Do You Believe in Marriage?

[Brown Eyes]

This question is meant to be about your feelings on marriage as a general institution and is not specifically meant to be about the issue of gay marriage.  However, if you have strong feelings about the issue of gay marriage, please feel free to express them here.

To you, is marriage...

A romantic ideal?

An oppressive, patriarchal institution that should go the way of the dinosaurs?

Mostly about social pressure?

A stuffy convention?

Necessary as an expression of true love between partners?

Irrelevant to the state of true love between partners?

Something you aspire to... or dream about happening to you one day?

Something you dread?

Important in raising children?

Unnecessary to raising a happy, successful child?

Something that seems to provide personal security or stability, but not necessarily personal fulfillment?

Etc?

Are you currently married or divorced and have strong feelings about the institution of marriage?

How do women view this issue vs. men?

I'm really curious to hear the views of BetterMostians on this really big topic.

[Brown Eyes]

I'll add to this question too... has Brokeback changed or impacted your views on marriage?

[delalluvia]

Do I 'believe' in marriage?

I don't have to, it exists whether I believe in it or not. 

I think you mean if we support marriage as an institution.

I do, so long as you're going to have kids or share property.  If not, then I see no reason for it.

[Brokeback_Dev]

Growing up and seeing the sick abusive marriage my parents presented as a marriage, I decided long ago that i would never get married and have kids..At least thats what I thought.

Eventually I did want a child, but still didnt want to be married, and I did that I wanted to stay with the dad but he didnt want to stay with me   

I've been married to my husband now for 13 years and still very much in love.  Ours is not an abusive, sick thing I was trained to believe it to be... My husband is kind, gentle, caring, generous, and very loving.  Being married is the best thing that ever happened to me.  Security, stability, love, honor, respect, happiness. 

Its not a fairy tale, but I think we are happy.  Im in it for the long run too.  I waited... i didnt get married till my early mid 30's.  I wanted to make sure it was the real thing and would last...   His parents were married for 53 years.  Mine well they eventually went their separate ways.. 

I believe that when two people take those vows and get legally married, from my experiences with relationships, it gives them a reason to work harder and give and take.  Get along and stay.  Its too easy to walk away when there's nothing binding you together.  Marriage is a good reason to stay together and work through your problems and not walk away.

Has Brokeback changed my views on marriage?  Well yes, for gays and lesbians to have the right to get married legally in the eye of the law.  Alma and Ennis werent meant to be married and neither was Lureen and Jack Twist.   Jack and Ennis should have married each other.  Unfortunately Ennis was too worried about the men with tire irons, and for good reason giving the time and place and for what happened to Earl. 

I think there is more acceptablity of gay relationships today.  I've seen the differences in my life..  If gays and lesbians could be legally married then insurance wouldnt be an issue nor estate. Nor any legal arrangement that the married couple has to deal with.  Im not well enough versed on the topic to post much about it, but I do agree in same sex marriage same rights to raise children.

[delalluvia]

I'll add to this question too... has Brokeback changed or impacted your views on marriage?

No, my feelings on marriage have been the same for some time, BBM didn't change it.

[Brown Eyes]

In using the word "believe" I mean to ask about your own, personal strong convictions and opinions on what marriage is or means and whether or not it's a worthy institution.  I think a lot of people think of marriage as a moral/ ethical thing so I think the word "believe" works.

I personally don't believe in marriage.  And, I have fairly strong opinions about it (at least as far as decisions about my own life go...).  The ironic thing, that I even have difficulty explaining and articulating to myself is that while I don't believe in marriage... I also DO believe in gay marriage.  I guess if marriage exists it really must exist as an option for both gay people and straight people.  But, in a more ideal scenario from my perspective... marriage as an institution would not be necessary.  I do think it's mostly a patriarchal institution and aspects of the history of marriage are actually pretty scary/ disheartening.  And, I think in many places around the world today marriage is still used as an oppressive tool to suppress women.

I do think that permanent commitment between partners is wonderful and romantic.  But, I don't think that marriage is necessarily the best expression of this.  And I think true love exists beyond even the realm of more general commitment.  I suspect that some/many of the greatest real-life love stories (i.e. Brokeback-type stories) exist well outside the realm of marriage.

