Author Topic: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?  (Read 6337 times)

Offline David In Indy

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Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« on: October 17, 2007, 07:41:26 pm »
I think the world has forgotten how to forgive. Or at least I think it's true in many cases.


In the following video, we see several examples of extreme hurtful acts against another person. Would you be able to forgive so easily and readily? Is our world losing it's capacity to love and to forgive others for their transgressions?

(video clip is about 7 minutes)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awqPzXXs_7k



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injest

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2007, 07:47:22 pm »
I don't forgive....not for major stuff. Don't like to set myself up to be hurt again.

well, for most people. Some that I have a previous relationship I can forgive SMALL things..

this actually is not as simple as I thought at first!

 :laugh: :laugh:

karen1129

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2007, 08:00:21 pm »
I do forgive..............   for myself.

Karen

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2007, 08:02:55 pm »




      I believe it can and is done.  But not all things can be forgiven....by every one..    I know I do it in a
  lot of cases.  But eventually its difficul t to forgive someone that continues to do the thing over and over
  and doesnt even acknowledge the things they have done...IT HARKS BACK to fool me once shame on
  you, fool me twice, shame on me.!!



     Beautiful mind

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2007, 08:04:54 pm »
Sometimes I think people who hurt others are often hurting themselves, and this is why they do it. I think this was one of the messages from this particular scene in the movie.  And I think it's important to break that chain; that vicious circle. People sometimes hurt us. Lord knows I've been hurt in the past for various reasons. But I've also found that often the person who hurt me is hurting too. Maybe even worse than the pain they inflicted in me.

In forgiveness we also free ourselves. And if anyone has seen the movie "The Color Purple" we see Celie becoming freed by her forgiveness. She forgave Shug, and in doing so they became close friends, saving each other from much future pain. A sort of team; helping each other through the trials of life. This would never had been possible without Celie's forgiveness.

We also free ourselves when we forgive because we no longer play that "tape" over and over in our minds. It takes a lot of effort to remain angry at someone. Sooner or later the hurt begins to fade, but if we refuse to let go and forgive, we work hard to maintain that level of anger. And if the person refuses to accept our forgiveness, the problem is now squarely on THEM; not us. We have freed ourselves and can now move on. However, they will remain mired in hate, and probably hurt too.

It is difficult to forgive. But I think the world is quickly turning into a place that refuses to forgive. Look at the media. They are always looking for excuses to shoot others down. They find the very worst in someone, exploit it and then air it around the world as a sick form of entertainment. Look at the nastiness on the internet. There are so many people saying many awful and hurtful things to others as they sit safely behind their computers in total obscurity. I'm glad we have a friendly forum here where these sorts of things rarely happen. Others are not so fortunate.

If only we could remember to be like Celie, and just forgive. The power of forgiveness can be huge if only we remembered to use it.  :)
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injest

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2007, 08:08:57 pm »
hmmm. I don't think that forgiveness works like that all the time, David. I wish I could be as kind and good as you but I tend to want to hit people back....

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2007, 08:14:46 pm »
I don't forgive....not for major stuff. Don't like to set myself up to be hurt again.

well, for most people. Some that I have a previous relationship I can forgive SMALL things..

this actually is not as simple as I thought at first!

 :laugh: :laugh:

It's a good question isn't it Jess?

I inadvertently hurt someones feelings today and I didn't mean to. They felt I was criticizing them and I wasn't. They asked for my opinion and I offered it in the most gentle way I could. They recoiled at me and then told me I was no longer their friend. I told them I was sorry and they refused to forgive me. And I feel very hurt now.

On the drive home, I kept thinking about the movie The Color Purple, and particularly the scene I posted up above. I guess this is why I asked the question. Is the whole world like this now? I never thought this person would react like this. They have criticized me numerous times, and I always tried to view their criticism as helpful information. But apparently it's different when I do it. Even when I try to be as kind as possible as I do it.  :'(

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injest

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2007, 08:18:41 pm »
It's a good question isn't it Jess?

I inadvertently hurt someones feelings today and I didn't mean to. They felt I was criticizing them and I wasn't. They asked for my opinion and I offered it in the most gentle way I could. They recoiled at me and then told me I was no longer their friend. I told them I was sorry and they refused to forgive me. And I feel very hurt now.

