Author Topic: Beans and Crazies by montana crows  (Read 20026 times)

Offline belbbmfan

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Re: Beans and Crazies by montana crows
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2007, 01:44:12 am »
I can agree with everyone here. Easy huh?  :)


Ok, Chapter 04 is where it turned into an S&M novel.  Didn't see that comin'.  :laugh:

I found it a little hard to believe Prazacz listened and jack told him what Ennis wanted done.  And then he gave him advice on it.  :o  (Ok, I just thought that was a little far fetched is all.)


I can see many folks mighta stopped reading here.  Back in April 2006 when this was written, most folks were lookin' for happy stories and alternatives at that time.  Although this has taken a direction I hadn't thought it would, I understand it, and am gonna stick with it.  It will be interesting to see if Ennis works this out or not.


Yes, i tend to skip these parts of the story, or read through them very fast. I don't quite 'get' this part of their relationship. But I don't worry too much about it. I love the realism of the tough ranch life. And they feel very 'canon' to me. Rough-mannered and rough-spoken.



SPOILER




And one of the reasons I will continue to read this story, is Joanna. I find her a very interesting character. I hope we can learn more about her and her history. I love it when an author creates a great OC.



*off to read chapter 70
'We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em'

Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: Beans and Crazies by montana crows
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2007, 01:45:43 am »
More Spoilers...

Ok, I've read through Chapter 07 for the evening.  After the initial shock of the S&M chapter  :laugh:, it's turned into a fantastic and well written story.  

I'm enjoying it very much.  Looking forward to continuing to read more.  I'm real hooked now!  :D

Offline nic

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Re: Beans and Crazies by montana crows
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2007, 02:48:57 am »
I can agree with everyone here. Easy huh?  :)

Yes, i tend to skip these parts of the story, or read through them very fast. I don't quite 'get' this part of their relationship. But I don't worry too much about it.  ....

I'm pretty much the same, but I'd really like to have a plausible explanation for the dark stuff.  We all know Ennis has a violent streak but this tends to be him lashing out becuase of his inner turmoil.  In B&C, it's not him lashing out but asking the most important person in his life to be violent towards him... so very puzzling. I can understand why Jack goes along with it, because he loves Ennis so will do it even though he doesn't know why.  I can't see M_C elaborating on it any further.  I don't think it's anything truly S&M-based, or even a religious self-flagellation thing.  I'm truly stumped, but granted it does give an intriguing angle to the story to muse over. 

Oh, & I agree that Joanna is an excellent OC.  I love to read great female characters.  I couldn't blame her for getting a little besotted with eithr of the guys & her reaction to inadvertently spotting them in flagrante was priceless !
Old Brokeback got us good and it sure ain't over

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Beans and Crazies by montana crows
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2007, 11:16:54 am »


Ok, Chapter 04 is where it turned into an S&M novel.  Didn't see that comin'.  :laugh:



Hi Eric,

Well, this is exactly what all the discussion here is about.  These "dark" moments pop up here and there in this story... sort of out of nowhere.  I really enjoy the vast majority of the chapters in this story except for the odd "dark" and S/M type moments.

You've now encountered the first example.

I'd really like to understand better what this implies about Ennis's character in this particular story.  And, unlike nic, I don't really understand why Jack goes through with it in these scenarios. 

But, again, this story is definitely well-worth reading and well-written.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline mariez

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Re: Beans and Crazies by montana crows
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2007, 01:01:09 pm »
And one of the reasons I will continue to read this story, is Joanna. I find her a very interesting character. I hope we can learn more about her and her history. I love it when an author creates a great OC.

Yes!  Joanna ranks as one of my favorite OCs ever.  There is so much to explore about her - and her presence, along with Grace's (and what a great job she's done developing her character) create some really interesting dynamics. 

I'd really like to understand better what this implies about Ennis's character in this particular story.  And, unlike nic, I don't really understand why Jack goes through with it in these scenarios. 

But, again, this story is definitely well-worth reading and well-written.

Yes, I would like to understand better, too.  But, as I've said, I hope that Grace's knowledge will now put an end to it. 

I agree with nic that these punishments are not truly S&M based - I wouldn't use that term to describe them.  There is punishment - but I don't see an element of enjoyment, sexual or otherwise.  Ennis may feel he deserves it or needs it or whatever, but it hasn't come through to me that he's enjoying it.  And Jack definitely is not enjoying any aspect of it.  I do think the latest interlude was a form of S&M - and while I don't mind that generally (I love TTTB, for example) - that one didn't really work for me.  But, I agree with all of you, these things don't take away from my overall enjoyment of a really excellent and well-written story.  I'm already anxious for the next chapter. 

Marie
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Beans and Crazies by montana crows
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2007, 01:53:00 pm »
 

I agree with nic that these punishments are not truly S&M based - I wouldn't use that term to describe them.  There is punishment - but I don't see an element of enjoyment, sexual or otherwise.  Ennis may feel he deserves it or needs it or whatever, but it hasn't come through to me that he's enjoying it.  And Jack definitely is not enjoying any aspect of it.  I do think the latest interlude was a form of S&M - and while I don't mind that generally (I love TTTB, for example) - that one didn't really work for me.  But, I agree with all of you, these things don't take away from my overall enjoyment of a really excellent and well-written story.  I'm already anxious for the next chapter. 