[delalluvia]

In using the word "believe" I mean to ask about your own, personal strong convictions and opinions on what marriage is or means and whether or not it's a worthy institution.  I think a lot of people think of marriage as a moral/ ethical thing so I think the word "believe" works.

OK, I was taking you literally.  Marriage is a pretty solid legal and ritual act.  Whether people believe it's a moral/ethical thing is a personal feeling and doesn't reflect on the legal act at all.  You can believe you have a soul mate, or that the gods/fate joined you together or that you've been together in many previous incarnations, but when it comes down to the brass tacks, it is a 'please sign at the bottom of this marriage license' act.  You can be married religiously or in your hearts, but the State won't recognize your marriage, won't extend you the rights, privileges and benefits unless you sign on the dotted line.

I personally don't believe in marriage.  And, I have fairly strong opinions about it (at least as far as decisions about my own life go...).  The ironic thing, that I even have difficulty explaining and articulating to myself is that while I don't believe in marriage... I also DO believe in gay marriage.  I guess if marriage exists it really must exist as an option for both gay people and straight people.  But, in a more ideal scenario from my perspective... marriage as an institution would not be necessary.  I do think it's mostly a patriarchal institution and aspects of the history of marriage are actually pretty scary/ disheartening.  And, I think in many places around the world today marriage is still used as an oppressive tool to suppress women.

It is because marriage was once simply an economic transaction, joining the strengths of two families.  Women have rarely had the iindependence men have had, so they were pretty much the bargaining chip, sold off to the highest/best bidder.  There's nothing more that can make you feel like a piece of property...but then of course, women were and still are in some places.

But recent changes in attitude and society have changed the marriage ceremony to more of a love-fest - at least in the West.  It is funny to pay attention to the ceremony and see what little vestiges still abound from earlier times.

The bride is 'given away', escorted by her family to show she's still a virgin, under the protection (control) of her family, the groom arrives ahead of time, alone with his friends, ready to take 'delivery'.  She has a veil, to hide her looks from evil eyes and to symbolize her modesty and chasteness, but then the groom lifts it to make sure they gave him the right woman.  The audience is asked if someone objects to the wedding (giving time for previous suitors or those who already had a downpayment on the bride to object), the woman changes her name, becoming part of his family/property.  Almost all weddings have bowls of nuts at the reception.  For fertility, doncha know, that's what she's there for, after all.  Single women support the bride, at the same time advertising their virtue and the fact that they're up for sale as well. 

If you want to own an house, and want your SO to help pay for/share it with you, I strongly suggest marriage.  Legal marriage gives you both the rights and protections of the law.  It's foolish to think of acquiring lots of assets and not get such legal protection.  Heck, the tax breaks alone are worth it to get married.  If you have children, again, a married person has the protection and rights of the law as far as custody and care and financial support of the children.

A movie star recently left her live-in lover of 10 years and ran off with her movie director and married him.  She took the 5 year old daughter she had with her old lover and moved 6000 miles away.  The old lover's rights to access his child were extremely limited because he never married the mother.  I felt sorry for him, but [shrug] there you are.

I have a great respect for marriage as an institution and the people who commit to it.  When you see one that works, it's a beautiful thing.  I don't want to be married, don't like the idea of it, except for those circumstances I mentioned, yet I find that I'm more respectful of marriage than most of the married people I know.  They marry for stupid or childish reasons, got married unthinkingly and then found themselves stuck, have unrealistic expectations and/or aren't mature or committed enough to stay in one.  Go figure.

[Brown Eyes]

OK, I was taking you literally.

I know. 

It is because marriage was once simply an economic transaction

I still think, even in modern American/western/industrialized, etc. cultures it's still an economic transaction in large measure... once you strip away the romantic aura that's built up around marriages/weddings.

And, yes, you're absolutely right that the traditional wedding ceremony as most/many of us have witnessed or experienced bears lots of wierd traces of upsetting old traditions.  Such as the concept of a the "woman exchange" where a woman is passed directly from the father to the groom as an exchange between two men.  The walk-down-the-aisle with the father figure definitely has some scary baggage to it.  My lesbian friends who recently got married in Massachusetts walked each other down the aisle... or walked together because there was no way to really reconcile this aspect of the ceremony with the gesture/principle of a lesbian marriage (even though both of their fathers were there in the audience and very supportive).