On the drive home, I kept thinking about the movie The Color Purple, and particularly the scene I posted up above. I guess this is why I asked the question. Is the whole world like this now? I never thought this person would react like this. They have criticized me numerous times, and I always tried to view their criticism as helpful information. But apparently it's different when I do it. Even when I try to be as kind as possible as I do it.  :'(



aw Sweet David!!

{{{}}}

don't take it so personally....sounds to me like maybe they were having a bad day and just struck out at you. I know you try to be kind to everyone around you.

who knows what is going on in other people's heads? I can barely figure out what is going on in MINE...

{{{{{{{David}}}}}}}}

I love you!! and I think you are WONDERFUL!!

don't you let someone in a bad mood bother you...it will be better tomorrow...

karen1129

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2007, 08:26:24 pm »
Like David said, I believe we have to forgive those who hurt us for our own healing.
Doesn't mean we have to like that person , or be around them anymore, but I
I believe you need to forgive for yourself. 
You can spend a lot of time hating someone and that person doesn't even know it. Or care.

My motto is...................   forgive, forget and move on.
Letting go of that hate or hurt is a very freeing experience and
positive draws people to you .

K

Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2007, 08:50:57 pm »
I come from a long line of grudge holders. I hold some of their grudes yet, but I try not to add to them. I think if you forgive someone then you do not become a victim of the perceived wrong they have done to you.
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2007, 12:41:41 am »
I always try to forgive and forget.  Usually I'm pretty successful with the forgiving part if I can put the person out of my mind and out of my life (if the offense is serious enough) but I find I struggle with forgetting.  My good opinion once lost is usually never again regained in the same measure.  I would never strike out or demean them but I would keep my distance if I could not avoid them altogether.

I'd like to believe that people are not malicious, that sometimes things are just mistakes, poor judgement, a miscalculation, a misunderstanding or personal, cultural or lifestyle differences but one hurt to many has taught me that there are some people in the world who are just plain mean for no good reason other than it gives them pleasure to cause others pain or problems.  I am especially offended by the sneaky ones,  those who do so hiding behind someone or something else, or pretending to be someone they are not instead of owning their actions and opinions.


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injest

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2007, 12:48:53 am »
I always try to forgive and forget.  Usually I'm pretty successful with the forgiving part if I can put the person out of my mind and out of my life (if the offense is serious enough) but I find I struggle with forgetting.  My good opinion once lost is usually never again regained in the same measure.  I would never strike out or demean them but I would keep my distance if I could not avoid them altogether.

I'd like to believe that people are not malicious, that sometimes things are just mistakes, poor judgement, a miscalculation, a misunderstanding or personal, cultural or lifestyle differences but one hurt to many has taught me that there are some people in the world who are just plain mean for no good reason other than it gives them pleasure to cause others pain or problems.  I am especially offended by the sneaky ones,  those who do so hiding behind someone or something else, or pretending to be someone they are not instead of owning their actions and opinions.

*Jess giving a standing ovation!!*

you stated exactly how I feel, Dottie. Those sneaky people...they are an alien breed. I just can't think like that...


Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2007, 02:01:42 am »
*Jess giving a standing ovation!!*

you stated exactly how I feel, Dottie. Those sneaky people...they are an alien breed. I just can't think like that...



{{{{Jess}}}} I knew there was a reason I liked you girlfriend  :-*
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Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2007, 02:18:54 am »



          Maybe we could set up a scenario.. you have someone who hurts you over and over, and you keep
letting it go and letting it go.  They do not even acknowledge it that they have done anything wrong..So you continue to take all the blame for the difficulties.  You forgive, and even if you dont think you have done anything
wrong..Apologize over and over...Then that person tells you that if you would stop doing that, you wouldnt
have to keep apologizing...Are you still supposed to keep apologizing..and forgiving, when you are repeatedly
being hurt...?



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Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2007, 02:28:33 am »


          Maybe we could set up a scenario.. you have someone who hurts you over and over, and you keep
letting it go and letting it go.  They do not even acknowledge it that they have done anything wrong..So you continue to take all the blame for the difficulties.  You forgive, and even if you dont think you have done anything
wrong..Apologize over and over...Then that person tells you that if you would stop doing that, you wouldnt
have to keep apologizing...Are you still supposed to keep apologizing..and forgiving, when you are repeatedly
being hurt...?