Marie


Hi Marie,

I think you raise a good point.  And S/M is probably not the right way to describe what's going on in B & C.  You're right that neither character seems to find pleasure in the activity, which to me, is why it's so disturbing.  As for Jack's participation... it's really hard to understand why he (or anyone) would go through with activities that seem so unhealthy for his partner.  I think Ennis's attitude towards these "punishments" is more in line with something like self-mutilation or cutting.  And, from the beginning Jack has seemed to recognize how distasteful this activity is.  I guess I can see him getting carried away by Ennis... but it's still hard to imagine how he could get himself to participate in these self-destructive, violent bouts.  It is definitely a good thing that Grace now might be able to intervene now that she knows.

And, I also agree that Grace and Joanna are great, very well-rounded characters.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 05:09:25 pm by atz75 »
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline mariez

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Re: Beans and Crazies by montana crows
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2007, 08:54:24 pm »
... I think Ennis's attitude towards these "punishments" is more in line with something like self-mutilation or cutting.  And, from the beginning Jack has seemed to recognize how distasteful this activity is.  I guess I can see him getting carried away by Ennis... but it's still hard to imagine how he could get himself to participate in these self-destructive, violent bouts.  It is definitely a good thing that Grace now might be able to intervene now that she knows.

Hi Amanda,

SPOILERS






Yeah, I'd have to agree with your self-mutilation and cutting analogy.  It seems to me (and I'm going to have to do a re-read on the most recent chapters to get the details) that after Grace gave Ennis hell over how much he was hurting Jack with these punishments, I think Ennis and Jack had a talk about it - and Jack was really honest with Ennis for the first time about what it was taking out of him. I hope more discussions along that line - along with Grace's intervention - will help.  Maybe once they stop the punishments, and Ennis finds a healthier way of dealing with his issues, they can have more discussions and we'll get a little more insight.

I'm worried about Eric, too, in Vietnam.  Wonder when Joanna will be getting another letter. 

Marie
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline nic

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Re: Beans and Crazies by montana crows
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2007, 09:03:30 pm »
Yes, the self-harming analogy is the closest but it doesn't add up for me as in my understanding self-harming occurs mainly either for attention-seeking to a serious emotional problem or as a distraction from the turmoil that problem is causing within.  I can't see that it would involve directly reaching out to someone else, as in B&C, unless this Ennis' communication problems are really that messed up - which is always a possibility.  Ennis is always such a complex character to me!
Old Brokeback got us good and it sure ain't over

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Beans and Crazies by montana crows
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2007, 09:53:16 pm »
Yes, the self-harming analogy is the closest but it doesn't add up for me as in my understanding self-harming occurs mainly either for attention-seeking to a serious emotional problem or as a distraction from the turmoil that problem is causing within.  I can't see that it would involve directly reaching out to someone else, as in B&C, unless this Ennis' communication problems are really that messed up - which is always a possibility.  Ennis is always such a complex character to me!

Yes, the fact that Ennis has wanted to involve Jack in the activity is very, very strange.  I agree.  Complex indeed.


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline nic

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Re: Beans and Crazies by montana crows
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2007, 12:45:01 am »
I had more or less been glossing over these darker aspects of B&C but these recent posts have got me pondering & I have come up with two ideas that could represent a potential explanation.  However, I have commited the cardinal sin of not going back to rigorously research all the source material (ie re-read) & so these ideas are nothing more than clutching at straws in the asbsence of anything else.  I’ll stick them here FWIW.

First – Ennis has a guilt complex causing inner pressure, from jilting Alma, from being a sinner, from being queer, etc  Although he loves Jack completely, at some subconscious & mean level he also sees Jack as the cause of this inner turmoil (I got this from the cannon Ennis at the lake scene; “it’s cos of you….”).  He knows to release the inner pressure he needs a violent outlet so by asking Jack to dispense this, he gets his outlet & eases that mean internal voice by knowing that it is also punishing Jack as it hurts Jack to do it.  Ennis is not aware of this complex explanation though.

Second – similar to above but with a more self aware Ennis.  He has the inner turmoil & knows he needs the physical outlet, hence the “accidents” he’s been having around the ranch – tearing his hand on fencing, etc  He realizes this is not enough of an outlet & can’t let himself be more careless in case it ends up more seriously & he ends up badly hurt so can’t work on the ranch (or worse).  If that happened, it would end up hurting Jack by causing all sorts of hassle.  He also realizes he can’t go off into the town & get into random fights, as that would certainlyl ook odd.  So he reaches out to Jack to mete out the violence on him, as he thinks Jack would want to help him out & it also imposes a control valve, ie he knows Jack wouldn’t go too far –even though he’s aware it is hard on Jack, at least it means his feelings are dealt with, which is better for the both of them & the relationship, & Ennis remains in one piece.

I certainly think that whatever the reasons, then Ennis is not doing it out of conscious maliciousness towards Jack.  I would also like to think there is an actual explanation as why else would the author throw this in?  Quite amusingly this fic is often referred to as a Utopian Ranch Fic yet these episodes are definitely not utopian!
Old Brokeback got us good and it sure ain't over