And, my Mother had to fight tooth and nail to have the word "obey" removed from her wedding vows.  She got married in the Methodist church in the early '70s.  Both my parents are feminists, both were major hippies in the '60s and early '70s and their marriage song was the Beatles "Her Comes the Sun"... so my family generally has pretty progressive views on marriage.  But, still it was a fight to remove some of the more objectionable aspects of the the ceremony itself.

[dot-matrix]

To you, is marriage...

A romantic ideal? Hardly..to many people go into it looking only at that first flush of heat and hearts and flowers.  That doesn't last very long and if that's all you had then you are sunk

An oppressive, patriarchal institution that should go the way of the dinosaurs? Only if you look at it superficially.  In my experience this argument is used often by commitment phobes

Mostly about social pressure? Maybe in some cultures but I can not see that as the case in the west any longer, not even in the case of unplanned pregnancy

A stuffy convention? The way some people do it

Necessary as an expression of true love between partners? No, it is not for everyone, but everyone who wants to be married should have that opportunity.

Irrelevant to the state of true love between partners? Yes

Something you aspire to... or dream about happening to you one day? To late.. but I never worried about it or had it on my personal to do list.  We just reached a point where we both liked the idea at the same time

Something you dread? No, but I had good role models.  My folks were married 52 years before my Mom died.  Sure they had their spats, but I always knew they loved each other and us.  I never heard either of my parents bad mouth the other or name call.  Likewise with both sets of Grandparents. I knew kids in school whose parents divorced, often there were public accusations of infidelity, drinking, etc...

Important in raising children? Not necessarily

Unnecessary to raising a happy, successful child?  Depends on the couple

Something that seems to provide personal security or stability, but not necessarily personal fulfillment?
Etc?  I agree with delluvia, it does provide a certain personal and financial stablity, in some instances like property, children and taxes, and in some cases security as well. In those instances it makes sense.  As for personal fulfillment, marriage is like any other relationship it is what you make of it. No matter what you have to work at it, and be committed to it and to each other..both of you

Are you currently married and have strong feelings about the institution of marriage?  Yes I'm married but I don't think it's for everyone.  I think marriage requires maturity and a commitment to making it work.  You have be over your self centered self absorbed years to be a good partner in a marriage and some people never get there.

Has Brokeback changed or impacted your views on marriage? No, #1 I've often thought that some men and women marry in haste for a wide variety of the wrong reasons and have cause to repent the decision at leisure. AND #2 I have always been a very vocal proponet for the legalization of gay marriage

[ifyoucantfixit]

        Contrary to my usual voice.  I have only two things to say on this question..The institution of marriage should
be available to whoever wants it..  And the reverse should also be available to others who dont want it...Both
ways should be the individuals own choice.  With no recriminations, or disdain by others.. Certainly not the law.

         Yes I have been married for over 50 years.  Yes I think it has its advantages for raising children..But that is
a two sided sword also..It totally depends on the marriage.. The fact of being married, gives you a certain amount
of stability and it provides you a helpmeet..Having said that..it also can be a problem for people trying to explore
themself..There is a certain amount of stifeling goes on..It all depends on what you place the most value on..
Your independance, or your partnership...?

[delalluvia]

        Contrary to my usual voice.  I have only two things to say on this question..The institution of marriage should
be available to whoever wants it..  And the reverse should also be available to others who dont want it...Both
ways should be the individuals own choice.  With no recriminations, or disdain by others.. Certainly not the law.

         Yes I have been married for over 50 years.  Yes I think it has its advantages for raising children..But that is
a two sided sword also..It totally depends on the marriage.. The fact of being married, gives you a certain amount
of stability and it provides you a helpmeet..Having said that..it also can be a problem for people trying to explore
themself..There is a certain amount of stifeling goes on..It all depends on what you place the most value on..
Your independance, or your partnership...?