No!  The scenario you describe Janice is one where I would definitely feel the need to excise this person from my life.  People like that, at best are not self aware, at worst they are toxic.
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Offline Lynne

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2007, 02:44:15 am »
It depends...Forgive and Forget is best for everyone, IMO, but sometimes it's hard.  ??? ???
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Offline souxi

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2007, 04:21:34 am »
Good question David. It really depends on what the other person has done I suppose. I can forgive sometimes, but some things I just can,t. There is really only one person in this world who I will NEVER forgive. If that makes me a bad person, then so be it. Some things are just unforgiveable.

Offline Karan13

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2007, 04:09:50 pm »

Hey David,
               This is a hard one , i am a soft , loving person i will help anyone i can , sometimes i hate myself for this , as i have been used and taken advantage of because of this . This is down to the heart and mind really , if someone says sorry i will forgive them , but i will not necessarily forget what they have done especially if it is really hurtful , my mind will forgive them but mt heart may not , and so even if i think i have made peace and forgave someone and told myself i will forget about it , in my heart i may not `Really Feel` that i have.
     
I don`t know if this makes sense. I agree with comments about sneeky people i dislike those completely. but if i found someone who i disliked , i knew disliked me equally , sad alone in need of help i don`t think i could turn my back on them.

I don`t know if this makes me sound like an idiot or a saint but thats me . x



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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2007, 09:06:51 pm »
Hey David,
               This is a hard one , i am a soft , loving person i will help anyone i can , sometimes i hate myself for this , as i have been used and taken advantage of because of this . This is down to the heart and mind really , if someone says sorry i will forgive them , but i will not necessarily forget what they have done especially if it is really hurtful , my mind will forgive them but mt heart may not , and so even if i think i have made peace and forgave someone and told myself i will forget about it , in my heart i may not `Really Feel` that i have.
     
I don`t know if this makes sense. I agree with comments about sneeky people i dislike those completely. but if i found someone who i disliked , i knew disliked me equally , sad alone in need of help i don`t think i could turn my back on them.

I don`t know if this makes me sound like an idiot or a saint but thats me . x





Hi Karan!!  :D

Your comments make perfect sense to me! I'm so glad to see you posting here again. I hope you stick around. I miss you when you're not here with us.  :'(

We sure did have some fun over on IMDb a couple of years ago, didn't we? And we weren't very forgiving to the trolls either. But then, they didn't deserve our forgiveness.  >:(

 :D :D :D
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2007, 09:09:43 pm »
I almost alway think that I've forgiven... but the more I look at myself the more I realize that I really do hold grudges despite my best intentions.  I also have a horrible habit of being a bridge-burner.
 :-\

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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2007, 09:12:15 pm »
I almost alway think that I've forgiven... but the more I look at myself the more I realize that I really do hold grudges despite my best intentions.  I also have a horrible habit of being a bridge-burner.
 :-\



I've burned a few bridges in my lifetime too Amanda. And I ALWAYS end up regretting it later.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2007, 11:57:59 pm »
I almost never forgive and why?

The people who have hurt me and/ormine the majority of the time have done nothing to deserve my forgiveness.  They're almost never sorry for what they've done to hurt me, most never apologize or show any compassion for my pain or remorse.

So why do they deserve my forgiveness?

I understand sometimes why people do what they do, but if they're adults - and they almost always are - they are in complete control of their lives and actions, so that makes what hurt they cause and their blithe attitude about it even more despicable.

injest

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2007, 12:09:13 am »
I almost never forgive and why?

The people who have hurt me and/ormine the majority of the time have done nothing to deserve my forgiveness.  They're almost never sorry for what they've done to hurt me, most never apologize or show any compassion for my pain or remorse.

So why do they deserve my forgiveness?

I understand sometimes why people do what they do, but if they're adults - and they almost always are - they are in complete control of their lives and actions, so that makes what the hurt they cause and their blithe attitude about it even more despicable.

yes, that is what chaps me about forgiveness...all the aggressor has to do is say "Hey sorry about that" and they skip off scot free....while the victim is left to pick up the pieces...(AND gets hassles from people telling them they need to forgive "do it for yourself')

bah humbug!

