantly condemns her as unmarriagable and to 'damaged goods' status even though she was the victim, where abortion is not an easily available option and if a woman does choose to get one, is yet another black mark against her.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #118 on: October 20, 2007, 11:09:18 pm »
Ouch!  Awesome point, Jess.  This especially happens in areas where a woman pregnant out of wedlock instantly condemns her as unmarriagable and to 'damaged goods' status even though she was the victim, where abortion is not an easily available option and if a woman does choose to get one, is yet another black mark against her.

I also agree that this is a good point.  And a really sad and scary crime.
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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #119 on: October 21, 2007, 05:57:58 am »
As a follow-up to the last posts here...

A few of years back I watched a BBC documentary on the effects of the Catholic Church's ban on abortion *and* contraception, specifically in poor countries in Latin America. It made a strong impression on me and made a number of thought-provoking (to say the least) points - but what unquestionably made the most impression were the stories about the very young girls who had been raped and were subsequently denied abortion.

There was one young girl - she was as I recall 11 years old (possibly 10?), and her body clearly not developed enough to go through a pregnancy without severe risk to her life and health. She had been raped, and had become pregnant. Luckily she had parents who stood by her and fought for her (the father spoke for the family in the program). They had appealed for her to be given an abortion due to risk of her life, but was denied, as the country in question (Central America, I forget which country) strictly follows the Catholic view on this. Her case and request that she be granted an abortion went all the way to Rome and it really was "illuminating" (as in infuriating to the umpteenth degree) to watch this elderly smug-looking high cleric commenting on the case and explaining why this little girl should have been made to go through with the pregnancy. Should have been made to carry the child of her rapist and risking her life when giving birth to it.

Well, in that case the parents actually broke with the church and somehow managed to secure an abortion for their daughter. They were bitter, and spoke with condemnation of the church, - which is surely not an easy thing to do where they live.

The documentary also let us meet a small group of 14/15-year old girls from the same area. All the girls were mothers already. They were in a support shelter, - had previously been sexually abused by relatives (normally their fathers) - had become pregnant, and had had no option but to carry the child, their sibling - to term.

These are relevant stories IMO to consider before adopting a strict "Pro-life" stance.