Well said.  In other threads, I've been complaining about the differences between me and my sister, and I think one of the major issues between us is that my sister has never been alone in her life.  She went straight from home to college, college roommates, then boyfriend, lliving with said boyfriend, then fiance, then husband and after the divorce her child.  She has never been alone and as such, depends heavily on the resources in the relationships she defines as partnerships or other familial relationships.

I moved out of the home while still in college and have lived alone for the entire time, except for 1.5 years when I did live with a boyfriend or roommates. 

The same sharing and availability that she knew in marriage she expects from me.

On a recent trip, at night, I wanted to wind down in peace and quiet and read.  She wanted to watch TV and talk.

I consider her expectations presumptous, annoying and selfish.

e.g.  she recently changed jobs.  Lot more money, but she lost the company car and laptop.  She immediately expected me to open my home to her whenever she needs to use a computer now.

I expect her to use her extra money to buy her own as I don't want to see her as often as she needs to use my computer.   

[moremojo]

Marriage is an anachronism, a relic from a patriarchal era in which women (and children) were treated as chattel,  and families felt the need to forge alliances out of social or economic agendas. Marriage had nothing to do with romantic love until very recently in history. I am also totally opposed to married people getting benefits denied to unmarried folk--in fact, I'd like to see the state completely remove itself from the sanctioning of marriage (let religious institutions continue to endorse it if they choose).

I have nothing against two (or more) people entering into a form of marriage if that's what they want to do, but I don't see why I should be called upon to celebrate or applaud it. And I don't think they should get special treatment over those who do not marry.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Thank you Scott for being the first man to post, I will try and weigh in with my jumbuled thoughts.

I do not believe in marriage as something you just do. My parents married because it was what people did at a certain age and it also got him a deferment from the draft.

What I believe is, if you find someone that you love so much that you want to tell the world, shout it from the roof tops, and they feel the same way, then you are good candidates for marriage. To stand up in front of a bunch of people and tell one another the things that are in your heart, must be a powerful thing. I mean, I imagine it as a powerful, liberating and validating thing.

I also think it should be just as easy to get out of but I know better than to think that can happen. 

[Scott6373]

Simple answer:  No...so why am I?  Million bucks if someone can answer that

[Wishes]

Considering the house I grew up in, I'll say no. I found nothing good about it and certainly had no inclination to do that to myself.

I'm all for the freedom to marry and I of coarse believe gay and straight should be allowed to marry. With the divorce rate as it is in the U.S. (I believe >50%) it seems like a poor gamble. The only time I know actual peace is when I'm inside with the cats and no one can get to me.

[delalluvia]

Marriage is an anachronism, a relic from a patriarchal era in which women (and children) were treated as chattel,  and families felt the need to forge alliances out of social or economic agendas. Marriage had nothing to do with romantic love until very recently in history. I am also totally opposed to married people getting benefits denied to unmarried folk--in fact, I'd like to see the state completely remove itself from the sanctioning of marriage (let religious institutions continue to endorse it if they choose).

I have nothing against two (or more) people entering into a form of marriage if that's what they want to do, but I don't see why I should be called upon to celebrate or applaud it. And I don't think they should get special treatment over those who do not marry.

Oooooooh, I agree 100%!!!

Not sure why married couples are favored...I think it's simply because it's the social structure that the govt. placed its tax base on.  Supposedly a more stable group (because they will have children) and thus less likely to just pick up and go.  The govt. should cut single women and older single men the same privileges.  Not sure about single young men though.  History shows that it's usually the young single men who are the most destructive.  In earlier days, roping them into responsibilities young with marriage was a way of ameliorating their impact on society.

[Ellemeno]

In some ways, marriage is a lot easier than living alone.  In some ways, it's a lot harder.  I got married to someone I love, but there were definitely pragmatic reasons involved in the choice.  And I took his last name, even though I don't like his last name, because I wanted even that to show we are a family.  (I tried to get him to choose a new last name together with me, but he would have none of it.)

I would say more of my coupled friends are NOT married than are.  And I'm not sure that the differences I see between those relationships is because of that or not.  I'm glad we're married, but like I said, love a lot of people who don't want to be.