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2007, 12:10:31 am »


        Good to see you back Delalluvia..how was the trip?/



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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2007, 12:18:19 am »

        Good to see you back Delalluvia..how was the trip?/

Thanks.  A report on my trip will follow shortly on the thread I opened "An American Girl in Paris"  :)

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2007, 01:11:18 am »
yes, that is what chaps me about forgiveness...all the aggressor has to do is say "Hey sorry about that" and they skip off scot free....while the victim is left to pick up the pieces...(AND gets hassles from people telling them they need to forgive "do it for yourself')

bah humbug!

I always feel better once I forgive someone Jess. It makes me feel free. And even if they don't accept my forgiveness, I know I've done my part, and it's all I can do.

And I don't think forgiving someone necessarily means we should forget what the person did to us. It's always good to forgive and forget when possible, but sometimes it just ISN'T possible. There's no reason I should be foolish when I forgive. If I know this person will probably do the same thing to me in the future, I can forgive him or her for what they did to me, and at the same time remain wary from that point on.

For example, if someone steals some money out of my wallet, I can forgive the person, but I would probably be a fool if I continued to leave my wallet laying on the table unguarded while they are in the same room. See what I mean?

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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2007, 05:21:40 am »
I think I'm reading different definitions of what forgiveness means.

My father was a terrifying, violent asshole when I was a child.  I hated him for years, long after he died when I was 14.  About 10 years ago, I grew in my perspective of his situation - he was  terrified, lonely, a bitter atheist, prescription-drug-abusing, always worried about money, treated coldly by his own mother (probably for good reason), and a sex-obsessed misogynist with no male friends.  If I had set myself up in that kind of situation, I would have been a raging, furious, uncontrollable asshole too. 

When I got to that understanding, my hatred of him evaporated, and was replaced by a pity and even a compassion.  It doesn't mean he didn't make my childhood a nightmare, and it sure doesn't mean I'm not still living with the consequences to this day, BUT it does mean that I'm not poisoned by all that ill-feeling toward him putrifying inside of me anymore.  And most of the PTSD effects seem to have melted away (I think).  It was definitely a miracle to have that shift.  And after a few years, I now see that that's a kind of forgiveness.

My mother was an active alcoholic while I was growing up, but mostly my ally, much, much better than my father.  But forgiveness for all her neglect of me didn't come til I myself became a mother.  As most of you know, I make a really big deal out of being as good a mother to my daughter as I can be.  And one day it dawned on me, that even being a MEDIOCRE mother must have been a huge amount of effort for my own mother - she's basically very self-absorbed, and back when I was growing up she was a single mother, working full time during the day, and drinking, smoking and who knows what many evenings.  Another thing that has helped me release my hostility toward her is standing back, now, as an adult, and seeing how often she is inconsiderate to others.  For most of my life I took very personally how she treated me.  Come to realize, that's the way she IS.  Yeah, it hurts to have a mommy like that, but Jesus H., it's liberating to realize it's not about ME.  Ya know?  I think I'm only about halfway toward forgiveness with her, or maybe even less, but what relief I've had makes me want more.

Finally, there's this great quote, I don't know where it's from, "Resentment is like taking poison and expecting the OTHER person to die."  That fits exactly for me.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2007, 02:04:26 pm »
Gosh, what sad stories people have.  :'( :'( :'(

Thank you guys for the courage to open up and share them.

I can't speak for Jess of course, but the assumption is made by some people is that if someone else hurt you, and you're angry at them and can't forgive them, that you're somehow obsessed with that anger and resentment and you're letting it eat you up inside.

This is a mistaken assumption.  Yes, I'm sure some people are forever reviewing slights and hurts done to them and seethe about it, but not everyone does.

Anger and resentment are strong emotions, I agree, but they're no less controllable than love is. 

Love is another strong emotion.

If someone was madly in love with someone else, sighing and mooning over them like teenagers do, lying abed and daydreaming about them like Victorian heroines or modern people on an indulgent day, I certainly wouldn't consider this a personality fault and tell them they need to "get over it" and not let it 'eat them up'.  I would figure the height of the emotion would pass and it would eventually settle and morph into something less dramatic.

Anger and resentment are no different.

Yes, I'm angry with the people who hurt me, I resent them for it.  Do I think about them all the time?  Am I eaten up with envy and fury and stalk the world like an avenging superhero?

Fuck no.

If something jogs my memory about them,  I can't say that I recall their memory with sad fondness or regret because time did nothing to change what they did to me.