[delalluvia]

In some ways, marriage is a lot easier than living alone.  In some ways, it's a lot harder.  I got married to someone I love, but there were definitely pragmatic reasons involved in the choice.  And I took his last name, even though I don't like his last name, because I wanted even that to show we are a family.  (I tried to get him to choose a new last name together with me, but he would have none of it.)

I would say more of my coupled friends are NOT married than are.  And I'm not sure that the differences I see between those relationships is because of that or not.  I'm glad we're married, but like I said, love a lot of people who don't want to be.

Not to veer off on a tangent again, but once his idea of what 'showed' you 'are a family' didn't match yours  - he didn't think sharing the same name mattered - why did you bother to change yours?

[Lynne]

I voted 'It's complicated.'  If society is going to endorse marriage at all, then for me it goes without saying that it should be equally available without regard to sexual orientation, etc.  Like others have said, though, it's a patriarchal institution we inherited from the days when women were chattel and used to strengthen alliances and fortunes and had little to do with love.  I don't think married people should have preferential tax status over single people.

I think that the soaring divorce rate in this country has a lot of contributing factors and that it may indicate that marriage no longer serves us well as a society.  Two reasons that come to mind are the economic independence of women and the increased lifespan.  How realistic it is to think that two people who love each other at twenty will still feel that way at forty and sixty and eighty?  It seems equally likely that you'll grow together or grow apart - hence the coin toss probability.

I'm divorced and although it was as amicable as humanly possible, it still completely sucks to feel like you've 'failed' at something that was so important to you.  But looking back and trying to be objective, we didn't fail as individuals, we just bought into something that could not stay true for us.  Reminds me of Ennis saying 'Once burned...' - I cannot imagine ever being in that same place when I would try again.

Edit:  I recently attended the wedding of a good friend and it was terrific to see him so happy - deliriously happy, really.  I hope it lasts for them.

[opinionista]

I see marriage as an experience, not necessarily an obligation if that makes sense. I really see no difference between living with a partner and actually getting married (AKA, have a wedding and all that just to live together). Obviously there are legal differences but besides that, it is the same thing, IMO that is.

[CellarDweller]

as we can see from the posts in this thread, marriage is different things to different people.  Very interesting reading in this thread.

I've seen both sides of marriage in my life.

My mother's parents should never have been married.  They "had" to get married when grandpa got grandma pregnant with mom.  It was the mid 1940's, being single and pregnant was a big no-no.  There was no love between them, and they were both verbally and emotionally abusive to each other.  I saw that from my youngest years until the day they died.  Yelling at the top of their lungs at each other, calling each other "bitch", "bastard", "asshole", "whore".  It was not a pleasant enviornment.  They refused to divorce because of mom, and then because of the grandkids.  They made each other miserable until gram was put into the Alzheimer's facility.

The fact that my mom was able to rise above and get a major victory in her own life with her marriage to my dad makes me happy for her.  They've been married for 43 years.  Mom knew she had a "keeper" when dad said he was willing to wait until marriage for sex.  Mom knew what happened between her parents, and wasn't going to repeat their history.  Dad is 68, and mom is 64.  They still call each other pet names, hold hands out on the street when they walk, go out on dates, take vacations together, go dancing, and are very much in love.  Everything that my grandfather was not to my grandma, dad is to mom.

And I look forward to having that in my life as well.

[moremojo]

Chuck, that's a beautiful story you shared about your parents.

I should emphasize that when I speak of my dubious feelings regarding marriage, I'm speaking of the legal aspect of the institution, and not the sense of commitment that the institution theoretically enshrines. I'm all for people finding that special someone and seeking to forge a lifetime of commitment together, as long as that works for them. I'm really coming from the "it's just a piece of paper" angle when I speak of legal marriage--I do think that's both antiquated and unnecessary. But love itself never goes out of style. 

[loneleeb3]

I believe in marriage if it is entered into by two people who love each other and are comitted to it.
Still doesn't mean it will work out but if people are willing to work at it, marriage can work.
My Grandparents met in the 7th grade. They have been together ever since for over 75 years!
I think Marriage should be availble for all who want to be married gay or straight.