I'm still just as happy and enjoying life and having new relationships all the time even while still retaining my anger toward this particular person.  What they did to me was wrong then and it's still wrong today.  Why would time change that?

Holding a grudge or anger toward people who have hurt us is not the Biblical bane we've all been taught by society or Sunday school.  It's a matter of managing one's emotions.

The Jewish people certainly didn't forget or forgive the Nazis who escaped in the confusion of the post WWII world.  I certainly support them in hunting down those who hurt them and bringing them to justice.

What I find strange is that people who have hurt you like to forget that they did so.  So years later when you meet again, they like to pretend your past together was happy and you parted best of friends.   >:( >:(

Strange how my memories differ from theirs.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 05:33:09 pm by delalluvia »

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2007, 02:59:01 pm »
I find that if I forgive someone, it frees me to move on to other things.   Holding a grudge is only negative energy that will weigh me down.

It doesn't mean that I leave myself open to be "taken" again by that person, but why waste the energy on anger?


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

injest

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2007, 07:24:36 am »
Thank you Del. You always state things I think so much clearer than I could!!

 :laugh:

here is the thing. To me, just dropping and shrugging off injury shows you lack true feeling for other people. I CARE how other people feel. And that includes how they feel about me. It bothers me to think that I have upset someone. I am told that I apologize too much (huh, Roland?  :laugh:) but I would rather apologize unnecessarily than just shrug off someone and say "Oh well, too bad so sad" and dance off having a good time.

conversely, I feel MY feelings are important too. I am a human being, and for someone to cause me harm and then pretend they didn't....well that indicates to me that that person lacks something very profound. And that person is a person I would avoid. I don't wish them harm. Don't care what they are doing....just don't want them in my life.

I prefer people who are truly compassionate and feeling in my life.

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2007, 07:58:35 pm »
I forgive and forget!  You have to let things go or they will slowly eat you alive.  The other person has forgotten all about it and you're left stewing in your own juices.

Get angry ..... rant and rave ..... sulk for a bit ... then let be ..

Susie 


Hiya Susie!  I have to say, I agree with you.

I think a lot of times, when we hold a grudge, the one we are holding a grudge against is just going about their life, not even thinking about it, so why give them that power?


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2007, 09:46:04 pm »
I forgive and forget!  You have to let things go or they will slowly eat you alive.  The other person has forgotten all about it and you're left stewing in your own juices.

Get angry ..... rant and rave ..... sulk for a bit ... then let be ..

Susie 

What?  And let them get away with it?  Much much better to keep their shitty behavior alive in the rounds of talks and friends so any one you know that might meet them in the future will know what a shit they can be.   ;D ;D

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2007, 10:47:24 pm »
Don't be so hard on yourself Jess, it isn't bad Karma nor does it lower you to their level to expect nor enjoy the fact that they will get what's coming to them.  YOU did nothing wrong.

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2007, 03:42:20 pm »
Holding on to grudges and hate only hurts you.
My Granny used to say that hate only destroys the vessel that carrys it!
"The biggest obstacle to most of us achieving our dreams isn't reality, it's our own fear"

"Saint Paul had his Epiphany on the road to Damascus, Mine was on Brokeback Mountain"

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2007, 07:04:28 pm »
Holding on to grudges and hate only hurts you.
My Granny used to say that hate only destroys the vessel that carrys it!

Sure, if you let it eat you up.  If you can control it - like you do love (remembering an old love takes no more energy than remembering an old someone who hurt you). - then it's no problem whatsoever.

No matter how many old wives say otherwise.  ;)

Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Do you forgive or do you hold a grudge?
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2007, 02:27:12 am »
The preacher's Sunday sermon was Forgive Your Enemies.
He asked, "How many of you have forgiven your enemies?"
About half held up their hands.

He repeated the question.
Now about 80% held up their hands.


He then repeated his
question again. All responded,
except one elderly lady.

"Mrs Jones, are you not willing to forgive your enemies?"
asked the preacher.

"I don't have any," she replied.

"Mrs Jones, that is very unusual. How old are you?"

"Ninety- three," she replied.

"Mrs Jones, please come down in front and tell the
congregation how a person cannot have an enemy
in the world." asked the preacher.

The little sweetheart of a lady tottered down the aisle, and
said, "It's easy, I just outlived all those bitches."
Life is not a dress rehearsal